Woman's Hour - Listener Week: Widow's Fire, DNA discoveries, Decluttering backlash

Episode Date: August 21, 2024

Listener Week is when all the topics, interviews and discussions are chosen by YOU!As part of Listener Week we have been asked by widows to discuss one side effect of bereavement – hyper-arousal, and the term ‘Widow’s Fire’. Nuala McGovern explores these ideas with listener Lizzie, Stacey Heale, who has written a book – Now is Not the Time for Flowers - about her experience of being widowed, and also by the psychotherapist Lucy Beresford, who can shed some light on what might be going on.DNA testing for family ancestry is becoming more popular, with some companies having millions of users. A listener we are calling Sarah wrote: ‘I would like to hear about non-paternity events. This is when you discover that a parent is not your biological parent often via a DNA test. I made this discovery in my fifties. Increasing we are hearing about the impact of these discoveries but until it happens to you it is incomprehensible to understand. I would like to hear these issues explored.’ Nuala speaks to her and also to Laura House, genetic genealogist at Ancestry, and Lucy Beresford.A listener who tried decluttering and didn't like it asked us to look into 'the craze of removing any superfluous stuff in their house.' Nuala is joined by journalist Rebecca Reid and professional organiser Jenn Jordan to discuss if household streamlining has become an additional burden for women, or a helpful tool to stay on top of life admin.There is an iconic spot in Ireland called the Forty Foot and it's where people go to swim in Dublin Bay. If you watched the Apple TV series Bad Sisters, you might have seen it. But 50 years ago, women ‘weren’t allowed’ to swim there, so a group took to the waters in their bikinis – and had a less than welcome reaction from the men. Listener, journalist and feminist Rosita Sweetman suggested we discuss this on the programme. She joins Nuala, as does one of the women who mounted the invasion - activist, writer and poet, Mary Dorcey.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Our listener week continues where our programme ideas have been decided by you. And in a moment we'll discuss Widow's Fire. Now this is something I was previously unaware of, but a number of you asked us to explore it. It's about a compulsive desire for sexual gratification after bereavement. One listener said, it's taboo to talk about, but that woman's hour is a place that could.

So we will. Also today, are you a hoarder or a minimalist? One listener feels that the current craze for decluttering is just putting one more thing on our to-do list. So, is it time to bless the mess and love your stuff? You know, maybe you like being surrounded by your many belongings or does clutter drive you crazy and your decluttering will continue? I want to hear your experiences. I know you have them. Text the programme 84844 on social media.

We're at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. For WhatsApp or a voice note, a message, that is 0300... 03700100444. 03700100444. Also today, we're going to hear from a listener that we're calling Sarah, not her real

name, about how a DNA test changed her life. Sarah is calling for people holding family secrets to speak out. And I have just read this morning that the Irish journalist, author and trailblazing feminist Nel McCafferty has died at the age of 80. Nell was part of a group of women who staged what they called an invasion at a place called the Forty Foot in Dublin Bay, where women were banned from swimming. Now, coincidentally, we're going to hear all about that story of that invasion today. It was suggested by our listener Rosita. So all of that is coming up. But let us begin with the email that we received from a listener. Here's what she wrote. Several of my female friends have lost husbands in the

past couple of years. One mentioned to me widow's fire. She had never heard of it. I never have either. Have a Google. It's fascinating and according to my friend, a very real phenomenon. We would both be very interested to hear it discussed. Well then, another listener, Lizzie, also wrote to us saying, I would really like to hear something about a much ignored side effect of sudden bereavement, and that is the need for instant gratification. That's financial, emotional and sexual. And went on to say, I think it's one of the great taboos when speaking about death,

particularly the fact that one's libido goes through the roof. Well, to have a frank discussion about this, we have Lizzie with us. Good morning. Good morning. Welcome. Thank you. And also beside Lizzie is Stacey Heal, who's written about her experience of being widowed in the book, Now Is Not The Time For Flowers.

Good morning, Stacey. Good morning. And the psychotherapist, Lizzie Beresford, who can shed some light on what might be going on. Hello. So Lucy's going to stay with us for a couple of the items on today's programme. But let me start with you, Lizzie. And first, I'm very sorry for your loss. Your husband died suddenly 18 months ago.

How would you describe the feeling since then? I think it's changed, but there is a pretty constant, very high libido. It's, I've described it to my friends as being like having my pants on fire. So you feel sort of permanently kind of tingly. Now, sometimes it's worse than others, but it's pretty much there all the time. And in the beginning, certainly, it would wake me up at night. I would be getting out of bed first thing in the morning. And I found the only thing that could really get rid of it was either masturbation or some form of exercise because it makes you very restless.

So running, going to the gym, walking, etc. What did you think when you had these feelings? No, because, I mean, people talk about grief. They talk about, you know, isolation, various things. But I had never, in all my years interviewing people about grief, heard of this. Me neither. I hadn't got a clue what was going on. And in the beginning, I just thought I was being weird. I thought this was some sort of strange side effect. Well, of course it was. But not talked about. But not talked about. And eventually, I have to say, I didn't talk about it immediately because maybe I was a bit embarrassed, a bit

humiliated about it. Talked to some of my friends who haven't been bereaved and they said, we haven't got a clue. And then talked to a couple of people, one a man, one a woman, who said, oh yeah, that's the thing. I went through that. And then I started to think, well, why does nobody talk about this? Let me turn to Stacey. And I'm also sorry for your loss, but you devoted a chapter of your book, Now Is Not The Time For Flowers, to what is called Widows Fire. So Lizzie is not alone. No, far from it. I think when you are in the club that nobody wants to be part of, When you have these intimate conversations with other people who have lost their partners, and I would say also not just women, I think this is something

that affects men as well. I think you suddenly realise that these really strange, intense feelings that, very much like Lizzie said, you have no idea where they've come from, you didn't know they existed. Suddenly, you've got this group of people that you can talk to and say, yeah, me too, me too. And I felt that it was important in my book talking about my experience of being a carer for my husband who had terminal cancer and then becoming a widow. I really wanted to shine a light on something that people don't talk about because there are so many taboos around it. I think women talking about sex in general is not often a topic that people like to talk about. Mix death in with that as well. It's a really chaotic mixture that people find really quite affronting. And particularly, to be frank, a desire, an urge or a compulsion, as I think I've heard it described, for sex very soon after the partner has died.

Absolutely. And it's not even just about sex. I think it's way more nuanced than thinking of women as being these sudden horny teenagers who never loved their husbands, anything like that. It's, I think, depending on different situations. So mine is different to Lizzie's, for example. If you want to expand. Lizzie's husband died very very suddenly whereas my partner um was ill for a very long time and i think it's it is that when you are so up close to death illness hospitals i think you you feel this urge to feel alive and to experience touch and care and emotions that are not so horrific as grief. What were you looking for, Lizzie?

I was going to say that I think it's really important as well that perhaps one of the things that stops women talking about this is maybe it's because, you know, we're middle-aged and middle-aged women's sexuality is not something that's much discussed. But also because you're not fantasizing or fixated on your husband. It's not about that. For me, it's not triggered by a person or a place or any of those things. It's just this overarching sense of desire, which, again, I think makes it a bit more taboo. Because if I were thinking about my husband, that might be more acceptable.

But it absolutely isn't. It's just something that's, it's like an addiction. That's an interesting word to use. Did you feel you needed to indulge it or stop it? I'm just thinking. In one way, it's really funny. It is funny. We're all going to admit that.

It is quite funny. Maybe I'll say it is life of her that someone wants sex. And it's also quite inconvenient. Well, I'm just thinking, you said you were waking up at the middle of the night or it could happen in the middle of the day. Or when you're at work or you're buying a coffee or you're driving. You know, it is really, really tricky to navigate this sometimes. And I know it's not the worst thing that can happen to a person. And it is quite comedic. But you have to learn to manage your body, which as a 60 year old woman, I now am,

I never thought I would be in this situation feeling like a horny teenage boy, like you said. Lucy, I have to bring you in here. How do I follow that? Sorry But what you're hearing you know it's visceral I think and it's about the things that really matter about life and death and connection and feelings maybe not sure what to do with them And intimacy

Above all else it's about intimacy and connection There's a reason why there was a spike in births nine months after 9-11, that in the face of that enormous tragedy, people came together very urgently, very powerfully, without thought often, just to have those life affirming experiences to remind themselves that they were alive. And what's happened here, Lizzie and Stacey have both been very eloquent in talking about their own situations. They lost their partners in slightly different ways, but the end result is they're still alive. They're still vibrant with life and energy. And I was really struck by the fact that Lizzie talked, for example, about how masturbation was one of the ways through it.

Absolutely. I wish people would masturbate at least two or three times a week if not more I thought you were going to say day I thought it could be I'm not going to say no Lizzie is doing thumbs up because it is the perfect self-soother and you release those incredible feel-good hormones. It makes you feel much less, you kind of reduce your arousal. But you're doing that within your own parameters. You're saying this is what works for me and this is what I enjoy. And I think that's one of the reasons why it's so taboo. Women are not allowed to enjoy sex.

It's almost as if society has said that isn't possible. Obviously, I do spend my life promoting a very different message. But it is important to recognise that whatever age, it is something to be treasured, that you have that capacity for pleasure. I just saw a message come in. I'm so glad you're discussing Widow's Fire. I went through this 12 years ago.

I didn't know what it was and I was so ashamed that I told no one. Lizzie instead is bringing it to the world and bringing it to radio. But I know you talk, it can strike you at the most inopportune times. You were driving back from Cornwall one time? Oh, yeah. I was coming back from Cornwall, just sitting on the motorway. And I had to stop the car. I was kind of overwhelmed with desire. I mean, it's terribly embarrassing. It's fine if you're by yourself. But you know, if you're in a meeting or something, it's absolutely devastating. Now, I have to say it's not as bad as it once was. But I'm quite intrigued whether this is going to stay with me forever, whether this is how I now

am, or whether I'm going to go back to how I was I just don't know do you want to go back to how you were I don't really know I mean it's something very very vibrant about really being in touch with that side of you yeah um but just talking about how it can strike with you know the day-to-day quotidian whatever things we might go through when I was reading your notes it was like driving back from cornwall i couldn't wait to go home to masturbate i had been listening to today for yeah intellectual stimulation i mean i think one other thing i wanted to add was how we have to recognize that this is coming about at a time of great instability yes and there's something very powerful about the known and the way in which our relationships can be very anchoring for us.

But if you've lost someone in your life who was an anchor or a form of an anchor, no matter the quality of that, and you're leaving that behind, where are you going to find that? Where are you going to find not just the physical practicalities of skin-on-skin contact, but where am you going to find not just the physical practicalities of skin on skin contact, but where am I going to anchor myself in knowing that I'm loved and thought about and desired? And you can do that for yourself before you go into your next relationship. Because I'm thinking that you are, I would imagine, Lizzie, Stacey, you tell me, a vulnerable person in the sense of

potentially going into another relationship that, hands up, the hands are going up here. Go ahead, Stacey, you tell me. I think that is such an important point. It's this balancing act of realising that you are exceptionally vulnerable. It's not like maybe when you were in your teens, early 20s, where maybe you broke up with someone and you could go out and meet someone and it could be very easygoing. Whereas I think when you're older and there's been a death and maybe you have children and you have other responsibilities

and you're grieving and you have all sorts of emotions in the mix that idea of well how do I resolve how do I resolve this within me and obviously masturbation is an incredibly important part and again like you said something that women don't talk about very often. But the idea that about bringing someone into that is complicated. It's not as easy as kind of scratching that itch. And also, even though you were right to say that sometimes the widow's fire can be a widower's fire as well. Actually, there is still a bit of a taboo around women putting themselves first. They're so used to being the great daughter, the really dutiful partner, the perfect mother, if such a thing ever exists.

But how do you put yourself first and how important it is to be what I call self-ish, that it's really important to live your life that way? Lizzie, I think you're right about the vulnerability. I mean, anybody who thinks the Today programme is an aphrodisiac is clearly in a poor way. But I am worried that if I were to have a relationship in the future, I hate for word, I worry about whether my feelings are authentic or not. Yes, I understand that.

Whether it's just a product of this. Of lust. Yeah, exactly. Which, obviously, there's nothing wrong with that. Yes, but that is. And that's what I mean about whether I would return to my pre-bereavement state or not. I don't know. We have a lot of messages coming in on this. You have

touched a nerve, no pun intended. Widows fire. Widows fire. Urgently wanting to eat life. Unfortunately, there are many toxic and predatory men ready to pounce on your vulnerability. I speak from an awful experience. I'm sorry to hear that.

I don't have a name of that person who just got in touch. Here's another. I lost my husband suddenly 20 years ago when I was 50 and I still had children at home that were 21 and 19. It was so hard for them to understand why I needed a boyfriend. She puts that in inverted commas so soon after his death. So, you know, wanting a partner. I didn't understand it myself and told no one.

It's a relief in a way to hear it was normal. That's from 20 years ago. Here's another. I'm fascinated by this discussion. I suddenly lost my partner unexpectedly two years ago. I definitely experienced

this hyper arousal afterwards and was very confused by it. And it made me feel very guilty too. Did you feel guilty, Lizzie? I just feel you're so prepared to be open and communicate that maybe would it rid you of some of that guilt? I mean, you're obviously hearing it vindicated, if you know what I mean. I didn't feel guilty.

Even though I'm a Roman Catholic, I didn't feel guilty. I think it's all a part of kind of you have to redefine yourself when someone dies, obviously, and when someone dies very suddenly. And I was absolutely adamant I didn't want to be defined as that person who had been bereaved. But what I didn't know was this was going to be part and parcel of it. Now, I live with it. And as I say, it is quite comedic. But no, I don't feel guilty about it.

I can't do anything about it. I don't know because of these lovely women. It's natural. I think it might be good for our listeners to hear that. One more, Kerry, getting in touch on the subject of increased libido in bereavement. I've always found the same happens after a sudden breakup. I've always had an overwhelming desire to be loved, to feel alive and free and that comes as a result of the gap

that has appeared in your life I think you've just started the comments coming in. I want to thank all of you for being so open, so honest, so frank, so fun. Lizzie for bringing this story to us along with Stacey Heal who has written Now is Not the Time for Flowers and psychotherapist

Lucy Beresford who's going to stay with us for one of the items that is coming up a little later on as well. I wish you well. Now let me turn to an iconic spot. I'm very fond of this place. It's in Dublin. It's called the Forty Foot and it's where people go to swim in Dublin Bay. If you were a fan of that TV series, Bad Sisters, features heavily there. And people have been swimming in that bay, in the Irish Sea, all year round for centuries. But until 50 years ago, women were banned. So in 1974, this group of hardy women decided that needed to change.

They took to the waters in their togs, as we'd say, in the bikinis and the bathing suits and countering a very hostile reception from the men who usually swam there, many of them naked. The listener, journalist and feminist Rosita Sweetman suggested that we discuss this on today's programme.

I spoke with one of the women who mounted the invasion. That's activist, writer and poet Mary Dorsey. She was on the phone. So just listen out for that along with Rosita. And I started by asking Mary to explain what the 40 foot looks like for those who've never been there. Well, you can't see it from the road. It's very secluded.

You have to know where you're going. There's a path, a wide path that goes by us and goes by several houses. But if there weren't people swimming there, you wouldn't know it was there. There are big boulders, cliff-like boulders. And at that time, and for years, the entrance used to be barred by, there used to be two men, usually two middle-aged men, who put a table up to bar the entrance. And they pretended it was a private club and they had private access. So barricaded with a table, so to speak, with these two men that were there. But you did decide with other women in 1974, the day of the invasion, as I'll call it.

Tell me a little bit about the day and maybe also the events leading up to the invasion. Well, a few of us, as I say, got together. We knew each other, you know, through various different denos, I suppose. Anyway, we got together and we decided to do that. And it was actually a very dangerous and intimidating thing to do because there was a kind of voodoo around a place like that in Ireland at the time. Nobody disobeyed men and nobody went anywhere where there might be naked men. And the whole point of the 40 foot for men was that they could be naked. And many of them were priests. And the idea was that priests had to have somewhere they could swim without being tempted by female flesh. The female flesh made its way in the guise of I don't know 10-12

women down to the 40 foot and what did you encounter? So we had to push our way in and of course the two men standing this very narrow passageway immediately tried to stop us but because we were very forceful and nothing tried to stop us but because we were very forceful and nothing like this had ever happened before we were able to press past them and we were ready with our togs under our clothes and we just jumped straight into the water and of course we chose good swimmers. I was a very good swimmer and you have to be a good swimmer because there are huge waves there and very, very fast tide coming in competing

directions and a lot of people would be afraid to go in. When you went in that day your tugs as we say in Ireland your bathing suit was on underneath your clothes you whip it off you jump into the sea but what sort of reception did you get from the men? So on that day there was there was fury as there was every time but there was every time, but there was also amazement. They didn't know quite what to do about it. So we immediately got into an argument with them and a few of them,

which was a common thing for them to do. If they weren't already naked, they would strip off their togs and waggle their genitals, you know, and expect themselves to be terrified and take flight. But of course, it made no impression on us at all. So did I read, Sumpa, as well about towels being knotted and waved at you as well as genitalia?

Yes, yes, they did all kinds of things. They used to take handfuls of stones to throw at us. They would have bags of flour. I don't know why they chose flour, but they would have big bags of flour and empty them over our heads. They would push us physically. They would shout into our faces. But you nonetheless, with your cohorts, persevered. You weren't put off by the abuse. No, no. You see, we got abused everywhere we went in Ireland at that time. You know, we had to be super tough.

Every little protest we had drew extraordinary hostility and aggression. This was old patriarchal Ireland and nobody had stood up to us before. I want to turn to Rosita because Rosita, you brought this story to us. Why did you want to market? I feel in the same way the women like Mary, those incredibly brave women, they did the protest in order to bring publicity to the cause of feminism in a witty way and in a way that created a little drama and would start people talking about it. And what do you remember going for a dip? You did after the initial invasions. I mean, what was it like to go in the 70s, for example?

Well, like Mary said, men were extremely hostile. They were old men. You know, they weren't young men. So when the Irish Women United did the naked swim, there were, I'd say, a thousand men sitting on the rocks, desperate to get a glimpse of naked female flesh. Really? Ireland was so incredibly controlled by the church

and by the patriarchy at the time, in every aspect of women's lives was in that context that the invasion happened and had such an impact. Let me go back to you then, Mary. You formed an organisation with other women. It was called? Irish Women United. In 75, Irish Women United. Something like the Forty Foot could not be raised there. I mean, we mentioned it in the pub afterwards.

I understand. But we were doing something completely illegal. So it was a very, as I say, it was a small group. It was five of us originally. And probably I should say, and I only noticed, I think yesterday going through all the names, we were all gay. It was all the lesbians who did this. You said that it was illegal to go to the 40 foot? Yes, strictly

speaking, it was considered illegal. It was considered a private club. Okay, I understand. But I knew from my father that you couldn't shut off the foreshore. Nobody can own the foreshore. And that's what they trained to do. But nobody

had challenged this before. So it hadn't been established. Actually, in law, they didn't have the right to do what they were doing. So we knew that. But either they didn't know or they didn't care. So let me get to the very creative

invasion by land, air and sea. What happened? That probably happened a year after the first, the initial invasion. And we brought it up one day, a group of us together, probably sitting in a pub somewhere. And Sandra Stevens,

she went in with an umbrella. There was a diving board and the diving board is about 40 foot up. And she went in by the diving board and that was the aerial invasion. And others up and she went in by the diving board and that was the aerial invasion and others of us came running in by the land and that was the land invasion and I rode up with my dog from Coleymoor Harbour in my rowing boat

and so I jumped in from the boat and kept the boat at a distance so we had those, that was the three pronged thing and we got a lot of women together to do that on that day. And when did the men soften? Because I've often gone to the 40 foot and you know what I mean? I have to tip my hat and thank you women that went before me for that privilege and right. But of course, now it's everybody is there, families, kids, men, women, etc. When did they soften? Well, it was very gradual. It began, I remember, with men

would bring in their sons, their little sons, you know, which hasn't been the case before. And then they began to want to bring their daughters. And that they sort of scraped the daughters through. And very, very slowly through a process of evolution as everything else was changing around them,

the women began to come in. And that wouldn't have happened, I think, until the 80s, actual grown-up women coming in and coming with their children. So the men felt the old character, felt that it was ruined for them, it was pointless. Rosita, can you believe the change that you have seen from this moment in the 70s that we're talking about to Ireland in 2024? No, it's incredible.

Like, it's absolutely incredible. Like, I have a daughter and a son and just seeing how they live in modern Ireland, it's completely different. And when I did my book on feminism, I think it was four years ago, I kept saying, was that really like... I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. That mum. that mum and it it was like i think it's wonderful the way feminism has come back for young women but it needs to go like there's a whole new wave needs to happen to address directly violence against women that was rosita sweetman uh ending conversation, we also heard from the writer and poet Mary Dorsey. Thanks, Rosita, for bringing that topic to our attention. But, you know, since I spoke to them,

we had news this morning that one of the founders of the Irish women's liberation movement and part of that original group of women, Nell McCafferty, has died. She was a journalist and a feminist. She was a key figure in the fight for women's rights and against issues like poverty and social injustices in Ireland during the late 60s and 70s.

And also, of course, as we were hearing, taking part in that 40-foot invasion alongside Mary Dorsey. You are listening to Woman's Hour. You can text us 84844 or at BBC Woman's Hour on social media or email us through our website. I just want to read a couple of the messages that continue to come in. This is from Jenny.

I've just heard your piece about libido after the death of a husband. It has been such a revelation. I felt so guilty and just couldn't understand why, and was indeed vulnerable and a prey to men. I've since married again, happily, but thank you for relieving me of my guilt. Tabitha, I can confirm that widow horniness is a thing. I was

widowed in May 2015 at the age of 42 and the following year I went through what my daughter now describes as my teenage years. My sex drive went through the roof. I eventually remarried in 2017 and it has made the issue far less problematic. Now to another area that a listener suggested. I'm calling this listener Sarah. It's not her real name, but here's what she wrote. I would like to hear about non-paternity events. This is when you discover that a father is not your biological father, often via a DNA test. I made this discovery in my 50s. Increasingly, we're hearing about the impact of these discoveries, but until it happens to you, it is incomprehensible to understand. I'd like to hear these issues explored. I got to speak

to her and her words are now voiced by an actor. I had some questions, maybe doubts about my paternity. One or two things throughout my life hadn't quite added up. And I, I just, I got to that point that I needed to know one way or the other. Also, recently, I've been kind of thinking quite a lot about my childhood and, you know, being a young adult and various things that I think kind of impacted upon me as I got older. It was almost like a sixth sense. It's quite a brave step to take, isn't it? Yeah. Yes, it is. But I did think about it. I didn't just do it on a whim. I did think about the implications, however. And I suppose this is why I kind of wanted to talk about it. Some of

the implications, I literally had no idea. You think you're going to know. Okay, if I found out this then, but you don't. It's kind of impossible, isn't it, to imagine what we will feel like when something monumental happens. When you're looking into this, the kind of message that you often read is, be prepared that you might find unexpected results. That's what's written on a lot of these websites. That's what a lot of people say. And I'm going, yeah, I'm prepared to find some unexpected results. But what you don't realise is if you find unexpected results where there have been secrets, there will have been people who have kept those secrets

and those people might be your nearest and dearest. That's the hard bit. That's the hard bit, yeah. And I can see you obviously feel quite emotional about that particular aspect of it. Because you found out, well, why don't I get you to tell our listeners what you found out with the DNA test? So I found out that the man who I'd been led to believe was my father, the man on my birth certificate, was not my biological father. And I was also able to find out, which I didn't expect to, but I did,

I worked out who it was. And that was all through DNA testing? Yes, I was flawed, absolutely flawed. I did speak to my mum. What did your mother tell you when you confronted her? She confirmed what I had found out, the identity of my biological father, and she confirmed, yes, she did have a relationship with him. My biological father did know, which breaks my heart because I don't know if he was even wondering about me and my

mum told me that my dad didn't know I'm not sure I believe her that is because of all the things I'd felt over over well my life really but since then it's it's been really really difficult because they're the ramifications and the consequences I suppose of of not knowing until you are the age that you are but it's also kind of empowering that suddenly I've got this clarity that I didn't have before the confusion and the why do I feel this way and it's kind of a massive light bulb moment, not only knowing that my father wasn't who I thought it was, but then knowing who it was, a big light bulb moment. So that part of it is great, is really positive. And I have no regrets in doing it at all, because I now can go, this is who I am.

Because your biological father was somebody you had encountered in your life, earlier in your life. Yes, very young, though I have no memory. But then looking back on your life now with the father who raised you, did you need to re-evaluate all that? I'm just wondering about how you see yourself, your identity, who you are. You start looking at everything that's happened to you through a new lens and each time it happens, it's like a kick in the teeth. I'm sorry, Sarah, I know this is very difficult and using that phrase, a kick in the teeth is so visceral. And you say it's something that happens again and again.

That's really tough. I think your brain just doesn't allow you to have it all at the same time because that would be utterly overwhelming. So things kind of crop up and, you know, you kind of think, oh, my word, the day I got married, there were numerous people in the congregation who knew the man walking down the aisle with me was not my father. I then think, hang on a minute. I was denied the ability to ever know him. And then you kind of think, so are my children.

They were denied the opportunity to know their grandfather and I was being denied the opportunity to meet my grandparents and my children might even have cousins they don't know about and I might even have siblings and all of this stuff just comes crashing down on you when you realise that people denied you that opportunity. And those people are your family. It's really, really hard. I can understand that. And these people that, close family members, that knew that the man who was raising you was not your biological father,

which is something to come to terms with. But I suppose what I'm hearing from you as well is really anger and a lack of trust now. We didn't touch on your siblings, Sarah, but do you want to talk about what that impact has been? Really, really difficult at the moment. Yeah. Yeah. But I do actually understand the decisions that were made at the time. And I do understand the choices that they made at the time. And I do understand the choices that they made. They weren't the right choices. They weren't the right choices, but I do

kind of understand them. But yeah, the trust, gone, absolutely gone. But as I said, in a weird way, it's also liberating because I can just go, right, now I can be who I am. Just so many competing emotions there, as you describe it so well, Sarah. I have a couple of questions, if that's okay. The man who was your biological father, is he still alive? No. No, he's died. And the man who raised you? No. No, either. So it in a way makes it even more difficult to resolve, perhaps.

I don't know if it makes it more difficult or actually because those choices are not there. I don't have to make them. Yeah, true. You can't kind of even make those leaps. It's pointless. You mentioned that the trust is gone with close family members that includes your mum yes do you think there's a way to rebuild that relationship after this revelation the only way that I can see a relationship going forward with my mum at the

moment is by not talking about it because she upsets me so much and the subject upsets her that's not ideal but she she needs to know or she needs to think that I'm okay because that's what she's believed for the whole of her life that she's she's done the right thing and it's too late now for her to consider the possibility that she didn't. Do you think that's possible? To have that relationship where you don't speak about it? It's that or nothing. And I think it will have to be.

Are you getting support, Sarah, to work through all of these emotions? I think that's one of the things that I wanted to I suppose highlight there isn't any and I don't know why there would be I mean why would there be but I suppose I think about people who are perhaps adopted and who were looking for their adopted family I don't know what that's like I kind of assume that there may be people, intermediaries or agencies who support people doing that. I am literally doing this on my own. I do have support in that I've got a lot of friends

who've been fabulous, you know. I'm glad to hear it. Yeah, so they're there. I'm not on my own. I feel on my own because it's so weird the actual people who you would turn to in times of crisis are not there because they're caught up in the cover-up for want of a better term yeah yeah and you mentioned Sarah part it, why you were bringing it to us, is that lack of support that is not there when you discover something as, I suppose, life-changing as this.

Yeah. Yes, that was one aspect. But I'm not sitting here going there should be support. It's more just letting people know that the consequences can be far greater reaching than I think perhaps you realize but also I think more importantly to the people who are keeping the secrets think about talking think about having that difficult conversation because people like me are finding out the truth they are able to find out the truth. And there's going to be more and more of us. Things have changed socially and with technology. And it's

never too late to have those difficult conversations. It feels like the burden is given to me and it's not mine to carry. A listener, I am calling Sarah. Thanks so much to her for speaking to us candidly about her experience. Still with me is psychotherapist Lucy Beresford and we're also joined by genetic genealogist Laura House from Ancestry, one of the UK's largest family history sites.

You might have heard of other sites also like 23andMe or MyHeritage or LivingDNA. Lucy, what struck you listening? It's very, very compelling, very powerful, I thought. It's a very powerful story, but there's a lot of endings there, a lot of losses. And two main things stand out. The first is discovering the fact that you thought one thing,

but something else is the case, and how that impacts on your own identity and your sense of self. That's going to be very emotional for people anyway. But then to discover the secondary issue, which is that other people did know that you were kept in the dark, and they had this secret. And that puts you at a disadvantage and you're having to play catch up. And I think the problem with those two issues blending together is that you almost don't have anyone to turn to.

The people that you might have turned to are the very people who have put you in this really awkward position. So what do you do with it? Well, it's definitely going to take time and there are ways in which, as Sarah, the lady that you're calling Sarah, said, well, I might be able maybe therapeutically or with a trusted friend, to get to the point where it doesn't affect your identity so that you rewrite your narrative,

recreate that narrative for yourself, so that it's less about the losses and more about the gains. Laura, let me turn to you. You hold 25 million DNA samples on your database, selling millions of DNA kits to customers. You offer a direct service to people who want to make discoveries of their families. How common is it that people want to know about parents? So in my line of work, I work for the Research Division of Ancestry. So we have a team of genealogists who do these kinds of projects. And my particular specialism is that I work with people who have unknown parentage. So people who are adopted or who have recently discovered that the man who

raised them is not their father, and they want to find their biological father. So to me, of course, it's incredibly common, because I work with this every single day. And what really strikes me about Sarah's story is her courage in taking control of her story. She felt that something was wrong and she did something about it and she discovered the truth in a way that literally was not possible 25 years ago because

the technology just didn't exist. But I suppose with that great knowledge comes great risk and a number of things struck me. For example there is no support system not that she expected one but it is something huge that she's finding from these tests today i was looking up other tests and on one you know international newspaper you know dna tests that were kind of comparing various ones it was under games and hobbies do you think people

understand the changes that they may be approaching in their life by taking one of these tests? Something I'm very passionate about is making sure that the public is educated, not just about the risks of taking a DNA test that you might make unexpected discoveries, but also about the potential of DNA testing to help you to make these discoveries. Because there are so many people out there who have unknown parentage who say, you know, oh, my, my mom won't tell me my father's name. So there's nothing I can do. There's just nothing I can do. And that's just not true. But yeah, we definitely need more awareness of both sides of it. The what might happen when you take a test and you're not ready? Or what might happen? You know, if you take a test and you want to make those discoveries because I suppose also part of the conversation needs to be other people that could be affected

for example if there was no matches for Sarah on that DNA website or database she would be none the wiser but somebody has put up a you know, which meant eventually Sarah has this revelation. What do you think, Lucy, as you look at this, it's such a modern issue. Well, the issue around who am I and where do I come from and do I feel I fit in is as old as time. It's just, as Laura said, you know, the technology is helping people. I think the really interesting thing is that we all tell ourselves stories about ourselves and about each other in order to find our place in the world. We're doing that from the very beginning and our families do that as well. She's the clever one.

He's the sporty one. He's the black sheep of the family or whatever it might be. And so much of that narrative can be within your control. When you find this information, Sarah herself said it, she doesn't regret doing it because even though it's opened up a Pandora's box in many other ways, she now knows a little bit more about herself and she can therefore make some choices about the narrative that she tells herself. And fundamentally, that's all that therapy really is. It's about helping clients shape their narrative, rewrite those old scripts and limiting beliefs. And Sarah is a living example of that. Do you think, Laura, when people come to you, are they aware of all the other people that they could be affecting by taking a test,

even if it's on a whim under games and hobbies? I think, yeah, I think that there is a sense that this is when you take a test, this is my journey. I'm going on. Yes, that's what I mean. Yeah, that's exactly. It's really important that people have these conversations with their families. You know, many of my clients are older, so their parents are no longer around, which can also make it really complicated because you can't ask all those important questions. But if you are taking a DNA test and your parents are still around, let them know you're taking the test and give them the opportunity to do the right thing. If there is something to tell, then they can tell you.

Which is really at the heart of why Sarah came to us, I think, is that she feels if there is somebody harbouring a secret to come clean. She felt even if it was a few years ago that her mum came to her, yes, it would be shattering, but it wouldn't have been as bad as the way she feels that she found out. I'm very conflicted about that. I think it's hard to expect other people to do our bidding all the time, that actually if someone has a secret,

there must be a really good reason why they kept that secret. All of those reasons might be flawed and inappropriate, but in a way that's their right to keep their secret about their life. And what I have worked with is people who, whatever it is, they've either through an adoption agency, they've found something or they've found information, and then they go to the new people. Hey, I'm your child or I'm your sibling.

And you're throwing into other people's lives a lot of confusion and a lot of distress sometimes. So I think it's very important to own your own narrative and to own your own journey, but to be really compassionate about the other people who've had to make similar choices it's where their journey yeah and where it intersects of course is where it gets very thorny a couple of messages coming in on this a lot of messages coming in on every item we've done today but let's talk about this one hearing sarah talk i can wholly relate to the complicated

feelings you have when a large part of your life is centered around a secret in 2020 shortly after my mum died and after having grown up as an only child, I found out I had six siblings. I'd always known I was adopted, but I never knew about my siblings. It was a watershed moment in my life and something I now have to confront and deal with every day.

Although I have found them and have been welcomed, Sarah is right, no one can prepare you for feeling so alone and carrying a burden that few understand. Here's another.

I was in the position of knowing that a cousin had not been told the truth of Here's another. I was in the position of knowing that a cousin had not been told the truth of her paternity. I felt awful about this and felt angry towards her mother and the other close relatives around who knew the secret. This cousin lived overseas, so I hardly ever saw them. But if I had seen her more often, I don't know how I would have dealt with the issue.

She was devastated when she found out after her mother's death. I wish I had the courage to reach out to her, but I feared the consequences. But I think you've kind of talked about that, Lucy, you know, in the sense that secrets are secrets for some, for a reason. But I know what Sarah would have liked to have happened in that particular instance. Back to you, Laura. I imagine this is happening a lot, that you provide them with the news that their dad isn't their dad. I imagine there's not one reaction. It's a very interesting phenomenon because yes, sometimes we have traditional genealogy clients who are just looking for a family tree.

And then when we look at the DNA results, we discover that perhaps a parent or a grandparent is not a biological relative. And interestingly, the most common response is, oh, I always felt something wasn't quite right. I always felt like a little bit of an outsider and like I didn't fit in and I didn't really look like my dad. And he treats me differently. Yeah. And so often it brings, it's a shock. It's always a shock, but it often brings a lot of closure as well lucy or certainly clarity that this idea of i my gut instinct was right and that is an amazing feeling when you suddenly realize that you could trust yourself even if you can't trust others that that sense of empowerment that actually i i did have that hunch must be really revelatory yeah and sarah used that word as well empowered and that's what's incredible about this technology is that people can lie to you and they can

falsify documents, birth certificate, adoption records, but they can never take away your DNA and they can't take away the information in your DNA. And what we have now is the ability to use that information to access our identities, our personal identity and history. And we never had that before. I think in an era of AI and misinformation, that's going to be even more valid. It's not going to be the last time we talk about this. Lucy Beresford, thank you so much, psychotherapist

and also the genetic genealogist, Laura House from Ancestry. Really appreciate you both coming in. To Woman's Hour, I just leave on this message. I was an egg donor for a family member over 20 years ago the young person I assume is my biological child has never been told that was not my decision

I live in fear of home DNA kits as disclosure of this secret would blow many lives apart I want to turn to the next item that a listener brought us on listener week and it's about decluttering. Let me read.

I think every woman in this country has been subjected to the craze of removing superfluous stuff in their house. I tried the suggestion of having a capsule wardrobe of 30 items. I hated it. Thank God I didn't throw my clothes away. How do I know what I want to wear each day? I'm too cowardly to speak with my friends about this, as I know they think I'm messy and untidy.

Why am I so influenced by decluttering? And why do I feel I need to comply? Good questions. Well, we have the journalist Rebecca Reid and professional organiser Jen Jordan to answer. Let me start with you, Rebecca, because you've been thinking about this. I believe you can empathise with our listener who doesn't want to get rid of her stuff, but she did end up

doing some of it somehow. I hard relate and I particularly relate to this idea that you're somehow failing if you don't own like one stripy t-shirt, one pair of ballet pumps. And it's a kind of, I don't know whether it's like women's magazines from the noughties or whether it's like social media but there is this sense that there's like a morality to owning as little as possible and I've definitely had these like binges of like getting rid of all of my stuff and throwing it all away and I'm a clean person I'm a good person now and I every time I've regretted it not least because I remember being told if something doesn't fit you right now throw it away because it'll never fit and then I did that after I just had a baby I lost 40 pounds and then I didn't have any clothes one day where I thought I could win at life by owning less stuff

so I really really relate to this woman I think if she wants to be friends we can go shopping and buy more stuff why not you know what actually, Rebecca, reading the papers, yes, bang in the middle of one of the sections was what you need in your wardrobe now. And it was about 10 items, you know, which I probably have 10 times over, if we're completely honest. I am a woman. Don't hoard other things, but I do hoard clothes. Let me bring you in, Jen. You work on decluttering. Do you think everybody needs to declutter? Or is it just a certain personality type that gets joy out of it? I think everyone can benefit from decluttering. I don't think everyone needs a capsule wardrobe. I think that's what we need to have. Lots of

people like lots of options when they're getting ready. I've certainly got clients that have got three enormous wardrobes and I wouldn't take those away from them because they're flamboyant and they like their stuff. I do probably have capsule-ish wardrobe. It would horrify some people. It would make them very sad. But I used to have a lot of stuff myself, so I completely empathise with this. I think it's almost like the wellness craze of like, you are good if you have less. And certainly when I was on the path to having less, minimalism made me feel terrible. Anything I kept felt wrong. And yeah, what's behind that, though? Yeah, what is behind that?

I think it's just this need for perfection. And also this kind of, especially with the minimalist thing, it's like this push to purge. I think there's the same with clean eating. I think there's a trend there to push us to be these kind of perfect people. Well, you know, I put it out at the beginning of the programme and there's been a number of comments that have come in. Let me run through a few. Alison, while focusing on what's most important to me, I discovered that my spending habits also changed and the tide of income and clutter was finally stemmed. Ten years on, I have more time, more money, more peace. And when a friend recently visited, she said your house has a calm ambience, much like you.

OK, so she is loving it. Here's another. Decluttering as a precursor to putting our house on the market. My husband said I should understand how hard this was for him as we made over 40 visits to the amenity site and the local charity shops. I said it must be hard as he has carried this clutter for over 40 years from one loft to the next. He's now looking forward to having a new home to refill. But what about that, Rebecca? Because we do move, some of us more than others,

and those boxes they come with. But what about that, Rebecca? Because we do move, some of us more than others. And those boxes they come with. Surely there must be some stuff that needs to go. Yeah. And I'm like millennial Gen Z border. So I moved every and I live in London. So I moved every year on the dot for nine years. And there are boxes that are still under my bed. I now have a child and I have been divorced and bought a house and done a lot of that stuff all of which should prompt a purge and no there are still boxes under my bed that are from when I was 22 or 23 of um a play suit from like a fast fashion brand that cost about 10 pounds that doesn't fit and didn't look nice at the time but it's a it's a love letter to the girl who bought that and did look right in it one day and all of this stuff every single time I open it up there's a story there's a love letter to the girl who bought that and did look right in it one day. And all of this stuff, every single time I open it up, there's a story, there's a connection.

Every single, like, every time I try and get rid of my daughter's baby clothes, I find myself sobbing. I'm very connected to stuff. And I want those things. And I think some people find clutter oppressive, in which case, absolutely get rid of it. But for me, they're like little passports back to a life that I don't have anymore. And I get value from them in that sense. There was tips, Jen, that you had, you know, getting rid of 30 things in 30 days.

But what sort of things? Oh, I'm worse than that. I'm afraid it's 100 things. Oh, excuse me. But my top tip... Rebecca is horrified. Go on. And Rebecca, call me about that box in your bed please

but my top tip is just start with toiletries and food eating and using things counts so that 100 can get really quickly i'm telling you day one and day two you can using things is actually genius it absolutely counts and you know we've all got those moisturizers we bought and then oh i've got another one and i've got a shower gel that's got a little bit they all count and suddenly you can kind of get 30 in six days put things in a beauty um box in boots they they do kind of collections or um a woman's charity or a food um bank they take things just slowly. My whole thing is if you're doing it yourself,

just do it slowly. If I'm coming to your house, I'm doing six hours. That's too much to do on your own. It's you need guidance, you need expertise, you need enthusiasm. You're just going to end up crying and shoving it all back in a cupboard if you start doing six hours yourself.

I do find the idea that I don't have to throw it away, that I can use it or give it to somebody or send it to somebody a bit easier. That's like the gentle way. Listen- I'm all about the gentle. I'm all about the gentle.

Rebecca Reid, journalist, professional organiser, Jen Jordan. Don't think they're going to agree on all parts, but maybe we've got a little bit of the Venn diagram there. Thanks so much for joining us on Women's Hour. Lots of people getting in touch about that as well.

I do want to let you know tomorrow's programme, How Did Women Cope with Periods Throughout the Ages? That's what one listener has asked us to look into. We'll also be discussing how you can leave a legacy when you don't have children. That'll be Anita with you tomorrow. Just want to read this quick one. A male who has been listening who

also felt widower's fire and finally has released the guilt after 23 years. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, lovely listeners. I know, I know you're busy. Well, let me help you, my friends, with my brand new Friday night comedy, Catherine Bohart, TLDR. Too long, didn't read. I'll be going beyond the headlines to get to the bottom of one big news story each week. You know that story that is huge and constantly being discussed, but you miss the details

and now it feels like it's too late to ask? Yeah, that one. I'll be speaking to people who know what they're talking about, then we can pretend we know what we're talking about when it comes up at a family dinner. So join me for Catherine Bowhart TLDR, a new Friday night comedy from Radio 4 available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

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The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.