Woman's Hour - Listener Week: Women and trades, Afghanistan, Stealthing, Dumping a friend

Episode Date: August 23, 2021

A recent survey revealed that tradespeople are £35,000 better off than university graduates. But only 14.5% of the construction workforce as a whole is female, and that drops to just 2% when it comes to skilled manual trades, according to CITB figures. Barbara Marshfield has been a painter and decorator for 25 years, and got in touch. She joins Emma to discuss, along with Steph Leese who has her own successful business, and Fiona Sharp, Social Value Director for Procure Plus.Reports from this morning and over the weekend reveal a desperate situation for many women and children in Afghanistan trying to flee. We've heard a lot, and seen pictures of the male British troops who have and are currently serving on the ground in Afghanistan. But what about the women? How differently do women approach these situations... Alice Bromage served in Afghanistan as a Major. She did 2 tours, and left in 2016. In the past few months, a number of women have spoken out about stealthing -a form of sexual violence that involves non-consensual condom removal. One listener wants to know if there is a male equivalent, and if not, how the gender of a victim impacts the way society views rape. Emma is joined by the barrister Harriet Johnson and Dr Siobhan Weare, Senior Lecturer at the Lancaster University Law School who has researched criminal justice and male survivors of sexual violence.The breakdown of romantic relationships can have a significant impact on us - but so too can the breakdown of friendships, sometimes being even more painful. Listener Melanie joins us to discuss her experience of losing a friendship, as does journalist and writer, Rhiannon Lucy Cosslett and relationship expert and author, Liz Pryor. Presented by Emma Barnett Produced by Frankie Tobi

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to not just another week, but Listener Week here on Woman's Hour. If it's your first time, you're not alone. It's my first one too. Essentially, you're in charge. What you want to hear about, questions you would like answering, who you would like to answer them, I will do my very best. We all will hear the team working very hard on Woman's Hour. Usually, you and your experiences and views imbue the whole programme in a reactive sense, texts and emails in response to the discussions that you hear.

But this is your week to tell me and all of the team what you want to hear proactively. There is still time, still airtime up for grabs as we go through your messages and alight upon themes and strong ideas and questions. So the number you need to get in touch to share what you would like to be covered, 84844 is the number to text. Social media at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website. But let's get started with our first programme of Listener Week. On today's programme, we're going to hear from a female plasterer and female decorator after a listener request to sell such a line of work to more women and girls.

We're also going to be hearing from a lawyer, an academic, about women behaving very badly in terms of consent. Immoral, yes, but are their actions illegal? We shall discuss. And female friendship. This is the one I think many of you will be able to relate to. Already we've got even more messages about this. Have you ever been dumped by a friend? Several of you have written in to ask about how to handle such a situation after it's happened to you, describing huge levels of pain and shame. I always say that the biggest breakup of my life actually wasn't with a romantic partner, but with a friend. She had really been the love of my life and then it was over. It is hugely taboo. How have you coped? How do you cope? A message I've just seen come in saying this has happened during lockdown. Sometimes it is the only way and it is healthier for all concerned, but in other circumstances, being dumped by a friend is brutal and it comes without any form of explanation. Have you done it? Have you been dumped? How have you coped? Let's get

into female friendship. 84844 is the number you need to message. And again, get in touch via the website or on social media at BBC Women's Hour. But first, many of you have been in touch all last week going into this week regarding our coverage of what's happening to women and girls in Afghanistan. For instance, Claire emailed to say, I just want to say a big thank you for the continued attention to the plight of women in Afghanistan. Please keep this up. Everything you do about the plight of the women in Afghanistan at the moment is very, very important to women around the world. Elaine added, we need a resistance group of warrior women, army trained, to go in and bring out these Afghan women.

Well, I'll be talking to someone who was in the army and was on the ground in Afghanistan for this country very shortly. But first, have a listen to this. Giza Yari, a civil servant and leading campaigner for women's rights in Afghanistan, was evacuated from Kabul last week after going into hiding. She's told the BBC that she believed women in the country should still, quote, fight for the right to work. My message would be that, yes, I left the country,

but I'm going to come back. I think a lot of girls and the young generation who left the country are coming back to unite with their voice and continue our activism and continue the activism for the 20 years of gain we have had. I think I do ask all the government employees, the women, that they should persistently fight for the right to work. And I know a lot of them are rejected, or all of them are rejected from the government in the past two or three days. Taliban didn't allow them to enter their offices, but we have to fight together.

If possible, if we can continue our educations, that is what I'm telling them, that we have to internally and physically should have the capability to fight and continue our activism. Well, there have been reports of a firefight at Kabul airport this morning. The armed force ministers told the BBC earlier that no British soldiers were involved. There have been chaotic scenes outside Kabul's airport every day since all of this began

as desperate crowds of Afghans and Western nationals try to flee the country. Well, this time last week, I spoke to Pashtana Durrani. Pashtana is a teacher, founder and executive director of Learn Afghanistan, a charity focused on education, and she's still on the ground in Afghanistan. One week on, Pashtana, how are you, first of all? I am trying to cope up with the situation, but yeah. And I know last week when we spoke you you talked about the fact you are staying you couldn't disclose and i certainly wouldn't want you to now where you were

but you are going to stay yeah i am still here in the same place so yeah what what is the situation where you are uh what's the situation on the ground things are a bit calmer but again it's a village so you you can't complain a lot uh when you talk about cities those are the ones right now at risk and then at the same time from the province that i come there are a lot of target killings right now happening i mean like just imagine that anybody can come inside your house without a warrant the taliban are doing house searches anywhere and everywhere. So it's like, you know, all this patrolling is costing them a lot. And then at the same time, the schools are not open.

That's a big disappointment because they promise and they keep on promising it. But the schools haven't opened in my area. And apart from that, the banks are not open. The public administration is all paralyzed our electricity is there and then it's not in 24 hours we barely see it and then the same goes for internet it's always messy and the communication is not good so overall the standard of life is going very down from one week the schools aren't open at all or to girls? The schools aren't open at all and especially the girls schools they like they haven't even asked the principals to come and

plan the year starting or the academic year opening and that happened for the boys school in Kandahar but the, they haven't been invited yet. So it's pretty much negligence and they don't want to open it up. On that point, since we spoke, there was that press conference, the Taliban press conference at the beginning of last week. And there has been much made of the pledge from that spokesman to women, that they will be able to continue to live, to work, to be educated at a level that perhaps they had been used to or not. There's a lot of debate about what he meant. What do you take from that?

And what are the women that you're talking to feel from that? See, other women would rather not comment, but wait for what they have to say in the future and what are their actions. Because schools are not open. That's a practical thing that you can just understand and get from, right? And then at the same time, the jobs for women, they like teaching. Even that's not even happening right now. So you can understand that even under the Sharia law, his terms were very vague and he was just literally lying about it.

So in terms of that, you're waiting for the actions as opposed to the words? I'm not waiting for actions right now. I'm just, I know that they won't open. And even if they open, there will be a lot of policing of the curriculum. And they'll go on to the old curriculum where everything is terrorized and made sure that everything is violent starting from a b c until z even if english is allowed to be taught because it's an infidel language for them so let's see what happens but other than that i know in my heart that it's not happening is that is there fear at the moment about this it's less fear more worrisome because people stayed back not all the whole country can get onto

that plane and there are a lot of people who don't even know that like you know how to get to airport what is airport blah blah blah and how to get in touch with someone or how to become a refugee again in their life so it's not happening a majority of the people don't want to flee don't want to abandon their livelihoods at home and that's the reason that they are so worried about what will happen next because if you're staying put and the banks are not open so that's out of the window you don't have your electricity no communications apart from that and there are things that they might even shut down the internet. So all these challenges are coming up now and again and again.

So it's less fear, more worry about what the future holds. And your plan is to stay, just to clarify? For now, yes. For now. Well, thank you for talking to us today. I hope we can talk again. Pashtana Durrani there speaking about her experience at the moment and what she's seeing and hearing so and perhaps also some of the perspectives that they may have at the moment about this, even if they're not there. That would include my next guest, Alice Bromwich, who served in Afghanistan as a major. She did two tours and left in 2016. Good morning. Good morning. How are you? Well, I wanted to get from you your thoughts on the

current situation with your experience of being in Afghanistan? I think your opening talking about female friendship actually probably encapsulates it. There is an amazing network of military women in the UK who I know are being lent on really, really hard, as are some of our male colleagues, by all the women we've trained and worked alongside, and men I hasten to add, in Afghanistan, who are desperately trying to support those who are still in country to be able to have the right paperwork, to know which safe houses to go to, to have points of contact to try and enable them to evacuate. And yeah, I think it's that next level of where a friendship builds trust and as two nations we have built a lot of trust between the individuals. So just to clarify are you talking about are you talking about people that the British military and specifically of course

women in this instance trained to to fight? So like Sandhur, and I know you covered the Sandhurst in the sand, I think last week. So CAGA has been running since 2010, and that's trained hundreds of junior officers for the Afghan army. Within that, we also trained the instructors. So everything from senior NCO, so sergeant level, all the way through to captains, I believe. And I didn't train there, I hasten to add, but I've spoken to peers who have, and especially this morning, prior to speaking to you, to make sure it was still current. And essentially we all have a mobile phone.

That means I don't know a single solitary person who's served who hasn't had somebody texting them, WhatsAppping them, saying, please help me, get me out. solitary person who's served who hasn't had somebody texting them whatsapping them saying please help me get me out um and what are you hearing from some of those women who've been in touch um so men and women they are desperate um they are having essentially taliban coming to their homes seeking them out um one of the reports that came through this morning from london school of economics women peace and security center we've worked with a lot over out. One of the reports that came through this morning from London School of Economics, Women, Peace and Security Centre, we've worked with a lot over the years for training, human security

training. A lot of these women are the key facilitators in some of the peace negotiations, be that on the ground when you're trying to ensure that when there's disputes or when you're needing to make sure there's a female voice amongst the military, they're therefore going to be a target now because they are well educated, they have got a voice, they are keen to make sure that they do the right thing. So they are a natural target now for the Taliban to remove. And for example, one peer yesterday said, when I chatted to her, she's helped, she's had 30 people get in touch with her over the last week because the feelings run deep

when you've lived in the sand with them. You know, we've given, I was speaking to the lady before coming on today, you know, my entire formulative years have been in the army serving in Iraq and Afghanistan to create peace and security for these peers of ours effectively to be able to live in. And that friendship piece you mentioned, we've now trying massively. There's a lady in Afghanistan at the moment who's helping run safe hotels. I think for four hours waiting for a British soldier to come on to the gate at the airport. And therefore on the telephone back to the UK was able to speak to the lady who trained them and say, please confirm we are bona fide, you know, Afghan army women officers. And the two of those ladies and their families are now in a safe house because of that personal action.

So the female officer at this end was able to confirm to the soldier, yes, these are Afghan female officers who have been trained by the British army. They have, you know, if you can, is to try and find them somewhere safe. So there's a sort of network, a kind of sisterhood network there, obviously including men as well, as you say, but just in that particular instance of women who trained Afghan soldiers, female soldiers in the Afghan army to vouch for them to get out. In terms of those who perhaps can't get out or aren't able to even try at the moment, what are you or your peers hearing from those women

and what's happening to them? We just obviously heard there from Pashtana Durrani what she's seeing around, but what are you hearing? Very much both for the female army and for the police are being hunted out. So that essentially both, like I said, there's a lady called Sangam Nagari who runs the London School of Economics, Women, Peace and Security.

And we've done a lot of work with her. They're literally having reports of the females being hunted out. But I would say it's, we're probably hearing that through the female network. I've also had male colleagues on the phone to me this week, where they've sent me the details of their children, their families saying, please help. I've been to the embassy, I can't get anyone to respond. So across the piece, it's desperately

trying to help them not get killed, essentially. And I think there's a really interesting piece that seems to be coming out when peers or other people in London have asked me about this. And they said, oh, but surely the women will just get raped. It's just to say there's no just about that and that the Taliban will obliterate the male and the female. And so, you know, they rape young boys. That's been known for years as a weapon of war and a weapon of intimidation. And the next stage on is to then be killed. And I've had to see for myself a female in a covered head be stoned. And I can tell you that will live with me for the rest of my life. And there's nothing pleasant about that. And there's nothing to be belittled about what they will put someone through, male or female, if they want to cause intimidation. And the more fear you can put into a society, the more it will capitulate. And this is about survival.

So anyone saying that the Afghans are being anything less than brave, I think is also very disingenuous. Does that include Joe Biden? Of course, the US president last week, he said, if they won't fight for themselves, why should we continue to fight for them? I think when you're on a matter of survival, you know that if you can survive to the following day, you can survive to fight. And it's about picking which day do you fight. How do you feel? You're no longer in the military. Is that right?

So I left the regular military in 2016 I was just checking when I said that because having you on today it's very interesting to hear your perspective most of the voices we've heard from the British military have been male certainly in the reports I've been reading and listening and watching and I wanted to ask that because it must be first of all you take a step back anyway when you leave anything and have different perspectives I imagine but how is it in the last 10 days or so having served there to look at our role and how do you

feel? It's heart-rendering. I joined the army at 17. Like I say my entire adult life has been given to serving those who we believe protecting those that can't protect themselves and literally even looking at my own flat and going but I earned the money to buy my home by serving abroad and you've always there's a term of happy money the idea that you could see that we take you know you'd go to schools you could see that we take, you know, you'd go to schools. You could see the happiness on the Afghans faces when if my mother here in Scotland would send out donations for us to take to the local orphanage and school next door to the camp. You can see the happiness on those faces as you take in clothes and toys and books. And you feel like your time away is absolutely worthwhile. And I wouldn't swap that for the world but to see it disintegrate

and then to get those text messages on your phone of please help me please help me this isn't a Star Wars movie where it's coming through R2-D2 this is real it's coming onto your own phone at night here are the passport details of my family please help the lady before me spoke and said about the money you know it takes money to stay in a safe house. It takes money to get to the airport because the airport runs are now, as you can imagine, armoured vehicles needing to be highly protected. That costs thousands of dollars and the banks are shut. So even for people I know have got funding elsewhere, there's no access to that funding. They've got and they can't, you know, that prospect of leaving your whole family.

The two Afghan ladies yesterday, the two officers who'd hidden in that sewage ditch for four hours. They're a family of seven with two small children. Another Afghan I spoke to on Saturday. You know, their father didn't have the paperwork. So, yes, a lot of the family had come to the UK, ironically, a decade ago. But one of them had gone back to look after him with COVID. The father's now just survived COVID, didn't have the paperwork to be able to evacuate. So he's now stuck. And so on the human level, you're seeing families being torn apart. You're seeing those of us who have made long termterm friendships that we are as military a political tool we all appreciate that but that doesn't stop us being human where we create those human

relationships where when someone says please help you want to do so and it's very painful when you can only do so much and I can can't emphasise the hard work that is going on amongst the government to try and consolidate those details, to make sure we can try and get those that have worked alongside us, because it is exactly that. It's working side by side to help get people out, but on a human level, it's painful. And I was going to say, when, you know, nowhere near government, when you're just in your flat at night receiving these messages, do you reply what can you reply uh the first thing i did when i received all those details was say see what i can do and i then rang into someone who i know has been helping with

the military effort for the evacuation and said what do i do so So the female military, both serving and ex, has a network called the Sandhurst Sisterhood, which is two and a half thousand female officers. And that has just been alive with how to help. For example, there's another veteran ex-military lady who's running a security company in Kabul. So hence, that's my exposure to the safe hotels and being able to have those safe runs to the airport so she's doing what she can there are the funding pages to try and make sure that we can raise funds to actually be able to pay for the security staff to help get other people out do you think that she would be able to talk to us on Women's Hour I can happily share her details and then we don't We don't normally, you know,

try and book our guests in front of listeners like this, but while you're here, it is Listener Week. I suppose we, you know, in a very serious note, it's important to make sure we hear about any form of help or resistance that is happening on the ground. So if you could, that would be

fascinating and very important to do. Just finally though, you sort of started to answer this. And I know what you said about it just being heart rendering and all of those feelings you must be having and people alongside you who've been in similar roles. But there has been a lot over the past week or so of was it all in vain? What were these actions that we took if 20 years are going to be unravelled certainly especially from women's rights perspective how do you answer that as someone who who did those tours in Afghanistan for the British military? I'd say let's see what happens on 9-11 because we haven't even hit the 20th anniversary. What do you mean by that? So people love to celebrate anniversaries.

And this would have been 9-11's 20th anniversary. So the Taliban will now be in power not even 20 years after the initial events of 9-11 that justified us going to fight there. Apart from that being obviously a very important and sort of poignant point to make, are you saying that in terms of a security threat? And I'm saying that as far as when you put on those dates that children will learn about in a calendar in school of what was it all about. We gave 20 years of service there. We gave 20 years of being fighting and giving the UK resource. I mean, you think of what the UK itself has been through to give up and to share its resource to allow the military and the UK to be in that country. And I think there's an element

of patience may have been missed. There was a really good discussion in Parliament last week about the patience that's taken to get South Korea to where it is, the patience it's taken to enable other countries. We're still in parts of Africa decades and decades and decades on providing security support. This is a long game. So I think my piece for the future is before someone takes us to war is to know that they're getting into a long game. So I think my piece for the future is before someone takes us to war is to know that they're getting into a long game. It's not a political foray without doing it in all seriousness. So your answer to that when I say is it in vain is what? I think the next chapter will have to show. You'll have to see. No, no, no. I want to clarify.

How do we welcome in these people who are, you know, as a nation, what do we do as they come on that plane? Do we make them welcome? Do we ensure we integrate them? Do we support those networks, helping those that want to evacuate get out? What do we as individuals show as a nation we want to be, be it male or female, is that we show our human side. The political decision has been made that's something i can't really you know i shouldn't comment on it appropriate but at a personal level it's up to us whether we welcome those families in it's up to us whether we help them find jobs it's up to us whether or not when someone gets in touch we continue that evening to

phone around till we find who can help, where can the details be sent to. There's people volunteering to support different offices in the government, for example, to help with manning. There's so many different ways that practically we can try and make sure something good comes out of this. Alice Bromwich. We are human. I'm going to have to leave it there.

Thank you very much for talking to us. Alice Bromwich, you served in Afghanistan as a major, who did two tours and left the military in 2016. I can now just speak to the BBC's chief international correspondent, Lise Doucette, who's on the scene. Lise, what is the latest? Thank you for joining us. Yes, I have to say that I have just pushed through

one Taliban checkpost after another in the city of Kabul through a massive traffic jam to try to get through to join you on your program, Emma, to tell you, to share with you what I've been seeing with Afghan women, Afghan young girls in the 24 hours that I've been in Afghanistan, a country I've been reporting in for more than 30 years. And one loses words to describe. Let me just paint a few pictures for you. Yesterday, when we arrived on one of the flights, an evacuation flight, ours came from the Gulf state of Qatar. And when we got off the plane, then there was a long queue of people, of Afghans, waiting to get on this plane.

And I went to the queue and I was startled to find old friends of mine, 20-year-old friends, who I met as teenagers in Afghanistan after the Taliban were ousted. Now they are educated. They are journalists. They are activists. There are women working at high levels of government. And they were in the queue waiting to get on the plane that I just got off. I saw a line of women who had been working, teaching at the American University of Afghanistan, one of the success stories of the last 20 years. And neither of, I have to admit, both of us were on the brink of tears. And one of the women just

looked at me and said, it came so sudden. We didn't expect this so quickly. We don't want to leave, but we have to leave. And when I listened to your last speaker saying, oh, please help these Afghans, help to integrate them. Many of these Afghans are going to be arriving in Britain and other countries as fully trained professionals in the last years of 20 years of international engagement in Afghanistan, which has now suddenly been turned upside down. Another young woman, when I said to you, are you sad to leave? She also broke down crying, a 19-year-old girl. And I said, what was your dream?

My dream was to study. But her dream was to study in Afghanistan. People are just reading. I just think, how do you begin to measure a loss which is immeasurable that any of our listeners can, if you woke up one morning and everything you knew about your life, the identity you cherished, how you described to strangers you would meet, the roads you took every day, the office you worked in, the dreams you held that carried you forward, all of what you had built over 20 years is wiped away in a second. It is a political tsunami. And suddenly you're waking up, some in Britain, in a country that you don't know, in a culture you're waking up in some in Britain in a country that you don't know in a culture you're not

familiar with and your future is so uncertain that is the the enormity of what's happening now in Afghanistan and it's not just the ones I met this is a brain drain from a country and it is so utterly painful yes well that pain is coming through, but it's also incredibly important to hear from you, Lise, with the people that you've seen and met and known over the years. Thank you for getting through to talk to us, and particularly with that focus on the women

and girls that you have already come across in your few hours back in that country you know so well that is changing by the minute. Lise Doucette, the BBC's chief international correspondent. Messages coming in in response to the interview we just held there with Alice Bromwich, who's the former major who served in Afghanistan, for instance, one here saying heartbreaking interview with the former woman soldier who served a long time in Afghanistan. If only wise voices like hers could have been heard throughout. I met several of her peers

when they're myself. It's clear how much they care and have been heard throughout. I met several of her peers when there myself. It's clear how much they care and have supported Afghan women. That's from Dame Joan Ruddock and other messages coming through to similar effect about how powerful it was to hear from a woman who had served there and what's been happening since. And those messages continuing to go between and that sisterhood that was described. We did start the whole programme. It is Listener Week and and I have to say, so many messages all last week was all about, and will continue, I'm sure, to be about the plight of women

and children and the wider population, of course, of Afghanistan. We won't take our eye off that. But we also started the programme talking about friendship, which did feed into there a bit of the sisterhood we were talking about in Afghanistan. I asked you, have you been dumped by a friend? And I have never seen so many messages come in so fast. The pain of it is visceral.

The loss of friendship can sometimes be as painful, if not more painful than breakups with romantic partners. But we don't quite have the same protocols or well-trodden roots when leaving friendships as we do partners. One listener got in touch to ask us to cover what it is like when you are the friend who is broken up with. And another listener, Claire, got in touch to say this. We had supported each other.

This is about a close friend who dumped her a few years ago. We had supported each other when we were both going through our divorces and shared a small circle of supportive girlfriends. When I told her I'd finally found out about my husband's affairs, she said she didn't want to talk about it and backed off a bit from the friendship before eventually completely breaking off all contact when she moved house.

One of our mutual friends eventually told me she said I was too negative. I respect her right to choose her friends, but I still feel hurt and a bit used, to be honest. It feels like she used my support when she needed it and dumped me when she was back on her feet well another listener melanie is actually on the line with me to tell us all about her experience melanie good morning good morning thanks for joining us well no it's

good to have you on and and i think it's really good that you're going to talk about this because i can't tell you the messages coming in are many and also very heartfelt. What happened with your situation because I believe you were broken up with? Yes, I was dumped about 10 years ago now by what was then a very close girlfriend of mine. We'd been close friends for over a decade. In fact, through the last years of university, the start of our careers, we'd seen each other get married, we'd been brides for over a decade, in fact, through the last years of university and the start of our careers. We'd seen each other get married. We'd been bridesmaids to each other. I think we'd even had our we'd had our first children, first boys about within months of one another. I still remember that very, very, very well indeed.

So the issue started we a couple of years after having had our first children. We thought about having a second child, as you do. Sounds as if we were married to each other, which we weren't, but we were obviously that close as friends. We'd had different challenges, as many women do, getting pregnant the first time. So we weren't sure what to expect. And very sadly, my friend suffered a miscarriage which was of course traumatic and I supported her as much as I could in that situation but then later on a few months later I think she did successfully become pregnant and it was at that point I can't remember how far down

the line she was but my friend then realized that the pressure to have that second child wasn't coming from her it was actually coming from her family her husband I think her husband's mom as well but you know that whole notion of you know the family unit um and I think she reflected very very hard and then took the tortured decision to not, not have that child to terminate the pregnancy. And I supported her through that as well. Of course, it was her decision. And she'd had, you know, as difficult time in the first few months of her first child's life, just being a mum. I think a lot of us don't find it that easy. Yes.

At the beginning. So I supported her in that decision to end the pregnancy but her dumping me sometime later was actually a result of of my completely unintended uh insensitivity towards the the wounds and the consequences that were left with her of that decision to not have a second child so um it was some months later perhaps even a year later I'd had I'd had a second uh boy and it was one Christmas time and her and her family had just moved house um and it was all perfectly merry and we were invited to come and see the new house which we we did um I had my two kids with me she had her, her son there. I think even her mum was there. And in my

eyes, it was a completely normal, friendly visit. Not a heart to heart. Of course, we had all the family there, but a nice visit. Champagne was served, etc. And her pain was just completely invisible to me that day. And unfortunately, I did or said something that was construed as irredeemably insensitive to her. It was a remark. My guilt is in that I can't even remember. It was something to do with a bedroom or a bed or a cot, and I was deaf and blind.

That was it. So a few months later, sorry, a few days later, I got a phone call. This was a friend, you know, as I said, 10, 11 year friendship. And I got a phone call saying, I don't need you in my life anymore. I don't need people who make me feel inadequate and bad. And I just felt obviously awful. And the worst part, you know, I wasn't able to verbally apologise, let alone apologise in person.

We had final correspondence by email and we never, never saw each other again or spoke again. I can hear and see, because I can see you on our video call here, that's really still with you. It's very, very raw and emotional. It is raw. And I'm sort of surprised at myself today because having heard the items from alice and lease in afghanistan it sort of feels almost trivial what i'm now talking about um and i but it you know it isn't i think one talks about these

things out loud yes one realizes that one hasn't perhaps fully recovered and you know i think if i was just going to i was just going to say, if I can, that I also think there's a huge taboo around this, even talking about this, which is why we were grateful you got in touch. Let me bring in Rhiannon Lucy-Costlett, who's a journalist and writer and has had some experience and written about this. And then I want to bring in the relationship expert Liz Pryor

to see if she can kind of help Melanie, if I may, and kind of bring some other people's experience into this. Rhiannon, what do you make of what you've just heard there? Well, you know, obviously it's heartbreaking to hear. It is a form of grief, I think, when you lose a friend like that. I think our friendships with other women, they are the defining relationships of our lives in many respects. You know, there's a reason that Eleanor Ferrante's novels, which tell the story of a female friendship throughout these women's lives, are so popular with readers. You know, that was something that hadn't really been looked at in literature before.

These friendships run incredibly deep. And so when they end, it is a form of grief and there isn't really a kind of arena where you're able to talk about this I think people tend to assume that our romantic relationships are the most significant in our lives and so I think when friendships end that it's kind of underestimated how much they can affect us. Yes. And the messages coming in are from both sides, I should say. People who've actually, you know, said I had to end something because it wasn't good for me anymore. And other people saying, you know, I still don't really know what I did wrong. Liz, is that a big theme? People not knowing what they did wrong?

Yeah, it's a huge theme. I'm really feeling your pain. I wanted to ask her a couple of questions. One thing is, it's really uncommon, actually, for women to mark the ending. So, Melanie, I will say this to you. I'm glad that your friend had the courage to call you and give it to you. And I can't see past your pain here. So I need to say a couple of things to you. One thing is I sense from you that you not only missed her and that it was such a long friendship, but it feels to me like you feel guilty. And when I say, you said she told you that you weren't aware enough of her pain what pain was she talking about the pain that she went through in her choice to terminate her pregnancy what pain is she talking about do you um so Liz I mean I wish I knew a lot more but I I think she yes she was referring to my insensitivity towards the pain she was feeling as a result of having decided to abort this second child. Okay. Having tried so hard to have it, right?

Correct. And Liz, what would you say to that? I would say to that, just the sentence coming out of melanie's mouth melanie you have to i want you to release the notion that you melanie have anything to do with the pain that she suffered for the decision that she made right now maybe who knows maybe she associates you with this segment of her life this this section, and you went on and made different choices. So it's not unfathomable that she connects you to some sort of trigger inside of her. It seems like such a lovely person.

And I was going to think I was going to say to you to express your feelings to her in a letter. But it appears you guys have already done that. The other point I wanted to make to you is women are, you know, we're all seeing here how deep the river runs within friendship. One thing that I've noted in 20 years of studying this is that we're also really quick when when time passes it changes a lot I don't know if you're prepared to reach back out to her um well I did Liz I I so I was after my anger and my initial shock subsided I thought I actually thought I was quite I was quite, I don't know. I thought at the beginning, I thought she'll, she'll come back to me in a few months time once she's healed. So what I did is I waited and then I emailed maybe six months later. And then each year,

once a year for two, maybe three years, I just kept reaching out. How are you? I hope you're doing well. Love to hear from you. Not putting pressure on to go back to where we were, but just to say, you know, I'm thinking about you. And I was, but I never got anything, anything, nothing, nothing. I am sorry, Melanie. It's just to hear that though. Well, again, I can see at least three messages that follow quite a similar pattern to what Melanie is saying, you know, people trying again. Liz, just a final thought if i come from you because of your your expertise and experience on this is do you think that the that female friendship does have a very um i know not everyone ends it like that but does it have a very specific difference to it oh I mean, in general, yes. It's typically met with zero protocol. I can't figure out, you know, there is no protocol in place. It's so interesting to me that in romantic let the person know you're no longer interested.

But in female friendship, that doesn't exist. You see, we don't really have to. So most oftentimes we don't. And it really is leaving a mega trail. And I think that goes back to what Rhiannon was saying. Let yourself have that grief because it is a real grief. I think we could have done the whole hour on this, if I'm honest. And perhaps we'll have to come back to it a bit later in the week.

So forgive us for that, for not being able to read out all of the messages in response. But it's a huge issue. Liz Pryor, thank you very much to you. Rhiannon, Lucy Croslet, thank you to you and a brilliant article you wrote about it that people can check out. And Melanie, thank you so much for being brave and coming on and talking about it because it will help others to know they're not alone in being in your role and you've opened up something very, very big and important indeed. To come to another issue that's been raised, it's around women's actions but in a very different circumstance. Now, stealthing is a word that in recent years has come to mean the act of removing a condom during sex without the consent of the partner. You may or may not have heard the term. We have covered the issue on the programme before. Check it out on BBC Sounds.

And in the past few months, a number of women have spoken out about stealthing. But Helen emailed in and had a question to know if women can stealth. And the example she gave was that if a woman wants to get pregnant, but her partner doesn't, and she secretly stops taking the pill without telling them. Helen says, anecdotally, she knows a few cases of this. Harriet Johnson, a barrister from Doughty Street Chambers, and Dr. Siobhan Ware, a senior lecturer at the Lancaster University Law School, are on the line to discuss this. Harriet, if I could come to you first, is that stealthing? Well, it's, I mean, if we're talking about stealthing as being a type of rape, then no, it's not because the Sexual Offences Act 2003 requires the use for penis to be rape. There's a second difficulty, though, as to whether or not it's sexual assault. And that, I haven't been able

to find any cases at all in law where women have been prosecuted for doing this but there's perhaps an equivalent case where a man called jason lawrence was um convicted of having lied about a vasectomy he was convicted of rape on the basis that he'd lied about having had a vasectomy and he appealed that conviction and the court of appeal said that the lie the deceit went to the consequences of the act, so the potential poor pregnancy, rather than the act itself, so the sex. And so as such, the lie wasn't enough to vitiate consent. So it may well be that because of that judgment, that this isn't even potentially sexual assault.

It's a fascinating one to think about in this context. Siobhan, what do you make of the question and how, if this is a thing, as it seems to be in terms of what Helen knows, one of our listeners, how to respond to that and what we should make of it? Yeah, so I think it's a very kind of common question. I think people are always very interested to think about how the law applies to different groups of people and I think particularly around things like sexual offences we've had you know so much discussion over the past few years about sexual offences and you know we've had the me too movement and on everything that that's brought and I think then there's

these questions that are asked about well what about men in terms of their protection under the law and how their experiences are classified under the law? And, you know, I absolutely agree with Harriet. You know, I can't find any cases about where this has been prosecuted. But, you know, certainly in my research, I have seen men's experiences that are similar to that, that your um your listener um called in and mentioned um but also you know it's it's not surprising in the sense that men are treated quite differently as victims under sexual offenses legislation so for example a man cannot be raped and by a woman um you know as the principal offender under the current law women can be accomplices um but they cannot be the principal offender exactly for the reason that Harriet stated about the requirement that it's penile penetration.

So the law at the moment, whether you think that's right or wrong, is relatively clear on where this would be and how it would come out. But in terms of if this is happening, albeit not being prosecuted, Harriet. Do you think morally and as a society, what we haven't caught up with the with almost the judgment of that or our view of that? Because that's certainly Helen seems to be concerned about this. I think I think what we're seeing is broader and more detailed conversations about consent generally and what that means. And I think, I mean, there are some difficulties about this judgment from the Court of Appeal saying that lying about contraception when it's a vasectomy is different to lying about contraception when it's a condom, which is stelsing and is rape. Because it seems to me, and I think it would seem to most people to be a fairly arbitrary distinction about whether you're lying about

wearing a condom for contraception or whether you're lying about having had a vasectomy or taking the pill in this case. So I think what we are seeing societally is much broader and more detailed conversations about consent generally and what consent means. And I do think, I mean, I'd submit that it's a fairly arbitrary distinction because, frankly, what is a condom if not to control the consequences of sex? And it may well be that the law needs to be revisited to to catch up with the rest of society. So that might be where we come up. Final thought from you, Siobhan? Yeah, I would agree. I mean, I think there's definitely all these conversations going on and I think we've made such progress in terms of understanding the experiences particularly of women who've experienced you know stealthing and lots of other types of sexual offences and

I think it is about them revisiting the law and looking at where we are and also in trying to incorporate the experiences of all different victims of sexual violence I think it's really important that as we begin to have these conversations that we also incorporate men within it. There's certainly space. It doesn't need to be an us versus them or him versus her conversation. There is space. And I think it's so important to just gather the perspectives across the board to make sure everybody's well represented. Dr. Siobhan Ware and Harriet Johnson, thank you. And thank you to Helen for that original email. Now, another message that came in, another comment that came in, came via Instagram from Barbara Marshfield,

who's been a painter and decorator for 25 years. She commented on our Instagram post about Listener Week and asked if we could discuss the women's experience or women's experiences of working in trade, saying, I'm a painter and decorator. There's a growing number of women in all trades. Can we encourage more girls to join us? It can be a good life. I'd put a positive and decorator. There's a growing number of women in all trades. Can we encourage more girls to join us? It can be a good life.

I'd put a positive spin on this. It's not all about sexism from the lads. I'm joined by her now, along with Steph Lees, a.k.a. the Pink Plasterer. Barbara, why do you feel so passionate about this? I think it's a good life. Young girls often go for... Yes? I'm listening sorry go for hospitality or retail and and those those areas great but there's a world of other stuff out there practical stuff where you can earn much more money and um and there's the potential for running your own business and, you know, working for yourself and just having a good life. Yeah, well, the figures don't lie. A recent survey by the builders merchant Selco revealed that tradespeople are £35,000 better off than university graduates. Only 14.5% of the construction workforce as a whole is female, but that drops to just 2%

when it comes to skilled manual trades, according to the Construction Industry Training Board. Barbara, how did you get into it? Well, I was actually in my 30s and I went, I was doing murals for people, but I went to the local college to do a course on specialist paint effects and and they said to me why don't you do the decorating course I did that and never looked back got work straight away and have had constant work ever since and that was 25 years ago um just a little bit of leafleting did the trick and I think think it's perhaps because I've been able to make good relationships with clients, which men aren't always terribly good at. So you get a lot of repeat business.

And then you have to put less effort into finding work. No, I mean, relationship with a good decorator is definitely one you should always have if you can. Mine, the guy that we've used for a long time, it is a man, sorry to say that, but he does bring his own box of tea every day. That's how much him and his son get through. So, you know, as long as you can have a good chat as well, it's always nice, isn't it?

Let me bring in Steph at this point. The pink plasterer. Tell us about this. Morning, Emma. Morning. It certainly gets a few raised eyebrows and people remember the name, so it's always a good gimmick, really.

But, you know, pink female, pink plaster, it's all there. OK, so it's not actual pink plaster, but I like to check the root of the name. You got into this from a different career, is that right? Yeah, I was working in a law firm and I got made redundant. My ex-boyfriend years ago was a plasterer. And I always thought, wow, I'd like to do that because I used to come home you know see him come home with roll the cash in his hand and I think why am I doing this and you're doing that and getting that type of money so um it inspired me when I got uh made redundant to invest that money and go and retrain and you know go and look at being a plasterer and

I haven't looked back it is very hard to to do. It's a very hard job. It took many hours and many years to train, but now I'm really chuffed that I did it. So hard in terms of actually getting the skills to do it? Oh, yeah. Physically, it's hard. Mentally, it's hard. It took me at least seven years to be able to be proficient in all areas of plastering. It is quite a skilled job.

I have two guys who work for me now. They've both been working for me for 12 years. Do they wear pink? I'm just checking. Pink overalls? I'd love them too, but unfortunately not, no. Just trying to build up a picture here. Do you think there is anything you could say to anyone listening now? I'm very aware of what we hear from the government, certainly about skills shortages and gaps in the market and what we're able to get people to was 30. So for me, I now go around colleges and schools

and do workshops for kids who are GCSE 8 and below just to try and get them involved, show them that there are options. You can use your hands and do other things in life. And also, you know, it is a good game to get into. As I say, you know, I'm earning way more money than I did when I was working in a law firm. I'll tell you that.

We turned over a profit of £120,000 this year, which is great. You know, and I certainly didn't earn that when I was working at a law firm. So, you know, built on about £60,000, £70,000 on top of what I was earning before. So you just can't dispute that, really. I know that you also were, when you were originally starting out, perhaps undervaluing your services a little. You've got to get that, really. I know that you also were, when you were originally starting out, perhaps undervaluing your services a little. You've got to get good at pricing yourself. Yeah, I was terrible at it.

I think as a female, we always underprice ourselves. We always undervalue ourselves. I'd come home and my customers were richer than me and I couldn't pay the bills because I'd done them a favour and done things cheaper and added extra bits on without pricing for it. And at of the day it was me that was suffering not them so i had to have a really good look at myself see that i was worth what i was charging and put myself in a position where you know i was i was market level with people and and that's something i didn't do for quite a few years and you learn the hard way you really do but now we're all about level. I've got great support through British Gypsum.

I'm the only female on there, I think, at the moment, or I was, who's one of the certified plasterers and the labs on there are fantastic. They really support me and it's great to find that support because there was a bit of resistance when I first went into the trade, but now I get more and more male supporters as I go along. So it has changed. Barbara, is that pricing point something that you also experienced? Yes, certainly when I started, I was probably underpricing.

It's easier now that you can go on any forum, you know, of whatever your trade is and just ask people what's the going rate for your area and then never, never go below that because if you're getting work because of that, it's not worth it. Let me bring in Fiona Sharps, who's the social value director for Procure Plus, which is a not for profit social housing procurement company that supports efforts to make tradeswomen in the UK the norm, not the exception. Good morning, Fiona. Good morning. What do you want to say to anyone listening who thinks, well, maybe I need a career change or I've never considered this well I think um the points that Steph and Barbara have made already um are quite typical of females

in this sector um typically the sector doesn't promote itself particularly well to females uh within the education sector at a younger age it's never been something that I was ever spoken to about when I was at school but people do find the sector often later in life when they are a little bit um a little bit older and make their own life choices later on and come and come to training and retraining uh later on just as uh Steph and Barbara did and we do a lot of work with local colleges it was interesting to hear that um that's sort of the route that both those ladies took and so we work with colleges to ask them who they have got on their trades cohorts each year so that we can make sure that any females that that find the trades within um the education sector don't get lost on that journey and do make it through to actually finding employment

and we also work with employers directly where we have discussions with them about workforce planning, succession planning, the benefits of having a diverse workforce, which does include having a relevant proportion of females in the workforce and the benefits and attributes that women can bring. And obviously from the employer's perspective, it's all about commerciality. And so you just explain the benefits of having females in the workforce and get the employer's mindset in the right place. And then you link together the females that you've found in other areas, such as the local colleges who you know are training. And also we work with community voluntary sector organisations who help people retrain and get work ready who may suffer barriers to employment and some of those people are women and we do quite a lot of work with them to make sure

that they do promote the construction sector to these women that they're supporting into employment so that it's not an avenue that is ever not discussed with them so they don't naturally go to the sectors such as retail and the care sector that are more associated with female employment. And after the sort of 16, 17 months we've just had with retail and in particular suffering the way it has, that couldn't be more important, I imagine. Steph, Barbara, thank you to you for coming on. And Barbara, do you think we will have changed some minds? Well, let's hope so. Can I just make one tiny point? Quickly, very quickly. There is this idea that working with men is difficult.

There's no more difficult men in trade than there is in any other sphere. You'll be fine. You'll be fine. And Steph, I imagine, how do you take your tea? I've got to ask. Oh, always white with one. That's got to be key, surely. I'm going to write a book called White With One. That's got to be key, surely. I'm going to write a book called White with One.

It's going to be brilliant. White with One. All right, I'll remember that because that's the key service that the clients have to provide in response to your brilliant skills. Stephanie, thank you very much to you. Barbara, thank you to you and Fiona to you.

And thank you to all of you for so many messages today and for forming the first programme of Listener Week. Roll on tomorrow. Thank you for your company. We'll be back at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Greg Jenner and I'm here to tell you that You're Dead to Me is back for a fourth series. Hooray! Yes, we are a comedy show that takes history seriously.

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