Woman's Hour - Listener Week: Women & Walking, Bulimia, Becoming a Mother Unexpectedly

Episode Date: August 26, 2020

Would you consider walking 880 miles around the Wales Coastal Path? Two listeners, Helen and Rhian, tell us about their experiences, and they are joined by academic Kerri Andrews, author of Wanderers: A History of Women Walking. Daisy Leigh was 23 when she felt an unfamiliar kicking sensation and was shocked to discover she was 30 weerks pregnant. She had just two months to prepare, mentally and practically, for becoming a mother. Nine months on, she says her daughter is the best thing that's ever happened to her, and she'll be talking about the challenges and pressures of becoming a young mum when her career was taking off. Helen got in touch wanting to highlight bulimia, which she feels is often overshadowed by anorexia. She talks about her experience with the condition and how difficult it is, particularly as her weight is a healthy one. Also on the programme is Associate Prof Lucy Serpell, Dept of Clinical, Educational and Health Psychology at UCL, who also treats bulimia patients in a clinical capacity. Lockdown inspired listener Suzanne to start her own business. Furloughed from her work as a child advocate, she had time to return to developing her hat-making skills using recycled 100% wool.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. It's day two of Listener Week. It's Tuesday, August the 25th, 2020. Hi there, good morning. It is the second day of Listener Week on Woman's Hour, which means that everything we're talking about throughout the course of the week has been suggested by you.

And thank you again for being so willing to take part and so enthusiastic when you get the chance to be with us. We really do appreciate it. Today, we're going to talk to Helen, who wants to speak very honestly about bulimia. We'll hear about a life changed by lockdown, Suzanne, who started making hats with 100% recycled wool. There's one for our listeners who enjoy craft so much. I know there are many of you out there. And we'll hear too from Daisy, who was 23 and very happy actually in her life and in her work and in a relationship. And then one day she felt this weird kicking sensation.

Can you guess what had happened to Daisy? She'll tell us all about it on Woman's Hour this morning. Very much looking forward to hearing her experience. But we all about it on Woman's Hour this morning. Very much looking forward to hearing her experience. But we're going to start with something really life enhancing. We're going to join two listeners, Helen and Rhian,

who are walking the 880 miles of the Wales coastal path. Helen, Rhian, good morning to you both. Where are you now, Helen? Well, we're sitting in the bar on the campsite that we're staying on so if there's banging in the background it's not us it's them all right but we're in Carnarvon okay and did you camp out last night no thankfully we're staying undercover yeah I was

going to say because it was quite wild last night it really was now Helen your email to us said that this walk had been the most astonishing life-affirming and single best thing we've ever done for our mental health. And you were talking there about you and your walking companion, Rhian, who is your old school friend. And Rhian, how long have you known Helen? We first met when we were 11, so quite a long time. Yeah. First impressions? She was a bit strange, but we warmed to each other eventually. I thought she was very strange, so I think we got on from the outset. All right,

very strange and a bit strange. That's how you know when you've met your lifelong mate. Okay, we're also going to talk to the writer and academic Kerry Andrews, another keen walker and the author of Wandering, A History of Women Walking. We'll talk to Kerry in a moment or two. But Helen, when did you and Rhian go on your first walk? This is our fifth year. But we were really recapping something that we did when we were 17. We were incredibly badly kitted out and tried to walk part of the Wales coastal path when there was a dreadful gale

and it was a catastrophe from start to finish. So it took us about 40 years to get over that and then decided to recap about four years ago. Right. And Rhian, were you somebody who thought of walking as boring? Presumably, if you were attempting that in your teens, then there was always a part of you that found the whole idea quite appealing. Oh, yes. I've always loved walking. I used to walk with my dad and the dog and it was just something exciting to do that wasn't involved with school or or anything else it was just something a bit different but also to be out there in the fresh air and seeing somewhere different as well and every single day is different can you just let the listeners into the way you operate, Helen?

Because you do this thing, this bunny hopping operation. Just explain what this is. We've done it a couple of ways. We have done a linear walk where we've stayed somewhere new every day. But it's sometimes easier if you put yourself in one place. And then we take two cars and we situate a car at either end of the walk, walk to the end of the walk and then drive back. It sounds so simple. Has anything ever gone wrong?

There was a stunning day when I managed to leave my car, my keys in Rhian's car, which was at the wrong end of the walk. And we arrived at my car and I didn't have my keys. Were expletives used at that point? Quite a few. And I'm very glad that she didn't push me off the cliff that we were standing on. I wouldn't have blamed her, really. You can't do this sort of thing, Rhian, can you, unless you really do know the person you're doing it with? No, I think it's very important.

And actually, our relationship, I think, has become stronger in a way since we started the whole thing. And yeah, we just bounce off each other. We know when, like I know when she's not feeling great or she senses when I'm feeling tired. So it is very much a two-way relationship as we walk. Now, I know, Helen, in your original email, you mentioned the impact on mental health. And I know that your husband died when he was really very young, in his 40s. Can I ask, did you walk with him or is this a separate thing that is distinct from your relationship with him? It was very distinct and it was something that we chose to do afterwards. My husband, bless him, was in the Air Force and he didn't like camping and he didn't like walking because he said that

when he was doing those two things, people were normally trying to kill him. So he didn't like it much. So it was afterwards that we set aside a bit of time for ourselves and walked just for the joy of it, really. Stay with us. Kerry Andrews, there's something really significant about women and walking. And I think you dismiss it if really you just don't know about the history, because those of us who are obviously living now take for granted the notion that women could go out for a walk. But actually, it's just not true, Kerry. It hasn't always been a given. It's certainly been complicated, I think, by a range of factors, some personal, some social. But I think it's really important to remember that whatever restrictions women experience, that they always found a way to get out

and to experience the outdoors. So even whilst women in the 18th century were being told that being physically capable meant that they were unfeminine or that they were putting themselves at risk, that there were women who found those two things extraordinarily exciting, that they didn't want to be feminine. Elizabeth Carter at the early part of the 18th century, for instance, desperately wanted to be mistaken for a vagabond. She wanted to be taken up by the local authorities because she looked so rough. So I think it's really important to bear that in mind, even whilst we experience more freedom, that even now in our own time,

that there are still stories that we tell ourselves and are told as women, that I think perhaps inhibits women's ability to feel confident in the outdoors. I don't think we've quite moved past that. And I think it's important to remember that in former times, women found ways through it too. Yeah, I think that's interesting. Where did Elizabeth Carter walk? She was resident in Deal in Kent. So her favourite walks were around the cliffs

and along the coast there. She was very interested in finding sublime spaces to watch the waves and feel the wild weather. She writes in the letters that she sent to her close friends quite frequently about going off in appalling weather. So it seemed there was no snowstorm cold enough, no wind strong enough, no water wet enough that she couldn't find a light in it. And if that was out on the exposed cliffs, so much the better. And there are other very notable women walkers. Dorothy Wordsworth is one, a name that lots of people would know, William's sister.

She was pretty horrible to her walking companion. I'm not saying this goes on with Helen and Rhian, but there may be similarities. Yes, she started walking with her brother. That was her first main walking companion. But as she got older, she started walking with her sister-in-law and um some of the accounts that she writes of those experiences because Joanna just wasn't as fast as Dorothy and Dorothy loses patience with her so frequently um I feel very sorry for Joanna as someone who is not the fastest in the walking

group who is sometimes and has sometimes been left behind and Dorothy would run off to the accommodation before Joanna could catch up with her but at the same time there was also a sense of sincere companionship I think and this may be something that Helen and Rhian experienced too that having another woman on the walk makes a huge difference and I think for Dorothy having a female companion meant that she experienced things differently. Dorothy and Joanna, for instance, have access to spaces that men wouldn't have and perhaps single women wouldn't have. They're invited into a home where the two women who are resident there are mourning the loss of a child who was actually laid out on the table when Dorothy walks in. And there's this very feminine space there. And they found that a very moving experience. And it's something that Dorothy was able to share with Joanna in a way that made it more profound as an experience, I think.

So it was both for Dorothy. She enjoyed and also found frustrating the companionship of her sister-in-law. Well, let's go back to Helen and Ria. What do you think about that, Helen? The idea that there's something significant about women and female companionship and the great outdoors? Oh very much so when we were listening we were sort of nodding to a lot of that. I think one of the things that we can do because two of us walk together and we're both

women is that people will talk to us. I think we're probably seen as non-threatening and we get a lot more out of walks because we talk to other people on the walk and they share their experiences of walking with us. It's absolutely fascinating. Which route, which part of the route are you currently on and what are you hoping to achieve today, either of you? Rhian? Well, we're hoping to walk from Nevin, which is south of Carnarvon, a little bit further on to Pothcolman, although I don't know what the weather is going to allow us to do that. The weather's going to be terrible. We did look on the trusty BBC weather app and it's not good.

No, it's not. But I think it's about... Oh, no. We're going to trudge through it and get it done and then come back and have some hot chocolate. Yeah, that's the spirit. Stick a couple of marshmallows on top as well, why not? Things are certainly livening up in that bar you've got.

Who's that bawling in the background there? It's the people getting the bar ready for later on today. They've been very kind to let us sit in here, actually. Oh, yeah, no, we should say that. Sorry. Absolutely, yes. But it did get a little bit exciting there. Yes, no, actually. Oh, yeah. No, we should say that. Sorry. Absolutely. Yes. But it did get a little bit exciting there. Yes. No, it did ever so slightly.

OK. Really lovely to talk to you both and have a good day. Stay as dry as can be possibly expected. I think it's actually slightly better tomorrow. So things should be better then. You also heard from the writer and academic Kerry Andrews,

author of a really interesting book called Wandering, A History of Women Walking. But our listeners and walkers there were Helen and Rhian. Lovely to hear from them. And if you want to chip in perhaps with your favourite walk, let us know where you've been, who you've been with and why that particular route means something special to you. We would love to include your thoughts in the Woman's Hour podcast later. bbc.co.uk forward slash Woman's Hour. This week then all about you, all about your experiences and Daisy. Daisy, good morning to you, Daisy. How are you today? Can you hear me, Daisy?

Hi, Jane. Can you hear me? Yes, great. I thought for a second. Thank you for having me. The Storm Francis gremlins had done something to our line, but we're all right. We can hear you. Now, Daisy, you emailed us with your experience. I said at the start of the programme that you were chugging along. Well, more than that, actually. You were 23, doing really well in life and work. And then what happened?

So I was very busy. It was last year. I was 23. I was really happy. I had a lovely partner who I'd been with for about a year, but we were by no means, you know, ready to have children. We'd sort of thought maybe five years down the line, that would be what we would plan. I was working. I had a very busy lifestyle in central London and I was just feeling completely myself. I was on birth control as well. So I was on the same pill that I had been on for years and I trusted it completely and I was actually taking it back to back, which is what you spoke about on the programme yesterday.

I was very pleased to hear the health professional say that that's okay because that's what I had read. I'd read that it was absolutely fine and it almost increases your chances of not getting pregnant. So I was doing that deliberately and I had no inkling or reason whatsoever to believe that I could or would fall pregnant. Okay. Can I just be sounding like your mother here? Did you remember to take it every day, Daisy? This is what's so funny. I took it fantastically. And I'm not just saying that. I have friends who

obviously, you know, I'm on the younger side. I'm in my early 20s and a lot of my friends you know they'll go oh gosh I you know I never take my pill I always forget but I was literally taking it every single day at the exact same time and I had a reminder that would come up on my phone and I never forgot so that's what's so funny there was no and even you know you can sometimes fall sick and perhaps have a day where you that you know it can fall out of you that way if you throw up or something like that yeah but I never even had a day like that I was I was completely taking it perfectly so yeah where were you when you felt there's no feeling like it on earth if you've been lucky enough to feel it um there's somebody in there and they're making their presence known where were you so I came home from a very busy day at work and I lay down on my bed on my own. I was completely alone. And I felt, as you say, a feeling I had never felt in my life.

And it was almost kind of like a fluttering, but it was also very prominent. So it was I could almost feel like you see in a film, a sort of a foot coming up and touching my tummy. And I had never, ever felt it before, which is funny. So it was obviously the first day that my daughter had decided to show herself. um it was it was very prominent and I I was very alien as well I just had never felt it and had no idea what it could be I didn't even automatically think I was pregnant because I was so taken aback you can imagine um by feeling that so I I lay there and I just thought oh my gosh I I thought even if I am pregnant, how on earth can this baby be moving inside of me? Because I can't be. I knew that you had to be seven, eight months or nine months pregnant to feel that.

So it was very, very out of the blue. What did your partner say? So before, well, I actually didn't tell anyone. I was so taken aback that I kept that news to myself for at least a day, actually. I took three pregnancy tests the next day, which ended up all coming back positive. And I almost panicked. But I also thought, you know what? I refuse to believe that I'm very far along.

Maybe I'm early in a pregnancy and that's OK because it gives me time. So I had those tests and I booked an emergency doctor's appointment. Still didn't tell anybody. Didn't tell my partner because I didn't want to panic him. So I ended up going to that appointment and the doctor confirmed that I was pregnant. And then after during that day, after sort of being passed around by doctors, I ended up having an ultrasound as well. And that's when they confirmed I she lifted up my dress actually and said, oh, gosh, have you not noticed this bump? And I said, I do not have a bump I've essentially I had thought I put on some weight at the bottom of my stomach because I was I was

carrying this baby so low down in my pelvis that I the top of my stomach I could breathe in and I could feel my rib cage and there was nothing there so I thought you know as a woman you know my weight fluctuated anyway and I'm used to my tummy sort of growing and you know getting a bit podgy so I had no problem that I'd put on some weight at the bottom. It was not a baby bump at all. But this doctor said, oh, gosh, you haven't noticed this bump. And then she did an ultrasound and said she actually went silent. And when she went silent, I knew she was about to say something quite life-changing.

And she said, oh, Daisy, you're actually looking about 30 weeks pregnant, which is seven months. And, I mean, you can imagine, I looked at looking about 30 weeks pregnant, which is seven months. And I mean, you can imagine I looked at the ceiling and I just I was gobsmacked. I didn't even have any words to say. So before I told my partner, I actually called my poor mum and I shouted down the phone to her that I was pregnant. I didn't even process. I hope you didn't attempt to blame your mother. I didn't blame my mother, but she did live with me. so she couldn't believe that she hadn't seen it happen herself I I lived with three younger sisters and my mother and no one had seen that I looked pregnant because I didn't um so I I but I didn't process it I literally just

shouted mommy I'm pregnant help me what am I gonna do um and she came and picked me up and then we kind of went through the process together before I even got to the stage of telling my partner um but when I did tell him I told him later that day and I I had to the stage of telling my partner. But when I did tell him, I told him later that day and I had to tell him the whole story. You know, he hadn't even known that I felt kicking. So I explained it to him and he was just, he'd slept in a bed with me for seven months and never, never known a thing. So he was absolutely gobsmacked, but he was fantastic. He was so supportive and he went and told his family and came back to me and said Daisy we can do this we're gonna we're gonna be fine on a serious note I guess you hadn't been living the life of a pregnant woman had you you because you didn't know exactly so luckily for me

I mean a lot of my story is very lucky I I'm not a big drinker and I hadn't been at all that year almost but perhaps that was subconscious. But I had had no interest in having alcohol or anything or partying or anything like that, even though I'm in my early 20s. So I very much was focusing on work and my relationship. However, as you say, I was running around and I was on Oxford Street and going to meetings and just not acting pregnant at all. I'd actually been on holiday the month before as well in a bikini and I'd been on a beach, you know, having a cocktail with no idea that I was six months pregnant. So I guess the first thing we worried about, of course, was the health of this baby. And the midwife that did my my ultrasound was very keen that I got a scan booked.

And I mean, the doctors that I called up couldn't quite believe it. I thought it might be relatively common, actually, for this to happen. But they had not heard of anything like this. And I ended up having to get a private scan the next day as there were no NHS scans available for a few days. So I went to a private scan with very, very much afraid with my mother and my partner. And as you said, I just I had no idea if this baby was even going to be born okay or healthy. And and luckily I got there and and the midwife lovely midwife did a very full scan for me and I was too scared to even look at the screen because it was it was still just sinking in for me but my mother looked at the

screen for me and midwife was going you know there's there's five fingers five toes a perfect lung every perfect lungs everything's there and luckily the baby was completely healthy and and she said do you want to know the gender and I said well I haven't actually got time to say no to that question um I've got two months so yes please tell me the gender um and it was a beautiful baby girl who was completely healthy so I was very lucky yes I mean you I know you're very anxious to point out that you know how lucky you are first of all you were healthy um and you're in a loving relationship. And this pregnancy, although a shock, was not a disaster for you because you had support. Yes, I was. I was so blessed.

And we although, yes, in that first week we were in complete denial. And I'll be honest, I was very, very, very scared. I didn't want to become a mother that quickly. I wasn't I thought, how can I have this responsibility on my shoulders? However, as you said, I was in a stable job with a stable boyfriend and I had lovely support from family members. So we said to ourselves, this poor baby has been in my stomach growing herself completely on her own with no help from me. And the worst thing I could do would be to sort of not honor her and to bring her into a world where she is

um well we're not ready for her and where we're scared of her so I made a very conscious decision to to sort of look at it as a blessing and to just just give this baby everything that I could so we we made it very positive as soon as we could but as you say I the reason I like to speak about this is because there are women out there who bless them you know they wouldn't be in a position like I was and maybe I could have been 16 you know I could have been or I could have been in a relationship where my partner wasn't going to be supportive or where I didn't have enough money to do it and that's why I just think it is important that women are aware that sometimes I like to say nature actually can win in this circumstance and we do take birth control to sort of you know do

as best we can to plan for a baby but sometimes sometimes, yes, nature wins and you just have to go with that. Have you got a peer group of mothers of a similar age? Because I think the average age now for a British woman to have her first child is about 30. So you are something of an outlier. Absolutely. Well, I will say in my circle of people that I know, I was definitely a very, very rare case and nobody else was even remotely ready for children. I have one very close friend who has planned for a baby and she's got a beautiful daughter and I'm very lucky to have her because we sort of went through our pregnancies together, although I had two months and she had nine months of pregnancy. she was there and then I actually would say that social media has been a great help for me because that's

where I found the women who are my age and there are lots of women out there in their early 20s who chose to have a baby and have beautiful families and they plan for it and they're very happy in their situations and so I find a lot of solace in talking to those women but in person as you say no a lot of people my age are not ready at all. And I do feel, you know, definitely, I do feel as an anomaly. Yeah. Well, we need to just honour young Savannah,

who has, well, she made her presence felt significantly, of course, on that day when you felt her move. And she's kept on moving because, and this will irritate parents throughout the land because you're about to annoy them with how precocious she is. when did she walk for the first time my very advanced daughter started walking at eight months which was I I thought I had months left to plan for that but she just went off she was she's an absolute rocket she's all over the place she climbs up on sofas yeah

and she's walking down the streets with me now and she's 10 months old. So I definitely have what I call a miracle baby. OK. So how do you think she'll go about her life quickly by the sound of things? So are we talking Olympic Games, a life in politics? What do you reckon? Oh, I will let her do whatever she wants to do, because I think she has very big plans, clearly. And I'm not I'm not to stand in her way. You know, know when she was in that womb she was not letting me have any say in anything so whatever she wants to do I will stand by her and I know I honestly I do I'm I'm so I'm not only proud of her but I look up to her in a way because she I just can't believe how independent

a little fetus can be and yeah I will support her for all yeah all her life you have so much joy awaiting you not least the first the first time she tells you you don't know anything about anything believe me that probably won't be very far off i'll give it about another year um and are you are you back on the pill daisy oh gosh i so i would say that the pill is absolutely effective it's i would never tell women not to take it but i would say say that for me, it clearly did not work. And I just think that I mean, there was no reason for me to fall pregnant on that pill seeing as I was taking it so well. So I do think that my body was just that 1% of women who do, you know, it doesn't work for. So for me, I was very keen to find a different form of contraception. And I had to actually go straight back onto it when I after I had my baby,

because you can't get another form of contraception like the coil until you're 12 weeks postpartum. So I went back on the coil and I will say I took a lot of pregnancy tests during that time. But then as soon as I could, I got the coil fitted, which has been fantastic for me. So there are many forms out there and every woman has a different form that will work for them. But I would never say the pill doesn't work. It's for me it wasn't going to be my my contraception going forward. All right and just I think we need to nod to the fact that Savannah's middle name is Leonora and that is because of? That's because of a very strange event which happened in that when I had I'd known for about a month that I was pregnant and my lovely grandfather actually

passed away very suddenly. And his name was Leo. And he was an absolute light in my life, the most incredible man. And I almost looked at this as another sort of existential point in this pregnancy of, wow, it's sort of like the circle of life. My grandfather's just passed away and I'm about to have my brand new daughter. So I decided as a nod to him that I would call her Savannah Leonora after Leo. Well, congratulations to you.

I know it's life-changing, to put it mildly, but you sound like you're coping more than admirably with it. So very best to you. What's your partner's name? Thank you. His name is Max. And all the best to Max as well and give our love to Savannah. Thank you very much for talking to us, Daisy.

Thank you, Jane. Thanks so much. Take care. That's Daisy, who was 23 and felt that sensation. And on Twitter, Jewel says, this happened to me. I did think I was pregnant and I had four negative tests done by my GP, albeit the first test they accidentally did a diabetes test. That was also negative.

I finally went to a different doctor, 28 weeks pregnant, as it happened. I was also on the pill. I didn't look pregnant. People didn't believe me. OK, at BBC Woman's Hour, if you've got an experience like that. I thought they were relatively rare, those experiences, but maybe not. Do let us know. It's Listener Week all week. Tomorrow, we're going to be talking about grave tending. We'll also have a real talk, talking to second generation immigrants about their mental health. That's with our producer colleague, Olivia Cope. Looking forward to that. And we'll discuss RP, received pronunciation tomorrow. Are you taken more seriously if you speak proper? That's tomorrow on Woman's Hour. Now, to an email from a listener called Helen, who's able to join us now. Helen, hello, good morning to you.

Hi there, good morning. Now, you wanted to talk about bulimia, and I'm just going to, if you can just forgive me, I'm just going to quote from your original email. You say, I've always found the emphasis to be on individuals with eating disorders who are underweight. I have had a severe eating disorder since I was 16, but I have never been underweight.

However, bulimia has consumed my life, my social life and my money. I've been stuck in perpetual cycles of buying food, making myself sick, going to work and repeat. I think bulimia is a hidden and incredibly secretive illness. You don't get thinner, you spend all your money on food that will be thrown up minutes later. It's tough to hear that, Helen, it must be even tougher to live through it. Just tell me a bit about how it started for you when you were in your teens yeah so I think generally it came from a point of um you know wanting to lose weight and being an environment where that was something that was important and I think from after a period of a couple of years of of not eating as much food as I should be um it seems to be an alternative that I think some people tend to lean towards is the bulimic cycle of binging and then not wanting to keep that food within you.

And then obviously you end up in a binge purge cycle. So that's sort of how it started for me. It's so easy these days to talk about the impact of social media. Now, obviously, social media was around when it started for you. Did it play a part? Absolutely. I think my generation was very much of the time where we first started using Bebo, Facebook, MySpace. And really the first time when you start projecting images of yourselves to other people and wanting that to be the way that people know you for how you look. And I think that constant comparison of photographs of people on the internet, which was also at a very sort of nascent stage definitely played a role, I think, in how I perceive myself and my body image. Was there an element of secrecy when it all started?

Yeah, absolutely. I think, especially when it comes to bulimia, that, for me, in fact, was a very secretive illness. I think it's something which is I found quite shameful I think that's generally the consensus amongst other people who have the same illness I think interestingly when it comes to restricting anorexia that is something which unfortunately people tend to be congratulated on not necessarily when people are aware that it's an illness no I mean yeah you need to emphasise that. I mean, the term congratulated is a tough one. But I know what you mean, but carry on. Yeah, not congratulated, but more from people who are completely unaware that someone may have an

illness. You know, weight loss in society is seen as unfortunately a positive thing when actually you have absolutely no idea what's going on in the background whether they have a physical illness or you know a mental illness but I think with bulimia it's difficult because from the outside you know especially from my position I've never been underweight I've never been overweight I'm very much kind of medium very normal quote-unquote looking from the outside world and so I think that makes it even more of a secretive illness, because people really have no idea of, you know, what's going on in the background. Yes, this is what you want to talk about. I think the fact that because you quote, look normal, and I'm hesitant about even using

that expression, somehow bulimia is undervalued almost, it's not seen in the same way. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it also ties into the element of, you know, being able to get support to some extent, I think, from my experience, at least, you know, going to the GP and trying to get help through the NHS, if your weight isn't of a particular, you know, you're not a particular BMI, it's almost impossible to get the level of treatment that I think you really need to break a cycle of bulimia. However, and I, it's almost impossible to get the level of treatment that I think you really need to break a cycle of bulimia. However, and I think it's difficult often to be taken seriously and perhaps for GPs to understand the severity of your illness, because physically you may not be displaying

symptoms that seem particularly worrying. And I think that element of looking, you know, quote unquote normal is something which is quite difficult to handle. Thank you very much. Stay with us, Helen. Associate Professor Lucy Serpel is from the Department of Clinical Education and Health Psychology at University College London. Lucy, how can you tell if somebody has bulimia? Good morning, Jane. Yeah, I mean, it's much more difficult, as Helen's pointed out, to notice that someone's got an eating disorder like bulimia than when they have anorexia, when they obviously lose weight and look underweight, look unwell. telltale signs. So things like disappearing off to the toilet after meals or going off to the gym after meals, perhaps food going missing or large amounts of food disappearing from the kitchen, that sort of thing. So there are signs, but I think it's really important that Helen's raised

this issue because there is a sort of belief that anorexia is a more serious eating disorder somehow than other eating disorders. And I think it's really important to point out that people with eating disorders come in all shapes and sizes, all ethnicities, all genders, and don't always look underweight. No. Can you actually have both anorexia and bulimia? Well, certainly some people with anorexia will also binge and then use compensatory behaviours like making themselves sick, but they tend to be diagnosed as having anorexia actually. But in the end, you know, we try and treat people with eating disorders rather than, you know, giving them a label, treat them as, you know, having an eating disorder that's unique to them.

So in a way, you know, the label that we give people isn't so important as, you know, the symptoms and what's keeping them going. Yeah, I mean, I don't think Helen will mind me saying this because i talked to her earlier before the program but it's a messy business bulimia isn't it it's it's actually deeply unpleasant for those of us who've had the good fortune not to have had it it's not really something we want to hear much about if i'm honest lucy yeah i mean i think that's right and And as Helen's mentioned, the shame and the embarrassment of bulimia is one of the reasons that people don't come forward for treatment. And also, as you've said, Helen, GPs aren't so good at picking it up. We're really, really trying to change that.

And I've been involved in a few different things about trying to educate GPs and primary care staff about how eating disorders come across. And certainly in the NICE guidelines, it makes clear that you shouldn't judge whether someone's got an eating disorder based on their actual weight, you know, that there are other things. So I think GPs are getting better at recognising things like bulimia. I know, Helen, you have been hospitalised a few times haven't you? When was the most recent time? Most recently was towards the end of last year. And does going to hospital help? Yes it does and I don't think there's any way I would be where I am without that. It really is an

opportunity to reset your eating patterns so you typically stay as an inpatient and I think that's particularly important for bulimia because you have to regulate your eating patterns so you you typically stay as an inpatient and I think that's particularly important for bulimia and because you have to regulate your eating patterns again um and eating balanced meals frequent meals and for me I've been incredibly privileged to have access to that through my health insurance um and I think another reason I think it's important to talk about is people who aren't in the position that I am to have health insurance covered by my work. Prior to having that insurance, it was almost impossible for me to get the level of support that I needed. I was prescribed to have, I was put on the waiting list for a weekly meeting with around 10 other individuals. And that was an hour touch point a week.

And for me, that was just not enough support so I'm you know eternally grateful for what I've been able to to have in terms of treatment and I really do think it makes a substantial impact on you know the road to recovery. Yeah I know you've been very honest about the privileged position that you're speaking from. Lucy the plain fact is many many people with bulimia would not get the sort of help Helen's had. No, that's absolutely right. It is very difficult through the NHS to get inpatient treatment for bulimia. But outpatient treatment is improving and there's increased investment. In 2015, there was a big increase in investment for young people with eating disorders,

which means that now there are specialist services across England for treating children and adolescents with eating disorders. The situation for adults isn't as good and that's hopefully going to improve in the next few years and again there's going to be increased investment because in some parts of the UK there's no specialist treatment available which obviously is incredibly important that people can have treatment from healthcare professionals who are really skilled in treating eating disorders. I know Helen you are you're one of life's high achievers aren't you and again that's something that well I mean you laugh but own it it's something that can be associated with eating disorders and you are able to work you're still working though now working from home. yes no I've been incredibly lucky um

especially with my with my job and I managed to finish university I think partly because of the treatment that I've had but yes working from home full-time um but I've actually found working from home works pretty well for me especially when it comes to my eating so that's been helpful yeah tell me about that why has it been helpful because I think it gives you the regulation you need I'm I live with my partner and um I mean obviously the downside of being together 24 7 there's also an element of um you know him being very aware of of my illness and the recovery I'm on and having frequent meals together and also just ultimately having someone there um all the time I live in a flat and um you, as Lucy mentioned, bulimia is very secretive. And it wouldn't be something that I would ever express,

especially in the company of anyone, let alone my partner. So it kind of has forced me into a more regulated way of eating meals and also, you know, eating normally, I guess. Well, that's good. And I know that one of the reasons you wanted to take part was to give hope, because I do know that we will have people listening now, perhaps whose children are going through something like this. It is a wretched experience for the whole family, as I know you'll acknowledge, Helen. What do you want to say that could give those people optimism? I think, you know, just from my own experience, I was in a point in my life where I thought this would never, ever change and I would be stuck in this cycle forever. And it has changed.

And I've still had, you know, moments of slip-ups, but I think that's all part of the journey. But my relationship with food now is 10 times better. And my relationship with my body image is getting there and I think there is hope you just need to find the right tools and the people around you to be able to you know support that recovery. Thank you so much for being willing to take part Helen and the very best of luck to you and our thanks to to Professor Associate Professor Lucy Serpel of the Department of Clinical, Educational and Health

Psychology at University College London. And I hope there'll be links of places of support for you. Sorry, I lost my way there. Places of support, links for information on the Woman's Hour website, bbc.co.uk forward slash Woman's Hour, if in doubt, just give out that. That always helps. Now, let's bring in another listener, Suzanne Taylor, who's had her life changed by lockdown. She joins us from a place I should know, but I confess I'd never heard of, in the North Manchester area, although I'm probably risking offence to everybody in that part of the world. It's called Jericho, and Suzanne's there.

Good morning to you, Suzanne. Morning, Jane. Jericho. Why is this place, is it a you, Suzanne. Morning, Jane. Jericho. Why is this place, is it a village? Is it a small town? What is it? It's a hamlet in the north of Greater Manchester. Right, okay.

And called Jericho because? Well, as I understand it from some local people, John Wesley came here. There's a Methodist church here, and the founder of the Methodist movement came here. And that's why it's called Jericho. All right. Whether that's true or not, I don't I can't put hand on heart.

All right. Well, you're one of many people whose life has been changed by everything that's happened this year. What were you doing in January and February when life was relatively normal? Right. was relatively normal um right well i've been working with vulnerable young people for the last kind of 15 years really in various different charities my job was generally as a child advocate um but then yeah what does what does a child advocate do right so um we work with usually young people in the care system or it could be children who are unaccompanied asylum seekers and it's about helping them to get their voice heard um if you're very vulnerable Usually young people in the care system, or it could be children who are unaccompanied asylum seekers.

And it's about helping them to get their voice heard. If you're very vulnerable, you know, if you're in a small group, then quite often it's difficult for you to get your voice heard and to put your point out there. So we would come in and help those young people to say what they needed to say and to get the kind of rights and the support that they needed. Right. And that sounds incredibly interesting. It's really interesting. Yeah, though presumably pretty difficult. You were furloughed. And then what happened? Yeah, so I was furloughed and I thought, right, OK, what am I going to do with all this time? And for some time I'd been trying to start or thinking about starting really a business.

And that was making and selling hats. So I hadn't actually started this business because, you know, I was working. There was always something else to do. And also, to be honest, I was quite scared of starting a business. Nobody in my family, I don't think, runs a business. We've always had a wage. And that always seemed like a very sensible thing to do. So the idea of having my own business seems you know quite nerve-wracking so I thought well you know this is a global pandemic how how kind of bizarre is that that we're living in such interesting times um as the Chinese saying goes um I thought maybe this is the time to do it like

who cares anymore like what why am I worried about failing why am I worried that this is the time to do it. Like, who cares anymore? Why am I worried about failing? Why am I worried that this isn't going to work? Just do it. You know, nobody's going to laugh at me if this doesn't work. And actually, I love making hats. Let's give it a go. And they're not just any kind of hats or yarn and they are knitted and to look at they are generally very colourful and they have what we call kerfuffles so the kerfuffles are either two or one big tassel on the top yeah so you so basically it's a tassel often with lots of plaits coming out of it so um it's they're quite eccentric they're a bit boho can i say they are quite eccentric yeah a bit eccentric maybe a little bit you know hippie i think they um give the impression of like a colorful festival yes now that's exactly I could imagine myself sitting cross-legged in baggy trousers in my luxury yurt because it would be luxury uh wearing one of your hats without question I can see that too yeah yeah okay um and has there been obviously there's

been interest people are people are buying them yeah so I've been supported by lots of friends and and lots of friends have helped me get started by purchasing hats from me which has been really lovely but I've also now started my own Etsy shop and yeah I've started to get orders I think it's going to be a bit of a slow process because obviously um it is the the summer at the moment although looking outside you wouldn't know it and so buying what is what seems like a winter hat might not be on the on people's minds right now um but I needed to be ready so that when it got to winter I was set up you know and um so winter and Christmas I'm hoping to give it a push

and you know see if people are interested right well it's just it's just a different way of living and it's an experience I guess the pandemic provided, as well as a host of challenges, it has provided some opportunities. And you've you've taken taken this opportunity. Yeah, I think, you know, nobody wanted the pandemic, you know, and I feel terribly sorry for people who have been ill or have lost people. This is a terrible time in lots of ways. But this is unfortunately where we're at. And I guess everybody has to try to make something of it. And I've I've heard lots of stories, you know, on your own show and and from friends and so on.

But people have just put themselves out there and thought, right, well, what is it that I want? That was Suzanne Taylor, who's making her own very unique hats with recycled wool. They're called kerfuffles. I looked up the origin of the word kerfuffle and apparently it's Scottish, a kerfuffle, initially. So if you're Scottish, you can take credit for kerfuffle. It just means commotion. But they're a kind of woolly commotion, hence the slightly eccentric appearance of Suzanne's hats. Now, so many brilliant, brilliant emails today

on all the subjects we talked about on the programme, so let's get stuck in walking. Caroline wanted to tell us about her sister Spud, who she said walked 4,500 miles around the coastline of England, Scotland and Wales in 1997 to 98 and raised £42,000 for the charity's shelter. Sadly, says Caroline, she died 10 years ago. To commemorate the 10 years and to bring memories of her alive again, a family group and close friends have just walked 80 miles up the Northumberland coast to Holy Island.

It was a truly wonderful experience when we all felt that she was with us all the way and it definitely brought her back into our memory. It was a very moving and memorable walk, says Caroline. I'm sure it was. Thank you very much for telling us about that. Dawn says, I walk on my own and I spend time in woods in the day and in the dark on my own. And I can guarantee it unsettles other people. But if I walk with a friend, it appears to unsettle people less. There we are. Another listener says, my friend Sue and I did 28 kilometres and a thousand metres of ascent in the Brecon Beacons yesterday. That's very impressive.

It was hard, exhilarating, peaceful and joyful. We're both 67 and walking has kept us sane for the past 50 years. One day in Wales, though, we met a couple of farmers as we set off. This is going to work. I'm giving you a warning. Debenhams is that way, ladies, they said, pointing back downhill. Just have a little moment of silence there.

We all know what we think about that. Right. Tamsin says, loving to hear about women walking. I walk alone all over Europe rather than with a companion. It's a kind of pilgrimage and I love it. Catherine says, I'm in my late 20 companion. It's a kind of pilgrimage and I love it. Catherine says, I'm in my late 20s, I'm a keen walker and I've done walking holidays and day trips across the British Isles, both solo and with friends.

One of the things which I've always found annoying, given that we're now in the 2020s, is the difference between how other walkers and people, for example in shops I visit on the way, react to me when I'm on my own or with female friends and how they react to me when I'm walking with male family or male friends. You see, we're back to this again. The looks and comments I get all seem to sum up to why is this young woman freewheeling around without a male chaperone? Who does she belong to? Sometimes I feel like they expect a male companion to come up and claim me like I'm a lost dog.

I have to say that this hasn't put me off and I've enjoyed some lovely walks in lockdown, but it doesn't seem fair that there are still these really deeply embedded ideas in play about what's OK for modern women to do on their own. I've got to say, I didn't really think this was a thing, but quite clearly it is. And it's quite frustrating, isn't it? Rosie says it was lovely to hear about Helen and Rhian on their Welsh coast path experience. My now 18 year old daughter has been walking the Cornish footpath for coast path for the last four years. I thoroughly recommend it for maintaining a positive relationship and good mental health. We've had the best times, such a

positive and also of course a cheap activity. Many thanks to my husband who is often our taxi. We've also walked the Saints Way in Cornwall and this year we're walking the Smugglers Way too. Both of these are two to three day coast to coast-to-coast walks in Cornwall. Wow, sounds amazing. Alison says, I'm walking the route taken by the poet John Clare out of Epping to Northborough. When he did it, there were no motorways, so it was 80 miles. Now it's about 140 miles to avoid the motorways and private land,

although I had to trespass on this weekend's leg as the route to the footpath was otherwise difficult. Not a great move by the government to criminalise trespass, says Alison. From Sarah, my daughter Jessie is currently walking the North Coast 500, 500 miles around the North Coast of Scotland with her friend Nina Young. Nina lost her eight-year-old sister verity to cancer and her mum laura set up an amazing charity called the teapot trust to put art therapy for children in as many hospitals as possible in the uk they're an amazing pair of

girls look them up says sarah well thank you for drawing our attention to them that does sound a really good charity um what are we so many walking ones um from sue when three friends and i were heading for 60 we decided it was time for an adventure so we headed for northern spain to tackle the camino routes for the past seven years we've had wonderful times walking for 10 to 12 days at a time averaging 15 miles a day, carrying our own backpacks and sleeping in dormitories in hostels. Good and bad, some very bad, she says. It has been a fabulous experience and a chance to pause and to think. There are few choices to make and the only thing we have to do is just walk to our destination. There's little hassle about what to wear. We take the minimum of clothing, so the choice is whatever is clean or least dirty,

and it's liberating. It's been challenging at times, but worth every step to get to Santiago and attend the Pilgrim Mass in the cathedral. Not for religious reasons, but it does have an enriching spiritual dimension. Sadly, this year's trip has been cancelled because of COVID, but roll on next year. Well, absolutely.

I think we've got time for one more. Shirley, I've walked during lockdown and I've completed the Calderdale Way. That was 50 miles. It's helped me with my physical and my mental health. I don't have a garden. I'm now going to write about my experience

of walking the Calderdale Way as a woman of 69. Wonderful hills and valleys, says Shirley. Now to pregnancy, because we talked to our fantastic listener Daisy about that. Alison says, you may be interested to know that my mother didn't know she was pregnant with me until the doctor told her she was six months pregnant and I was her third child. There's only 14 months between myself and my sister, with an older sister eight years older than me. I must have been very still for six months.

Yes, I suppose you must. Jane says, I discovered I was pregnant for the first time at almost 33 weeks at the age of 41. I hadn't felt my baby son kicking. The GP and midwives were amazing. Fortunately, he arrived a few weeks later perfectly healthy and is now 10 years old. I agree with Daisy. Nature wins and can be amazing. My brain was telling me I couldn't be pregnant as it hadn't happened after years of trying. Family and friends were amazing in those seven short weeks. That's fantastic. Nicola, this happened to me. I was 24.

I'd just started my first job as a teacher. I was really tired. I thought it was the job. It was 1997. I had an accident, a split condom, and had taken the morning after pill whilst camping in Wales. Doctor didn't want me to have the morning after pill as he said I was a perfect age for a baby. I've been asking since whether he actually gave me the real pill. That's another slice of experience isn't it? Caroline says what a lovely positive story

Daisy's was.isy had a loving partner and support from her family we need to hear more stories like this about loving and supportive families i too became pregnant with a coil in place no regrets well no i mean daisy's story was that she was on the pill and got pregnant she's now on the coil and had a coil fitted hoping that that will ensure that she doesn't get pregnant. But I think Caroline seems to be saying that the coil didn't work for her as a contraceptive. There we are. I mean, none of them are 100 percent, are they? Nobody can offer you that. Morning, says another listener.

My daughter experienced this 19 years ago. We had two months to prepare for the baby. She was obviously too late to have an abortion. So we rallied round and my beautiful granddaughter was born. It was a bit of a shock to discover that she was a Downs baby. But we have been so, so blessed to have this special person in our lives. We were meant to have to have her. And we just say thanks every day, says that listener.

So that's also fantastic. Caroline says, I'm a teacher. And a few years ago I returned to school after the summer holidays. One of the teachers was in her early 20s and was always a bit thin. She popped into my class before going on a course that day and looked completely normal. About four o'clock, the head teacher called us together

and told us that during the course, our colleague had developed stomach ache. She was taken to hospital where she was told she was about to have a baby. She had absolutely no idea she was pregnant. She gave birth to a baby boy who weighed just under five pounds. Had I not seen her with my own eyes I would never have believed anyone could be nine months pregnant and not know. But as she was thin she had irregular periods anyway, she honestly didn't realise she was pregnant at all. And just to clear up people asking about Daisy and saying, well, how did she not know?

She's an intelligent woman, she must have missed periods. Just to emphasise, she was taking the pill back to back, as she said, something we discussed on the programme yesterday. Often, if you do that, you have no bleeding at all. So there is, not always, but often you don't have any bleeding at all. So you just wouldn't know. Thank you to everybody who texted and emailed about that. Sorry, not texted, but tweeted. Thanks to everybody who tweeted and emailed about that. And bulimia, Samantha says, I'm listening to that, and I agree, it's a very, very difficult condition, bulimia. I started vomiting when I was 12 and I spent such a huge amount of time and money on food only to just throw it up.

It was dreadful when I was at university and for the years afterwards. Only when I was in my 40s did this become less frequent. Slowly, after much therapy, I became less obsessed by food. I was still overweight. I'm now 65 and I seem to have stopped binging and vomiting with no idea why. My body image, sadly, is still appalling, but you can't have everything. My younger sister died at the age of 41 from throat cancer after also having bulimia and I just feel lucky to be alive. So sorry to hear about that Samantha and I'm glad that you have overcome some of the issues that you've come up against. And from Anne, I am now 67 but I had bulimia back in the early 80s. I didn't even

know there was a name for this then. I did go to my doctor, but she didn't have any knowledge of it either and was no help. I worked my way through it, although I still think I have an unhealthy relationship with food. One of the reasons that I think Listener Week is so important is that it means that we can just give a little bit more time and a little bit more space to the real lives of people who listen to this programme. And I think that's why I'm just so grateful to everybody who's been willing to take part because it always hits a nerve. Somebody somewhere is listening and thinking yep that's me and I'm really glad somebody else is talking about

what I've been through so thanks to everybody who's been willing to come on the programme and talk. Not easy to do it particularly not now because they can't come into the studio it's all done in various different ways and it's tough. So we're more grateful than usual for the fact that people are willing to do it this year. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.