Woman's Hour - Listener Week: Women's World Cup final, Shoplifting, Heavy metal

Episode Date: August 21, 2023

For listener week you, our listeners, decide what we cover on the programme. It might not have been World Cup glory for England's Lionesses but they still made history and have inspired many along the way. To take a look back at that history, Nuala is joined by two listeners: Sue Whyatt, who played for England in 1972, and successfully got her international cap following an email to us at Woman’s Hour, and Jo Clark, co-founder of Baller FC. A listener speaks to Nuala about her addiction to shoplifting - fully aware that it's a criminal offence and not something that should be condoned, she wanted to highlight her story on the programme. Listener Laura wanted us to look at heavy metal and the role women play in the scene. Nuala speaks to Lindsay Bishop, who conducted 10 years of field work for her PhD on the subject and Becky Baldwin, a bassist from the band Fury. Sue Stewart explains why she got in touch with Woman’s Hour to tell us about the impact on her of the book Matrescence by Lucy Jones. Matrescence is the time during pregnancy, childbirth and early motherhood when women undergo far-reaching changes which Lucy Jones argues are more profound, wild and long lasting than we have ever been led to believe. We speak to Lucy and to Sue. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce00:00 Opener 02:35 Football 16:53 Kleptomania 34:43 Mid trail 35:53 Heavy Metal 47:06 Mastresence

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour and to Listener Week. This week is all about you and what you want to hear and we do have some great discussions and interviews coming up all throughout the week. But I am wondering this morning, how are you feeling? In London, it's a little grey outside, perhaps reflecting the mood a little on the Lionesses not winning the World Cup. But even if the fairy tale, as England manager Serena Vigman described reaching the Women's World Cup final,

didn't have that ending that we wanted. There is so much to celebrate. Making history, inspiring women and girls, changing the narrative, not only for women's football, but also for women's sports. So we've all been on this amazing journey with the Lionesses together. And even if you don't support England,

we have been following them and following their rip-roaring successes. So today, the day after they played in the World Cup final for the first time, what do the Lionesses mean to you? You can text the programme. The number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour.

Or you can email us through our website. For WhatsApp messages or voice notes, that number is 03700 100 444. You are also going to hear what they mean to Sue Wyatt, one of the 1972 England team, whose achievements then helped lead to the successes of the Lionesses now, and Jo Clark from Baller FC,

the women's football collective, who've been organising hugely popular viewing parties. They're both in studio with me. And can we also give a shout out to more women's sporting success? What about Katerina Johnson-Thompson claiming a stunning hepatalon gold at the World Championships in Budapest? I mean, it's this remarkable turnaround in her career and also so inspiring. So a shout out to her and to some more stories today from you.

A listener got in touch about her uncontrollable urge to shoplift. So she'll tell her story about trying to get help for her kleptomania. We'll also hear from an expert on those issues. We also have women in the world of heavy metal. So get ready for some headbanging this morning. And we'll also discuss matricence.

That's a new term for me. It's a term that describes the process of becoming a mother and how the reality stacks up against the cultural myth of motherhood. A lot to talk about. We. A lot to talk about. We have a lot to talk about. But let us begin with football. It might not have been, as we're saying, the World Cup glory for England's lionesses,

but they did make history and they have inspired so many of us along the way. Women's Hour was at a viewing party in South London held by the grassroots clubs Deptford Ravens, Lush Life and Bended Like Peckham. Here's what they got up to. Let's hear it for

the first time in nine years for the World Cup Final. Honestly, before this tournament, I would never sit down and watch a match. I love seeing Chloe Kelly with her eyelashes and her nails. Those kind of traditional women things that are always belittled a little bit or made to be less serious.

And seeing all of that and still smashing it is so great. Do people want to shout out some score predictions? 2-0! We've got 2-0, we've got 2-1. 3-1! 3-1! When's the last time an England team have gone to the final? When it was black and white.

So, you know, it's still something we have to be very proud of. Obviously, we wanted to go the one step further, but, you know, next time. We'll get them next time. Yeah, we'll get them next time. Can we have one more cheer for Mary Ups? Yeah! Cheers. For me, Lionesses are football and they are such good role models as well in the way that

they interact with each other and are able to sort of have a laugh and be human about it. Considering the lack of resources they have, they've done so well and they could do even better with more. They're just such nice people, aren't they? And I think that that's enabled everyone else that's watching them and supporting them to model a new version of football culture as well. And that trickles down from them all the way down to the grassroots that we're involved

in. And so I think that's just a really beautiful thing. If you want to get involved, just get involved. That's the best thing about women's football. Everyone will get involved. And we'll be back in four years. So, some much needed optimism there.

And I'm joined now by two listeners of Women's Hour who love football. But despite growing up in different times, both experienced barriers to playing. Women, of course, were banned from playing for over 50 years, with the legacy of that ban felt for many generations after, as we've spoken about.

And it makes the achievements of yesterday, being in a World Cup final, all the more remarkable. Many of you, no doubt, will remember Sue Wyatt. Sue was part of the England team in 1972 who failed to receive their international caps. Sue emailed us here at Woman's Hour to highlight that and the story even got mentioned in Parliament. So Sue and her teammates finally received their caps last year. So it goes

to show a little the power of Woman's Hour. Sue is in studio with us. Welcome Sue. Hi, thank you very much. Great to have you with us. I'm also joined by Jo Clark. Jo has been a dedicated follower of the Lionesses all her life, but trying to watch games at pubs, even in big tournaments, it had always been a challenge.

So Jo and her friends set up Baller FC. So it's an inclusive space where fans from any country can come and watch women's games. And during the World Cup, they've had queues around the block, I hear, and even had to find a bigger venue for yesterday's final. Welcome, Jo. Thanks so much. Such a pleasure to be here. OK, how are we feeling? Oh, obviously, upset for them yesterday, as can be seen in some of the photos of me with

tears rolling down my face. But do you know what? They've done us proud throughout. And we can't expect anything else from them. It isn't a game where, you know, oh, right, they'll go on and they'll score 10 goals or whatever. Do you know what? They played their hearts out. It wasn't for them. And Spain were brilliant.

Parabelo, I mean, she was just amazing. Got our defence in half. And yeah, they deserve to win. And well done, Spain. But obviously, we were all in tears, we were in bits because we really did expect them to bring it home I know, I did see your photo

in lots of the papers today you were watching at Wembley Box Park how was it and who was with you? Right, well we all decided that the 72 squad, those of us that are fit to travel, we've all been meeting up since the Women's Air Programme. We've vowed never to be apart

again. We will keep in touch no matter what. So there was eight of us there at Box Park. We've all got our own special shirts on, which say yes, we were the first. 1972 Lionesses. And we've had

such a reaction from all the people there, from all the fans and people, as you say, who've never watched football before, coming up to us and saying, it's wonderful. You started it. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute wonderful rollercoaster of emotion. But no, it's just been fabulous.

Rollercoaster is a good word, isn't it, Jo? How was your watching party that you were hosting yesterday? Yeah, I mean, to echo I think what Sue said, like obviously disappointed with the result, but what a summer of football it's been. And for us at Baller FC, we've just so enjoyed these incredible watch parties and having so many passionate fans and a real community of fans come and enjoy it with us.

But we need to get across how raucous these events are. Yeah, it's wild, I'd say, like very, very wild. Like there's so much passion. And I think, I mean, Sue can attest to this, like the barriers that so many women and girls face trying to play football, not just play, actually, just follow and enjoy football. And so to have a space, and we're so proud of the one that we've created at Border FC, but our good friends

at Deptford Ravens have done incredible jobs and so many other organisations also, creating safe spaces for people to come and be themselves, watch football, really enjoy it, go wild when we score. Yeah, I mean, like not a dry T-shirt, I think, in the house. And with Mary Earps is safe. It was as if we think, in the house. With Mary Earps is safe. It was as if we'd won the World Cup. With Mary Earps.

Oh, we need to speak about her, don't we? Oh, we do. Oh, she is just so wonderful. She really, and such a nice person. So you were a goalie all those years ago. So of course you have that connection. You've actually spent some time with her as well. I have, yes.

Yeah, yeah. And obviously she plays for Manchester United, so she's not time with her as well. I have, yes. Yeah, yeah. And obviously she plays for Manchester United, so she's not far from me as well. So what a lovely, lovely person she is. When we went to Wembley, she said, Sue, Sue, you can stand with me over here. And they're just so ordinary. And she's like a warrior queen, isn't she?

She is a warrior queen, ordinary yet extraordinary at the same time. Yes, that's right. And just such a kind, generous person as well. She really is with the time. You see her with those fans after the matches. She spends longer than anybody out there talking to the fans, shaking young kids' hands,

throwing her gloves to them. She knows that she is there. I mean, obviously, she wasn't straight as the number one goalie from the start she sat on the sideline like I sat on the sideline and so she knows what it's like to be on the difficult side of goalkeeping

which is often it's almost dead men's shoes you're waiting for you know so she has been just wonderful What was it like yesterday where both of you were, when she saved that penalty kick? Oh, absolutely hysterical.

Yeah, yeah. We were screaming. I mean, hardly any of us could speak yesterday. After the match, we were so hoarse through shouting and screaming, and particularly, obviously, after saving that penalty. But you know what? I thought, she'll have this. She'll have this. She is a great penalty saver.

She's brilliant. And let's see as well. Of course, there was a controversy that Nike hadn't created a Mary Earps kit. Let's see what happens next. Yes. How can they not have a kit with Earps on the back? It's just unbelievable.

I want one and that's just the start. Yes. Let's talk about you and your full kit for a second though, Sue, because you have been on a journey over this past year.

You talked about emailing Woman's Hour, but it was about getting a cap. Tell our listeners what happened. Yes, well, obviously we hadn't been given caps

in 1972 when we played and I know a lady did make us some little homemade ones because they used to give us things like Wedgwood dishes instead. And we said, no, we want a cap. And she made us a lovely cap, which I would never... So I got on to... It was just before the Euros,

and you were asking for people who had... Stories. Stories about the Euros, and you were asking for people who had stories about the Euros. And I just said, do you know, the 72 squad haven't had their cap. And you asked me to come on, and it went from there. And then, even better, when we heard that we were going to get the caps, I asked where, if you could ask about my friend Jeannie Allitt, who we couldn't find anywhere. And within half an hour,

somebody had phoned in with her email. And she's been to every single match with us. She's come over from Holland. I mean, she played for the Netherlands as well as England, you know.

I mean, it's just been a journey and a half. It really has. So wonderful. And then you did receive the caps. It was last October, right? Yes, the Wembley USA game. Between the

USA, which I actually was at, so I'm delighted to meet you in person. I saw you from a distance at that stage and could see kind of the camaraderie between the players and their families, the community and I was struck by one of the people that we heard in the clip at that viewing party

that they were talking about a new version of football culture being created. Yeah, without a doubt, I think we've certainly felt that at Baller. And I think that's something that we really want to try and promote as much as possible. You know, when we sort of thought about what Baller could be, it was really born out of not being able to find culture women's football culture and we would go to pubs and and venues and they went they weren't showing the football they didn't think it was a priority and so you know for us ahead of the euros last year we got together and we're like let's take matters into our own hands and let's put the football like front and center where it should be but let's really celebrate the culture around women's football which is, which is about celebrating each other.

And I think that really was showed yesterday after the final whistle. Of course, we were disappointed, but we went straight into party mode to celebrate what has been an incredible summer of football. So much to be proud of for the Lionesses, but also just for women's football overall. Incredible the World Cup that Australia and New Zealand delivered. Incredible to see newer nations getting further like Nigeria, Morocco, Jamaica, South Africa. Like for women's football as a whole, that's

what we were celebrating yesterday. Can I just ask what did you think about them viewing a men's game during the World Cup, the women's World Cup final? Just so disrespectful. I couldn't believe that. I couldn't believe it at all. If it was a men's World Cup,

they wouldn't have done that. Why are they putting a premiership match on at that time? This is the other aspect that struck me yesterday. I was in a pub watching. There was obviously lots of England fans, but Spanish fans as well. And I thought about that of opposing sides coming into one

space, which you don't always see with men's football? No, you don't at all. And certain bars you can't go in if you're not the home team, for example. And I take my grandchildren to the matches at City and United for the ladies' games. And it's a wonderful atmosphere. We all sit together, City and United fans sitting together, dads with the daughters, big families.

And we're all having some banter. We shook hands after the match and all left together in a really lovely, friendly atmosphere. You can't beat that. Do you think that will continue as this becomes bigger, more investments? We're going to start seeing sponsorship deals I'm sure to the

level that we probably haven't seen before. It does worry me that the fact that money will be coming into the game so much and will it start to divide us? I really hope it doesn't. I think the other thing is we need to nurture our own talent as well and not keep buying in

talent from other countries because how are the kids going to have a pathway into the WSL if they're bringing in all the players from abroad? I think they have to think that one through because that's what's happened as well in the men's game. And do you feel, though, the progress, you're looking back on the last 50 years

and we're very much celebrating the success of the Lionesses and particularly in recent years. Do you feel that the progress is moving as fast as it should be? Do you know what? Yes. But only since the Euros. I think that's been a super boost and the way the team actually put that out there that, yes, we want girls being able to play football

in every school and the government actually taking that on. I think that has done more than anything. I mean, I think it's done more than anything I mean I think it's a hundred years in the making though right like this is this progress so it's accelerating now at the rate that I think it should always have been but you have to remember that you know for 50 years like you said we were banned and then we were discouraged from playing and it's only really been in the last sort of 20 to 30 years that there's been any kind of interest and investment

and now finally now because of that investment we're really seeing the results on the pitch and of course what happens on the pitch trickles down to the grassroots level so yes um but it's 100 years in the making i think that's really important to remember yeah and obviously 30 years too late yes exactly exactly yeah it's a pivotal moment we'll keep talking uh message to the lionesses today girls you've been absolutely wonderful thank you so much for all you've done for us

proud just so so proud thank you both so much Sue Wyatt and Jo Clark and lots of listeners getting in touch a magnificent achievement

in its own right but even more so when you consider how few resources and how little encouragement women and girls get from primary school playground upwards.

Another, my name is Francesca. I'm 12 years old and I love playing football. I'm part of Riviera United under-13s team and captain of my school team. The Lionesses are inspiring as they demonstrate what dreams are made of. They train hard, play hard, and I'm so proud to think they represent women's football.

Keep it coming. 84844. As I have been mentioning, it is listener week. So we are telling your stories. And one woman wrote to us and said, I'm a middle aged 51 year old woman, a professional who would probably be classified as middle class. I've been hiding a terrible and shameful secret, which has plagued my life for as long as I remember. It's a topic that's never discussed and it's shrouded in shame. Her topic is shoplifting. Fully aware that shoplifting is a criminal offence

and not something that should be condoned, she wanted to highlight her story on this programme. My interview with Jane, not her real name, has been voiced by an actor. I was diagnosed with kleptomania a couple of years ago. It's been something that's blighted me for the whole of my life. Do you remember when it started? I was about eight from a big family, not a lot of food, so we were hungry a lot.

And so I went into a shop, saw a packet of crisps right in front of me and thought, I'm having those. Took them and went out of the shop, got away with it and then continued doing it practically every day after school on the way home. And then I got caught when I was about eight or nine and that was a really frightening experience. What do you remember from that time? I'm just thinking of this little girl if she's eight or nine. This is the 70s, the children weren't treated in quite the same way as they are now so I walked out the shop and there was a hand on my shoulder saying you haven't paid for that and I

just said no I haven't and she escorted me to the back of the shop and said we're gonna have to phone your parents and they locked me in the back cupboard so I couldn't come out and I remember banging on the door and screaming to let me out but they wouldn't. I phoned my mum because obviously I gave her my number and she was not best pleased with my behaviour at all. She was quite a ferocious lady. That's what I remember, the absolute fear and the shame when she told people that there was a thief in the house. Who did she tell? It was my sisters. I mean, that sounds like a traumatic memory, Jane. Yeah, you'd think that would be the end of it, wouldn't you? But unfortunately, I suppose I just got clever at it. I mean, it probably was different, you tell me,

but why you continued to shoplift, like a 10 year old shoplifting is quite different to a 25 year old. Was the feeling when you did it, Jane, the same? My overriding reason for doing it is because basically I was hungry and my friends would have nice packed lunches. I'm not trying to make excuses, but they'd have nice packed lunches and I wouldn't. And it was just one way of getting some food that was deemed acceptable by my peers, really. But that was when you were younger. Do you try and stop? Yeah. Yeah. And I think I was quite successful at it for a while and then my

mother died when I was in my teens and it sort of picked up again then. It's been times of crisis in my life that it has picked up but for the last two or three years I haven't been able to stop at all. So it's an impulse that you're not able to? It's an impulse control disorder yes.. But, you know, is that fear there that you'll get caught? I mean, to tell our listeners, you're now in your early 50s, you have a job, but you continue to shoplift. I do. And my fear is that the only way it's going to stop is if I get caught, get arrested and lose my job

and all the possible friendships that I've gathered over the years as well because I know this is something that is obviously wrong, is obviously illegal, but I can't see any way out of it. I would understand why people are so horrified by it. Have you tried to speak to anyone? I mean, would you even be able to speak to your employer about this? Oh my gosh, no, no. I'd be out of a job straight away. I'm a secondary school teacher, have been for a number of years and fairly well respected within the profession. And when do you think now you shoplift? You alluded there that in times of stress you seem to turn to it. That's what it is at the moment or you tell me. I know that when the cost of living crisis began trying to find food that was actually enjoyable got more and more complicated and also my job particularly at the moment is pretty stressful. I mean education is in a bit of a state at the moment and teachers

bear the brunt of it so I do feel that has got a lot to do with it. The actual taking of something gives you a psychological boost, for want of a better word. And for that short amount of time, you actually feel good. But then that's taken away pretty much immediately by shame and fear of being caught. The shame that you feel when you've done it is just horrendous. What about that shame? Let's talk about that a little bit as well, because you've had two recent incidences as well that maybe illustrate as well your experience for our listeners.

So the first instance, I took a bottle of Coke and I'd taken some other stuff because I was making a meal that night for some people. And as I walked out of the shop, the security guard said, you haven't paid for those items. And he was a big guy. And I said, no, I haven't.

I said, what's going to happen now? And he says, I want you to pay for the items. I said, thank you. That's really kind. So he walked me over to the till and then said, we won't take it any further, but please don't come back again. His kindness actually made it worse in a way because I thought I've just done something that's hideous. So I came away feeling shame for nicking the stuff in the first place and then almost sorry for the guy that he's having to confront people like this. And I got home and I

did bawl my eyes out after that and I've never been to that shop since and that was a couple of years ago now just walking home feeling that everyone's looking at you everyone knows that you're not who you say you are and then actually when you get home if you have got away with it not even being able to eat or prepare some of the stuff that you've brought because the guilt is so much and the second incident the second one was worse I just had this urge to take things off the shelves and put in my bag it was so obvious I was doing it I went to the pet area to get dog food and I was literally stuffing it in my bag. I knew I wasn't going to get away with it. I just couldn't stop myself. And I walked to the counter, paid for some of the

stuff that I got. I went out of the shop, hand on the shoulder, could you come with me? We know you haven't paid for that stuff. Yes, of course. Follow the lady through the shop past all the tills. You're escorted to the back room, which terrified me. I knew they wouldn't lock me in, but I don't like being locked in places. They took my address. The store detective was lovely. The manager wasn't quite so obviously. They decided they wouldn't call the police, told me I was banned from the shop and I'd receive a letter saying that I'm banned and then eventually escorted me out of the shop past the tills where I'd previously just bought some stuff from the lady oh it was so utterly humiliating and all the time I'm just apologizing I'm so sorry I'm so sorry it was awful really really bad And I think I took the next day off work because I was still so shaken by it.

And from those incidences, was there a turning point at all? Yeah, yeah. That was the turning point to get help from the GP. Had you spoken about this before with them? No, no, never. What happened there? He put me in a list for the NHS talking therapies. But the list was very, very

long. So I asked for a referral to a psychiatrist and I'd pay for it myself, which is what I did. And then the psychiatrist, along with little other diagnosis that go along with it, said I had impulsive control disorder, kleptomania specifically, and very, very difficult to treat apparently. And that took three sessions actually to get a diagnosis. And then they recommend a therapist to do the work with you. By which time the NHS had said, right, we've got a space. So I went through the NHS for that one, had three sessions, really, really good. And then the therapist left. They gave you another therapist. That therapist left. And they gave me another therapist.

And each time you get a new therapist, you have to relive everything all over again. Right from birth up to where you are now. And I just thought, I can't do it. I'm not doing it again. So that was it. I just left and cancelled everything. I tried to cope with it on my own and how's that going not particularly well to be honest I try actually summer holidays help because

during a school day I stop at the shops and get my lunch every day I'm not doing that so if I don't leave the house it's not a problem but I don't want to become a hermit you know I just as I was preparing to speak to you, I saw a couple of headlines. One was shoplifters could be handed prison sentences under revisions to the crime bill. And then the other was jailing shoplifters will not address root causes.

That was according to a senior Tory. I mean, what do you think about that? That is absolutely terrifying, to be honest, because when I spoke to one psychologist, our relationship broke down because she said, if you tell me because when I spoke to one psychologist, our relationship broke down because she said, if you tell me that you're going to continue, I'll have to report you. That's utterly terrifying. But I do know you don't get a prison sentence the first time you do it. So I think there's a root cause why people do it. Of course, there's a core of people that do it

because they say, bugger to the system. This is what I deserve, this is what I want. And then you've got the people like myself who desperately do not want to do it, but have got a massive compulsion. I think it's a bit of a public health issue, but it's got two sides to it. Do you want people that don't shoplift to try and understand you? Yes, I would like that. I did try to broach the subject with one friend, not telling her it was me we were talking about. And she was horrified that people would do that, that people would shoplift.

And I'm looking at her thinking, but I've been your friend for years. This is me. I'm trying to open up to you. But the risks are too high. And what about those, perhaps like your friend that you mentioned, they hear of shoplifting and they're like, this is such a drain on the economy, affects people's lives,

this makes products more expensive, the amount of shoplifting that does go on. If they're not feeling that sympathetic towards you, what would you say? I totally agree with them. It is a drain on the economy, increased food prices, but none of that is enough for someone who's got an impulse control disorder to stop. And for those that say you have to get help, it's up to you to take control of that aspect? Well, yeah, I tried. And I completely, completely agree. I wouldn't have phoned up sitting here telling you all this

and not had tried to make some sort of resolution a listener that we are calling Jane not her real name who got in touch with the program well I want to speak next to Dr Heather Sekira consultant psychologist and member of the British Psychological Society who has treated people with kleptomania. Welcome, Dr. Heather. I mean, you're hearing some of the story that Jane was telling us there. How common is this? We really don't know how common it is because we haven't done enough research on it. But the stats at the moment suggest it's about 0.3% of the population, with about three times more women diagnosed with it than men. We could hear also Jane's struggles there, trying to get it under control.

How do you understand the underlying reasons for it? It's complicated and certainly no one size fits all here but what people typically describe similar to Jane is a background a childhood background of resource scarcity frequently poverty or events that they've experienced as a child where they feel powerless or trauma events such as childhood sexual abuse eating disorders is also very common in people's childhoods. It was interesting. Food did come up a lot in our conversation related to the aspects or the particular products that she took. But this is different, right,

to another person who is going in to shoplift for financial gain. Oh, absolutely. So you can think of this bit more like being addicted to stealing. Very different from shoplifting. Perhaps an example works here. So somebody who steals perfumes to sell on eBay, then that's clearly something for personal gain.

Somebody's getting something out of it. But if a different person steals those same perfumes and feels this kind of instinctive urge to steal, can't think of anything else until they do it. And then it builds up, builds up. They steal the perfume. They may experience a brief sense of thrill or excitement like Jane did. And then it quickly fades into this huge shame or guilt. And frequently people don't use the items that they've stolen. They may put them in a drawer where they've

got a hundred other items exactly the same. I've met people who've left them on buses or given the items away or sometimes they even take them back to the shop to try and get rid of that guilt. So it's really all about that impulse or urge that they're unable to control. What about with Jane, coming back to the food again? How do you understand that? Well, Jane's describing a lack of resources in the past. So she said she came from a very large family where she didn't have enough money.

She envied other children's lunchboxes. And so again, she's describing that scarcity mindset that's often there in people with kleptomania. Now, Jane's a teacher now, she can clearly afford crisps or all the food she wants. But nevertheless, that scarcity mindset is still there for her in part of her brain, even though the healthy part of her brain knows she can afford it. But it's as though part of her has got stuck with that resource scarcity mindset. And also, the pattern of resolving her difficulties, those really uncomfortable feelings through stealing and getting that thrill is still very much there. And that seems to be what's driving it. And of course, then she feels the shame and the guilt.

She feels awful again. And that drives the behavior further because she's trying to get rid of those really uncomfortable feelings. And she has sought out help, but it hasn't worked for her so far. She said there was one psychologist who refused to work with her if she continued to shoplift. So she's stuck in that aspect as well. I mean, what would you be advising her to do? That's really hard, yeah, absolutely. There are therapists out there who do understand, who do feel compassion, who would be able to help her. So I'd really urge her to try again, to reach out. CBT is the therapy of choice here. CBT helps give us the tools to regain control over these impulses. So that is cognitive behavioral

therapy that can be talking and trying to get to the root of issues? Yes well first of all it helps us recognize the triggers and the emotions that underlie a stealing behavior in the here and now then it helps us understand why we have these triggers and emotions. And then it gives us the skills to manage the impulses and modify the behavior or put different behaviors in there in place. Other ways of dealing with really uncomfortable emotions in a way that doesn't have the negative consequences that Jane's describing.

And is there much success in this area? It's hard to say because we really haven't done the research on it. So I think if people get the right therapist, somebody that really understands them, somebody who's compassionate, certainly not a person who's condemning in any way like that. But it's through that combination of examining your thinking and then modifying the behavior over time that you really build up that foundation for long-term recovery. And what about the original catalyst for Jane to get in touch with us that she felt she couldn't speak

to anybody about this? Because there is often shame with addictions as we know, but we are getting better at speaking about perhaps alcoholism or gambling, for example. But I don't think I've heard it spoken about so much when it comes to something like this.

No, most people who have this feel huge, huge amounts of shame and there's very little understanding about it in the community. So the more we can talk about it, the more we can help people understand that this isn't something people choose to do. Again, it's like being addicted to stealing, like other addictions. And it's just a way of people trying to manage really uncomfortable behaviors. So if we can get people understanding it more, they can come forward and get help. And, you know, learn that there is a recovery out there for them.

Dr Heather Sekira, thank you so much. Consultant psychologist and member of the British Psychological Society. Now, do remember, and thanks to Jane, I should say, not her real name for sending in that idea. Remember, we do have a whole week ahead of your stories, your ideas, your suggestions. And if there's something you feel we've missed, do let us know. Maybe it's a powerful personal story. Maybe it's an unusual hobby. Something you've seen in the headlines

that you'd like us to discuss. This is your opportunity to get it onto Woman's Hour. Text us 84844 or indeed social media at BBC Woman's Hour or email us through our website. I'm asking you this morning about the Lionesses, how it has impacted you,

this rollercoaster of a ride that we've been on to you. What do they mean to you now after that final yesterday? Have a moment to reflect. Here's one. Cried with joy at the Lionesses' achievement. Didn't matter that they were defeated at the final. Their achievement is unmatched. So good to see women's physical bodies being celebrated for strength and skill as opposed to their sexuality. Also great to see all the little wannabe lionesses, all the cubs on the high street in their England kits. 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Okay, our next listener, Laura,

has told us that despite our coverage of varied music genres, we've less regularly covered one in particular. Can you guess? Heavy metal. And as a by-product, women's important place within the heavy metal scene. We have not covered either, says Laura.

So today is Metal Day. Well, it might surprise you to know that heavy metal has over 125 sub-genres. My next guest has made it her mission to understand them and where they come from. In a moment, I'll be speaking to the anthropologist Lindsay Bishop. For her PhD, Lindsay conducted 10 years of fieldwork embedding herself in heavy metal culture, touring with bands and also attending gigs. So we're going to hear from Lindsay. And I'm also joined by Becky Baldwin, a bassist from Birmingham. She plays in the Midlands based band Fury and has toured with Merciful Fate and that's a group that's influenced the likes of Metallica.

Brilliant to have you with us, Becky and Lindsay. Becky, where did it start for you? In terms of like listening to heavy metal? Loving it, yeah. Yeah. I think for me, I was always a little bit, I'd never really found much of a community when I was a child and like my

friendship groups were quite like, they kept moving, you know? And, but I was kind of interested in darker themes. I became more interested in like horror films and this kind of thing, like the Goosebumps books and things like this. And so when I then came across heavy metal from getting like Sky TV and having like music channels on there and was kind of exposed to Kerrang and Skuzz and those channels that played alternative music. And also getting the Internet around the same time. This was like the early 2000s. It really opened my eyes to different kinds of music.

And there is where I found my community of friends. And yeah, it just really the music spoke to me a lot more. And what about you, Lindsay? Where did your love begin and your in-depth research? That's two different dates. Yeah, I come from a slightly older generation than Becky. So for me, it was vinyl album covers that really sort of drew me in my my mum's record collection and seeing like Black Sabbath and like Becky was saying it's like that

the darkness really drew me I always preferred like the the Evil Queens in Disney and you know it's then and then it was a rock and roll kind of music but I was always craving something heavier and heavier and that's like when I became a teenager and I had a bit more autonomy about what I was listening to and was looking at like the front cover of Kerrang and then you know it's just like I like the free cds that was that was the thing that got me as well that was my only access because we didn't have the internet and we didn't have mtv and so um yeah it was just looking for something like the rock wasn't quite doing it and it was just to like it was almost like seeking out a drug to get as heavy as possible okay well let's play a little bit of becky's stuff now here's a blast of rock lives in my soul by

becky's band fury becky that is vocalist Kim Jennett there. Tell us a little bit more about this song that is very much female focused. So the song, it was just an idea that we wanted to collaborate with someone, someone else in the music industry. And we were looking at some of the bands and who to work with.

And like Kim was doing some great stuff and we thought, okay, it'd be great to work with a female musician as the other vocalist. And then we were thinking about duets and how do duets work in a metal context? Because, you know, so often they're like love songs. And we were like, what about something that's like angry? And like, they're kind of shouting at each other about stuff, you know, kind of like, I guess Meatloaf,

like has done that kind of thing back in the day but um we were like well what would they talk about and we thought well let's talk about uh sexism in in the music industry in general um and then actually uh uh our kind of new uh co-vocalist naya she penned most of the lyrics for that uh from her own experiences and in the music video before we uh own experiences. And in the music video, before we, when we were getting together the music video, we asked women just in our circles in the music industry if they'd experienced any sexism during their work and, you know, asked them to share their experiences.

And we used some of the quotes from what they said and put them in the video to just make it a little bit more striking and just show like, this is real, this happens, this is what women working in the music industry are facing every day. So for example, one of the lines that got me there is that I'm not here to be your girlfriend.

Is that something that comes up that people are expecting the girl to be the girlfriend or the woman that's around? Yes, yeah, absolutely. Like there's been so many times um at venues where i've just not spoken to like the the men in the band will be spoken to and i'll be kind of ignored and assumed to be you know an extra like a groupie or like just not part of the band and there's been times where i've applied to a band is advertising for a bass player and I'll respond to it and they'll say oh uh no sorry we uh we all have

wives and girlfriends we don't want you to play bass because I was like that's not what I was asking for and like you know I would have a boyfriend too and like I was just asking if you need you need a bass player and I'm just saying that I am one um and I don't know like yeah people don't really they just feel very surprised I suppose when they see that there's women in the industry and it just makes it harder for us to establish ourselves and Lindsay what did you find because you were looking into heavy metal for 10 years what was it like when it comes to inclusivity? Well, I think what Becky was talking about is a really important distinction to me

because it's the industry versus the everyday lives of the majority, the millions of people who are listening to heavy metal are not reflective of each other. I think in the industry, certainly. So there's the thing to think about with heavy metal is that it's not its own culture, there's no original kind of island of heavy metal and then it's spread out here so every heavy metal community all over the world is

coming on top of a sort of parent culture or mainstream culture if you like and while that can allow some really interesting things like new musical instruments and the evolution of different metal subgenres, that also means it's vulnerable to some of the problems of that, you know, that community. And quite frankly, it's just a global issue, it's harder to be a woman. And therefore, I think that's where a lot of the sexism comes from. And my challenge has been, is it coming from heavy metal? Is it part of the culture? Is this sort of a gender biased part of the culture? Or is it something that's bled through?

I understand coming from society into that music or that arena, so to speak. But let me, Becky, for a moment, also mention to my listeners that you did tour, I mentioned it briefly an iconic band uh merciful fate and that was they were specifically looking for a female bass player i think i think at first they weren't really they were just looking at bass players and um but their management brought forward a list and they weren't sure about the bass players on that list but they did notice it was all men and then they were like well let's expand our search or i mean our it has the management only given me male bass players for a reason and they i don't know they just thought they'd expand

the pool and make a a point of uh looking at female bass players and um and yeah that's where um i was found by um by Hank Sherman who's a guitarist who said actually I've seen this girl playing uh bass videos on online and she likes that kind of classic heavy metal so I think that would be a really good good thing to do and uh and yeah they agreed to it and how was it it was fantastic yeah was insane. I've never played shows of that standard. Like it was between two and five thousand capacity venues every night. And, you know, it was a big step up for me. And I'd never expected to play with a legendary band like a band I was listening to since I was a teenager. And I don't know, they're a band that influenced my favorite

band Metallica so yeah it was just crazy and uh you know seeing meeting all the people there and everyone was so kind to me and it was great because it was something I was very nervous about because I've had these experiences I guess at the kind of more local level than the independent level of touring I thought like perhaps it's going to get is going to get worse? Or is it going to be actually easier dealing with professionals in a kind of higher up place of the industry? But actually, you know, everyone was very kind. There were still a few things that like would come up. But I don't know, you know, like, just when you just walk into a room and someone says, Oh, who's this? Oh, what's your name, love? And you're just like, oh, my God. Like, just treat me like a band member.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. You mentioned Metallica. Is that for listeners that aren't heavy metal fans? Is that who you would point them towards? Yes. I think, you know, it's a very great kind of gateway band to get into heavy metal. And then you can kind of, they've got a lot of different eras as well.

So they've got heavier stuff and softer stuff. So I think, yeah, that's a great, great place to start. Becky Baldwin, thank you so much. Lindsay, your suggestion for our listeners that haven't listened to heavy metal? I think there's so many to start with. I mean, Black Sabbath are classic, but I think given our emphasis on women, I would have to suggest like Myron or Ginger are doing some really interesting things just now

if you're looking for more women in metal. Lindsay Bishop, thank you so much. And thanks also to our listener, Laura, who suggested that particular topic. Now, our next item was chosen by listener Sue Stewart, who got in touch with Women's Hour to tell us about the impact on her of the book Mattressence by the science and nature writer Lucy Jones. Now Mattressence is the time during

pregnancy, childbirth and early motherhood when women undergo far-reaching changes which Lucy argues are more profound, wild and long-lasting than we've ever been led to believe. Sue is with us as is Lucy. Welcome to you both. What about that word, Lucy, matricence? I'm pronouncing it correctly? How would you say it? I don't think that's the right way. I tend to say matrescence. Matrescence, yeah. You can link it kind of with adolescence. Oh, I like that, yeah.

Which is more familiar. So what do you, I was reading about it being like the birth of a mother. Right. So matrescence is a word that was first coined by the anthropologist Dana Raphael in the 70s. So quite a long time ago, but it's coming into kind of common parlance and as an emerging concept in the last really five or 10 years. I discovered it when I was my first child was about nine months old. And I had a sense that something pretty major was kind of happening to me. My brain felt different, my mind, of course, my body, my relationships, my sense of self. And at the time, I was kind of ashamed by how big and seismic and drastic I experienced this transition.

But then I read this word matrescence and it was the first time my shoulders kind of dropped. And it describes, as you say, this process of becoming a mother. And it just normalised for me the kind of heft of the experience. And I wanted to make sense of why the experience of matrescence is so big for women, but also so kind of underwritten. Why do you think that is? Well, I think that feminism has won so many rights and ways of being in the world for women. But care working and caregiving and the maternal experience has been quite disavowed and neglected. And if you look at Western culture and philosophy,

there's a spectacular disavowal of the maternal in the very foundations of our thinking and being in our culture. But I think and I hope that part of the fifth wave of feminism might incorporate caregiving and care work and maternal health and well-being. One of the reasons why I wanted to write this book was because I looked around me and I saw so many new mothers, often at breaking point really struggling um in matrescence is a is a powerful experience but it's also a vulnerable experience um and i think only now are we starting to hear more stories about what that's like and what we need to support women in their

matrescence let me bring in sue sue why did this book to touch so much, do you think? What was it that resonated with you? Because, as Lucy says, so little is spoken about in a really deep way about what Becoming a Mother is about. And she was the drawcard for me at the Wealded Literary Festival. Maternal ambivalence, that chapter really grabbed me. Let me get Lucy first too. How would you explain maternal ambivalence? Well, I think it's so interesting, isn't it, that we have the phrase maternal ambivalence, because of course, ambivalence is threaded through all of our relationships in terms of mixed feelings. Your life is a roller coaster and it's complex emotionally.

Now, how could this most intensive of human relationships not include some mixed feelings? A push-pull, I think. A push-pull, exactly. And obviously there's so much joy in having a child, but there's a lot of stress, there's lots of worry, a lot of fear, you might be physically recovering from childbirth and pregnancy. There's the agony and the ecstasy. And I guess maternal ambivalence describes that. But I think what is what is not good is that these feelings are outlawed. In some ways, you know, we're not always allowed to speak of them. And that can lead to kind of feelings of shame and women feeling that they can't talk about their experience that there might be something wrong with them for finding aspects of motherhood difficult. And you had your children Sue 50 years ago right I

think you're due to become a grandmother perhaps soon? Yeah not 50 years ago 37 years ago. Oh sorry forgive me. Maybe your child, yeah, I'm probably doing my maths wrong. But did you feel that maternal ambivalence? I mean, was part of that, that was speaking to you? Oh, definitely. And it was quite, quite frightening, actually, to be so cross at this little individual and at society and at things in general yet and not

knowing actually how to make anything better maybe for the child but yet to have such deep love yes deep love so coming back to that as well that maternal ambivalence that comes no doubt um after the woman has gone through these profound physical changes, obviously, but also societal, mental. You also talk about the brain and what happens in those early years. Right. So when I had my first child, I had this real sense that my brain had changed. It felt very different. And at the same time, there's been this incredible flourishing of the science of motherhood and particularly neuroscience around the maternal brain and the parental brain. And what we are discovering is that pregnancy renders significant, consistent, pronounced

changes in the brain. It could be seen as a kind of fine tuning of synaptic connections to enable the mother to do what she needs to do, care for the child. However, we also know now that the father's brain changes anatomically as well. And of course, caregiver brains will change too. We evolved in caregiving networks. The way we live now is very kind of historically unique. Children will have been raised by lots of different people, so it makes sense that we are all born with the neural circuitry

in order to care give. But the neuroscience of the brain, I think, really deepened my understanding that this was a seismic change, which also involves plasticity of the brain, which can make a more vulnerable transition and life stage for the woman. So the information is out there and you did lots of really interesting scientific experiments on yourself as well, whether it was about breast milk or other aspects of becoming a mother. But why do you think then that it's not common knowledge? You also, for example, put out there,

you know, the pain during childbirth and what that's for and how much you actually know about it before you go through it yourself. Why do you think there's that withholding, particularly like among women, right? Because we've all got sisters, mothers, daughters, friends. Yes, I think my experience was that what I saw depicted culturally about motherhood didn't match up in any way to my actual experience. What I saw was this kind of maternal ideal, very sentimentalised, the kind of natural in scare quotes, mother who's kind of pastel hued and always happy and so on. Whereas my experience of it was it was very wild and almost like adolescence quite kind of disturbing but I think that there are these oppressive maternal ideals culturally which serve to kind of silence and invisibilize care work you know there's a lot of taboo there's taboos around

the maternal body and the experience of childbirth, of breastfeeding. And also I think there is a fundamental philosophical disavowal of our vulnerability in our culture. You know, we've had to, as women, we've been allowed into a male world. And part of that has been to kind of disavow our reproductive capacities and so on. However we are vulnerable, infants are vulnerable, new mothers are vulnerable and actually you know if you look at the way society treats mothers you wonder you know how have we got to this point where 20% of women are facing mental illness in the first years of motherhood. How have we built a society when we don't value care, caregivers?

Why is care so invisible? I would say that the economic piece is really important there. You know, care work is not part of GDP. Nursery workers are living in poverty. We do not value care in our society. And that's a problem. Lucy Jones, mattresses? Mattressence.

Mattressence is the way to say it. Mattressence. Thank you so much. And thanks to Sue Stewart for bringing it to us here on Woman's Hour as well. Coming up on day two of Listener Week, listener Liz Cookman

asked us to feature the women involved in the fighting in Ukraine. There are around 16,000 of the soldiers fighting out there are female, 5,000 on the front line. We'll talk about them. I will see you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. The missing Korean telecommunications tycoon was found dead this morning. A guy you've never seen before offers you 10 grand to look after an envelope and you take it.

Tell nobody, not even your girlfriend, okay? There's something I need to tell you. It'll save a lot of lives if you help us. This is all a terrible mistake. We just want to go home. We don't want to... Shut up! Available now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.