Woman's Hour - Listening to survivors, Women in gaming, Frozen 2

Episode Date: November 23, 2019

Criticised for not expressing sympathy for Jeffrey Epstein’s victims in his recent interview with BBC's Emily Maitlis, Prince Andrew has since told friends he ‘regretted’ not doing so. We consid...er how victims and survivors are so often an afterthought when allegations of sexual assault are being discussed.French women don’t get fat. They look effortlessly chic and coiffed at all times too. We all know the cliché of the perfect French woman – but how much of it is true? And how much does it impact French women who might not fit into this mould? Alice Pfeiffer, author of the book Je ne suis pas Parisienne, takes us through the history of this problematic icon.Women make up 28 per cent of the police workforce in England and Wales, but in ranks of chief inspector or above, women only represent 20 per cent.? As all 43 forces attend the first Gender Equality Summit, we ask how can they encourage women to see policing as a viable career.Rhiannon Giddens is a Grammy Award winning musician who went from opera to folk. She explains why she made the move, and the inspiration behind her new album, There Is No Other.Earlier this month, McDonald's Chief Executive Officer Steve Easterbrook was fired for having a consensual relationship with a subordinate. But what are the rules where you work? And how easy are they to navigate? We hear from two listeners and Chantal Gautier, who specialises in workplace psychology.As statistics show 46% of gamers are women and the number of women working in the games industry is also growing, we ask how are women re-shaping the landscape of gaming?And as Frozen 2 hits the cinema, how does it measure up to the first instalment? Bidisha and Rhiannon Dhillon discuss.

Transcript
Discussion (0)
Starting point is 00:00:00 This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
Starting point is 00:00:41 Good afternoon. If you're a woman and you're French, you'll know what's expected of you. To be slender, perfectly coiffed and chic. What impact does the classic cliché have on real French women? The music of Rhiannon Giddens, trained in opera but known for American folk music. Two police officers, one's the husband and father, the other's the wife and mother. You know, I'm at work, my husband's a police officer too. Guess who the school and nursery ring when the children are sick?
Starting point is 00:01:15 I'll give you a clue, it's not my husband. What changes might be achieved as a result of this week's UK Policing Gender Equality Summit? After the dismissal of the McDonald's chief executive as a result of what was considered an inappropriate relationship with a member of his staff, we've your views on managing romantic relationships at work. Women in the gaming industry, as players and creators,
Starting point is 00:01:42 what's their impact as their numbers grow? And Frozen 2 has hit the cinema. What is the story of Elsa and Anna really all about? It's about sisterhood. It's about a kind of matriarchal familial type of feminism, which means sticking up for your women friends and recognising who's the bad boyfriend and going through adventures together. It's a week since Prince Andrew's Newsnight interview was broadcast and the ramifications have rarely been out of the news. A number of the charities he supported have distanced themselves and he's announced he will withdraw from royal duties for the foreseeable future.
Starting point is 00:02:33 It's also said that he now regrets the fact that he expressed no sympathy for Epstein's victims in his interview. Another woman has come forward to accuse Jeffrey Epstein of sexually abusing her when she was 15, and she has called for Prince Andrew to share what he knows about his former friend. Gloria Allred is a lawyer who's representing some of Epstein's victims. Many of them were very traumatized by what they suffered as a result of coming into contact with Mr. Epstein, and that harm continues today. So we're filing civil lawsuits, and in addition, the criminal investigation is a serious one and continues. And if there's sufficient evidence to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, I have no doubt that criminal charges then will be filed against others who
Starting point is 00:03:17 have conspired with Mr. Epstein. And I also would like Prince Andrew to really feel what these victims have suffered, because I feel in his interview that was broadcast on the BBC that, you know, he seemed to almost, except for Ms. Roberts, not even mention the victims and how much they were harmed. And there are so many of them. They haven't received the whole truth. They haven't received justice. And it's time for him to help. Well, Madeleine Black is an activist, author and survivor of sexual assault. Lizzie Denning is a journalist, the vice chair of Peterborough Rape Crisis and the founder of Survivor Stories, a website which allows women to share their experiences. How surprised was she to find Epstein's victims had been largely left out of the early media coverage of Prince Andrew's interview? I think, sadly, this is quite a common theme at the moment. I mean, I would say that, obviously, it's quite new for the media
Starting point is 00:04:20 to have to deal with such a volume of cases like this, which is so high profile. So I think it's sort of feeling its way and I'm hoping things will improve. But I think I'm not alone in thinking that a lot of the conversation has surrounded specific men of power and how they feel and how it's affected their families. And often what is lost is the stories of the victims.
Starting point is 00:04:48 And it's sort of imbuing these men with a secondary form of power, which is over the narrative surrounding their own cases, which is obviously a bit disappointing. Madeleine, would you agree with that? Absolutely. I do believe that when we give the voice to the perpetrators, that we silence women or victims even more. It makes it even harder for them to find their voice.
Starting point is 00:05:12 So what should we do? What should we do now? Programmes like this can have conversations like this, but what about the wider world? I think it's about listening. It's about being open to people and listening and creating an environment um where we don't we're not quick to victim blame i think a lot of um women and men and people of all genders who have been survivors of sexual violence um struggle to share their
Starting point is 00:05:37 stories even among their own family and friends because of certain narratives um which are just rife throughout society, such as, you know, were you drinking, what were you wearing? And it's very tedious and, of course, completely irrelevant. And one of the motives behind my website, Survivor Stories, is to create a sort of a pool of these stories so that eventually, hopefully, it will shut down some victim blaming
Starting point is 00:06:07 because if you've got people of all genders from all backgrounds, then it becomes harder to pin down incidents to particular behaviours or particular appearances. Madeleine, you are a survivor of appalling sexual assault. You are very open and speak out about what happened to you. Why? Well, it took me a long time to find my voice,
Starting point is 00:06:29 but once I found it, I just refused to be silent because it was a crime that was committed against me and I don't believe I'm my body or the things that were done to me, but it was the shame that kept me quiet. I thought if people knew what had happened to me that they would look at me differently or think about me differently or wouldn't even want to know me. But I realize now, took me ages, but the shame never belonged to me. It always belonged to the perpetrators that 100% of all rapes is only caused by rapists, nothing else. And I'm not what they did to me.
Starting point is 00:07:01 I'm not my body. But I want to speak out to really help to end that shame and the stigma and the silence and to help other people find their voice. Because every day I will get people messaging me that have heard me speak or read my book and saying, you know, I'd love to like your Instagram page, but I don't want people to guess that I'm liking your page because I've been raped as well. And that's really sad that the shame is huge for people to carry. And they keep on carrying it. They keep on carrying it.
Starting point is 00:07:29 So the impact of all this publicity surrounding Jeffrey Epstein, Madeleine, what is the impact on women like you? It just angers me. It doesn't make it harder to sleep, for example? Is this constantly on your mind at the moment, or is it always on your mind? No, I mean, I was 13 when I was gang raped, so it's a long time ago, and I'm 54, and I've worked it a lot, so I can really speak and write about it because I am so OK.
Starting point is 00:07:55 But, you know, it really just fuels my motivation to speak out more for all the people that can't find their voice. So the fact that during the course of that interview, and Emily Maitlis did give him the opportunity, Prince Andrew didn't really engage with the suffering of Epstein's victims. He didn't mention it at all. It was just unbecoming behaviour.
Starting point is 00:08:16 Well, he did at one point, I think, agree, and I think he used the term quite rightly when Emily Maitlis raised the fact that their voices were now being heard and their stories were being told. You know, it often feels too little too late. Our people are now speaking out and saying, quite rightly, because now they've been associated with this person,
Starting point is 00:08:34 you know, it feels too little too late. It should have been the first thing. Well, it's hard not to get into all the interview. Yeah, it's not not to get into all the the interview uh yeah it's not right lizzie yeah i mean i completely agree i think it's definitely too too little too late um i would say as well that that one of the one of the problems that the media has in general in talking about these issues is um it's very keen for um survivors to be named and photographed and um while it's very keen for survivors to be named and photographed. And while it's incredible to have women like Madeleine, who I hugely admire, who are willing to do that,
Starting point is 00:09:13 I think often what gets lost is the millions of stories from survivors who, for hundreds of reasons, choose to remain anonymous, which I think is a completely respectable decision. And that's another element to my website, is that I am inviting anyone to share their story and they don't have to be named, because I think those, particularly the stories that get lost,
Starting point is 00:09:39 if there's not a kind of a face behind them. You, I know, also have an issue with language. I think the media is not immune from criticism here. I think even the language used by the BBC sometimes can simply be wrong. Absolutely. I think any mention of sex in these sort of interviews, I find, makes my hairs on the back of my neck stick up
Starting point is 00:10:00 because sex, of course, implies consent. It is an insult to to people who are able to enjoy consensual sex to to equate that with with rape and trafficking which could not be further removed um so i think i think people need to be um a bit more astute and a bit more thoughtful because it's it's the kind of death of a thousand cuts things like that are what trickle down and then stop people sharing their stories because the word sex implies he said she said whereas rape that's not the case it's it's a violent act against a person um so um yes i think accurate terminology is one of my
Starting point is 00:10:40 bugbears certainly madeline i agree. When you hear sentences like, he forced her to have sex with her, that's forcing someone to have sex, to me, translates as rape. Why can't we just say what it was that she was raped? Madeleine Black and Lizzie Denning. Now, I remember a book that was published in 2004 whose title was French Women Don't Get Fat. They are, of course, always perfectly turned out with an immaculate hairdo, beautiful makeup and the most chic of accessories. The reputation of the perfect French woman is, of course, a cliché. But
Starting point is 00:11:19 where does it come from and what impact does it have on French women who are maybe not quite so perfect? Alice Pfeiffer is the author of Je ne suis pas Parisienne. She was born in Paris and educated in England. Her master's degree from the London School of Economics is in gender studies. She explained to Jane how France is much bigger and more diverse than the Parisian stereotype might suggest. I think the issue with the cliché is what it says between the lines, you know. So supposedly it's a very free look that can be adapted to everyone. It's a philosophy of life.
Starting point is 00:11:57 But if you have a closer look, it's basically a skinny woman who wears what they call a boyfriend shirt. So she's petite and she's also heterosexual. And she wears stiletto heels by the Eiffel Tower before seeing her lover. So she only commutes in small distances and probably doesn't use public transport.
Starting point is 00:12:18 You know, she wears red lipstick or doesn't touch her hair. She's probably white because the, you know, the rouge Parisien, as we call it, Parisian red only works with the limited skin tones. And so it's, if you look closer, basically what you see is a straight bourgeois, heterosexual white woman
Starting point is 00:12:37 who supposedly speaks for the whole of France, even though we're a highly diverse country, this is the only face we see. And we just, and there's no room for anyone else. You're right, of course. It is a much more diverse country than that cliche would have you believe. I think you would also say, to a degree, it supports the patriarchy. Can you just expand on that?
Starting point is 00:12:58 There's the idea of the male gaze. I think of, unlike Britain, we're a country that's highly macho, and we're Catholic, supposedly not, but we're still very much a Catholic country. Officially secular, but. Officially secular, but in the norms and in the interactions, we're very macho. And there's a myth of the bohemian artist like Serge Gainsbourg,
Starting point is 00:13:20 who's extremely macho. So it's all codes to fit a macho behavior for men. So it's the idea of a woman who's lighter, who's more petite, who's extremely seductive, which is completely anti-feminist, if you think about it. So it's a woman waiting for a man to,
Starting point is 00:13:37 you know, make a move, essentially. Well, I don't think it was that long ago we featured it on this program, actually. The incident of harassment, a young woman who was, well, she didn't really pay sufficient attention, or that was what he felt, to a man who fancied her. Just to remind people of what happened there. He walked past a woman in a terrace of a coffee shop and tried to hit on her. She didn't react or she sort of pushed him away. And then he just slapped her and started hitting her. And then she basically created a structure for women to call out street harassment.
Starting point is 00:14:09 But what happened was that a gang of privileged women who were exactly like Parisienne all signed a petition called Le Droit d'être importuné, so the right to be bothered by men, because they thought it was a beautiful tradition that needs to be kept. Yes, I do remember that. And that was deeply unfortunate. And I think it involved quite a number of older celebrity French women. All prominent, all white, all privileged.
Starting point is 00:14:33 So there was definitely, for the first time, there was definitely like a fracture between women, between the women who take public transport and who actually do suffer from men hitting on them, and then the tiny, tiny minority of women who speak for everyone else. Why don't you come and live here? I might. And then become a Parisienne and be perfectly obnoxious about it. Yes. Well, I mean, you seem to think that Britain is better.
Starting point is 00:15:02 I don't know. Are you convinced it really is? I think in terms of seduction and in terms of men-women relationship, I think you see a lot more diversity in bodies. You see a lot less harassment or street commenting. In France, there's a proximity that you have from being a Latin and a Mediterranean country. So men will actively comment on your appearance in the street. In my book, I tell the story of when I came back from 10 years in england and i ordered a pint and fries other you know the british diet and careful yeah and and um and the waiter told me off because he told me it would make me fat and sorry okay let me just stop you there you are a grown woman ordering a pint and some chips yes and a man thought it was okay to challenge that he i wanted a second serving and he just said oh no i'm with him now
Starting point is 00:15:51 oh you wanted two helpings yeah exactly see all my fault and um no he just tapped on his hips and said oh mademoiselle don't uh you'll scare all the men away so So I think in regards to Britain, I'm not saying it's perfect, but at least there's less pressure put on women by men actively and shamelessly. Remember, we come from a tradition of Serge Gainsbourg, who recorded all sorts of naughty stuff. But no, I think the figure of the artist and the bohemian passion is less present. Yeah, no, Britain is a little bit calmer when it comes to accepting other women's bodies.
Starting point is 00:16:30 You see a lot more different, you see different bodies in the street. I mean, I have been, I love France. In the south of France, I have to say that women aren't necessarily any more than I am. They're not stick thin. Because Paris and France, like you were saying, are two different things. Two different things, okay. If you come to Marseille, there's a completely different kind of woman because they live by the beach, because of a million different factors.
Starting point is 00:16:52 So I think the aim of the book was to remind people that we're a highly centralized country, but there's activities and people and culture and things happening around the country. And yet when you look up or you read any of the literature that's been written about French women, it always means Parisienne and nothing else. Alice Pfeiffer. A conference took place earlier this week with the title The UK Policing Gender Equality Summit.
Starting point is 00:17:21 It was the first to tackle the subject and all 43 forces in England and Wales took part. It's more than 100 years since women were first admitted to the Metropolitan Police and of course their commissioner, Cressida Dick, is now the boss. So you might assume the battle's been won. Women make up 28% of the workforce but only 20% of the ranks of Chief Inspector and above are female. Superintendent Mars Ockwell is from West Sussex Police and Detective Inspector Liz Warner is from West Mercia. She started the hashtag Uncover Your Potential campaign and works in adult vulnerability and safeguarding. Jane asked her how her campaign came about. Back in January this year I saw a tweet from a lady
Starting point is 00:18:14 to Westmids Fire and Rescue and the tweet said that that morning her four-year-old daughter Esme said that she wishes that she was a boy because she wanted to be a fireman when she was older. And that makes me angry. It made me angry. It upset me. And the way that West Midst Fire and Rescue responded was to put together a 20-ish second clip of female firefighters saying hello to Esme. And I saw that tweet. I saw that the uptake it had from the public
Starting point is 00:18:42 and the effect and the impact it can have on on young people and I thought I want to do that for the police and you did and I did and what happened so um we uh we got some volunteers from the police force in West Mercia and Warwickshire police uh these are from um volunteer roles firearms officers, dog handlers, detectives, etc. We went to Worcester University and their creative media department put together for us a one-minute video showing women in traditionally male roles within the police. Okay, can I stop you there? I mean, forgive me for my, it's probably my own ignorance, but you work in adult vulnerability and safeguarding, which I would imagine is actually exactly the area that female police officers specialise in. Is that right?
Starting point is 00:19:32 Yes, it is. I'd say safeguarding per se, maybe not so much a frontline response role or detective role. Doesn't mean it's not important, of course. Of course not. But throughout my career, I never really considered going into roles such as firearms or roads policing. And whether or not that's because that's not my skill set, I don't know. But it's just something I didn't consider. Is that significant, Miles?
Starting point is 00:19:56 What do you think about that? I think it is. I think what we find is actually a lot of the sort of gender stereotypes that men and women conform to within policing tends to dictate the type of areas that they go into. So we have real challenges in terms of the proportion of women, for example, in specialist roles such as firearms, and that really can translate into the culture within some of those departments as well
Starting point is 00:20:22 and become a self-fulfilling prophecy in terms of certain parts of the police service that women feel that they're not potentially welcoming even though they do want to go into those areas. Have you ever felt that you have spoken to a woman in a way that wasn't acceptable or perhaps underrated a woman's capabilities when you think back over your police career?
Starting point is 00:20:43 I'd like to think not, but I can't say the same for all of my colleagues, probably. You know, I have three sisters. I know you're actually one of triplets. I'm one of triplets, yeah, so two triplet girls. And hopefully I'd like to think that I value women in my life. I bet you've had no choice, to be honest. Absolutely, absolutely.
Starting point is 00:21:04 But there is a real impact, presumably, in the sort of policing that occurs on our streets. If women don't feel that their work is valued or they feel there are certain parts of policing that aren't suitable for them, there's going to be an impact, isn't there? I think that's absolutely right. us as the police service in terms of getting legitimacy with our communities that we actually reflect the communities that we serve and that we are sensitive to their needs and if we've got certain parts of our service that is heavily mal-dominated for example then we're probably not doing as good a job as maybe we could do in terms of protecting those communities. Liz have you ever felt that people have not valued your your input you ever felt ignored? Not not directly no however you know the police force are should be a reflection of society there is you know there is overt sexism of course there is in society however there's also
Starting point is 00:22:03 hidden sexism that that unconscious bias and if that's in society then certainly there is in society however there's also hidden sexism that that unconscious bias and if that's in society then certainly it is in the police force um but i wouldn't just say that any influence on women in policing is from the police force directly if i talk from personal experience you know i've got three three children three boys and when I had my children suddenly all these other influences from society were impacting on my life so you know I'm at work my husband's a police officer too guess who the school and nursery ring when the children are sick I'll give you a clue it's not my husband so it's not necessarily same rank as him or are you I am now yes you are okay carry on so um so it's not necessarily about what we just experience in work.
Starting point is 00:22:46 It's about how we're pigeonholed into a role by society. And so it's up to us to go to the schools. And, you know, that's just one example. And say, actually, you can ring my husband when the children are sick because we both work. We're about to hear, actually, after I finish speaking to you, from a woman who is suffering, has suffered for quite some time with PTSD after a period of service in what was, when she first started, the RUC and became the Police Service of Northern Ireland.
Starting point is 00:23:15 And she does talk about the machismo and the culture of her working circumstances, Miles. And that can be a very corrosive and destructive one, can't it? It can, and I think that gets to the heart of part of what we're doing, particularly internally with addressing cultural issues and gender imbalance within our police services, because our officers and staff experience on a daily basis really traumatic events, and it's really important actually that they're able to talk about their feelings and how situations have affected them and actually that's a benefit to women but also to our male colleagues as well. And in terms of roles like armed policing is there any reason why a woman couldn't do that job? I mean I'm talking purely in terms of strength I'm talking purely in terms of strength. I'm talking about being able to carry something for long periods, for example.
Starting point is 00:24:07 No, not at all. I mean, I think, you know, traditionally some of those areas, probably there were explanations as to why women may not be able to do certain things. There were excuses rather than... Absolutely. And when you drill into them, actually, you realise that, of course, women can do it just as well as men. I think you're talking about a whole range of subjects today, everything from encouraging more women to apply for promotion in the civil nuclear constabulary, which a lot of people don't even know exists.
Starting point is 00:24:33 These are the people who guard nuclear facilities. Yeah. And are there many women in that particular branch of policing? There are women in there. But again, that's an armed service, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary, just as Police Service of Northern Ireland, for example, are an armed police service, and they manage to have fairly good representation of women or similar to other police forces.
Starting point is 00:24:56 And you're also encouraging people to talk about the menopause, Liz. Why that? Because it's a really important part of... It's the reality of what we go through as women. And if we want to recruit and maintain 50% of our workforce as women, then it's a topic that we need to talk about. It affects our day-to-day life. You know, we now talk about maternity and there are policies and procedures and guidance in place for maternity. But actually, it's one thing to recruit women into the police force, but it's another thing to retain them.
Starting point is 00:25:29 And so it's really important that we support all our workforce. And would that be a simple case of a woman perhaps going through the menopause and feeling anxious and incapable for whatever reason and just perhaps needing a period of support at work while she went through it? Absolutely. And it's also about being able to have that conversation. Yeah, to acknowledge it in the first place. Of course, and be able to go to your boss, whether that's male or female, and say, you know, I'm experiencing menopausal symptoms,
Starting point is 00:25:55 I might need some support. But how many people in the police and outside of the police are confident enough to have that conversation? Because as a society, menopause can be a dirty word a lot of the time. Detective Inspector Liz Warner and Superintendent Miles Ockwell. Now I honestly never thought I would get as excited by a folk singer as I have been by Joan Baez for the past 50 odd years But then I heard Rhiannon Giddens. She studied opera, but then took up the banjo, the fiddle, and American folk music. Why the move from opera to folk?
Starting point is 00:26:35 Well, you know, funny enough, it is still around. I'm actually doing my first Bess in Forging Bess next year. But I just kind of, when I was doing that, I went, what can I offer the operatic world that a million other sopranos can't offer it? And so when I found the banjo, I found something that I could really contribute to in a way that was unique. And that was adding to the conversation in a positive way. You got a huge response to your previous album, Songs of Our Native Daughters, where you and three other women of color set poetry that was written during the period of slavery to music. Why was that such an important project for you?
Starting point is 00:27:12 Well, I have to say that most of that was a completely original material. The words were original. The inspiration was historical. And it was an important project for me because the voice of the black woman, of the woman of color, has traditionally been sublimated or subjugated or silenced or invisible, but her role in the creation of the United States is pretty massive. And there's just a lot of stories that need to be told. So it was a really wonderful opportunity to gather together three other sisters and just sit and make some songs that really mattered to us. It seems like it's important in your music
Starting point is 00:27:53 to tell stories. There's an attraction about sort of protest music. What are you trying to say with your songs? Well, for me, it's really shining a light where a light hasn't been shown very much. It's the thrilling thing about what I do for me is finding those stories that need to be told and that really show what the reality of, you know, the formation of the United States is, of, you know, the history of what's going on now.
Starting point is 00:28:26 You know, there's, I talk a lot about, you know, slavery times from the United States, but there's people who are enslaved right now, millions of people all over the world in bondage. So these things, history moves in cycles, and the more we can understand about what's gone on, the more we can understand what's going on right now. Now, this latest album, which came out earlier this year in May is entitled There Is No Other, which kind of sounds quite romantic. The other has got a capital O. So tell me about what you mean by it. Well, I capitalise that, you know, specifically, I don't want people thinking this was a record of romantic songs, you know, because there's been a lot of talk of othering and how that is the first step to dehumanisation, which is the next step after that is things like slavery, genocide, and we see it all over the world now. But it's
Starting point is 00:29:09 something that's been a part of human nature, unfortunately, for a long time. But the flip side of that is that we are all incredibly connected, and that we've been migrating and moving and affecting each other being affected by each other since the very first mass migration out of Africa. So a really easy way to show that is through music. And so that's what the whole premise of the record is. Tell us about the song that you've chosen to perform for us today from your album. Well, this is actually a traditional song. The album is a mixture of traditional songs and originals.
Starting point is 00:29:40 And this one in particular is one that's very well known in the States. It has, you know, could have roots in, you know, Scotch Irish. It's one of these that is, everybody kind of claims a piece of it. And it has a lot of different traditions in it. And putting the banjo and the accordion together really pulls out a lot of, I think, that feeling in this song. You mentioned the accordion, and I should, of course, mention that also in the studio with us is Francesco Torisi, who has collaborated on this album and who's going to be accompanying you on the accordion. So let's hear it, Wayfaring Stranger.
Starting point is 00:30:16 I am a poor wayfaring stranger Travelling through this world alone There is no sickness, toil, no danger Not fair land to which I go Rhiannon Giddens spoke to Andrea Catherwood. She played the banjo and sang and Francesco Teresi played the accordion. The song is Wayfaring Stranger from their album
Starting point is 00:30:56 There Is No Other and they're now on tour in the UK and Europe. Still to come in today's programme, women in the gaming industry as players and Europe. Still to come in today's programme, women in the gaming industry as players and creators. What impact are they having as numbers increase and the arrival in the cinemas are frozen too? What really lies behind the success of the story? And a reminder that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at two minutes past ten during the week. All you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast.
Starting point is 00:31:29 It's free. You can find it through the Woman's Hour website or indeed BBC Sounds. Early this month, McDonald's chief executive officer, Steve Easterbrook, was fired for having a consensual relationship with a subordinate. But what are the rules where you work and how easy are they to navigate? Well, for some, the fine line between flirting and harassment in the post-hashtag-me-too era has become a little bit confusing. Chantal Gauthier specialises in workplace psychology and she's a lecturer at the University of Westminster. She joined Jane to take your calls and first we heard from Amy
Starting point is 00:32:12 who had a relationship with a senior member of staff when she was younger. I was 19. It was my first job at a big resort. Which was difficult. my first sort of job at a big resort um and um yeah um which was a difficult and i mean i knew we were married and i went through a lot of turmoil nobody to talk to about it and when i eventually sort of plucked up the courage to end this it got very strange he would come down to where i was working regularly uh he would leave messages he would ring me constantly um it was yeah it was a really stressful i ended up moving away um i mean it gave me the push to go to university which was good in the end but um it was and it bothered me a lot now because i did go back to this workplace
Starting point is 00:32:57 about five years later maybe longer uh and i did open up then to my manager about what happened and he's still working there and I was worried. Sorry, the guy who'd been in that relationship with you was still there? Yeah, yeah, he's still there now. Oh, is he? Right. OK, and possibly still behaving in that way? Yeah, I think he's a serial fangirl. He's a lot of seeds, most fast at home and go, young girls for first job.
Starting point is 00:33:24 And when I returned to the workplace, he would keep me... When I worked, I had nothing to do with him, you know. And he would come down and make unnecessary visits to where I was working. You know, and I told my boss that it was something that I wanted, you know, to support with if I was going to return and nothing... Yeah, it was really stressful and it bothers me a lot now because I did engage with it, but I do feel I was...
Starting point is 00:33:47 I don't think that is too strong a word, judging by what you said. Let me just put that to Chantal. We're talking here about, and I totally get the corner's point there, Amy, she used, it was her first job. It was sort of flattering to have this man paying you attention. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Starting point is 00:34:08 I mean, this, I think, is a really good example where there is an unhealthy power imbalance between two people. In this case, Amy was vulnerable. She was new. She didn't have much experience. And she was coerced and intimidated and had obviously nowhere to go to to to actually pull away from that did you tell anybody amy um eventually i sort of opened
Starting point is 00:34:32 up to my mom and she was very unsupportive as well she was sort of you know well it's your fault you you know it was just sort of like you know tough get on with it you put yourself in that situation so it was very and i was sort of resented myself for many years for it because it was like, oh I brought it all on myself but as I got older and I realised actually no, I was young and naive and didn't so it does bother me a lot
Starting point is 00:34:56 yeah. Well thank you very much for talking about it it shouldn't bother you, you did nothing that you should be ashamed of or worried about now but it is interesting that Amy's mother's point of view Ch Chantal, wouldn't have been uncommon. It still isn't actually uncommon, is it? I wonder if that's a generational issue. I mean, going out with someone much older, you're young, you know, what are you doing?
Starting point is 00:35:15 You know, think about it. You know, what are you putting yourself into? I don't know. I find that quite interesting. I mean, as a mother, surely you would support your child. You'd hope so. Let's talk to Samuel in Gloucestershire. Samuel, good morning to you. Yeah, so one thing that is being admitted is, you know,
Starting point is 00:35:33 the power dynamic in an office environment. So I worked in a relatively small office of about five people managed by a woman. And to be honest, there was a quite odious man who was always ill very rarely seemed to be in the office and other people needed to take on his workload and then after about six months there was a revelation that she was in a relationship with him so the office manager was in a relationship with him now it doesn't really matter how that is um you know the revelation come yeah people obviously immediately felt that there was some sort of favoritism well if he was constantly off sick and was never there it does suggest that she was at
Starting point is 00:36:12 least uh softer and kinder to him than she might have been to the rest of you but then if you go to a senior management team and then you've got a senior manager be it male or female who's in perhaps relationship with someone more junior and you know even if they are being promoted on their merits you know the the lack of disclosure or even the fact that it's disclosed when they're in this relationship can be perceived quite badly and i think often that is another reason why companies are a little bit wary well they're right to be wary aren't they yeah mean, that again is the grey area. When there's a power imbalance, imbalance,
Starting point is 00:36:49 and someone does get promoted, is it on merit? I guess, but at the same time, you could argue, we're always referring to the power balance as if the person who the subordinate is actually not in control of their own destiny, that they're vulnerable. And that's not necessarily the case either. If the relationship is hypothetically consensual, you know, they're solid, you know, they're in the relationship for real proper reasons that they are in love with each other. I mean, it's a...
Starting point is 00:37:21 Well, they don't have to be in love with each other, to be fair. Well, yeah, but can it, yeah, but can it not be possible? In terms of promotions and in terms of appraisals, you'll get someone else to do it. Yes, be grown up. I mean, you can't ban it. And also, I think, Jane, we need to think about that we're supposed to be, we're asked to be more human at work.
Starting point is 00:37:42 We're supposed to be more emotional. So what comes with that are relationships. Samuel, what did you want to say? Well, I was going to say, you know, in an ideal world, we all have honourable outlooks, but, you know, humans are flawed, very much flawed. And sometimes, and I'm not saying this with everyone, yes, the power dynamic might differ
Starting point is 00:38:03 in that the person who's the subordinate may see it as an opportunity to advance. I mean, you know, if you look at all the MPs and politicians and the trouble they get themselves into right now in the papers, you can see exactly where this power dynamic might differ and be used to advance someone else. But again, without the disclosure, or with this disclosure,
Starting point is 00:38:23 both elements can be very challenging. And that was Samuel, and we also heard from Amy, along with Chantal Gauthier. Lots of you emailed about this subject, but really didn't want us to use your name. One email said, why doesn't anyone ever discuss the relationships between heterosexual men where I work? A younger, underqualified man has been mentored and promoted by his older best friend. Nobody's raised an eyebrow. If that younger man had been an unqualified woman, there would have been an outcry. And rightly so.
Starting point is 00:38:58 Someone else who didn't want their name used said, I work in archaeology. It's very common for people to get together. And I am myself dating my third archaeologist. It's common because during field work we all tend to spend a lot of time together both during the working day and socially. Also we have shared values
Starting point is 00:39:18 since most of us care more about heritage and environment than financial gain and also like going to the pub. I would say in our profession it's normal and could not be restricted by the management because we would be disgusted to be dictated to in that way. And finally an email that said I work in a female dominated profession whilst in a junior position got into a relationship with a male senior leader. We're still together and have a young child with another on the way. We told our employer within two months of getting into a relationship and the experience was and still remains the single most damaging experience of my life. We were gossiped about relentlessly. He was cast as a sleaze whilst I was openly described as a slut,
Starting point is 00:40:08 the insinuation being I had slept my way to the top. Obviously we both left, but I do feel as though much of the discussion on this topic focuses upon how difficult it is for the employer and not upon how awful it can be for the individual's inner relationship. Now, it's long been assumed that computer and phone games are pretty much entertainment for young men and often they are pretty violent, involving lots of shooting. But recent figures from the Entertainment Software Association
Starting point is 00:40:40 show almost half of all gamers are female and that there are more adult women playing games than boys under 18. And the number of women working in the games industry is also growing up from 4% to 14%. The global gaming industry was worth an estimated $137.9 billion in 2018, which makes it bigger than the film and music industries combined. Well, Mariam Dijgalavita is a journalist and one of the founders of Game Workers Unite UK. Jane asked her why women's voices are starting to be heard in the industry now.
Starting point is 00:41:21 As any cultural outlet, we see bit by bit, women's voices being heard and being seen. This is now something that the film industry and the Hollywood is pushing for. And us in gaming thinking, you know, we are even bigger than you guys. And yet a woman's voices is hardly ever heard. So only 15% of the games released in E3, which is the biggest exposition of video games in Los Angeles, were non-combative, you know, games that are not to do with war. So there is such a poverty of stories. We've got to be a bit careful here, I guess, because some women will enjoy playing those games. Oh, I'm one of them. Quick champion, fragging, I love it. All right, okay. But what do you think women would enjoy more? Some women would enjoy more.
Starting point is 00:42:05 Again, 100 percent. So this is a difficult conversation, right? Because, you know, on one hand, I want to say, you know, we need more story. We need more narrative driven games. We need more, I suppose, sensual and and I suppose deeper stories. And that will bring in women. That is clearly a stereotype. I'm sure more men would be interested in that, as well as not all women are, you know, that's their cup of tea. But that's precisely it. There's just such a poverty of stories altogether. There's just, you know, we don't have enough voices from, you know, so let alone those, that 14% of women working in the video games industry.
Starting point is 00:42:44 Some of them probably are not the artists as such. They probably are in quality assurance or marketing. So not all of them even get to create stories, let alone women of colour, let alone non-binary people, let alone obviously working-class women. We just don't have enough voices there. And I am actually quite optimistic because the growth is so huge. Well, I feel your passion.
Starting point is 00:43:09 I'm blown away by it. Women who say, oh, I don't do gaming, but they might be the women I see on the tube every morning playing games on their phone. They are gaming. Absolutely. Yet they wouldn't call themselves that. There is a certain element that, yes, as we see,
Starting point is 00:43:24 women most of the time if they play those puzzle games they do it on the way to somewhere or to relax from something which is also a very gendered uh role to be in i suppose you know they don't necessarily see themselves as gamers because they don't do it socially with other people or they don't log on to the forums or or you know or esports events that are happening. So they do it very, very separately from the everyday. Right. And presumably, we're not that far away from esports being in the Olympics, are we? I mean, that will probably happen relatively soon. Yes, there are murmurings about that in the next decade or so.
Starting point is 00:43:55 In a way, I see it as a step backwards because I think... So the beauty of video games to me is that you don't have to be in the same locality to be playing with someone else. So, you know, for instance, I don't know, Palestinians and Israelis couldn't be in the same server or Ukrainians and Russians. I think that's something that we ought to emphasize for our older listeners. It's not actually for loners anymore. Maybe it used to be, but now you can play with loads of people all over the world. A hundred percent. And whereas now I think with the Olympics, we'll have to, again, add this sort of nationalistic
Starting point is 00:44:25 angle to it, which I think is a step backwards. So tell me about some of the games up and coming that feature women in roles I might be surprised by. Again, there is a sad poverty of games that would feature flawed women. A lot of the time we see, you know, women in action games and or, you know, so yeah, women protagonists that are perfect in one way or another. But what we need are women that, yeah,
Starting point is 00:44:51 can make mistakes. So Her Story is a very fascinating game that actually uses filmed images. It has nothing to do with computer-generated imagery. It's just film that deals with issues of domestic violence. Last of Us is a beautiful portrayal of a father-daughter relationship. And the daughter is the protagonist, who is flawed, who is growing through teenage years and is trying to figure that all out. Yeah, so I think we just need to, I'm hoping for more stories of women that are not the action figures.
Starting point is 00:45:30 Yes, okay. I mean, the Lara Croft is, I gather even she has modified her appearance over the years, or she's been modified. Is that right? Yes, correct. I had the first iterations of Lara Croft feature, you know, with a very stereotypical figure
Starting point is 00:45:44 and that has been subdued but yeah so we are taking steps steps forward and I'm hoping that with narrative in the future there will just be difference but not only just women but different types of women coming from different places in the world from different classes and from different experiences. So the more women involved in the industry, the more it will change and the more it will appeal to younger women and indeed older ones. 100%. So there are 215 gaming-related undergraduate courses right now in the UK. 215 game-related undergraduate courses in the UK.
Starting point is 00:46:19 And I'm just really hoping that anyone listening here would, well, women particularly, would look into really their career. Mariam Dijgalavita and Women's Hour will be exploring stories and experiences of women in gaming in the new year. Now, I have no doubt the cinemas across the land will be busy this weekend as families queue to watch Disney's Frozen 2. Its predecessor, Frozen, is the most successful animated musical of all time. And its impact wasn't just financial. Some fans called it the most important feminist film ever made. Well, Elsa and Anna are back, and Anna is happy to remind Elsa of why she should be taken seriously by her older sister. The kingdom is not safe.
Starting point is 00:47:14 Find who is calling to you. They may have answers. I'm going with you. Anna, no. Excuse me, I climbed the North Mountain, survived a frozen heart, and saved you from my ex-boyfriend, so, you know, I'm going with you. Anna, no. Excuse me, I climbed the North Mountain, survived a frozen heart and saved you from my ex-boyfriend. So, you know, I'm coming. That's normal. Well, Rhianna Dillon is the film critic for BBC Six Music and Badisha is a journalist. Did she see Frozen as a feminist masterpiece?
Starting point is 00:47:44 It was definitely a girl power classic. That's what I'd say. It's as far as you'll go. It's as far as I'll go. But I think that's actually great for the audience it was targeted at. The young girls in particular went mad for it. Why? Because it's about sisterhood. It's about a kind of matriarchal, familial type of feminism,
Starting point is 00:48:01 which means sticking up for your women friends and recognising who's the bad boyfriend and going through adventures together. So now we see in Frozen 2, there are all these bits of dialogue where one sister is saying to the other, but I'm going to come with you. I'm your sister, but you're my sister. You can't do this to me. So they keep saying that. And while looking into each other's eyes in a really concerted, loving, sisterly way. Have you got a sister, Bidisha? I do not. I'm an only child, which is obviously the best kind.
Starting point is 00:48:28 I look endlessly into my sister's eyes. She'll be listening now. Is it a good film, Rhianna? I know you've seen Frozen 2. Yes, I have. So I was a huge fan of Frozen, very excited about seeing Frozen 2. And the animation is absolutely stunning. They really have raised the bar with this, especially with Elsa's sort of magic powers. However, if you can fathom out the plot of Frozen 2, you're a better woman than I am. To be honest, I never understood these films
Starting point is 00:48:52 when I had to take my own kids. I really didn't. They always shove in the occasional adult joke, don't they, to keep you awake. Oh, they definitely have those. And they have them in this one too. So there's this excellent one that we were talking about earlier. Repeatable?
Starting point is 00:49:04 Oh, absolutely. It's not that much of an adult joke. All right, thank you, Petit. You don't know how adult I am. Brian Adams is kind of very well known for his, what shall we say? Operatic music videos. Thank you. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:49:17 And so Christoph has one of those, basically. Is he the reindeer herds person? Yes, he is. Yeah. Played by Jonathan Groff. And brilliant singer, but it's just so well done. Where obviously little children are not going to understand the reference at all. of those basically he has a reindeer herds person yes he is yes played by jonathan groff and uh brilliant singer but it's just so well done where obviously little children are not going to understand the reference at all but you know we have like jonathan groff sort of character fading
Starting point is 00:49:33 over reindeers and who are his backing singers and there's a point at which you realize that the characters in frozen 2 know that they're in a musical 100 and so there's what do you mean by that well everything goes quiet and then before the big number each of the characters even though know that they're in a musical. 100%. What do you mean by that? Well, everything goes quiet and then before the big number, each of the characters, even though they're cartoons, their face begins to contort and they sort of move centre.
Starting point is 00:49:52 Move into position. Exactly, what you're doing with your shoulders. They move into centre stage and they start sort of doing the Streisand hands, the full Broadway show thing. Exactly. It's weird that there's no applause at the end of each number
Starting point is 00:50:05 because they're almost waiting for it. There's a pause for applause. Well, to be fair, you see it with snarky, snooty film critics, don't you? There's never any applause in those screenings. There will be down the old view, I imagine, over the weekend. Oh, yeah, I hope so because it is a really fun watch, I think. And like you were saying, it does still pick up on those ideas of sisterly love. There's this whole theme running through where people are really afraid of Elsa's magic.
Starting point is 00:50:29 They think it's too much. And for me, it was kind of reflective of people telling women to be repressed or suppress their voice. And to just see Elsa's magic really come through with such power was beautiful to watch, actually. I know a lot of people saw an LGBTQ aspect to Frozen. Can you just remind us what that was, Bidisha, or how it was perceived to be? Absolutely, and I do think there's something to that. So Elsa always felt that she was different from other people, that she had to hide who she was,
Starting point is 00:50:57 that she should be ashamed of who she really was, that she was literally in her room slash in the closet. I actually think there's a lot of weight to that interpretation. And what's really positive for me about this second film is that she doesn't want to and shouldn't have to bend herself out of shape to conform to the mainstream world. What makes her different is also a source of delight for her. It's a source of power. She feels much more natural when she's in the natural world mixing with all different kinds of people so the courtly world of the castle and being in the royal family is nothing compared to those situations where she can choose who her friends and family are she can be who she really
Starting point is 00:51:36 is and that's when she feels most like herself yeah i mean i have to say will any of that be picked up by the average six-year-old on sat afternoon? You know what? For any six-year-old that feels different or wants an adventure, they will respond to that. They'll say, hang on, I can be the hero in my own story. And I do think they're setting up Elsa to be a superhero. And maybe the next film will just be a superhero film called Elsa. Arguably, it should be. I would love that. It's quite interesting to see, I suppose we were left
Starting point is 00:52:05 with that happily ever after ending of Frozen and then to see that actually Elsa was still quite unhappy after the happily ever after. It was really refreshing to see that. Well, she had to find a feather, actually. But she doesn't need one, which is so brilliant. I mean, I was really hoping there was a moment in this where I thought she was finding a girlfriend
Starting point is 00:52:20 and it was a flicker of a spark, but perhaps not enough. I think Elsa's true life partner is the world. So all the way through Frozen, you hear this sort of call to adventure, and you realise that even though the castle is very large and luxurious, she really wants to break beyond those walls. And actually, even if she gets a love story in some sort of later film, I think she'll always choose independence and power
Starting point is 00:52:46 and exploration it is still a disney product rihanna isn't it and i'm speaking on behalf of those parents who will feel forced into taking their kids over this weekend and the coming weeks as we head towards christmas and that's before you get onto the merch so how are we really feeling about this i mean it's true. I think they even sort of poke a bit of fun at themselves in it. There's a couple of scenes where Olaf skips past, wearing the little snowman that has been brought to life. Snowperson?
Starting point is 00:53:16 There you go, Jane. Brought to life by Elsa's magic. And he skips past them wearing a little Elsa dress that we've seen so often in little girls at Halloween or, you know, any dressing-up box around the country at the moment. Just because they're now prepared to laugh at themselves doesn't make it right, you know. They're still making tonnes of money out of people.
Starting point is 00:53:36 And in many ways it's quite traditional. So both of these girls are traditionally not just pretty but beautiful. And now that they're a little bit older, you see that Elsa has this great adventure and she's like the Cate Blanchett, Cate Blanchett mated with a Barbie doll in Fairyland. This is what you would get. She has all of these gorgeous outfit changes,
Starting point is 00:53:57 which are like a sort of ice dancer on speed. And you just know that every single one of those outfits is going to be rendered in a kind of you know sequined nylon in time for Christmas. Bidisha and Rhiannon Dillon on Frozen 2. Now do join Jane on Monday when she'll be attempting to burst myths around the morning after pill. When a journalist, Rose Stokes, wrote about her experience of getting pregnant after taking the morning after pill and what it revealed to her about how this emergency contraception works or doesn't, the response was huge. So we'll be looking at the
Starting point is 00:54:39 myths around this particular form of contraception and its marketing for emergency use. That's Jane on Monday morning, two minutes past 10 from me for today. Enjoy the rest of the weekend. Bye-bye. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

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