Woman's Hour - Live from Glastonbury with Self Esteem and Jamz Supernova

Episode Date: June 27, 2025

Woman's Hour is live from Worthy Farm. Anita is joined by BBC 6 Music's Jamz Supernova, who talks through the women she's most excited to see perform this year and discuss the meteroic rise of Doechii.The musician, songwriter and actress, Rebecca Lucy Taylor launched her solo career as Self Esteem in 2017, won the 2021 BBC Music Introducing Artist of the Year Award and received a nomination for the Mercury Prize in 2022 with Prioritise Pleasure. She discusses her new album - A Complicated Woman – and what's planned for her performance tonight on the Park Stage. The American singer-songwriter Tift Merritt discusses the forthcoming reissue of her Grammy nominted album Tambourine, returning to music after taking time out to raise her daughter, and she performs live for Woman's Hour, ahead of her appearance on the Acoustic stage.Anita meets three generations of female festival goers who are all camping in the family field.Away from the live music performers there are a host of other activities on offer with more than 100 stages around the 900 acre site. Anita speaks Kaye Dunnings, the Creative Director of Shangri-La, which hosts performances, art and installations and has been reimagined this year to celebrate collective joy and awe. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. BBC Sounds Music Radio podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. A very good morning to you and welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. We are live from Worthy Farm. That was on Vogue, just one of 3,000 performances at Glastonbury this weekend, and that was

a presenter privilege to pick a song from a band I cannot actually believe I will be seeing live later today. It is very hard to pick though because this place has so many artists. It is 55 years old, can you believe it? And from the very first year when dairy farmer Michael Levis had the vision to put on the Pilton Pop Blues and Folk Festival when tickets cost a pound plus a free pint of milk. It's grown into one of the largest festivals in the world with a throng of over 200,000 people here. All to have a jolly good time. Now to set the scene we are gathered around the Woman's Hour

picnic table not far from the pyramid stage above me is the Six Music Studio just around the corners the Radio One studio but we are outdoors the sun is shining and what a lineup we have for you. We've got an interview with Self Esteem who'll be performing tonight on the Park stage. The Grammy nominated American singer-songwriter Tift Merritt is with me. She'll be on the Park stage. The Grammy nominated American singer-songwriter Tift Merritt is with me. She'll be on the acoustic stage at one o'clock this afternoon, but not before she's performed for us first. Can't wait for that. And Kay Dunnings, the creative director of Shangri-La in the Festival Southeast Corner, which hosts performances,

art and installations, and has been reimagined this year to celebrate collective joy and awe, just one of the many areas here on site. There are over 100 different areas spread over 900 acres. And three generations of festival goers who are all camping in the family field. Also here to hang out with me is Jams Supernova, who's hot-footed over from 6 Music, where she'll be broadcasting later today. And of course, all of you, I would love to hear from you this morning. Who are you looking forward

to seeing this year at the festival? Are you looking forward to the weekend watching it on the telly with your favourite glass of something chilled? Are you here? Do say hello. Tell me about when you were last here, your favourite act, who did you see, all the gossip maybe you got here and can't remember anything about it, Whatever it is we'd love to hear. The text number is 84844. You can email the programme by going to our website. You can also WhatsApp us on 03700 100 444 and do follow us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour.

But as I said, I am joined around the picnic table by Jam Supernova, broadcaster on 6 Music, DJ and all-round boss on your own record label. I gave you a little whoop too early I got a bit excited. Yes I'm very excited. Your label Future Bounce because you're paying it forward and you did so much so much I could say about you but we needed a separate hour where I'm just it's like the Jams Appreciation Society. Also with me Tift Merritt and Kay Dunnings and some live music in the background in case you didn't know we were broadcasting from I wish I knew who was playing. Does anyone know? It might be a sound check. It might just be a

sound check. Let's kick things off. Jams you DJed yesterday. I did I played San Remo I played at 1.30 till 3.30. And it was kicking off. It was. I did I played some Remo I played a 130 till 330 and it was kicking off It was yeah, I know I don't think I have even processed The set really because I just could see people for as far as I could see and I've not really had that experience at Glastonry Before yeah, yeah a friend of mine was walking past and she said it was Incredible jams was performing and the crowd was in saying I got here on Wednesday And you know bear in mind people most people people think Friday to Sunday on Monday. It was heaving. Have you ever experienced anything like it? No definitely not and I

think even like walking towards the set I was like wow it's so busy and I'd been there from the Thursday morning and it didn't feel that busy and suddenly as the afternoon crept in there's like more and more people but everyone was really up for it and actually a patient crowd as well. I felt like I could go on a bit of a journey and I could bring it down and bring it back up without the fear of losing a festival crowd because that's always the fear right? I have the fear of clearing a crowd. It never happens to jumps. I mean it does. But here they're all here to lap it up. It's Women's Hour so who are the women artists performing this year that you are excited to see?

I really want to see Alanis Morissette with my mum, my mum's here. And I just think like, you know, as a heritage actor, the legacy actor, and what she was talking about in the 90s, it was so phenomenal. She saved us. Tiff, how about you? Is that your first time here? It's my second time, but it's been a while. It was a while ago that I was here and I just remember being so it's like the Renaissance Fair at the end of the world it's like the scale of everything is so over it's it is something you have to witness to understand. Have you got time to see I know you're performing at one o'clock today so we're very grateful that you came to see us first. Will you have time to go and see somebody? You know, I'm gonna go see Ani De Franco.

Yes. But, and I wanna see you, jams. Oh, wicked. But I can't stay the rest of the weekend, which is really unfortunate and sad. I have to, you know, touring musicians, they keep us going. You keep you going, but we are grateful that you are here

and we'll be coming to see you. Kay, welcome. Thank you. You were up late last night. Extremely late last night. So you've built this whole we're gonna talk about it later but Shangri-La which is one of the phenomenal areas that you've switched up completely this year so it's very magical totally redesigned you've been working on it for a long time but who actually are you here to see excited to see do you get time to go and see anybody? I have to make time. I have to just not sleep and just get everywhere I can

because these five days are so precious. But on Vogue all the way, I am literally, I'm just overjoyed with excitement. I know, I can't. I'm like, I cannot believe this is happening. Me and you both. Also, Amel and the Sniffers, Dochey, Charlie XCX. I mean there's so many incredible women.

Jams, you're also doing your show from here. What's coming up on the program? Just loads of live music. We've got lots of guests passing through. I'm quite excited because tomorrow Giles Peterson, we're co-hosting at 10am and it hasn't been to Glastonbury in about 20 years. What? Yeah, him and Marianne, I think this year they were like, you know what? A grand arms. I think we'll pop in. Are the two thrones set up for Marianne and Giles to sit on whilst they're here? I think that should be the case. Okay so we mentioned Dochi there who I cannot

wait to see. The American rapper, singer is set to perform on the West Holt stage tomorrow night which will be a highlight of the festival's Saturday lineup. She's one of only three women to have won the Grammy Award for best rap album along with Lauryn Hill and Cardi B. She won it this year for her album Alligator Bytes Never Heal. Anxiety became her first song to debut in the top 20 on the Billboard Hot 100. So we thought it's only right here at woman's hour that we sort of understand and discuss the rise, the rise and the rise of this incredible artist. So Jams, Dochi calls herself the swamp princess. Who is she? Tell us about her. Where's she come from? She's out of Florida. I actually had her on my radio show in lockdown. We did a

dial-in interview in 2021 and it was around an EP that she had called She Her Black Bee. I won't say the other word. And she was kind of like giving Grace Jones and kind of feeling it out. And I remember when I spoke to her, then she spoke about doing the artist way. And she did the amazing book from the 90s that was written about creativity and she would film herself regurgitating what she had done in the artist way, the different courses and the different chapters and that's what led her on a path of rapping but for the last since like 2021 she's had loads of singles out but not many sort of substantial

projects and I think what we were witnessing was her testing out different things she can sing she can rap but with Alligator Bytes Never Hill that was really her going in and thinking about the craft of hip-hop. The beats were made with one woman, producer, in one month in a moment of sobriety and it was yeah and and it was really about her being like I'm a rapper and I don't want to make TikTok hits and even though they ended up becoming viral, but they were her trying to become the best rapper. How important was and how indicative of the time

that we're in is it that she was going viral on TikTok before she had this huge success with the album? I mean, I guess it is a sign of the times, but I think for artists, it can then feel that you are chasing that virality so do you go into the studio with that in mind and I think that she had to reset there's been loads of great interviews of her online talking about really trying to figure out her sound away from virality. Yeah and then on to winning a Grammy so

rapidly. Yeah. What a moment. Yeah and I I think it's been, you know, a long time in the works for her in terms of her being known in the industry, her working with your scissors, you know, being on Kendrick Lamar's label. So it wasn't like she came out of nowhere. I think the Rami was very, very well deserved because it's epic. Listen. But there's something about her that just stands out every so often. And Kei and Tiff, do you probably agree? I don't know, there's an artist that just leaps out and is like, oh my goodness, what is she doing? And it's not just her sound, her delivery,

what she's saying, the look, you know, the choreography. The performances. The performance. She, it's like a true artist, you know, she really stands out, but also she's really, it's like every generation of woman I know. It's like teenagers who are listening to Taylor Swift are also now into Dochi. So she's just got the magic, hasn't she? Yeah, definitely. No, I think so.

And I think what she talks about as well, you know, mental health, her queer journey as well. Being a dark-skinned black woman in hip-hop is hard. You know, when you look at some of the women that are popular within hip hop, they're often like skinned. So her coming out and being like, yeah, she her, black B, like that's me.

In addition to best rap album, she received two more Grammy nominations this year. Best Rap Performance for Nissan Altima and Best New Artist. Now music has been compared by critics. Here we go, we love a comparison don't we? But these are great comparisons to Nicki Minaj, Doja Cat and Missy Elliott and she herself has cited Lauryn Hill as her biggest inspiration. What do you think? What do I think about those comparisons? I think they're great comparisons because I

think it's about the women that have stood the test of time as well and all of those women have and they defined a moment within hip-hop You know each of them had a sort of a cornerstone and changed the sound and was very kind of true in their delivery And I actually really like the way that do she expresses her her sexuality her sensuality her body her performance It feels like a very sort of physically strong offering as well. She also comes, I mean she's another brilliant artist and we name-checked a few there. There's a sort of heritage of women in hip-hop that she's standing on the shoulders of, thinking Queen Latifah, Salt and Pepper, Lauryn Hill, Lil Kim, Missy Elliott,

and more recently, you know, Gen Z rappers like Nicki Minaj, Cardi B. How are they being popularized? Like what has happened in the sort of timeline? I think it's just hip-hop opening up, maybe hip-hop becoming more mainstream and more I guess accessible and universal. I think that's definitely a part to play. I think the visual world that we live in really sort of lends itself, like we sort of spoke about the performance, it's like the amount of times I've watched the videos and the way that they, don't you, some of her videos, the way that all of their dances, all their hair is all plaited together and they're linked together. So I think that taking it into a sort of theatrical world as well, I'm sure a lot of people went to see Beyonce

recently and that's a theatre show essentially, isn't it? I watched this brilliant, it might still be on a BBC iPlayer but it's like women in hip-hop kind of documentary series and it sort of talked about the origins of hip-hop and actually how important the women were in the heart of the scene and how these names we, surprise surprise, have never heard of. Tiff, does that surprise you? Not at all. Tiff disappeared women.

I think that's the repeating story. I do a lot of work around a record label that was dedicated to the foremothers of jazz because they weren't making the leap from 78s to LPs because all the white jazz critics thought that these early women were vaudeville. They did too many things. They looked great, they were funny, they told stories, they were entertainers. And all of the white jazz critics were like, no, that's not authentic blues. We want Robert Johnson.

So there was a woman named Rosetta Wrights who also was, like all of us, doing so many different things to make it work and she she got angry she was like where are the women in jazz why is this a male domain and she dedicated 30 years of her life to joining this very toxic circle of record collectors and buying everything that she could buy women and remastering and putting it out on LP And I think it speaks to where we are now. Sorry, I don't mean to go on a monologue, but every time technology updates,

it's a gatekeeping moment where what is important and who is important and what music is is redefined. And we're in this moment where AI is replacing human labor being trained on it to replace it. And I think it's another chapter in this story and affects, you know, certain groups of people more than others, clearly. So yes, including, yes, absolutely. And please bring all the stories to the table. This is what it's about. This is exactly the conversation. This is

the space to have it. Why am I a woman who's worked in the music business for 25 years and I didn't know about this record label. I stumbled into it by accident and I went, why did I not know this story? And it's because if we don't tell our own stories, they are forgotten. Absolutely. And I just need to name check also because British hip hop, got to say Cookie Crew, who refused to be sort of sexualized as well and did it on their own terms. That's the other important thing about a lot of these powerful women in hip-hop, they are doing it on their terms. So Dochi will be

performing at Glastonbury tomorrow and we will be there. Jams, we're gonna hear you on your show. What time are you on? I think I'm on at one. Yeah, one o'clock. Okay, I'm gonna be coming up. Oh no, we're on this at the same time. I think I'm popping up on your show as well. Definitely need to link up later. I loved his mind. I really wanna hear more of your stories.

Another artist that's performing is the musician, songwriter and actress, Rebecca Lucy Taylor. She started out as one half of a band called Slow Club and launched her solo career as Self Esteem with the single Your Wife in 2017. She won the 2021 BBC Music Introducing Artist of the Year award and achieved a nomination for the Mercury Prize in 2022 with Prioritized Pleasure. More recently, she's performed the lead role of Sally Bowles in the West End production of Cabaret and she was excellent. and who can forget the last time she was here at Glastonbury in 2022 with her bra inspired by the Meadow

Hall dome, iconic. She's got a new album out called A Complicated Woman and will be performing tonight on the Park stage. Keep singing, singing, singing And I, I see it, baby Every passing love it's sheer Well, I caught up with Rebecca earlier and asked her how she's feeling and what she's got in store for us. Very excited. I love Anonia and the Johnsons,

so I'm very excited for that bit because I'll be able to relax. But yeah, I'm going to do my But yeah, I'm gonna do my, well, I'm gonna try and do my theater show version of the gig, completely different size stage and with half the things I need. But I think it's, yes, I think it's going to be fantastic. That's what I'm gonna say about that.

It is gonna be fantastic. I think we should give a shout out to your ensemble. It's gonna be on stage with you. Who have you got with you? Well, it's very long, with 15 of us. Oh, right. Well, what about stage with you. Who have you got with you? Well, it's very long. There's 15 of us. Oh, right. Well, what about your backing singers? Who have you got?

There's 11 backing singers. Amazing. Just shout out to my sisters. Yeah, they're all amazing. And I think it's quite a lot of people's first glass tumbleys. So I hope they have a good time. Well, last time you were there, so many things to talk about, iconic in many ways, not least because the audience were barking at you.

Yes, hoping for that again. Hoping for that again for sure. Personally, by the way, congratulations on a complicated woman, love it. Oh, good, thank you. I will be singing along with the curse. Yes, okay. Obviously it's Radio 4, Rebecca, but for those people who don't know about the curse. Yes, okay. Obviously it's Radio 4, Rebecca, but for those people who

don't know what about the curse, can you tell us a little bit about that song? Yeah, it's a song I wrote about sort of alcohol and and vices, I suppose, anything you do that isn't amazing for you, but but it helps, right? And it and it works. And it's quite a hard song to write, because I feel like in society we've fed a sort of sobriety is, you know, the right thing to do and absolutely what you should be doing, or like, cheers, we, here's the weekend, let's go kind of thing. And there's no middle ground. And I think that's why, you know, I've certainly struggled with it over the years just to find moderation and a middle ground because, yeah, there is none. So it's a song

about trying to figure that out, which does not sound like a big pop song, but I think it is. But how cathartic, how wonderful was it to be able to get those words out when you were recording? I think I saw a clip on Instagram of the backing singers in a studio, the choir singing the chorus, gospel choir as well, immense. It's wonderful. I struggle with a lot of things in the job and certainly the bigger it gets and the more sort of visible I get, the more stressful some of it is. But then there's moments where you've had something in your head and you get it out and then it's to fruition. That's like the best feeling in the world. And then you put it into the mouths of like people that can sing so good.

And it is like the highest of highs. It's heaven. Why are you expecting people to bark? For the uninitiated, people don't know why your audience bark at you. I have a song on my last album, Prioritized Pleasure, called I'm Fine, which includes a sound bite from a theatre workshop I did with a load of young women, female identifying people. I clipped it from that and it says, she says about how when her and her friends walk home, they pretend to be dogs and they bark at sort of men that are sort of giving them, you know, catcalling them or whatever, because people just think you're mad and there's nothing more terrifying than a mad woman is there. So we all bark together. What's that like when you're on stage witnessing that, hearing it?

It's amazing. I mean, I am so excited to play because I haven't really played a gig yet to a crowd of... Like I played in the theatre and that was a very small theatre, a different experience. I played radio one big weekend which was amazing, but you're not doing it to a crowd of your people, definitely your people. So I'm really, I need it. I'm really ready to just look out there and see a load of mad people barking. Can you give us an idea of what you might be wearing? Because apart from the fact that you were spectacular last time at Glastonbury, you also wore the meadow hall domes as a bra.

Yes. Which as a northerner, I found particularly delightful and the humour is just always spot on with you. So what are you going to be wearing? So the Bradford Town Hall is pretty iconic. Yeah, I couldn't get the rights. All right, fair enough. Well, I'm a bit worried because genuinely, this is not me doing a double bluff. I'm wearing the costumes from throughout,

because I'm sort of doing this theater version. I haven't got a moment, but I also, so I have a Boots Advantage card dress that I made that I wore in Brighid 2019. That was, I think, my greatest idea. And then I always had this idea to have Meadowhall, Madonna Cone bra, but it's the Meadowhall domes. And that was difficult to execute. You know, a lot of people that weren't from the North were like, well, people will get it. But I was sure about it. And it really did work and people loved it. But genuinely I haven't had a better idea yet.

You were casting Cabaret alongside Jake Shears from Scissor Sisters. How did that experience of being in musical theatre shape what you're doing now? Personally as a performer I don't know how much it changed. I've always loved, even when I was like in an indie band like playing Tiny Bars, I always felt like Elaine Page, you know what I mean? Like I always feel like it's drama and it's there and I'm in it. So it wasn't like I suddenly was like acting, but what I took from it so much and have taken with me is the, like the infrastructure, it's not very romantic,

but like the way theater is run, there are the right amount of people to check that everything's gonna go smoothly. They care about how you are there are rules if something's not okay You can ring someone and complain like in music. It's so unregulated There is no you know No one is helping you make sure you can get to the stage until you're at a level where you can pay someone to do Yeah, so I took like I'd literally took one of the stage managers with me. I worked with a theatre designer on my new show.

I'm just sort of pushing the music industry to, you know, to change for me first and then I see if we can do it for everyone else. But yeah, I'd love to do more theatre. I loved it. And it was a holiday from me. Like I'm emotional as me in self-esteem, but getting to be emotional as Sally was weirdly calming. Yeah, what a fantastic character to get to play. And Madonna came to see you.

That was for the new album. My manager, her face was quite interesting on the day that she was coming and saw a guest. And then I saw her and we've chatted on message. Yeah, she's amazing I mean it truly the reason I got the courage to leave the band was I got really into Madonna like really the documentaries read the book and and honestly I woke up and left and so that's your band Slow Club yeah it's not like celebrities coming to see you is really fun I always love it but she her coming it was so powerful. It's why I

exist. I have nodded to her relentlessly. Absolutely. And that's where you are in your life now, Rebecca. You are fame, success, Mercury Prize nominations, Brit Award nominations. Madonna comes to see you and yet you said that there's so much more that you feel you need to change. And actually you're almost exposed to more of the complications and the pressures. Yeah, it's a weird thing where you, you know, a lot of the music industry is pulling something out of your bottom, shall we say, for nothing quickly. So there's no money and no time. And then you do that for so long. And I've got really, really good at that because of course I did. I always sort of thought I'd get to here and all you having to do now is pull something bigger out your bottom for with it and then resources aren't enough. So it's weird. I don't want to be someone

that just sits and complains about the music industry, but it's so broken at the top in terms of like, no one makes any money from the music. I'm trying to redefine it for myself so I can carry on doing it for 10 more years or 20 more years. I can't do the model that it that we have all been put through in terms of how you grow your, your business, essentially, your artistry, you have to grow, everyone has to grow, you have to go to America, have to try and break America in it, you know,'re not a lot of care about like what that would do for you and your body and your health. So I'm trying to do it differently. And then I'm hoping if it goes well, then some other people that don't want to do it, like everyone else does it, can see this like a different way.

There's another way. It's not by coincidence that the Ivor Novello Awards named you visionary. You were given the visionary award in honor of your fearless, genre-defying songwriting. How did that feel? Do you feel like a visionary? No. No. I often feel I'm such a mix of like mad ego and like, you know, I'm this artist that is taking things down

from the universe and conducting them through myself. Part of me's like that, don't get me wrong. And then part of me's like, I love watching Love Island and having a pizza. I can never take myself too seriously, but I also do take myself seriously. So, visionary felt good. I hope I am a visionary.

I hope I become more of one, because when I think about me at 16, I started making music. Like at 18, I was in a band full-time. And I could cry my eyes out for how hard that was, and how alone I was, and how unsafe I was. And I suppose I'm very determined to make sure, women especially, people who do not have parents

that help them financially, the voices that we just keep losing because there's no arts funding, the industry gets so much, so get more gate kept every year, like, I'm kind of obsessed with making sure we don't lose like what some, you know, Becky Taylor from Rotherham's record should be. Because I do think my music should exist and I'm glad that it does. We also agree. You used your acceptance speech to make a point about women's

safety in the music industry and online, something you've been so vocal about. What do you want to see change? I said that at the Ivers because I've noticed, like obviously female artists are, you know, have been a huge fashionable thing for a very long time but what I've noticed, what wasn't happening 10 years ago was sort of women that write lyrics that are more confessional, more sort of hard to hear, less conforming to a male gaze

or an idea of womanhood. There's a lot of like, you know, Chapel Rome, Lola Young, Sabrina Carpenter, like all the big hitters now are quite confessional and they're saying stuff that's, I don't know what the right word is, but the sort of songwriting I do and I mean I'm way less famous than them but it's still I struggle to put myself out there because you have to be so brave to do it and you have to and it's such a... Well you're so exposed aren't you? Yeah men can say

anything still and women say anything a little, you know, slightly and someone will pick a hole in it and someone will find it. And, you know, even I've had to be brave and keep going and ignore it. So I can't imagine what it's like at the top. And I'm, you know, I'm in a room full of music industry all going, right. Women that talk about that sex life or women that talk about, you know, the truth of being a woman, that's fashion, that's fashionable. That's the trend. Let's let's sign all this. And I just worry about you have to protect them because it's just not the same as it is for men. It's online and also in person, like you being vulnerable and you being exposed in your art sort of creates this sort of accessibility that is frightening. Yeah, but also incredibly relatable for your fans and your audience.

Yes, like I love it and I love art like that and that's why I make art like that. Yeah, you're back at Glastonbury and I cannot wait to see you perform and all of it and bark at you and sing along with you and cry and whatever emotions will flow will be in the moment with you. Best of luck, have the most incredible time and yeah thank you. I'll see you later, I'll give you a wave. I'm looking forward to that wave, the incredible self-esteem there and she will be performing on the park stage at 9 15. She was the epitome of elegance. She was the epitome of mystery, intrigue and beauty. One of the 20th century's most amazing characters, a Hollywood sex symbol whose story you might think you already know. Hedy Lamarr, the film star, but there's another side to her story.

She was an inventor at heart. Her scientific contribution, no other star has been able to match. We really should put her into the limelight she deserves. From the BBC World Service, Untold Legends, Hedy Lamarr. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Tonight, someone we didn't mention when we were talking and podcasts. Tonight, someone we didn't mention when we were talking about women in hip-hop jams, we've got to shout her. Yeah, Lil' Simz.

Lil' Simz. I'm obsessed with her new album, Lotus. I feel like every album she just gets better. She just created the Meltdown Festival at the South Bank. She is our biggest hip-hop export, period. Yeah, and she's been doing it for a long time. Like this girl has been grafting. I often say, you know, it took me 20 years

to be an overnight success. So, they're taking it at the same time, to be fair, yeah. I love it when you said that to me, I laughed out loud. You know, that's what it takes. And you see it, not only is the music exquisite, she is a power she embodies now just everything about her. Yeah the way she moves the way she talks how considered she is you know and being vulnerable I think that's what we have that is so

special as women when we share stories like we're what you talk about about self-esteem when we are the most vulnerable I thought there's so much power in that whether it's don't you talking about anxiety and sobriety or whether it's little sim saying that I've been messed over in this industry and I'm upset and I've written an album about how upset I am. It takes a lot as an artist to do that though. Yeah absolutely. I think that's the point though you got to touch it and then that's how you put love in the world and put healing into the world.

You have to tell the truth. Yeah and that ultimately is what impacts us. Now we asked all of you to let us know, this was about last week the week before, if you were gonna be here at Glastonbury as part of a multi-generational family and Heather, lovely Heather, got in touch with us and she said I'm coming with my husband Nigel and our two daughters. Our eldest daughter and her family moved to live in Pilton in 2021. She's now taking her two daughters, aged nine and seven, their true grandchildren of the festival.

Nigel and myself are now 76 and 72. And each year we've been saying to ourselves, this will be our last. We'll be camping and fully experiencing the wonderful world of Glastow. If you want to speak to three generations of Glastow women do get in touch with me. So we did get in touch with her and Heather said come and see us, come and see us where we're camping with our their granddaughters Bracken, her daughter Bracken and her grandchildren. So that's what I did yesterday. I popped off to the family campsite to meet the family. Hello Heather, hello Bracken. So you got in touch with us Heather when we said

we need generations of women who come together. Yeah. When was the first time you were here? Well there's been a debate about that in the tent just now because I thought it was 99 but then everybody shouted and said no it was 2000. Were you a festival-goer anyway? Were you like a hippie back in the day? You loved to be in a field, peace and love, is that your vibe? So what was it that made you think Glastonbury, I have to be there?

I'd worked in London and they'd all come back from the weekend into work absolutely out of the heads. And I just thought, this is interesting, because it was the dance era, you know, dance music. And that passed us by because we had kids and the kids were young and we didn't. And I had gone to a lot of live music in my youth and I said I'd lost touch with music really and I just thought let's go. How old were you? Oh I don't know 40 something, 40, late 40s something like that. How old were you? How old were you? I was 14 and you came together as a family. Yeah. How was that

experience? It was amazing because we had quite a few... I had a few friends whose parents had been a few times. So we came with them and it was... I mean it was incredible. So what kept you coming back? Well I just... I mean I just fell in love with it. It was just the most...

And there's no other festival like it. I have been to loads of other festivals since then. But they don't even touch the side. It's... It's a bit... I liken it to, it's like your favourite holiday, so you go to a favourite beach in Cornwall and you go every year and you see what's changed. How the tide, how the rivers change, what the rocks are doing. Well here, you come to see and think, oh what's changed?

What have they done? You know, that's not there, but then things are always there. And how old are you now? Oh, I'm 72. And each year, and every every year I don't know how many times we've been 10 or 12 times every year without fail I say I am never ever going again. Why? Because I'm so knackered at the end of it. I'm absolutely done in. So why do you keep coming back? I don't know because after a year like childbirth you've forgotten how awful it was and how awful it is to get out and I mean the last time I came

was two years ago and it was 12 weeks after I'd had a knee replacement. How mad is that? And dad had just had a heart bypass. And they both were both here. A pacemaker. And they were both here raving it up in Block 9. Love it. Or maybe not. Maybe I just added that. Rakan, so you came the first time you were 14 with your family, had that incredible experience and then tell me you've come back every year with family or with friends. How have you experienced it?

So the next time I came back it was 2002, so it was a fallow year the year after and I was 16. So I came with my friends and there were the year after and I was 16 so I came with my friends and there were loads of us and we were properly I mean I don't know if I saw you that much that year but it was running around with all my friends there were probably about 40 of us so it was wild and then some of my friends stopped coming and I mean and you came yeah they said oh it's not like it used to be and then I just I came and we

were camping the only way you could get tickets was in a caravan in Las Vaguenas and we camped right next to like the heart of the nightlife we were in a camper van together and I was 17 so it was really nice. And fast forwards to present day 2025 you are now in your 70, you are a mother of two daughters as well and they are here. So you've now got the third generation coming and what's that experience like bringing your, now really how old are your two kids? They are seven and nine and they've been coming since they were quite little and it's really nice because we've been three of, all three generations together before and then this

is our second year all together and it's lovely because there's a safety in it, you've got grandparents who can help with the babysitting. I didn't know that. Can you help, is that okay? And yeah, I mean, we've been coming since I was pregnant with my first. It is like nothing else, it is the most magical place and coming with kids and having parents here as well, it just adds a richness to it and there's so much entertainment for them. So there's like the circus field, the kids field, there's another kids area where they're literally like

the kids have hammers and saws and they're going just free range. And yeah it feels really safe and everyone's looking out for each other. So individually who are you looking forward to seeing and then collectively as a family who will draw you together? I'm looking forward to seeing Rod Stewart because in his day when I was younger he was one of the best performers then and you know I mean he... Are you going to dress up? Are you going to wear some leopard print? No I won't I won't and to some extent the beauty of Glastonbury is you haven't got

a mirror with you and you don't know what you look like. And I think for four days that's great, that's quite liberating. And you get back home and you think, my god, what do I look like? How about you? So I'm really excited about self-esteem. She's going to be amazing. And together, Miles Smith. So the kids are really excited.

You love him. I've already seen him live. He's a very nice young man. And what's your top tips for surviving Glastonbury as a seasoned Glastonbury goer? Well, you clean the toilets so in the morning mum goes in with rubber gloves and cleaning products and chooses a cubicle and cleans the loo. What the publics! Yeah and chooses a cubicle and cleans the loose. What the public's... Yeah. And so the long drops and then that's like, right, I've cleaned this one, you can all

go in after me. That top tip. Heather! That's the most incredible thing I've heard ever about Glastonbury. Wake up and spot the woman in the rubber gloves, that's the toilet you need. Heather Bracken, it's been such a pleasure speaking to you. I thoroughly look forward to seeing you at the next Glastonbury. Enjoy your weekend. That's all, I don't know about that, it's my last one.

She said that last year. We'll be wheeling you in, don't worry. Pure joy. Kay, you are an OG Glastonbury chick. You've been here, like you were gonna talk to you about it later, but you were here in the early 2000s with Las Vegas. Have you ever, ever, ever, ever heard of anyone cleaning a toilet with rubber gloves and you know, bringing their own cleaning products? Not a toilet as such, but when I first started I had an area called the Laundromat of Love and we were 50s housewives and we had Hoovers and dusters and a lot of

rubber gloves but we didn't clean any actual things. People gave people a little dust down. I mean the toilet above and beyond but intergenerational camping so they're not the only ones because Tiff do you've brought your daughter with you? I have yes this is the first time she's come on tour with me and she's nine she's wonderful lucky her lucky her and Jams you're the whole family yeah the whole so I play so many gigs to get them in I got my mom and my little one Forrest as well and we're all in the camper van together yeah which is which is, we're stepping on each other, getting on each other's nerves, but also having a great time.

What a beautiful, what a gorgeous upbringing. I mean, you know, she'll have some tales to tell. Lots of you getting in touch with your messages. I just want to read a couple of them out. And one here saying, I'm 72. I was 17 when the first festival happened in Pilton Village. My friend Wendy and I drove down from Windsor with our boyfriends, we parked the car in a field about five minutes from the stages, that's changed, and our tent went up

somewhere in between. The question is did you find your tent at the end of it? And this is a great message. A shout out please to Andrew, Mark, Jane and Marcus who are volunteer litter pickers on the 6am shift. Yes, I stay on site when I'm here because, well, you know, when I'm here because well you know because I'm like that and also want the full experience. There is nothing quite like walking across this site and witnessing the cleanup operation first thing in the morning and so it's very important to thank the volunteers who clean this place up as well. Right, you've been hearing from her throughout the

program but I'm gonna do the official intro now. Tift Merritt is a Grammy nominated American singer-songwriter who had significant UK success with her song Good Hearted Man and albums Tambourine followed by Another Country, See You on the Moon, Traveling Alone and Stitch of the World. Taking time off the road to raise her daughter, Tift has returned with the 20th anniversary reissue of Tambourine which will be coming out soon along with a companion album Time and Patience. She'll be performing on the acoustic stage at one o'clock this afternoon but before that she's wonderfully taken time out to be here with us and you're gonna be playing live very soon. I cannot wait. Excited to be here. I'm so excited to be

here and you know I'm excited to be singing again. You know when I took time out I hadn't really had a period of my adult life where I wasn't performing and it was really great to be away and to question why I was doing it and you know navigating the ups and downs of all of that and to come back and just think you know I my why for doing this is that I just want to put good in the world in any way that I can and if this is how I can do that then we'll start traveling the miles again. Yes good and now you're here with your nine year old daughter was Was it difficult? So you said, you know, taking time out and then start questioning everything.

Why am I doing it? It's a big existential question. Of course, of course. And you know, it's not an easy life to be a musician. It's not a choice that you make because you're going to make a lot of money. And I'm a single mom. That was just not a sustainable thing. But you know, somebody actually told me that you have to water your roots. Like a tree has as much underneath the ground as it does flowering above and you can't flower all the time. So you know, I think my work deepened and changed and a lot of it happens offstage and I'm really happy about that but I'm also really happy to be singing again and I you know it's a funny thing we were talking about the music business

time and patience the album that's coming out along with the reissue is actually my old demos from when I was 27 years old. And the record label for a whole year said, not a hit, not a hit, not a hit, not a hit, not a hit. And now, and it was such a hard experience. And to come back to those demos that I made in my kitchen and have them come out in the world and go like, you know what, I stand behind that. No, that's quite a huge thing to happen. How powerful do you feel? I feel slightly emotional thinking about that.

You were 27 and they said no, and here you are now putting them out, those songs. That's a wild thing to have happened in your life. It feels very tender and that I was, it feels like a true reaching, like, okay, I was, I wasn't off track. Yeah, you were not, you were never off track. So you grew up in North Carolina.

How did you come to music? Oh, my dad, he, you know, like when my mom was like, take the kids on Saturday, he would get his guitar out and his harmonica out and he played Percy Sledge songs on the piano and I just remember the feeling of being with my father and playing music with him and sort of being overwhelmed with love. That was how we spent time. So it was just a really natural extension of that. You have your own brand of Southern music for people who don't know. I mean we are gonna hear some about it, it's gonna be remarkable.

Can you describe it? Tell us about it. I mean, you know, it's earthy and grounded and I'm a writer first. I'm not a fancy musician. I'm not a virtuoso. It's really about having something to say. And yeah, I'm a writer first so I try to make very I try to make what is hard to say and I try spoken and simple yeah and you're going to be performing for us tell that tell us about the song you'll be performing oh yeah so this is a song that came out a long time ago and I...

Boy, we're divorced now, but that's okay. No, I mean this is womans side. It's kind of a radio show, but I feel like sometimes it's like therapy. Well, you know what I would like to say about this song before I sing it is that there's a lyric in it that you know I talk about sort of my dreams being too big and my love being broken and you know those are the feelings of a younger woman. I don't feel that way about myself anymore. How do you feel about yourself right now?

I'm just fine. How do you feel about yourself, Kay? I mean I'm a bit of a husk of my former self but I'm feeling better. I'm feeling better the older I get the more I learn, the more I learn from other women, the more other women seem to be supporting each other. That's the best thing about getting older. I think we're all more aligned aren't we with how we think about things. We've shared all the stuff from our teenage years that no longer serves us. And now it's about serving each other. Tift, could you go and take your place? Jams, Kate, are you ready to have this experience? I am. We are about to witness and you will all hear, she's just getting her guitar on and getting herself set up and getting to

the microphone. Tift Merritt is about to perform for us now, A Good-Hearted Man. I swore that I was living free, or you couldn't talk to me, and the pride that kept me. Yes, Tiff! Goodness me. Thank you. Thank you so much, Tiff Merritts. And if you're here at Glastonbury, you can see her on the acoustic stage at one o'clock this afternoon. You've got us in tears here Tiff. I'd like to say, you've met her because she's been in floods of tears. Perfect timing to bring you in Kay. Kay Shangri-La, let me tell you about the other activities here at Glastonbury. Shangri-La and the Festival South East Corner hosts performances, art installations. It's been reimagined this year to celebrate collective joy and awe. Highlights across the four stages include Fatboy Slim's 100th Glastonbury show, performances from the brilliant also Woman's Hour friend, Caitlin O'Ryan,

the Nova Twins, and an AV show incorporating 40-foot trees taking over the whole area. Joining me is Kay Dunning, she's been here throughout the show, who's the creative director of Shangri-La. Hi. Are you alright? I'm fine. That wasn't that special. The floodgates have opened. Yeah. It just made me think of my husband, basically, in that song. He is epic. He's the site manager. His name's Willie. We've been together 16 years and we've been in the field together doing this for that long. We're kind of like the mum and dad of the crew there. Oh no, wonderful, let it out. It's really emotional, it's a huge community of people. We do it because we love it, we're not getting paid lots of money, we are. So because of our connection to each other. So just to put you into context,

for people who have no idea about Glastonbury, right, who might not have ever seen it, like this place is designed with lots of different areas that feel like different worlds that take you into these magical spaces and Shangri-La, I would say, sort of peak one of those places. And you have been, you were here when Lost Vagueness started at Glastonbury. What was that, 2002 was that? Yeah, that's right. So explain, that was like a real shift, a moment in time where Glastonbury, what was that 2002 was that? Yeah that's right. So explain, that was like a real shift, a moment in time where Glastonbury switched from one thing to another and sort of dance music arrived right? Dance music yes but it was more the theatricality of it

actually. Exactly, the cabaret. Yeah there was, it was the Traveller Field and it wasn't part of the festival but because there was so much incredible just performance art and surrealism happening out there. Michael decided to put the fence all the way around them. There was a casino and a ballroom and you know all of these fabulous things. All of the travelers were dressing in top hats and tails and ball gowns. Yeah. As a bit of a kind of poker class I suppose and then I was working in a waitress in a cocktail bar in 2002 and then in 2003 I had my own venue, the Laundromat of Love, which I mentioned earlier. I started

a theatre company with multiple women that I'd met along my life so far. They all didn't know each other and I kind of brought them together to create this space that was kind of a bit of an antidote to the kind of craziness of that area. It was really, what's the word, hedonistic space. Yeah. And I wanted there to be something, I guess a nurturing space where people could, for the introverts or people that just needed a bit of time out and some love and I think now that's, I'm still doing it 18 years later. You really are. And I was there yesterday having a wander around to see what you've created, because you've kind of switched it all up.

And so tell us what you've done to Shranquil Art and also the fact that you've platformed women still at every level in your area. Absolutely. Well, the show, we've titled it The Wilding because I wanted people to feel the wonderment and awe again that I sort of, I don't know, you know, people come to Glastonbury and they know the way around a bit. Also there's loads of new people here that have never experienced

it so I want people to feel like kids again. I want them to be excited about things. I want the simple things to then become really important again. We've come off social media, we're kind of slowing everything down. I want to give people a really nurturing experience but on a big scale. We can have the raves, we can have the shops, we can have the parties, but also we can have care and the community

and spaces to chat and meet new people. And there's loads of little things discover there as well there's like multiple worlds within the world. You're literally growing tomatoes there I know because I don't I should probably shouldn't say this but I ate two of them I hope that's okay if you notice there's two missing they were delicious and also women how important is it that you have continued to grow this community of women who are like at your top tier? Yeah, like every single area is managed by women and I've jumped in throughout everything I've ever done.

It creates a completely different environment for people. We have a huge crew, hundreds of people, and it's a really emotional time we come together to make this thing it's really exhausting and you kind of you need women in positions of power and management to manage all of that emotional stuff that happens. What difference does it make? What do you see as like kind of the what's the change when women are in positions of power and running the team? I think everyone just feels a lot happier and safer. I've had men in their 60s that were on the crew crying and saying what a privilege it is to work under these 20, 30 year old women, which is incredible, right? Like, when do you get that anywhere else? They call it a privilege and that is me knowing that I've done my job because that's where

we should be. It makes everything better. Now, we haven't got time to do the whole thing. We'll have to get you back on, okay, because I was reading all about you before this interview and you pretty much wanted me to, you've made me want to change the way I live. Like you're the way you talk about community and living with the land and your outlook just, it shows that there are alternative ways

of doing things full of heart. So for any advice to our listeners who aren't going to be here at the festival, how they can bring a bit of Shangri-La and that community joy to their own lives? Okay, I think you need to just realise that you are creative. Everyone can create anything and to take the time to do something that gives you joy. In a time where joy seems like an act of resistance, we're really championing the small things that make a difference.

So just the act of making anything, even if it was a birthday card or just planting a plant anywhere and watching it grow is just so simple but it's so needed I think. I keep saying this to people, in times of great chaos in the world there's always a folk revival as well and I'm really leaning into that and people are learning to make things again. We're going analog, we're going off grid, we are taking back the power that capitalism has kind of taken away from us, learning to be self-sufficient. That's a lot of the reason why we've got food growing all over Shangri-La. It's like a nurturing thing but also showing that anyone can do it and it is intergenerational, it is intersectional. Gardening is radical and that's yeah that's what the theme is

that we're gonna run with over the next sort of five years as we make, grow more plants. They're gonna be center stage, they need their own lineup post actually. You've got these incredible trees that I can't wait to come and see as well. Tell us about the trees. The trees are epic. They were part of a project in Birmingham 2018. They're called Pollination's Trees. They were originally concept by Trigger. And they've been dormant all of this time. And we wanted to surround the stage with something that was really monumental, that really represents

like how we communicate because trees all talk to each other. know they're a community of their own and we've used them in a different way we've using projections to bring them to life at night and they're kind of like ghostly in the day like they're kind of deities and references to what we've lost. It's gonna it's going to be incredible it is incredible I cannot wait to wander up there I want to thank all of you so much. This has just been so full of joy and heart. So thank you to all my guests. Self-esteem, Jam Supernova, Tift Merritt, Kay Dunnings and just to let you know that on weekend Woman's Hour tomorrow with Claire Macdonald, journalist and legendary war reporter Christiane Amampour will be

talking about, this is very fitting, the new podcast she's making with her ex-husband. And apparently the bullet bra is back. So will the rest of us be wearing one soon or is it just for the fashionistas? Join Claire tomorrow. That's all I've got time for live from Worthy Farm. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Nick Robinson. You might be tired of switching on the news, hearing those pre-rehearsed That's all for today's Woman's, my podcast from BBC Radio 4. I have extended conversations with those who shape our political thinking. I try to get to the heart of what makes these people tick, what lies behind what you're seeing or hearing on the news. That's Political Thinking with me, Nick Robinson.

You can listen on BBC Sounds. She was the epitome of elegance. She was the epitome of mystery, intrigue, and beauty. One of the 20th century's most amazing characters, a Hollywood sex symbol, whose story you might think you already know. Hedy Lamarr, the film star. But there's another side to her story. She was an inventor at heart.

Her scientific contribution, no other star has been able to match. We really should put her into the limelight she deserves. From the BBC World Service, Untold Legends, Hedy Lamar. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.