Woman's Hour - Living with Dissociative Identity Disorder, EU Elections, Joanne Ramos

Episode Date: May 14, 2019

This year has seen ongoing turmoil at Westminster, the date on which Britain leaves the EU deferred and two new political parties founded and fielding candidates – Change UK and the Brexit Party. It is frequently claimed that we are seeing a realignment in British politics. But is that claim borne out among women voters? And, how do the varied concerns of women fit into a conversation that is so often dominated by men? We look at what light electoral research, opinion polling and focus groups might shed on the way different groups of women voters are currently thinking. As part of a BBC season about mental health, tomorrow we hear from a 40 year old woman who lives with Dissociative Identity Disorder. We’re calling her Melanie and she was first diagnosed aged 22. She explains her diagnosis as being like a set of Russian dolls. She, Melanie, is the main doll and inside her are lots of other dolls, her alternative personalities. She feels her DID helped her as a child when she suffered repeated sexual abuse but living with it as an adult is challenging. The Farm, the title of Joanne Ramos’s debut novel, refers to a Golden Oaks, a luxury retreat where women get the very best of everything provided they dedicate themselves to producing the perfect baby. For someone else. Joanne Ramos joins Jane to talk about the rights and wrongs of surrogacy, being an immigrant, nannies who rarely get to see their own children and the myths and reality of the American dream. Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Deborah Mattinson Interviewed guest: Jane Green Interviewed guest: Joanne Ramos Reporter: Ena Milller Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour podcast. It's the 14th of May 2019. On the podcast today, I think this is absolutely amazing listening this. A woman with Dissociative Identity Disorder, which used to be known as Multiple Personality Disorder, tells us a bit about her life and how she lives it. And you can hear that on the podcast today. Also, a new novel, The Farm. It's about a place called Golden Oaks, which is a sumptuous farm in the middle of nowhere. There's just a catch. You've got to be pregnant, live there for nine months

and carry somebody else's baby, probably the baby of somebody mega, mega rich. But ask yourself, would you go through pregnancy and childbirth if you could pay someone else to do it for you? The author is Joanne Ramos. The book is called The Farm, and it's really got people talking, and you can hear Joanne on the podcast as well. So to the ongoing turmoil at Westminster, we don't really have any idea when we are going to leave the European Union. Two new political parties have been founded recently and both are fielding candidates in the European elections next Thursday. It is being claimed that we are seeing a realignment in British politics. So are women being tempted by either of the two new parties, the Brexit Party and Change UK.

I talked to Deborah Mattinson, founding partner of research and strategy consultancy Britain Thinks, and to Jane Green, professor of politics at Nuffield College, Oxford. Here's Deborah, first of all, on how she thinks the two new parties, Brexit Party and Change UK, are going down with women. To be perfectly honest, it suggests that they haven't taken to them very much at all. Thinking about Change UK, I think people are just a little bit bewildered. And most people in our focus groups haven't really heard of them.

They haven't cut through. They haven't cut through at all. They just haven't noticed them. They really haven't noticed them. Brexit Party is slightly different. I think that most people obviously't noticed them. Brexit Party is slightly different. I think that most people obviously have noticed them. Women don't like them very much. So I think just to be really clear here, obviously, there are some women who will support the Brexit Party.

Well, many, many women voted for Brexit. Indeed, indeed. But what we see, and this comes through in both the polling and the focus groups, is that the appeal is essentially male and actually slightly older men as well. And that is also true of Nigel Farage's personal appeal. All right, the appeal is essentially male. I want to just pick up on that a little bit. What do you mean? So well, if we look at the vote, the Brexit party has a 10 point lead of men over women. So, you know, we've seen they've sort of burst through, they've burst into the lead.

But when you look at the gender difference, and there isn't very much gender difference in a lot of the different parties' appeal, but there is a clear gender difference there. There is also, by the way, an age difference. And we may come on and talk about that, but certainly there's a very clear gender difference. There's also a very clear difference in Farage's own personal appeal. So two and a half times as many men as women say that he would be the best prime minister.

The best prime minister? Yes. Well, he's not in the running for prime minister at the moment. No, but some of them think that he should be. They would like to see him. 22% of men, in fact. One in five. Yeah, OK, that is quite a lot.

Jane Green, what do you think about that? The fact that, for a start, let's deal with Change UK. Deborah says they're just not cutting the mustard. Nobody knows who they are. Do you agree? That's certainly consistent with my reading of things. And I'd very much agree with what Deborah said about the Brexit party too. What we know about men and women, one of the kind of really consistent differences is over time, women tend to take a little bit more time to kind of, you know, decide what they think about politics. So they might express greater uncertainty about the political, you know, choices on offer to them. That doesn't mean, of course, that women know less or that women participate less in politics.

It might also mean that there are more men with a greater tendency of expressing certainty when perhaps, you know, perhaps that's not even well founded. So, you know, it's a very interesting, it's a really interesting dynamic. Now, if you get a party like Change UK, which has struggled to cut through, which isn't polling in high numbers, which doesn't have good recognition, then it doesn't surprise me that Deborah's finding that it's the women who are kind of expressing the greater amount of uncertainty and reservation about making up their minds about a political party they just haven't seen enough of yet. Is anybody saying they want to see more of it?

I mean, is anybody saying, I feel as though they could be the party for me, but they haven't given me the information I need? I think people are saying that they're very fed up with mainstream politics. I mean, in our polling, we're hearing 83% of people saying that they feel let down by the entire political establishment. So that would suggest an appetite for something else, but I'm not sure they're getting it. But two years ago, in the general election of 2017, the two big parties, the Tories and Labour got the huge chunks of the vote people returned to them on mass since the 70s yes I think if you were going to if you're going to say like what kind of political party might be most attractive to women or younger women versus

as Deborah's saying the Brexit party which is currently looking like it's appealing more to older men on average which was of course the same about UKIP and it's appealing more to older men on average, which was, of course, the same about UKIP. And it's also the same about preferences about no deal. So that sort of all packages into kind of a set of attitudes and beliefs that we know, you know, tend to be held by older men. If you're kind of asking the question on the other side, what kind of politics might appeal to the kind of younger female cohorts, then you'd look to the politics, you know, that we saw in 2017, where we saw more younger women moving towards Labour, on average. And therefore, you might say that a party like Change UK, or indeed, like the Greens or the Liberal Democrats might be the kind

of party that would be appealing to those kinds of voters. We know, for example, again, that younger women tend to be more likely to be anti-austerity, to take more liberal positions than is certainly true of older women. So it could be that, you know, party like Change UK could have the potential to cut through. But if they're not cutting through enough in general terms, then they're not making that breakthrough amongst potential voters who are women. Nigel Farage, he's a polarising figure, but he's an incredibly effective politician. There's simply no getting away from that. What is it that some women appear not to like about this man, Deborah? I think it actually follows on a little bit from what Jane has just said.

If you look at what women value in politics, they look at politics very much through the prism of their own community, their own family, they're looking at public services, they are looking for a different quality in leadership as well. So we did a big survey on what kind of leaders people wanted to see about a year ago. And what we found was quite a distinctive gender gap where women were much more likely to value collaboration and listening skills in a leader, whereas men were more likely to look for stridency and certainty. Isn't that a bit hackneyed, the suggestion that ultimately women are simply a little bit nicer? I mean, that seems like a sweeping generalisation. I don't think it's nicer, but it's more collaborative. And I mean, Luna, let's face it, collaboration in our politics is what's missing at the moment. In a sense, our politics is set

up in a way that doesn't allow for collaboration, which is why we're not able to get a deal on Brexit through at the moment. You know, everything is very adversarial. But yes, I mean, you know, that is borne out by the evidence that that is what women are looking for. Go on, Jane. I was just going to say, myself and Rosie Shorrock, the co-author, we've done some research and we were looking at, is there any sort of, what is the gender story behind the Brexit vote? And which, of course, corresponds extremely strongly with voting for the Brexit party. So, you know, I think it's very relevant to our current time, our current context that we're thinking about now. And in our research, we found that men

who thought that men were discriminated against, rather than, you know, women being discriminated against, these men were thinking they were discriminated against, they were more likely to vote for leave. And they were more likely to vote for leave on the basis of that perception of there being some gender discrimination against men. But also, they were more likely to vote for leave if they thought there was discrimination in favour of ethnic minorities. And in a sense, what we found is, you know, quite a small but very interesting and we thought quite important finding was that it's the men who are perhaps having more of a sort of grievance or resentment based vote in terms of their support for Leave. And, you know, they're very consistent with support for the Brexit party.

We know that Farage was incredibly powerful for UKIP before, you know,'re very consistent with um support for the brexit party we know that faraj was incredibly powerful for ukip before you know really a pivotal factor in the winning of votes for ukip and so you know he has that potential um he as a person but also those kind of issues and perceptions and standing perhaps being seen to stand for men who perceive that you know society has changed in a way that they're not entirely comfortable with. And of course, you know, we're not talking about all men there. We're talking about, you know, a smaller proportion. There is no getting away from the fact that some of those men are right in their perception that women assuming their place in the world has detrimentally affected them to one degree or another.

And there has been very significant cultural and social change. And we found that men who were more likely to hold that view thought, you know, who thought they were discriminated against. We found that more men who were older and in the workforce were more likely to hold that view. And also younger men not yet in the workforce. So, you know, you might see, you know, that generation of older men who are not used to seeing that kind of working environment having to confront those changes. I go further. I think it's older men who basically look at the modern world and don't very much like what they see. Let's talk about turnout, because in the past, very few people have actually bothered, relatively speaking, to turn out for the European elections.

What would be, it was 34% turnout, by the way, last time, five years ago. Yes, it's pretty much always in the mid-30s. Well, what do you think it will be this time, Deborah? I think it's really hard to tell. You know, this time, unusually, these European elections are going to actually be about Europe. Whereas generally, European elections, like local elections, are, you know, they're a little bit about the local issues or Europe. But they're mainly an opportunity for the electorate to place a protest, to stick two fingers up to the incumbent government or to congratulate them. This time,

it will be about Europe. And it's quite hard to see how that will play out. But the group of voters who would be most likely not to turn out, i.e. the people who didn't want to have elections in the first place because they voted leave, have been, going back to Nigel Farage have been given a reason to vote with his very clear offer to place that protest so I think perhaps the turnout will hold up as it is and not drop it could even get would you think it could get up to 50% Jane or is that just crazy thinking well one thing to say is that whatever I think the turnout's going to be I think it's highly unlikely there'll be a gender gap in turnout. It's kind of been one of those myths that sometimes circulated that, you know, because women are expressing greater uncertainty in surveys that they're not as engaged. That's not true. Women are turning out across elections in as high numbers as men. It's really difficult to guess

what turnout's going to be in these elections because they are so unique. And, you know, what's going to be really important about turnout is going to be whether the Leave supporting parties manage to mobilise, get their voters to the polls in higher numbers than the Remain supporting political parties. And that's, you know, that's going to be absolutely crucial. Turnout was very important in 2016. Turnout could go up. It's very, very, it's such a unique election. It's extremely difficult to predict. Well, full coverage across the BBC. The elections are on May the 23rd, but actually the counting is on the Sunday night. So you'll get the results first thing on bank holiday Monday morning. That's right, isn't it? Thank you very much. Jane Green, Professor of

Politics at Nuffield College, Oxford, and Deborah Mattinson, founding partner of research and strategy consultancy Britain Thinks. Thank you both very much. At BBC Women's Hour, if you'd like to get involved on social media in that conversation. Now, tomorrow on the show, Jenny's going to be talking to Sally Wainwright, the writer of the new BBC series with Sharan Jones, Gentleman Jack, also, of course, the woman behind some fantastic shows in the past Scott and Bailey, Lars Tango in Halifax, she's been responsible for some terrific stuff, so Sally Wainwright on the show tomorrow and on Thursday one of our favourites returns

Nigel Slater who brought me blue cheese puffs a couple of years ago and I still make them every single Christmas, I enjoy them even if no one else does he's going to talk about the delights of spring and summer vegetables on Thursday's edition of Woman's Hour. Now, as part of a season about mental health across the BBC, a 40-year-old woman we're calling Melanie is going to tell her story now of living with Dissociative Identity Disorder. Now, Melanie was sexually and physically abused until the age of 29.

And health professionals say that she developed numerous alternative personalities or alters, which Melanie calls her petals. Now, when one of the petals takes over, Melanie can't hear them. She calls it losing time. There are at the moment no official guidelines for the treatment of DID and some pretty lurid depictions of the condition in the media haven't really been terribly helpful. Enna Miller spent nearly a year building enough trust for this interview to happen. You'll also hear during the course of it from a woman we're calling Sarah who works for Rape Crisis and knows Melanie and her alternative personalities well. This is their story.

I was diagnosed when I was 22. The first time I heard of it was from my therapist at the time and she basically got out a set of Russian dolls and said it looks like one doll, but inside that doll there's several other dolls and that basically represents me and within me there are several other personalities and when them personalities come out I lose awareness of what they're doing saying that it's a complete blank and then when I'm next back out as Melanie

the last thing I will remember is the thing that I did physically myself. And what was that like to hear that? It was actually quite a relief because I was actually getting quite stressed and anxious and a partner at the time was also highlighting I'd say and do things. His mum got really angry with me. She collected these ornaments and I'd basically sat and broke it. But even though the proof was there I refused to acknowledge I'd basically sat and broke it but even though the proof was there I refused to acknowledge I'd broken it so it started causing a lot of problems. When the psychiatrist kind of told me I had DID I think I was a bit naive as to what it actually

meant. I realised that mental health professionals may well be able to diagnose the problem but they're not necessarily then equipped to treat it. So it was kind of, here's the diagnosis, but we're not able to really help you. Why do you think it happened? The way I kind of see it now, looking back at my childhood, is if I was basically completely overwhelmed, one of the alters would come out

and they would continue with the day whether that was going to school so in a way it meant the abuse was shared out between 10-15 alters at the time whereas if there was only me I may have committed suicide at say 15. With DID why do people use the word alter what do they mean by it? It means alternative personality. Right okay. If I'm speaking with mental health professionals then obviously these are the terms that you have to use. I come up with the name of the petals because a friend she'd write a card and she may miss one of the personalities and then there was obviously a war as to well why wasn't I included. When I said okay I want the altars to be called Petals, people would obviously write in the cards, dear Melanie

and Petals happy birthday. So the Petals kind of incorporated all of us. I think I've had DID most of my childhood. One of my first personalities has the name Molly. I saw Molly as like an imaginary friend that I used to talk to and one of the reasons I think I've developed DID and I know it's quite common in the field of disassociation is there's a history of either physical or sexual abuse. Someone had written that DID was sometimes a result of someone facing an overwhelming traumatic situation in which they feel there's no physical escape from so their mind takes them somewhere else. I used to remember thinking I was out in the fields playing with Molly instead of basically being in my room being abused.

I no longer hear voices now but I do remember as a child I could hear some of the voices for example saying things are okay. Sorry. Do you want me to switch it off off let's switch it off for a bit okay we're recording again yes i'm fine they helped you cope when you were younger but now as an adult becomes a problem because as a 40 year old woman i should now have got to the point where I'm able to hold down a job or get married and have children. And I've not been able to do that. I know that there's Molly, Pearl, Anne, Sophie and Dawn. I'm going to have to start with Sophie because of the fact she, for some reason, Sophie feels that she's the most important. And I think part of that reason is because the abusers made her feel like she was the special one. How old is she?

Sophie was kind of created, say, when I was six. So she's been six for 34 years, is it? She's not, in theory theory safe out in the world on her own because obviously other people that come across her see an adult woman they may see it as a woman with learning difficulties

So sort of describe her to me Sarah, Sarah smiling Sarah, how would you describe Sophie? Sophie is delightful she is cheeky she is kind of honest Smiling. How would you describe Sophie? Sophie is delightful. She is cheeky. She is kind of honest to the extreme, and that kind of quite naive honesty.

So she quite often asks you some very direct questions. She is fun. She likes playing games. It was actually recorded in some of my mental health notes that if I've been crying for hours, as the example was used, Sophie then comes out she's not necessarily upset. Let's talk about your mood yesterday only in the sense to introduce Dawn. I imagine Dawn to be gentle, kind, organised, efficient. I do agree actually some therapists and mental health professionals wondered whether Dawn is one of the main personalities because she is kind of relatively sort of stable doesn't have

the raging mood swings that I seem to experience Dawn has actually appeared every time I've been aware that you've been angry oh right well that makes sense because in a way I've been aware that you've been angry. Oh, right. Well, that makes sense, because in a way I've always sort of seen Dawn as like the parent. The other time Dawn appeared was when confirming times and stuff, so I suggested a time, and then the email I get back is... Exclamation, exclamation, exclamation. 6 to 7pm is going to go down like a lead balloon putting it bluntly dawn wouldn't reply like that exactly so who do you think it was i would say it

be pearl you're correct so obviously i've lived with them for long enough but i knew dawn wouldn't reply with something like that so i got that Pearl. The next email that came back to me was, Hi, Anna. Sorry for Pearl's abrupt reply. So then she was very efficient and explained X, Y and Z. Then she at the end said, If I remember rightly, you're in New York for International Women's Day. Enjoy your time there.

Best wishes, Dawn. And then she says, the trains to London at night from here are not great. I've just looked them up for you. Em will worry where we live is an unknown city for you. However, if you can manage New York, I'm sure you'll be fine, Dawn. So, Pearl.

If I could kind of dislike any of the alters, it would be Pearl. What is that like, saying that, if you say that she can hear you? Well, I know Pearl just wouldn't give a toss what I said about her. With Pearl, is that sort of abrupt sarcasm? There is, yeah. And it can err on the side of offending people. And I mean, at the moment, my therapist has said he wants to work with Pearl to find out why she's so destructive. My hair is a result of Pearl. In my opinion, it's not what you expect from a 40-year-old woman.

Now I have kind of thought to myself, well, when I look at what she used to be like, there is worse things she could be doing than dyeing my hair. So what did she used to be like? She would at one point be going out drinking and instead of coming home sensibly like I might, she decides she's going to go to sleep outside. And so I was basically fuming as to when I was drunk and then I obviously come to and wonder why I'm out with next to nothing con and yes I brought myself home safely on that occasion but there has been examples where she's basically had quite a number of one night stands putting it sort of bluntly which she's not had my permission

but she doesn't really's not had my permission, but she doesn't really think she needs my permission because of the fact she's 18, she's going to do what she wants to do. But when you try and explain that to a mental health professional or even crisis team, they kind of say, well, the fact is Pearl consentedented you can't expect the man to know which no I don't expect him to understand but then I do expect there to be a level of respect from all the alters that obviously there is only one body and yes Pearl consented but then I'm left feeling awful. And that can be frightening? Well, it is very frightening. I've got a lot of issues around being sexual with men anyway

because of the past. But she has calmed down. That hasn't been a problem now for... It's got to be two years, coming up to two years at least. You know, you're talking about Crystal and Stephanie and Danielle and Sophie, and some people might be thinking, are they excuses for her behaviour? I think you'd have to be a pretty good actor to use it as an excuse. You would certainly have to have a fantastic memory.

Some people, I can understand why they might say it's an excuse, but then the people that I know, they do see the level of distress that it causes me, and I don't think anybody really would kind of put themselves through that distress for nothing. So we've briefly mentioned her, and she's coming in and out. My name's Sarah, and I work at a rate crisis centre. I remember the first time I met Sophie and it was a...

I think it was a shock. It is very discombobulating. Out of the blue, within a split second, there is a different person in the room, a little person with a different voice, a person who would rather be sitting on the floor than sitting on the settee. Sophie will carry herself differently, she will move differently. Trusting people is a huge issue, attachment is a huge issue. In the three years we had spent a lot of time together, we had experienced what is described sometimes in the literature as

a lot of rupture and repair which is we fell out a lot and fallings out have happened really if you felt that I haven't been honest has it been at times tough for you yeah it has I can't I can't deny that. It has sometimes. I mean, I get copied into a lot of emails. We've got an agreement that I don't respond to emails because... She sends a lot. Sometimes you've had to, though, haven't you? Sometimes I've had to.

Sometimes are you ever worried for her? There have been some safeguarding concerns. It's just a huge issue. Obviously, I'm angry that the health services are not providing the support that Melanie, I think, has as a right in terms of she's got assessed needs and they're not being met. No-one answers the door unless you're expecting someone and only adult alters can answer the door yeah that that's

been a rule for many many years some of my friends get a bit frustrated that they just can't just turn up unannounced nobody goes into our bedroom the reason we put that rule in place i can't remember which one of us it was probably dawn it is to keep safe, but it's also to kind of keep the younger ones safe. Another rule is Pearl takes responsibility for the medication. Again, although Dawn was all, well, she is the sensible, logical one, there has been times over the last 18 months where she's been suicidal and she has actually took overdoses and we have been at A&E as a result so now what Pearl's decided to do it doesn't always help me she's put all the medication in like a medial

wallet and it's all locked in that drawer and the keys are hidden so even I can't get to my sleeping tablets at night. Dawn cooks healthy meals because it's safer for her because you lose time I don't always feel safe cooking a meal myself because I never know when I'm going to lose the time so Dawn has always kind of took on the responsibility of the healthy eating and I'd say she's probably a better cook than me in a way if that's possible

because I just throw it all together wherever she sort of takes her time So do you ever get to the point where you're sitting there starving but dawn hasn't come out yet? No because I would make myself something I wouldn't just kind of wait because she might not come out for another day or so. We decided to stop recording to have a bit of a break and then one of the petals Sophie has just appeared so I've just picked up my phone to record. We have permission and Sarah is just introducing us.

This is Anna who you've met. Hiya, Sophie, are you all right? And you haven't seen my teddy. What are you looking for? And that's my teddy. That one is my favourite. So it's a monkey with a pink face. That's the one we've had for loads of years.

And that's Molly's favourite one. So is this yours or whose is this? No, it's Anne's. Right. And it's a Dr. Dot book. Is your hair real? What's book. Is your hair real? What's that? Is your hair real?

I knew you were looking at my hair. Because I could tell when you were looking at me. You weren't looking at my eyes, you were looking at my hair. Yeah. Well, these are braids. Yes. So these are braids. So you take the afro and then you weave in some, I guess, fake hair?

Yes. Yeah. Have you seen it before i don't know do you want to touch it yeah yeah so you can sort of feel it's not real real real real yes but most people don't ask me that they just say it's lovely well thank you very much for talking to me so um sophie we do need em back because she's got to read her poem okay how are we going to do that you do your count Two. Two and a half. Three. Four. Five. Pearl, she's going to be here all day, you know that. Well, I know, but anyway, we're sorting that now. I don't know what to count her for because she's going to piss about.

Well, it sorted itself, didn't it? Yeah. Can I ask a naive question? Mm. Who have we got? Sorry, this is Pearl. What, are you actually going to use it, though? Because if not, there's no point in me reading it, is there?

Well, I think I will use it. It's quite long, so we can shorten it. Well, Melanie wrote it herself. It's called Russian Dolls. I am like a set of Russian dolls. Some days I stand tall and completed. My strength keeps us all together, And together we are undefeated So what do you think of the poetry?

Well, I think it's all right, I guess. It's not something that I would do. Do you feel proud of her when she does things like that? In a way, she's moping about because most of the time when she's written the poetry has been when she's written the poetry has been when she's been in a mood or upset so she sat writing the poems when she could be out doing something. What's it like being the petals? If I could just be on my own and

get rid of all of them I probably would I'm not sure I'd choose many to keep if any. Why do you think you're so different well we all came out at something significant so there was significant events of abuse at 18 so then i'm here how do you speak to each other how do you communicate with each other well we've always been able to just hear each other melanie's back i don't know who to speak first. So basically we were talking to Pearl and Melanie has just come back. My poem is there, was there. So that needs reading out.

I know, have you done it? Pearl's just read it out. Oh, okay. Is that all right? Have you done everything? Because she's late going home that's what i'm worried about now okay so my last question is you sent me an email and this is what you wrote today someone asked me why do i hold a birthday for my alters on the 9th of april many

years ago we suffered horrendous abuse and then lost a dear friend on this day. My alters had the pain and terror, so I don't have to. So they deserve celebrating as well. They share the good, the bad and the ugly because it's too much for a unified self. Having DID is a testament to my strength and determination for survival. So happy birthday to all my alters. I'm glad you were all created. Over the years we have all pulled together and made it. That is a and Sarah. They were talking to our reporter, Enna Miller. Details of organisations offering information and support with mental health are available at bbc.co.uk slash action line. And that address is on our website as well, of course. And tomorrow, you can hear from Heather, who is living with bipolar disorder. But I hope you

agree with me that it was long, but it was it was incredibly important I think for us to try to engage with the experience of what is now known as disassociative identity disorder. Now to a debut novel by a woman called Joanne Ramos a former investment banker which is creating an enormous buzz you might well have read some of the reviews of The Farm already. The farm in question is Golden Oaks. And Golden Oaks, Joanne, is set in rolling countryside. It's absolutely gorgeous. But what's going on at Golden Oaks? So at Golden Oaks, you get everything

if you're a woman staying there. You get daily massages, gourmet food, and it's actually for free. It's just one catch, isn't there? There is a catch. And that is that for the nine months of your stay, you can't leave the grounds and you're monitored. And you're carrying?

You're carrying a baby of some of the richest people in the world. You're a surrogate who's leased her womb for the chance to make life-changing money. How did you get the idea? So the ideas behind the farm have been stewing in my mind for most of my life, but the trigger was a small article in the Wall Street Journal. And it was about a surrogacy facility in India. And that's all the research I really did in the sense that once I got the idea of a surrogacy facility,

the what if started brewing. We should say at this point that commercial surrogacy has now been made illegal in India. Yes. But there is no doubt that it was happening. It was happening. And again, I didn't do research. But since the book has come out, I've Googled it a bit. And there are facilities in Thailand that have been shut down. A friend of mine told me that he has a friend who used one in Russia. I don't know how above the ground they are, but they exist. And they're likely, aren't they, to increase in popularity? What do you think about that?

Maybe deeply, well, it is deeply unsettling for many of our listeners. But what do you think? You know, we, well, it is deeply unsettling for many of our listeners, but what do you think? You know, we become more and more comfortable, I think, commodifying more and more parts of our lives. And I can see it happening, even a luxury facility. I just don't know that it's that far off if it doesn't exist already quietly somewhere. I was trying to explain it to some teenagers yesterday. And actually, one of them said, essentially, what I started the program with today, why would you put yourself through the agonies?

And there can be agonies of pregnancy and childbirth and the repercussions if you didn't have to. And there will be women growing up right now who perhaps if they're incredibly affluent will think, nah, won't bother with that because there might be a better alternative for me. Yes, both my publishers in the UK and also the States did surveys actually on this. And it turns out that a lot of young women

would do it for the money and for the chance to be able to do what it is they want to do in life. Let's say you're an artist or something. So it works both ways. So some young women are attracted by the chance to be surrogates because it would set them up for life. Exactly.

And others would say, if I earned a few quid or had a few quid, I'd let someone else do it for me. Right, that's right. So what we can't deny is that this is a very real situation. Yes. Okay, let's go back a little bit. Your own family history, I think, maybe allows you to have more insight than most into the sort of women who might be tempted by this line of work. Yes, I was born in the Philippines.

We moved to Wisconsin when I was six. And in my town then, which was a small town in Wisconsin in the late 1970s, in the wake of a lot of auto manufacturing closings, there weren't that many other Asian families in my town. But my father's family lived in a town about 20 minutes away, and they were part of a small but tight Filipino community. So I did grow up having both, feeling very different but also being part of something bigger. And then you flash forward after a career in finance and writing for The Economist to my 30s when I'm having kids in New York City. And it occurs to me that the only Filipinas I know day to day in the parks and playgrounds that had become my orbit were Filipina housekeepers, baby nurses, domestic workers.

And it just reinforced a feeling I've had since college, really, that what separates my life from theirs and my kids' lives and opportunities from theirs has as much to do with any luck than merit. This idea of the American meritocracy is really quite hollow if you examine it at all. Well, you, of course, at least saw these women because of your own heritage. Yes. Presumably, you might well have been in a minority and even acknowledging their existence. Yes. And it was funny because, especially my daughter, I have three children. She doesn't look that much like me.

And so several times I was pushing her around in her stroller and people would ask me if her mother was Indian. And I would say, no, I'm her mother. And so I feel I was often confused for some of these women. And maybe because I'm chatty or maybe because we share a cultural heritage, I think it's both. They were very open with me, and a few of them became my friends. And so I would hear these stories about the dormitories that some of them live in, renting beds by a half day to save money, about how a number of them left children back home in Manila or elsewhere in the Philippines to earn money in New York by taking care of other people's kids. So it's that sort of thing that made me want to write this book.

And I think it's very powerful, the beginning of this novel, which does focus on exactly that. These women, this unseen army of women striving in huge American cities. And their living conditions, are they grim? You describe them as being just about bearable. In the dormitory? They're crowded, but they're not necessarily any grimmer than people who have to shack up

with roommates out of school. I mean, it's definitely more crowded than that. What's interesting is since I wrote the book, I have met a lot of readers, some from the Middle East or Hong Kong, who will tell me that these dormitories exist there too, because so much of the labor in those countries is imported from the Philippines and elsewhere.

I just hadn't heard of them in the States until I befriended some of these women. Any one of us, me included, or people listening now who have employed someone else to look up, look after their children. We're in this, we're part of this conversation, whether we're happy to acknowledge it or not. And many of us would consider ourselves woke folk who like to be generous employers, to be decent. But we only go so far, don't we, actually? You know, it's funny you say that. I've been thinking a lot about how friends I know and myself included, because I have had women help me raise my kids, we like to say,

oh, they're part of the family. But they're not really. But they're not, right? When it comes down to it, they're part of the family. But they're not really. But they're not, right? When it comes down to it, they're not. And I think that statement is a story we tell, at least I'll speak for myself, that I maybe have told myself to make myself more comfortable with it

without examining it more. There'll be plenty of people squirming at this, I tell you, and I'm really interested. There was one particular part of the book where it's, well, there are any number of characters, think four significant voices aren't there across the novel but one is is ate who is a filipino lady who has devoted her entire professional life in the united states to raising other people's kids particularly in in the early days and weeks and i love this this bit about the very very early days of a child's life. She was known as the baby whisperer.

They did not know that Atte stood all night over the crib in the darkened nursery, holding a pacifier to the baby's lips. When the baby fussed, she lifted him to her drooping chest and rocked him until he was drowsy but not yet asleep. Then she'd put him down again, night after night this way until the baby was accustomed to

eating only during the day and falling asleep by itself at night. She developed a sterling reputation. My jobs are the best jobs with the best people, she liked to say. But her employers never knew. They didn't even know she was awake, did they, during the night? I had a few friends who are still baby nurses and they would tell me what they would call their secrets and the things they would do to get the babies to sleep. And their point was, if you can get babies to sleep early, the parents love you.

Yes. And then you stay with that family and then you move on. And discretion is everything in these roles, isn't it? Did you, in your research, did you come across people who were willing to tell tales on the people who'd employed them? Yes, and it was less and it wasn't even research. It was just when I was in the parks with my kids and I would sit on the bench with a nanny or someone who became my friend who was a nanny, and they would tell me these stories. And, you know, the stories range.

I have one friend who told me how her long-term employer helped her buy her first apartment because she'd been with the family for so long. And then you'd hear stories from other people who felt like they were never seen or it's that I really can't imagine going into work and having to sense if your boss is in a good mood or not because some days she wants to chat with you about your kids and some days she needs her own space. But the nanny is the one who has to navigate that every day. And that was a story that really resonated with me because I realized I work at home and I have had people helping me in the past. And did I ever do that?

Were there moments when I didn't feel like talking that I exuded impatience, but other moments when I wanted to chat with her? And what position did that put her in? Yeah, it's a very, very fascinating area. And I know that the book has been very favorably reviewed. Some people have picked up on a kind of moral ambivalence at the heart of it. But actually, you would say, I think, that you are fairly ambivalent about this trade, aren't you?

Well, it's also that I, and I think this is why I had foreign narrators, I had no interest in writing about saints or villains. I wanted to examine where we are today. And I think that we all play a role, sort of as we've just spoken about, we all play a role in it. And I don't know that even Mayu, who's the character who runs this farm, she's a complicated, I tried to make her complicated. I didn't want to take a stand. I wanted readers to walk away and think to themselves, if this makes me uncomfortable, why? The author of The Farm, Joanne Ramos, and you have been emailing about that conversation. Rocio, I hope I've pronounced your name correctly. Let's hope that's more or less accurate.

This listener says, if one chooses to not be pregnant and not give birth, maybe you're not mother material. It's voluntarily missing the most sweet and revitalising experience of your life. How far can one go to live in this hedonistic parallel universe? If you're planning to avoid suffering, don't be a mother because pregnancy and birth is the easy bit. Having children just to keep up with the Joneses is cruel and unnecessary. From Mary, listening to your item on the book The Farm, I'm both saddened and appalled. To think of women who have to leave their countries and their children to raise other people's children makes me despair both of the world and of women. How can anyone who's a mother themselves not see the pain

of another mother parted from her children? If you don't want to give birth to your own child, why become a mother in the first place? I believe this is exploitation of the worst kind. As I say, genuinely, it makes me despair, says Mary. From Mary Lynn, just listening to your interview with Joanne Ramos, and her ideas about surrogacy. This, as well as the sale of body parts, has been going on for some time now, and it's a reflection of the level of capitalism in the world. However, where I disagree with you both is the idea that mothers should feel a sense of guilt about other people bringing up their children.

Before you begin to discuss this, speak with the adults who've been brought up with a nanny. Thank you. Before you start feeling guilty, which is a very negative and destructive emotion about nannies, think about how the children themselves feel. Mary Lynn, thank you. That's interesting. Now, some comments on the first conversation about the forthcoming European elections. And what you're about to hear now is a little bit of BBC balance. Here we go. This from Rafe. I intensely dislike Nigel Farage. I'm a man and 50-something.

As far as I'm concerned, he and his cronies are traitors to humanism and they bring the UK into dispute amongst a world that hates this old imperial power. They will enact revenge through trade and Nigel Farage has orchestrated this calamity. The view of Rafe. This is the view of Helena. Good morning. I'm an avid listener to your... I like that good morning, by the way.

Can we just... Just let's encourage that kind of thing. There's no excuse for bad manners and a good morning is welcome. Good morning. I am an avid listener to your programme, but I would like to highlight the topic on the Brexit Party and Nigel Farage.

The Brexit Party are the party for me, and I say this as a 21-year-old female who voted to leave. The only discrimination I feel is the misrepresentation and constant silencing of the group of women that I belong to. I think that Nigel Farage is charismatic as a leader. He understands that democracy is what the current discussion should be about. Men may outwardly say they support him whilst women remain naturally quieter on the matter. But that does not mean his female supporters don't exist. Thank you. Now, to the conversation that Enna Miller, our reporter, had with the woman we are calling Melanie about disassociative identity

disorder. Now, on the whole, well, in fact, I think, yes, absolutely, not even on the whole, everyone who heard that and commented thought it was a real, real insight. Julie said that was incredible. The human brain's capability to invent such a safety mechanism is truly amazing. Good luck to Melanie and to her petals. From Laurie, what a fascinating interview with the woman with multiple personalities. I wonder whether anybody else remembers the film Sybil with Sally Field about a woman subjected to terrible abuse by her mother. It was both terrifying and testament to the human will to survive.

From Eva, thank you for that incredible piece on disassociated personality disorder, informative and clear. Thank you to the generous and courageous woman who did that interview. And so said many of you. So I'm just going to, yeah, what an extraordinary interview,

hugely enlightening and a brave, brave lady. And from Rachel, really interesting. I'd heard about this disorder before but this interview helped to explain how it manifests itself and just how challenging it must be for melanie to live with it incredibly impressed her courage going on national radio to talk about it well quite um rachel exactly what i was thinking um huge huge respect for melanie that isn't her real name, but I really do wish her the very, very best

because it was powerful listening, to put it mildly. Now, tomorrow on the programme and the podcast, Jenny's guests include the brilliant creator of so much fabulous telly, Sally Wainwright. She's the woman who's written Gentleman Jack with Sharan Jones, which I think starts on Sunday night, BBC One, nine o'clock. We'll all be there in our rather unpleasant dressing gowns to enjoy a slice of prime BBC drama.

Join Jenny tomorrow. Thanks for listening. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.