Woman's Hour - Liz Carr on assisted dying, Money in relationships, Singer Rachel Chinouriri

Episode Date: May 9, 2024

The debate on assisted dying is often framed around the issues of choice for the terminally ill, but what about the rights of the disabled ? Actor and disability rights campaigner Liz Carr has major concerns about potential changes to the law that she believes could leave people with disabilities at risk. She joins Clare McDonnell to discuss her documentary “Better Off Dead” which explores the debate from the perspective of disabled people. Singer songwriter Rachel Chinouriri is one of the music industry’s rising stars, gaining plaudits from celebrity fans, including Adele, Sophie Turner and Florence Pugh, for her nostalgic Indie sounds. Rachel performs live in the Woman’s Hour studio and talks about her first album, What A Devastating Turn Of Events, which is an intimate exploration of Rachel’s experiences and relationships. Money is a topic many of us don't feel comfortable talking about. Be it in a romantic relationship, with our parents or even with our friends. But it's a topic that financial psychotherapist Vicky Reynal says is vitally important when it comes to our relationships. She joins Clare to discuss her new book, Money on Your Mind: The Psychology Behind Your Financial Habits, and how working on our financial wellbeing can help us in our lives.The former head of the Spanish Football Federation, Luis Rubiales, will stand trial for sexual assault over his behaviour in the Women's World Cup game against England last summer. He gave an unsolicited kiss to player Jenni Hermoso which was caught on camera and broadcast to billions worldwide, provoking fierce backlash and a national debate over sexism in Spain. Spain based sports journalist Molly McElwee explains the reaction in Spain. Presenter: Clare McDonnell Producer: Olivia Skinner

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Clare Macdonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Today we take a look at assisted dying through the lens of disability. Liz Carr, the brilliant actress you may know from Silent Witness or Good Omens, is also a long-time campaigner for disability rights. She has major concerns about what a change in the law could mean for people like her

and how recent reforms to disability benefits outlined by the Prime Minister could also be a major factor in the issue of disabled people and assisted dying. Liz joins me in the Woman's House studio. She's a seriously exciting new talent on the UK music scene. She's Rachel Chinneriri. She's shortlisted for the BBC Sound of 2023 and the Ivor Novello Rising Star Award. She grew up in Croydon, the daughter of child soldiers from Zimbabwe. She's not only reframing traditionally male-centred indie music,

but also the flag of St George. Delighted to say Rachel will be playing for us live in the studio. Now, if you find it difficult to talk about money, deal with money, manage money, then take a breath, relax and lie back on the financial psychotherapy couch with us this morning. Vicky Raynell is a financial psychotherapist and in her new book she tries to get to the emotional drivers that underpin our relationship

with money so if you find it difficult to talk finances especially in a relationship then vicky is here to help you can get in touch let us know about the times you found it challenging to talk about money you can text text the programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we are at BBC Woman's Hour and you can email us through our

website. And also, former head of the Spanish Football Federation, Luis Rubiales will stand trial for sexual assault over his unsolicited kiss of a Women's World Cup player, Jenny Hermoso. So what will this groundbreaking trial mean for the wider treatment of women in the game going forward? Spain-based sports journalist Moni McElwee will be joining me later. All to come on Women's Hour. I'm really looking forward to hearing from you as well.

But let's start this morning with a debate on assisted dying. It's often framed around the issues of autonomy and consent for the terminally ill. But what about the rights of the disabled? Well, actor and disability rights campaigner Liz Carr has major concerns about potential changes to the law she believes would leave marginalised people, including some of those with disabilities, at much greater risk. She says the possibility of it happening for her is terrifying. And she's made a documentary for the BBC on this called Better Off Dead. Here's a clip. If you're a visibly disabled person, the chances are that somebody,

often a complete stranger, will have come up to you and said something like, gosh, if I was like you, I couldn't go on. I'd rather be dead. I've had it said to my face, in front of people. I've had it said at work. A friend saying, well, you know, if your condition progresses to the point where you can't feel yourself, you know that I'd be happy to do it for you. And this wasn't someone I was particularly close you can't feel yourself, you know that I'd be happy to do it for you. And this wasn't someone I was particularly close to. If my life was like yours, I'd want to kill myself. He actually told me that I should go and kill myself

because, you know, then I'd stop being a drain on society. See? Better off dead. Delighted to say Liz Carr joins me in the studio. Good morning. Good morning. So there we go. It's quite a bold introduction to this documentary, but I guess it encapsulates what a lot of disabled people have heard said to them. Why did you want to start it in that way? I wanted to explain why I was making this and why it felt important and really to go step by step through what my fears are

and other disabled people so you know if you're pro-assisted suicide why are you supportive choice one word if you oppose I mean you need a you need an hour-long documentary really to do that it's very complicated it's not straightforward as straightforward as I'm sure we can grasp that. So I wanted to show you, I guess, show viewers that on an everyday basis, disabled people are dealing with a lower expectation and people actually saying to their faces, gosh, surely it's better to be dead than be you. That happens. It's shocking shocking so I wanted that to be the starting point and then let's unravel why that is and how that leads to my fear of legalizing assisted suicide what was so revelatory for me as an able-bodied person and I think quite revolutionary is hearing that perspective

in the context of assisted suicide and also separate from it as well that you have the voices your voice leading the voices of disabled people talking about how they are viewed how able-bodied society views disabled people through the lens of being able-bodied that's that's really interesting why was it important for you to make that point so clearly i mean i think i can't make it any other way. If I was going to put my name and my face to a documentary like this, which arguably is controversial because it's going against what we see as the mainstream often, then I needed it to reflect me,

I needed it to have integrity, and I needed it to represent a community, a group of people that I'm part of. Now, if you're screaming at the radio, no, of course I don't speak for all disabled people and I don't claim to at all. Thankfully, we're not one big group and we have lots of different views. However, a lot of the explorations of the discrimination and the way that we're viewed in society, I think we share that across the board,

whether you believe that we should legalise medically assisted dying or we shouldn't. So it starts and what is radical, I think, is not only the music that we have in the show, but also the way that we take this from a disability rights perspective. And as you said, I think from my gaze, from somebody who lives in a world where, you know, if I'm recognised in the street, then people are giddy and excited and it's wonderful. If I'm not recognised in the street, then I'm ignored or sometimes I'm glanced at as if I'm just trouble and I'm a problem and, oh, God, have we got to get the ramp out? Oh, I'm just a pain.

So that difference shows me that we... Often times, I think, disabled people are just tolerated. And I think that's the same with ill people and older people. And I think all those groups would be affected by these laws. We'll get on to that in a second. But I thought it was really interesting. Is the movie called You Before Me? Me Before You. Me Before You. Tell us the story. And there's footage in the documentary of you protesting with fellow protesters outside the premiere to this.

Yes. Tell us why. Well, Me Before You, based on Jojo Moy's hugely successful book, Romance, actually, was made into a film, a rom-com, about a guy, successful, attractive, conventionally attractive, young man, wealthy, who becomes disabled in an accident, then doesn't want to, you know, not very happy with his lot, understandably. Then they employ, I think of her as a hapless carer who comes along and they fall in love. And then, as I say, in all good rom-coms he decides to go to dignitas to end his life yeah and that and the hashtag of the film was live boldly and it was like oh my goodness it's live boldly but not if you're disabled what's the message

and more than anything else i've ever seen in terms of the media, internationally, disabled people, whatever they thought on this subject, said, I'm fed up of the message that it is better to be dead than to be me. That being disabled is seen as so tragic and so awful. what they suffer from are the barriers and the obstacles, the fact they have to fight for support, the fact there isn't social care, the fact of attitudes, the fact of lack of access to so many things. You know, we do suffer. So don't then make it legal to end that suffering through assisted suicide. That's the fear. And that's what's happening we see in Canada. Yes, we'll get onto that. Because I just wanted to sort of let people know, because I've seen the documentary, and I just sort of lay out the kind of ground terrain where you say this is the this is the base point we're starting from. Yeah. As disabled people, we're seeing sort of so

far down the pecking order that bringing in this kind of law may be risky. Now you go to Canada, lots of people will say, but you know, you have to have it's legalised, it has to be signed off. And there are protections. What did you find in Canada? So absolutely, wherever there is a law, there are things called safeguards. But certainly in Canada, they've been changed and removed to a degree. So in Canada, it began just for terminally ill people. And then over the years, it was changed. So now you didn't have to be just terminal, or only have six months to live. Therefore, it's for people who are seen as suffering intolerably and have a medical condition. That covers a lot of disabled people. And we believe it was meant to be this year, but it's been postponed. That also includes people with mental illness and mental health problems. So, you know, what we saw over there is an expansion that absolutely includes disabled people, but it also includes disabled people choosing to use it

because of socioeconomic reasons. And that is, I say it's terrifying, that's what was terrifying. Right, and you also meet a man who had been homeless previously and tell us his story tell us his name and and what he was concerned about. So Amir Farsood broke my heart and is probably for me the most impactful interview that I did on a personal level. So here you have a disabled man who applied for MAID which which is Medical Assistance in Dying.

That's what they call it in Canada. He was going to become homeless. Now, in his youth, he'd been homeless. He knew he couldn't endure that as a disabled person. He tried. The waiting list for affordable social housing, because he was on benefits, was over a decade. He applied for MAID for euthanasia. He told his doctor why.

He qualified because of his medical conditions, but the suffering was absolutely because of poverty and homelessness. So he got approved. And then somebody found out about this. We're not happy with it. And it became public and a crowd funder was established. And within three way, but I'm speaking to a funny, smart, incredible human who told me that it had been an easier process to get euthanasia or qualify for euthanasia than to qualify for benefits in Ontario, Canada. Six months for

benefits on the whole and three months months for maid. That just, like I say, it broke me. And to be talking to a man, it's like dead man walking, really. He wouldn't be here. So how many other lives, how many casualties, how much collateral damage are we prepared to accept if we have assisted suicide in the UK? I guess what you could say to counter that is there are places where they haven't gone down the slippery slope. The think tank centre found that US states like Oregon, California, Washington, Victoria and Western Australia, where assisted dying laws are in place, There is no evidence of that slippery slope. Is it not an argument to look where that has happened

and ensure that it doesn't happen here? So the majority of countries where it's legal, it has extended or it began for a bigger group of people. Absolutely. I mean, in the States, we should also remember it's only 11 states. So the majority of the states have said no or have not even debated it. Absolutely. Oregon, just for terminally ill people. But I guess what I'd say there is there is still, if you want it,

if your doctor doesn't think you qualify, you go to a doctor who does. There's a thing called doctor shopping. So there are doctors who support this. We see that in Canada, certainly. And that's what happens. So the safeguards dwindle. And will it change in those countries? I think it potentially will. We're already seeing in the UK, so we haven't even got the law, but already there are campaigners who are pushing for it to be wider than just for terminal illness. And once it becomes wider than terminal illness,

then we become like Canada. You do cover a range of views in your documentary. And there'll be lots of people listening to this. And you put the caveat in that not all disabled people would agree with your point of view. They will want that personal choice as well. You spoke to journalist Melanie Reid, who was left paralysed after a horse riding accident in 2010. And she brilliantly articulately says, you know, she understands that range as well. But she says the autonomy, the choice that the ultimate choice that she should have couldn't do it themselves, who physically can't end their own lives.

Then it became about pain and suffering. And it's really interesting that it now feels like it's about choice and control and autonomy. And one of my arguments, and I talked about that with Melanie, don't know what's, I can't remember whether it's in the programme, was about then where do we stop? Because actually, if it's for suffering, any kind of suffering, why shouldn't it be for everybody? Now, by the way, I am not condoning that we have medically assisted suicide for everyone, but autonomy applies across the board. So why is her suffering or my suffering

more deserving of medical assistance to end our lives. And I talk about this a lot. So if there's a non-disabled person who, for example, in Canada, or it could be over here, wants to end their life, I feel that we have a different response to it. I believe that we look at suicide prevention, that we look at saying, you know, what can we do to change you from fit? We don't see it as a desirable thing to want to end your life. But when you become disabled, or you are, that desire to end your life is met with less prevention and more, how can we help you?

How can we make that happen? It's about autonomy. And you would say, there's a very moving shot at the end of the documentary, when you're standing on the South Bank, looking at the wall of hearts from the people lost to covid you would say we've we have evidence that this could potentially be the case because we've already been here with covid explain i absolutely was chilled to the core during covid seeing the way that some lives were viewed i could i understand

that we were in unprecedented times as as we kept hearing. We were. Decisions were being made on the hoof and bad decisions, but bad decisions from the top were being made. Would I trust a subject like this to a government, to any government? Absolutely not. And I think when you've relied on the state for support, for that net to protect you. And that net is failing. When they think that they do give you is support to end your life. But it's like, let's get everything else in there first. Let's look at giving people choices over their deaths, yes, and their lives. And that includes so many things. And it doesn't have to include assisted suicide. But yeah, I think for me, the way that the government dealt with certain groups of people's lives and how it felt that some of us were disposable. That to me is why we, as long as there's that inequality, it is not safe to legalise.

No amount of safeguards will prevent us from mistakes and abuse and coercion. That's my belief. There has been a poll recently, the most recent poll on this from Ipsos last year, found that 65% of Brits think it should be legal for a doctor to assist a patient aged 18 or older in ending their life. So clearly public opinion is shifting on this. It's not shifting. Okay, why is it not shifting?

Yeah, because public opinion polls, and you can look at this, and I can't think of the one that it's called, but somebody will probably correct me or whatever, have been around that figure since the 80s. So it's not that this has suddenly shot up. We're led to believe, oh, it's at this crescendo. No, on the whole, and I understand why. Because we're all human beings, and hopefully we all care about each other, right?

So if you say to somebody, would you like somebody at the end of their life to suffer or not? Of course we don't want them to suffer. And we're fed. I mean, that's part of this program is about restoring some balance in this discussion. Because I don't think we hear enough about all the different opinions. If you're opposed, you're often seen as being right-wing, or you're seen as being religious. Actually, there are many people who oppose.

So this is about saying there are a multiplicity of views. Polls are fine. But when the consequences of a law mean that we will change our relationship with the medical profession and that mistakes would be the end of somebody's life, opinion polls are not a way to bring in a law like that. Well, there will be debate and there will be discussion and there will be a vote

in the Commons because Rishi Sunak has said that, you know, that will happen and if Keir Starmer were to become the Prime Minister of this country, he said that would happen as well. But just before you go, I want to ask you, the Prime Minister Rishi Sun, he said that would happen as well. But just before you go, I want to ask you, the Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, outlined this package of reforms

to put work at the heart of welfare, proposed reforms to disability benefits as well. You're concerned that this too potentially might feed into the argument around assisted suicide. Do you call it assisted suicide? Just briefly, why? Yeah, because that's what I believe it is. It's not just for people who are dying.

It's for people who want to end their life at any point. So that's why I believe, and I believe we call it what it is, and it is somebody wanting to end their life regardless of the reason. So absolutely. Your question again? If there's changes to someone's socioeconomic situation, I think you outlined with the gentleman you met in Canada, you're concerned that these disability benefit reforms could lead into that. Thank you. Yeah, we talk about choice. We also talk about coercion. I don't think that we're going to be carted off to the euthanasia clinics against our will. That's the worst of it. I think we'll choose it, but we will choose it because our living situation is so untenable because we won't qualify for benefits. The benefits will be removed. We'll be seeing the scroungers yet again.

That safety net will be removed and yet it will be replaced with assisted suicide. The worst is that coercion will come from ourselves and basically from, I think, the system. And that is what makes this worse. We will choose it. That will make everybody feel better. But we will choose it because we've got no choice, no other options, because our support is being removed systematically.

Liz, thank you so much for coming into the Woman's Hour studio. It is a brilliant documentary with an entirely new perspective. It's called Better Off Dead. It's on BBC One at nine o'clock on Tuesday, the 14th of May, next Tuesday. Thanks so much for dropping by. Thank you. Lovely to meet you. Lots of you getting in touch on this topic.

Please do keep your texts coming in. The text number is 84444. This texter, so very happy to hear this disability rights perspective on Woman's Hour. I am deeply worried about the issues raised and I haven't heard them discussed like this before. That's from Karina. Thank you, Karina. And this texter, I have worked with people with terminal illness, MND specifically,

for many years and thought long and hard about euthanasia as I always want to advocate for a person's rights and needs. However, my conclusion is that it should not be legalised. People want to do it out of guilt and to remove the burden from their relatives.

They may feel it is something they should do. Keep your texts coming in, 84844. It's good to have a wide range of views there. We really do appreciate you getting in touch. Now we welcome into the Women's Hour studio one of the rising stars on the UK music scene. Rachel Chinnuri was shortlisted for the BBC Sound of 2023 in the Ivor Novello Rising Star Award,

and she's won plaudits from fans including Adele, Sophie Turner and Florence Pugh, who stars in one of Rachel's music videos, playing her supportive best mate. Her debut album is What a Devastating Turn of Events. It encapsulates nostalgic indie sounds, many from before she was born, and intimate lyrics about her own experiences and relationships. Let's take a listen. This is The Garden of Eden.

Beautiful, isn't it? Delighted to say Rachel joins me in the Women's Hour studio. Good morning. Hi. Great to have you here. Thank you for having me. You're going to perform for us live. Hello to AC, who's behind you on the guitar. She's waving. You can't hear her but she's saying hello.

I'm really looking forward to hear you perform live. Let's talk about the new album first of all. One journalist described it as the indie sleaze revival we deserve. How are you indie? That doesn't sound very indie to me. I know. I think it's quite experimental. I think there's, I guess, I listened to a lot of like, I don't know. I guess it's just like the guitar, the songwriting and the feeling behind the songs. But I think in my album, I range between lots of different genres. I think Garden of Eden is definitely maybe one of the least indie-est on there. But it's, I think, the nature of how I wanted the whole album to transcend. I think a lot of it is inspired by the early 10s and early noughties.

So there's bits and bobs of indie, but there's, you know, a lot of pop on there. There's a little bit, maybe a more soulful track with What a Devastating Turn of Events, which is the album track. There's quite a bit of variety on the album. Do you find as a woman in the industry that people are always trying to, and I guess I've just done it as well, try to categorise you and say, I love your sound.

It sounds very sort of specific to you. But I guess it's quite interesting that a woman with a guitar who is bringing those elements of indie music in, which I guess maybe put you in, maybe a lot of it was before you were born. People want to identify you and box you in. Does that frustrate you?

I think it frustrated me more before. I think there's a degree of also in this day and age, there's so much, I want to say genre bending. There's a lot of influences from lots of different genres. So I don't think you can really specifically say something is one thing. But I think as like a black woman in the industry, even if my music really wasn't R&B soul at all, it would just be called that just simply because I was black. And if I would make music which shouldn't stereotypically, quote unquote, sound like black music, then there was a whole thing of oh this is great but we don't know what to call it and there was points I was getting called like the hip-hop Lily Allen and it

was it was so bizarre yeah I don't hear that and I realized it was because I was black so so yeah it was quite difficult yeah and do you look to people like Ray who's just cleaned up at the Brits she's an artist who went her own way yeah they tried to box her in they tried to push her in a certain direction does that give you hope that here you are you know and you're getting the plaudits now who went her own way. They tried to box her in. They tried to push her in a certain direction. Does that give you hope that here you are, and you're getting the plaudits now, and everyone's saying she's one to watch, but does that help you set your own course

through the music industry? Yeah, I think seeing Ray's story was quite, I want to say sad at points, but really inspirational because she's kind of gone against what maybe many artists have feared doing and she went to Brit I wasn't at Brit at the time she was at Brit but I was a massive fan of her writing and singing before but seeing where her album is and realising now I'm in the industry I can maybe understand the things more knowing what she'd gone through from what she'd said

and now understand being a woman in the industry is is through from what she'd said and now understand being a woman in the industry is is so tough and she was getting boxed in and I feel lucky that we we've we've seen a star like rise she's always been a star but it's almost like in her own realm and world and her singing like her voice is just insane wish I could sing like that beautifully but yeah she's she, she's got the pipes. She certainly has. Your lyrics, we're going to hear you sing in a second. Your lyrics are very personal, intimate.

You talk about betrayal. There's also female friendship and support. And the video for Never Need Me, good example. Florence Pugh, the actress, plays your supportive best mate. So how did she get in touch? Well, she DM'd me on instagram um well actually she came to my show at cross the tracks in 2022 i think with her friends and i had no clue who she was at the point but then i watched midsummer like a year or so after and then i was

like oh she is actually quite successful and a great actor actually um then she followed me on instagram so it wasn't a surprise but was kind of a surprise and then she messaged me saying love your music and then i replied saying would you like to be in my music video and very surprisingly she was like yeah let's do it that's fantastic um so listen there's so much else i want to ask you about but i'll let you stand up and take a quick shuffle over to the microphone there, because we're going to hear a track from your new album. It's a it's a song about friendship. And this one is called So My Darling. AC is on a guitar. Rachel Chinnery, take it away.

Simply stunning. I'm it sounds like one person slapping, but I can assure you the entire country is at home, wherever they're listening, clapping that before. It's just beautiful. AC, thank you for that wonderful accompaniment as well. Thank you, AC. I think your voice would give Ray's voice a run for her money in a completely different way. Yeah, different ways.

Absolutely. What's that one about? So I had a crush on my friend Marcus when I was 17. Oh, straight out with the name yeah marcus knows marcus is very aware every show i do this um and and he didn't have a crush on me back but we became best friends and i think when you're like 17 18 it's embarrassing to get rejected to some degree um but i was like you know what no i love him as my friend and he loves me as a friend and i wrote a song basically being like marcus i I hope that I'll never restay.

And that we'll be friends for a very, very long time. And it's just about love and openly, you know, expressing your love for other people. Because sometimes I feel like people don't do it enough. That's beautiful. And the line about the grey hair. Yeah. Beautiful. When our hairs are turning grey.

So it's a privilege to be able to grow and get grey hair. It is. So I'm like, to be able to do that and think about life and everything you've done is such a beautiful thought for the future. It really is. I mean, the album, What a Devastating Turn of Events. There's a lot of songs that deal with trauma, your cousin's death at 25 in Zimbabwe. Tell me about that, why you wanted to write about it. I think, so being the only one born in the UK, my whole family were raised in Zimbabwe. So there's a bunch of cousins from my dad's side, which are in Zimbabwe, who my siblings grew up with.

And I remember being called and told about what had happened. And it's like when I go back to Zim, it's always exciting to meet all of the cousins that I've heard about, but some of them I've not met. And when I heard her story, I was kind of like, how has this happened? Because we don't have anything. We've never had anything like that in our family, I guess, before. And people were trying to figure out what was going on. And I think it started becoming more about the politics around what happened versus her actual story which I think is the most important thing so I wanted to highlight a song about her because I feel like I learned about

her backwards it's like her I found out about her at the end and then learned all the things before and I related to a lot of the stuff she'd gone through and I think being raised in the UK has given me something where the stuff that she would feel to me I was like that is not a big deal this is something that you can go through and you have help with but then you realize she lives somewhere where that is not the case and it's sad how how it ended up turning out and it's because she was she became pregnant yeah it's like before wedlock and it was and there's like a whole religious aspect around it and and yeah I don't. It was just when I would hear what happened to her and relationships, I think in the UK you can kind of overcome relationships in many ways.

But I think especially in a very traditional way of being, which I feel like Zimbabwe, not all of Zimbabwe, but the world she lived in was like, it's like if you don't go down the really traditional route she would have been looked down on anyways and I think that level of shame really made her feel like she had no other option well you've given her a voice on this album which is really really important I want to talk about the fact that you said you were the only child born in this country your parents were child soldiers yeah I wrote that and then my mum messaged me like, oh, I didn't realise I was a child soldier.

I was like, oh, you were 13. So, yeah, you were. Yes. I just I mean, that's so serious, isn't it? On the other hand, you know, the way you talk about the fact how your mum still when you were growing up, she kind of brought a lot about how she had to conduct herself in Zimbabwe to your childhood, didn't she? That nervousness around looking over your shoulder and checking for IEDs, that never left her, did it? I think there's a degree of trauma which I didn't realise she had

and sometimes I don't think she will ever realise she's had at points. But it's almost the fear of dying all the time, which is, I think, being in the UK, it's something where when I was going to a primary school in Croydon the stuff she would teach me I was like these aren't things which I really need to walk five minutes to school in a very safe neighborhood but my mum would teach me almost like survival skills which are only things you learn from being a soldier and it all made me so scared like growing up I was always just looking over my shoulder like

someone's going to do something and everything is scary. And now I've realised that is a result of her being super protective because from very young, she's always had to shield from, I guess, death and trying to always fight for her own life, including my dad as well. There is so much to discuss. I wish we could have you in the studio for so much longer. But I want to ask you about, you know, you're reframing, creating your own sound. And we've mentioned the indie music. Another thing you're doing is kind of reframing the St. George's flag, the flag of St. George as well. It's on the front of your album. Why is that important to do? in which I feel more so now because I'm currently on tour and I'm on my last day of tour today and I've met so many POC and black people who are teenagers mid-20s who say that flag really resonates with them and it's interesting because the UK is our home but I think when you aren't white you don't walk past that flag with a sense of fear because it's not scary but I think when you're black in POC there's a

degree of sometimes feeling quite uncomfortable walking past that flag because you don't know even if the people in the house are lovely you you just have a sense of unease which makes you feel maybe frightened to some degree and I kind of questioned why do I feel like that if I feel like England is my home and the UK is my home. And I kind of wanted to go through the emotions of why those things occur in my mind. But once I went through my whole album process and realised the UK is my home and I just have to ignore the ignorance

around the people who do put a bad name to the flag, then I'm just going to celebrate that this is my home and this is my country and this is who I am. And I'm surrounded by so much love. And I think there's a community there of POC and black people and white people in my fan base where we all feel so included and safe and that's my priority. So yeah, I think it was super important to have those flags there

and I think people questioning why I'm in front of those flags is what I want people to question why that's the case, even though I am just as English when you hear the music. Fantastic. And have you visited Stormzy's new community centre in Croydon? I haven't. I've been seeing bits about that in his football club and stuff. And I'm like, oh, I'm going to have to pop down and have a little visit.

Yeah. Well, you know, there's music rooms. There's all kinds. Listen, it's been a joy to have you here. Thank you so much. And AC as well. All the way from Nashville. The Queen.

The Queen on guitar. He's made London her home. Brilliant to have you both thank you so much and AC as well all the way from Nashville the queen the queen on guitar who's made London her home brilliant to have you both in the studio and Rachel Chinariri's album debut album what a devastating turn of events is out now lovely to meet you lovely to meet you thank you so much for coming in uh you are listening to Woman's Hour we're going to move now to talk about football in Spain specifically where the former head of the Spanish Football Federation, Luis Rubiales, will stand trial for sexual assault over his behaviour in the Women's World Cup game against England last summer. Now, you may remember he gave an unsolicited kiss to player Jenny Hermoso, which was caught on camera and broadcast to billions worldwide, provoking fierce backlash and national debate over sexism in Spain. And it ultimately led to his resignation. Now, Miss Hermoso and a teammate said the kiss was unwanted and demeaning.

Rubiales was forced to resign, but denied any wrongdoing, saying the kiss was consensual and he was the victim of a social assassination. Delighted to say Molly McKelvie is a Spain-based freelance sports journalist who's been following the story and joins me now. Welcome Molly. Thanks for having me. So let's talk about how this whole situation has moved to the legal proceedings announced in the last 24 hours. Yeah, so it was back in January that a High Court judge concluded that there was enough evidence to warrant a trial. And yeah, in the last day, we've seen that the trial has been confirmed. We still don't have a date for the trial.

But Louis Rubialis, like you say, will be facing trial over accusations of sexual assault and coercion. And three other people, including the former head coach of the women's national team, Jorge Vilda, will also be facing trial over allegations of coercion. Those allegations relate to allegations that Jenny Homo was kind of trying. There was pressure put on jenny homoso to say that the kiss was consensual and so yeah a big development in this story and um something that has been maybe expected for for a little while now because of the high court judges um conclusions in january so it is significant um clearly how has the has the Spanish football you know federation responded to the news? I think it's interesting that at the beginning of this story back in back last summer

there was so much noise around it and in the nine months since it's kind of quietened down there's not been a lot of reaction in the Spanish press, for example. I mean, I was having a browse of a lot of their webpages this morning, and it's all around kind of Real Madrid's action last night in the Champions League and not a lot about this story. Rui Alisson has still been given a platform in the last few months to kind of talk about why he says these allegations are false. And he appeared just last month on Spanish television talking about this in an interview. So the reaction has kind of died down in the months since this happened.

But we still see that the fact that Ruby Alice is going to go to trial, like this is going to be a huge story once that trial begins. Like I say, we don't have a date for it, but the fact that it implicates him as well as a number of a couple of people who are still employed by the federation is really significant. Yeah, I remember the time after the tournament, he had an awful lot of support. I remember him being on stage at a football event

and in front of him was the Spain team's national coach Jorge Vilda, Albert Luque. All of these people in the audience applauding him. So that's clearly changed since his high court judgment because they will be in the dock alongside him. But what of public opinion? Has that shifted on the behaviour that's alleged? I think the public opinion is a tricky one. I've spoken to people who fully kind of back Hermoso, Jenny Hermoso and her kind of her part in this and back her viewpoint and also say that he should definitely go to trial.

He should be kind of tried with the full force of the law because of the way, because of his actions and also because of the impact of his actions. He did it on a world stage it started a whole global conversation around sexism in Spain and he should kind of face the consequences of that then equally I have anecdotally spoken to other people just within Spanish society who think that this has maybe gone too far and they think that it's kind of been blown out of proportion um I think the fact that Rubiales hasn't shown a lot of remorse is important here.

He's been kind of putting out, doing interviews in the Spanish press, like I said, and really pushing his kind of narrative in this. Jenny Hermoso doesn't play in Spain, so she's kind of not been in the public eye as much in the last few months. I think that there were hopes that this would kind of force this huge change in Spanish football, Spanish society when it comes to sexism, but in recent weeks we've seen

Aitana Bonmati, who's one of Hermoso's Spanish teammates, and she plays for Barcelona, she's Belong to All winner, and she spoke in recent weeks to the BBC about how things haven't changed in women's football domestically, how conditions still aren't good enough and how recognition for what they do and what they did as players at the World Cup hasn't been as big as what we saw for example with the Lionesses in

the UK. So I think it will be interesting how things pan out when this does go to trial. I'm sure there'll be so much attention on it. But I don't think what happened and what happened with Rubialis has actually changed things for the better as much as people maybe hoped within football. And have more allies in the men's game come out? I mean, initially at the time, there didn't seem to be a very quick response of support from, for example, the men's national squad in Spain. But individual players sort of gradually came out of the woodwork. What's the level of support for what the women are going through from the men's game? Like you say, there were a couple of players who did come out in support for the women um and there were some teams who who um took on the the message that the of the women's kind of

movement that the the messaging which was which means kind of it's done this is over we need to kind of improve and and and move forward and get rid of this sexism within our game. I think with women's sport, we've seen throughout women's sport, I think it's quite rare to get resounding support from the men's side of things, unfortunately. And I think this case, we saw a couple of players, but maybe not the most high-profile players, come out in support of the women's team, which is a shame because they're World Cup winners.

They're the best players in the world. Even domestically, Barcelona remains the best team in Europe and the world. And there's still maybe not enough recognition for the issues that they've had to deal with over the last few years, beyond what Rubialis did, also the conditions that they've had to deal with over the last few years beyond what Ruby Alice did, also the conditions that they've had to fight for. And yeah, it would be great to see more support given to them, that's for sure. Does it make it all the more remarkable, though, that this case, given everything you've said about society in Spain,

that this case is actually going to trial? Yeah, I guess it does. But also, if this wasn't to go to trial, then what could go to trial? Because he literally kissed her on an international stage the world was watching. And if you can't take a man who's done that to trial, then I'm not sure that you can take to trial.

It would have been kind of a bit of a farce if you couldn't take him to trial for it when Jenny Hamilso has said explicitly and everyone saw the tape that it was not a consensual kiss so um yeah molly thank you so much for the update that is molly mccalvey a spain-based freelance sports journalist who's been following that story for us you are listening to woman's hour now let's talk about money it's often a topic many of us don't feel comfortable talking about

be it in a romantic relationship or with our parents or even with our friends. But it's a topic that my next guest says is vitally important when it comes to our relationships. And it's often at the crux of many of our issues in relationships. Vicky Raynell describes herself as a financial psychotherapist and she provides financial therapy to her clients. Her new book is called Money on Your Mind, The Psychology Behind Your Financial Habits. It is out today. You might be wondering what financial therapy entails and if there are any tips she can give us. She does have tips and she joins us in the studio. Hello Vicky. Hello, thank you for having me. Great to have you in the studio. Welcome to Woman's Hour. What do you hope people will take from this book? Why did you think it

was necessary to write it? I wanted to write a book that helped people feel calmer and happier about their relationship with money. You know, money goes through our hands every day. We earn, we spend, but many of us don't quite understand what factors drive our behavior with money and how we feel about it. You see, sometimes we know what we should be doing with money, but we don't make what we feel are the right choices. And sometimes that's because there is complex emotional factors driving them. Yes. So we often kind of categorize ourselves and these words fall out of my mouth regularly. You're either good with money or you're bad with money. And that's a very kind of surface analysis, isn't it? You're saying there's so much more going on

underneath the surface. Absolutely. And it's valuable to get into that detail. You see, once you start pulling that thread and begin to analyze your relationship with money, you actually find out a lot about yourself. For example, you might find out that your overspending is all about self-soothing, and it's because you're not good at managing your feelings. And maybe you can dig into that and say, what feelings is it that I struggle with? And how else could I cope with them that isn't so destructive to my finances? We'll get into that in a second. But you, you grew up in a family where there were a lot of issues surrounding money. Would you tell us a little bit about that?

Yes. So my relationship with money is probably as complex as anybody else's, influenced by my past experiences. So there were difficulties growing up that I had to deal with. And one of the things that I found most beneficial was to talk about them in my personal therapy. And I learned so much about myself through that journey that I wanted to give that experience to other people. And that's why I wrote this book. I wanted to help people see that sometimes what happens to you related to money can have an emotional impact.

But most importantly, there's experiences that we have that are not money related, that have an impact on our relationship with money. And that's what makes this book maybe a bit different from other books. Absolutely. So let's talk about, for example, people who spend a lot of money, who overspend, who might be listening to this and constantly going out and buying stuff and filling up their lives with things. What's going on there? It could be a whole host of reasons. You see, some people overspend, let's say, because of a desire to fit in. And maybe that desire was rooted in experiences in school. Maybe they were the only foreign kid in school or the only one that can afford the school trip. And that left them with a longing in life to belong and to fit in. And now they go out trying to get the right outfit so everybody will like them. And then there's people that overspend because they want to soothe feelings of loneliness. You know, maybe they're scrolling in the evenings when they're feeling a bit lonely and that's how they cope with a feeling. Or it could be something as different as a fear of abandonment. If you've been left maybe by a parent through an illness or any divorce when you were a child, that might leave you with a sense that people are not

reliable. And you might buy things, sometimes expensive things, because they stay. You hold on to them because things stay. So you see, it's so broad and so individual and unique to each one of us so to understand why you've got this kind of um financial looseness you have to kind of get to the the symptom the cause of well that's the symptom you need to get to the cause of it you also write about an example of a man who was controlling in his first marriage when it came to money but not in his second. Now, many of us would think that being controlling with money is a trait that someone has, not dependent on a specific relationship. So how can that change?

Well, you see, like with anything, it could be a pervasive aspect of our personality, or it could be situational. It could be that in the case of this man, he was controlling with one wife because that was his way of expressing his anger, his anger that she wasn't giving enough to him emotionally, she wasn't giving enough to the marriage. And so his way of coping with those feelings of reacting to that was to withhold from her. And that's what the control was about. So you know, we can't just make a blanket statement that somebody is controlling overall. Sometimes people evoke a certain dynamic when we relate to them. And that's what was going on. Control over money. I mean, this is a woman's financial abuse

is, of course, something many women face as part of domestic abuse. Money can then often be the barrier for women getting out of that situation so what ways can financial well-being perhaps help them because that's that's the main controller for a lot of women who get stuck it is a reality that it's um it's a very tricky situation to get out of and and sometimes it's the awareness and I think money on your mind is all about being more aware of the dynamics that you're in with other people when it comes to money. And so even recognizing that you're in a controlling relationship sometimes is a barrier, because the dynamic that gets it up is that the abuser blames the victim a lot for what is going on and the situation they're in. And so they start taking on a lot of that blame. So even just acknowledging, recognizing that they are in a controlling dynamic is the first step. And of course, then it comes to finding trusted people that can help them get out of the situation or calling the

appropriate helplines. You write about money secrets in the book. And, you know, it's financial infidelity, I guess. That's another word for it, another phrase for it. What are you talking about there? A lot of people keep financial secrets. But I think what's interesting is that we all have a different perception of where the line is between privacy and secrecy. And I think that's where it generates a disconnect and often conflict in couples where, you know, I might not feel that I need to disclose every bit of my spending to you, but maybe you feel differently. And I think it's something worth bringing up when you're starting a relationship with somebody or when it's getting serious.

You know, where do we draw that line? If we're going to be sharing a financial life, what is it that we expect the other to tell us? And what is it that we don't expect them to tell us? How would you, people listening to this and they think, you know, I know I don't have a very kind of open way of discussing money issues within my relationship. And I'd really love to get to that point. And it could be for a variety of reasons, but people kind of they could be worried about it, or they haven't been allowed in. It goes back to the controlling thing. What advice would you give about starting that conversation in a relationship? Well, I would say always be mindful that the other person could be feeling very anxious and have feelings like shame and have a difficulty to talk about it.

So be respectful of that and approach it with caution at the right time, in the right setting. So, you know, don't blurt it out at a dinner with a whole family. Whatever it is that you have to say, say it in the right context, but also use the right tone. You see, we can express difficult feelings like anger in a calm way. We don't need to be shouting. And when we're trying to give feedback to a partner about something they did with money that we didn't like, it is important to call what I use, to use what I call I statements, which is that we start with how I feel about something in response to something you did.

So for example, you know, I feel upset when you spend 200 pounds at the pub with your friends rather than maybe making accusatory statements like you're irresponsible and things like that because that will put the other person on the defensive. So remember that what you're trying to do is understand the other person and try to come to a compromise about money rather than trying to win an argument with them. And so kind of creating that setting of understanding. And finally, salary negotiations. Many women, not just women, of course, many women struggle with being able to ask for more money in a pay review. What kind of mindset can you advise people to go into those meetings with?

Why is there so much embarrassment and shame about just asking for what you think your worth is? Again, I think it's so helpful to try and get to the bottom of what it is that is making this so difficult for you. You know, is it that the boss is reminding you from somebody who used to be very patronising with you in the past,

and that's what's making you nervous? Or is it that you grew up in a family that prided itself on modesty and where greed was seen as a bad thing, and so you have this little voice in your head saying, you know, you should just be happy with what you have. And so there's that inner conflict happening as you walk into that room. Or is it that a part of you isn't feeling deserving of it and so you really need to have a conversation with yourself about actually i do deserve this pay

rise and yeah so yeah getting to the bottom of it give yourself a good talking to essentially and peel away those layers vicky it's been lovely having you in the studio thank you so much for joining us uh vicky reynold the financial psychotherapist and her book money on your mind is out now lovely to to meet you. Thank you so much for coming in. Just to say before we say goodbye, earlier in the programme, actor and disability rights campaigner Liz Carr talked about her

concerns about, regarding the government's proposed reform of the disability benefit system and her worries that it would negatively affect the resources going to disabled people. However, when the modernising support green paper was published last week, the government said it will explore how our welfare system could be redesigned to ensure people with disabilities and long-term health conditions

get the support they need to achieve the best outcomes with an approach that focuses support on those with the greatest needs and extra costs. So government statement on that. Thank you so much to all my guests today. It's been an absolute delight. We will talk to you tomorrow at 10 o'clock. That's Woman's Hour. That's all from today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Dr Michael Moseley. And in my BBC Radio 4 podcast, Just One Thing, I'm investigating some quick, simple and surprising ways to improve your health and life. So which will you try? Maybe playing a musical instrument to boost your brain power or a spoonful of olive oil to help your heart. How about doing some volunteering to improve your immune system? So to benefit your brain and body in ways you might not expect, here's just one thing you can do right now. Subscribe to the podcast on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories BBC Sounds. more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

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