Woman's Hour - Liz Truss's first day as PM, breaking away from Judaism, Mursal Hedayat

Episode Date: September 7, 2022

We discuss the latest on Liz Truss’ first full day as the new Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. Emma Barnett is joined by Baroness Gabby Bertin who worked with David Cameron for a decade while he was leader and Camilla Tominey, Associate Editor at the Daily Telegraph. What is it like to break away from a strict religious community? Emily grew up in the Hasidic Jewish community, known for its religious conservatism and social seclusion, but left with her children following a difficult divorce. She tells her story to Emma.For any woman over fifty who has ever asked ‘What now?’ ‘Who do I want to be?’ comes a book by Sharon Blackie, a psychologist and writer, best known for her ecofeminist book, If Women Rose Rooted. She joins Emma to talk about her new book, Hagitude.We speak to Mursal Hedayat, a businesswoman who came to the UK as a refugee at the age of 4 and is now being recognised for her entrepreneurial success with her social enterprise that helps people become language coaches. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. The country is now being run by not one, but two women. Liz Truss as Prime Minister and her great pal and political colleague, Theresa Coffey, as Deputy Prime Minister, also the new Health Secretary. As the fourth since last year of June, we have had four Health Secretaries and also looking at the number of Prime Ministers shortly and what they're going to be offering to us will come to

my guests. But Therese Coffey spoke to my colleagues on the Today programme earlier today, and this is what she had to say. We know this is a challenge. What I've seen from the prime minister is actually how excited and focused she is to deliver. And that's why I've supported Liz for many reasons, not just because she's my friend. Far from it. It's because I think she's the person who can get on, get the grip and make sure that we deliver for the people of this country. Well, some have talked about an old girls' club replacing the old boys' club. Others care little for the personnel or for the fact that for the first time, none of the highest offices of state are held by a white man.

The hunger instead is to know what the Prime Minister will do with her new power. Prime Minister Truss has met her new cabinet this morning, and dominating the conversation like Covid and Brexit before it is one topic, energy prices. Tomorrow, we will have more of an idea of what her plan is in this regard. But first at 12 today, she'll be at the dispatch box in the House of Commons for her first Prime Minister's questions across from Sakhir Starmer, leader of the Labour Party. Where are you at this morning? Excitement in your house about a new Prime Minister, a new chapter, benefit of the doubt being given? You could have, of course, voted for her if you're a member of the Conservative Party or would have

done if you were given the chance. Or do you feel more along the lines of the Daily Mirror newspaper headline writers this morning? After 12 years of Conservative rule, beleaguered and impatient for Liz Truss to fix the Britain, her party and the three previous Conservative Prime Ministers, as they put it, broke. Well, you can text me here at the programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged to your standard message rate on social media, at BBC Women's Hour. Email me through the Women's Hour

website. Or go on, try sending me a voice note on WhatsApp or a message through WhatsApp on 03700 100 444. You may wish to use WiFi because data charges can apply. Also on today's programme, we'll be hearing how it is to leave a strict religious community in this country

and survive life on the outside. One woman tells all very bravely too. The untold stories of haggitude, hags with attitude. A psychologist and author on how to become an elder, not elderly, and the female entrepreneur who came to this country as a refugee from Afghanistan as a child, who just can't seem to stop winning awards. All that to come. But first, a new prime minister, the third female prime minister of the United Kingdom, is installed in Britain's most famous London cul-de-sac. Liz Truss, of course, the former Foreign Secretary and Women and Equalities Minister, today has her first full day in Number 10. We asked to speak to the new Prime Minister this morning, but as I mentioned, it is a busy day. Last time I spoke to Liz Truss, it was actually after the release of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe from imprisonment in Iran. And during that exchange on this programme, I asked her this. Perhaps I could ask

you to commit, with time when it isn't as frantic, to come and do a phone-in here with the listeners of Woman's Hour on what women would like, because they do have a lot of questions for you that we aren't able to get through today. I'd be delighted to do that, Emma. Thank you very much. I'll take that as a yes when your diary is freer. The invite is still open. We would love for her to come, especially now she's

Prime Minister. But of course, we're also waiting to hear who will be the new Women and Equalities Minister. Some of those junior positions not yet appointed, or maybe they have been. As I'm talking, Camilla Tominey, a woman in the know, Associate Editor at The Daily Telegraph. Have we missed a lot in the last five minutes? Things are moving. I'm just checking my phone here, Emma, to see if there's any more ministerial appointments that I can't see. As you know, though, the Wi-Fi is notoriously bad in the Millbank BBC studio. So I haven't got anything through yet. That's our Westminster bit, if people don't know Millbank. How's she doing so far?

Are you feeling inspired at the Daily Telegraph? Are you all pumped up? Well, we've done quite a pumped up front page. And actually, I think it was a pretty solid performance yesterday. It wasn't going to start winning any awards for oratory. But then maybe people are actually quite welcoming of somebody who's a complete break from Boris Johnson. We had him being quite boosterish in the morning and almost pretending like Britain didn't have any problems. And then Liz Truss emerging in the afternoon, basically setting out an agenda to deal with what is the biggest and most

sort of troublesome in tray that a prime minister has seen since the 1970s. So maybe it's not the time for sort of joking and clowning around and a degree of seriousness is needed. She does make a lot of, in fact, I think we put together a bit of a montage of her saying this, she gets the job done. That seems to be what she, and then we heard her friend Therese Coffey this morning, saying very similarly. Yes, and she's all about delivery, right? So some comparisons have been made to Deliveroo. And obviously she's already a hate figure among the Twitterati,

but that was always going to be the case. The interesting thing about Truss, I think, is she cares less what people think of her than Boris Johnson ever did. She's not necessarily a pleaser. I think the idea is for her maybe not to be liked by swathes of the country, but like Thatcher to at least be respected for having an ideological vision and also a clarity of purpose when it comes to policymaking. I mean, this idea of expediting what we think is going to be a cap on energy bills at £2,500,

probably announcing that tomorrow rather than next week, shows that she understands that there's urgency needed, not least because we're two years out from another general election. And let's face it, the Tories are behind in the polls. Is it true that she's good at delivery? I mean, I'm thinking back, she's had a lot of roles in short succession, especially if you look at international trade, which interestingly has gone to Kemi Badenoch, the other woman who was doing extremely well in that race and was potentially going to go to the final two at one point. There was and has been criticism that much of what she talked about and posted many photos of her doing on Instagram and travelling the

world, many of them were rollover deals. There were deals that were already in place and the achievement was not much to boast about. Well, I think she'd argue the opposite. She would. I've had that argument with her. But I'm asking politically, is her record as good as she's saying, I get the job done? When you look across, how was she received by those in the legal field when she was Lord Chancellor? Well, I think her argument will be that she is one of the most experienced politicians in top senior ranks today. And therefore she has got that pedigree. To be fair, she often talks about this idea that the levers of power and government just don't operate quickly enough, that everything takes an eternity to get

done. So I, and he also, there was a degree wasn't there, I think, of indecision. I remember one cabinet minister talking about meetings with Boris Johnson, where he displayed something called a sort of strange silence, where he'd go around the room, ask people for their opinion, and then everyone would go, right, what's going to be decided? And nothing ever was. I can't see trust operating in that way. Obviously, we've seen this image of cabinet meeting for the first time this morning. The idea about her surrounded by loyalists perhaps seems a bit continuity. That was the criticism of Johnson that he had too many yes men and women there. But then I also asked myself the question, who would you be surrounding yourself with, your enemies? No, of course. And that's what you do. You have your allies.

It's just whether they're people who answer back to you. That's always the concern. And don't just, well, if there are decisions being made, as you're saying, perhaps there weren't before in quite the way people were hoping, will they challenge them enough? And we have mentioned Therese Coffey. The idea, you've written about this, you've looked into their bond, the idea of them being political soulmates. What does that mean? Well, I think that they are very firm friends and that they're soulmates in the sense that they both started campaigning together as conservatives after they were at university. They were both at Oxford, but at different years apart. They are yin and yang in the sense that Therese is a details woman. She's got a chemistry PhD. She is forensic. Apparently,

she rips apart government briefs and put them back together again. And she's a massive sort of social convener within the party. She knows different factions and brings them together. In a way, that is the opposite of trust. Somebody said, oh, the only person in team trust is Liz Truss, and that she isn't that kind of social butterfly. And she's also much more on the right of the party, whereas Theresa's on the left. But then maybe that is a nice balancing act. There's been some unfavourable coverage today of Theresa. Is she the right person to be health secretary because she's overweight and she's once had a cigar and, oh my has a glass of wine on occasion but actually others have pointed to her having a very good bedside manner and because of her own upbringing in background

I think she once admitted that she was on benefits and she had a terrible health scare when she got meningitis that she does actually understand the pressures facing the NHS from a first-hand perspective you know sometimes you get this sense of politicians being one step removed certainly coffee isn't that person. Well it's also hard to keep track sometimes with our number of health secretaries because there've been quite a few of of late and another woman to go and a woman to come in if I and I'm not just focusing on being women it's because of the importance of the role is the Home Secretary yes and you know with some of the the briefings albeit anonymously today it's uh it's pretty striking what has been said by those working within the Home Office for Priti Patel for the last few years yeah anyone

would be better is one of those uh particular remarks very much inviting Priti Patel to come back onto Woman's Hour would be very interesting uh not least to hear what she thinks of her own record especially around uh women and girls and some of those safety issues that she worked on fighting Priti Patel to come back onto Woman's Hour. It would be very interesting, not least, to hear what she thinks of her own record, especially around women and girls and some of those safety issues that she worked on with the police. I'll get to that with my next guest in just a moment. But Suella Braverman, is that a departure? Is that a big change? Not necessarily. I mean, actually, on paper, they're very similar women in their ideology. They're both on the right of the party. They're both staunch Brexiteers. They've both more than hinted about sort of lefty human rights lawyers thwarting attempts to deport

illegal migrants or indeed actual criminals from this country. They're both pretty strident. Breverman perhaps has got more of a reputation for perhaps being slightly less prickly. Can I put it like that, Emma? But then Priti Patel will always say, oh, well, you know, because I was a woman, I was accused of being a bully and this, that and the other. But actually, if I was a man, I'd been described as robust. That's also referring to the report that came out about her, which Boris Johnson decided not to follow and she stayed in the position. I mean, I don't think Braverman is of the same sort of temperament in that regard. But I think as a former lawyer and as somebody who wants to shake up the system,

I mean, that was her whole platform upon which she stood for leadership, right? That she was somebody who was going to get tough on some of the Achilles heels that the Home Office faces. Having said that, it's a gargantuan task because the general consensus is, whoever the Secretary of State is, that the Home Office is a bit of a basket case. And it's like far too big a department and should probably be hived off into three different departments. Although the skill of your political ability at times will be tested by that particular brief. Of course, another woman lasted there a long time indeed, Theresa May, again, with I'm sure people having differing views of how she did. But she did certainly make it her own for the time that she was there. And just on with the Home Office in

mind, the Rwanda policy, we mentioned actually only the other day, because I was talking to somebody who works on a rescue boat in the Mediterranean, not in the Channel, I'll just distinguish if people have caught up with that episode. But that is in the High Court at the moment. And that is meant to be carrying on that particular policy. Is that right? Yes, apparently so. And equally, we've heard from Suella Braverman this morning that she's going to be trying to put more migrants in detention centres as opposed to hotels. I mean, it probably does help with regard to the legal case that she is a former lawyer. And I suppose, you know, it's not a popular mantle to take on as far as the Westminster bubble is concerned or Twitter. But actually, if you go up to some northern towns, I accompanied Priti Patel a few weeks ago because I did her kind of final interview.

It now turns out to be. And lots of people were sort of packet patting her on the back for the migrant policy. So it sort of depends on who you speak to. But Raveman's going to, again, like Liz Truss, have to have the sort of hide of a rhino because she's going to get absolutely pilloried for it among the sort of Twitterati and the left, isn't she? But what other solutions have Labour come up with, I suppose, is that's going to be the theme, by the way, of PMQs. I'm sure we're going to have on one side Keir Starmer saying, you've had 12 years. Why are you trying to do, you know, why are you trying to repair

the damage you've caused? And then I bet the trust offering in return is, well, what ideas have you got? You know, we've had an absolute policy vacuum from you lot. You haven't got any solutions to these problems and we need immediate help for the people of Britain.

It is hard that line though, isn't it? The other way on from yesterday, talking about fixing Britain when you have sat around that cabinet table since David Cameron to cast your mind back, which leads me to my next guest, Camilla Tomlin. I'll let you get on with finding out the very latest. Associate Editor

at the Daily Telegraph, thank you for your time and insight. Baroness Gabby Burton, one of the former Prime Minister David Cameron's closest advisors for more than a decade, now a Conservative Peer and Vice Chair of the All-Part parliamentary group for domestic violence. Good morning. Welcome to the programme. Morning, Emma.

What's it like walking into number 10 for the first time and how do you get started? Oh, well, I mean, as someone who works in politics... That's a good sound, the sigh. Carry on. The sigh. As someone who works in politics, it's your ultimate goal isn't it to get into number 10 to walk through that door um and it's your one shot you uh you don't have many other chances and you want to make it right you have to allow yourself a bit of excitement i mean you've worked very hard to get to that place and you can allow yourself about an hour of that excitement and then you have to get on with the job i mean mean, I remember that combination of feeling elated, but also that huge sense of duty because,

and arguably it was a, this is a much, much more challenging time that Liz Truss is facing even than us. And I didn't actually sleep very well for a long time when I started my job in number 10, because it was all consuming, overwhelming, and frankly, as it should be. You have to take it very, very seriously. How long have you got, do you think? I mean, we make something of 100 days, don't we, around political leadership, the first 100 days. But when you're not actually elected by the public and you're coming in in this way, exactly like Theresa May did, it's a different thing. And also, as you say, it's a different time. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that what struck me is that that is not lost on any of the people coming in.

You know, that sense of urgency, particularly with this moment, because probably she's only got, well, you know, certainly 18 months before an election potentially, and you have got to hit the ground running. And not least because we've had this, in my view, a terrible error in this pause in government for the last six weeks. So there was absolutely no... It's been extraordinary, hasn't it? No time could be lost. Yes, and I think it was a mistake.

It was a mistake, not least for the running of government and good order, but it was also a mistake for the Conservative Party. So there's a lot of repair to be done there. You backed Rishi Sunak. Is Liz Truss any good? Well, I did back Rishi Sunak, but only in a tweet. I didn't work on his campaign. No, no, no, but you expressed enough of a support for him that you put it there publicly.

Yeah, when there were lots of other candidates. But no, I'm very supportive of Liz Truss. I think, actually, I thought Camilla's analysis just then was very good. You know, you get that clear sense. Yeah, she's not the best orator. She's not absolutely brilliant at presenting, you know, speeches. She's not going to have us in stitches the whole time. But you get that impression that she knows what she wants to do. Now, whether you like what she wants to do, that's a different matter. But there's at least a sort of relief and a stability around what this woman sort of knows what she wants to do. Now, whether you like what she wants to do, that's a different matter. But there's at least a sort of relief and a stability around what this woman sort of knows what she wants to do. And you have that impression that she knows how she wants to get there.

So I feel very, very sure about that. And how long do you reckon she's got to get on top of the energy crisis? Even if she makes an announcement tomorrow, the reality is already biting. She has not got long at all. Are we talking days? Yeah, well, weeks, months. You can tell that businesses are starting to run reduced hours. I know that childcare costs are rocketing. Some nurseries are closing. This is really serious. People are having to hand their pets over. There is absolutely no, you cannot go fast enough in my view on this issue. We will see what is announced. We'll see her perform very shortly or hear her if you choose

to listen to it on the radio. Your work, some of it certainly, is focused on violence against women and girls. I mentioned Priti Patel. We now have a new Home Secretary. What's difficult here, you know, even if you don't, some people saying they're excited about the new Prime Minister, I'll read out some of our listeners views, some saying the opposite, is that it's hard to come in and talk about fixing Britain when you have been around the table, making the decisions that you are now saying have been part of breaking Britain. If you look at the reality of whether women and girls' lives have improved and if women and girls are actually safer in this country over, let's say, the last few years when Priti Patel has been in charge,

as I say, we'd like to have her on, can you honestly say it's got any better under the Conservatives? Well, I mean, certainly not in terms of rape statistics. No, it hasn't. But I think that what I would say is that there have been some very good policies that have been implemented over the past six months. And obviously, we cannot take away from Theresa May's momentum around the Domestic Abuse Act. The issue with these sorts of societal problems is they don't change overnight.

It takes a long, long time. And you need to put in long-term funding, by the way. I think the short-term approach to these issues is wrong. And we have to try and persuade the Treasury that actually you can't do sort of three-year cycles. You have to do much longer cycles when it comes to trying to fund domestic abuse services, for example. But one key change that I must sort of credit Priti Patel with is that she did elevate violence against women and girls and domestic abuse to become a strategic policing requirement. And what that means, it's now on the same footing as terrorism, which I think was long, long overdue. Twelve years overdue, some would say. Well, longer than that, frankly. Well, no, but during the Conservative time, it's striking to me, you say, only in the last six months,

you can talk about the steps forward and the meaningful change. No, well, I'm not going to sit here and deny that. I think that we did do some good things on that front, but we have got to do more. And that is why I'm so passionate about trying to persuade this government to really send that signal and not lose that momentum. It cannot be right in 2022 that women still don't feel safe walking home. And indeed, tragically, you know, they are not sometimes. And I think that, you know, if Liz Truss sends that signal that this is an issue that matters to her, then Whitehall will get energised behind it and he won't lose that opportunity.

You know, we've got a new leadership at the Met, new leadership in the power of government, and that is, I would hope, could potentially be a very important moment. Although the way that the previous Met Commissioner was removed is now also being called into question through an independent report that Priti Patel did commission. But a lot of ire being directed at the Labour London Mayor Sadiq Khan over that,

whether the first woman to lead the Met should have actually been ousted in that way. So that doesn't necessarily mean, you know, new brass, new top brass necessarily mean a good thing. It does mean, I think that you have to obviously put the policies in place, but these sorts of issues need momentum and they need proper sort of political drive. Otherwise, they do sort of they can kind of just lose speed and wither on the vine. And we cannot allow that to happen on this issue. There was also the accusation from some of the groups who work in this area. You'll be very familiar with them. Rape crisis, refuge, women's aid, the end violence against women coalition, that Priti Patel weaponized violence against women to justify new laws they felt would curtail freedom and deepen inequality. I'm sure you are familiar

with this, but you know, the idea that this was weaponized to get through the police crime and sentencing courts bill. They also said as a collective that they rejected, specifically this is the End Violence Against Women Coalition, proposals to overhaul the Human Rights Act, which was also announced as an ambition and is still something that's close to Suella Braverman's heart. So you have a situation where the experts, those who work with the women on the ground who are affected by this, have been very uncomfortable at times with what they feel

has been the weaponisation of this agenda by the Conservatives, your party. Well, look, I'm not a member of the government, so I can't defend everything that they've done. You've taken a peerage from this political party. Well, I took a peerage from David Cameron, so that's slightly different. I have been very vocal about things that I do not agree with. OK, you haven't rejected being a Conservative peer yet. No, I have not.

But anyway, but I'm proud to be a Conservative, by the way. You know, I'm not backing away from that. But there are obviously some very difficult issues that will not always please everyone. And I'm not about to wholeheartedly defend all those things because I'm not a member of this government. However, what I would say is that what we really need to do if Liz Truss is serious about reducing murder rates, as I'm sure she is, and getting the rape convictions up, we need to start thinking about sort of long-term preventative issues, you know, from stopping this kind of behaviour from happening in the first place. And she has something in front of her that she could fix quite easily is the online safety bill. Now, that is going to stay. We've been reassured. I think there was a moment where some people feared that it actually might be junked, which, you know, does happen often. And I don't think

it is, but we could beef that up. We could beef that up a lot more. It doesn't acknowledge violence against women and girls at all. It doesn't mention that in any of the duties that are going to be placed on tech firms. I think that should change. And I think that there should be a much stronger code of practice to ensure that they systematically try and take this kind of level of abuse off their platforms. Baroness Gabby Burton, final question.

Is it a more comfortable place for you this morning being a Conservative peer under Liz Truss than Boris Johnson? Yes. Thank you very much for your time. Message here from... Thank you very much. Thank you. Caroline says, who's listening in East Sussex,

good morning. I'm delighted with our new Prime Minister and her new colourblind pro-female cabinet. I have every confidence in her. Gillian Bromley, hello to you. I desperately wanted her to appoint her cabinet based on the current crises in the NHS, household budgets, in the police, etc. Hugely disappointed she's focused on gathering a cabinet based on their loyalty during her campaign and clearly with her eyes on the next election.

Another one from Georgie. I appreciate the fact that no white man holds one of the major positions in government now. However, I feel this means that almost nothing under a Conservative government, it means almost nothing if they all hold the same somewhat archaic views. Well, of course, we hope to have many of the new cabinet onto the programme and you can challenge them, Georgie,

alongside with me and we see what they actually think. Perhaps it will not be as you think, but maybe it will be. That's the point of hearing from you this morning. So mixed emotions, taking the temperature about how you feel about the new Prime Minister, the third woman to hold the post. And as we've been looking at her cabinet as well, and what she's actually going to do with this power. Let me ask you an entirely

different question, one you may not know the answer to, but my next guest can give you a very clear window into. What is it like to break away from a strict religious community here in the UK? Emily grew up in a Hasidic Jewish community. In this country, these groups are mostly based in London, Manchester and Birmingham, that's where the biggest communities are, and known for their religious conservatism and social seclusion. While they choose to be secluded from secular society, they have been thrust into the spotlight recently during, for instance, COVID lockdown, as certain large social gatherings in those communities went ahead, breaking rules. But also you may have seen, for instance, the recent Netflix drama, I should say, not new, a lot of you have seen it, Unorthodox, about a woman fleeing the Hasidic Jewish community

in New York. But what is it like here? Emily chose, as she puts it, to escape her community with her children eventually following a difficult divorce. I got the chance to speak to her just before coming on air today. And I began by asking her to give a brief description of Hasidic Judaism, a subset of Haredi Judaism, which you will hear referred to throughout the interview. I would describe it as all encompassing. It's a way of life and it would dominate every aspect of your life from the moment you wake up until you go to bed. Every occasion, every event, you know, important events in life will be influenced and governed by laws from, you know, linked to the Bible. And obviously there's books that, you know, have the sort of rules that, you know, if you're in the Haredi community, you'd be expected to follow, whether that's eating, some of the prayers before, going to the bathroom.

It's not something where religion is an addition. It's very much an integral part of how you live your life. And separate to the wider community of the country that you're living in. Yes, absolutely. The Haredi community see themselves as cut off. And on the contrary, there's an ideal of, you know, the less we interact with anybody who's not part of the community, the better. There's a sense of elitism and kind of we are the chosen ones by God.

And therefore, we only interact with people outside of the community only literally as necessary. For you growing up in this, though, there will have been joyful moments. There will have been the celebrations of life and your family, of course. So for you, this will have been normal. Yeah, absolutely. As a child growing up, you know, there's lots of, you know, big families, lots of festivals. And, you know, being a child, you don't question or think this is your normal. So no, I definitely had no questions or thoughts or, you know, challenges. I just accepted and I actually felt quite proud.

When did it start to change or when did you start to feel that perhaps what you could be or wanted to be wasn't going to be allowed within this community? I actually, in fact, wanted to have a career. It was actually with a kind of good intention in terms of, I was thinking, well, if I'm going to marry this Bible scholar, this Talmud scholar, I'd like to have a way of supporting my family. I wanted to attend a women's college, which was a religious college, but my parents were against it. I also wanted to do a degree. By no means go to university. That's completely off limits because

obviously it's men and women and mix and that would be just completely not allowed um my parents just were afraid um there was a sense of you know studying things that were you know not Jewish and the attitudes and beliefs of the secular world would have an impact on me so I felt very aggrieved about that and fought against that I think that was the first step the second biggest thing was my arranged marriage when I was 20 I was introduced to my husband at the time um over a period of 24 hours I from the first time I met him till we got engaged and then we didn't meet again till six months later to when I got married. And unfortunately then, you know, it was a very miserable marriage, really kind of intensified and really led me down a path of just questioning and really thinking critically and, you know, do I want this sort of lifestyle?

And then as I had children, I think that really started to kind of put pressure in terms of the sort of restrictions that this community were placing on myself uh both boys and girls I always was saying to him um I don't feel like I'm living my life I didn't choose any of this we're married and put together because some matchmaker found two names on a list and my parents you know liked what they heard about him but it could have been another boy on the list. And here we are, you know, we're two different people. We have nothing in common. And, you know, anytime I expressed desire to travel, you know, go to the theatre or do something

other than just cooking clean and look after children, my husband couldn't understand it. He actually felt very angry and he was like, well, I was told I'm marrying a very religious Hasidic girl and he actually felt quite betrayed. And he didn't understand why I wasn't proud of the fact that he was such a respected person in the community. Why it wasn't enough for me just to be happy being this wife and mother. We never agreed and understood each other on that level. You worked alongside the role in the home.

Yes, I always wanted to do that I always had this sense of independence that I wanted and I did pursue an education I did get a degree it was very difficult because I was juggling I had very young children but there was something inside of me that felt I couldn't limit myself and my life to just having children cleaning the house and cooking for my husband. And I believe you snuck a router into the house to start looking at the world beyond your own, to be able to see the internet and what's going on. Yes, you know, I had such a thirst for knowledge and a realisation that I'd been missing out on so much that was out there. It really opened up so much for me. And eventually, I would say, it even helped in my

escape. Talk to me about the escape. What was the decision? Because, you know, you didn't just divorce, which you can tell us about, but you also left the community. Yes. After 10 years, for me, it was a case I was just so miserable. And I just felt I couldn't do this any longer. Particularly the intimate side of my marriage. It just felt really invasive and I just, it felt traumatic and I just couldn't do it anymore. This is also, I should say, because you have to, there's a ritual to that as well, isn't there? you go to the mikvah which is a a cleansing pool at the end of your period and then there's a routine isn't there to to being uh with your husband again yes so when a woman gets her period she's considered

impure and she would have to stop having any form of physical uh intimacy or even any form of physical intimacy or even any form of touching. Like you wouldn't be able to pass your baby over or any object. So for two weeks, you're completely separate. And then once your period is finished, you have seven days of checking yourself to make sure that you're clean. So you would be checking yourself in the morning and at night to make sure that there's no blood, you're not bleeding anymore. And then on the seventh day in the evening, you would go to a ritual bath, essentially, where you would get undressed, be inspected by this female mikveh attendant,

and then dip your body, say a blessing. And once you had done that ritual, you were allowed to go home and resume, you know, having sex or whatever, you know, what normal marriage is like. For me, unfortunately, whereas had I been happy or, you know, attracted to my husband, that would have been an exciting time. But it was the opposite. I used to look forward to getting my period because I knew I would have that break because it just felt like, you know, I unfortunately just no chemistry. There was nothing between us. So after 10 years, I just decided I'm not going to do that anymore.

I didn't want to go to the mikvah. My husband just lost his temper, got really annoyed, called the rabbi. The rabbi spoke to me and said, well, you know, you would have to get divorced. Every time I raised the topic of divorce, my husband, again, he just couldn't hear of it. He felt that I was ruining his life. How could I be doing this? And it was unthinkable. You know, I had quite a few children at that point, but there was something driving inside of me that unless I did it now, you know, I could see the future. I saw I saw my life. It would never finish. It would just carry on. And more than that, I would see my children, my daughters going through a similar process, you know, being matched up and getting married at a young age. So I decided that I would go ahead with a separation, which was really,

really difficult. When my husband realized I was serious about it, I'd spoken to a lawyer. He went to his rabbis who came back threatening that I can leave the marital home, but in no means can I take the children. So I was welcome to ask him for divorce, but I would have to leave the children behind. And my own family, sadly, backed him up on that as well. Thankfully, I obviously got legal aid and my solicitor advised me of my rights. But at time it was it was very it was terrifying you did manage to escape and and eventually be with your children yes uh it took it was a two-year drawn-out court process after two years i was able to move out of the community

and uh yeah got custody of the children how did How did you cope being outside of the community, the only community that you had known? It was a new experience. It's like, you know, being an immigrant in your own country, you know. Yeah, there were so many new things. I obviously had done, you know, being on the internet and having watched films. I did get a sense of what the secular world was about. But, you know, my cultural knowledge and the gaps in my knowledge, I think it came more. I think I thought I knew more than I really did. Things like, you know, not dressing appropriately for an interview and then not getting the job as a result was like things that kind of really moments hit home. I went to a bar, one of my secular friends took me out.

I had no idea what drinks to order or, you know, even going to restaurants, different types of foods. And I just it was just all very, very new. Also very exciting there at the same time. Are your parents or your family still in your life in any way? Yeah. So sadly, we didn't talk for a period of 10 years. For me, it felt such a betrayal the fact that they supported my husband in wanting to remove custody of the children you know they felt that I was an unfit mother I for me that was like it really uh inside of me I just thought I couldn't I couldn't get over that but recently during lockdown uh things you know obviously 10 years down the line

things have you know I've settled down My children have started to grow up. Also, also for me, one of the big things was even when I'd left the community, every time my children would still see my ex-husband, there was a big sort of behind my back of people getting involved in my children's lives with the intention of trying to keep them religious and in the community. I always felt a sense of suspicion. But as my children grew older and I, you know, that kind of fear kind of left, I got in touch with my parents. And yeah, we are, which, you know, which is really nice. We are now in touch again, which is really, it's really positive. And you are also trying to help others who want to leave the community.

You set up a charity, Gesher EU. Yes. One of the big key, you know, what I felt was really difficult was the fact that there were other charities to support me for different areas, but there was nothing for people leaving the Haredi community. So as soon as I left, I founded Gesher EU, which is a charity supporting people who leave. I feel really passionate about it because for me it felt like there must be others. There are going to be others who are going to go on this journey and to ensure that they have the support that they needed. And how is life today for you? Yeah, I would say pretty good.

You know, obviously being a single parent and all the challenges that come with that. However, you know, overall, my older children are now, you know, in university and, you know, doing things that I could only dream about at the age, you know, of 18, 19, 20, you know, whether it's going on holiday to Spain or, you know, they're, you know, going out, boyfriends or whatever it is, theatres and, you know, just travelling to different places, having different experiences. All of that, you know, is really, you know, sort of seeing that sort of aspiration I had that's sort of coming, you know, to life. And I think being able to support others is also really, really satisfying. Yeah, of course. And I also just wonder about another point. I mean, this came to light a bit more during COVID, but with certain practices of certain religious communities, not necessarily following some of those lockdown rules.

This certainly was an issue in the Haredi Jewish community and was actually spoken about by the chief rabbi and by others. Is it difficult to try and talk how you have talked and then have the concern, the wider concern about stoking levels of anti-Semitism? I don't see it linked to anti-Semitism at all. I think that... It's just people have ideas, don't they, about the Jewish community that are sometimes, you know, wildly different to the reality. And then that can be a concern about speaking out to the non-Jewish world. Yes, it can be. But I think it's really important to distinguish between the Haredi community where, you know, it's ultra-Orthodox and where people's freedoms and, you know, choices are being taken, you know, early marriage or lack of education to a wider whole. The Jewish community is a huge, as I discovered in London, there's a massive wider Jewish community, which is completely removed from the idea of anti-Semitism.

This is not about that at all. It's about calling out things that are wrong and even evil, not giving young people, young men who come to us, the charity, not knowing the basic maths and English and essentially disabling them for life. Getting married at a young age, you know, essentially, you know, into an arranged marriage, which is very much, I would say it's coerced by the community. So people, again, are closed off and we get calls. People are so miserable, feel so trapped. Those are the things I think you know I I do we need to challenge those you know there's those things yeah yeah I mean it's it's it's important to make those distinctions that you've just made but a lot of people may not and

that can sometimes lead to people not talking about these things so I know you will have grappled with that which is why I wanted to ask you yes absolutely and I think it's it's it yeah it's important to be really clear about what it is that I am talking about and the distinction between what the Haredi community is doing that is not okay. And of course, if we had a member of the Haredi community here, they may also dispute your characterisation of it. But that is your experience and what's happened to you. And you've heard from others, and it sounds like quite a few others,

that they have felt similarly and also want to try and leave the community and have worked with your charity guest at eu to do so or in that process thank you very much for talking so candidly to to me and to our audience today no worries it's been a pleasure not at all and you can hear more of em's story on The Exchange. That's a programme on Radio 4 this evening at 8 o'clock. We'll catch up any time on BBC Sounds. A message here from Maris who says, My family is a religious Jewish family in Israel.

The woman talking now isn't representative. My nieces all work. They had arranged marriages, not as she described. All could say no. They're aware of the outside world. Please don't present her as all cases. I hope you don't feel we've done that we often have individual stories but it's important to hear what she did experience and another one saying amazing listening to the current interview with the former member of the orthodox community we should say heredity community just to be even

clearer as a woman who experienced similarly grim exodus from the catholic marriage i strongly empathize with her story and can add in my experience, the extreme religious community's sole aim is to subjugate women and produce slave labour for their own benefit. Again, your experience there, relaying as you see it to what you just heard. Please keep your messages coming in as always. And I'm sure there will be some about what we're next going to talk about with the writer and psychologist Sharon Blackie, who has a new book out called Haggitude. I mentioned this right at the beginning of the programme, the idea of becoming an elder, not elderly. But first, we need to understand Haggitude. Sharon, good morning.

Good morning, Emma. What is this? I believe it came to you in the night. It did. I woke up literally in the middle of the night and said Hagggitude to an empty bedroom and then fell back asleep again. And in the morning, woke up and thought that would be a great title for a book. What does it mean? Well, it's really about hags in our old myths and folklore.

And, you know, the old way of looking at the word hag isn't about ugliness or the wicked witch. The hags in our older stories have a power of their own, which really springs from their absolute authenticity, from being absolutely who they are and kind of sufficient to themselves. So hags don't define themselves in relationship to other people or in relation to what the system would like them to be. And because of that, I think hag has become a negative term. Hags have become vilified precisely because of that, because they live according to their own sense of how the world should be, rather than going along with what the system or the patriarchy tells them they ought to be. I mean, even if you don't get

on board with the word or, you know, your word of it, haggertude, your point, I suppose, is to try and help people think about, and I know you've also focused a lot on women, what they can do in that next part of their life and how they can think about it. Was there a particular story when you were researching the book of these women, of these hags, as you describe, who made you think differently? Or that made you feel differently? the old women in folklore who has always meant a huge amount to me is a woman, an old woman called the Callyach, which in Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic literally means the old woman. And she is the old woman in our ancient mythology who created and shaped the land, literally brought the land into being. And for me, she teaches us about the strength that comes in elderhood. She also is shown constantly as a guardian and protector of the natural world and of animals in particular. So many stories, she kind of prevents hunters from taking pregnant deer in season or from taking too many deer.

And in a world that is so profoundly challenged environmentally and ecologically, she is just one of those brilliant role models that I think we could all do with learning a little bit more about. And while it sounds good to not become elderly, but become an elder, how do you go about it with the world that we live in? And also, if your body's not feeling quite like it once did, you're not feeling like you once did, how do you move through that to feel good about it? I think it really comes down to how we look at menopause. And I don't think we have necessarily feeling like you once did? How do you move through that to feel good about it? I think it really comes down to how we look at menopause. And I don't think we have necessarily a particularly healthy attitude to menopause in our culture. Clearly, it's a time of intensely demanding physical symptoms. And it is very difficult as a process for many women to go

through. But I think it can also reasonably be looked at as a pause, not only in our periods and our menses, but a pause in our lives. And the way that I look at it is that during menopause, an old story, the story of the first half of our lives, when we're building, growing, is being stripped away from us. We have this kind of time between stories, which is menopause, while we're waiting for that new story to come into being, while we're waiting to grow into a new story. So what does that new story, as we move into elderhood, look like for each of us? And I believe it is a stage of our lives where we come into our own truest, most authentic self, where we don't define ourselves by relationship to others. And so going back to the old stories

where we see these immensely wonderful, wise, powerful elder women, I think can give us some clues about how the second half of our lives might look for us. How does this work day to day? Because yes, you could read the book, you could understand some of these stories that you've never known before, perhaps feel a bit better reading, you know, on a rainy afternoon. But day to day, what's it like for you? How are you doing it? How are your friends doing it? I think the power of the myths and the stories for me is that they help us to reimagine ourselves. So, you know, we're not going to read a story about the fairy godmother and suddenly put on a twinkly gown and, you know, start waving a wand and go out there looking for people to... Well, you might, but most people probably wouldn't.

But I think what stories do is they really help us to reimagine ourselves so that we see the possibility of transformation, even in, you know, what looked like the most seemingly impossible situations, which is what happens in most folk and fairy tales. So I suppose what I'm looking at here is inspiration. The stories teach us that we can have agency, that we can have the power to change and influence the world for the better. They tell us something about what the nature of an older woman's wisdom might be and how we as individuals could uniquely embody it. So the book that I have written isn't like a how-to manual day by day. It's a book that really encourages people to look at the journey through menopause, appalling as as it can be in a slightly more positive way as an opportunity as well as a challenge. There's a message from Lottie that says, I'm definitely a proud hag that's just come in.

Well, that's very fine. We need more proud hags in the world. Have you found that since you've launched this and you've talked about hagitude? People are equally appalled by it and delighted by it, you know, and I think it's because of the misunderstanding of the word hag that everybody thinks it just means an ugly old woman. And I really think it does mean these women who have a power that is entirely their own. And therefore, they seem to be very threatening to the system because anybody who stands outside a system inevitably is going to, you know, to feel very threatening to the people who are in it.

So I see it as a word that really needs to be reclaimed. This is something I think that we should be aspiring to as we grow older. The women that you're talking about, did they call themselves hags or were others calling them that? In the stories? Yes. They were classified generally as hags. So the story would go, and so a hag came riding out of the forest and did X. So it's the way that they were generally referred to.

I like the way that forests and deers are coming up quite a lot in this reference. Yeah, these hags really are kind of, they're very earthy, you know, they're not sort of twinkly sky goddesses, they're rock incarnate or they're representatives of the natural world. They're shapeshifters from animal to human form. They're very down-to-earth grounded, wonderful, wise women. Well, you've taken us somewhere new this morning. Thank you. As we've been discussing and I've been getting people's responses to the third woman to lead this country,

we've then travelled into a completely different, well, it seems, atmosphere at times with what you've been looking at with haggitude and hags. Sharon Blackie, thank you very much for your time and insights there. Now, somewhere else entirely, my next guest, someone at the age of 26 became the CEO of her own company. By the age of 30, awarded an MBE. And now she's coming to us fresh from winning a Woman's Bold Future Award, which celebrates the achievements of women in business. And this is because of her social enterprise that she set up that's

called Chatterbox that allowed refugees and allows refugees to become language teachers. Who am I talking about? I'm talking about Mursal Head-Dyat, who came over to the UK from Afghanistan as a refugee when she was four. Good morning and congratulations. Hey Emma, thank you so much. And you, I mentioned what Chatterbox did, but just tell us where the idea came from and a bit more, if you can. Definitely. I mean, I grew up watching the most amazing women I know, my mum, struggle to find work in the UK,

despite being a qualified civil engineer from Afghanistan and so for the first 10 years that we were refugees here she you know worked intermittently as a cleaner but mostly was not able to contribute at all to the British economy. Over the next the following 10 years she uncovered her language skills as this superpower that she used to get into work initially as an interpreter and then as a language teacher where she's built a successful career now. And thanks to technology and the internet and the growth of global business, languages are really booming, online language learning in particular. So at Charterbox, we've built technology that lets people who are refugees or from other backgrounds to uh monetize their language skills as language teachers online

and and for you and doing this with your your own background you say you're inspired by your mother you know why did it matter so much for you to be able to do this because of course you being if you're like the second generation may not have been subjected to the same issues um i would say i mean a really prominent memory for me was watching my mom at the job center in kentish town where i grew up and this extraordinarily you know vibrant and confident women um was was meek and and almost sorry to to an employment advisor who I think she'd shown up late to a meeting and I was meeting her up at the job center. And I was just thinking how disrespected her background and skills were relative to what they were worth to the UK economy. And that, I think that anger, really, I think a lot of entrepreneurs like me are are motivated by making a change

because of something they see is not quite working well and for me growing up it was what happened to my parents but of course today with Ukraine and and all of the various catastrophes around the world this is impacting more people today than at any other time in history yes and of course it's it's just over a year since Taliban took control again over Afghanistan. And we are seeing those who have been able to come here try to settle again. And I know that you have a take on perhaps how you never believe your home really is your home if you are a refugee and what that can do to you, not just the language barrier, but how you can fit it? Yeah, I mean, I think we live in a global world, whether some people choose to accept it or not. Most people today work in a global

team, they have global companies, friends, even young people today grow up with international friendship groups. So I think this feeling that I have of being, you know, global first isn't just for refugees. However, as a refugee or someone who's been impacted by that, you naturally feel, I guess, always with an eye to what might happen if things go wrong. And I think that in the UK there are a lot of really troubling things going on that make refugees and ethnic minorities like me feel quite uncomfortable um so yes I think it's it's a little bit about being an ethnic minority in the UK today and a little bit also about being a refugee but also being part of a generation that feels very at home

in this global environment and yes at the same time of course you came feels very at home in this global environment. And yet at the same time, of course, you came here very young and you've been able to do what you've done. Amazing achievements as well with the awards and the way that you've been recognised. So in some ways, you would be able to say that the education certainly and the other opportunities have been a success? Yeah, I mean, I say I'm an example of, I think, what Britain can do at its best. You know, I grew up under a government that provided me with an exceptional education, brilliant opportunities for internships and, you know, a relatively affordable degree at the time. And, you know, refugees and migrants are known to give back more to the economy within a generation than they take out. And I think I'm a case study of what happens when you do this right. It's no secret that

the shrinking workforce in the UK is the most urgent problem facing the UK economy. There are about 1.3 million job vacancies in the UK right now. And, you know, this could cost us 30 billion pounds a year. So the ability to take in migrants and indeed refugees who are different to migrants in that they didn't have a choice to leave home and be able to really maximise the potential of that community, it's a huge advantage to be able to do that. And companies like mine are part of the key for the future

of how to make the most of our migrant and refugee labour force. Well, we are waiting to hear a bit more about what the new prime minister will be prioritising, will be doing. I have been asking all of our listeners today how they feel about that, the third woman to run the country and with what they've heard so far. I mean, you sound like an optimistic person when you talk about the world and being a member of that global community. Do you share that optimism as someone who's had those opportunities in Britain and came to the UK when you were four?

You know, last night at the Bold Awards that offered me this prize, there was a really interesting question put to a panel of, you know, female titans of industry. And the question was, you know, what does equality look like for women? And the answer of one of the past winners, Sharma Dayan-Reed, was we'll have equality when there are just as many mediocre women as there are men currently. So I'm incredibly proud that we have a female prime minister you can um you know you can have a view on whether you think she's good at her job or not but like the more women like her and like us um break these glass ceilings and and provide role models to younger generations the better in my in my opinion. And I suppose we will see. I mean, that's the other thing to be debated, you know,

is what they actually do with it and how they use that power and all of that. I take that. I'm not putting that onto your shoulders. But from your particular point of view, obviously working with those who are refugees, with those who are trying to get settled. And how have you found that? Has that changed in recent years or not? You know, when I first started chatterbox um

over half a decade ago the climate and discourse around refugees was was very negative um i don't need to kind of highlight but maybe i should some of the appalling front page newspapers describing refugees as an infection a swarm a mass that was coming to basically attack Europe. And today, and perhaps because of the changing face of the refugee crisis, people are a lot more positive about what we can do to welcome them and to do good. And so what I've seen is a lot of companies, I mean, Chatterbox is an enterprise language learning solution. So we work with a lot of companies, a lot of HR teams, and they're all extremely busy finding jobs for this recent refugee workforce that's arrived from Ukraine. So I think that's a really positive sign. And, you know, I think I'm distinctly a practical

person and an optimist. And I think that the solutions to our current challenges aren't going to be party political or partisan. They need to be logical. They need to have, you know, cross cross party agreement. They need to make sense. Something like Chatterbox taking an idle workforce in the UK, not just refugees today, by the way, Emma. We also employ women returning to work. We also employ older people who are locked out of the labour market. There are up to 3.6 million people between 50 and 64 who are unemployed in the UK today. So we take this workforce and we activate it. We activate their language skills as an asset for the UK economy. That makes business sense. It makes social sense. It's the fundamental kind of basis of...

I'm going to have to leave there due to time limits. But, Mersel, it's very good to talk to you. Mersel Hedayat, who founded Chatterbox. Congratulations on your award. Of course, talking about a different climate from your perspective. Some would also point out, not a debate we can have or conversation easily right now, between some of the concerns around illegal immigrants versus refugees. But that is a nuance that will not be lost on our audience. Thank you for your time today. Thank you for your company. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. a sacrifice for today. We'll get inspiration from their achievements and find out how they take care of their physical and mental health. I think it is really important for us to reflect on

what have we missed, you know? The new series of the Joe X podcast from BBC Radio 4. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories

I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.