Woman's Hour - Loan sharks, Social media addiction, Canwen Xu

Episode Date: May 14, 2026

Women are being forced to turn to loan sharks due to a "hidden" but devastating form of economic abuse, according to new research. Scottish Women's Aid has published a study on the problem of coerced debt – where an abusive current or ex-partner builds up debt in their victim's name, either without consent or knowledge or through force, threat or coercion. Anita Rani is joined by Dr Jenn Glinski, author of the report and the national policy lead for economic abuse at Scottish Women's Aid, to talk about the report findings.Canwen Xu was born in China and moved to the US when she was two years old. She grew up in predominately white areas – North and South Dakota and Idaho. When she was 18 she gave a TEDx talk, titled, I Am Not Your Asian Stereotype, which has been watched more than 3.7 million times. Canwen joins Anita to discuss her debut novel - Boring Asian Female – and its themes of identity, ambition, failure, and obsession.The Government is consulting on an outright ban of social media for under-16s, as well as other measures designed to stop teenagers accessing addictive and harmful material. In March in the US, a Los Angeles jury handed down an unprecedented win for a young woman who had sued Meta and Google over her childhood addiction to social media. So, what is social media addiction and how do you identify it in children? What’s the tipping point between a ‘keen interest’ and an addiction? Anita is joined by Dr Bernadka Dubicka, a consultant child and adolescent psychiatrist, and Jenny Afia, a privacy and reputation lawyer for the law firm Schillings, who contributed to the UK Children’s Commissioner’s Digital Task Force.The Royal Shakespeare Company’s musical production of The Boy Who Harnessed the Wind has just transferred to London’s West End. Based on the true story of 13-year-old William Kamkwamba who, in drought-stricken Malawi, and despite the lack of support from those around him, dreamt of saving his village. Anita is joined by the director Lynette Linton, and Madeleine Appiah, who plays William’s mother.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme, Boring Asian Female. Of course I'm not talking about me, but you knew that. It's the title of Kanwen Shu's debut novel about a young Chinese-American woman who's very clever. She's a student who does everything right to get into Harvard law. but when she doesn't and someone else does, her ambition turns to obsession. And, well, no more spoilers from me.

Canwen can tell us more herself shortly. The Boy Who Harness the Wind. It's a new musical directed by Lynette Linton. It's transferred from the RSE in Stratford to the West End. It's an uplifting, life-affirming tale about a Malawian boy who, well, harness the wind by figuring out how to make a wind turbine with, little formal education. And what is the situation in your household when it comes to phone use?

Your ears may have pricked up, particularly if you have teenagers. I'm going to be talking to two experts about phone and social media addiction if there is such a thing and what you can do about it. And I'd really like to put your questions to our experts this morning. Have there been tantrums, fights, an ongoing conflict in your household? Can it feel like war when it comes to arguments over phone and social media use? Are you at your wits end? Or should you even be worried? Is it just the new normal? Whatever your concerns and questions do send them to us and I will put them to our experts. You can get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email the program by going to our website and our WhatsApp number is 0700-100-44. The text number once again, 84844, get your questions in and I will put them to the experts later in the program. But first, women are being forced to turn to loan sharks due to a hidden but devastating form of economic abuse according to new research.

Scottish Women's Aid has published a study on the problem of coerced debt, where an abusive current or ex-partner builds up debts in their victim's name, either without consent or knowledge or through force, threat or coercion. Well, earlier this morning I was joined by Dr. Jen Glinski, author of the report and the National policy lead for economic abuse at Scottish Women's Aid. And I started by asking her what the report found. So we conducted a really deep dive piece of research into coerced debt, economic abuse and sorry, I'm careful. Coerce debt, economic abuse and illegal money lending. And what we found is that there is a truly quite significant hidden crisis of coerce debt among survivors of domestic abuse,

in particular, coerced debt trapping women and children in abusive relations. but also meaning that they need to return to an abusive partner after physically separating because of the level of debt. In addition to that, we found that systems simply are not set up right now to support survivors through this and that are actually exacerbating the issue when women do reach out to look for support with the coerced debt. Before we find out and get into an integrity of exactly what coerced debt is, I mean, your report is believed to be the first focused insight into the problem in Scotland. it's revealed a small but significant number of women. So why are you so concerned when the numbers don't seem to be that large?

Well, I think the small but significant number was in regards to the illegal money lending. I believe that's what you're referring to. So the illegal money lending, we did have a small amount of women say that they turned to illegal money lenders and others who also said that their abusive partner left them with coerced debt from illegal money lenders. The scale of women experiencing economic abuse and coerced out with that is actually quite significant. So our research didn't do a scale-wide research. What we do have is reports from places such as surviving economic abuse that have found that 4.2 million women in the UK have experienced economic abuse in the last year. In addition to that, we also have other pieces of research which point to the fact that 1.6 million UK adults have experienced coerced debt.

Now, this is all, you know, survey data that people obviously present to in order to answer those questions. But as with any form of domestic abuse, the numbers are usually much higher than what we have on record because people are reluctant to disclose, especially around things such as debt, which still carries a lot of stigma and shame as well as illegal money lending as well. Your report describes this as a hidden form of economic abuse. So why has it been so difficult to identify it? So there's multiple reasons for that. Oftentimes women who are survivors simply don't consider what's happening with their finances or with the debt as a form of domestic abuse.

And that's not uncommon. We find that with other forms of domestic abuse as well, sometimes survivors do not identify it as a form of abuse. Usually that's when they reach out to professionals, when they're looking to perhaps separate or look for support with the abuse that they're experiencing, where the professionals kind of give them that language and the support that they're looking for. and that's when it becomes more apparent that what they're experiencing is a form of domestic abuse. The pitfall with economic abuse and coerced debt in particular, and the report shows this very strongly,

is that with these particular forms of domestic abuse, professionals are also not recognizing it. So professionals will look for issues around safeguarding, around physical violence, sexual violence, safeguarding children, but rarely do questions about money and economic resources get asked of survivors, which means that the professionals that they're often seeking support from also do not see this as a form of abuse. So can you explain for our listeners in more detail what we mean by coerced debt? Absolutely. So coerced debt involves an abusive partner or an abusive ex-partner, building up debt in your name, either without consent or without your knowledge or through things such as force, threat or coercion. So what we hear is a lot of women who do not know that debt has been built up in their name by their partner or even, as I say, by their ex-partner.

They usually find out at the point of separation that there's things like credit cards debts, loans that have been taken out in their names. And one of the things that the report has shown quite clearly is around public debts, in particular, counsel tax arrears. And why women, why are women in particular being pushed towards loan sharks in this form of abuse? The report suggests two forms of being pushed towards it. One, when women do reach out for support around finances, very little is available to them. As I've said, professionals don't always recognize this as a form of abuse. There are emergency grants, but those are limited to who can apply to them as well. So what the women in the report have said is the fact that they are pushed towards loan sharks

when there are simply no other financial options left. Things like economic abuse and coercedet leave your credit rating and your credit filed damage. It means you have no access to further borrowing. Oftentimes, through coercive control, women are isolated from family and friends. So that route to perhaps borrowing money or having your parents help you out, for example, is also no longer available. So when you are faced with, I don't have a tin of beans in the cupboard and you cannot feed your children because you have left that relationship, you have no access to finances, and you have course debts that you're paying. that's when usually we see illegal money lending come in.

The second option, oh, sorry. No, no, please, please. Go ahead. The second option that the report shows is that women are actually being left with coerced debt from loan sharks through the abusive partner. So this is where the abusive partner has made use of illegal money lenders and then has left the relationship or cannot be located by that illegal lender. And it means they come after the women for repayment. And that's an additional layer of fear, threat,

and well, physical violence as well. Well, yeah, which leads me on to, you know, what can be the long-term consequences of survivors who are left dealing with debt that wasn't their choice? Absolutely. So we're seeing a lot of consequences. You look at, as I've already mentioned, credit files being damaged,

which means there's no further lending available to women who are often looking to rebuild their lives and rebuild their children's lives but have no access to finances to do so. What we're seeing in terms of the long-term, and this is reflected by many of the survivors I spoke to, is long-term persistent poverty and financial insecurity. And that also means child poverty.

This is women who are not able to provide for their children because of a lack of access to money, coerced debt that is not theirs, and future payments that they need to make. So, you know, Scottish government is very set on tackling child poverty, but perhaps not looking at this. We're also seeing an increased risk of homelessness and of destitution. and then we're also looking at health implications such as chronic stress, anxiety, mental health.

Those are sort of the ones that people speak to the most often. However, we know that there's other consequences as well. In a statement to the media, the Scottish government said it was committed to tackling violence against women and girls in all its form and has invested to £21.6 million this year through its delivering a quality safe fund. And a spokesperson said in December 2025 we announced funding for the launch of a new national helpline, the purple phone run by financially included to help women experiencing economic or financial abuse by their partner. And the Scottish government has committed to support this work until March 2028. This is alongside support for women and their children to leave an abusive partner

through the Fund to Leave initiative. Two million pounds has been allocated to it. And in 26 to 27, which could help up to 2,400 women in Scotland. What needs to change, whether it's policy, financial systems, public awareness. What needs to change to protect victims and to prevent this from happening? Yeah, we absolutely welcome all the efforts that the Scottish government has made. We run a very successful fund to leave as well, which provides emergency funding to survivors and their children. However, what we're seeing is that we need prevention and we need early identification.

And that's with all forms of domestic abuse. When it comes to economic abuse in particular, what we need is a sustained national awareness campaign of what economic abuses and what coerced it is. You asked me rightly, you know, what is the definition of this? What are we actually looking at? As I said, survivors are not identifying it as it occurs and we're seeing professionals as well across the board who are not identifying it. What we're then also running into is the fact that when it is identified, there is there are very very few places where you can go to resolve this. So we very much welcome places like financially included and the Purple Phone, who is the first helpline in Scotland,

that can support victim survivors with the coerced debt. However, they seem, and other places seem to be hitting a wall when they look to support. And oftentimes there's nothing we can do about this debt. And that needs to change. So alongside this public awareness campaign that we're asking for, we also need practical, legal, and financial support to address coerced debt. And that simply isn't in place right now. And in places where it is, it's incredibly inconsistent,

or people simply don't know about it. that was Dr. Jen Glinski speaking to me earlier this morning and if you have been affected by anything you've heard in this interview you can go to the BBC Actionline website where you will find links to support. 844-844 is the text number. Now, American writer Kan Wenshu, was only 18 when she gave a TEDx talk titled I'm Not Your Asian Stereotype,

which has been watched more than 3.7 million times. She's now written her debut novel called Boring Asian Female. It's a cracking suspense thriller with themes of ambition, failure, identity and obsession. Canwin was born in China and moved to the US when she was two years old. She grew up in a predominantly white area, or white areas, I should say, of North and South Dakota and Idaho. And she joins me now to tell me, well, you can tell me your whole story yourself. But I'm going to say welcome. And first of all, congratulations, Camwin.

having watched your TED talk from 10 years ago when you were only 18, I am not surprised that 10 years later you've written this brilliant thriller. Oh, thank you. You flatter me. If you haven't seen it, honestly, wait until after the program and watch it. Very impressive. We will talk about you and how impressive you are, but let's talk about the book first. And the main protagonist of this story, Elizabeth Zhang. Tell us about Elizabeth.

So Elizabeth is someone who has worked hard her entire life. Kind of has a chip on her shoulder because she always felt like She was under-recognized or ignored growing up in these places where everyone was different from her. And then when she gets into Columbia, she has this one dream, which is to go to Harvard Law School. And she works so hard to get in. And then she finds out that she didn't get in. And actually someone else in her year, who she sees as vastly inferior to herself, does get in. And she starts spiraling and becoming obsessed with this rival of her own making, Laura.

and she just kind of does some really unhinged stuff after that. And it's brilliantly written and a real page turner and it will have you gripped. Why is she so obsessed with getting into Harvard Law School? Where does that determination come from? I think it comes from the fact that this is someone who hasn't done a lot of work on themselves and that she has always tied her own identity to external validation. and she sees this as the holy grail of finally feeling like she matters in the world and that people will appreciate her and see her for how brilliant she is.

So it becomes really a proxy for her self-esteem and self-worth. She, as you mentioned, goes to Columbia. You also attended Columbia. Yes, I did. And she, I mean, there's so many little things that I want to pick up on. One of them is how she observes the other students there who are from more privileged. backgrounds. How much does that fuel her ambition, her obsession? For sure. I mean, I think that she feels like she traded in one type of inferiority for another. So there's one line, I think,

in the book that's like, when I was in high school, I wasn't cool because I wasn't white. But then when I was in college, I wasn't cool because I wasn't rich. Yeah. So I think that, you know, when I went to Columbia, I also was someone who, you know, I hadn't traveled a lot. Like, I just hadn't been around people who were from these extravagantly privileged backgrounds. And they had a certain way of moving in the world that I just wasn't used to, this kind of blind confidence almost. And I think that's also why I set the novel at Columbia. Obviously, being my debut novel, I wanted to write about something that I felt familiar with.

But also, I wanted to really observe all of these different dynamics at play and all of these different people who go to a school. like this. Yeah, like the scene. There's a scene where they're desperate to get into the party at the Brownstone, which where basically the elite of the elite go to. And you're queuing up to go in, desperate waiting. And then you go in and it's actually not that, it's not a great party. No, no, it's not. It's not even that great. Yeah, it's really not. She talks about percentiles a lot in terms of how smart and hot people are. For example, she's in the 70th percentile for attractiveness. But even then, that's within the context of being. Asian, not within the context of women generally, and the 99th percentile academically.

Explain more. Yeah, well, I always thought percentiles was really interesting because, you know, when you're growing up, you're always being judged by some kind of percentile, whether implicitly or explicitly. When you try to go to college in the United States, you have to take the SAT. And the first thing that you see next to your score is what percentile you're in. And then when you're applying to college, you have acceptance rates. And that in itself is also a percentile. Are you in the top five or ten percentile of the applicants that year? So, you know, I wanted to really write a character who took the percentiles extremely to heart in that I don't think she really believes that these type of external markers are a true reflection of how good someone is intrinsically or morally. It's more that she has

observed that the world treats people in a different way, places people on a hierarchy in a different, in, in this particular way. And she wants to essentially game the system and the first step to gaming that system is just understanding where she currently stands and what metrics she's being judged on. Yeah, that's very good. And she's grown up with hardworking ethics instilled in her from her immigrant parents, armed with impeccable grades. She scores very high academically. Again, percentile, she's in the 99th percentile. So how much pressure is she under? And let's talk about expectations. Yeah. I mean, I think that anyone who maybe comes from an immigrant household knows that there is an expectation to create a better life for yourself than your

parents did, to basically do better. And that's another one of these expectations that she really took to heart. And it, I think, mirrors some of my own experience. where, you know, I felt a lot of pressure to do materially better than my parents. But one area of growth that I felt for myself is sometimes doing better doesn't just mean materially better. Sometimes it means living the life that you want for yourself. Because ultimately, money is a means to happiness, right? So why not just skip directly to the happiness rather than changing the means to the end? And have you tried to explain that to Asian parents? Has anyone had that?

No, you know, it's funny because my dad always really wanted me to study computer science when I went to college. He was like, listen, he was like just at least minor in it. You know, you don't have to major and at least minor in it. So I concentrated in it. Did you even want to study it, though? I mean, like, I think it was like he told me that this was the thing that you need to study, right, to have a stable career and a stable life. So I did concentrate in it. It was very difficult.

It was not my thing. And after I got my book deal two years ago, I called him and I was like, see, Dad, like, you wanted me to study computer science. So my parents are really, really proud of me. And they have been so supportive. And actually, the book is dedicated to them. Yeah, beautiful. Can we get a reading? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So this is chapter five. I could join the Peace Corps, volunteer in the South Bronx for a year. develop and recover from a debilitating drug addiction and use the fodder to write a best-selling memoir. Take care of a schizophrenic uncle or an orphan niece. Work as a nightmanager at McDonald's and write think pieces about the working class. All to remove what Robert said had been wafting off my application like the stench of New York City curbs on garbage day. I was boring and not boring in one of the acceptable ways. Wanting to go to that law school because your parents are graduates of the same institution.

being one of those rich kids whose parents went to boarding school with the dean of admissions, or being the other kind of rich kid whose parents will donate a sizable sum, just so your application gets a second look. I was boring, and I was a nobody. And for all they knew, I didn't even want to go to law school. I was just another robotic Asian kid who didn't want to study computer science or go to medical school. So this was the only other option my parents would approve of. I was squarely in the Asian female bucket,

and that was a damn hard bucket to stand out in. As much as I wanted to defend myself, I couldn't argue against the truth. As soon as he said it, I could see it myself, the room of the five admissions officers pouring through the applications. They would see me, Elizabeth Zhang, fresh out of a top undergrad, sky high scores, and say to each other,

I'm just not sure what she adds to our student body. It was the politically correct version of what they really meant. do we really need another one of these? I was boring. Specifically, I was a boring Asian female. Oh, yes. We can give a round of applause. We've got the other guests sitting in the studio.

Honestly, it's such a gripping race. I mean, the title is very provocative. Yes, it is. How long did you sit with coming up with that title? How long did it take? Did you begin with the title? No, you know, I didn't begin with the title, but I remember after writing this passage,

I was like, that's the crux of the book, right? Because it's like boring Asian female. That is how other people perceive Elizabeth. And by making that the title, you're subverting that in a way that I think is really interesting. Yes, definitely. And you're making people think and bristle or not, depending on your own experience, I suppose. And that paragraph just shows how you can sum up the experience because it's just not enough for her to be academically exceptional. It's like, and what?

You can't get away with it. I mean, there's so many strong themes in the book about identity. And Elizabeth, like you, grew up in North and South Dakota and Idaho. And you gave a TEDx talk. I'm not your Asian stereotype. More than 3.7 million views. You were only 18 when you did it. How did it come about?

Well, you know, they were actually having open applications in the area that I was in Boise. and I remember I went to this workshop where it was basically training the people who wanted to apply on, you know, how to make your application for the speech really strong. I came in actually with a completely different idea that I don't even remember. And when I pitched it to one of the event organizers, she was like, you know, like this isn't really a great topic for you to talk about because you're not really an expert in this. You know, you're 18 year in high school. what is a topic that you are qualified to talk about? And she kind of just threw this out. She was like, you could talk about, you know, being Asian American in like Idaho,

which is, you know, there's just not a lot of discourse on that. And this is so strange, but at that moment, I just started crying. And I hate crying in front of people. Like, I absolutely despise it. And it was like all of these memories from my childhood, all of this discomfort that I guess I had been repressing up until that point just really came out. And then when I went home, I channeled that into my application. And I channeled that into the speech.

And I think the reason it became popular was that I was telling the truth. And I wasn't trying to say this is how everyone feels. But I was saying this is how I feel. And a lot of people found it relatable. Yeah. It's really relatable. You talk about your experience, as you say, as an Asian woman growing up in predominantly white area and the stereotypes that are put on you.

there's so many things that I want to pick out actually you talk about the model minority to explain what that means, what you meant by that. Yeah, well, the model minority myth really comes from this perception that Asians are the quote unquote good immigrants where they're the hardworking ones and they're the ones who are going to take instructions

and do the job well. But then it seems like it's positive, right? But then you go a layer further and it's like, it's actually really dehumanizing because it goes back to this idea of boring Asian female where you're respected for your work ethic, but you're not respected as a human with your own interests and passions,

the things that make you not boring. Yeah, you're just going to get on with it quietly and not rock the boat, but it also pits minorities against each other, right? It puts us into different categories, which is also very, I mean, yeah, we know what it is, divisive. then you talk about being obsessed with the Sims, which is a computer game at the time.

Explain what happens with the Sims. Well, again, when I was growing up, I didn't think that hard about my identity. And obviously, I always felt that I was different from the people who were around me because I looked different. And then one thing that I realized when I was writing the speech, you know, now it's more than 10 years ago, is that even when I was creating these fake characters, you know, in the Sims game, I was making them all white. I was, and I didn't even think about it, right? It just felt like the default that they wouldn't look like me. And now when I was writing this book, I was like, I would, I would, I want to write a character who is my, my identity and she's not, you know, she doesn't have all these similarities with me. I haven't stalked anyone before. But, you know, it is, it is, it is.

something that I've been working on of changing my default. Yes, I really love that bit because I thought, here I am watching a young woman make a speech at TEDx 10 years ago, and I'm about to talk to her about her book that she's made, because you've changed it. You've put an Asian woman at the center of, and not just a kind of a, it's a very nice story, it's a good story, but it's a twisted tale. And we like that. And so how do you feel 10 years later? I'm actually thinking, I wonder what the reaction would be if you made that speech now. Oh, gosh. Well, I think now the speech wouldn't resonate the same way because people are having these conversations. I think something that has happened in the past 10 years is that there have been a lot more conversations about Asian representation and just representation of diverse identities.

And throughout those years, you know, I noticed that it's like all of these characters that were coming out. They were all very likable Asian characters. And that, you know, I'm not saying that this is the be all end. doll for ending inequity, but it meant a lot to me emotionally just to see people on screen who looked like me. But then I guess when I was writing this book, I wanted to take that a step further by creating an unlikable Asian character. I mean, it's like, I don't think the first Asian character who enters the zeit guys should be unlikable, but I was like, I think there's enough of them now where I can create someone who is a bit unhinged. People aren't really going to

root for her that much. but she's really interesting and she's definitely not boring. She's definitely not boring. And no, no, no Asian women in this room are boring. I'm just going to put that out there. It's been a pleasure speaking to you. I want to wish you the best of luck with that. Oh, thank you so much.

And are you already writing your next novel? Yes, I am. Right now it's about a serial killer piano prodigy, but it's, I just have a first draft right now. You definitely fall into the highly successful Asian woman stereotype. I'm just going to put it out there, but it's good. And we want more of it. Canwin, shoot, thank you so much.

Thank you so much. And Boring Asian Woman is out now. 844 is the text number. Now, to the question of children and their phones, social media in particular, do you think your child is addicted? Australia's social media ban for under 16s, which came in five months ago, is already under scrutiny because children are finding ways around it. In the US, a landmark case in March saw a young woman known as Kaylee awarded $6 million. after META and Google were found liable for social media addiction. So it seems increasingly likely that access to social media will change for some children in the future.

But what if that feels as if it's coming too late? What if in your home it feels like the horse has already bolted? Your teenager is absorbed in an online world, always one step ahead of parental controls, finding work around, spare phones, new accounts. What if it feels like parenting, what it feels less like parenting rather, and more like playing whack-a-mole. Well, get your questions in. It's 84844.

I can see that they're already coming through and I'll come to them in a moment because I'm joined now by Professor Bernadke, de Bitska, a consultant, child and adolescent psychiatrist for the NHS, who is leading on updating the Royal College of Psychiatrist's position statement on technology and the mental health of young people. The last was published in 2020 and the new one will be released in the next couple of months

for Greater Manchester Mental Health Trust and Jenny Affia, a privacy and reputation lawyer for the law firm shillings who contributed to the UK Children's Commissioner's Digital Task Force. Bernadka and Jenny, welcome to Women's Hour. I'm going to come to you first, Bernadka. Parents use this phrase, phone addiction,

but can you actually be addicted to your phone? Or can children be? Let's come to adults in a minute. Our pleasure. Before I start to talk about that in more detail, just to say that there is no universally agreed definition of social media addiction or internet addiction. However, there is an international definition of gaming disorder and addiction, so we do have that. But there are particular features you would look for for any form of addiction. So the sorts of things you would look for is that behaviour the most important thing to the young person?

Are they doing that constantly, the exclusion of everything else that might be important in their lives, such as seeing friends face to face? or getting outside or sleeping and eating properly? Do they start to get withdrawal symptoms if they start doing it? For example, do they start to get really irritable? And are they developing mental health problems as a consequence, for example, low mood? So those are the sorts of things you'd be looking out for. And certainly in my practice in the clinic over the years, there's certainly a few young people I've seen where they would qualify for that kind of an addiction.

For example, I've seen a number of young people over the past. number of years who've had porn addictions, teenagers. And that certainly would qualify as an addiction because I'm constantly looking at porn sites and finding it very difficult to stop that. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, no, just carry on. It's just fascinating. What are you finding, I guess, most tricky as you're wading through the documents in

this research? Wading through the research? Yeah. The research is incredibly difficult. So there isn't a simple, straight answer to any particular question with regards. the evidence based and there's a number of reasons for that much of the research is quite poor so a lot of it for example might ask lots and lots of children how much time do you spend on social media that's not particularly useful if you don't know what they're doing on it and also we know kids

don't report accurately either and then often they'd ask questions for example what's your well-being like well that's not particularly useful if you're asking 30 000 children on people but what is much more interesting and useful to know about is you know what type of child is looking at what sort of stuff on social media, who are they interacting with, what are they doing, and how is it affecting them in what circumstances? So we need that really detailed research of which we've had very little in the past. There's more happening, so much more interesting studies coming online. However, the problem is we're always going to play catch-up.

The Royal College in 2020 requested the government mandate tech companies to share real-time data so we could see what's happening to children online. well, that hasn't happened. And so researchers don't have the benefit of having real-time data, and we're always having to ask those sorts of questions. However, at the University of York, where I work, we have set up a new project, which is one way forward. So we've got something called the Smart Data Donation Service

run by my colleague David Zendell. And what we're asking people to do there is to donate voluntarily their smart data, and then we'll keep it safely and then share it securely and anonymously with independent researchers. With adults or children? At the moment we're going down to age 18 but the hope is that we can go down further once we have the right systems in place to do that.

Because if you're going lower than 18, it would require parents to access the phone voluntarily from their children and I guess that could be the tricky part because that's so much anxiety as you know among parents about how much time their children are spending online or on their phones on social media and whether or not it's actively harming them.

I mean, is there something, what does the scientific and academic evidence say? I want to put it to go as difficult, but I can certainly say there's certainly fairly, you know, fairly emerging evidence now that problematic use, however that's defined, excessive use of social media, can be harmful to children and young people, particularly around sleep, particularly if you're using excessively around sleep times. And we know that poor sleep in itself is a driver for mental health. problems, particularly for girls thinking about body image and eating disorders and also around self-harm. Those are some of the key areas. And girls in particular do seem to be affected more.

However, some of the more research studies are sort of finding differing gender effects. Sexting, for example, is another area which is really important to young people these days. It's become a concurrency of communication. There's been very little research in that in the past. a few more studies coming online recently. However, that's something I do see in the clinic quite often. And again, it's girls who seem to be disproportionately affected. I'm going to bring you in in a moment, Jenny, but you've brought up girls being disproportionately effective.

So obviously, we need to unpick that a bit more. How is that happening? You've mentioned sexting, but what else? The other thing about social media is even if you're not on social media, so if you're a girl who's not on social media, your entire world and culture around you, and the values are affected by what everybody else is doing on social media. So the sorts of things I have come across is so the teenager might not be on social media,

might not be affected negatively. However, they might be depressed and they might be self-harming. And I've certainly encountered cases where you start to ask a little bit more. You ask about their boyfriends, their relationships, and then you might ask what sort of things is he like doing on social media. And it turns out he's really into the manosphere, into Andrew Tate or where the new influences out there. And then the girl is in a coercive relationship and abuse. And then the girl is in a coercive relationship and abusive relationship, and it's affecting her indirectly. So as a psychiatrist, I think it's really important that anybody working with girls and women ask those sorts of questions and find out a lot more about people's online lives and think about those indirect

effects as well. 844, if you have got a question for Bernadka, if you want me to put it straight to her, I will do. Jenny, welcome. Good morning. Give us some legal insight into all of this because we know in the US, jurors have found that Meta, which owns Instagram, Facebook, WhatsApp and Google, owner of YouTube, intentionally built addictive social media platforms that harmed the 20-year-olds mental health. So this is, and the young woman affected as a teenager, has been awarded substantial damages. This is a case in the US. Could something like that happen here?

Theoretically, yes. We have laws of negligence and we know that tech companies owe a duty of care to do. children and to young users. So theoretically, somebody could bring a case. In practice, we are not well set up for it. And I don't see it happening. The damages were $6 million in America, which is a huge, obviously huge amount of compensation. It still won't have a big impact on meta. I mean, it's the equivalent for a cup of coffee, the senior execs there. But the English legal system is not set up in a way that would sort of encourage those kind of claims or class actions. Nor do we really want it to be. What we need is fundamental change so that the apps are

they're designed to be safe from the start. If we're relying on lawsuits after the event, then something's gone very seriously wrong. Some parents are pressing for a social media delay similar to Australia's. The government here is consulting on that until May the 26th, as well as other measures designed to stop teenagers accessing addictive and harmful material. The Education Secretary Bridget Phillips and has said there will be restrictions for children even if there isn't an outright ban. Do we know more? Can you tell us more? No, it's pathetic. They basically, the current government have said, we will be looking at this over the next two years. I've been campaigning in this area.

at least since I was pregnant with my first child, she's now 12. And nothing meaningful is changing at all. I'm going to just bring in a statement because we have one from the government, a spokesperson from the Department of Science, Innovation. Technology said we've been clear that we will take action to make sure children have a healthier relationship with social media. This isn't a question of whether we will act, but how we will act in the most effective way. Our consultation is looking at everything from age limits and safer design features to a social media ban. We're also running pilots with hundreds of UK families to ensure we take the best approach based on the latest evidence.

We've got, I'm going to bring in something from our listeners, one of our listeners here. Fiona has written in to say we're currently working through the smartphone issue with our 12-year-old, who is in her first year of secondary school. We noticed how normal friendship issues are blown up on messaging services. She now has a boyfriend also in year seven who is pressuring her by telling her he feels sad at 9 p.m. every evening because he knows that she's not allowed to message or be on her phone after that time. We feel like we're constantly in dialogue with her about pushing boundaries, staying safe and healthy phone habits. What advice would you give her, Bernadka? It's so hard, isn't it?

And it's so hard when parents are having to battle with this. And it shouldn't be the responsibility of parents alone or young people alone. But the important thing with this parents is that she is having a dialogue. and that's great, and that's the most important thing, particularly, you know, 12-year-old is going to become a teenager soon, and that dialogue is so important to find out what's happening on social media, what's upsetting her, not to be judgmental about it, but trying to keep having those conversations,

and then try and come to some sort of agreement about setting boundaries in. But obviously, the older your child, the more that dialogue is important. And if you're too judgmental, get into arguments about it, they're just not going to tell you what's happening. When parents try to intervene and their children, met with intense resistance, verbal, even physical aggression. What should they understand is happening neurologically and emotionally in that moment? I can't really comment neurologically, but, you know, it's like setting boundaries with anything that you don't want your child or teenager to do.

You know, if you don't like their peer group that they're going out with, it's really difficult, particularly when you've got a teenager. The important thing is you don't get into physical altercations because that's not going to be helpful in terms of building up a relationship. But again, it's taking a bit of time out, you know, trying to take a deep breath and then keep that dialogue going. Because as I say, there might be things happening on social media. They've not told anybody about it. And I certainly see that in the clinic. That might be the first person that they've disclosed about really important things because they feel too ashamed to discuss it with anybody else. So keep the dialogue open, try and find out what's going on and then try and have that conversation about how to help them.

And then, you know, help them to sort of bring back other activities in their life. I mean, I'm going to bring you in, Jenny, just that phrase that you said that teenagers are, you're often the first person that they've revealed this to. I mean, it terrifies me, you know, just made me sit up and think, you know, that as parents, that's absolutely the worst thing you want to hear. But Jenny, yes. Yeah, and that's the tip of the iceberg. It's for stuff that they're not revealing.

Yeah. It's probably even more concerning. But I would say when advising parents on dealing with phone addiction, it's not just understanding what's going on in their brains, but under. understanding that the tech is deliberately designed to be addictive. So when features like autoplay on YouTube are just built in, and all of these attention traps are created by some of the smartest brains in Silicon Valley, to then expect children and young people to just put down their phones and establish their own boundaries,

it's just such an uphill battle. And that's why we need fundamental change, which is installing safety by design. And from a legal standpoint, like what can, could we talk to teenagers to help them understand what the consequences are of what they post online? Yeah, absolutely. And what are they? Well, yeah, I mean, we know as adults the, how permanent content is once it's posted online. I often advise high profile individuals who are having problems with their career now because of content that they posted 10 years earlier. guest created amazing content a decade ago, but most of us don't or didn't. And whilst the

prominence of such content can be reduced, something online will always live online. And it's really helping teenagers understand that. Under current UK laws, then, what rights and protections do children actually have online? Well, they have theoretical rights under the Online Safety Act, which imposes duties on tech companies to protect them from harmful content. For adults, the duty is only to protect them from illegal content. But in reality, the rights are pretty just theoretical. So, for example, individuals can't make complaints. There can only be group complaints to offcom.

Offcom is unfortunately incredibly slow to act. There's news today of action that they've finally taken against. a website that helps people with suicide, which includes content like selling poison on the website and discussions about people taking their own life. And this site has finally received a fine of just under a million pounds. Parents have been campaigning for years to try to stamp it out. And it's just really not good enough.

I'm keen to get another question from our listeners for you, Badanka. and Emma's written in to say, my 17-year-old has grown up with social media on all types of electronic gadgets. She deleted Instagram while studying her GCSEs because she recognised that it was a massive distraction. Now she's studying for her A-levels. The screen is always on in the background while she's studying.

Has her ability to pay attention changed because of her use? Can she actually study with screens on in the background? Obviously, comment on individual circumstances depends what she's doing on the screen. She's got, I don't know, some music, her music on, that might be a helpful thing. But if she's got lots of notifications on

and can continue interrupting her work, that's probably not helpful in terms of her attention. So it depends what she's doing. But great on her, she deleted Instagram. So she does have some recognition that it might be unhelpful, so it'd be great if her mother can carry on having those conversations with her.

I've just got to read out a couple of statements as we did mention offcom there. And the spokesperson post and did say we often hear concerns from children, parents about the amount of time youngsters spend online and the heightened risks that come with infinite scrolling. While the current scope of our powers

do not extend to tackling social media addiction, the government is currently consulting on restricting risky functionalities and design features that encourage excessive use as the online safety regulator, off-com is driving change in an industry that has prioritised engagement over children's safety for decades.

Our rules now make tech firms responsible for keeping children safer online. In the first year since the Act came into force, we've investigated nearly 100 platforms, issued 16 fines and expect to announce more in the coming months. We've pushed the biggest services to go further to protect children online and we won't hesitate to act where they fall short. And we've had a statement from META saying we respectfully disagree with the verdict

and this is to do with the court case in America. And we'll appeal teen mental health is profoundly complex and cannot be linked to a single app. We will continue to defend ourselves vigorously as every case is different and we remain confident in our record of protection. protecting teens online. There's so much more we can talk about on this, but we will just have to come back.

And there's just so much, and there's lots of questions coming through. So, you know, it is a subject. We will be coming back to no doubt very soon. But for now, I want to thank you both for speaking to me. Thank you, Jenny, and thank you. Banatka. Thank you both. 8444-4 is the text number. Now, William Kam Quamba was 13 years old.

when to help his family through a famine he built a wind turbine out of scrap parts to power electrical appliances in his home in a village in Malawi. His story was published as a memoir and the actor Tuotel Ejifor then adapted, directed and starred in a film version The Boy Who Harness the Wind and now the RSC, the Royal Shakespeare Company, using the same name, have created a musical about him.

Lynette Linton is the BAFTA nominated director of the musical responsible for directing a number of success. plays in the last few years, sweat shifters, intimate apparel to name a few. And Madeline Apaya is the actor who plays William's mother Agnes. They join me now. Welcome both of you. Hello. Hello.

Lovely to have you here. Now, Lynette, tell us about William. He grew up in Malawi in the 1990s. Give us a little, very quickly, an overview. He's the most inspiring, one of the most inspiring people I've ever met. I don't really get starstruck. But when I met William, I was just, like, blown away. He is a genius

And yeah Just inspiring He's got an aura about him You meet him, don't you? And he yeah He kind of just makes you think about the world A bit differently That was another TED talk I watched actually

In preparation his And you're right Inspiring Because the play is set in 2001 Yeah Really challenging time in Malawi Community facing You know the challenges of weather

Weather related disaster Nearly 7 million Malawians face starvation. What did he do? He, despite questions and concerns and the situation, built a windmill to find power for electricity and to power well for water and brought that to his village. Yeah. Why was it important to tell his story? And how do you turn it into a musical? So we So Tim Hughes and Richie

I'm mixing it all up Tim and Richie created the musical based on the film and has constructed such a beautiful retelling of this amazing story true story I think people are genuinely kind of blown away that the story is true because it really defies the odds

doesn't it? Yeah. That a young boy at 13 with high school, really early education, is able to create this windmill out of recycled material. Yeah, yeah. He literally hangs out in a scrap yard, finds scraps, teaches himself to do this. When you read his memoir, the first time,

what was your reaction and your response to, and did you know this is something that you wanted to work with? It's really interesting because I had heard his story and then I was approached by Kenny Wax, our producer, and he was like, we're thinking about doing this and he gave me the book. And for me, when I have to respond to material, so I sort of read it, I literally was like, okay, cool,

this sounds inspiring. When I read it, I literally was tingling because it just, I always describe it as kind of like a fizzy feeling when you go, this is so important and we need to do this. And I think it's so special in the medium of theatre because it's live. And literally you're sitting there,

you're feeling it in a way that you don't in other mediums. You have real life humans coming up to you and telling this story, and I think that's what adds this extra magical element to it. And something that theatre can do in bodying movement created by Shelley Maxwell, our choreographer, and the music, and when words are not enough,

a melody can take you to the next play. Yeah. And the lighting, even when you think about how sometimes the lighting can just shift a moment and, again, tell you... And the set design. Set design. Tell us about the set desire. I work with this incredible set design.

called Frankie Bradshaw. She does quite a lot of my shows. We work to get that a lot. Yeah. She's incredible. She's amazing. She just dives in. She's so wonderful in her research. We actually traveled to Malawi to actually experience. We've done this on a few of our shows. We have to, if we're going to do something that isn't set in London in the time that we're talking about, we have to go and do the proper research. So Frankie and myself and a couple of the team went to Malawi, went to the actual windmill. It was incredible. Pilgrimage. It was amazing.

So that we actually were there. We saw it. You know, we got costume and we got props from Malawi and so that she was able to take it in and literally smell it, you know? And Madeline, you play Agnes, William's mother.

Tell us about her. Agnes is an incredible woman. She is the mother to William Kamkwamba. And I was thinking about this. You can see traits of her in both her children that we present in the play, Annie, her forward thinking, her defiance to kind of just continue to do things, even though as a woman, it may not be acceptable.

Her brain, she's smart. She's got the most bars, hasn't she, Agnes? She'll give you a proverb for anything, you know, and they really land. And she, her husband describes her as the thing that binds the family together, the thing that keeps the family moving forward. She's forward-thinking. Education for her is so important, even in a time when you're actually deciding whether you need to eat or pay your bills, she still believes that education is going to be the key

to change her family's destiny and she's right. Yes. And then the family, the family had more children than shown in the production. William had six sisters. Yeah. And it's clear that their parents wanted some, as you say, wanted something more for them. What do you know about what lay behind how different they were to other families? I think the desire to educate their children, the desire to,

kind of understand that we can't just go off rituals or the norms, she really wanted them to be modern, forward thinking. And that's one of the things that her and a tribe will talk about often. They're trying to be modern. They're trying to be forward thinking. And it is hard because if they're, you know, once a famine comes, then you're really, you know, up until the last moment, they still wanting to put their children through education. And all her children survive, which is incredible because so many people lost their lives, right?

And they survived. And it's been amazing because Williams come, his younger sisters come to see the show. And just to kind of know that this legacy is actually living on

and they get to see and experience it again from a different perspective. It really is a beautifully uplifting story. I can't wait to see it because I'm very good at weeping in dark spaces. Just like,

Just like Camwen, I find it very difficult to weep in open space. Dark theatrical cinematic spaces or in aeroplanes, very good. What was it like your director directing a musical? Yeah, for the first time. The challenges. It was amazing. I mean, I love working with actors. So that's the thing I do.

I think I do best. You are incredible. But to learn how to work with live musicians and music, a composer in that way, a musical director and supervisor, it was incredible, a massive learning coach. Well, look, I teased at the beginning of the program with one of the pieces of music. It's one of the main numbers from the production. And I'm actually really excited that we're going to.

I'm posing myself. I'm ready. So this is where the village, his friends and those around William question whether his invention can actually work. I will be dancing. Yeah. Please. Which brings me to the audience because it's been in, I mean, congratulations. You were in Stratford and now you're at the West End, which is a brilliant achievement.

Different audiences? Yeah, it is. I mean, Stratford, we had such a beautiful responses. Like, one of, like, people would be coming out and just feeling like life is worth living. I mean, we had one person say that to an usher. And, you know, I know we're actors and we're not doing brain surgery. But when you hear something like that, it gives you the purpose. Like, someone had a terminal illness and had spoken to an usher to say, I didn't know how I was going to face this. Now today, I know that there's hope. That's incredible. And what we find now, in London is that the audiences are diverse and young people are coming, lots of young, and people are dancing. So you won't be on your own. And responses are, responses you've never had before in terms of different places and people are very vocal about letting us know how they feel but it's incredible and when you're looking in the audience and you're seeing young children watching this story, being inspired,

getting off their phones, amazing to see. I mean, and we cannot wait to see it. we are going to run out of time but I just wanted to say congratulations Lynette on your play Shifters which you directed at the bush a couple of years ago it's transferring to New York yeah so we needed to give you a little shout out oh thank you so much Lynette is actually incredible she is and and I'm so glad well you both are thank you both for coming in today Lynette Linton and Madeleine Apaya and the boy who Harness the wind is on at the Soho Place Theatre in the West End until the 18th of July

Join me tomorrow. We'll be talking about the menopause and ADHD. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Hello, it is Danny Robbins here for years now on Uncanny. We have explored real people's potentially paranormal experiences. But one thing that listeners have often asked me is why don't we look at supernatural cases from the past? Well, you asked and we listened. Our new series, Uncanny Cold Cases, takes a deep dive into some of these stories from the most haunted house in England to the original UFO abduction case.

Can we make sense of these strange stories that have haunted history? Uncanny cold cases. Listen on BBC Sounds.