Woman's Hour - Lolita Chakrabarti, Ian Paterson investigations, Therapy speak, Child sexual abuse in Uganda, Girl’s World

Episode Date: April 17, 2023

Ian Paterson, who became known as the butchering breast surgeon, is currently serving a 20-year jail term after being convicted of 17 counts of wounding with intent and 3 counts of unlawful wounding. Now the Sunday Times has revealed that 27 inquests have been opened as a result of investigating the deaths of 650 of his patients. Nuala speaks to campaigner Debbie Douglas, who was one of Mr Paterson’s patients, and the Sunday Times Health Editor Shaun Lintern.Is 'therapy speak' making us selfish? The prescriptive language of the therapist’s couch has slowly seeped into everyday life, particularly online where words like ‘boundaries’, ‘self-care’ and ‘narcissist’ are increasingly common. But when it comes to friendships, is the idea of self-care making us give up on them too easily? Sociologist and writer Amy Charlotte Kean talks to Nuala about how our relationships are being affected.In the next in the Woman’s Hour Girl’s World series, Ena Miller has been talking to three girls in Glasgow, Saskia, Francesca and Olivia all of whom are 13 and 14 years of age. We often talk about girls and their lives on Woman’s Hour but we rarely talk to them, so Ena asks them - do they feel listened to? Award-winning playwright and actor Lolita Chakrabarti joins Nuala in the Woman's Hour studio to talk about the new play 'Hamnet'. Maggie O’Farrell’s best-selling novel of the same name tells the story of the death of Shakespeare’s 11 year old son as she would have us believe it happened. Having sold more than 1.5m copies the story has now moved from paper to stage at the RSC in Stratford Upon Avon thanks to an adaptation by Lolita. She'll tell us why she was so drawn to telling the story of the people around Shakespeare.A new BBC Africa Eye documentary, Uganda’s Stolen Innocence, investigates the increasing levels of sexual violence and incest in Uganda, particularly in the North. Documentary producer Nicola Milne and Ugandan lawyer Eunice Lakaraber Latim join Nuala to talk about the lack of faith in the justice system and how the legacy of the insurgency led by Joseph Kony fuelled this issue further.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome. Well, last week I went to not one, not two, but three plays. You might know we spoke about dancing at Lunasa. Tomorrow we will speak about Wagatha Christie. And today we have Lolita Chakrabarty with us. Lolita adapted the

Maggie O'Farrell's Hamnet for the stage and I was lucky enough to see the brilliant performances in Stratford-upon-Avon and we are lucky enough to have Lolita join us this hour as we delve into history and also the stories of often overlooked women. Also today, we're

going to focus on a very modern problem, that of life coachification of relationships. So friendships in particular. What am I talking about? Well, when self-care becomes careless selfishness, do you have any experience of this? Have you encountered a friend unable to deal with a problem that you may have because they're at emotional capacity and need to have boundaries? You will have seen the whole social media trend on self-care. But is therapy speak ruining our regular relationships? Women are often conditioned to be there for their friends. But has self-care become an excuse to duck out of obligations or perhaps a vital tool enabling you to protect

your own well-being if this is resonating on either side you can text the program the number is 84844 and we're also on social media at bbc woman's hour or email us through our website if you'd like to send a whatsapp message or a voice note That number is 03700 100 444. Also today, we'll have a story from Northern Uganda. In the wake of the pandemic, there was a more than fourfold increase in girls aged 10 to 14 becoming

pregnant. Now, some see it as the tragic legacy of the Lord's Resistance Army rebel insurgency that took place there, where now decades later, girls and young women are unable to get justice after sexual assault. So we will also talk about that. But let me begin with, you might have seen in the Sunday Times over the weekend, that they have revealed that 27 inquests have been opened as a result of investigating the deaths of 650 patients

that were treated by a surgeon who carried out unnecessary and life-changing operations. These are cases where coroners, and I quote, believe there is evidence to have reason to suspect that some of those deaths may be unnatural, unquote. Ian Patterson, he became known as the butchering breast surgeon. He's currently serving 20 years of a jail term after being convicted of 17 counts of wounding with intent and three counts of unlawful wounding. Mr. Patterson, who is working for both the NHS and private hospitals in the West Midlands, was diagnosing cancer when there wasn't any and also cutting his patients open with these surgeries for no reason, performing them when they were damaging and unnecessary.

He also carried out unregulated cleavage sparing mastectomies, as they were called, in which breast tissue was left behind, meaning cancer returned in many of his female patients. Now, 27 inquests have been opened in cases where coroners believe, as I mentioned, that some of the deaths may have been unnatural. Campaigner Debbie Douglas was one of Ian Paterson's patients and has been campaigning on behalf of others. We're going to hear from Debbie in just a moment. But I want to begin with the health editor at the Sunday Times, that's Sean Linton. Sean, welcome. Thanks for joining us. So what do we know about these 27 inquests

that have been opened? Yeah, so the coroners in Birmingham, Emma Brown, Louise Hunt, have opened these inquests because they've been reviewing the medical records of, we believe, hundreds of Ian Pattinson's patients

who have since died. And they genuinely believe that there may be questions to ask about how these patients died and whether or not Patterson's actions, and particularly with the cleavage-sparing mastectomies that you mentioned there in your intro, whether those actually may have contributed to the cancer returning for these patients and then dying. Now the coroners have not been particularly transparent about these inquests in the process. Even the families involved have not been given much information about this and the recent inquests were only opened on the 24th of March but some were opened as far back as 2020. So there's a long time passing for these families.

And really, we need to know a lot more about what the coroner's processes are and the criteria for them choosing these cases. But we know that they've appointed a High Court, Deputy High Court Judge Richard Foster to lead these inquiries. So they're really taking it very seriously in Birmingham. Does it feel like it is moving at a faster pace because you know I've mentioned some of the years that that's a long time ago that people went through this? Yeah and I think you know you have to bear in mind that

Ian Patterson was suspended in 2011 and here we are in 2023 still talking about potential inquests that haven't even begun to be be heard yet so i think i you know spare a thought for the the families involved in these cases because we're we're talking decades uh of torment really for these families who who want answers and i think for me that the coroners need to do a lot more in explaining exactly what they're doing, the cases they're looking at and why and what sort of timescale we're talking about here. Well, Debbie is with us, as I mentioned, Sean, stay with us. Debbie, how are you feeling? You're seeing some of those headlines that there's potentially another 650 deaths that could have been caused by his actions? Actually, at the moment, I'm really pleased that finally it's coming out in the press because it's something I've been fighting for for the last 10 years. So at least there's a little bit of traction behind it now.

As Sean said, the inquest started in 2020 and the process has been very slow but before that um pre the Patterson inquiry um there was no information about people that had died just the numbers I mean I believe the numbers are greater than that have been reported um at least uh 675 patients were dead in 2017 in the NHS when um a consultant Martin Lee, looked at the figures for the NHS. And a further 1,000, over 1,000 are dead in the private sector. So for me, if those patients had a diagnosis of breast cancer and they died from a breast cancer-related illness, then they should all be looked at, every single one of them. And that's my concern,

is that there isn't anything hidden. Originally, the inquiry said they were going to look at 23 cases. That was a sample of Patterson patients. That's now been opened to 27. And as Sean has reported, another 650 to be looked at. But I do believe the figure is greater than that.

So that is very clear on what it is that you are looking for. Sean when that's put to the coroners why 27 all these numbers that Debbie has illustrated there what's their response? Well it's very disappointing actually the coroner's officers and a team of lawyers from Higgs solicitors who were appointed to assist with this investigation, they have point blank declined to do any interviews or answer any questions. And they do have a dedicated website that they've created for this process. But things go up there without any notice. And, you know, patients like Deb, who've been campaigning on this for years years they're finding

things out via me and via other journalists and via the website there's no sort of announcements going on so I think in all honesty the process is pretty poor from a sort of open justice perspective at the moment and there are huge questions about this what what are they doing exactly what are they looking at and the Sundayay times featured a case study um where family alan bridgewater's wife denise who died he has medical expert reports saying that pattison may have contributed to her death but the coroners have rejected her case for an inquest and we're not sure why it's so interesting so you're laying out the questions but you're not even getting an answer to the questions why they're not following those questions as opposed to the actual answers.

On our part, we have asked the coroner for Birmingham and Solihull for a statement, but they have not got back to us yet. Debbie, of course, you are speaking to other patients and I'm wondering what this morning feels like for them. It's I think that, you know, you look after all these years um the police are turning up on doorsteps and telling families we're opening an inquest into your loved one and that's what's happened with the most of the 27 some families have come forward and given their documentation and medical records of their loved ones to the coroner proactively a few have been passed over by um the private sector a very small number compared to potentially hundreds that we're talking about. But they must be wondering, did my loved one

actually, you know, do they need to still be here? And would they still be here if they hadn't met Patterson? So for me, it's heartbreaking. I actually put before the inquiry six friends' names. I'd been to their funerals and I'd put their mass sheets forward and read out their names to the inquiry and said, push for them to look at the inquest. And they only looked at the inquest after the inquiry, opening inquests after the inquiry. So for me, it's sadness for the families,

but also they're now getting a voice they're being you know heard their deaths may have been unnecessary they may not but you know we need to understand that families need to understand that So I'm wondering then Sean what would it take do you think

what sort of pressure because Debbie's talking about all she's doing with other families to be able to have more transparency in this process? Yeah, well, I think we just need to see the coroners open up a little bit more, really. Explain the criteria. We know that they've got a team of medical experts sifting through these patient records, but we don't know exactly what they're looking for and how they're making these decisions. I also think that, you know, it's not really acceptable for information to be put on a website without any sort of alerting of families, journalists or other interested parties.

So I think they just need to improve the process really so that everybody can understand this and we can we can know where this is going. And we also need to know what the clear timescale for this is. This is a scandal that's dating back decades now, and it's not really acceptable for us to still be in the dark on this process. You know, the Sunday Times has tried to shed a little bit of light this weekend, but there's many more questions. And as Deb has said, you know, we've got over 1,000 patients who died in the private sector.

And, you know, there's lots of questions there about what exactly was going on and how has this been allowed to continue for so long. And Debbie before I go, this of course something that we talk about has happened in the past you're left I suppose in these very muddy waters at the moment

trying to get answers. Is there a way to know that something like this won't happen again in the future? Certainly. From the Paterson inquiry, there are 15 recommendations all around patient safety that are still to be implemented. So the government needs to ensure they're implemented.

They need to get on with the job in hand and do that. At the moment, a consortium can still rent a room in the private sector without any recourse if things go wrong and if patients are harmed and it's a criminal act then they have no indemnity no cover and patients are coming to me because they don't trust the system I'm being asked to review medical records because patients don't believe what they're being told after being failed so so much over the years so it's all been piecemealing it needs a transparent process yet as Sean said what they want to know is what's the

criteria um how many patients are they going to start looking at are they going to look at all the deaths um I only know what I think is the criteria because people come to me and I say to them ask the solicitor what your criteria is, why is your case being rejected, why they're taking your case up. But I will say to people who think there's an issue with their loved one, is ask for the medical records on the NHS website and on the SPIA website, there are two numbers for recall. Ask for your loved one's medical records to be reviewed and if there are any issues, if they've died and you want to pass them to the coroner, pass them to the coroner for review. Your story was very shocking of surgery that you underwent that was unnecessary,

major surgery, I should say. Are you at a place of being able to accept that, direct your anger towards this campaign? I'm just wondering on a day-to-day basis because obviously, particularly over the past few months, it comes up again and again in the news. Yeah, yeah, it's always difficult, you know,

when you get into the personal story of it. However, I do direct all my energy to initially justice. This has been going on for 10 years now for me personally. It took me a long time to get my own medical records reviewed and I had to do that through a solicitor. I'm in the process of going through it again with Spire um so it's difficult but I'm you know really focused on getting those answers because there is nobody else frankly fighting because there are other people that are part of it and have spoken up of course there are but it's it's it's been this constant battle to get it in the news,

to get my story heard. And Sean will know this. We've been talking for the last few years and I've got a lot of links with journalists because it's getting that story out there.

And finally, it's gone to national level and finally people are listening to it. So it is a massive story and it needs to be heard and it needs, you know, we need answers.

Families need answers. I want to thank you both for coming on to update us on this latest part of this story. That is campaigner Debbie Douglas that you were hearing from, who was one of Paterson's patients. Also with us, the health editor at the Sunday Times, Sean Letourne. And Debbie was mentioning Aspire Healthcare there. They did have a statement earlier this year. They said, although we cannot put right the wrongs of the

past, we are determined to do everything we can to support the victims of Ian Paterson, including those he treated before Spire was in existence. Now, I want to move on to another story. I was asking you the question a little bit earlier.

Therapy speak, making us more selfish. Text 8 84844 the prescriptive language of the therapist's couch has slowly seeped into everyday life you might have noticed particularly online so you love words like boundaries self-care narcissist and they're pretty common but we are asking is the idea of self-care giving us an excuse to be selfish? Quite simply, a bad friend. Amy Keane is the author and CEO of the social learning company Good Shout. She's been talking about this to her followers, joins me now. The minute I mentioned therapy speak, I saw you kind of pop up in your chair. It's the hill I'm going to die on.

Well, you know what? There are some people already getting in touch. Let me see. Good morning. My very own only daughter decided two years ago I was not the mother she needed. Her words. And we're talking about friendship,

but it can also be other relationships. She raged at me and moved from next door, taking my beautiful grandsons out of my life. It's been the most painful estrangement. All this is justified that she is protecting her mental health. It's selfish and causing so much damage to her wider family. I worry she's had very bad advice from a therapist who has no idea what a loving mother I have been and how I long to talk to her. Another one.

Setting healthy boundaries is crucial to our mental health and well-being. Feeling guilty about setting them is linked into self-esteem and thinking that others need to be more important. Others needs, excuse me, are more important than our own. The great thing is we can work on that. As a therapist, says Una, I'm totally therapy speak fluent. But this is really about that everyday relationship and this new language entering it between friendships. Absolutely. And I think there's two very big problems that are happening concurrently that I don't think bode well for society. So first of all, we have the quite rapid increase

in use of pop psychology jargon by people who aren't trained psychologists. And then the second issue that's happening at the same time is that you have people increasingly using self-care as an excuse to be selfish. And I think both of those things happening at the same time, Instagram has a lot to answer for, by the way, is meaning that everyone is beginning to consider themselves the main character, not just in their own lives, but in society. And so what might happen if everyone's being told to be selfish, set boundaries, prioritise self-care, is that we all end up in silos, only thinking about ourselves and not thinking about the social context that we exist in.

So I know you call this the life coachification of relationships. But many would say, you know, having those boundaries or being able to articulate them can be wonderful. And particularly women and girls who can be conditioned to sometimes look after other people's needs before their own and be people pleasers, for example. So I know you're, I can see you're dying to jump in. Go on. I think the problem with human beings is that we will always take things too far. I think that's the problem. So I think society's more mature conversations around mental health are absolutely needed. And they probably saved a lot of lives. I think about my parents generation, my mum in particular, ever mentioning your emotions was a terrible thing to do. And with my dad, he would never discuss his emotions. But I think what we've done is we've taken it too far. And this is human nature we'll exploit concepts politics money anything in order to serve our own needs so you feel like the pendulum has swung too far absolutely absolutely and i

think it's probably because you know excuses like i need to protect my boundaries i'm not coming to this party today it's called self-care i think um okay well let's take that one, because that's when people flake. Yes, absolutely. Some people have more of an issue with it than others. But what about between relationships? Is this just a way perhaps of avoiding confrontation or that conflict? And instead, it's kind of easier to say, oh, you know, I need to take some time for myself or I'm sorry, I have to fill my own cup before, you know, my cup needs to be full. Isn't that what you say? Before you can then help others. But you laugh. I mean, it can be kind of a very intense world that we live in, be it social media or otherwise, and that people do need to protect that space. And friends, whatever, might be a longtime friend, but maybe they're taking too much.

Is that not a valid...? Absolutely. I think we've lost the art of disagreement. I think we're too scared of confrontation as a society. But I think the problem here is that people are leaving it too late to discuss their mental health. So if, for example, if you cancel on the day, it probably means that you've been feeling a

bit rubbish for a while so it's a party or a social engagement we're really bad as a society about talking about our emotions when it's a really good time to talk about them which is early on so normally i mean you see it with burnout culture people will wait until they're the most stressed they've ever been and then and then they'll talk about it right at the last minute. And I think we need to get much better at talking about our emotions and our struggles and admitting to that weakness in inverted commas. The fact that we're fragile on an always on basis and just being more honest about it rather than using jargon. So is it the jargon you particularly have an issue with? I despise the jargon. OK, an issue with? Despise the jargon

Okay, listen, here's a couple of messages that have been coming in My childhood best friend called me, and excuse my language here listeners a bitch for spending time with other friends which ultimately led to our tumultuous breakup last year I don't see much hope for change or empathy from my friend It's hard, life going on without her and a part of me may never get over our friendship but she makes me feel unsafe

so I cannot have her in my life anymore I just have to comfort myself by reminding myself it's the best thing I've ever done since the break the way I see everything including myself has changed and I've grown immensely from it and I've seen that with some of this therapy speak particularly that term unsafe. I think it's just another way to say that you don't like someone, which feels so much harsher. So I think often we're using this jargon as a comfort blanket to avoid the real truth. I've expunged people from my life just because I didn't like them anymore. That's the reality.

Oh, so because my next question was, if you don't feel good with a friend, shouldn't you put yourself first or, you know, weed the social garden, as I heard somebody quite harshly put it, particularly post-pandemic or during the pandemic? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I think during the pandemic,

we all took stock of our lives and realised what we wanted and what we didn't want and who was there for us during that time. I absolutely applaud people who'd make the decision to let someone leave their lives because they're not making them feel great. But to blanket that in quite... So it's the euphemism that is annoying you. Yeah. But also I want to pick up on something that was in the email. I think, again, when you're not a qualified psychologist to use language like narcissist, sociopath, without really knowing what those words mean or what those concepts entail,

we've got to the point now where anyone we don't like is a narcissist, even though only 5% of the population have narcissistic personality disorder. So I think mental health is not only being used as a comfort blanket, but it's also the language is being weaponised, which I think is also quite dangerous. Here's another one. I am a 22 year old who is completely exhausted with my peers self-diagnosing themselves with mental health issues. I feel it is incredibly limiting and prevents them from stepping outside of their comfort zones and growing into fully formed adults. I mean, that is interesting, because at the other stage, of course, a lot of people are being encouraged to really explore their mental health and to be very open about mental health issues. So what a tightrope to try and walk. Absolutely. And this is why, you know, everyone's a therapist these days, everyone's a life coach these days. Instagram is filled with

24 year old life coaches telling other people how to live. I think that's the dangerous part. It's the same with the life coach space. The lack of regulation can actually be quite damaging because people are convinced they have anxiety, they have trauma, when in reality, they may not. Or they may. Or they may, in which case they should see a qualified. Okay, so that's it. You're also into the fact that it's not professionals that are putting this message out. And do you think it's really diffuse, quite pervasive? Yeah, I think it's I think it can get to a place where in society we've all we've been selfish for millennia. But I think we could be getting to a place in society where everyone is so obsessed with themselves that they forget about everyone else.

And I think there's a balance. I think that's what we need to be mindful of. Always striking the balance. And thinking about that other person. Amy Keane is author and CEO of the social learning company Good Shout. She's been talking about this, as I mentioned, to her followers. Here's another one. Morning.

I can't believe you're turning self-care into a misogynistic view of being selfish. Women are constantly told to be less selfish. Please question the question, Woman's Hour. But I think you've laid out how you feel about it, Amy. Again, I want to hear more from our listeners. 84844. Another one.

As an autistic person, I need to set boundaries from simple socialising so I don't burn out and receive long term mental health issues. So a lot of people that have been thinking about this. Thanks so much Amy. Thank you. Now here on Woman's Hour we do often talk about girls and their lives but we rarely talk to them. So as part of

our series Girls World, Enna Miller has been talking to three girls in Glasgow Saskia, Francesca and Olivia all of whom are 13 and 14 years of age, and she wanted to know whether they feel heard. Do you feel listened to? Sometimes I do. At school we have our pastoral care teachers.

Something we didn't have at school. We all have the same one, and she's really helpful. She actually does make a difference. If you go to her about an issue she will help solve it within the same day and and I really appreciate that because it makes me feel a lot more happy and safer at school if I know that these issues have been resolved. I don't speak up much but I have tried to like point out things if things are going wrong but I don't really feel like one voice can really make much a difference but

climate protests there's been quite a lot and I've gone on quite a lot and it's been a really interesting experience but like still nothing's really been done so it feels just a little bit disheartening to like spend all that time outside like shouting screaming at people and it's not really done much so it's really hard to know if my voice is making any difference olivia your voice is heard out there um no not really because i'm not like famous or anything i feel like people who are celebrities if they're raising awareness about things climate change or domestic abuse or the LGBT rights or racism or whatever, gun violence, for example, and the abortion laws. I feel like if they raise awareness about it, then people are like, oh, they're talking about it.

Whereas I feel like if I posted something on social media, a couple hundred people would see it, and that's like that. Nothing would happen. A couple hundred's quite a lot of people. No? In the terms of normal people, that's quite a big number, but in the terms of social media, it's very little compared to everything else. Especially if they're just the same age as me, just 14-year-old girls, they can't really do much either.

Obviously, they can repost it, but they can't really do anything unless they sign a petition or something like that. Anna Miller there with Saskia, Francesca and Olivia and you can listen to all the episodes of Girls World on BBC

Sounds. Now, while we were listening to that somebody slipped into the Woman's Hour studio and it is to do with Maggie O'Farrell's best-selling novel, Hamnet. If you know that book, it tells the story of the death of Shakespeare's 11-year-old son, as Maggie would have us

believe it happened. And that book has sold more than 1.5 million copies. But the story has now moved from paper to stage at the Royal Shakespeare Company in Stratford-upon-Avon thanks to an adaptation by playwright and actor Lolita has now moved from paper to stage at the Royal Shakespeare Company in Stratford-upon-Avon, thanks to an adaptation by playwright and actor Lolita Chakrabarty. Welcome.

Hello. So good to have you with us on Woman's Hour. And for our listeners, they may know your previous stage adaptations include the award-winning Life of Pi that ran in London's West End for over a year and has opened on Broadway. I got to see Hamlet at the end of last week. Such a moving production. Congratulations. Thank you very much. And for those not familiar, Hamnet

it is the name of Agnes Hathaway and William Shakespeare's son who died of the bubonic plague. But also your production, Hamnet is called A Love Letter to Passion, Birth, Grief and the Magic of Nature. Talk us through about what piqued your interest to take that book and turn it around.

Well, it's a beautiful book, right? And everyone I meet has a relationship with it. Either they're intending to read it or they've read it or their mother gave it to them or their father's reading it. And so, I mean, you read it and it it goes in one sitting doesn't it it's just so engaging and it's such a modern voice of a age-old story that none of us really know the facts of what happened to william and agnes or anne hathaway and their children um so it was it was a beautiful story and it reinvented um shakespeare but his wife yeah reinvented Agnes for me and I thought that was a really big challenge for the stage well and we'll talk about Agnes in just a

moment do you feel more pressure when there's a book that's loved that much totally and what's interesting is Life of Pi which you mentioned is extremely loved, but has got 22 years under its belt. So the love is very definite and there's ownership there, but it's had time to settle. Whereas Maggie's book carries a passion and a heat in it because people read it in a very complex time, right? It came out during the pandemic and it resonated hugely as a great story but also because of the time we were all in so yes that's the long answer to your question and the backdrop of the bubonic plague within the book and I have to say you know you felt like reading it went by in a flash I felt like that watching your adaptation oh brilliant yeah totally

completely and it just seemed to grab you up. It's very energetic to let people know as well. It's fast paced. They kind of use the whole stage, which has just been beautifully refurbished, the whole Swan Theatre. It looks amazing. Packed house, no surprise there. Did you work

closely with Maggie O'Farrell? It's no, I suppose. I mean, I kind of did because it's her book and it's her story and her words. And she was very, very generous and allowed me to tell the story in the way that I wanted to tell it.

I mean, it's a strange relationship. So she read a couple of drafts and she gave feedback, really valuable feedback. But I think she acknowledged that theatre is a different beast. Yes. And there was a gentleman sitting behind me throughout the whole production. It was to the lady beside him who he didn't know. How close is this following the book? Did this happen? It's quite funny. I thought you might enjoy that.

You know, why don't we play a little clip? Because the relationship between Agnes and William Shakespeare is this thread that goes throughout the play. But not all about the love story. But let's listen to a little bit of when the two of them first meet. Do you blow me out like a candle? I cool your heat. Why do you come every week?

To teach the boys. Stay at the house then and do your job. But you're the only reason I'm here. I hate it here. If I choose you... I'll choose you. But I have nothing to give. Just myself.

That is more than enough. Madeleine Mantock there as Agnes and Tom Volley playing will knock out performances right tell us about Agnes tell us about that character that did take centre stage well this is Maggie's character

really that I have then fleshed out for the stage she is her mother was someone who came out of the forest and who was a mystical character, really, somebody who was good with herbs, spirits, nature, and has passed her gifts on to her daughter. And the mother died when Agnes was four. And she was brought up by her stepmother and father.

And when we meet her in the play she's 26 years old and she is again a creature of nature, somebody instinctive, maybe a seer, maybe someone with second sight, maybe not, maybe just somebody who has that instinctive, natural, medicinal abilities and she is a strong woman. She can't read. But then Maggie said that, you know, we assume people who can't read are, if they're illiterate, they're stupid. And that's far from the case, because at that time, reading was not a necessity. If you had it, that's marvellous. But if you didn't, there were other many, many other ways to communicate and things to do. So she's a smart, fiery, strong woman

who knows herself in a different way to how you would assume. And an older woman. Yes, an older woman, yes. She's 26 at the beginning and Shakespeare's 17. And then by the end, she's in her 40s. The play covers 18 years. There's so much about Agnes, I think.

Her role as a mother, and of course, we'll come to the grief as well. But it's full of strong women. There is Hamlet's twin, that's Judith. There's his older sister, Susanna. There's Agnes's mother that you mentioned that comes up, who feels like she's a character there. Her stepmother, her neighbour Jude. We often don't know the stories of women from that time. No, absolutely not. I mean, well, history is written by a certain demographic of person until quite recently.

You know, it's quite a male voice that has told us the stories in the past. And, you know, we all like to see ourselves in stories we tell, right? And I assume the same goes for historians. So they focused on the men in the story. And of course, William Shakespeare is this unbelievable character. How amazing that this man wrote these fantastic plays and was such a genius. And we don't know that much about him. So we can imagine and try to put the facts together but you know the women and the family behind him

are his engine right these are the people who have informed his work who instructed his education and his growth and his personality and that is what the play and the book looks at. And he did leave to go to London. They remained in Stratford. Do you see that as an abandonment of his family? No, not at all. I mean, I'm an actor, as you mentioned, and, you know, you go where the work is. So you pack a bag, you leave the family,

you go for a week, you go for six months, you go where the work is because you have to earn. And no, I don't see it as abandonment at all. And when you think that walking, you had to walk from Stratford to London, then there were no coaches, a horse was quite expensive. It would take four or five days to walk to London. So that's a big commitment, right? If you're coming home, you have to come home, knowing that that's going to be, you know, a chunk of time out of work. So no, I don't see it as abandonment at all. You did introduce a little more of

William Shakespeare than the book. Yes. Why did you decide to do that? It's interesting. The book is called Hamnet. Yes. But the story follows Agnes. And I thought, well, Hamlet doesn't get made without William. And their grief, her grief is a shared grief. And the whole point of the story really, is that this amazing play Hamlet is written from his grief. So there is a thread running through these, the parents, the son, to the creation of the play. And it's, for me, the story is about the relationship of husband and wife, and how it created Hamnet, and that created Hamlet. How much do we really know about their relationship, their marriage? Nothing. I think I stand to be corrected. There's probably a few facts. I think we have the date

of their marriage. So we've been able to work out her age and his age. But in terms, oh, we know about the second best bed that he left her. Oh, tell our listeners about that. So in his will, he left his wife his second best bed. And this has gone on to be interpreted that that was a slight

because it was only the second and not the first. But what's really interesting is, you know, you go to the Tudor houses and you get the history from the tour guides. And the first bed was often like the best china. It was displayed in the parlour and not used. And the second bed was where you lived. So he actually left her the bed in which they were married

and consummated their love and that they shared. And that was the bed she got. So it's all a matter of perspective, isn't it? I actually went the day after to Anne Hathaway's cottage and I saw her bed, which, of course, hundreds of years old now. And I thought that was incredible. There was another bed as well that they had, you know, after you'd had a child, you'd kind of pull it out, this little trundle bed. And that the children would be there kind of as part of the family in the bedroom and very close. And I think it's incredible that there's still standing structures that inform something from so long ago. I understand that you used an Elizabethan phrasebook, for example, to also get into the minds.

I did, because you want flavour, don't you? It's a modern play about an old story. So it needs to have resonance and currency now, but flavour from before. And so I found this fabulous Elizabethan kind of a dictionary. It gave words that were used and relevant in in in that way that you know when i speak to my children who are 19 and 22 now i sometimes don't understand what they say i'm like can you translate that please uh so i've tried to use that same feeling of language from that time um to make it more current some of it very funny as well oh good. But let's go back to the death of Hamnet.

And do you think the grief is different for a man and for a woman? Oh, how can you ever say, right? It depends on the personalities involved. I suppose I was looking at the play, trying to decipher how Agnes was really trying to navigate that. And for Will, he left, he went back, he threw himself into work and obviously created Hamlet. But she was left holding the babies, so to speak, that older sister and the twin who did survive the bubonic plague.

Yes, well, with the characters in the play, definitely different. That's the cause of their fracture really in their relationship. She's an instinctive person. The division of labour was very clear then where the women stayed at home, brought up the children and ran the family and men would go out to work. So that is an immediate division, isn't it? And so her loss is in the heart of her life, which isn't to say that his loss isn't in his heart, but he gets to go off and, I don't know, process it differently. And in the play, she is a person of language in an expressive way and he is a person of language on the page.

So it's a different type of processing of emotion. There has been lots of discussion recently about women as the crucial buyers of fiction and that theatre makers are trying to tap into the power of that in regards to Hamnet, of course, and The Time Traveller's Wife, naming two of them. Do you think what's happening is based on a financial reality for the theatres? How do you understand it? How do you mean? I've got this huge interest in Hamnet,

for example, or The Time Traveller's Wife. And like, perhaps it's something that was there, but not tapped into previously, sometimes when it came to works of female fiction. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think a good story is a good story, right? So none of us will dispute that. But I think the focus on stories by other people about other people, I mean, the world is wide, right? And we've looked at stories through a certain lens for a very long time. And what's so exciting now is that there are different voices coming through. And it's mad, isn't it? When you think that we make up more than 50% of the population, that we are the other story. That's just crazy. So there's a lot of catching up to do. So maybe we're just starting to do that. I should let our listeners know as well that

a transfer to the West End has already been announced for September. That was before the production even opened in Stratford. Very rare. Were you surprised by that or were you thought yeah, that's good. I was surprised and excited and terrified and everything all at once because, you know, suddenly you go

oh, okay, it's got to be good now. Not that it didn't before, but, you know, you just go, okay, this has got a long tail to it. No, it's very exciting and it gives us a chance to look at it you know a piece of theatre is a work in progress so although you work up to the opening night and you go right here we go this is our show it's kind of not it's a live thing so we will continue to shift and move and and and perfect is the wrong word, but keep it growing, I think. So the West End is another chance to keep it moving. How did it feel the first time you saw it on stage?

Oh, it's terrifying. With an audience, I should say. It's wonderful and it's terrifying. You know, this goes from me sitting on my own in an office with a blank page to start with nothing other than Maggie's book and trying to think how will I tell the story to then translating it to a room full of creatives and artists who put it together to then showing it to a group of strangers as an audience and I mean it's it's a fast and frantic and fabulous process but it's also quite scary because you just don't know how it's going to land.

Some visceral parts I'm just thinking about as well. The childbirth scenes, for example. Yeah. I mean, this play covers life, which is why I think it corresponds with everybody, actually. It covers life, death, joy, loss. I mean, a resolution of sorts. It's life, death, joy, loss, you know, I mean a resolution of sorts. It's not a straightforward resolution.

And art and creativity and friendship and romance and yeah it covers an awful lot of things and yeah there's quite a lot of weeping in the audience. I do want to let our listeners know as well that as a result of the attention of the story focusing on Agnes and her children a bust of her has been created and sits

in the Holy Trinity Church in Stratford where her body has laid beside her husband's all these centuries. And Maggie Farrell has arranged for the children to be remembered. What has been organised? Oh, it's beautiful. She got permission through all the different councils

and authorities to plant two rowan trees in their honour and they both have, each one has a quote from a Shakespeare play. One is Hamlet, and I can't remember if the other is Twelfth Night. I can't remember which play it is. But it's very moving, you know. Yeah, they're two rowan trees. Yeah, beautiful. We mentioned, of course, a playwright, but you're also an actor. What's next? And how do you balance them? This is just so all-encompassing,

I'm sure. I know. It's mad. It's two careers in one. I'm mad. I haven't managed to do that much in the last year because it's been so busy with Life of Pi and Hamnet and other projects and Sylvia at the Old Vic. But I did manage to sneak in. I was in season two of Screw for Channel 4,

playing another politician. I'm knocking off my authority figures. Somebody who comes to inspect prisons. So that was fun. That will be out later this year, I think. Well, it is wonderful. I will let our listeners know, Lolita Chakrabarty, that Hamnet continues in the Swan Theatre in Stratford-upon-Avon until the 17th of June.

And then at the Garrick Theatre in London's West End, that's from September 30th to January 6th, 2024. Thanks so much for coming in. Thank you very much. Now, I want to turn to a documentary by my colleagues at BBC Africa Eye that is out today. It investigates the increasing levels of sexual violence and incest in Uganda, particularly in the north of the country. Reports emerging from their show in the wake of the pandemic,

there was a more than fourfold increase in those aged 10 to 14 becoming pregnant. The documentary is called Uganda Stolen Innocence. It explores the lack of faith in the justice system and how the legacy of the insurgency, led by Joseph Kony,

fuelled this issue further. So that was the Lord's Resistance Army, or the LRA, as you might have heard it called. I'm joined now by the producer of the documentary, Nicola Milne, and Younes La Karaber Latim, a Ugandan lawyer for the international charity Caritas, which helps poor and vulnerable people all around the world.

Nicola, let me start with you. Why did you want to shine a light on northern Uganda in particular? Sexual violence is something, of course, that happens all around the world, including the UK. Thank you so much for having us on the programme. I think really throughout the pandemic, there was a huge rise in child pregnancies. We heard globally, as you mentioned, the over 300% increase in children aged 10 to 14 was kind of an astounding figure that came out of Uganda. But the more we investigated, the more we found out...

Do you know what? I'm so sorry. I'm going to just jump in there for a second forgive me Nicola for stepping over you there it's just I'm afraid the line has glitched a certain amount so it's not I'm not able to hear you that well so I'm going to turn to Eunice instead. Eunice welcome to Woman's Hour you're a lawyer that is helping people in this region deal with the abuse and we'll hear a little more from Nicola in a moment but why do you think we are seeing that figure of a fourfold increase in those age 10 to 14 becoming pregnant? Thank you so much. Now Eunice, Eunice your line is in and out a little bit as well

I'll give it a moment and let's see can we you know what I'll do actually I'll do a little bit of social media because an awful lot of comments that are coming in actually on a previous segment and we will reconnect with Nicola and Eunice in a moment just when we have a better line to both of them Eunice is in Uganda so we'll try and rectify that. We were talking about self-care a couple of moments ago

on Woman's Hour, and I was asking you, you know, is self-care making us selfish? Not really me asking, our guest was asking. And here's some comments that is coming in. Is self-care making us selfish? I agree that pop psychology is a menace, but remember the value of professional therapy, which can be life transforming and life preserving.

Perhaps mention the two accrediting bodies in the UK, UKCP and BACP, when looking for a therapist. Another, Claire, as a lifestyle charted physiotherapist of 38 years, I've looked after so many women and I've had to instill into them to look after themselves first before they can have energy to look after anybody else. I am very aware, though, that society has become very much about me. It's an interesting concept. I wonder what you think about that. Has society become too me focused? Here's Lynn. I'm a 66 year old woman who is eventually happy in her own skin after eight years of therapy with a certified and very experienced therapist. My therapist does not use therapy speak and encourages care of others alongside self-care. Not everyone can afford it. So the use of therapy via social media will continue. Yeah, it's a good point, Lynne. Thanks for getting in touch, 84844.

Right, let's return to the story out of northern Uganda. I'm joined by Nicola Milne, the producer of the documentary Uganda Stolen Innocence and also Eunice Le Karaber-Latim, a Ugandan lawyer for Caritas. Nicola, hopefully we have

reconnected with you there. Forgive me, go ahead on why you've decided to pick up on this story in particular. Oh, thank you. I hope you can hear me. I think once we start investigating what was happening in Uganda, we heard stories in the north of a legacy of a 20-year insurgency with the Lord's Resistance Army, in which 2 million people were displaced, 25,000 children abducted. And the kind of, if you like, a kind of moral fabric of society that has shifted since then, as people have learned the ways of war, those that returned having been abducted, a generation wiped out, seem to have brought back, if you like, into communities

a terrible and a kind of tragic way of life. And the level of poverty and the lack of justice and the lack of access to resources has meant that what's unfurling in society is, I think, a kind of tragic situation for young girls. And although globally there's been a rise in child pregnancies, we felt that this was something that was really extraordinary. Often the media spotlight shines on a place at an acute moment in time, but actually communities suffer the long term afterwards, if you like.

Yes, and I've heard this many times, whether, you know, you can go really over the past few decades, you know, where there has been a conflict that there can be, you know, that violence becomes somewhat ingrained, that there can be, you know, that violence becomes somewhat ingrained in that society. But I'm wondering about why in the wake of the pandemic,

these figures are being seen. Is there something to do with that as well? I honestly think in the north of Uganda, and Eunice will speak to this, but I hope as well, there's multiple layers. It's not the pandemic itself that has caused the problems there. This has been going on for many, many years, if you like, since the end of Kony's War. But I think that communities there have, and this happens all over, multiple, multiple layers. Not only was there a 20 year insurgency that didn't end that long ago. Then we have a pandemic in Uganda. Schools were closed for two years, possibly the longest lockdown in the world. And then actually, as we went to film, there was a lockdown again due to an outbreak of Ebola. And amidst huge

poverty and deprivation, there's just one layer after another, after another. So I think really, it's not the one thing or it's not just the pandemic there by any means. So I want to turn to you, Nis. And in this documentary, defilement comes up a number of times. Can you explain to our listeners what that is, how it differs from incest in Uganda when you're talking about the sexual abuse of children?

Hey there, can you please come again? Sorry, sorry, I didn't get that last part. No worries. And I do understand, Eunice, that you are somewhere quite remote and so the line isn't fantastic. But can you define what defilement is? Because that is the issue

that comes up again and again in your documentary. OK, thank you. When we talk about development in the context of... I'm afraid the line just... I'm sorry, Eunice. The line is just breaking out a little bit too much. I'm so sorry to do that.

Sometimes we can have a better line, but just today it a little bit too much. I'm so sorry to do that. Sometimes we can have a better line, but just today it isn't working for us. Let me go back to you, Nicola, because of course you've worked on this as well. Can you explain defilement and how it differs from incest, which, you know, people might be thinking about when there's relatives that are involved in the sexual abuse of children? Yes, and I'm so sorry we can't hear from Eunice, but essentially the age of consent in Uganda is 18, which is highly relevant. And defilement is unlawful sexual intercourse

with a girl below the age of consent. And they do have different layers, if you like. If a girl is much younger, it becomes aggravated defilement or a repeat offender. Or if a perpetrator is HIV younger, it becomes aggravated defilement, or if it's a repeat offender, or if a perpetrator is HIV positive, that becomes aggravated defilement. And incest is a separate category. Eunice has taught me all this, a separate category under the penal code, which is not necessarily related to age.

But what's happening in the north of the country, I think, is a huge combination of both in a way, sadly. crime has occurred it can be very difficult to get justice in uganda even as one author the ministers of the northern state has said why is that explain it to our listeners i don't go ahead nicola. I think there are... Oh, I'm so sorry, Nicola. I'm so sorry. And I'm so sorry to our listeners as well. It's unusual that we have two lines that don't work well enough.

But that was Nicola Milner and Eunice La Carabar Latim. What I can say is that there is more on our website, BBC Africa Eye. It's called Uganda's Stolen Innocence, and it talks about the justice system, the difficulty, particularly for poor or vulnerable people, that they actually have to pay to house the prisoner, to feed the prisoner if they're in the justice system, also to have the medical records actually paid for.

So eye-opening and very sober stuff, But take a look at it there on our team, on our website, on the BBC website or indeed on the BBC app. And it's called Uganda's Stolen Innocence. I want to read a few messages that have come in, of course, some in reaction to Lolita Chakrabarty, who was just here talking about Hamnet and her adaptation for the stage. Victoria said, I had a big operation in July 2021, which left me recovering for weeks. My sister-in-law sent me the book and from reading from the very first page,

I was hooked. Just the best book I have read. Wow. And I urge my friends and family to read it. It certainly made my recovery easier. Well, that's Victoria. We could do that, couldn't we? What we read during the pandemic

or during recovery. Back to self-care. Let me see. I don't have a name for this person, but it says your article on using self-care is resonating so strongly. My husband is currently

going through a midlife crisis and is constantly using the phrase that he needs to protect his mental health and that he needs to protect his mental health and that he feels emotionally unsafe to justify disengaging with family life at the weekends and not talking to me. He's clearly very sad, but it feels that these terms get used to justify not taking ownership for his feelings and giving himself permission to behave incredibly selfishly while the rest of the family have to walk on eggshells around him.

Yes, this is something that lots of you have opinions on. 84844. Keep sending them in and we'll take a look at them as well. I want to thank everybody who contributed to today's programme. Great to get all your voices on

on the various stories we're covering. I will let you know that tomorrow morning from 10 I'll be joined by both the director and the author of Vardy vs Rooney, the Wagga the Christie trial, the Scouse Trap, as they called it. A dramatic representation of what was said

during the court case that caused such sensational headlines. It's a hoot. Join me then. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.