Woman's Hour - London Grammar’s Hannah Reid, Women and Trump, Domestic violence

Episode Date: April 29, 2025

London Grammar frontwoman Hannah Reid joins Nuala McGovern to discuss more than a decade at the helm of the band, their fourth album The Greatest Love, and what it’s been like navigating the music industry as a new parent.With US President Donald Trump reaching the 100 day mark of his presidency, who are some of the women in his cabinet? And what impact have those first 100 days had on women's lives in the US? Nuala speaks to Republican Sarah Elliott and Democrat Kristin Kaplan Wolfe to get their thoughts.April, a new film set in the Eastern European country of Georgia, tells the story of Nina, an obstetrician who faces an investigation, after she was unable to save a baby during labour. But the investigation brings scrutiny Nina doesn’t want, as she’s concerned it will shine a light on her secret job – providing unofficial, illegal abortions and reproductive care to women in poorer villages, in their homes. Writer and director Dea Kulumbegashvili joins Nuala to discuss her story and what it was like to film.Over a quarter of domestic abuse services in England and Wales are having to turn children away from vital support amid severe funding shortages, according to a new report by the Domestic Abuse Commissioner. Children were recognised as victims of domestic abuse in their own right for the first time by 2021’s Domestic Abuse Act. Nuala is joined by Nicole Jacobs, the Domestic Abuse Commissioner for England and Wales, to hear more about her report and what she wants to see happen next. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Sarah Jane Griffiths

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. What life advice would you like to pass on to your children? Remember that failure is not a sign of defeat, but an opportunity to learn and grow. What challenges would you like to prepare them for? Death is part of life and we need to talk more about it. Dear Daughter is a podcast from the BBC World Service, sharing words of wisdom from parents all over the world. This is who we are. This is what we do.

Dear Daughter, listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Good to have your company this morning. Well, 100 Days of Trump will look at how the US president's administration has affected

women so far in this term. Also, we'll take a journey through a country at the intersection of Europe and Asia, that is, Georgia. We're going to hear about the lives of women there through a powerful new film called April. It's written and directed by Dea Colombe Gashvili who will join us. And also, yes, fans of the band London Grammar are in for a treat this morning as we have the front woman Hannah Reid with us in studio. We're going to speak about her readying to hit the summer festivals and also about creativity and motherhood.

Hannah has a young child and I read that she discovered that having a child actually expanded her creativity and broadened her perspective. So I'm looking here, looking forward to hearing more about that. But also about you. Did creating a baby make you more creative in other aspects of your life? Or did it stunt your creative endeavors due to a lack of time perhaps or tiredness or whatever else a child might generate or absorb? Your story, your advice, you can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website

for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. The number is 03700 100 444. Also today, Nicole Jacobs, the domestic abuse commissioner for England and Wales, will be with us speaking about when to start teaching children about domestic abuse. But let me begin with the week marking 100 days since Donald Trump took over as President of the United States and as promised during his inauguration speech there has been plenty of change. Terrace, slashes to foreign aid and an

upturning of global diplomacy. Another change has been the number of women entering historic roles in his cabinet. For example he appointed Suzy Wiles the first female White House Chief of Staff Caroline Levitt also the youngest ever press secretary taking up that position at the age of 27. So what impact has Trump's first 100 days had on the lives of women in the United States? And what's the verdict on the performance of the women he chose to help him lead? Well, here to discuss is spokesperson for Republicans Overseas UK, Sarah Elliott, and also former chair of Democrats Abroad,

Kristin Kaplan-Wolfe. You're both very welcome to the program. Sarah, let me start with you. As you take a look back on the past 100 days, what is it that sticks out for you? Wow, well there's so much. He has definitely started at a hundred miles an hour, but to me it's the revolution of common sense has come back to America. We now have biological males out of female spaces. We now have petrochemical synthetic dyes out of our food, which is better for our children, more in line with European standards.

And we have illegal immigration and drug crossing the southern border down. So our streets are safer. Our neighborhoods are safer. And we have gas prices have dropped 30 cents per gallon. It's petrol prices for the British audience. And so, you know, people see their money going further and inflation is coming down. So, you know, I see a lot of positives in this for women. And also, as you mentioned, great women in leadership

positions. And that we'll come to them in just a moment. And of course, often women's issues are issues like the economy, for example, that Sarah has mentioned there, Kristen. But what about you, as you look back on the last 100 days, I think you can both agree on that there has definitely agree on that there has definitely been a hundred miles an hour. That I would agree. And it's been a hundred miles an hour of upheaval, chaos, and frankly, incompetence in the White House and throughout the administration. And I think the polls that are coming out on the administration's first 100 days are certainly reflecting that, where Americans are sending a very loud signal

that they may agree broadly with some of the broad strokes of the policies that the Trump administration has, but they do not agree at all with the ways in which he is going about trying to deliver those policies, including by the women in his cabinet. And by the way, if I can just comment on your intro to this, you said that there were a record numbers of women in the Trump administration's cabinet.

And in fact, I mean, if you even compare that to Joe Biden's administration, he had half of the cabinet as women. This cabinet is made up of very small number of women and none of whom are black women and only one of whom is a Latina woman. So there is a lack of diversity in the cabinet itself.

Forgive me for one second, Kristen. Sorry. Sarah, you wanted to come in there for a moment? Well, I mean, there's a Hindi woman. We have also the first female chief of staff. President Trump has had two female campaign managers. These are women in serious positions. So, you know, it's only the first 100 days as well.

Let us talk about the first ever female chief of staff and that is Suzy Wilds. What does the chief of staff do? Well, she runs the operations, the day-to-day schedule of the president and the White House. She is the power broker and she decides, she's the gatekeeper who meets with the President

and when. So what about that Kristen? That is a historic role that Suzy Wilds is in. How do you see that appointment and how it's been for the first 100 days? Well I think again that the polls would suggest that actually people think it's been chaotic and so while she has done I think a great job of keeping the Trump administration's cabinet and everyone in it aligned and sticking to the messages the reality is is that it doesn't change the implementation of the executive orders and the nature of how he is conducting his administration.

So if I can just also just comment, keep in mind, President Biden had the first ever first vice president. So the chief of staff for us is maybe a level down and why we, while it's important, it's certainly not nearly as important as what the Democrats have been able to achieve and the diversity which the Democrats brought to the White House and to the administration.

But with this role, do you see a significance, Kristin, in having a woman as a chief of staff for the first time? I think in this position, it's important that we have people who are going to honor the constitution, who are going to be a good advisor to the president at all times, who are going to challenge him, and who are going to encourage his cabinet members

to do the same. And I'm not sure, no one knows exactly what goes on behind the scenes in any of these meetings with the president. But I think that there is certainly questions around how this administration is being run and whether that rests solely with Suzy Wiles or if it extends further beyond into the cabinet and into the Trump administration's picks for people like Elon Musk, you know, that is something that remains to be discussed.

Sarah, I heard you wanted to come in. Well, I mean, if this was a Democrat administration, she'd already have her cover on Vogue magazine by now. I mean, you'd be shouting it from the rooftops. And let me tell you, we had a female vice president who could have pulled the 25th Amendment and pulled out an incompetent U.S. president, Joe Biden, and she did not do that. So now at least we have a competent U.S. president who has his faculties and a team of people who aren't hiding that. So that is a massive improvement for the United States. Kristin, do you want to respond before I move on?

I think it's just utter nonsense. I mean, I think, you know, the Trump administration's actions are on full display for the entire world to see. And, you know, certainly we are at a very big inflection point in our constitutional democracy, and it is one that should not be written off as trivial in any respect. And I feel as though that is what is happening. And especially, and again, going back to the women in the cabinet, I mean, his top AG pick, Pam Bondi, there are people in this cabinet,

they were chosen because they were deep Trump loyalists. They were effective communicators and spreading very strict Republican propaganda. And some of them themselves ran for office and were defeated by Democrats. And so they had to find a home somewhere and they found it within the Trump administration. So, you know, these people are truly loyal,

but they're loyal to the man. They're not necessarily loyal to the Constitution. And the Supreme Court has ruled against Pam Bondi's Department of Justice on numerous occasions, including at the 11th hour at one o'clock in the morning, directing her to turn around a group of immigrants that she was trying to deport because they had

not yet been given any due process in court. So, I mean, there are real problems within, you know, the attorney general's office right on through the cabinet. So let me turn back to Sarah, because I know you want to respond to that. Well, Payam Bandi was the attorney general of Florida. She's very experienced prosecutor. And so don't undermine these women just because they're loyal. They have extensive experience. Linda McMahon was the head of the Wrestling Federation. She was a part of the Small Business Administration. She ran the Small Business Administration under the first Trump. Tulsi Gabbard was the head of the DCCC. She was a Democrat. She was a US Congresswoman from Hawaii.

She was one of yours. And you know what? Because the Democratic Party is so utterly incompetent and so caught up in issues that most Americans don't care about like men and women's bathrooms, that this is exactly why she became a Republican, to be part of the revolution of common sense.

This is the most diverse Republican Party we've ever seen, the most diverse cabinet, it has a lot of depth. In fact, the Labour secretary, she's practically a Democrat, which doesn't even sit well with many Republicans. So, you know, I just think your criticisms are quite shallow. Let me turn back to you, Kristen, on that. Let's pick up on Tulsi Gabbard because she was a Democrat, as Sarah said. How do you understand, and I should say she's his director of national intelligence. What do you make of her switch to the Republican Party? How do you understand it? Well, you know, let's start with the fact that I want to just comment on Sarah's statement that these are competent women.

All of these women have held roles. But it's interesting because in the case of Tulsi Gabbard, while she had a distinguished career as a lieutenant colonel in the Army Reserve, she had never run anything part of the Democratic Party. So, you know, she, she obviously felt as though she no longer was represented by the views of the Democratic Party. And we're probably with good reason, because she went on then to attack efforts to investigate January 6, the insurrection that took place at the Capitol in 2020. She went out on the campaign trail with election deniers.

And she's bought into conspiracy theories that have been put out by foreign governments. And it was the Republican Senator Mitch McConnell who has led the Republican Party for, I think it's close to 17 years, if not longer. He is the one who in her confirmation hearing for intelligence said that she had a history of alarming judgment and therefore he voted against her. So it's not the Democrats that are

exclusively opposing these cabinet picks. It was one of the most prominent Republicans in the party for the last couple of decades. So there are a number of women that we've ran through. There are many more that are also in the cabinet. But Kristen, I want to pick up on one of the issues within Trump's 100 days that you are particularly interested in. This is the SAVE Act. Can you explain it as you understand it? You bet. So the SAVE Act is a piece of Republican legislation that has now passed the House. It's coming up for a vote in the Senate. And what the SAVE Act does is it, well, it does a number of things to try and under the banner

of election integrity, it will force women who are, people are going to have to go in and they're going to have to register for a particular form of identification to prove that they're really a citizen. And in order to do that, women are going to have to show that they are who they say they are. And that means- To be able to vote. To be able to vote and to get the registration that they will need. And that will require them to provide proof of their name.

And of course, many women's names on their birth certificates do not match the name that they currently hold as a married woman. Many women in the United States also do not have a passport. So there are a number of layers. But in addition to that, the SAVE Act also is working to require overseas voters, and that is, that's Sarah, that's me,

that's every American living overseas, to present themselves in person each and every year in order to be able to vote in an election. So they are working very hard to disenfranchise voters wherever they are located in the world and women in particular stateside. Let me throw that back over to Sarah. Is that how you see it? Well, you know, I see it as election integrity. And I'm sorry, but to get on an airplane, you need a passport. To drive a car, you need a driver's license.

Listen, I operate under my married name, but I have my legal maiden name. Yeah, it's a bit of a hassle, but you do it. I mean, I could legally change my name and everything and jump through those hoops. I mean, I don't think this is a detriment. I think this is an excuse. What about that issue that Kristen brings up, that there will be

women more likely to be disenfranchised when a democracy is trying to get a higher voter turnout, obviously, among the population to come and vote? I mean, we have to provide. I don't I don't think that's the case. I think you have to provide your ID. You have to have the right documentation to back it up. It's just a fact of humanity. If you've decided to change your name to a married name,

then you have to do the necessary legal things to justify it. It's just a fact of life. And I'm sorry if it's inconvenient for other women. Don't change your name then. But this is about election integrity. Let me go back to Kristin. Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, as we know, I mean, women who have been married for 60, 70 years, oftentimes they don't have their marriage certificate anymore. They don't have the

ability necessarily to go out and go back to the courthouses and get this documentation. And keep in mind, every state sets their own rules as to all of the documentation that's required to prove who you are when you register to vote. Kristen, Kristen, do you hear Kristen? No, you talk a lot. One at a time, one at a time please. But please, but this is, this is a, hold it for one second, Kristen go ahead finish your thought. Thank you. While Sarah would like to label this, again, as an election integrity and an inconvenience,

the reality is that for many women, it will become impossible to be able to demonstrate who they are under the new standards that the SAVE Act is requiring on them. So these are new requirements on top of old requirements that women have fulfilled successfully for many, many years. In fact, they've had the right to vote. Okay.

Kristin, Sarah, go ahead. Kristin, do you care about election integrity? Do you care that the voter rolls match the person who is coming to vote? Kristin? Sarah, I not only absolutely believe in election integrity, and in fact, that is why I opposed strongly the Trump administration's takeover of the Capitol on January 6th and has been hardening all of the individual's engaged message. If you care about election integrity, one at a time, please, or the listeners will not

be able to hear you. Kristin, hold that thought for one second. Let's just calm it down. One second, Sarah. One second, please. Kristin, finish your thoughts. Sarah, I will come to you. Yes.

And that's why, in fact, the vast majority, I think it's something like 70 or 80% of the American public also opposed the pardoning of Donald Trump's, of all the insurrectionists on January 6th. And election integrity, we have the most secure elections almost anywhere in the world, I would beg to say. And in fact, what happened in 2020 where this election lie was perpetrated, and

in fact, going back to the topic of today, the women in Trump's cabinet, many of them are election deniers. So the Republican Party has done a very good job of putting out their questions around the integrity of our election and voting systems systems when in fact there has been no voting violations at all. Let me move back to Sarah for a moment. Go ahead and we make your point. Kristin, if you care about election integrity, you have to prove your identity. And I don't know how you expect to prove one's identity without photo ID. So that means the names

have to match. So that's my only point. Kristin, let us stop for a moment. Let us stop for a moment, please, because for the And that means the names have to match. That's my only point. Listen, listen. Let us stop for a moment. Let us stop for a moment, please, because for the poor listener, they won't be able to distinguish between the three of us. I just have one more question for you, Sarah, before we finish. And that is, Manny would say that more women turn out to vote Democrat at times.

And some might say that having less women vote for Trump could be a good thing for him, a positive thing. What would you respond to that? I would respond that he won the woman's vote for the white woman's vote, the uneducated woman's vote. He made many inroads with minorities in the last election. He has no problem with women. He's surrounded by them.

He has always worked with them. If you listen to people who've worked with him in the past, they back him up and they support him to this day. So, you know, there's two sides to every coin. As we have heard, as we have heard with Sarah Elliott, who is the spokesperson for Republicans Overseas UK and from Kristin Kaplan-Wolf, former chair of Democrats Abroad. Thank you both for coming on and keeping it respectful conversation, because I know both of you feel very passionately about it, as do half and half of the United States.

Thanks both very much for coming on. If you want to get in touch with us, 84844, I'm asking about motherhood and creativity when you became a mum. Did it expand your creativity, give rise to lots of different ideas? Or was it just too much to have any more thoughts apart from when you were going to get your next little bit of sleep or feed that baby? 84844, if you'd like to get in touch, some of you have already, like Ellie. Becoming a mother has definitely made me more creative. I think parenthood makes you look inward and back at your own life

and childhood. Since being a mum I've started writing, I'm now looking at doing a creative writing MA at some point. I feel like I've got so many stories and ideas waiting to come out and that wasn't my experience pre-children at all. We do have Hannah Reid, frontwoman of London Grammar, coming on. We're going to chat about that. But before let us talk about April. This is a new film set in the country of Georgia. It tells the story of Nina, an obstetrician who faces an investigation

after she was unable to save a baby during labor. But the investigation brings scrutiny that Nina does not want as she's concerned it will shine a light on her secret job, providing unofficial illegal abortions and reproductive care to women in poorer villages. The writer and director, Dea Cullumbe Gashvili, joins me to discuss this story and also what it was like to film it. Dea, you're very welcome to the programme. Thank you very much for having me on the program.

We're delighted to have you. We first meet Nina, who is played by Ia Sukita-Sveli, speaking to a heartbroken father whose baby she was unable to save during a delivery. He's very angry. He believes it's all her fault. And it is such an incredibly tense scene to watch. We go straight into that. Where did the inspiration come from to start the story there?

Well, in general, like the inspiration for this film came from talking to the women in this region, because this is where I am from and obviously I knew a lot about our daily life there and how women of my age and who I went to high school with, like what their lives are made of. But then I was also working there on my first feature film which is called Beginning and and I was working with children and all of them were invited to come to the casting with their mothers and then also to the set. And I used to talk to this woman every day,

and in a way, they brought me the story of the film. But I didn't want to make a film about just one patient and just one woman who needed abortion care, but I wanted to make a film about just one patient and just one woman who needed abortion care, but I wanted to make a film about a doctor and to go through not just one instance or one example, but through several women and to also question that or show the dilemma of this professional. So everything that happens within this film happened to different women or different doctors. It's like an amalgamation. And I would call this film a punch to the gut.

It's explicit, it's graphic, it details such difficult situations that women are in, in Eastern Georgia. Is that what you set out to do? Do you want the viewer to be devastated at times? Well, at least I wanted the viewer to be emotionally involved and to empathize and to really go on this journey with Nina because I do believe that despite the film being set in a very specific place, I think it does resonate with many women all around the world. And to me, cinema is something which allows, it's a medium that allows us to really question our own realities as well

and in our own position in life. I think that's a good way of putting it, because at parts the film is almost dreamlike or nightmarish at times and some scenes incredibly beautiful Georgian countryside or landscape. But you do throw us in really quickly, very early on in the film, to include the footage of a real live birth, even though this is a fictionalized film. Tell me a little bit about your decision to do that. Well, because when I started to work on a film, I spent a year in the maternity clinic because I was researching about what it was, what the daily life of a doctor would be in

such a small town. And I started to meet women who would come to register their pregnancies. And in a way, I started to follow their pregnancies. And gradually, we started to talk that perhaps it would be possible to film live birth. And in a way, it was a dream of mine to have it in a film because I believe that I'm making films about female experience and our being in this world. And then when I was offered this opportunity, I gladly accepted it. But then it took us another six months to prepare actually, because it's not technically

anything. And... Oh Oh my goodness, it's such a different view because it's kind of a bird's eye view that you're seeing as well. I mean, I've watched lots of birthing videos but this is something completely different and I think it does. You are emotionally involved as a viewer. I think that's completely right there. But we do move with Nina, you know, delivering babies to also finding out that she provides abortions to women in villages that are done outside of a

medical setting, outside of the legal requirements that are in Georgia. I know there's been changes in Georgia recently that it's mandatory for women to go to counseling with an OBGYN, a social worker and a psychologist prior to obtaining an abortion. And there's a five day reflection period also required and that is even if the termination is before 12 weeks. But it is such a divisive topic, abortion, including in Georgia where there can be very religious or sometimes conservative attitudes. Why did you want to tackle it?

Well, to me, it's really important. Like we can talk like it was really interesting to to listen to also as a guest, because I guess like to me, for me, like because I grew up in a countryside in Georgia, and I know that like by the time I was in ninth grade and I was 15, maybe that I had like two other girl classmates because most of them were married and those were like forced or arranged marriages or I mean, I don't think we're in the position to make like, you know, any rational judgment at that age. And I guess like our reproductive health and the abortion rights really are also like our rights to have education and to be able to make other choices related to our future.

And in Georgia, like at the moment, it's true. Like women rights are really, like not in a very good position condition because they are being diminished almost every day. And I guess Georgian government sees it as one of the ways of control and I don't know, maybe being in power forever. I don't know what's their plan at the moment, but it doesn't look very hopeful. And Georgian Dream is the political party that is there at the moment that has secured their victory.

We did ask for a statement from the government in relation to health care, but they declined to provide a statement at this point. But it's not just about... I'm not surprised actually. You're not surprised by that? Because? But it's not just about... I'm not surprised actually. You're not surprised by that? Because? Because for Georgia and government or like in Georgia, this film does not exist basically because am or like how this film is even related to Georgian reality.

It's almost like a work of truly like my invention in a way. And we cannot screen the film. We cannot show it in any theaters. It cannot have any distribution. And I don't know what officially censorship means if it's not when you just can't show the film in your own country. And how does that feel to not be able to show it there? Well, because Georgia has this like past, which was a Soviet past, I do believe that things change and governments change.

And even such like, you know, governments which were like regimes, which was the Soviet Union. And I do believe that at some point we'll be able to show the film in Georgia as well. Of course, it would be important to show it now and to participate in a dialogue regarding women's rights. But sadly, Georgia maybe now, right now is not in the place when we even can talk about this openly, because we're really dealing with our daily being and like really very basic freedoms. I mean, that comes across in the film, the secrecy and stigma, shame, taboo. And we mentioned abortion, which is one of the threads going through the film. But not only there is also very much about underage marriage, for example,

or forced marriage that you've described and contraception and the lack of access to it, which is so slow moving. It's almost in real time, which I think really draws the viewer in, but there is low access to contraception in the country. Well, yes, it is low access. It's almost no access to contraception. It's definitely not covered by any kind of state insurance. And by the way, abortion, even when it's done because of the medical need and medical emergency, it's still

not covered by the state insurance. So it's kind of, and for contraception, it's almost impossible to buy or like any of it in the smaller towns or not to say anything about villages because other than it being a stigma, it also it's kind of like female body. It's not something which belongs to us, but it's rather like once a woman gets married, it's not up to you anymore when you want to get pregnant. It's your obligation basically.

Yeah, I found your film very, very powerful. I'm going to speak to Hannah Reid in a moment about motherhood and creativity. She's the front woman of London Grammar. She's just come into our studio. But I know that you became a mother not long after filming the live birth scene, in fact, for your film. And I'm just wondering how you feel about creativity and motherhood. Well, first of all, I just want to say that like my

child, because he was born when I wanted to have a child and when I wanted to become a mother, I was not just like ready, I was also like able to give him something which I already cultivated like through my like past life and I don't know, he just made me understand even better how much it means to fight for children's rights in Georgia and I just want to talk maybe a bit how education is a terrible issue in Georgia right now. And I had plans about maybe opening a media center

in the villages where I made the film. But at the moment, that's not possible either. But I really want to dedicate more time to, I don't know, to making this world a bit of better place, actually, for all children. And showing, of course, your vision through your films. Dea Colombe Gagashvili, thank you so much for joining us. Your new film, April, is in UK cinemas. What life advice would you like to pass on to your children?

Remember that failure is not a sign of defeat but an opportunity to learn and grow. What challenges would you like to prepare them for? Death is part of life and we need to talk more about it. Dear Daughter is a podcast from the BBC World Service sharing words of wisdom from parents all over the world. This is who we are, this is what we do. Dear Daughter, listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Lots of you getting in touch by creativity and motherhood.

Let me see. Emily, I packed up my art studio a few months after my first child was born. I just can't justify getting another studio now, as with two young children, I don't have time to go there. All my creativity has been diverted into cooking and toddler play. For me, artistic creativity is the antithesis to parenthood. The practicality and pragmatism blocks the freedom I need. Exclamation point. Hannah Reid, welcome to our program.

Hello. Hello. So nice to be here. Thank you for having me. So nice to have you. She is, of course, the unmistakable voice of the band London Grammar. It's such a unique sound. Lovely to hear your spoken voice as well. She has the soaring vocals that we're used to. They have three previous critically acclaimed albums under their belt. They recently just finished touring their fourth album, The Greatest Love,

and about to kick off a summer of European festival dates, but we managed to grab Hannah in the middle of all of that. Let us listen to a little taster of what fans will get in the coming months. Hey now, Strong and The Greatest Love, the title track from the new album. Let us start with that, The Greatest Love. What does it refer to? I think it refers, well I think for me now it actually refers to something different. I think as a lyricist what's quite nice for me is that my lyrics can take on a new meaning as my life goes on. I think at the time when we were making the record, it was about self-love.

And there were kind of a lot of religious references, to be honest, even though I'm not a religious person, but it was about, you know, what is the greatest love basically for you? And if you can find that, you can channel that out to other people in your life. You heard a little perhaps of the comments that have been coming in about motherhood and creativity because you became a mother recently congratulations. Thank you. How has it been? Being a mum and being a pop star and touring and all these great things. Where do I begin? You know, it's funny because when I was pregnant, my bandmate has two kids. And he's always very, very respectful of me. He never wants to like patronise me or I can be quite strong-willed,

especially when it comes to the band and our music. You're a front woman, you gotta be. Yeah exactly, you have to be. And I was like, oh yeah, it'll be totally fine, I'll just have the baby, you know, we'll have six months off, play Glastonbury and then go on tour and it will be fine. And he was like, are you sure? And I was like, yeah I'm sure. And he kept on saying, are you sure, sure? And I was like, it'll be completely fine. And I think like, until you go through it, you just don't know what it's going to be like. And yeah, I wouldn't recommend touring with a nine month old baby. It wasn't the easiest thing I've ever done. How did you do it? So my partner had to come. Yes. That's what we

realized really really quickly just because Josh, our son, was so young he was really dependent on both of us and it kind of had to be me or him. So my partner was very supportive obviously and came and I think the way that I got through it and this is one thing about motherhood that really actually surprised me that I never could have sort of foreseen happening is it put a lot of things into perspective for me. So a lot of things that would have made me very, very, very anxious 10 years ago actually don't make me anxious at all anymore. Can you give me an example?

Well, I think going on stage in general in front of thousands of people, I quite famously had terrible stage fright, which I still do have. Like obviously I still get really nervous, but there was something about the process of becoming a mum where I think it just put something into perspective where I'm kind of on stage and I'm like well the only thing that really matters is my health and the health of my son and my family and it actually

enabled me to kind of enjoy the shows in a way that I think when I was 24 if I'm really honest I'm not sure if I really was enjoying myself. So thank God for that because if it wasn't for that, I think I would have found it even harder than it was. But yeah, I mean, it was tricky. Like a survivor warrior mentality is what I'm hearing from you on stage after you become a mum. Yeah. And I think as well, there's a certain vulnerability that came with becoming a mother that I think a lot of my girlfriends and I have spoken about, which another thing that kind of surprised

me was the strength that came from that. And I've actually built a career off vulnerability. That's literally what I do is I have to make myself vulnerable to write the songs, the music. That's what people connect to, I think, when I sing. There's always like crying people in the front row. And there were moments, I think, postpartum where I was a bit like, I'm so vulnerable right now. Can I actually physically and mentally do this at all? I'm really, really not sure. But again, I kind of found more strength than I thought in that vulnerability, and I kind of have this new openness

with my vulnerability in a way that I didn't have before. It's so interesting, yeah, because you have to, obviously as a performer, give a lot for yourself as well. And to be in a vulnerable state and be able to give is a powerful image actually. Yeah, I will say the one real conflict I do find is what I think one of the listeners wrote in and said is there's been much more of a conflict for me in the creative process because I would say that what my job actually is now, like what I'm an expert in, is holding on to a creative process kind of

the beginning, the middle and end. That could take a couple of years. And doing it the same way? Because some creative artists, you know, I'm trying to think, you have to get up at 5 a or you sleep until 10am, whatever, but you have a way that you do it or you ready up over a certain amount of weeks so that you have to be eating a certain thing or not, or being immersed in certain art or, you know what I mean, being prescriptive about it. Yes, so I have a lot less of that time. Yeah.

And that does have a bit of an impact. A lot of my creative energy I now am finding is going towards my son. It's interesting. It's kind of a similar process in a way for me. I'm like motherhood is going to be one long creative process basically, but it means that I have less time kind of lying around thinking. Which and I do think like in some of my past relationships maybe or some friends like sometimes it would look like maybe I was doing nothing but I'm like I'm never doing nothing it's like you know I'll be relaxing and feeding my brain to then go and write those songs whereas now I don't have as much of that time it's like changing nappies and so I'm wondering does the inspiration strike at

that point or do you have to make space for it? I have to make more planned space for it. Yeah. And I'm very, very, very lucky that I have such amazing bandmates because what I'm really good at doing now is if an idea comes in, I might just, okay, I don't necessarily go into the studio instantly and record it and slave away over it like maybe I would used to, but I can send like a voice note to one of my bandmates and it kind of is a bit more flexible like that now. Lots of people getting in touch that were inspired by you. Sissy, before having kids I worked in fashion but on the business side it wasn't until both my kids were in nursery that I had time to reflect on my life and figure out exactly what I wanted from it.

Since October I now have a company making wood and silk felt clothing. After I drop the kids off at school I go straight into my studio and create with so much energy knowing I have to pick some up and get it at three. So I feel I'm the happiest I've ever been. How lovely is that? That's amazing. So I feel I'm the happiest I've ever been. How lovely is that? That's amazing. You're headlining the brand new Lydia Festival in London this summer. Yes. What can we expect? You can expect some great acts. We've got the Blessed Madonna, Celeste, Roisin Murphy. Yeah, incredible artist. And what I hope is you can see a lot of vulnerability, women being really strong and making themselves vulnerable at the same time.

And quite like we spent years now refining our show and it's quite high energy. And it's yeah, should be good. I'm so interested in the three of you as a band as well, because I was reading you're not doing the social media thing. No. I've tried. I mean I don't know how anyone does that I think that's the other thing that now I really don't have time for because that in itself is like a whole other job. Was it a conscious decision? No, I think it came from a place of us maybe just not being very good at it. I think anytime we tried to do social media, I think the three of us are quite, I mean, we have a great bond between the three of us, but there were definitely in our early career,

there were a few moments where we got taken aside for some media training because I just don't think we interviewed very well. So things like that. Well, you've obviously improved incredibly. Oh, thank you. Thank you. But the social media thing just, you know, I don't have an answer. We're just not that. And your relationship, because social media, right, what does it do?

It amplifies your presence online. It feeds the beast in a way and can make you, and I put this in in Virgil Kama's, more famous. So yeah, what's your relationship to fame? I don't feel famous at all. I have a completely ordinary life with wonderful friends that I've grown up with since I was young and I think again, anytime we try to step too much into that world, it just doesn't really work for us as a band and I don't know why. I can't force myself. I mean there are parts of it that are really fun, especially when we were like in our early 20s and you know, things can blow your way.

I'm sure after parties and people cry, well crying in the front row is still quite good, right? As you say. Yeah, exactly. With some people that are there. But it's, I don't know how we managed to pull it off because when we played Glastonbury, which was pretty much my first show back after becoming a mum. What a show to pick. Yes, again, not the easiest moment of my career, but kind of turned out to be one of the highlights. But I think we had like record numbers of people come to that stage and all without the baggage of the fame thing or the social media thing.

And I think we just try and focus on the music. Well, it's obviously working for you. Now, there was while you were on tour recently, I think you might have mentioned, you know, these throwaway comments that album five is brewing, is it? Oh, always, yeah. I think we're unstoppable now, really.

And the three of us are more excited than ever to get back into the studio together and be like, we're going to turn into a really traditional proper band and just write the music all in a room together and the ideas are starting to flow. Yeah. That's great. And I was wondering London Grammar, why it was called London Grammar, because you guys are't London. Me and Dan grew up in London, but why was it? I think it's because our first ever show, we needed a name. And we thought London's cool, but it can't just be London because that's weird. And then it, I want to say Dan like saw something on the internet or something and it was like

London Grammar and we just literally picked it because we just had to have a name for this gig. And I think this was before Dot actually even joined us and then that's it. We were London Grammar. But for years people like you need to change your name. Like it's a terrible name. It's not changing. The band is London Grammar, the front woman is Hannah Reid who has come in to talk to us about all

things creative. Best of luck for the whole summer festival season. Have an absolute ball. Thank you so much. Enjoy it all. Thank you very much for coming into us. Okay another one. I work as an art therapist and being my very lively son forced me to play play play and watch the stages of artistic and cognitive development closely. Together we created lots of games that also helped us relax together. It's a wonderful messy playtime. I still 31 years on teach the methods that we evolved. Well keep them coming 84844. I want to turn to domestic abuse next. Over a quarter of domestic abuse

services in England and Wales are having to turn children away from vital support amid severe funding shortages, according to a new report by the Domestic Abuse Commissioner. In 2021, the Domestic Abuse Act recognised children for the first time as victims of domestic abuse in their own right, that was in England and Wales. However, the Commissioner's report has revealed that the response to children experienced domestic abuse has so far failed to meet this recognition. I'm joined this morning by Nicole Jacobs, the Domestic Abuse Commissioner for England and Wales. Welcome to the programme. Good morning. Now, why did you commission this report?

Well, as you said, it was a huge step forward when the Domestic Abuse Act in its definition defined children as victims in their own right. But the trouble with that has been is a lack of foresight or planning implementation. What does that mean for schools, social workers, all of the services that are put in place to support children and provide those bridges to vital specialist support. And what my report shows is that we're kind of failing on all counts, and in particular, the specialist support services for children. So what are they exactly?

The support services for children are the kinds of places where, you know, a child who's been growing up in a home where there's that fear, if you can imagine what that feels to a child when they have their primary caregiver abused, their environment is controlled, isolated, often not wanting to have friends over, you know, sleepless nights. I was just at a parliamentary event this morning launching this report where a service, one of these vital services talked about supporting children who were selectively mute because of the trauma, unable to speak about that or anything else.

These are really life-saving services. And what I am here to say, sadly, is that not only do we not have them across England and Wales full scale, the ones that do exist are really suffering. A fourth, as you said, are having to turn children away. A fourth are saying to me that they have had to curtail services half have waiting lists. I mean, this is just not good enough for these children who desperately need our support now. We do have a statement from the government spokesperson that says, this government inherited a system that's failing to meet the needs of the country's most vulnerable children.

We welcome this report that puts a spotlight on this important issue. We're introducing the biggest piece of safeguarding legislation in a generation, including improved information sharing between agencies by expanding multi-agency protection teams and more widely are taking action to have violence against women and girls in a decade. They say as part of our plan for change, that's the name of it. We are also doubling council funding to over £500 million for early intervention. So tens of thousands of families approaching crisis get better support

from family help workers to stop problems from escalating and to help ensure children are in safe loving homes. Is that enough? I welcome all of that and and you know Minister Davie was at my report launch this morning saying many of those things and I champion the government wanting to have violence against women and girls in a decade, all of that legislation, the kind of planning afoot. But that is exactly why I'm publishing this report right now, because the powers of the Domestic Abuse Act allow me to make recommendations that must be responded to within 56 days. And what I would really want your listeners to understand is that this is a really critical

time in government when these decisions are afoot. How much money are we spending? What will the spending review do and the strategies of government do to really make these changes? Critical critical decisions are being made, you know, in this window. And it's, it feels, if these recommendations are not acted on now, they'll, it'll be very, very hard to do that going forward, because plans will be kind of solidified. And when the response needs to come in within 56 days, is what is that response? Is it a, like a statement? Is it concrete action? What is necessary by law?

It is. I mean, this is I'm thankful that the Domestic Abuse Act, which created my role, has equipped me with these powers because there was a recognition across all of parliamentarians that we don't tend to move forward on these issues quickly enough. So the 56 days will be on the response will be on the gov.uk website. It's there for all of the public to see. And in it you'll see the response to each. I'm making 66 recommendations today. I know that is a lot.

But the thing is there's a lot to do for children. Children really and truly are being failed in terms of the response they need in the here and the now. We have 800,000 children last year alone who have been growing up in homes in an environment where they're suffering domestic abuse. We have to make good on our promises to them in the Domestic Abuse Act and offer them something very concrete, not only just for the parents, which of course we need those services to, but we need something for children.

And the whole of this report is underpinned by the voices of children who have said to me – and there's a Tell Nicole report we're publishing alongside today, which has said, please, we need something bespoke to us, something specific for us. It's wonderful to help people around us, but we need help ourselves. Because I was struck with a line in one of the newspapers today, Commissioner, that said you were calling for children to be taught about domestic abuse, perhaps at an age earlier than we're comfortable with. What is it now? What are you calling for? Well, the government has set out, and the previous government set out as mandatory,

age-appropriate relationship and sex education PSHE modules. So that's all in Sex Education PSHE module. So that's all set out in a very age-appropriate way, going through primary and secondary school. But here is the problem. We haven't and government hasn't really underscored the implementation of what that is. So what does good look like? Schools are often left with, you know, minimal guidance. Many schools, for this report, I, I, we ran focus groups with hundreds and hundreds of teachers and

schools in England and in Wales, in fact, where they have some provision that is a little bit more comprehensive. But really and truly what the teacher said is we struggle with this, we want to do a good job, but we struggle to make, to really understand the expert advice out there. And so my recommendations are geared towards what can government do that helps make this clearer much more of a confident approach that schools can take. And also there's some really amazing experts and charities who do go into schools, but the trouble with that is it is wonderful to see, but it's haphazard. And we could do so much better with leadership within government to say if this is happening in schools, age

appropriate, of course, but if we are expecting this to happen in schools, we have to also help schools get this right. What is your top priority that you'd like to get across to the government today? My top priority is very much about listening to the voices of children, integrating throughout all departments that children need to be considered. We're often treating children and domestic abuse as an afterthought. And, you know, there's lots of evidence in this report about how, you know, for many, many

years this is not a party political issue. For many years and many governments have said that they want to support children and haven't. We have little to no services, specialist domestic abuse services for children. And that's partly because they've never been planned for in spending reviews, in strategies. They've never been committed to, planned for, rolled out in a strategic way. And this government, and I do believe them when I hear the ambition, but we now are at a stage where we need to see what the action is. What are the commitments?

What is going to happen to really change the lives of children who are suffering domestic abuse? It's a pretty high prevalence rate, I'm afraid, and we really need to do our part to make sure that provision is equal across all parts of England and Wales. Thank you very much for speaking to us. You do expect a response, as mentioned within 56 days to what you you've heard on the programme today, you can, of course, find links to support on the BBC Action Line website. I also want to thank you for all your messages coming in on motherhood and creativity. Here is another one. I realised when I found myself crying over collapsed chocolate

galleon cake for my daughter's birthday, I needed another creative outlet. I went on to take a fine art degree and an MA in children's book illustration. Although my three kids are still my most treasured things I've ever made, my creative life kept me sane throughout the madness of motherhood. I will be back with you tomorrow. We'll be hearing from Frances Ryan, the award winning Gargent journalist, and she has a new book called Who Wants Normal? The Disabled Girl's Guide to Life. We'll talk then.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. currently from BBC Radio 4, presents documentaries that bring you closer to the heart of the story and go beyond the headlines. From undiscovered truths and hidden stories to the biggest issues of the day, we go further and unravel the untold. Well let's talk about borrowing costs and whether the Chancellor has a problem. The UK's national debt has risen dramatically but how worried should we be? Two dramatic moments that reveal how the world really works. We bring you the stories from those closest to them. It all felt so ominous how this vast machine built of metal by human hands could be broken by a simple collision with a bird.

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