Woman's Hour - London Hughes; Motherhood when you have an inherited condition; Helen Thorn; Stalking; Sunisa Lee

Episode Date: July 30, 2021

Since moving to the US last year, the British stand-up comic, actor, writer and presenter London Hughes is making it big. Her stand up special To Catch A D*ck - originally performed at the Edinburgh Fringe - has been adapted for TV and is streaming globally on Netflix. She’s also one of the hosts of Netflix's weekly chat show Afterparty and a new comedy Hot Mess is set to follow with Universal. Her success in the US comes not long after she spoke out about the lack of opportunities in the UK given to black female comic talent to shine. She speaks to Anita from LA. Has the pandemic contributed to an increase in stalking? The number of stalking and harassment offences rose by 28 per cent in the year to March 2021, according to the Office for National Statistics. The Suzy Lamplugh Trust say that half of the one hundred and eleven stalking victims they surveyed, had experienced an increase in the behaviour either online or offline during Covid lockdowns. Anita is joined by their Chief Executive Suky Bhaker to discuss.It is estimated that 1 in 25 children is affected by a genetic disorder in the UK - this can range from mild to life-threatening. For the women living with an inherited condition, pursuing motherhood can be a scary and challenging process. We speak to two women about their own experiences, the support they received, and advice for other soon-to-be parents in a similar position. Carlie lives with Cystic Fibrosis and has a young son. Francesca has Sickle Cell and two young daughters.Gymnastics have been at the centre of coverage of this Olympics after Simone Biles withdrew from a number of events citing issues with her mental health. She's been cheering her team mates on from the side lines, including Sunisa Lee who won the gymnastics individual all round gold medal yesterday. Anita finds out more about Lee, the 18-year-old daughter of refugees who fled Laos for the US at end of the Vietnam war, with the Telegraph's Women's Sports Reporter Molly McElwee.Just a few days before the national lockdown in March 2020 Helen Thorn’s life imploded. The comedian - you might know her as half of the Scummy Mummies duo - found out her husband had been unfaithful. She tells us how she navigated the heartbreak, divorce and single parenthood with home-schooling, enforced social isolation and only being able to leave your house once a day for exercise. Her book ‘Get Divorced, Be Happy’ details her first year of separation.Image credit: Ryan Pfluger

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Morning, we've made it to another Friday. Divorce. That word conjures up so many emotions. Anger, fear, envy, rage, shame and maybe for some of you, joy, elation, celebration, freedom, depending at what stage in the process you're at. Well, Helen Thorne is joining me this morning to talk to me about her new book, Get Divorced, Be Happy. She split up from her husband at the beginning of the pandemic and has navigated through the various stages of getting divorced

and written a very funny and moving memoir about the experience and the things that got her through the most turbulent year of her life. Well, I'd like to hear from you this morning. Have you gone through it? Are you in the process of divorcing? What or who has helped you? And what advice would you give to other people? Or maybe it's still a huge taboo in your culture or your family and you feel pressurized to stay married whatever you would like to talk to me about this morning and share with me i'd love to hear from you you can text me on woman's hour on 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rates you can also contact us via social media it's at bbc woman's hour and you can email us through our

website it just heads the website and if you've got any questions for helen i will put them to her a little bit later. Now, whenever we talk about gymnastics, it's usually one name that's mentioned, Simone Biles. Well, now there's a new name up there, her American teammate, Sunisa Lee, who won gold in Tokyo and wowed the audiences and the judges. We'll be finding out a little bit more about her.

And I have a very frank and funny conversation this morning with comedian London Hughes about her. And I have a very frank and funny conversation this morning with comedian London Hughes about her Netflix show bringing her real life sexual exploits to the world, about meeting Kevin Hart and packing her bags and leaving the UK after constant rejection to make a very successful career in America. Then we talked to two women about inherited genetic disorders and having their own children at the risk of passing on the gene and stalking. There's only a 0.1% conviction rate for this crime. We're finding out why it is so low.

All of that, and on top of it all, you. Do drop me a text about anything you'd like to share your thoughts on. It's 84844. But first, since moving to the USA just over a year ago, the British stand-up comic, actor, writer and presenter London Hughes is making waves. Her stand-up special is about sex, and that's reflected in the very explicit title, To Catch a Dick. It was originally performed at the Edinburgh Fringe

and has now been adapted for TV and is streaming globally on Netflix. Well, I spoke to her earlier this morning from LA and asked her why she decided to move. There's the unofficial answer and there's the official answer. Unofficially, I decided to go to America when I was like 10. And the first black woman I saw on TV was Aunt Viv in The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. And when I was younger, because there weren't many black women on television when I was a kid I used to think that to be black and be on tv you had to be American so my thing was like oh if I want to be famous because I'm black I have to go to America so that was like sewed into my head from a very young age but then the official answer is I decided when um uh I was doing uh standup in the UK for a while. And I tried to have my own TV show eight times.

And in 2018, I pitched a show idea with me and Whoopi Goldberg. And Whoopi Goldberg said yes. And no TV channels wanted it. And that's when I went, if I can't get a TV show with me and Whoopi Goldberg off the ground, there's no business business I have no business being here and that's when I officially told my brain you've got to set your sights on America and then what happens you just pack up your bag and go well the thing is yes packed up my bag and went by myself for a little vacation and when I got there I just it just hit me I was like this

is where I'm meant to be and like I was even on holiday and I managed to get an opportunity to be on a tv show just through chance and I was like this is what happens when I come here on holiday what would happen if I came here you know really focus my energy here and um uh I wrote these youtube sketches uh because I was frustrated, again, that I hadn't had my own TV show. So I wrote like 25 YouTube sketches. And I put them on YouTube. And I starred in them. And then I put them out there. They didn't even go viral. I think one of them got like 3000 views. And randomly, a management company in LA, a woman called Chanel Hardy was was basically just on YouTube and she got stuck in a YouTube hole and she like discovered randomly my sketches and was like who is this girl

and the rest was history she flew me out to LA and signed me and yeah and that was not that long ago it was only 2018 so uh yeah it's been crazy. You were achieving. You had a level of success in the UK. You know, you were on all the panel shows. We see you around. You know, you're a name here. You also had a very successful show up in Edinburgh. And that's what Netflix got in touch with you.

Tell us about that. Because let's talk about your Netflix show. Can I say the full name or no? My dad makes me call it to catch a duck should we just call it that well let's call your show to catch a duck okay right so to catch a duck was spotted by the Kevin Hart tell us the story how it got from Edinburgh to Netflix the Edinburgh Comedy Festival came up in August 2019 and I had never really completed that festival. I'd done it before. And like, I did a show called London Hughes Superstar. It's just, nobody's realized it in 2017.

And when I tell you, nobody realized it in the hour. Literally, literally. Like it got like three stars at best. I got a hundred seat of venue and about 11 people showed up. And it was just like, it was a really fun show was an hour of stand-up and performance performance arts and there was props and it just told the story of me trying to be famous and actually make it in America actually and it was called

London Youth Superstars just nobody's realized it and that went terribly and there was a part of me that always even though I had my sights set on America there was a part of me that always even though I had my sights set on America there was a part of me that always wanted to do well in Edinburgh and so I decided to strip everything and just go do you know what I'm just going to do a stand-up show I'm going to do I'm going to say exactly what I want to say I'm going to do it for me just going to be bold and look if it works it works if it doesn't it doesn't matter I'm America, you know? So I wrote this show called To Catch a Duck. And it's basically stand-up all about my sex life, my love life, how I feel about being a woman.

It's super feminist. It's super in your face. And I just performed it at the festival. And I performed it in this tiny little room to, like, 50 people every day for a month at the festival and it was I performed it in this tiny little room to like 50 people every day for a month at the festival and it sold out next thing I knew Lenny Henry was writing about me like posting that he posted a tweet saying I want to be London Hughes when I grow up then he came to see the show Lupita Nyong'o came to see the show and I was just like what is happening and so it got so much buzz at the

festival that um I became the first black British woman to be nominated for the Edinburgh Comedy Award which famously is has been you know won by some white male greats in a British comedy there was so much buzz about it that the buzz reached America. I went to LA just for some meetings and like Netflix offered me a deal. And I was like, wow, I have a Netflix special. And then on top of that, Kevin Hart wants to produce it. And I was like, what? So I had to do the show for Kevin Hart. He flew me out to Las Vegas to meet him.

And basically he was like, I want to make you a star and he did not lie this is a fairy tale London this is a fairy tale it's brilliant and and the stand-up if anyone hasn't seen it it is great but it comes with a we did try and find a clip that we could use at 10 in the morning it is filthy it is bold bold. It's authentic. Like you say, it's unashamedly about you and your sex life. But also there's a fascinating story about how you went from Babestation to CBeebies. How does that happen in someone's life? It's when you're determined. Oh yeah, and actually, what is is babe station for anyone who doesn't know

so babe station is an adult porn channel that used to come on in the in the night in the 90s or 80s and 90s in 2000 it was like a sky channel but way in the back of sky like there's a part of sky that no one ever goes to and it was basically daytime in the daytime it was just like a flirty channel where pretty girls just spoke about dating and then in the night time those girls went home and these other girls came on and those other girls took their clothes off and put fingers in places now I weren't part of that part of Babe Station I was on Babe Station in the daytime okay I just want to stress that. I'm 20 pounds an hour. And the one thing that like presenting Babes Station

and presenting CBBC have in common is energy. Amazing. That's what you need. What do your parents think of your stand-up? Have they seen it? Oh, God. So my mum loves it. My dad has never seen it because he says there's some things a man should never know about his daughter.

And my dad's a huge British comedy fan. He's so proud of me. He couldn't be more proud. But he's just not going to watch it. Whereas my mum will quote sexual parts of the show at me over FaceTime. So very different approach. Go mum. What comedy did you grow up watching with your dad?

Basically things that an eight-year-old girl from South London shouldn't be watching or listening to. I used to listen to Round the Horn. Certain women's hour listeners will know exactly what Round the Horn is. Ah yeah, at eight years old, I could quote Round the Horn and The Goon Show.

I used to watch Dad's Army. I used to watch Only Fools and Horses, Are You Being Served, 40 Towers, basically all the classics, Keeping Up Appearances. Oh, I loved it. I loved it. But your black male role models

and comedians were all American. Yeah. Yeah. My white female and white male role models were all British, but the black ones, Bar Lenny Henry, were all American. You know, we had Ginany henry were all american you know we had

we had gina yashere on the program a few weeks ago who also famously went to america we love gina we love gina um is that what does your success out there gina's success out there the success of so many people of color who have gone from brit to America say about the British entertainment industry? Oh, it says a lot, babe. I think it says, you know, this is the thing. There's been, there's so much going on about race right now in the UK and in America, everywhere really. And when it comes to race in the entertainment industry, I think that it's just a simple fact of we are not seen as the stars by the people in charge we're just not well and I'm not just saying black people I'm saying people of color in general people talk about the fact that you know um black people are only like three percent of the country

so why should they have all these tv shows and it's like let's be clear black people are three percent of the country but they're definitely over represented in football or represented well in football and that's because football is based on skill set so like not all the time sometimes about who your dad is and who you know but a lot of the time or opportunities but a lot of time it's about skill set which shows that if you're if we're going on skill we're going to include black people in this but now entertainment doesn't go on skill when it should it should go on who's the best for the job and if it did you'd see a lot more people of color in places but it doesn't go for who's the best person for the job it goes to who's the best white person for the job and that's why black people who feel slighted by the UK industry we

go to America to see if we're good enough and And America goes, of course you are, because America works on the best person for the job. And that's honestly what I think it is. And my thing is, you know, I'm a young girl who grew up watching black people on TV in America and consistently they're still there. And black shouldn't be seen as different. We are just human beings with different skin tones

and different cultural views, some of us. But that's it. We know that you are a grafter. You wanted to be famous from day one. Yeah. You auditioned for Big Brother five times. Correct. Yes, you have.

What did you say at the beginning of this interview? You had a proposal that was rejected eight times. You even had an idea with Whoopi Goldberg that gets turned down. I said, you know, we all know who you are. Well, I do. I've followed your career. I've seen all know who you are well I do I've followed your career I've seen you on various comedy panel shows doing your thing and kind of gaining success but just how exhausting was it for that 10 I guess 10 years when you were really

trying to make a name for yourself it was do you know what it was crazy because I was in huge denial in the beginning so when I was in 2009 they had this competition called funny women where it was just a UK search for the funniest woman and female stand-up comics from all over the world entered and I was 19 when I entered and I won and I'd been doing stand-up for literally a month and I won a competition and I was like oh my god and the competition was like funded by the BBC and I was in the press and I remember like all my old interviews they were like what's next for you and I was like oh I'm gonna have my own TV show and I'm gonna write a book then I'm gonna be in movies like I just assume that you

know talent my mum and dad always told me if you work hard and you're a nice person then you'll go far so like I worked really really hard I remain a nice person surely I've won this competition surely I'm just gonna do well and I remember I started out with people like Jack Whitehall and I and me and my mum would sit and watch how like how famous Jack Whitehall got my mum would be like isn't that that guy and I'd be like yeah yeah yeah and then I did like a radio for um uh comedy sitcom that I wrote in like 2012 and it aired and it was just a pilot and I remember like not fighting but begging them to put Ramesh Ranganathan in it because I'd seen him at a gig and thought he was talented and at this point he was not a huge star that he is now and I remember being like I want him in it and I got him in it and

he did his thing he was great and my mum and dad went to watch it and then maybe like two years later Ramesh was like the biggest thing ever and my mum was like isn't the guy I was like yep and it just kept happening every guy that I pretty much knew or started around the same time as went on to be a thing and I was still coasting at the same pretty much the same level just a little bit higher but nothing crazy and um it was crazy to watch because you know I could have stayed in the UK and I could have had a perfectly averagely nice career you know I wasn't and I want to sound ungrateful you know I wasn't working a normal job I I was in television I was writing and auditioning but I was still living at my mom's

house and I was I wasn't making the money that I knew I could and I just wanted to go to America to see my my plan was to go to America and try and kick down the doors and I got to America and the door was already open and they said come in have a seat here's some green tea and now I'm here green tea I love it because she's in LA I have to say London it is has been wonderful to watch um your success even if I'm slightly envious of all your Instagram pictures of you at pool parties in LA um how has dating through the pandemic been oh god listen this is what I could just stress to you do not move to a brand new country two weeks before a global pandemic just don't it's just not how are you going to get material for your stand-up if you're

not dating so my next special was called to catch a husband and I've been like getting research and putting myself out there and you know but dating in LA is hard in a pandemic I was downloading all the dating apps but I would delete them because everyone on it is beneath me in every way and so I would get frustrated but um right now we've opened back up a bit I'm going out going to bars going to day parties they love a day party out here I'm like going to the beach and meeting boys men sorry men and it's going okay no husbands yet brilliant absolutely brilliant what's the plan what's happening next so you're working on Men, sorry, men. It's going okay. No husbands yet. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. And what's the plan?

What's happening next? So you're working on To Catch a Husband? To Catch a Husband, but that's not for a while because I need to, my standup is so authentic. I know a lot of comics, you know, they make up stories or steal stories from their friends. My thing is everything I say is a million percent true. And so when I do my next special, because To Catch a Duck was so truthful, I want to be truthful with the next special.

So I kind of don't want to perform it or pull it out there until I've been proposed to. I know it's risky, but I'm gorgeous. So I know I'll be proposed to soon. Absolutely. And world domination. Is that the plan? Yeah. So I've got movies coming up.

One's called Hot Mess. It's been made by Universal. It's loosely based on my life. And it's so exciting because we've never had, Hollywood has never had a movie based around a black British female character. It's just never happened. And watch this space. That was me talking to London Hughes a little bit early. I'm sure she'll be back on to tell us all about these movies and a brilliant project she's got going on. Dr Jenny Jones has messaged in to say loving London Hughes on Woman's Hour. Can't wait to see the Netflix special. And another message that's come in, we are talking divorce a little bit later. My experience of divorce was that an accountant is equally as important as a solicitor. And that's from Yvonne

84844 is the number to text. Now, has the pandemic contributed to an increase in stalking? The number of stalking and harassment offences rose by 28% in the year to March 2021, according to the Office of National Statistics. And the Susie Lampley Trust say that half of the 111 stalking victims they surveyed had experienced an increase in the behaviour either online or offline during COVID lockdowns. Well, I'm joined now by Suki Barker, chief executive of the Susie Lamplugh Trust, to discuss this further. Morning, Suki. How has the pandemic affected stalking? Good morning. Thank you for having us today.

We've really seen a substantial impact on victims' experience being heightened during the course of the pandemic. As you mentioned, the survey we carried out really saw an increase in not just the intensity, but the frequency of the behaviours that were being experienced. And why this is, is really for a range of behaviours. We know that the cases of domestic abuse increased during the pandemic and 50% of victims who are being stalked are being stalked by an ex-intimate partner. We've also seen an increase in cyber-stalking behaviours. We've obviously been spending a lot more time online and so we've been seeing an increase in behaviours there. We also know for those who had a propensity

towards this sort of behaviour, they may have been furloughed or lost jobs, and it's really increased that fixation and obsession, and that's had a significant impact on victims. And Victims Commissioner Dame Vera Baird said this week that mask wearing specifically may have made it harder to identify and prosecute suspects. Did your research show that at all? Our research really showed that perpetrators were using different means and different ways to continue to try to contact their victims.

It's been incredibly difficult for victims to identify their perpetrators when they've been wearing masks, difficult to carry out investigations with CCTV, being able to identify perpetrators. We know that perpetrators have used things like socially distanced behaviour. So for example, sending gifts and letters, and using excuses for things like daily exercise to carry out those stalking behaviours, such as following and monitoring the victim. So Suki, could you define stalking for us? What is stalking? I think some people might have difficulty really understanding what the crime is.

Yeah, it's very much a series of behaviours that can be taking place either online or offline. So monitoring, spying, physical contact. And it's unwanted, it's repeated, and it's underpinned by a fixation and obsession. And that's really what differentiates it from other crimes like harassment. I said in the intro that the conviction rate is 0.1%, incredibly low rates for stalking cases. How are they so low? I mean, Susie Lamptey Trust is calling for a national task group to really better understand what's happening here across the criminal justice system and why those attrition rates are so appalling. But from our research, what we have found is that victims are incredibly unhappy with the response that are getting from the police,

from the court system as well. They're simply not being taken seriously, they're not being believed. And importantly, I think incidents are being viewed in isolation. So when they're reporting to the police, police are taking that individual report of contact, the phone call, the email, rather than looking at the full pattern of behaviour and the full context. And this, coupled with delays in the criminal justice system, means that we're seeing huge attrition rates right through the system. That's really shocking to hear, really, isn't it? Why do you think they're not being believed if they're going to the police? I feel like part of it is that those behaviours are being seen as sometimes low-level behaviours.

And so the risk and the motivations of what perpetrators are actually carrying out is not being understood. And at other times, we know that perpetrators will go to extreme measures to try to contact their victims, like putting tracking devices and, as I said, monitoring them through cyber-stalking. And it feels like it's out of the realm of the possibility. But in fact, all of these behaviours are very easily carried out by new technologies. And that's some of what's contributing to victims not being believed. The government's new violence against women and girls strategy was unveiled last week. Is stalking addressed adequately in your view? Well, we welcome the intent behind

the strategy, particularly to tackle violence against women and girls within a whole systems approach. That means not just looking at the criminal justice system approach, but how specialist service like ours needs to be involved, health needs to be involved. When it comes to stalking, the detail behind that is incredibly patchy, particularly looking at things like perpetrator intervention, which we know is essential, and specialist support provision. And when it comes to funding specifically, it's incredibly piecemeal. We know that there needs to be significant investment in this area for specialist support services for victims. Well, we've got a statement from the government. A spokesperson said protecting women and girls from violence and abuse is an absolute priority for the government.

And we're taking action across the whole system to tackle these horrendous crimes. Last week, we published our new tackling violence against women and girls strategy, which details that we're tripling our funding to the Susie Lampley Trust National Stalking helpline providing 11.1 million to the police to run programmes for perpetrators of domestic abuse and stalking and working with the police to make sure that all forces make proper use of stalking protection orders. What more would you like the government to do? As I mentioned I think that funding really needs to be sustained funding and long-term funding and it needs to be accessible to specialist services. And we need to see that sustained funding for statutory services as well to ensure that the training and understanding of stalking is robust through the criminal justice system, because that's the only way that we're really going to see more victims going through the system.

And, Suki, there might be someone listening who's concerned about what's happening in their own lives, but they're also worried that people might not believe them or that, you know, there's nothing that's actually happened to them. They're just nervous about somebody following them or doing things online. What advice would you give them? You've said that the police might not take it seriously. What advice would you give somebody who's terrified at the moment? Really trust your instincts. If there's something that's making you feel

uncomfortable, please come forward. Please come forward and contact a specialist service like ours, the National Stalking Helpline. We've also got an online tool available. If you're not ready to speak to someone, it's called Am I Being Stalked? It's on our website. Stalking is a crime and you have the right to justice. And so you should be, if you can, and you're able to contact the police. We would advise you to try not to make. And so you should be, if you can, and you're able to contact the police. We would advise you to try not to make contact with a stalker if you're able to do that and really keep a log of all the incidents. Because, as I mentioned, it's that full pattern of behaviour, the full context that we're trying to capture and come forward. And please do seek help.

Suki Barker, thank you very much for speaking to us this morning. 84844 is the number to text. Now, it's estimated that one in 25 children is affected by a genetic disorder in the UK. This can range from mild to life-threatening. For the women living with an inherited condition, pursuing motherhood can be a scary and challenging process. In fact, one of somebody's just messaged into the program to say two of my three grown up children have different genetically inherited conditions. One has Marfan syndrome, the other is bipolar. They live full and dynamic lives. I'm proud of all three but can't help wishing that I hadn't passed on the genetic information that has caused them and the wider family so much pain. Well, we are going to be discussing this because I'm joined

by two women, Carly and Francesca, who both know how this feels. Good morning to both of you. I'm going to ask you both to tell us a bit about your conditions and how they impact your life. Let's start with you, Carly. I know you have cystic fibrosis. Yeah, that's right. So, yeah, I have cystic fibrosis. It pretty much affects my entire body, even though I appear outwardly to look healthy. It mainly affects my digestive system, meaning I can't digest any fats. So I take tablets every time I eat and drink. That's why I'm very slight and I very much struggle to put on weight it's been a big thing throughout my whole life um and of course my lungs I really struggle to move around mucus in my body

basically the the functions don't work so salt doesn't pass through my body so anything to like a cold in my family who people can just brush it off I can't and it usually ends up with me being put into hospital for two to three weeks at a time yeah and and how about you Francesca you have sickle cell that's right yes I suffer from sickle cell I would say similar to Carly I appear normal um on the outside um but I I have sickle cell which is a blood disorder so it affects my red blood cells so it causes me to have pain in certain parts of my body and it also affects my kidneys, I've had gallstones, I have blood transfusions, I've even had a stroke due to my sickle cell. And I've been in and out of hospital all my life since the age of four.

And it's something that I've battled with. I battle with constantly every day. And growing up, did you have conversations with your own mothers or anybody about becoming mothers yourselves? Motherhood, did this conversation ever come up? Yes, definitely. My mother also suffers from sickle cell because it is an inherited disease. So we have had conversations about it, even when it came to dating. And if you want to find a partner and have a child, you have to be aware that because I have sickle cell, if the person does have sickle cell or is even a carrier, my child could with sickle cell, I would say. It is still quite a taboo subject, especially when you're dating to just say to someone, you know, hey, I have sickle cell,

you know, it's not the easiest thing to say to someone. So I did struggle with that and it was hard, but I do commend my mum for having that discussion with me and making me aware that this is what's going to happen because for her even for having me she wasn't aware that my dad was a carrier so it was a shock for her and she didn't want the same thing to happen to me so Carly how do you do it how do you go on dates and bring up the fact that you have cystic fibrosis yeah I mean I wasn't diagnosed until I was 10 so I spent a lot of my childhood not needing them conversations just being very very poorly so to be honest I didn't think that anybody would want me. I grew up saying to my mum and my sister and my dad that I won't ever get married,

I won't get a boyfriend, I won't have children because I suppose I was just a bit embarrassed I was very different to all the other girls at school um the way I looked I didn't develop as quick as the other girls so I didn't really go on dates to be honest I didn't want to I didn't want to take tablets in front of people because I take about 70 tablets a day so I didn't want to take tablets in front of people because I take about 70 tablets a day so I didn't want to put myself in a situation where I was in front of someone who I fancied or I liked and have to explain that I had something very seriously wrong with me so I kind of hid from it and I didn't tell anybody that I had cystic fibrosis. Apart from a few friends at school and one of those friends is now my husband. So I completely skipped dating, telling people.

I just hid from it and accepted that I would watch my sister go on to have a life that is expected for a lady in society, but that I wouldn't have those opportunities. And so the man who is now your husband was a friend, so he already knew, he was already in your inner circle. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, he was the only one I felt comfortable talking to about it. And then when you decided to

get together and have a child together, presumably you had to talk about what this would mean and passing on the gene. So how did that conversation go? We made a decision really that we wasn't going to have children because I didn't want to put my child in a situation that I've lived my life and also two people with cystic fibrosis can't meet so we we have to live in isolation really um we can't even in our hospital appointments we're kept separated by doors and corridors and masks and it's very covid way of living even before covid was a thing so um we did get chris tested for the gene because if we had an accident and fell pregnant, we didn't want to be shocked. So we never really spoke about pregnancy to be honest. We just accepted that that probably wasn't going to be the path because also my life expectancy is very short.

I didn't want to put my child in a situation where he would or she would be losing their mum um but then after I was very very poorly I got pneumonia in 2013 and from there when I was in hospital they found out I was carrying a what we call a bug um in my lungs that was one of the worst bugs you can get if you've got cystic fibrosis um so I was in hospital for four weeks and then I want I went on an 18 month treatment plan to try and eradicate it and it did do that um but it also eradicated everything that was good in my body so I went down to about six stone I was very poorly I had to stop working and my periods actually stopped so I didn't think that I would fall pregnant um and a month after I finished the treatment I did

so I think he was yeah he was a little gift and a little my little miracle baby and so it was kind of taken out of my hands he was just given to me and I found myself in a situation where I, I know a hundred percent he's got the gene because I've passed it on to him. I have no choice because I have two bad genes, but luckily my husband doesn't have any genes. So Jude is just a carrier. And you'll be having a conversation about that at the right time. Yeah, I'm going to have to because it's gonna be unfortunately it's completely my fault but yes it's gonna see if it's gonna be a part of our family's lives for

the foreseeable future so he will have to get his future partner tested um and yeah I carry a lot a lot of guilt about that because it's something it's my sister to be honest is going through the exact same thing at the moment being tested she's just found out that she carries the gene from my mum and dad as well so her husband is now being tested and it's not really the fairy tale you know get married have a baby that everybody assumes it'll happen it's um planning and talking to medical staff and yeah future i'm i'm gonna bring francesca back in because i'm just interested interested to understand about a bit more about carrying the guilt francesca is that something you can relate to i can relate to

it to an extent um i do feel i did feel guilty at the time and trying because I knew that I wanted to have children. So at the time, I did feel like anxious, wondering whether my kids will be a carrier and what will happen. But on the other hand, just, just from like, like, for example, for my mother, if she was to ever say, Oh, I kind of, you know, it was hard raising you and I felt guilty having you. I wouldn't want my mom to feel that way at all. So I do try and look at the positive. Yes, it's something that I have. And, you know, my children are carriers, but I do want to help them to be strong, you know, to be able to fight it if they are, you know, when they do get to that stage, when they are dating and they want to meet someone. I don't want them to feel that pressure or that guilt. So I try to remove myself from having that pressure and that guilt and do try to have somewhat of a positive outlook.

It is hard, obviously, to do that. But I would never, just from my mum's point of view, I'd never want my mum to think, oh, it was really hard, you know, having you or anything like that. How supportive were health professionals during your pregnancy? I would say during my pregnancy, it was quite difficult because on paper um having sickle cell having blood transfusion having a stroke um you almost feel like you're written off in a way for certain things I didn't want to have a natural birth I'm I was that type of person I even though I knew I had sickle cell I still wanted to achieve certain things and do certain things as a first-time mum and for doctors to say you know for doctors to be very black and white and say no because you've

had this you can't do that there was no middle ground no um okay if you want that we can work with you kind of thing and um I felt like at times they were a bit dismissive and um uh just with certain things like giving birth with breast feed and even after I had the child and it definitely wasn't a good feeling as a first time mom you do feel anxious and you want things to go as perfect as possible but um to be looked at negatively um because especially for sickle cell in particular there isn't that much awareness not many people even know what it is or how to help someone or how to treat someone you do find that navigating through the process of being pregnant and I did come across

you know just just certain negative comments that I don't think you'll be able to do this I for example I wanted to have a natural birth and it was like no it's like no you can't that's something that you can't do and I did push through it and both my kids were natural and on paper that almost looks like something that's that's impossible something that I wouldn't or should have been have done but you know that was something that I wanted to do and I prepared myself for it and I'm glad I did. So how do you talk to your kids about it? There's there's no easy way I would say that there isn't like the right way of doing it. I would just say that I would say come at a gentle approach if that's possible.

Don't let them feel that they're too different or stigmatized or anything like that. Try and see if you can give them a choice as well so they know what they're walking into. Because with sickle cell in particular, it's a genetic disorder. However, it is the luck of the draw. Two sickle cell people could still have a child who's a carrier that's not necessarily going to suffer from the disease. So just walk into it with open eyes, I would say to my children. Be aware of all the possibilities, all the options and definitely seek help and support whilst doing it. And Carly, there is an average life expectancy with someone with cystic fibrosis.

How much do you think about the future and what do you think about the conversations you'll have with your child? I am bringing up Jude almost, I'm taking it in very small stages depending on what age he is. So he's very aware that I have CF. At the moment, he just says that my mummy has CF and it makes her cough a lot

and she takes lots and lots of tablets. So he understands completely that I'm a little bit different to his daddy. But I try not to dwell on my life expectancy too much because I think even though, yes, I'm aware that I have got something that is very serious and life expectancy is going up but it's around kind of 30 to 35 and I'm 31 at the moment um we don't actually none of us in this conversation actually know what's around the corner and just because I know that I have something wrong with me doesn't necessarily mean that I will I'll have a shorter life than than any of my friends or my family so I try not to think about it and actually I count myself as

very lucky because I know that when I am unwell I get the absolute best care from my CF team and they're there 24 hours a day seven days a week so as soon as I I know I notice something different or that I'm not well I can pick up that phone and I'm seen to immediately and I think that that is an extremely very lucky position to be in because some of some of my friends would be waiting on the phone to the doctor's surgery for hours so yeah it's not nice knowing and having that number looming over your head um but I guess I just I might have a little hint of what can make me unwell as opposed to being in the complete darkness and what advice do you wish you'd known starting out in your journey into motherhood um I wish I I wish I'd known that I was going to be

able to do it because I had no confidence in myself when Jude was born and I relied on my mum heavily um Jude was I had to go into hospital almost immediately so Jude was only four weeks old and I was put into King's completely on my own and I spent basically three weeks crying um but I wasn't a good enough mum and that I wasn't there for him um but in the grand scale scale of things I have to take that time out to look after me in order to look after him so I think I wish I'd known not to put so much pressure on myself from the early days and even though people say that they're the most important times you're never going to get this time back um that didn't really help me because I was so worried about missing every single second

that I actually didn't look after myself at all so that did more harm than good and looking after yourself is very important Carly and Francesca thank you both so much for talking to me so openly 84844 is the number to text if you'd like to message me about anything you listen to on the show today now gymnastics have been at the centre of coverage of this year's Olympics 84844 is the number to text if you'd like to message me about anything you listen to on the show today.

Now, gymnastics have been at the centre of coverage of this year's Olympics after Simone Biles withdrew from a number of events citing issues with her mental health. She's been cheering her teammates on from the sidelines, though, including Sunisa Lee, who won the gymnastics individual all-round gold medal yesterday. So we want to find out more about the 18-year-old, who's the daughter of refugees who fled Laos for the US at the end of the Vietnam War and think about how she stepped up and took the unexpected opportunity left by Biles' departure. So joining me to talk about her and a bit more about the Olympics is The Telegraph's women's sports reporter Molly McElwee.

Molly, morning. Was this as unexpected as we're being told? Did she only get this because Simone pulled out or was she a contender? Hi, morning. Thanks for having me. I think she definitely was given a big opportunity in Biles' withdrawing. Obviously, no one wanted to see Biles withdraw, but in her leaving, in her not being in contention, that gave Sunisa Lee a huge opportunity. But she's also kind of been tipped for a number of years as kind of the successor to Biles, who's dominated kind of US gymnastics

and world gymnastics for nearly a decade, about eight years. So there were definitely signs that Sunisa Lee could have made this kind of breakthrough here, especially with Biles kind of moving out of the competition. That gave her a huge opportunity, but she had to take it and she definitely did yesterday. And do you think other athletes stepped up too, given this unexpected opportunity? Because Biles is so dominant, know she is the name but all of a sudden she's gone and everyone else must be thinking right time to shine for sure I think it's true a lot of people watching for example might not have even considered looking into any of the other gymnasts that were

there but the other gymnasts that competed yesterday really stepped up it was such a thrilling competition like so close and for example uh Rebecca Andrade of Brazil she stepped up she she got silver in the end she actually qualified ahead of Sunita Lee um last weekend and for this final so she was always going to be a contender the thing is Biles was so kind of out of this world and and so far ahead of all of these gymnasts because of kind of the difficulty um that that her routines bring and it it means that kind of the marks that the scores that she's going for are kind of just far and beyond what what some of the other gymnasts can achieve but they really stepped up and I think seeing kind of such an intense competition it really went down to to the final um routine on floor um that was kind of really exciting and and I think a lot of kind of viewers can attest to that there was so much

excitement online about it as well what do we know about Sunisa Lee's background? Sunisa Lee is 18 years old, so she's the youngest gymnast on the US team, which I think is something that kind of has been forgotten in some of the conversation. This is her first Olympics and she really stepped up. But also she's of Hmong descent. She's the first Hmong American to compete for Team USA at the Olympics let alone become Olympic champion so that's a huge thing for her community. I don't know if you saw but there was kind of video cameras, television cameras at her family's kind of watch party for the Olympic deathic yesterday there were 300 people from her community all there watching her and it was incredible to see those scenes and to see kind of the

celebrations especially knowing kind of the context of the last couple of years her family um have gone through her her dad she cites as her her dad john lee she cites as her biggest inspiration he um he pushed her into the sport when she was six and gave her every opportunity to kind of succeed he built a balance beam for her when she when they couldn't afford to to have one themselves so he was a huge support to her and in 2019 he was actually paralyzed um after falling from a ladder so it's a huge kind of blow to their family and and something that she's spoken about very openly about how that affected her and how she's taken the yes shoot that he applies to his life to to kind of take inspiration towards a gymnastics career so she she's kind of her background story is really powerful and

there's it's very inspiring about her yeah very inspiring another fairy tale story and i love watching the reactions of the family those watch parties are brilliant they just bring you such joy um we have to talk about um Bethany Shriver the BMX gold medalist uh were you watching and uh she's self-funded to get to the Olympics yeah I was watching it was incredible to see her do that and like you say she's self-funded and it's kind of a huge success story and a measure of kind of everything she must have sacrificed to get there. And which which kind of other athletes who would have been completely funded throughout this whole Olympic cycle and for many years wouldn't have experience. So it's yeah, if we talk about fairy tale stories, Herd is definitely up there. Molly, thank you very much for joining us this morning. We are talking about fairy tale stories.

We've had London Hughes on, just been talking about Sunisa Lee, and now we're going to be chatting to Helen Thorne. So just a few days before the national lockdown in March 2020, Helen Thorne's life imploded. The comedian you might know as half of the Scrummy Mummies duo found out her husband had been unfaithful. Her new book, Get Divorced, Be Happy, details her first year of separation, telling us about her heartbreak, single parenthood, enforced social isolation and only being able to leave the house once a day for exercise. And lots of other details.

Helen joins me now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Absolutely loved this. Oh, well, thank you very much. Devoured it. So you found out your husband had been unfaithful and decided to separate just days before the start of the pandemic. What happened and how did you get through those first initial few days? Yeah, so it was a massive shock. I had been with my ex for nearly 22 years and met when we were 19. It was the fairy tale story. And I had no idea what was about to happen. And so I was preparing a World Book Day costume,

which is horrific in itself. And I found a love letter that wasn't from me. And so I sort of went numb and cold and just went into overdrive as you do as a mother going, okay, then, well, yes, let's get the fish fingers ready and let's wait till daddy comes home because I can have a little chat with him. And then when I saw him, I was just like, it's over, it's over. And then I just sort of went into overdrive and had to make many, many decisions.

And then two weeks later, we went into lockdown. And so I didn't have anyone to hug, anyone to hold. He was the last person I hugged. And then for three months, I just faced sadness and hurt and betrayal and anger and all the things. And there was no hiding away from it. As we all were trapped in our houses and couldn't, you know, we were faced with our own feelings. And so it was very confronting. And I loved marriage. I loved my husband. I am the daughter of a vicar.

You know, I am very much. You grew up watching weddings. I did. I did. I am a firm believer in it. You say in the book that looking back, you wanted the marriage more than the man. Yeah, I think. And I think that's very true because I worked very hard.

We did lots of couples counselling. And of course, as a mother, I wanted that family unit. And so many women have talked to me and written to me going, how can I do it? You know, I'm worried for my children. But I guess the thing I want to say is that your children need a happy mother and happiness is the most important thing, as I have discovered. And it is a divorce that I didn't want, but it's the

divorce I needed. You stayed in the family home with the kids. He got the flat nearby. You decided to split the time, five weekends with you, weekends with the dad. How did you bond and how did you heal as a family of three and homeschool and, you know, live through a pandemic? Well, it involved a lot of biscuits and a lot of TV. But no, it was actually a blessing that I had the pandemic in a way because we just had quiet time. And when the kids needed me, I was there on tap. We walked across the woods, across the road.

We cried when we needed to cry. And I think, you know, I'm a really busy comedian, often on tour and things like that. And so the fact that I didn't have any other distractions, I could sort of sit and grieve. And when the kids needed to ask me questions about things, I was there for them. So I think in a way that was really healing for us both. And I never shied away from answering any questions. And the kids asked why we got divorced and we told them. So I just didn't want any more lies. I think that's what I really wanted is honesty and, you know,

lies hurt so much more than the truth. What was the turning point from sadness to happiness? Yeah, well, there was some really great things. Like I was obviously immensely loved by friends and family from afar. I have this amazing comedy partner, Ellie, who would drop lasagnas and all sorts of things on my front doorstep and wave from two metres away. But I just remember one day I woke up and the sun was shining and I walked downstairs into the kitchen and went, this is all mine. Nobody's going to criticise me. Nobody's going to go, not pasta again for dinner.

You know, things like that. And I just went, oh, my God, I've got this blank canvas ahead of me. I'm happy. You know, I've got two beautiful children. I'm loved by my friends. And this is this amazing opportunity that I just didn't know was out there. One of the themes that runs through the books that I absolutely loved is friendship. Yeah. is friendship yeah and you really get a sense that you were held swaddled comforted by your

female friends in Australia here and and dude Ellie we've got to talk about dude oh my god so what is the importance just talk about the importance of your female friendships through this period yeah I really wanted it's sort of like a love letter. It was the love letter that ended my marriage, but the book is a love letter to all the women in my life. And people just dropped everything and said, what can I do for you? And I think one of the hardest things we do as women is saying, I can't cope. I need help. And someone said, what do you need? I said, just put some cigarettes and a chocolate Easter egg on my doorstep and they did that and it was amazing but but they listened and and I probably repeated the same things and said the same swears over and over again to them but they said no you're not okay Helen you're not and and I just

just knowing that you're loved and I just thought gosh you know he was only one person in my life and then to get him out of the way it sort of of cleared the path. I go, I'm so loved and so supported. And, you know, apart from, you know, a bit of the good stuff, occasionally women give me everything else. You know, it's great. Yes. Like you say, lasagna's on your doorstep. Yeah, absolutely. We've had a message, lots of people messaging in about this. Charlie in Bristol says, I think anyone who survives a divorce should get a medal or a certificate. Absolutely. No one tells you how hard it is. My advice would be to surround yourself with people who've been through it and to hold on to the fact that it won't always feel this bad i wouldn't have believed that i

could recover but i have and i'm 53 i've married again i never thought i'd want to be married again but i've been fortunate enough to meet the most amazing man and it was me who proposed to him so hold on to hope this time will pass yes that's exactly what your book is about yeah and i just remember a friend holly picked me up about your book is about yeah and I just remember a friend Holly picked me up about five days after it happened and she just said look it's really really really bad at the moment she used other words um but it will get better and it will be better than you've ever imagined and just remember that and I think I don't shy away from the fact that it is horrible and you're broken but as you slowly piece yourself back together again you feel

stronger than you've ever been. And what I love throughout the book, you know, it's your memoir, but you've also spoken to other incredible women to get advice and important advice, expert advice, like financial experts and the barrister. What did the barrister say to you?

Oh, I love this. The barrister said, whatever you do, stay out of court, which I just thought was amazing, coming from a barrister. But she said look you know court is not a court of morals and I go but he did this and this and this and she said the court doesn't care the court does not care stay out of court it will cost it'll cost money and it will cost time and yeah so I went down the mediation route but I've got lots of sort of really nuggety good information and amazing women littered through the book who just, you know, who I was very privileged to be able to contact. And that's what I want to give back to all the women.

And I'm hopeful that men will read this book as well. Yeah. I mean, it's just useful for anybody going through it. And then financial advice, because you said that in the 20 odd years that you were married, you'd never really thought about your thought about your own finances yeah no I put my hand up and say I'm a terrible feminist when it comes to money and and also that I was sort of promised like don't you don't have to worry about you'll be looked after and I feel quite embarrassed that I haven't done that but there's some really good um practical advice about budgeting and pensions and all those sort of things that suddenly you just have to face you know I think that's that's it and it's not as

scary as as everyone thinks it is and you, you know, yes, there's some admin and divorce, but goodness me, the payoff is amazing. Well, yes, because the book then talks about this wonderful sexual awakening that you have. Oh, my goodness me, Anita. I mean, you know, we talked about everything this morning. We might as well go there. Oh, my God. Within no details, don't you? No, no, no, no. All i'm saying is i'm having a very very nice time with lots and lots of different men and and i'm very safe and um but gosh it's oh isn't it wonderful i'm having a lovely time in the nude um so yes i'm having a great time and i've just really don't want a boyfriend but i'm i'm i'm rediscovering things

about myself that i didn't know. And I haven't dated since I was 19. So I'm getting into all sorts, really. Yeah, it's a very entertaining read. Would you change anything about the past year? Yes, just one thing. It was I went in a hot tub in August last year and I got a massive eye infection. So I looked like the hunchback of Notre Dame for about two months. I had this big puffy eye, which obviously hindered my dating prospects.

So I had an eye patch, but it didn't stop me, Anita. I just advise you pick up the book and read about it for yourself. Helen, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much. It's called Get Divorced, Be Happy, and it came out yesterday. Excellent. Now, earlier in the programme, we were talking about genetically inherited conditions

and the effect they can have on motherhood. Thanks for the tweet clarifying that bipolar is not genetic. There are also links to help and support through our website. Have a lovely weekend. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello there.

I'm Simon Armitage. I'm just heading down the garden path, so this might be a good moment to tell you about the new series of my Radio 4 podcast, The Poet Laureate Has Gone to His Shed. This shed, actually. And the shed's been quite a lonely place

this past year, for fairly obvious reasons. So, it's great to be able to plump up the plastic cushions, set up an extra fold-away chair, and natter about life and creativity with talented and thoughtful people. Guests include the Yorkshire Shepherdess Amanda Owen, broadcaster, DJ and gardener Joe Wiley,

and Smith's guitarist Johnny Marr. Put your ear to one of the many knotholes in the wall by searching for The Poet Laureate Has Gone to His Shed on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most

complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know it was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.