Woman's Hour - Loneliness, Lucy Calcines, Nicole Travolta, Kids at risk

Episode Date: August 3, 2023

All this week on the programme we are looking at the topic of loneliness. Women are statistically more likely to be lonely and so in today's programme we will look at ways to cope with those feelings and if it's possible to reframe them. Anita is joined by Radio 4's All in the Mind presenter Claudia Hammond and author of Alonement, Francesca Specter. The comedian Nicole Travolta is taking her one-woman show Doing Alright to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. It chronicles her life as a compulsive shopper, how she freed herself from debt, shame and the weight of a famous last name, one spray tan at a time. When she is not dressed up in a wig doing impressions, she can also be found performing comedy around LA. The children’s charity NSPCC says that its Helpline received over one thousand contacts last year about children experiencing coercive and controlling behaviour, a form of domestic abuse. The school summer holidays can be a particularly difficult time for some of these children. If you are worried about someone, what should you do? Anita is joined by Paddi Vint, Development Manager for the NSPCC and a woman we call Margaret, who experienced coercive control in a previous relationship. The Cuban-Spanish singer-songwriter Lucy Calcines joins Anita to sing live, ahead of her headline performance at the UK’s largest Latin music and dance festival this weekend. She shot to fame after her appearance on the Voice TV show in 2020, when she achieved a four chair turn by superstar coaches Meghan Trainor, Sir Tom Jones, Olly Murs and will.i.am. Anita will also be joined by the festival organiser, Amaranta Wright, to talk about all things Latin.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Bob Nettles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Don't have my dungarees on today. The Prime Minister Rishi Sunak and his family are off on their first holiday in four years. They're going to California, it's where he met his wife, and then they're off to Disneyland with the girls. Sounds very nice. And his press secretary said the PM believes that a work-life balance is very important, particularly spending time with your family, especially if you have young kids.

But what I'd like to hear about this morning is the reality of your family holiday. Are they joyful or just plain hard work? Have you even managed to have one yet? Was it a 12-hour drive to Cornwall where everyone, including the dog, was carsick, only to be greeted with a week of rain, the Great British Summer Holiday? Do you feel like you need a holiday from your holiday, or are they blissful? Do you somehow manage to switch off completely and come back feeling refreshed? How were your family holidays growing up? Did you even have them? Is your family bonding

time away from the stresses of everyday life? Or maybe for you a holiday is very much a privilege not a right and a right now the idea of going on holiday is just that a lovely idea. So family holidays joyful or hard work? Someone's already got in touch on Twitter to say on holiday pregnant and with a toddler I felt very much that my husband was getting the relaxing pre-child holiday experience whilst I was picking up all the slack. I'd find him eating breakfast with toddler sat with cereal in front of her, but no milk or spoon. Then when we returned to an apartment, we'd stayed in already. We were travelling for about three weeks. Husband by now was joining in with chores, but had no idea where any of the washing up stuff was

despite having stayed there for five days the previous week get it out let it all out get in touch in the usual way you can text me 84844 you can also email me by going to our website or you can voice note me or whatsapp me it's 03700 100 444. And of course, check the terms and conditions. They can be found on our website. Also on the programme, Nicole Travolta is going to be telling us about her one-woman show, how she freed herself from the shame and debt of being a compulsive shopper. And limber up your hips. We will have live music from Lucy Calcines.

She's headlining the largest Latino festival in the UK. 84844 is that number. Once again, if you'd like to get in touch with me about anything you hear on the programme, particularly what we're about to talk about now, because we've been talking about it all week, loneliness. So many of you have got in touch with us about your experiences of loneliness. And thank you. We are immensely grateful.

Keep them coming. It's so important to have these conversations and today we're going to try and give you some answers. We're discussing the topic of loneliness because statistically women are more likely to experience it compared to men and young people in particular are more likely than older people to report feeling lonely. Now on yesterday yesterday's programme, we heard from the economist Professor Noreena Hertz, who has found loneliness impacts the decisions we make at the ballot box. There used to be this gender divide

between people who would vote for right-wing populist parties, and that has really been closing over the last few years, with these parties really weaponising community in order to attract and prey upon lonely people. So we see, for example, if you think about Giorgio Milan, the Prime Minister of Italy, right populist party, the party is even called Brothers of Italy, you know, Fratelli d'Italia. She talks about community, about family. These political parties are speaking to community. They're speaking to the lonely. They're saying, we hear you and we see you. Fascinating stuff. You can listen back to all

our items on loneliness on BBC Sounds. Today, we're looking at what we can do with these feelings of loneliness and what to do if you're worried someone you know might be lonely. Delighted to say I'm joined by Claudia Hammond, the presenter of Radio 4's All In The Mind and author of The Keys To Kindness, and Francesca Spector. She's a podcast host and author of the book Alonement. Morning to both of you and welcome.

Claudia, I'm going to start with you because way back in 2018, All In The Mind, Radio 4's All In The Mind, I should say, you looked at our experiences of loneliness. We've had a whole pandemic since then. What's your understanding of it and how it impacts us? Yeah, so when we did the BBC loneliness experiment, 55,000 people took part from all around the world. And it was clear that a lot of people were feeling lonely and feeling these experiences of all ages. And a third of people told us that they were feeling lonely often or even very often.

And we also asked people, though, you know, what they think loneliness is. People said it's not being able to talk to anyone, feeling disconnected from the world, feeling left out, feeling not understood, showing there's a strong emotional component to the feeling. And for some people, they can feel lonely, even though they are surrounded by other people as well. And what about women in particular, and their relationship with loneliness? What did you find out there? Yeah, it was interesting. What we found there was that women tended to feel more shame about their loneliness, they, they associated it more with a stigma and more felt that this was bad, that there was something bad about them, that they were feeling this. And they said that more than men did. And interestingly, the people who felt lonely said they felt that loneliness was a shameful thing, whereas the people who didn't feel lonely didn't say it was a shameful thing. They understood that other people would sometimes feel lonely and

didn't think that made them bad. So it's something where people are almost self stigmatizing, you know, they're feeling feeling bad about themselves for feeling lonely, which of course, then gets you into a vicious cycle where you feel even even worse about it, because you sort of feel bad and guilty for feeling lonely in the first place when it's, it's a completely normal, understandable feeling that affects lots of people some of the time and is usually temporary. Francesca, I'm going to bring you in here because the pandemic was a really difficult time for you. You felt loneliness like a lot of us did. How did it manifest and can you relate to what Claudia's just been talking about, that feeling

of shame? I absolutely can. I think that before the pandemic, I didn't really have the vocabulary to talk about loneliness. I think it was something that felt like almost a personal failing, especially as a young person before the research really has come out and been popularized, that actually women, young women are the most susceptible to it in many ways. I however think that it was actually a time where we were able to talk about it in a way which felt more universal. It was probably the first time that that could have been the case, everyone being put in a very unnatural state of being. And it actually, for I think, for me in my personal life, and later on in my work and on my podcast, it became a jumping off point at which we could say,

okay, look, the jig is up. We were all lonely at this time. What kind of loneliness were you experiencing? What flavor of loneliness was that? And it actually became a very valuable route onto conversations like we're having this week on Women's Hour. So what was your flavor of loneliness? And apart from the podcast, which is a great way of dealing with it because you're opening up the conversation, helping so many other people. You're about to record your eighth series, so it's done really well.

How did you cope? How did you deal with it? Well, actually, it's a sort of many flavours of loneliness. It's one of those sort of very overloaded ice cream cones, in fact. Let's keep going with it. I'm really enjoying it. I kind of am across a few different risk factors for loneliness. very overloaded ice cream cones, in fact. Let's keep going with it. I'm really enjoying it. I kind of, I'm across a few different risk factors for loneliness. So in my personal life, I'm female, I'm single, I live alone. I'm a freelancer.

And I came to develop a certain level of self-compassion, I think, for those experiences in the past sort of three, four years that I've been negotiating them. And I think that navigating them rather. And I think that in terms of ways to overcome that, or I don't really think that loneliness is something you ever overcome, but at least acknowledge and kind of treat it. I think that one thing really was that jumping off point of speaking about it, I created this rule for myself, if I felt that any experience was isolating, whether that had been a succession of bad dates, or whether that had been a freelance writers week, where I felt myself sort of, we call it pitching into the abyss, different pitching out different stories to editors and not getting much feedback, I was going to then speak about it to someone who might understand

whether that was uh kind of you know speaking about it on social media tweeting about it or even gaining a new friendship as I have done very much so over the last few years and the really wonderful thing about that is it helps to treat at least one of the person's loneliness because you share that experience uh together and it stops being something that's isolating by definition how do you get to the point because um you know where you can even when you're in the depths of your lonely despair, getting to the point where you feel, OK, I know what I need to do to help myself. How do you, if you are pitching into the abyss, how do you then get the capacity to go, right, I need to pick up the phone and sort myself out? And talk about it. Well, I think that's a harder process because the thing about loneliness is it's quite hard to identify once you're in it.

It's quite demotivating um it's quite isolating but I think that one of the things I speak about I think that loneliness and the ability to practice sort of positive solitude what I refer to as alonement is very important and so I think when I'm in those states where I'm sort of feeling and I know it's an irrational feeling no one would be able to relate to this or I don't feel like I can connect with other people. I think my first port of call there is something like journaling is quite important for me as a writer. I know people have different outlets.

Some people use sort of, you know, people access therapy for this. Or, you know, for some people it's another artistic expression or, you know, talking to someone very close to them who they know is going to be a good listener and I think I go from that kind of state of I don't know I don't I'm hesitant to use the term self-care but it is that and being able to navigate solitude in a comfortable way and then it it's a sort of building block it's a foundation that relationship with yourself that then you can build outwards to greater connection elsewhere we have been talking about this all week claudia and you know people have been getting in touch i'm just going to read

out one of the a couple of tweets nikki got in touch to say i really resonated with your guests on monday beth who said she feels lonely when working from home it can be very isolating sometimes i go to a quiet coffee shop for a couple of hours to be with others katie said i live on my with your guests on Monday. Beth, who said she feels lonely when working from home. It can be very isolating. Sometimes I go to a quiet coffee shop for a couple of hours to be with others. Katie said, I live on my own. I have high anxiety. I can go for weeks without speaking to anyone. I've joined groups and clubs locally,

but get very anxious about walking into a group of people and embarrassing myself. By the way, keep your thoughts coming in on this. 84844 is the number if you do want to text us and I can see lots of you are getting in touch and I will come to them in a minute. 84844 is the number if you do want to text us and I can see lots of you are getting in touch and I will come to them in a minute. But Claudia, today is all about trying to alleviate these feelings and we've heard from Francesca there. What have you found has worked for people? Yeah, so we asked people what they thought the best solutions were and the one that

came out number one actually in the list was distracting yourself with other activities. Finding something that really, really absorbs you. Because if that loneliness is fleeting, which sometimes it can be, then being really absorbed in something else in your own company, a bit like Francesca says, being sort of happy in your own solitude for a while, but doing something that really absorbs you can help. The second one was joining a social club or taking up some new social activity. And, of course, as your listener said, that can make people feel very anxious. And interestingly, that also came on the list of least helpful solutions that people gave. So, you know, that's not going to work for everybody.

But there are ways of trying to alleviate that anxiety if you are going to a new group. One is to try to choose something where you will have something in common with the people because it is about something you really like, whether that's gardening or a book group or something where you will have something in common with the people because it is about something you really like whether that's gardening or a book group or but something where there's something else you can talk about you won't feel you've you've got to just sort of talk about yourself and we know that I mean there's been lots of research done by my colleagues at Sussex University on starting conversations with strangers and how even though this is probably not going to lead to some really deep friendship but it starts rebuilding those connections with other people and reminding you that we're all in this together and that talking to a stranger you know just chatting to somebody

in the shop that they will usually be really nice back and that we know from research that people think that they are better than average at most things like most of us think we're better than average drivers and all sorts of things. The one thing people don't think they're better than average at is talking to strangers. And most of us will say, oh, we're not very good at it. And we'll fear that the other person won't like us very much and that we might bore them. People are terrified that they might bore people. And that actually in experiments where they got people to deliberately have conversations with strangers, they enjoyed it more than they thought they would. People actually rated other

people very highly. So the people who were afraid that people wouldn't like them, that just wasn't the case at all. And one of the difficulties is once you start feeling lonely, we know that people then begin to feel more negative about themselves. And you can begin to be more suspicious of other people and fear that they're going to reject you. And to, if somebody does, say you try to chat to somebody in a shop and that they're busy and so they don't chat to you. People, if they're already feeling lonely,

will take that very negatively and think, oh, this proves that I was right. Nobody likes me. I'm hopeless. And if that situation happens, you need to think really carefully, well, is there another explanation? What is the possible explanation? And sometimes it is just that, I don't know, you go up and talk to somebody at work at the wrong moment when

they're really busy. And it's not they don't like you. It was just a bad moment or they're having a bad day. Yeah, it's kind of not all about you. It's not always your fault. And I think people, we often fear that if we get a negative reaction, it must be us. And so I think those things can really work. That came at number four, starting a conversation with anyone. And interestingly, at number three... Which they do in the North quite a lot. That's true. That's true.

It does vary from area to area. It's true. And change your thinking to be more positive was interestingly one thing that people were suggesting themselves. And I noticed when you heard on Women's Hour on Monday from Beth and Rachel, they both recognised that feeling lonely had changed their thinking and that they were trying to feel less negative about themselves. And you need to then ask yourself, well, what is the evidence that I'm actually rubbish

if I'm thinking rubbish and really interrogate. So it can become self-fulfilling. It can, yeah. And then that makes it more difficult to reach out to other people, which is why these little conversations can be a kind of stepping stone on the way. And it's like Francesca was saying, if you can find some time where you can feel a bit happier with yourself, then the next stepping stone might be having some of these conversations. And then you might realise that, yeah, we're all in this world and it's hard for

all of us sometimes and that we have got, we're more in it together as humans, if you like. I just want to pick up on that whole reframing of it and reframing the understanding of it. You've mentioned something positive, solitude. Explain. Yes. And I mean, to some people that would seem like an absolute oxymoron, right? But I think that a lot of what I do is being able to distinguish between loneliness and solitude or what I literally invented a new word, that felt like by default, loneliness, because there was no way to see it otherwise. was quite interesting for me I recently attended the launch of a white paper commissioned by the Buckinghamshire New University where it's the first time that international researchers from the backgrounds of respectively solitude and loneliness have actually collaborated got together to create a anti-loneliness policy and it really does start with, as you say, the sort of, as Claudia says, the reframing of time by oneself, the reframing of this idea or something that can be positive and being able to balance the two.

Yeah, I mean, to some extent, isn't it part of the human experience to feel lonely, Claudia? It is. I mean, we know it's very normal, particularly in transitions, particularly if people have just moved to somewhere new or, you know, maybe they've just had a baby or they've just retired or somebody has just died then it is you know very normal to to feel this way and that sometimes we will feel like that and I think one of the reasons why it is harder and why it might feel harder when people are young is that they may not have had the experience before so they feel this really painful thing what is this and don't know that it will move on in the end and that often it will move on so I think what people also need to do is to be to be very kind to themselves while they're trying to do this you know not to think oh I can go out tomorrow I'll do all these things and then it'll all be fine and then sort of beat yourself

up some more if it isn't you need to take it step by step and be be kind to yourself while you do it and do you think it's because it's still such a taboo to talk about feeling lonely i think it is but i think maybe the gradually that is is improving a bit you know there's there's podcasts like yours there's people talking about it you're talking about it here we are yeah here we are um people when we did the loneliness experiment people in my street were coming up and talking to me about it so people i think hopefully we'll start talking about it more as something this is how you feel like you may say to somebody, you feel a bit sad, you feel a bit lonely. It doesn't mean you're bad.

What's the best way to speak to someone who you might think is lonely? Yeah, it's interesting. I think that it's difficult if they don't bring it up themselves, but to just really listen, to talk to them about how they're feeling and really, really listen and really concentrate on listening to them properly. And then don't try to jump in with loads of solutions that they might not like, like saying, you know, go and join a club, go and do this, go and do that, because that needs to be done very gently. It's so difficult not to do that. Not to give an opinion.

Exactly. But you can say to people, you know, do you want to just talk about it or, you know, are you looking for some ideas? Ask people what they've tried. And if they tried something, well, maybe it didn't work because of this. And maybe you could, is it worth trying that again? And to gently try to edge people towards things whilst accepting, it can be really difficult for people. So what advice would you give Francesca?

And I know there are people, because actually, no, let's read a couple of messages out. Regarding loneliness, I experienced this during my time at uni far from home. I didn't drink much, so I wasn't involved in boozy student nights that's a really interesting point because you said find something that keeps you entertained a lot of us just end up going to the pub every weekend i mean that is part of british social culture doesn't necessarily always end in the best way for people but anyway back to the tweet um says and therefore didn't realize um really make friends i was so unhappy and depressed but also didn't really know how to help myself. Now 12 years older, I would try lots of other things. I think it's about trying new things to help yourself. Luckily, I had amazing family support. Another message here.

I'm wondering if anyone has any advice for someone on the other side. I do not feel lonely, but my partner does. This is interesting. We both have busy jobs. We have two small kids, and I'm about to start a full-time master's in social work. I don't feel like I have the resources or time or energy to also look after him or help him. Okay, let's talk about that. Well, I think that's really interesting because we live in, there's a term, amatonormative. We live in a society where what that means is that we think that romantic relationships should be sort of prioritised above all else. And I think that quite often feeds into experiences of loneliness for new parents or for people within relationships. And I think that that assumption that our partner will be the cure all solution to our loneliness actually creates so much of it.

And it's difficult for the listener who's written in and is trying to help their partner and it's difficult for the partner. So I think the advice that I would give to anyone in that position is, is really to do something which feels quite counterintuitive in a relationship and encourage that person to both look inwards and, you know, do that time with themselves, create that sense of connection with oneself, but also outwards to any structures that sort of make them remind themselves of who they are, which communities they're part of outside of that relationship, that structure, whether that's a hobby, whether that's a sort of, you know, religious institution, whatever that is that makes them then connect with that essence of their identity. Yeah, I think absolutely. And to encourage them to take the time to think about maybe why they're feeling lonely and which of those things might help and what they can do about it.

Because it's not, as you said, the partner can't be everything to them completely and the partner has lots of other busy things to do as well. And so it's good for everyone to have a range of things. This is such a fascinating chat, but we have run out of time. There's so many messages coming in and we are going to be talking about it again tomorrow.

But today, Claudia and Francesca, thank you so much for coming in to speak to me. I'm going to read out a few more messages. Can you please suggest, someone said, volunteering regarding loneliness. Thank you. Local hospital, et cetera. Yes, you're getting a very affirmative nod there.

Yeah, there's very good research on that being beneficial and just being kind to other people. very beneficial for your well-being and actually during lockdown so many of us were out there volunteering in our local community just to get out of the house and it was so beneficial to for your mental health um and someone else says i shirley has got in touch to say i'm single 57 year old woman and i've experienced a lot of loneliness throughout my life one of the ways i've coped with it is through my love of baking. I find it a constant companion. It's a beautiful and positive way to channel any loneliness I may feel. However, what completes the circle for me is that I seek out ways I can share the cake I've made. One of those ways is hosting an afternoon

drop-in at my house for a cuppa, some cake and chat to connect with folks. You get two big stars from Team Woman's hour for that cake and a cuppa and sharing the cake is what it's all about thank you everyone who's been in touch keep your thoughts coming in because like i said we are picking up on this topic again tomorrow and i'm sure we'll be able to read some more of your messages out i will do throughout the program but on to my next guest thank you you. Bad with money, great with a spray gun. That's Nicole Travolta. She's bringing her one woman show Doing Alright to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, which chronicles her life as a compulsive shopper, how she freed herself from

debt and shame and the weight of a famous name, one spray tan at a time. When she's not dressed up in a wig doing impressions, she can be found performing comedy around LA. Nicole has also appeared in sitcoms such as Two and a Half Men and Anger Management. And she joins me now. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Nicole. Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm honored. It is great to have you. Tell us about your show. It's based on being a compulsive shopper. Tell us more. Correct. And that compulsive shopper was me um it deals with debt divorce shame and then really stripping yourself of all of that and um finding yourself by taking a job as a spray tanner um and uh when i was going through the motions of writing this, I really, you know, wanted the audience to sort of feel like they were on this chaotic journey with me in real time. And I

believe that we very much achieved that. But, you know, it's about my life and me growing up with my relationship with money and my spending habits and hiding these, which led to a divorce, dysfunctional marriage. And then really having to dig deep inside of myself and take accountability for my actions. And I was working as an actor and everything was imploding. And I ended up taking this job as a spray tanner, which is quite normal to have, you know, multiple jobs when you're an actor. But, you know, when your life is on a certain trajectory and then everything falls apart, it's an interesting place to land. What was the trajectory? I felt like I was on my way to booking a show, you know, like, was you know I felt I was booking jobs booking jobs

and then all of a sudden I was getting divorced with a mountain of debt and um spray tanning people um where did this shopping addiction come from you've obviously spent some time thinking about your life and so what have you what's the root cause What have you got it down to? Definitely, there was a pattern of habits my whole life. You know, my mom had similar habits. My grandmother had similar habits. My grandmother was actually a horse racing bookie. And she used to give my mom money to get her out of the house to go shopping. And it sort of implemented that into my life.

But for me personally, I feel that the material things for me were very much, you know, living a facade and feeling of not being enough, not having my own self-worth, and that these things would sort of make me this person that I thought I wanted to be. And when you really strip yourself of all of that, and it's freeing, and I really had to dig so deep. I think there's a lot of shame around this topic, especially with money, especially for women. I was labeled problematic. I was, you know, it's something that a lot of people don't talk about. And when doing the show, I knew it would be an interesting story. But what I didn't realize is how hard it would hit the audiences. And some of the feedback that I'm getting from other women has really brought me to my knees. And it's been cathartic and very healing. Yeah. I bet there's lots of people leaning in listening to this because

shopping is what we all do. And to some extent, we are absorbed in other people's lives and how magical other people's worlds seem and how we want a bit of that. And maybe that designer handbag is going to make me feel X, Y, and Z and the shoes. And, you know, to some extent they do make you feel quite good, but not when you're. It's a serotonin release. I mean, it truly is. And I think you can get yourself so deep. I mean, I was, when I was working and acting and I was, you know, making decent money,

I would go out and spend all of it on on things so I could walk around and, and feel like I was this, have this this person, but it was a lie. And it wasn't it wasn't really who I was. And it's, it's so interesting looking back at myself, then compared to where I am now. And I'm just, I'm so grateful to have hit that. Rock bottom. Yeah. I'm going to pull back the layers. Come on. Then what happened when you hit rock bottom? You really got to dig deep. You really got to. What was, what was rock bottom?

Rock bottom for me was getting sued by American Express. And, and, and going through a divorce. I mean, when you lose everything, I think people think that when you hit this rock bottom, I feel like you have two choices, right? You can continue on, sweep it under the rug, try to get yourself out of it and whatever way but for me the rock bottom when I lost everything and everyone you really work at realizing why you are doing these things why you have these habits and then you grow and I think you have an opportunity to get a second chance and I really feel like I got that second chance and you got a job as a spray tanner I got a job as a spray tanner and what I mean you must have met some real characters

that was the the the funniest part is that I you know because I you really a lot of people have you know you're acting you're doing creative things and you have, you know, other jobs. It's a tough business, but this job was quite possibly one of the craziest things I had ever seen because you're going into these people's homes and it's vulnerable, right? They're, you know, not wearing any clothes and, but you're seeing these people for truly who they really are. And in LA, you're getting a lot of characters, whether it be, you know, a celebrity or, you know, I've been in the middle of people fighting between husbands, husband and wives being on an uproar with each other. I've had people say the craziest things to me about their tan and where they would like me to spray them. And it's just, it was such a bizarre journey, but it really helped me stand on my own two feet.

So here's what I'm thinking, because there are lots of people who have jobs in beauty salons and who are spray tanners and it's a job. It's great. And so, but for you, had you not had a job before? Is that why this was such a big deal? Not like this. I mean, I had worked before, I mean, you know, in retail, but I'd never done this type of a job, you know? And I think when, you know, I was on sets and working. So when I took this, my friend owns this salon in LA and she offered me the job and I was like,

no, I'm not going to take this job you know you're still in your own way did you think it was beneath you no I didn't think it was beneath me but I really couldn't believe that I was at this point having to get a real job yes I really was like I'm married I'm I'm I'm gonna I'm booking jobs everything is going well and then now I'm, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm booking jobs, everything is going well. And then now I'm divorced. I have no money. And I'm spray tanning. Yeah, reality is a very big switch for me. But the characters, I mean, it gave me, it gave me a show, you know, and it really, it really saved me and I it it just getting out of your own way and and doing this job really it it really landed me on my own two feet good I've got to ask though because you have got a very famous surname because you are the niece of John Travolta how did the weight of that name

affect your spending habits and did it I believe that it affects it a lot. I think that the public puts on an expectation of, you know, how I'm supposed to be or what I'm supposed to be like or that, you know, I should be on private planes or, you know, have a lot of money or live in a big house. And we I was born in Los Angeles. My parents moved us to Florida before they got divorced. And when I started school there in a room, you know, it was like a nightmare when people call out your name during attendance. And I remember these two girls were in front of me and were making fun of me. They're like, did you fly a private plane to get here?

I had notes passed around about me. And it's so ridiculous because I'm as neat, you know, it's just you don't treat people that way. But I think it really, the public has a perception of this person that they think you should be. And I sure tried to live up to that. How are you doing? Your show is called doing all right are you doing all right i think i'm doing all right i mean i'm on bbc women's hour with you i feel like i'm doing all right that is the right answer right answer and very quickly because we i'm just there's so much i could chat to you about but i hear you do an amazing carrie bradshaw and samantha jones impression can we hear it i do what do you want me bring it on bring it on here we go do you have something that you want me to say for bbc what yeah give me you want to give me a give me a line uh oh my god what topic yeah i mean shopping okay honey i bought one of these bags at the celine store it was twenty five hundred dollars but honey i don't even. What's a little credit card debt?

Very good. Very good. Nicole, it's been a real joy talking to you. Thank you so much. And best of luck for Edinburgh. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Nicole Travolta, and she is performing. She's doing all right.

It's going to be at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival from the 14th to the 19th of August. Now, Listener Week is starting on the 21st of August, and one listener has got in touch to discuss the joy of giving up her passion. Despite wanting to be a novelist all her life, she's now liberated herself from that pressure and is pursuing a more fulfilling creative path. So have you ever had to let go of a dream or a vacation? Why and how did it make you feel? Was there a relief and even a pleasure in stopping? Get in touch. We would love to hear from you.

I cannot wait for Listener Week. This is where we dedicate the week to you, your stories, the topics that you want us to cover. And you never know, you might be on Woman's Hour. So get in touch, 84844. You can also email us by going to our website. Now, the children's charity NSPCC says that its helpline received over 1,000 contacts last year about children experiencing coercive and controlling behaviour, a form of domestic abuse. The school some holidays can be a particularly difficult time for some children and the charity is asking the public to be vigilant and to contact them if they have concerns. It's also asking the government for extra funding to ensure that child victims of domestic abuse can access high-quality specialist domestic abuse support. To find out more about what can go on behind closed doors,

I'm joined by Margaret, not her real name, who's experienced coercive control in a previous relationship, and Paddy Vint, who's development manager for the NSPCC helpline. Welcome to Women's Hour, both of you. Paddy, I'm going to come to you first just to understand a little bit more about this. Who are you hearing from? Children, parents, other adults? We are. On the helpline, we are hearing from parents, neighbours, professionals, anybody who has a concern for children.

And in particular, we're also hearing from victims of domestic abuse themselves. And they're telling us about the impact of the abuse, not only on themselves, but also on their children's experience of the domestic abuse. What kinds of things are you hearing? Certainly when we're thinking about the kind of coercive control and behaviour, which seems to be most prevalent in a lot of our calls. It's about the use of that power and control over the victim themselves and the impact that it's having on their everyday life. You know, that sense of seeking to take away that person's freedom and basically stripping away their sense of self,

which ultimately impacts on their own children as well for growing up in a home and an environment where that abuse is being played out. I've got a couple of examples here, Paddy. A boy aged 15 called Childline and he said, my dad is abusive to me and my mum. He shouts at us, calls us names, threatens us, is controlling, intimidating and degrading.

My dad drinks a lot and my mum makes excuses for him. I think she is scared that he will smash things up, make her lose her job and make her life hell if she leaves. I can see you nodding there. And then another one. 16-year-old girl got in touch to say, recently my dad's been threatening to move us to another country, even though mum is begging him not to.

I'm so fed up of living with him. He doesn't let me go to school. Me and mum have pleaded with him hundreds of times to change his mind. He doesn't want us to go out or dress in a certain way. Why do you think that summer school, the summer holidays is a particularly risky time for some children?

You know, very often home isn't the safe place that we want it to be, unfortunately. You know, some children take great solace in going to school going to after-school clubs and very often the thought of going home and experiencing that abuse is actually a fear for those children so during the summer holidays we've got extended periods off where there's very little additional adult intervention for those children they're not seeing their teachers they're not seeing their sports coaches they're not seeing their friends who they may be confiding and certainly the you know the contacts that we've had to our own child line service you know children are describing that sense of fear

hopelessness and being afraid you know so as well as the kind of the general extended period to summer holidays where they're not seeing other adults and protective factors you know sometimes summer holidays bring on additional pressures financially as well so where these children have maybe been receiving free school meals now all of a sudden they're at home and that you know the non-abusive parent is trying to find that additional money if there's been economic abuse to actually ensure that their child is fed that they have you know ability to maybe go and do activities um or that they're actually being restricted from even leaving the home for that six-week period i'm keen to bring margaret in

here because margaret you you were with your husband for almost 20 years a long history of abuse before we get into that I'm quite keen to understand how you actually managed to get out. Good morning thank you for having me it was a very strange thing in the process of coming to terms with what was happening to you and your children and being able to voice it out to the police really. So there had been two occasions where I had rung them just to log what happened to us. But there was one evening when I just thought I just couldn't get on anymore. And I just sat in my bed. And actually, thankfully, a police officer had looked at my case notes and came and rescued us.

Now, when he came to the door, it was half past ten at night. My husband, as he was then, was a taxi driver. And so he was out on a night and he came in the early hours of the morning. And I was really afraid that the police officers would come while he came home. But thankfully, they completely ignored me. And, you know, I was actually shutting my door, the policeman's foot in the door and told him to go away. But thankfully he didn't listen. And he said, no, no, no. We know that if you don't come now, you will be dead. And he just said, you know, it's time.

And one thing he did say, which was really strange, he said, it happens in middle class, you know, which was really strange to say, but to outside people. Well, I lived in a four bed detached house and I was a teacher. And, you know, there's an assumption that nobody will believe you because you have this respectable life to everybody else. And you made sure that you performed that act to keep you and yourself safe. Because the threat behind the scene is if you dare tell anybody, I'll make sure that you are. They know that you are mentally ill and the children will be taken off you and you will not have them. So that police officer who listened to my phone on the phone call was marvellous. And he took that decision to actually say, enough's enough.

And we were put in a police safe house with women's aid as well. I mean, looking at those many years of abuse and thinking about it now, I mean, you've just mentioned a little bit of the coercive control by making you feel that intense shame and saying that he's going to publicly shame you and make everyone believe that you're mentally unwell what was he like to live with and what were the other bits of coercive control that you might have not noticed at the time well it's the thing that nspcc and other charities will hear all the time it's like but it's not bad all the time you know you do have good times and and you just have to believe you're going to be okay

um so elements of it were um you know i you know i he would say things like i will buy you the best clothes you know you know the clothes i say things like, I will buy you the best clothes. You know the clothes I buy, you always look better on you. And you know that friend you've got, she doesn't really like you. But you're thinking, she does. Or your family member, they don't like me. It's best just if we just stay away from them because, you know, arguments happen and we're just like peace in this family.

Now, the other bit was because he was a taxi driver the children had to keep really quiet in the morning uh they couldn't make a noise because he would wake if if they woke him up you know we would suffer the consequences um i i'm a very aware of you know of what time we're on so I'm not going to say exactly what you said, but it was hurtful and lasting, lasting effects. What would you say to anyone listening? What advice would you give them if this is happening to them? There are people out there that can help you.

You must reach out because you will be threatened with um the children will be taken from the from the abusive person be it you know your husband wife or partner whatever the children will be taken from you and they nobody will believe you you'll have no money um even the wi-Fi on your phone, if you put it somewhere, will you have Wi-Fi, you'll lose your job. I was a teacher and I'll make sure you lose your job. So all of those things were said. Now, when you are taken out, those things can intensify.

There is a saying, you know, better to the devil you know, but actually the devil's never good to know. So I would say to them, reach out. And the NSPCC helpline is there for exactly that. And this is why we're discussing it today, Paddy, which is because during the summer, everything intensifies and your call rates are going up. One of the things that stood out for me is that you are encouraging people the public to be vigilant

absolutely this is something that i've i'm just it's a very tricky one isn't it because at what point should people intervene if you don't know 100 categorically what is going on behind that closed doors you suspect something is because it can have big implications. So what do you mean by that when you're saying be vigilant? Absolutely. Well, you know, very often the height of summer, you're going to have windows are going to be open. You're going to be seeing the children at home a lot more because they're maybe not at school. The society we live in now, a lot of people are now maybe also working from home more. So actually, sometimes we need our community to keep an eye on our neighbours and our families

around us, to be aware of those kind of comings and goings that are happening from the house, to be aware of noises and shouting that's coming from the house. And keeping an eye on the children. Absolutely. You don't have to be certain you don't have to know for sure but if you have concerns or something just seems that little bit off for you please reach out to the the helpline we can talk you through the process you know explore your concerns with you and this could be this might be i've just got a bit of a gut feeling about that

yeah that's what our our helpline and child protection specialists are there for to to talk you through that process and you can also do it um confidentially you know we can talk you through your anonymity policy as well if you're concerned about the information identifying you yeah um and margaret how are you now and how are your children you're all doing well we're doing really well thank you and the strange thing about it all my husband said he was doing this for the best of us all this abuse but actually if you saw how the children are now they are very successful in very creative and ways I never ever thought that they would be um achieving um and so I'm very proud and we love life because life's for

living isn't it and we and we look for the good so when you look for the good you find it um I want to thank you all uh for speaking to me this morning. Margaret, thank you so much for joining me and being so honest about your experience. And Paddy, thank you too. 84844, lots of you getting in touch about the topic that we opened with, which is loneliness. Sarah Newmarket says, loneliness is also a longing for something lost or never found. And the power of human contact is so important i find reflexology or massage even a pedicure really helps if the melancholy strikes now get your ready get your hips ready to sway because you're in for a real treat now because we're going to have some live music from cuban

spanish singer-songwriter lucy calcines she's the headline act at the uk's largest latin music and dance festival this weekend she She got her first break after her appearance on The Voice in 2020. You may remember she performed her own remix of the Latin mega hit Mi Gente by J Balvin and Willie William. She achieved

a four-chain turn. All four of them turned around. Meghan Trainor, it's making my arm hair stand on end just thinking about it, Lucy. Meghan Trainor, Tom Jones, Olly Murs and Will.i.am all turned for her. She's the first woman to headline the Latin Life in the Park Festival being held in London this Saturday alongside some of the up and coming new talents from the UK's music scene. I'm also joined by the festival organiser, Amaranta Wright.

Welcome to both of you. Just two more sleeps away, two more days until the festival. How excited are you both? Amaranta, this is a big deal. Oh God, this week is always really insane. But yeah, lots to do. This is our seventh year, so we're kind of used to it, but you can never be used to having 10,000 people as your guests, really. But, yeah, it's really exciting to have Lucy and our first female headliner, and that's actually what's getting me really pumped.

Yeah, first female headliner. My instinct's always to say, why has it taken so long? But you tell me. I mean, it's amazing that Lucy is headlining, and is it because the talent isn't few and far between, is it, surely? Well, there are a few issues. I mean, music it's really you know we've had to start really from scratch here and we've been building I mean the festival is actually only part of what we do all year round which is nurturing talent we now have a record label but we've been doing

this for 15 years and because Latin music has, especially UK Latin music, has been so underground, it's really taken us this long to get where we are. No more. It's not going to be a Lucy. You look absolutely gorgeous, by the way. Thank you so much.

I'm fully appreciating this, all of it, beautiful. You'll be able to see when we put pictures of Lucy and her performance on our social media. How excited are you about headlining? Honestly, I'm just super excited and super honored to be, you know, the first woman to headline this festival and just to be able to represent the Latin community and also showcase my talent. I'm super, super grateful for this opportunity and I just can't wait to connect with the audience. You sing in Spanish and English.

Yeah. Not unusual for Latin artists. Yeah I feel like it's really important to you know combine both of the cultures that make us because we're Latin but you know we're also like raised in the UK and like we both have like we all have both languages so it's really important for us to like just interpolate and kind of fusion both cultures, because that's what makes us, you know, Latin music, Spanish music outsells English music globally now. And yet here in the UK, I mean, yes, we know about Latin music, we know all the big mega pop stars. How important was it for you when you went on The Voice and you represented your

community? Honestly, I was just so grateful to be able to, you know, showcase that we exist. We're here and there's a music industry that's actually based on Latin music in the UK, too. So we deserve to have that exposure, too. Why is it so underrepresented? Oh, gosh, there are many reasons. I mean, I think the UK has always had a very strong musical identity of its own. And Latin music has been mainstream in Europe, for example, Italy, France, in non-Spanish speaking countries for a long time.

But yeah, in the UK, I think it's partly that. I think maybe the English audience are a bit reluctant to listen to music not in English. But actually now, I think on this one, the public is really ahead of the industry in the UK and the media because, you know, it's being streamed all over the country as all over the world. But I think the industry still doesn't really know really what to do. I mean, I actually have talked to people in the industry and they're still talking to me about Ricky Martin.

And I'm like, that was 20 years ago. I know because I worked at Top of the Pops when he came on and I'll never forget when Ricky Martin came to perform live and I was there watching. He's great. He's great. We have moved on. We've got Lucy.

Exactly. Lucy, will you perform for us? Shall we bring some Latin vibe to Radio 4? Let's do it. Shall we? I'm ready. All right, come on then. I'll get you to take 4? Let's do it. I'm ready. All right. Come on then. I'll get you to take your position. Tell us what you're going to sing.

I'm going to sing my latest single, Bon Bon. Check it out on Spotify everywhere. Absolutely. And so whilst Lucy goes and takes her position at the microphone, I love a bit of live music. I'm going to just stretch my legs because I'm definitely going to dance while this is happening. So here we go. treat for us Lucy Calcino's singing her latest single Bomb Bomb yes Lucy thank you so much oh number one number one come on what a brilliant tune I mean I'm like we can't help but move to that I I mean, this is what the festival is all about, right? Yeah. In fact, talking about loneliness and people who don't feel like talking to anyone,

you can come to the festival and not talk to anyone. You can just dance. It's the best therapy. But it is the music of dance, right? It's the music of passion. It's the music. I mean, we associate, I suppose everyone loves Strictly here, so it's cha-cha, it's rumba, but there's so many other dances, tango, that are coming out of Latin America as well, right? Like the bachata?

Bachata from the Dominican Republic. I mean, that's huge. You are fantastic. What a great single. Thank you so much. And so who were some of your big Latin inspirations growing up? I would definitely say, you know, like the big divas, such as Gloria Estefan, Jennifer Lopezifer lopez selena those like were my

biggest influence and you are a diva too right thank you so much yes i'm a diva in progress actually in in this festival uh part of what lucy is going to do is a tribute to the latin divas um because i actually didn't know about this amazing um uh the audition that she did which is actually the most uh listened to audition in the history of the voice but i last year she came on to our second stage like last minute she goes could i come and she did this most amazing performance of selena quintanilla who was a texana singer well before jaylo uh came along was the biggest crossover artist and she did this song I think it was come on our floor no and the audience just went absolutely mental yeah I'm not but I have watched your voice audition I've watched it numerous times because it is so powerful and

exciting but also I felt the weight of you representing something that hasn't been done before so I want to say more power to you lucy good luck thank you so so much you are magnificent and that's that track is just going to get everyone going and uh hopefully it's a huge success for you right if we want to come i want to come on saturday where am i coming where are we going uh woolpole park in ealing you can buy tickets on our website latinalifeinthepark.com, or you just come along on the day. And it's super affordable. I think they're £10 and you get food stalls, there's two stages.

It's all happening and mainly Lucy is headlining. Thank you for coming and bringing such joy to the Women's Hour Festival. Thank you so much for having me. My pleasure. Come back tomorrow and join us for more Women's Hour where we will be discussing the Netball World Cup and more loneliness chat. Thank you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. From BBC Radio 4. You are the ten individuals taking part in the Phase 1 trial of our new drug. Bitter Pill. It doesn't cure PTSD, quite the opposite. An audio drama series.

What was that? It's okay, Mary. What happened? You're in the lab. Where's Carl? Carl? He's in the hospital. Available on BBC Science. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.