Woman's Hour - Loneliness – the last taboo?

Episode Date: February 10, 2020

Everyone will know someone who has been lonely. The vast majority of us will feel this way at some point in our lives. More and more of us are happy to speak out about depression but why is there still such stigma associated to talking about loneliness? Does it make us too vulnerable? We often hear about the old being lonely – but what about the young and middle aged? It isn’t considered a mental health condition but should it be? What impact does it actually have on our wellbeing? And what can we, as individuals, civil society and government actually do to tackle it? Jane speaks to Baroness Diana Barran, Minister for Loneliness, Professor Pamela Qualter, Prof of psychology for education, Uni of Manchester, Bethan Harris, Creator of Loneliness Lab & Director of Collectively and Kim Leadbetter, ambassador for the Jo Cox Foundation and Jo Cox’s sister.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Dianne Mcgregor and Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Baroness Diana Barran Interviewed Guest: Professor Pamela Qualter Interviewed Guest: Kim Leadbeater Interviewed Guest: Bethan Harris

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, good morning. And today we're talking about loneliness, which a lot of people still regard as something of a taboo. Is there honestly a stigma surrounding talking about loneliness, owning it in effect and acknowledging that not that you were lonely back in the day before certain things happened to you, before your life became complete, but lonely right now in your current life.

It isn't easy to admit to that. And I use the word admit advisedly, I suppose. So we'll have a conversation around that subject this morning. And we really do want your involvement. You can contact the programme on social media at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and Instagram or email us through the website bbc.co.uk forward slash Women's Hour. Baroness Diana Barron is England's Minister for Loneliness. Diana, welcome to you. Morning. Bethan Harris is here, co-founder of Loneliness Lab. Welcome to you, Bethan. Morning. In our studio in Salford, Pamela Coulter, who's a professor of psychology at the University of Manchester. Welcome to you, Bethan. In our studio in Salford, Pamela Coulter, who's a professor of psychology at the University of Manchester. Welcome to you, Pamela. Good morning.

Morning. And in Leeds, Kim Ledbetter, ambassador for the Jo Cox Foundation and Jo Cox's sister. Kim, good morning to you too. Good morning. I know you've been storm affected, haven't you, Kim? Yeah, it's pretty rough up here, but I've got here just in time. Well, we're really grateful. Pamela's had a not an easy time either. Is that right, Pamela? That's right. It's been rough up here, but I've got here just in time. Well, we're really grateful. And Pamela's had a not an easy time either. Is that right, Pamela? That's right. It's been dreadful too. Can I tell you, in West London, it's been quite calm, actually.

So I've got no anecdotes to supply, storm related. But thank you all for making the effort today, because I know it's not been easy. It isn't easy either to define loneliness. I'm going to throw that one to you, Pamela. What would you say? OK, well, loneliness, really, lots of people think it's about social isolation, but it is quite different. It's about your perception. It's about your feelings of being disconnected. And of course, that can be to do with the fact that you want more friends, but it might be that you're wanting a more, a closer friendship with somebody.

So there can be different reasons why you're feeling lonely, but it's that feeling of disconnection. And how do you go about changing that? Oh, I think that's really, really difficult. I think the first thing is to find out why you're feeling lonely. And is it a transitory thing? Because we all feel that at some point in our lives, perhaps because we've moved and we don't know anyone in a particular area. But also, you know, some people can feel it chronically, so they can feel it over a long period of time. And being able to cope with those, you would have different responses, different ways of coping with those different things.

You know, if it's transitory, there might be simple things that we can do, you know, trying to reconnect with other people. It's much harder if you're feeling it over many months or years because we see knock-on effects to self-worth and so on looking at the emails I've had I mean it's hard to do justice to them and I don't want to generalize but there are young people there are parents worried about their offspring perhaps living away from home from the first time we've had emails too from carers who would love to be proactive and would love the opportunity to get out and make new connections, but they can't. It's as simple as that. Diana, you are a minister for, actually your official

title is Civic Society, but you cover loneliness and you are, is it the third minister who's been in that portfolio or having that portfolio? In how long? I think in a couple of years. I mean, I don't want to be too fatuous, but what's been achieved? Well, I think we've started a conversation both within government about how every government department can contribute to addressing loneliness. And we've also encouraged that conversation on social media through a campaign, Let's Talk Loneliness, working with a number of other charities in the field and in a way giving permission to people to talk about the fact that they might feel lonely

and helping them realise they're absolutely not the only one who feels like that. But there is a connection, obviously, between loneliness and mental health. And whenever we talk about mental health on the programme, and we did several times last week, I make the point or a listener makes the point that you can talk about it as much as you like. But if the resources aren't there to help you, then nothing's going to change, is it? That's absolutely true. And as you know, the government has committed to spending an awful lot more money over the next few years and embedding that in legislation on all forms of health. But I think, and I absolutely agree with what Pamela just said, that on the one level, this is a very complex issue. But on another level, there is something that pretty much every one of us can do every day

to help address if not our own loneliness somebody else's the sort of everyday acts of kindness so I don't want to belittle for a second the issues around mental health they're very important but I also think there is something about the fact that we have the power ourselves to address this in some part. OK, Bethan, because you are dealing, I think, mainly with young people in the loneliness lab, is that correct? We actually work across all age groups. Briefly, what is it? So the loneliness lab was set up just over a year ago because we wanted to look at sort of some of the structural drivers of loneliness in in in society so as Diana was just saying there's lots of things we can do to be better people and

neighbours and say hello to people but actually what we're looking at is is what are the sort of ways in which we're designing our cities and our towns and our communities that might be causing loneliness in the first place so um whether it's offices that are kind of very uh you know where you can go in and feel like nobody knows your name anymore because they're sort of big open plan spaces or um housing blocks where you don't actually see your neighbors anymore because of the way they're designed so you don't even know you don't notice anyone to actually say hello to and that's the stuff we're looking at that sort of thing does do you think that is leading to society being a tougher place than it's ever been and that people of your generation and younger are more likely to be lonely than say my age group do you

do you think um definitely we're i think we're designing much more around the individual and we're building a much more individualistic society and i think what we've seen when we've specifically looked at young people in this issue is that more and more how loneliness is showing up for them is a lot to do with social anxiety. So they don't actually know how to start conversations with people. They feel very anxious about the kind of face-to-face social interaction that they have. And actually, when you think about the way we're designing our communities right now, we're playing into that. My local high street, a new retailer has just opened up their store and there's no sort of cashier anywhere in the store. It's all just kind of digital.

Self-service. Yeah, all self-service. I have a real thing about the self-service till because when I stand behind people, I know that the lady who's gone out for a loaf and two bananas has actually gone out to have a conversation, you would hope. Kim, what do you think? Because your sister really stuck her head above the parapet on the subject of loneliness, didn't she? She did, and I'm delighted to see the progress that's been made in the last few years.

Jo had started working on loneliness in her short time as an MP on a cross-party basis with Seema Kennedy, and she sort of turbocharged the conversation. And after Joe was killed, that was picked up by Seema and by Rachel Reeves from the Labour benches. And it's a very good example of how cross-party working can be very powerful. And then that led to, as you've alluded to, the world's first ever Minister for Loneliness

and the world's first ever government strategy on loneliness. We had Tracey Crouch, we had Mims Davies, and now we have the wonderful Baroness Barron, who is leading the work on that. You don't have to say that just because she's here. I've met her, she's wonderful. So I think that's brilliant that that has happened. And as Diana also said, what we're having now

is lots more conversations about this really important issue. And the two things for me on loneliness, one, we'll probably all be affected by it at some point in our lives. Again, as you've alluded to there, this is across the lifespan. This is not just the elderly, For me, on loneliness, one, we'll probably all be affected by it at some point in our lives. Again, as you've alluded to there, this is across the lifespan. This is not just the elderly, whether it's carers, students, divorced people, retirement, bereavement. We're probably all going to be affected by it. But also, we can all do something to work on it. And that's what I found very, very empowering.

We're going to hear from some listeners in a moment. I just want to read these emails. This is from a mother who's worried about her son. He was offered an excellent training opportunity. He loves his job and he tells me regularly that he is struggling, though, with utter loneliness. He is working in a friendly enough office, but he hasn't made friends to socialise with in the evenings. He goes to the gym. We do FaceTime most evenings, but he often mentions his poor mental health.

Sometimes he refuses to communicate as he's in such a low mood. And this is from a young woman who says, I'm 23, I'm a student. My course doesn't really motivate or inspire me. And frankly, I've just got a lot of time to fill during the week, which I see as a blank stretch of loneliness. I have got some friends, but many work or they're just busier than me. And I spend whole days on my own. My family are abroad. So I just wander about. Your listener, who originally wrote in about this, and that was a couple of weeks ago,

and I read her email out, talked about turning to drink. Well, that mirrors me, but I instead turn to food. I just wander around the city buying treats to cheer myself up and then feel even more unhappy as that food hasn't filled the hole in my life caused by loneliness so there are two emails one from a young woman one from a woman understandably worried about her son let's hear from nat and sarah on the face of it um they have nothing to be concerned about why would these women feel any loneliness in their lives they're both in their 40s they They both have partners and children. And you'll hear from Nat first. that I feel painfully lonely a lot of the time. I think I put mine down to struggling to feel truly connected to people around me.

It's because of two things. One is that I do struggle with my mental health, with depression and anxiety. So that's a factor that kind of makes me feel a bit isolated from the world and functioning people around me. But also I feel without those things, I also feel lonely because of the way life is now. It's, you know, it's so busy. People are demanded of the age being 40. I feel like I'm expected to be a fully functioning together adult.

So I should be responsible for my children and I should be, you know, looking after my parents now and running a household and I know everyone around me is being demanded of at work at home and everyone's being pushed to the limit physically and emotionally and life is hard and I think when we're all so busy and relationships have to fit in to people's lives because priorities lie elsewhere and and then it's hard when you're just having fleeted exchanges or meeting once a month. It's very hard to feel truly connected. Yeah. And to say that you're lonely feels like you're demanding of people

that are already so demanded of. So it feels like you would be adding to that and it would be selfish. And you don't want to feel pitied either. I think people have said, I feel lonely to kind of give you that look and oh you know that's so sad yeah it's a it's a difficult one to admit to. Sarah what about you? There is so much in that that rings true for me as well and it's really actually

quite refreshing to hear that sounds like I'm in a similar situation I'm early 40s I've got three children constantly feel pulled in all directions I work full-time and when I'm early 40s, I've got three children, constantly feel pulled in all directions. I work full time. And when I'm not working, I kind of feel like I should be there doing stuff for my family and putting them first. And if I'm honest, I think that friendships fall a little bit by the wayside. They're not something that I prioritise as much as children. And I think that can actually have a bit of a downward spiral effect because if you're not trying to keep up with friends and keeping connected,

I mean, it's interesting that Nat used that word as well. I think that can make them think that you don't necessarily want to be as close to them and then those friendships drift and that in itself creates a bit of loneliness because it makes it that bit harder to get in touch with them. Maybe they don't get in touch with you. to them and then those friendships drift and that in itself creates a bit of loneliness because it makes it that bit harder to get in touch with them maybe they don't get in touch with you and there's a point about I don't want to admit to it either because if I admit that I'm a bit

lonely it makes me look needy and who wants a friend that's needy Sarah before Sarah Nat I think that's really interesting Kim that the friend well, you don't want to feel desperate. You don't want to be the needy one. It's tough, isn't it? Yeah, and I think Nat and Sarah have hit the nail on the head there, as did Bethan, in terms of the way that society functions in the modern day. We are all busy. Being busy has become a badge of honour, hasn't it? We're all dashing around onto the next thing. And I think ultimately, particularly for women, and this is part of my background in physical activity and health and wellbeing, we put ourselves at the bottom of a long list of other priorities. And that's what they seem to be describing. So we put our husbands or our partners first, our children, our jobs, and actually what suffers is our deep, meaningful friendships. So we're missing out on that depth of connection. We might have lots of people around around us but that depth of connection is often missing and that's why i suppose from my perspective with my

previous career doing something for you whether it's physical activity or whatever it is is really precious and important but you are risking something aren't you by admitting your own need i think the surprising thing with this is once you admit it you'll be surprised the number of other people admit it as well um and actually you know know, given life as it is, I think I think it's actually it's more unusual to not feel lonely at times. And I think we all need to sort of acknowledge that. Right. OK. I mean, Pamela, just take us further on that particular the idea that you've plucked up the courage to say, you know what? I am lonely and I would like you or the other person in my life, a person in my life, to help me out. And what if they just look petrified?

Yeah, and often what we find is they are petrified. Some might admit that they also feel lonely, but some will be quite frightened because they don't know how to fix that. So I think it's really about picking the right person to come find in. But I think Kim's right is actually getting it out in the open, making it real is something that we can start being able to manage. And I think we have got to make it a priority, you know, and I think that that's what's been really good about having the conversation at a countrywide level, talking about loneliness, putting it as a priority, means that we are beginning to understand and support one another

and have those relationships and have those conversations. Nat and Sarah are both mothers. Now, motherhood isn't the answer to everything. In fact, I can remember never feeling more isolated than in the early days of motherhood. What would you say about that, Kim? Well, certainly, you know, going back well certainly you know going back to going back to my sister going back to joe she struggled you know when she had her two children and again i think there's something there around identity isn't there because suddenly you become somebody's mum so you you lack being the person that you actually are and

you know the schools refer you to a so-and-so's moment and and that i think can be a very lonely place and and again the really important thing is reaching out to people who are going through similar situations to you and and you know new mothers often find solace in each other but having the time and the energy to do that when you're exhausted and you know and struggling to juggle everything is is really challenging but but it is a very common phenomenon and i think you know that is a one of these changing periods in life where loneliness is is a problem And again, let's talk about it. Let's have that conversation. Diana, what would you like to say about that? Well, I've got sort of two reflections on that.

One was a conversation I had the other day with an amazing young woman called Alex Hoskin who set up something called the Chatty Cafes. And she did that after she had her first child. And she said she never made it out on time to the mother and baby group. She need, you know, we can all remember that. Trying to get out the door. You know, and then you've got vomit down the back of your coat.

It's on a good day. Exactly. All of that. So her idea was to have something much more informal where you could make connections with people. That word that's come up a lot and there are now chatty cafes all over the country so I think that's how do you find them do you just google chatty cafe google chatty cafe and quite a lot of well-known high street brands which I'm probably not allowed to say I think you can have very active. The other thing I just wanted to say was I think connection is a two-way street. So I absolutely echo the point about you start to talk about it and that in itself can be healing.

But actually most of us want connection to go in both directions. Yeah. We don't want to be helped. We want to have a connection yeah which means you've got to do both you've got to do both yeah if you can of course and the interesting thing beth and about your generation is on paper you have never of course on paper is an arcane reference in itself you have never been more connected my goodness me you can be connected to somebody on the other side of the world in a nanosecond but are you really connected yeah i

mean that's exactly what happened to me actually just over a year ago I was I was really really struggling with my own mental health and had kind of got sort of a depression anxiety that had really really set in and because I started working on loneliness as a as a project and started to kind of understand the issue a bit more I started to sort of see that actually a bit more, I started to sort of see that actually a lot of what I was experiencing was loneliness, but it didn't make sense to me because I have lots of friends. And what was happening is I'd moved back from Australia, I was keeping in touch with my really close friends in Australia on WhatsApp as if they

lived down the street, but they didn't live down the street. And my friends in London as well, and I live in Bristol now. So for me, that was a real kind of wake-up call that actually these virtual connections and working from home and kind of speaking to people every day even though I was connected to all of these people in my life actually I was missing something like a deep need to actually just smile at people or have a hug or you know have a bad day and actually feel like you can kind of go through the superficial stuff that you might do but then actually then go into the deeper stuff so about a year ago I sort of did that kind of brave thing of sort of owning up to being lonely with people in in Bristol where I live with some other freelancers and even though it was a terrifying thing to admit

what I realized is a lot of us were in the same position. And so we've now got this really lovely group that meet up on Friday mornings and we go for walks. And that is rigid. You always do it. Not always, but every few weeks. And it's sort of because the invitation was there to sort of be vulnerable and say, oh, I'm actually a bit lonely. I think people feel they can lean into that group a bit more

and actually sort of say, you know, oh, I need to kind of have a chat or things like that. say oh I'm actually a bit lonely and I think people feel they can lean into that group a bit more and actually sort of say you know oh I need I need to kind of have a chat with things like that so yeah so it's definitely helped me and along with a few other things just to say yeah it's good isn't it I think she's put a head which put a head out there that's an extraordinary you know there's like you're a tortoise of some kind but anyway I think I think most people will know what I'm trying to say um because it's not easy to do maria says on twitter i think we're losing the art of real connections nobody pops around anymore no one just calls for a chat i think maria's on something because the old landline is dying out and we used to spend that we used to spend hours on the phone

didn't we not you and i diana but you're nodding you know what I mean yes absolutely do people ring other people just for a natter like they used to I don't think so and Beth and I were talking about this just before the program that both of us uh you know when we were canvassing found that there were people where you just couldn't get off the doorstep in the nicest possible way because they wanted to talk and you really felt that you were probably the only person they'd seen to talk to for a while that's grim isn't it kim what would you say about that yeah no i totally agree and you've hit the nail on the head we're in a society where we're supposedly better connected than ever but there is absolutely no substitute for a proper human connection sit down eye contact body language maybe even touch someone's arm heaven

forbid you know that that sort of human connection you you know, whether it's a WhatsApp group, and I'm as bad as anybody else, I am totally guilty of dozens of WhatsApp groups, several email accounts, all the rest of it. But actually that is not the same as being in the same room as somebody and connecting and speaking and having that depth. And we have to fight against that, you know, the other ways of connecting, I think, and work really hard. I just want to say, obviously, if know, the other ways of connecting, I think, and work really hard. I just want to say, obviously, if you contacted the programme this morning on social media, then your name is there.

And I appreciate that then is public. So if you want to talk about this, but you'd rather email, I promise that if you email us via the website, bbc.co.uk slash women's hour, I will not mention your name on air. You can absolutely be guaranteed that because this is tough stuff to acknowledge. That lack of connection is felt, I think, more keenly by young people. And we're just going to listen to these young women who took part in a project called London is Lonely. This is what's described as an immersive exhibition tackling shame and stigma surrounding loneliness in London. Yasmin is the first voice. She describes herself as a native Somali Muslim and she's studying forensic science at university. I enjoy uni, but I just feel as though

I don't really want to be here, but I have to be here. I've just always loved to sing. I love to write. I like poetry. That's my passion. But I feel like culturally, my background, it's always better to hear a scientist in the family than a singer. I have like this person that I want to be.

If I express it to certain people in my life, they're going to be like, well, you know? And at the same time, I do understand that, yes, okay, when I finish uni and get my degree, it'll open doors for me, but it's like a clash of identity. Like, this isn't for me. And you're really shown it when you're in your lectures or in your labs because you see your other peers and you see how into that they are and you're like, okay, am I meant to be here? It feels

like not being understood. Whether it's me thinking about uni, my studies, thinking about the fact that I want to sing, I want to write and thinking about how I'm not doing that and how I don't know how to go about that as well. Like all those thoughts within myself make me feel as though no one can relate to me and I don't really fit in. My name's Jo, I'm from Stoke Newington. As a kid you know I was different a bit left out and the odd one out there were rumors and stuff in school like oh Jo's big lesbian Jo did this I'd get comments from people being like you seem a bit gay and so it always felt like a really bad thing so I was like oh I can't be gay and I think that I was just so different already.

I didn't want to add fuel to the fire. I just wanted to be like everyone else. I just, you know, I wanted to go out with boys and be like all the other girls that I was friends with. And then I had a few months, I guess it was like six months of just going off the rails a little bit. And I realised that the people that I thought were there for me

forever basically just weren't and they all just were very judgmental about it. I felt the need to set myself apart from all of those people from my past in a very big way which to be honest I felt just as lonely without them as I did when they were in my life. Loneliness feels like, I want to say empty, because that is the most obvious metaphor to me. But I actually think it's maybe the opposite of like, you're so full, but there's no one around you to share that fullness with. And it can't come out. That's actually really hard to listen to. Bethan, is that something that's a bit too close to home for you in terms of what they were describing?

Well, actually, firstly, I just wanted to acknowledge this project. So it's one that's close to us and it came out from the Loneliness Lab. So Irene and Tessa, the artists that have done this work. And I think what they found is, yes, these are really raw stories to hear and through exhibiting these stories what they've found is that yes, they are difficult for people to hear but actually it's really important for us to understand that loneliness does come in so many different forms

and does affect us in so many different ways and what the project has has led to is that people hear these stories feel that they can see themselves in some part of somebody's story and then go and seek out solutions to to tackling their own loneliness so um you know it might be difficult to hear these things but it's a really important part of the stigma piece and you know helping people identify and find help. I wonder whether your 20s are perhaps the toughest time. This is an email from a listener who says, I think I felt most lonely from when I left home when I was 16 until my early 30s.

The first few years were really hell. I think the 20s are the hardest times in our lives. We think we're adults. We're suddenly removed from our family, assuming it was in any way loving, and yet it's in our 20s when we're really trying to work ourselves and our lives out. And sometimes working your life out can be a tough call. There were so many emails, and thank you for them. This listener says, I work as a cop. Loneliness can lead to mental health issues,

which we are working on, on our Blue Light Network. Whenever I feel lonely, I walk my dogs. I've got four of them who all know when I need a nudge. So if you can't have a dog, go and walk somebody else's or walk one from a charity and your loneliness will literally disappear. Somebody always mentions dogs, of course. And why not? Because dogs are fabulous. This other listener listener why on earth

would anyone not admit to loneliness i am desperately lonely i think men tend to be more so i'm caring for an elderly parent and i'm trapped if it wasn't for emailing the bbc although that tends to be rather one-sided and tinder i would hardly speak to anyone says that listener so there you go another that's just a real life experience. Another view, my solution was to move from a faceless road to a house a couple of miles away. My new home has a community with a social life, book groups, yoga classes and a WI. It means I have lots of nodding acquaintances, people to share books with, people to meet at classes. My life is transformed. Bethan, you're nodding at that.

I mean, not all of us can transform our lives, but there's somebody who's taken a chance and it's worked out for them. Yeah, I think it's really heartening to hear that story. And I think that what you just said is not all of us can transform our lives. And that's why it's so important that we start to understand, you know, how the built environment and housing and the way we're designing communities actually can contribute to people's loneliness so through the lab we met a lady she'd been living in the same social housing block for 25 years had a really wonderful community around her and was

had to move to a different and newer block and she just moved six months ago she loved everything about her new flat it had brilliant laminate flooring and a balcony and she loved the central heating. But she hadn't seen a neighbour for six months. So she'd gone from a community where she knew everyone to one where she didn't even see someone to say hello to. And that's really important that we understand that and implement that into policy. Yes, absolutely. Pamela, how aware are planners and society, people who build societies and communities generally, how aware are they of the need for connection, of making it a in that, beginning to get people to think about, you know, the actual architectural landscape and how that influences. You know, but just building areas where people can make those connections,

you know, where they accidentally bump into one another. It's fundamentally important. And I think, again, if we've got loneliness as a conversation on the agenda, what we should start seeing is big changes, I would hope. Yeah, I must put it to you, Diana, that at least one listener has tweeted to say, why didn't Jane ask the minister why she is the third minister in two years? So I'm asking you, if this is such a priority for the government, why have the ministers changed so frequently? It doesn't suggest it is a priority, really, does it? Well, I think a lot of ministers have changed recently.

Oh, indeed. But? The point stands. Absolutely. And I am in the process of supergluing myself to my office ahead of the reshuffle. Which is coming, I hope, later this week. Yeah, exactly. Okay, so you're not going to be moved? Well, who knows?

A lot of people are mentioning... I very much hope not, though. No, okay, good. I mean, it is important. Yeah, just because I care deeply about it. I don't doubt it. be moved well who knows a lot of people are mentioning very much hope not though no okay good because i mean it's it is important just because i care deeply about it i don't doubt it um people are also mentioning the absence of a local shop by the way and how crucial local shops can be was it kim who wants to come in if i can just pick up on that the infrastructure of towns and villages it is really important it's really good that bethans doing that work on it because you're right with you know the places where there are opportunities for us to naturally interact with with people and particularly you know people of difference as well that's the other thing I would say and that's why we do the campaign that we do

through the Jo Cox Foundation we do the Great Get Together because those opportunities are not there in the same way that they used to be whether that's the the reduced role of religion whether it's pubs closing whether it's lack of you know community centres whatever it is the natural opportunities for us to come together are just not there. And I think housing is a factor. It used to be traditionally terraced houses, so everybody did know each other. And now we're more isolated.

So there is something there fundamentally about the structure of our communities that does need to be explored. I know in terms of capitalism, why we have self-service tills. And I'm in no position to start a one-woman campaign to shut down all self-service tills in supermarkets and shops. Well, I'm happy to join you, Jane.

I do think they're a massive problem. They are massive. Same with banks. You know, the banks buy us now. You know, there's very few cashiers. It's all automated. It's all machines. I want to speak to somebody. Yeah, too right. Okay. Maybe we could just, on the quiet, start that campaign. I really want to talk about carers.

Here's an email from a listener who says, I'm caring for my husband. He cannot speak and doesn't communicate. It has become very, very lonely and has been for several years. I do wish my neighbours would be in touch and maybe visit occasionally. We're all pretty independent in the road, but we do get on. I think they would like to respond and be more neighbourly if they had some idea of the situation. Well, I wish I could read your name out so maybe

your neighbours would know who you were, but I absolutely take that point. Sarah is our next contributor. She's somebody I spoke to last week. She's 71 and she has retired for the second time recently, and that's significant. She's retired for the second time recently and that's significant she retired she's retired for the second time she was a single parent working full-time and she really misses the structure that her working life offered her i'd had the social contact with my colleagues i'd felt that i was doing something useful i felt i had a purpose i'd you know felt i had the status of being in work. I was earning money. To be honest, that wasn't the main reason that I was going back to work.

It was more for the structure. I need structure in my week to kind of feel, well, really to feel OK. There are a couple of days that I do things, maybe three out of seven. Where you have something planned? Yes. So an appointment or an event or a group? Yeah, a group really. Right.

It's group things. They are mostly to do with being outdoors because one day I do conservation, one day I go walking. So if the weather is really bad, then, you know, I'm left with this, feels like this desert of a day. What do I do if I can't go to those things? What do you do? That's difficult to answer. I mean, sometimes I go into town and maybe go and look at an exhibition or something. But I can get to the point where I just feel, I can't.

I haven't got the energy, so I just faff about on the internet. I don't do very much, really. Is there a time of day or a time of week when it hits you more than any other time? I used to find Sundays very difficult, but I now, and partly because of that, I actually started attending a local church. And, you know, if I'm honest, it was as much to do with having the social contact as it was to do with any faith.

I can also find bank holidays can be really difficult. That period between Christmas and New Year I found quite hard. I think I was starting to be anxious about this stage of my life before it happened because I think I was aware that I hadn't really invested much in friendships, that I was in a way too busy running the house, keeping everything juggling as you do as a single parent. I've never been someone who I thought I had a lot of friends, so I was aware that this was potentially going to be tricky. And what about, do you mind me asking about your children?

Where are they? Well, my daughters live nearby, but they're both quite busy people. They've got full-time jobs and partners and friends, and I am in contact with them every two or three weeks. But, you know, if I'm having a day that I'm finding quite difficult, I wouldn't contact them. They'd both be at work and it would feel quite unfair. I haven't wanted to say anything to my daughters about feeling lonely

because they'd then feel that they had to ring me up regularly and I don't want them to feel that. She's really agonising over that, isn't she? That was the voice of Sarah who I talked to last week. Pamela, can we just have some advice? What should somebody in Sarah's position do? Yeah, I mean, what's coming through in quite a lot of these discussions is this idea of being a burden on somebody else.

So not being able to talk about feeling lonely. And I think it is about doing that. It is about asking for support and help and advice um because yeah you're not going to be a burden to other people I'm quite sure if Sarah talked to her daughters her daughters would be wanting to offer that support would be wanting to come round you know and I can imagine that also you know the idea of you know the person who talked about the fact that they're they're at home with their sick husband, they're caring all the time. Actually, that person, if they were to speak to their neighbours, I'm quite sure that the neighbours would want to come round for coffee.

I'm sort of a bit cross with her neighbours, without knowing her neighbours. I'm kind of just thinking, I'll repeat, have they really not wondered what was going on? They might not want to interfere. That's the problem. That's what's so difficult about these situations. We don't know what those other people are feeling. And actually, they might feel they don't want to get in the way. So actually asking for support from them, you know, do you want to come in for coffee?

And setting up that relationship actually could really help. Diana? And I think it is a two-way street though, isn't it? Because equally, the neighbours could also say, you may have all the support in the world that you need, but if ever you need me, I'm down the road. So I think it can go in both directions. If I may, one of the things that's really struck me

in the short time that I've been Minister of Loneliness is just the number of local activities that are happening and the number of people who are taking initiatives, many of them, funnily enough, connected to, you know, food, nature, all the things that historically have kind of connected us dogs, obviously, being Britain. And so we are trying to help those at the moment together with the big lottery by giving what we call micro grants, so very small amounts of money, which mean that the board game club can buy the board games or the men in sheds can put out a flyer locally and say, we've got men in sheds or whatever it might be so um i think that sort of ultra local help needs to be bolstered and encouraged many sheds sounds intriguing um am i assuming i can't join men in sheds well what is it well men in sheds are uh usually

um a shed with some kind of um equipment in for mending things quite often. A number of them. One I visited in Birmingham is definitely men and women. People in sheds. People in sheds. Yeah, OK. But I think the key is to find something that you enjoy doing. It doesn't have to, it shouldn't, in my opinion,

have a label over the door that says lonely people enter here. Well, again, because it can't, can it? It can't, because there'll be a lot of people who won't go through. But if it says you used to love walking, come walking with me in Stoke, then there's a fantastic woman in Stoke doing just that. Okay, well, I'm delighted that they are. Pamela, what about giving up the structure of work? Because there's no doubt work offers a rather comforting structure, doesn't it? Yeah. And we find this a lot that when people retire and they haven't actually replaced work, if you like, with hobbies or with new relationships. Yeah, it's such a really big hit. You know, you're finding yourself on your own a lot of the time.

You haven't got those conversations with other people so it is a time when we see increases in loneliness um and i think it is it's about trying to get things in place before you retire so that you've got things to do and i like the idea of kind of joining joining clubs where you've got something in common with other people of course what's great about that is you've got a conversation opener. You know, if you're going walking, you can talk about the walks that you've previously done and so on. So that's quite nice.

But, yes, certainly, and also the weekend. It's not just people who've retired, but the weekend can be a really difficult time for people who have got a very structured working week. Yes, that's true. The other thing I would say in terms of the lack of structure of work is volunteering is another really powerful way of maintaining a sense of identity and having a purpose.

I mean, a lot of the stuff that we do through Jo's Foundation at a local level is, I would say 90% is volunteers. This is people who want to do something good in the community, but also actually it gives them a really good opportunity to be around people and to have some of that structure and so that's really powerful the other thing i would say again just picking up on what got said before you know about about feeling like you're a burden you know i've had to learn and it's been a difficult thing for me to learn but it's actually a real strength to ask for help and i'm not very good at it but i've had to understand that you, people do want to help generally.

So, you know, whether it's loneliness or any other issue that you're facing, we have to view asking for help and support as a strength. Josephine on Twitter says, I recommend that listeners check out their WI. Well, I don't think there are. There can't be many Women's Hour listeners who haven't some connection or haven't had some family connection to the WI. I have made so many friends, says Josephine, at my Seven Hills WI since I moved to Sheffield. We've got spin-off groups, we go out for meals, loads of chances to connect with like-minded women. But I keep going back to this. If you are a carer and you can't get out of the house,

I actually don't see how you can take advantage of any of these wonderful opportunities. Kim, what are you doing to reach out to those people? Yeah, I think that's a really good point. If you are housebound, if you're stuck at home for long periods of time, I suppose what you need to do is trying to get a network that can come to you. I mean, one thing we did, we did a winter campaign called Mince Pie Moments, which was about loneliness and sort of our great win to get together. And again, that is the opportunity. I think asking for for help inviting people into your home if you're struggling is one thing and also just the very simple thing as we we've alluded to just knocking on your neighbor's doors and what we did with the mince pie moments campaign it

provided a platform because i think you're right sometimes we don't want to be feel like we're interfering and intruding but actually if you say look you know just checking everything's all right you want to get together have a cup of tea and a mince pie or you know whatever it is at the rest of the time of the year and stuff. So I think there's got to be a two-way process there in terms of carers not being afraid to ask for help, invite somebody into your home, and then the rest of the street maybe just checking

to make sure everybody is all right. Bethan? With people who are isolated at home, yeah, I think it is, I mean, obviously the hardest kind of group to reach, but i think it's back to this um you know there's there's some really great initiatives i think good gym is one that is particularly great for younger what's that called it's called good gym um so it's a really nice initiative that um it it sort of encourages people who maybe need an incentive to go out and go running in the morning that your your your daily run is to actually go and visit someone who's who can't leave the house

for some reason so that's a great idea yeah so they get a visit from you and you know you get your exercise and you have to go because if you don't put your trainers on and go then somebody's going to be depending on you to get the paper or whatever it is. So there are really great initiatives out there like that. Pamela, what we can't do, none of us would ever dismiss loneliness. And I think we established at the beginning that if you haven't already felt it, you are going to because life is going to throw all sorts of stuff at you. It's going to be you one day, not the old lady across the road. That old lady could well end up being you.

So by acknowledging all that, Pamela, how do we go about changing things? Well, I suppose what I would like to say is I'm not so sure we want to eradicate loneliness. I think loneliness is actually a really good response to we assess our social lives and we want to change that in some way. So I know it's really, really painful experience. But for most of us, it is transitory. So we're able to, we're able to realise that we want to change something about our social world. And most of us will do that. And we will do that successfully. So I don't think we want to eradicate it. But I think what we do need to do is to be a lot more supportive and a lot kinder to each other, and make sure that we're supporting one another and checking on each other. So I think

that's what I would like to say as a final point. Professor Pamela Coulter, also involved in that conversation, the current England Minister for Loneliness, Baroness Diana Barron, although, as she says, there is a reshuffle this week, Bethan Harris from the Loneliness Lab, and Kim Ledbetter, Jo Cox's sister. She is from the Jo Cox Foundation, which did such a huge amount to kickstart a proper public conversation

about loneliness and social isolation. It's important to say that we did mention during the course of the programme the Chatty Cafe scheme, and we understand that that website crashed during the programme today because so many people were interested in that. It's just a way of going to a public place, a cafe in this instance, and there are opportunities in that setting

to chat to people, just people you might not know, won't have met before. It sounds like a brilliant idea. And there were a few other schemes, I thought, and ideas across the programme that were new to me and just seemed to be pretty exciting and innovative stuff. Angela says, no one mentioned those of us who don't have a family. I think our society is very family orientated.

One prime minister used to refer all the time to hardworking families, and it made me feel as if I didn't exist. Could there be more awareness that not everybody has a family, but we still have a right to exist in our own right? And this from another listener. I work at home. I'm on my own at home, but I play an online game with a chat room. And I've noticed that many people playing the game are bedbound, housebound, and for whom visits from carers or trips to hospital appointments may be their only form of contact apart from the chat

room in the game i hadn't really appreciated this until i started playing it we're all anonymous but since i realized how many people on there are quite isolated i've made a point of being really friendly and caring on the forum i wonder how many people rely on the internet for companionship. I suspect a great many, actually. This from another listener. In today's climate, many people have become hesitant about touch, which I think is really important. There is nothing like a warm hug from a friend or even just a gentle touch on an arm or a hand.

And regarding the emptiness of a weekend or a bank holiday when friends are taken up with family, well, I do housework. It leaves me free in the week to get out and about and it works for me. I've got to say, whilst it might work for you, I'm not sure it would be a solution for everybody, but yeah, it's an option, I guess. I think this is interesting. It's from a male listener who says, I might have missed you discussing this, but did no one mention how we prepare our children? Loneliness is often related to a lack of confidence. Might improving opportunities to develop confidence

in social situations in schools through more music, drama and sport be a way forward? Yeah, that's a possibility. Also, maybe we should just include in PSHE, those lessons at school, that actually young people should be aware that loneliness is going to happen. So don't be surprised when it does

because life can, as I said in the programme, throw all kinds of challenges at you. No one is going to be 100% happy and cheerful for 100% of their life. It just won't happen. This is from another male listener. I enjoyed that conversation, but I wonder if you're missing an important point, which is that a great number of people are not interested in making contact with someone they don't know.

Time and again, I'm ignored by people in the street, in offices, on transport or in the gym. Often they're on phones and tablets, sometimes both. It's actually really difficult to make any connection with people who never look up and are clasped by those giant headphones. There are even more of these everywhere, of all ages. It's got to the point when I think twice about holding a door open for somebody in case I'm completely ignored. I'd rather be lonely than experience such moments, says that listener.

And I'm really sending warm regards, I'm not sure it'll help much, to this listener who says, I am nearly 79. I live on my own in a village and I'm going through chemotherapy right now. I'm concerned about other people undergoing chemo who live on their own. It is horrendous and it affects the brain and mood and emotion uncontrollably. Fortunately, I do have a very supportive community around and good friends near and far, Alaska, Australia and Italy. But nevertheless, I'm sure that listener can occasionally find things tough. And I'm glad that you have got a decent amount of support around locally,

and indeed across the globe. Our very best wishes to you. This listener says, I'm a busy mum doing the school run, then rushing to work by car. Before I had children, life moved at a slightly slower pace and I went by train. I enjoyed chatting to people on the platform. Some of them turned out to live nearby and we would then smile and chat when we met in the street or in the local shops. Another listener, my husband is a heating engineer, and this is interesting, and he often visits the home of elderly, very nice, single people. He's heard them explain to him on a number of occasions that people don't visit them due to new parking restrictions.

They don't live near any conveniently situated public transport and they're suffering as a direct consequence. I want you to tell this to the Minister for Loneliness as often local government parking restrictions can cause real problems. Well, to that listener, I mentioned exactly that to Diana Barron when she was here. So she does know. And I don't think parking restrictions had crossed her mind before. But again, it's a really important point.

When my children were very small and I was waiting to cross the road with another woman in the same boat, we chatted and discovered that we lived seven doors apart. So we joined each other for coffee. It led to a Monday morning coffee group of other mothers who we found in our road in different houses. Our children are now in their 40s. I've moved miles away, but the original two of us are still in touch. Now I'm old enough, I've found the University of the Third Age to be a good place to make friends, and there is nothing which beats dog walking for meeting people. Yeah, as I say, dogs are always involved somehow. And this is a very sad one from a very young listener who is only 16 and they say that their

loneliness has caused them to lose two good friends because they say they were clingy, possessive and insecure. And they go on, I know I'm doing it and I tell myself to stop, but sometimes I just couldn't help it. It's had a huge impact on my self-esteem because I came to hate myself for having this loneliness and for pushing them away. And it's led to me having anxiety attacks, including vomiting every morning and really depressed moods.

There's not a lot we can do to help beyond saying that we've seen the email and I've certainly read it and I'm just sending lots of love to you. Listen, things are going to get better. You're only 16. Your teens are tough and life does progress from there. I just want to let you know that because I think it's important. Honestly, if you can possibly help it, try and focus on the wonderful possibilities that genuinely lie ahead for you. Here's a listener who says, I'm 25. I've got two young children. I live about an hour and a half away from my hometown where my family and old friends live. I relate to everybody today in that I feel lonely a lot of the time. I go to baby groups and I do try to be part of the community in other ways. Well, don't feel embarrassed. I think if this

morning's programme has proved anything, it's that you are not alone in being lonely. You really aren't. There are some links on the Women's Hour website. Again, I know, not the solution, but it's a starting point. And I hope we've just drawn wider attention to what is clearly a genuine problem in 21st century British life. Thank you for listening. I want to end on a positive note. If you were listening last week, you'd have heard Carol Dysinger, who you might recall, was the director of a documentary called Learning to Skateboard in a War Zone. Carol was brilliant because she was frankly hungover when she came on the programme and she acknowledged it because she'd just come in fresh from the BAFTAs. Lord knows

what our hangover's like today because she's won an Oscar as well. So, Carol, best wishes to you. Congratulations. It was a very moving film about young women in Afghanistan skateboarding and getting a taste of freedom, if nothing else. So, well done to her. Brilliant achievement.

We're back tomorrow. I want to talk about HRT and my colleagues so far have proved resistant. But let's see what happens, shall we? Tomorrow, two minutes past ten. If you're listening to some other podcast, then stop now and listen to a good one because the Infinite Monkey Cage is back for a new series and we're doing loads of things, aren't we, Robin?

We're going to be dealing with the science of laughter, conspiracy theories, coral reefs, quantum worlds and finally UFOs. I love UFOs. It's also, by the way, the UFO one available to watch on iPlayer. In fact, all of the series that we've done are available on BBC Sounds. I must say that I wouldn't bother with the first series. I don't think it's very good.

I wouldn't bother with the first two. Yeah. But we were played by different people then, I think, weren't we? Yeah, yeah. Melvin Bragg was you. You were Debbie McGee. Debbie McGee. Bragg and McGee.

Now that is a 1980s TV detective series that I will be making. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.