Woman's Hour - Long Covid, Holocaust Memorial Day, Princess Superstar

Episode Date: January 25, 2024

Hundreds of doctors - led by campaign group Long Covid Doctors for Action - are planning to sue the NHS over claims that inadequate PPE provision has left them with Long Covid, according to Sky News. One of those, Dr Nathalie MacDermott, joins Emma Barnett to discuss it. Emma is joined by the rapper Princess Superstar who, after a 30-year career, has finally hit the big time following her song, Perfect, featuring on the soundtrack for the blockbuster film Saltburn. Ahead of Holocaust Memorial Day, we speak to three Jewish women - one, a survivor who was born in a concentration camp - about how you keep teaching the lessons of the Holocaust as fewer and fewer survivors are around to tell their stories. The Chancellor Jeremy Hunt is facing pressure to fix "unfair" child benefit rules. Campaigners like Martin Lewis have called for it to be a focus of the Budget in March as he says single income families are being penalised. Emma talks to the chair of the Treasury Select Committee, the Conservative MP Harriet Baldwin, and Tom Waters from the Institute for Fiscal Studies.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Please note that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Princess Superstar, the rapper behind that song after three decades in the industry, is finally having her big moment, aged 52, courtesy of being featured in the hot and hotly debated film Salt Burn. I'll be talking to her shortly, but great excuse to ask you,

what success in your life have you waited for? And that when it comes, perhaps it tastes even sweeter due to the wait and the winding road to get there. Or maybe it was extremely frustrating indeed. We'll see how she feels about that. Not known for her mincing her words, we'll hear from Princess Superstar shortly. But let me hear from you in the meantime.

The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media, our BBC Women's Hour, or email me if you'd like through the Women's Hour website or 03700 100 444 to send me a WhatsApp message or voice note. And speaking of people who felt written off perhaps by their industry and their peers and keeping with music as it happens, this conversation gives me the opportunity to wish a big congratulations to the singer-songwriter Ray. Isn't she brilliant? If you don't know, you will know. Check her out. She's received a whopping

seven Brit Award nominations. That's a new record for one artist in a single year and it's worth bringing up here on Woman's Hour because that is in stark contrast to last year where, if you remember, there was an all-male best artist line-up after the merging of the best British male and female categories. And she said at that moment, Ray, as far as the industry was

concerned, I was down and out. Never in my wildest dreams would I think that trying again would mean seven Brit nominations. When have you waited for something? I mean, to be honest, she does seem a bit older with her glamour and her style. She's actually in her, I think she's 26, 27 years old. So maybe she's not waited as long, certainly not as long as Princess Superstar aged 52. But what have you waited for? When have you been written written off and what has happened when you have come back or done something people haven't expected or you've had to wait for some success do let me know also on today's program we will be looking at why some are arguing child

benefit needs a drastic overhaul and hoping that the chancellor will take notice and ahead of holocaust memorial day which is this weekend We will explore why this year's commemorations may feel different and I'll be joined by a survivor who, in an extraordinary story and reality for her, took her first breath in a concentration camp. All that to come and more and get your messages in if you have something to say at any point during the programme. Now, first, to come to this, we know women are more likely to suffer from long COVID and now the experience of female doctors who worked on the front line is in the news

and, of course, of male doctors too. But we're going to hear from somebody who's got first-hand experience of this this morning because today Sky News is reporting that hundreds of doctors led by the campaign group Long Covid Doctors for Action, are planning to sue the NHS over claims that inadequate PPE provision has left them with the condition. One of them, Dr Natalie McDermott, says Covid has left her with spinal damage. She raised concerns about a lack of PPE during the pandemic and says she was ignored. From the

ongoing inquiry, we know from Women's voices in the pandemic planning, we know about them being sidelined. It's a topic we've covered previously on the programme. You may remember the former Deputy Cabinet Secretary, Helen McNamara, said that a macho culture in Downing Street harmed the UK's response to the COVID pandemic and that female experts were ignored. Let me welcome to the programme, Dr Natalie McDermott. Good morning. Good morning. What do you know of how you caught COVID? Well I know that I caught COVID at work because at the time of the pandemic I was

single and living alone and driving to work so I had no exposure outside of work. I even had my shopping delivered even pre-pandemic. So I hadn't been to a supermarket even. And I know that the first time I got COVID at work, it was through sharing an office, a very small office with a colleague who tested positive for COVID the following day. At that time, we weren't permitted to wear masks in our work spaces. We were on the wards, but not in our office spaces. So that was the first time I got COVID at the end of March of 2020. And I did return to work after that. But at the end of May 2020, whilst working on a COVID ward with inadequate personal protective equipment and only surgical face masks to protect us, I got COVID again. And following that is when I developed the neurological problems I have now.

Could you tell us about those before we go back to what you're talking about today and what you're hoping to achieve? What are those complications? So it started with nerve pain in my feet, but it progressed over a number of months. And now it really limits my ability to walk. I walk with crutches and then only short distances. I need a mobility scooter to move longer distances. And it's also affected my bladder and my bowel. And I have frequent pain in my legs and my feet. And how long have you been dealing with this?

Since about May, June of 2020, so three and a half years. And is that recognised as long Covid? It is recognised as a complication of Covid, yes, maybe a rarer one. We hear different symptoms, about 200 different symptoms for people with long Covid. But yes, it fits within that category. Yes. We should say, you know, you're somebody who we heard from sometimes during the pandemic, you were talking about what was going on. You're a virologist with experience in Ebola research. And have you been able to continue working? I'm one of the fortunate ones who has been able to return to work, but I really struggle to do clinical work now because of the physical demands of that. So I'm largely returned to work, but in a research capacity where I can mostly work from home at times.

So that makes it easier for me. And you've come together with other doctors, with others working in the health care world to do what? What are you trying to do? We're trying to raise awareness and ask for people to take responsibility for the decisions that were made during the pandemic. There is an elusive group called the IPC cell or the infection prevention and control cell, who we believe were part of NHS England, the NHS England pandemic strategy, who made the decisions about the personal protective equipment. And those decisions were that a higher grade of personal protective equipment was not required, even though we did have some evidence to the contrary at the time.

And even though a precautionary principle could have been applied to say, actually, we need to give people a higher grade of personal protective equipment until we know that they don't need it. And as it turns out now, we now know that we did need it. And did you raise that at the time? What were you saying or thinking at that time, especially with your experience? Yes, I did. So I only became aware because I had COVID at the end of March, I only became aware that the PPE guidance had been downgraded in around mid-March of 2020. So I only became aware of that when I returned to work on the COVID ward in April of 2020. And it came as a shock to me that I was now working on a COVID ward but only permitted to wear a surgical mask. So at that time, I did address it. I raised it with senior colleagues. I sent many emails over five weeks and I was repeatedly

dismissed. I even raised the concern that we know that lots of viruses have after effects, even if you survive them, you might have ongoing problems following them. And we didn't know what COVID could do yet. And I was still dismissed and told we didn't need a higher grade of PPE. I mentioned around from the COVID inquiry, we've heard about certainly within Downing Street, allegations of female voices being ignored during the pandemic planning, the highest levels of government. Is that a similar feeling in your position? Yes, I feel like I was ignored. I don't know if I was ignored because I was female. I think there were lots of colleagues I know that were raising concerns at the time and being dismissed.

And the problem is that no one has really been held to account for that. No one has taken responsibility. And as yet, despite us now having lots of evidence to show that COVID is spread through the airborne route, the PPE guidance still hasn't changed. So healthcare workers are still being put at risk in NHS hospitals by not being given appropriate PPE for airborne viruses. And when you were told you didn't need this, who was saying that? What was the decision chain? Well, I spoke to the head of infection control at Great Ormond Street Hospital. And I spoke to the lead nurse for infection control. And I spoke to the head of infection control at Great Ormond Street Hospital and I spoke to the lead nurse for infection control. And I even contacted the chief exec of the trust and I contacted lots of heads of departments.

So you went to lots of different heads and people you tried and the line was that's not the policy. Yeah, I was even shouted down in a meeting when I suggested that even if the scientific evidence that I had provided wasn't good enough for them, despite their side of the story or to give a response. We do have a statement. We went to NHS England for a statement, but we referred to the Department of Health. And a Department of Health and Social Care spokesperson said, throughout the pandemic, the government acted to save lives and livelihoods, prevent the NHS being overwhelmed and deliver a world leading vaccine rollout, which protected millions of lives across the nation. We've always said there are lessons to be learned from the pandemic, and we are committed to learning from the COVID-19 inquiry's findings,

which will play a key role in informing the government's planning and preparations for the future. We will consider all recommendations made to the department in full. But there will be some listening to this while they have great personal sympathy for you, Natalie, and some of them will be able to relate. We know many women, in particular with long COVID and symptoms, can relate, very sadly. But they may has the PPE guidance still not changed for NHS workers at the moment? Why was it okay for the NHS to make decisions about the PPE guidance for us that put us at risk and knowingly put us at risk? While many will say that they didn't have the evidence, they could have taken a precautionary approach. We wouldn't ask someone, a construction worker, to go onto a construction site with a broken hard hat, would we? So why is it okay for the NHS to not take responsibility and have a

duty of care to its staff to protect them when dealing with an infectious disease that could potentially take their lives? One of the arguments made about the downgrading of the PPE and the not needing a higher grade of PPE was that only 1% of people who got COVID died. Now, I don't think that's a consolation to the families of healthcare workers who died, that they were expendable in the eyes of the NHS and the government who hadn't adequately prepared with adequate PPE. I appreciate that we had shortages of PPE. I appreciate that difficult decisions had to be made. But it's not OK to lie to your staff and claim that you're protecting them when you're not.

And you know that you're not protecting them adequately. Well, could you argue that you didn't know? I mean, you know, what you're saying there is serious. I don't have anybody here to respond specifically, but it isn't just going to be the hospital you spoke about. It's going to be with this case across the NHS. You know, there will be an argument from some of those thinking what they had in place was adequate. If there's a difference between, you know, doing something and knowing and not knowing and now needing to learn. Absolutely. I completely understand that. But I think we knew that the SARS virus was spread through the airborne route.

We knew that the MERS virus is spread particularly in healthcare settings through aerosolisation of the virus. We knew that this virus was spreading on a cruise ship when everyone was isolated in their rooms, or if they went out for daily exercise, was wearing a mask. You could draw those conclusions as a scientist and act in the best interest until such time as you had good evidence to suggest you didn't need um a higher grade of ppe um i think it was evident to all those uh who were working in that environment uh that there was a high likelihood of aerosol spread. People may say they didn't know. But actually, if you want to look at the scientific evidence, the evidence was there. But for those who did know that sort of thing, and then there still wasn't a change. I mean,

could you argue we're in the middle of a national emergency, that this rather than being by design was on a huge scale, and I'm not underestimating what the impact has been, was accidental in some way. It was a situation of system over intent. I don't think there was an intent to harm people. I know, but you did just say about lying and people not taking evidence. So I'm trying to put those two together because it's quite strong words. Yes, I don't think there was intent, deliberate intent to harm. But I think there was negligence on the part of people making decisions to not act on the scientific evidence that was in front of them, and to also not choose to follow a precautionary principle and to continue to not

follow that principle now. I appreciate that people had to make difficult decisions. I've worked in an Ebola epidemic. I've had to make difficult decisions myself and I know that things aren't easy. But if you make a decision and you know that ultimately later on the evidence comes out that it's wrong, then you hold your hands up, you apologise, you say, I'm sorry, I made a mistake. And you correct that. But we haven't corrected that. What will the correction look like for you? So I know you said about the guidance changing, that could be one. But for this group of doctors in this extraordinary position of suing the NHS, where some of you will still work, apparently, I imagine, and if you can still work, I'll say that as well. Because I should say, you said you were one of the lucky ones.

Others are not able to work at the moment. What will that look like for you beyond the guidance being updated? It looks like a change moving forward. It looks like the NHS acknowledging it has a duty of care to its staff in all facets, not just the exposure to infectious diseases, a duty of care to its staff, that it provides them with adequate protective equipment, that if there were another pandemic that started tomorrow, the decision making would be different. That is what is important to me. I can't change what's happened in the past, but we can change things moving forward. And that's what needs to happen. I think also, we need to know who the members of the infection prevention and control cell were who made the decision making and we need their minutes published. We know who the members of the infection prevention and control cell were who made the decision making. And we need their minutes published. We know who made up MinervTag. We know who made up Sage. Their minutes are in the public domain.

The only minutes of the IPC cell that are in the public domain are those that have been made available through freedom of information requests. They're few and far between. They're redacted. And we still don't know who membership of that group was. How can we have an open conversation about the decisions that were made if things are still kept hidden? Just finally, thinking of, you know, our listeners with long Covid and with those symptoms. Do you think that's being taken seriously enough? And I say that again with the knowledge that we know it's we think it's more women who are in this situation. I think it's being taken more seriously, but I think there is still a lot of room for improvement within healthcare settings. The problem is we don't know the direct

cause and we don't know what treatments to use. So it's very hard to offer people solutions. But I would just like to say if there are other healthcare workers who have been affected by long COVID out there who would like to join this action, anyone is welcome. Please just visit the Bond Turner website where you can find the relevant links to join the action if you would like. And a final thought on how you feel about your future in terms of your health? I've had to come to terms with the fact that I won't necessarily be the paediatric infectious disease consultant that I hoped I would be and I am more limited in my ability to respond to disasters and epidemics overseas which was another big component of what I did and what I was passionate about. I hope to move forward in

scientific research as much as possible but I am much more limited in my capacity than I was before. Thank you for talking to us this morning. Dr Natalie McDermott explaining there the decision to come together with other doctors, other people working within healthcare under this campaign group Long COVID Doctors for Action and their plan to sue the NHS over claims that inadequate PPE provision has left them with the condition and those symptoms, in her case, and other symptoms too. You've been getting in touch during that discussion,

and please do keep doing so about anything you hear on the programme, to talk to us about and talk to me about the idea of what you've had to wait for in your life. Perhaps something's come a bit later to you. There's some really lovely examples here. This is ahead of my discussion with a musician who's having some some big success now she's waited quite a while for but let me read you a couple of your messages first hello after witnessing each of my three daughters graduate from university i decided to quit my job and go and study myself last summer aged 57 i graduated with a first class honors degree in fine art my three girls were

there to share the experience as george elliott said it is never too late to be what you are supposed to be, says Eliza. Good morning to you. I joined a choir in my late 40s. I started to aspire to solo singing and was told by the musical director to give up on the idea of solo singing. Well, that was like red rag to a bull.

Many lessons, courses, performances and experiences later, I finally started to pick up regular paid work as a soloist in my 50s. Amazing what being actively discouraged can do for your determination, says Nicola. Thank you for that. Well, my next guest did start her career in the New York rap scene in the 90s, but it has taken Princess Superstar three decades, eight studio albums, and now featuring on a blockbuster Hollywood film soundtrack to finally get her big moment in the spotlight. There have been moments along the way,

but let's call this perhaps the biggest. Her song Perfect, originally released in 2007, is featured in the film Salt Burn, Discuss. Definitely wasn't for me the second half, first half fine. Just starring Rosamund Pike and Carey Mulligan. And the track is now back in the UK charts and has debuted on the US Billboard chart for the first time. Princess superstar, or to give you her real name, Conchita Kirshner,

joins me live from LA. She stayed up pretty late. Thank you for that. Welcome to Woman's Hour. It's great to be here. Congratulations. I feel like I should start with that. Can I say that? Oh, you can, you can. Like you said, it's a long time coming. How does that feel? I mean, it's epic. It feels amazing. I mean, it's so sweet, right? The gratitude is there. It's different than when you get successful in your 30s, which I did, you know, I had bad babysitter over there and then perfect. But there's a sweetness to it that, you know, you were touching on.

Yeah, I bet. And also, you know, in an unexpected way for this to come, I imagine. I believe. What was it like when you were asked if they if the film could use your music? Well, look, you know, it was the biggest surprise. And the fact that it happened over Christmas was like really fun, too. It was like the best Christmas gift. But when they asked me, I was like, oh, yeah, sure. And like, I don't know, being like American, I didn't really recognize the name except for the names on the sheet, you know, where they say who's going to be in the movie. I recognize Richard Grant.

But other than that, I didn't recognize the names. And I was like, yeah, yeah. Like people ask that, I didn't recognize the names. And I was like, yeah, yeah, like people asked me to use this song all the time. So, you know, it wasn't like anything special. But there you go. It was and it has been and it's like life changing. Yeah. How is it life changing? What does that mean in your world? So, you know, I am I actually never stopped making music. I kept putting it out, but nobody listened to it. It's sort of like my career sort of just like went down after the two hits, you know, but I kept going anyway, because I had to because it was my passion. But it was

pretty painful where, you know, you'd put something out and nobody would listen to it, or your numbers would be so low. And you'd be like, oh, my gosh, especially when you had had success and you know what it's supposed to be. But what I'm finding is happening now is basically my career being handed back to me, like everything from managers, lawyers, booking agents, publishing deals, record deals. I mean, it is like in a snap, my whole career came back to me. But because I never stopped doing my passion, I was ready. You know, they say that success is when luck meets preparation. And I was prepared. I wasn't just like lying around feeling sorry for myself, although I did have those moments.

I was gonna say, it must be pretty hard when you put something out in the world and and you see few have engaged with it and that's not the hope yeah yeah it is hard but it's like you know if anything I'd love to be an inspiration to people to just keep doing their passion keep doing what they love like and who cares maybe three people maybe three million will listen to it or see it or whatever. Yeah. Well, and also, you know, the idea is you're like, hello, I've still been here. You know, welcome, welcome back to the party or welcome to to it for the first time. But there is a backstory here because I understand you weren't happy with how the song was originally promoted. Yeah. Tell us about that. Yeah, that was that was kind of I think part of why I kind of lost my career in a way um is because um the record label uh Ministry of Sound you know they made this video

without me they cast it with models and in the contract I had had creative control but instead they put these like three models lip-syncing to. And not only did they do that, but they sent the three models on tour as Princess Superstar. Like it was just like a real shady dance music era where they would just do crazy stuff like that. So people knew me from Bad Babysitter, but then they didn't actually know that I was the one that sang perfect. There was like a disconnect right in the branding as an artist. So that was kind of devastating. But look, 17 years later, I get to tell my story on TikTok and Instagram and everything.

That didn't exist then. No, it didn't. I mean, we approached Sony, who now run Ministry of Sound Records. We haven't had a response on that. But I suspect having yourself not in the music video and having been written out of that in some ways, this might make this success even sweeter. Oh, 100% because it's like, it's kind of like healing where I can like, oh, I can tell my story now, you know, and, and it's, yeah, and

it's, it's my success. And like you mentioned, what was interesting, even though I've been going for 30 years, I've never actually been on the US billboard charts, never. And here I am age 52 on the US billboard charts, you know, as a woman, which is like even more amazing. Well, yeah, a woman in your 50s rapping, there aren't that many women who occupy that space. Yeah, I don't think there are any unless they're lying, you know, I like to just tell the truth. And, you know, as a white woman coming to rap, has that been an interesting journey? Oh, for sure. I mean, especially I started in the 90s, where nobody was doing it, right. But I don't want to be like, oh, I'm white and hip hop. Like, you know, it's not really a good look. But it was

hard. I mean, for me, I just wanted to do it because there were ways that you could express yourself with hip hop that you can't do when you're singing. And I love words. You know, I always just love words. And so that's why I went into it. And the love of hip hop, obviously. So I just fought that uphill battle for sure, because I wasn't really taken seriously, as you can imagine. But again, like, I'm very grateful for my whole career, you know, even the downs, right? Because that that leads to gratitude. Now. now. Well, we're also getting some lovely messages in from people who have waited for a moment or tried to have a moment or carried on with something when people are not necessarily engaging. And Saltburn, have you seen it? Yeah. Where are you? It's become quite the debate. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I thought it was like brilliantly written. And I think, you know, some of the like sexy scenes, I was like, oh, my God.

Oh, my God. What? What? And I'm, you know, everyone knows me, bad babysitter. I'm pretty cheeky, you know, like I was shocked. But I guess like I guess the one thing is, is that I don't really like like celebrating murder. You know, like I feel like that's probably not a good thing to do in this day and age to celebrate that. And there is some sort of obsession in our media with that.

But otherwise, I thought it was brilliantly done. I mean, brilliant. Yeah. Well, not too many spoilers in there, but I suppose you're speaking to the debate around what people felt. As our film critic said yesterday, Karen Krasanovic was on the program. It was one of two halves for her. And that's how some people felt about it, where it went and where it began. But your music is at the heart of one of the brilliant scenes in it. Princess Superstar, congratulations. We'll put it like that and enjoy this moment. And I hope there are more to come for

you. Yeah, thank you so much. It's been lovely to talk. Lovely to talk to you. I know you see, you can hear, you hear what's going on there. And also with the music, it's an interesting one to think about when something doesn't come easy and it's her song, Perfect, which we played a little bit at the beginning of the program. A message here. I graduated in November, having completed an MA in fine arts. I'm 58 and I've also graduated with my children. I've tried to become a teacher when I left school but I got married halfway through my course and failed to qualify. 20 years on with a family and a degree my husband suggested I do a PGCE and give it another try. I did and I worked as a teacher for about 20 years and loved it. It was all the

sweeter for having had to wait. Now retired and still married to the same lovely man. Win, win. I always wanted to get a book published by the age of 70. And last May, my narrative nonfiction account of my Jewish family's flight from wartime Vienna to Shanghai was published. I was 69 and the success felt all the sweeter for waiting so long, says Rachel. I had no idea that that message was going to come in, but it does tie pretty neatly, I have to say, to what we're next going to talk about because it is Holocaust Memorial Day on Saturday. And this year it comes in the midst of rising levels of antisemitism, both here in the UK and around the world. Today on Woman's Hour, we're going to focus on how the Holocaust has impacted the lives of British Jewish women down the generations, and in particular,

the role of intergenerational trauma and fear for a new generation of Jews. With each year that comes around, fewer and fewer survivors of the Holocaust remain to tell their story of the suffering they experienced at the hands of the Nazis during World War II. But today I am joined by a survivor, Eva Clark, who was born in a concentration camp in Austria in 1945. Fifteen of her families died in Auschwitz-Birkenau, including her father. After the war in 1948, she found sanctuary in the UK. I'm also joined by Emily Ullman-Hurt,

a psychologist and author of the study Third Generation Narratives of the Holocaust, and the chief executive of the Holocaust Education Trust, Karen Pollock. Both of those I'll come to shortly. But Eva, if I may come to you. Good morning. Good morning to you. It's nice to see you again. It's good to talk to you. We have spoken before because your story went into a book. We've spoken as well in light of Holocaust Memorial Day. But yours is an extraordinary story as one of only three babies born in a concentration camp, in your concentration camp that you were in, Mauthausen, if I could call it that, who survived the Holocaust. It's an extraordinary place to take your first breath.

Indeed it is. And it was a complete shock when I found out that there were two other babies who'd been born almost at the same time in the same circumstances and none of the mothers knew one another. But as my mother always said, luck had an awful lot to do with our survival. And she said that if it hadn't been for the fact that the Germans had run out of gas on the 28th of April 1945, I wouldn't be talking to you now because my birthday is the 29th. The other reason why we survived indirect is because Hitler committed suicide on the 30th. But the last and the best reason why we survived was because on the 5th of May,

the American army liberated the camp. My mother reckoned she wouldn't have lasted much longer. She weighed five stone, 35 kilograms, and was nine months pregnant. What has she told you about being pregnant in a concentration camp and also giving birth? How long have you got? Not as long as many people would like to be able to hear but I suppose just to get a sense of her because it was her as the adult in this scenario would be appropriate as we approach the Memorial Day. Well my mother was amongst the survivors who was always able to talk about her experiences. And she did very freely. And I think although she never used the word cathartic, I think it must have been cathartic for her. And she told me very gradually in tiny

snippets, as she felt that I could cope with the details. And my mother was a very, very positive person, very, very optimistic. She'd had a very happy, secure growing up in Czechoslovakia. And she just told the facts as they were. And she also said that in one sense, immediately after the war, she didn't have time to grieve for all the members of the family who had been killed because she was the only person I had

and she just had to get on with life to support me. Sorry, I don't know that I've answered your question. You have, you have. I think just to get a sense of her and and how she spoke to you and and and how has this uh impacted your life and shaped your life because some survivors you're in this rare position where you were a baby it's it's not quite the same as when you choose to then speak about something is it no no it isn't and um you, I feel, well, I feel very fortunate

about everything in my life. But my mother was very pleased when I began to talk in schools because although she had been interviewed dozens of times, she said, oh, that's such a relief. I don't have to do it anymore. But she felt sort of an obligation to talk about it, to try to prevent similar things happening again. And in that vein, she told me, and people always ask, how has this influenced my life? And I find that a very sort of chicken and egg question, because I don't know how

differently I might have turned out if I didn't have this background. I come from a very ordinary, middle class, liberal Jewish family, non-religious. And I would have hoped that I would have turned out similarly, even without this background. But obviously it does, it must have had some sort of influence. And I hope, I hope and I assume that it has made me that perhaps that bit more tolerant and respectful of other communities, other races, you know, of everybody, because we should all, I think, we should all think of people as individuals, not to think of people en masse.

Emily, let me bring you in at this point. As a psychologist, you've looked at how trauma moves through the generation, specifically in the Jewish community, and we're talking in light of Holocaust Memorial Day. What have you found? Hi there. Thanks for having me. So one of the things that really we found is the old way of looking at this was the look of a pathology that might be transmitted through generations,

to look at things like complex PTSD or insecure attachments, the ways that there's some indicators of damage in second and third generations. And what I found, joining a growing body of evidence, is that it's not these sort of indicators of damage. It's rather more experiences of survivorship and adaptation to extreme trauma that gets passed down. It's people learn how to survive in the extreme circumstances that their ancestors went through. It's a bit like if I have a client sitting in front of me, I'm not really asking what's wrong with you. I'm asking, you know, what happens in your life that you've adapted to and you've responded to and it's very much the same with the second and third generation holocaust survivors that they've been busy in their own different ways and I must say as well you know we can't homogenize a

generation just as experiences of holocaust survivors vary immensely though do the ways in which the families have dealt with and been impacted by the Holocaust. But what we can say is that particularly my generation, the third generation, the participants I interviewed in my research have been very busy doing what we might call the kind of emotional work of processing and integrating some of this trauma, you could say. What does that look like in day-to-day life? Do you think we're talking specifically about perhaps Jewish women and raising families and how you feel as a people and some participants in my study felt quite preoccupied with their histories they felt it was burdensome on their lives I had one participant who would say you know my grandfather survived by a miracle you know it's a bit like

you said you felt you know that luck was in there right um he was a sort of a skinny adolescent in our it's a miracle I'm here and therefore i must really make use of my life in in some ways and i must you know do well and you know so that can be quite burdensome that sense of perfectionism um other ways it might be a sort of a feeling of disconnect from one's one's history feeling literally kind of stumped at being able to really um connect with ancestors that were killed and not really have that sort of family narrative but the the emotional work I'm talking about has been about you know how do this generation build a narrative make sense of those experiences so that something can be processed and understood and that might be about you know creating their own story and finding things out from family members

getting a sense of how they might be impacted in their lives as a way to give themselves sort of choice about what sort of things that they might continue and even pass to the fourth generation and what they don't want to. Yes, I mean, I mentioned as well, though, this year, it might be a slightly different day in some ways. and I wanted at this point to to bring in Karen Pollock because talking about this year's Holocaust Memorial Day as chief executive of the Holocaust Education Trust do you think it will feel different after the the attacks the killing the taking of hostages in Israel on October the 7th by Hamas? Well, I think it does feel different because every year we come together

and we remember what happened during the Holocaust and we say, you know, never again. And there's a feeling of that ringing a bit hollow when we've just witnessed, you know, genocidal terrorists, an intent against the Jewish people. That's their ideology, Hamas's ideology. And I think it's shaken Jewish people around the world. It's shaken us to the core. And that means that when we're remembering the Holocaust,

of course we've got to remember those people that were murdered, the six million Jewish men, women and children. And we should honour those that survived. And I knew Anka, Eva's mother. And I still obviously, I work with a lot of survivors, and I want to honour them and ensure that their stories are known. But I think they too feel that it's different this year. We're against a backdrop where we've seen this massacre, we've seen people celebrate it or justify it. And we've seen a huge increase in anti-Semitism across the world and including here in this country. We've also, there's a study out just today saying a third

of British young people say that Israel is acting like the Nazis. So there's also a conflation in some people's minds, which is, it's important to hear your response to that. Because, you know, there has been a thought that perhaps young people have heard strong criticism from some of Israel's military action in Gaza and that Israel is retaliating too strongly. So perhaps they see that survey statement as fact. And I wanted to ask you about that and what your response is to that. Well, first of all, just with response to this research, I mean, if a third of young people, 18 to 24 year olds, think that Israel is behaving as the Nazis did, I mean, that's an inversion, a malicious inversion that is suggesting somehow that the Jewish... I feel that there's something about this that is saying, beating Jewish people, you know, with the stick that actually they are trying to, you know, get over from however long ago. I think though, more importantly, and let's talk about young

people. I'm afraid that a lot of young people are picking up their information from 30 second or 60 second pieces on TikTok. I worry about the intent of this messaging. But I also really understand that young people just want to navigate the world and they want to make sense of it. We work and you've met some of these incredible young ambassadors from across the country who aren't Jewish, who visit Auschwitz, who meet a Holocaust survivor. And what we want them to do is we're encouraging curiosity and critical thinking. So of course, when I watch the news, it's devastating. Any loss of human life is a horrible thing to witness. And, you know, none of us want to see that in any conflict. But I think what it shows that there's more work to do,

and we really need to reach and cultivate young minds to be open and to learn more and probably challenge some of the misinformation that they're picking up. Eva, if I could bring you back in at this point, you came to this country as a sanctuary. There are a rise in anti-Semitic attacks and incidents in the UK and around the world at the moment. What is your response at this time? And how will you be thinking about this in light of Holocaust Memorial Day? Well, of course, it's very worrying, the rise in anti-Semitism around the world and in this country. And as Karen said, our work is to continue to talk to young people and to show them, to tell them the facts and to get them to make their own judgments. But in the light of history, in the light of what they know to be true.

And it is very difficult. I mean, I've spoken in a few schools, you know, since October the 7th. And so far, nobody has asked me about it, because I think it would be very difficult. Well, what I would say if I were asked about Israel and Gaza, I would just say, I'm not here in that context. I don't feel competent to discuss it. And I feel there's right and wrong on both sides. And we all have to fight for justice and for the right thing to do to one another, to be with one another, to respect one another.

And when I try to lighten this a bit, I always say it would be awfully boring if we were all the same. You know, I don't wish to sound facetious, but you know what I mean. And also when I tell my mother's story, I like to think that through telling one family's story, it brings the history alive, as opposed to, you know, people not being able to identify with the figure of six million. Now, again, I don't think I've answered your question, for which I apologise. I think you more than have. I think it's interesting, as you are in schools regularly and talking to young people, and we've just heard a particular snapshot of a group of young people in this country. And it's only, you know, it's not only a third, but it is not the majority still.

It's important to try and put in context how history is talked about and how it's also being used by some in the present day in a different way, which is all relevant to what is an annual event around the world, Holocaust Memorial Day, and to think about that. And it's very important, Eva, to have your voice in this. Thank you very much for talking to us this morning. You also heard from Emily Ullman-Hurt, a psychologist who's looked at how trauma and how different experiences have been passed down from the Holocaust through Jewish families, and the chief executive of the Holocaust Education Trust there, Karen Pollock. Thank you very much to everyone involved in that discussion. I have to say, we've got more links in terms of education here, certainly, because a message just come in about things coming a bit later. After going to 17 schools as a child and never going to university, I finally achieved my dream of ba arts degree age 76 the vice chancellor said at graduation how long did it take you and all i could say was too long it was

pure joy uh talking about again success at late stages or in different ways diana in london good morning to you my best success was being told i probably could not have children and i did several rounds of ivf miscarriages egg donor. We now have two beautiful boys who are eight and 11. Success. Congratulations for that. Having dropped out of art college in Aberdeen when I was 20,

feeling I was no good, I spent years doing other things. And then in my late 40s, I started again drawing and now have a studio and some growing success with exhibitions and I am doing what I love, says Anna.

And I left it 40 years to pursue acting. This other one here, another creative pursuit, and it's going well. But I'm looking back at a 40-year career elsewhere thinking, why did I leave it so long? Well, let's talk about something to do with perhaps why you maybe don't have as much freedom as you want. If you have children, perhaps the financial side of it it we've covered this slightly in a different way this week talking about and last week about child care provision but there is a an issue and a disparity

some would feel about child benefit in this country the chancellor jeremy hunt is facing pressure to fix what's been described as unfair child benefit rules campaigners have called it for to for it to be the focus of the budget in March, as some families are being penalised. If two people in a family earn less than £50,000 a year, they get the full amount of child benefit. But if one earner reaches £50,000,

they start to lose it and are no longer eligible once they reach £60,000. One of my next guests has described the current system as perverse. She's Harriet Baldwin, a Conservative MP and Chair of the Influential Treasury Select Committee. Good morning to you, Harriet. And let me just also welcome Tom Waters, who's an Associate Director at the Institute for Fiscal Studies, who specialises in the tax and welfare system. Tom, I'm going to start with you to get the basics. I've done a little bit there, but remind us, child benefit, what is it and how much is paid to families?

So if you, it depends on how many children you have. If you have two kids, for example, you get something in the neighbourhood or the person who's in work, if it's a single person household, earns more than £50,000, they see that child benefit entitlement withdrawn. And once they hit £60,000, they're not entitled at all. And that's actually, as implemented by, they essentially have to pay more in tax. And does that make sense? So I think what the government was trying to do when this policy was implemented about a decade ago now was to try and cut the welfare spending bill and to try and do it by taking some away from higher earning families. One consequence of it, which you've already alluded to, is if you have two, if you have a couple with both on both partners are on 49 000 pounds they get their full child benefit but a couple where one person earns 60 000 and one earns nothing at all they don't get any child's benefit even though really that second family is clearly less well off uh than the first and so i think that's a in many ways a quite an unattractive consequence of the way that the system has been designed.

And in terms of the, you've explained what the kind of hope was with it. Has it saved money? Has it been efficient? And has it been effective? This certainly does save the government money at the moment, something like £4 billion a year, compared to if they just made child benefit universal as it used to be before 2013. It's taking away child benefit from an increasingly large number of people because that £50,000 and £60,000 thresholds, they've been fixed in cash terms since then. So back when the policy was introduced, it affected about a million families.

That number is now more like two, two and a half million. And if those thresholds stay fixed, it will affect more and more and more families over time just because of inflation and people's wages going up and more people tripping over that £50,000 threshold. And is there a gender angle to this? If you look at it from the perspective of women and those who are affected and also how many people does it affect? So at the moment it affects something like two, two and a half million families. One important consequence of the way the policy works is typically the child benefit is paid to the mother. I think something like 90% of child benefit payments go to women. And if you have this sort of policy and child benefit and child benefit for those with higher higher levels of incomes then that means less money typically going to the mother and so if you have a stay-at-home

mother which might be their only direct form of income um it means that they they don't get that at all if that makes sense harriet baldwin let me bring you in at this point um is this why you say it's perverse tell us more well i obviously I speak as someone who back in 2013, voted to introduce it at the time. And I thought that given the context in 2013, it was appropriate for the higher earners to be affected by this policy change. And 10 years on, I think it is time for the Chancellor to look at it again. You highlighted one of the perverse characteristics of it. But we also, in terms of the Treasury Select Committee, see it through the lens of simplification of the tax system. As Tom was saying, it's catching more and more people. So when it was first brought in, you had to be earning more than twice the median wage to be affected.

But now it's only about 40, 50 percent more than the median wage. And you're forced to fill out all sorts of complicated forms with HMRC. And it's an area of complexity in the tax system, which actually can result, as I said, in this perverse withdrawal rate, so that if you have, let's say, three children, you can be facing marginal tax rates of 73% between 50,000 and 60,000. So I think it's really time for the Chancellor to look at it again, to reflect the fact that wages have gone up so much, and to also look at some of these, you know, other cliff edges and marginal withdrawal rates in the tax system to make the system simpler so that everyone feels that it's worth taking a promotion, that it's worth taking a pay rise, it's worth taking on

that extra hour of work. And the specific impact on single parents as well is something worth pointing out. I think Tom will have the data on that, but I think there is a specific impact on that. And also an important aspect is that you have to go and physically claim back your national insurance years for your full state pension. And that's also quite complicated, although HMRC have tried to take steps to make that easier. So it's something that affects a woman who throughout her life potentially in terms of her pension contributions as well. So I think it's an area that if the chancellor has the opportunity to look at some headroom in terms of the budget on the 6th of March, you know, this would be one of the first areas I would go to, to look to see if we can simplify this so that it affects fewer households. So that's the ask, simplify it and what else? What exactly are you looking for from Jeremy Hunt?

Well, the dream scenario would be if he's got the headroom to do it, to put this at the top of the priority list in terms of making some changes at a very minimum to raise the threshold so that it's considerably higher than it is now to reflect the fact that people's incomes have risen over this decade. My ideal, obviously, would be that it just goes all together, that it was regarded as something that was in place for a decade and that it goes all together. And we can get rid of this ridiculously high marginal tax rate that some households pay. We just had a message, Harriet and Tom, that says,

we're in this situation. My husband earns £60,000. I do not earn. My children have autism, which means they need my support. This will affect those with greater care responsibilities, not just single parents. And I presume that's a story or a scenario that you've heard before, Harriet. Indeed. And I think, you know, it's also a scenario where that household will have to fill out, you know, complicated forms with HMRC potentially. and then reclaim back those years that the mother has not been paying her national insurance contributions for qualify for her state pension.

So it's just a sort of horrible simplification to give you sort of expert witness evidence that we took on the committee from Catherine Kearns, who was chair of the Office of Tax Simplification before it was abolished. She told it was her personal bet noire, very difficult for taxpayers to get it right. The number of people who've been penalised as a consequence of not getting it right is also very high. So I think, you know, for the Chancellor with some headroom, this would be where I would advocate he look first. If you're not a keen follower of politics, Harriet, you will have been hearing this week also the headlines certainly about the the current problems with free child care provision around finances delays in allocating funding staff shortages and IT issues leading to thousands of parents being warned they won't be able to access

the government's offer of free child care when they thought they would be this is obviously was a flagship policy by the Chancellor in the last budget. What is your response to that? Well, I think that everyone broadly welcomes this great increase in terms of the number of free hours of childcare for families. Clearly, it's such a big increase. I think it's going from four billion spend to eight billion spend that it needs to be phased in starting with two-year-olds. Obviously, the sector does need time to recruit the additional childminders. And I know that there's going to be a big recruitment campaign around that. So, yes, we would be keen to see this policy rolled out and also for the Chancellor to be looking in the round at the households with children and the support that they get.

And I think that to go back to what we were talking about with the high income child benefit charge, you know, this is something where I think he could simplify things hugely for households as well. A return to universal benefit? That's a question that has been asked. Well, I think that would be my dream scenario, that after 10 years of having this complicated system, it's recouped a lot of money for the Chancellor. And if he's got some headroom, let's try and get rid of some of those penal, high marginal rates in our tax system. Do you have hope for that? Are you hopeful of it? Because there's quite a lot going on in your party right now,

not least an election looming and some people trying to get rid of the Prime Minister. I think one person, wasn't one person. There's some unnamed people today apparently joining this call by Simon Clarke. I think it's very good to see the progress that has been made, actually, by the Treasury in terms of implementing policies that have had the impact of bringing the inflation rate down in concert with what the Bank of England's been trying to do. I think inflation

has been the worst economic problem that we've been facing. And it's really important that's becoming under control. But also, it is the case that having higher tax revenues than expected will give the Chancellor some scope and some headroom at the March 6th budget to look at things he can do to improve the tax code. And our committee really wants to see some simplifications. And this is to us and based on the evidence we've received, one of the most complicated areas where I think it would really help to simplify things and to reduce some of those high marginal tax rates faced by families and some of those perverse incentives not to take promotions and not to take on more work. Harriet Baldwin, Conservative MP, Chair of the Treasury Select Committee, thank you. And Tom Waters, Associate Director at the Institute for Fiscal Studies. Those are the requests, those are the ideas of some of those looking at this and Conservatives within, of course, the party of government for so long now. I was a single parent earning just over the threshold for child benefit. If I hadn't taken a job earning a higher amount, I wouldn't have been able to get a mortgage on my own.

I got no support from my ex. It was brutal and totally unfair, says Alex. A message just coming in off our discussion in the run up to Holocaust Memorial Day. Really good to hear a discussion on transgenerational trauma. I am Spanish and my generation lives with trauma passed on to us by parents who experience horrific trauma in the Spanish Civil War. I think so many people are affected by these issues from historical conflicts around the globe. It is a huge topic. And a message here just going back to Princess Superstar at the age of 52 as a rapper, as a woman working in the music world, having just experienced a whole new level of fame. I first listened to Perfect, this tune, when I was 12 years old.

I thought it was the coolest. I'd listen to it non-stop. On my iPod, 15 years on, I'm now hearing it in all the clubs again. Legendary, says Alice. Well, you're all legendary for these messages. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Cobalt.

A thriller from BBC Radio 4. Hey, Dad. The person you're trying to reach is not available. £603 to Rwand Air. That's the price of a one-way ticket to Zimbabwe. Good afternoon, ma'am. We're looking for Mr Manfred Zibanda. Is there a problem?

Not yet. They've been in a few times this week looking for the cobalt that went missing. Would you risk it for 20 million? What the hell is that doing in Zimbabwe right now? Cobalt. On BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.