Woman's Hour - Long-term relationships and why they fail, football and politics, Brain of Britain, Susan Seidelman

Episode Date: November 24, 2022

Some may say that football and politics don't go together but anyone watching yesterday's matches might think otherwise. The Iranian team declined to sing their anthem & Wales fans showed their support for LGBTQ+ rights last night by wearing rainbow bucket hats. So how useful are these shows of solidarity? Laura McAllister, the ex-Wales footballer & Beth Fisher, freelance sports reporter & ambassador for the LGBTQ+ charity Stonewall discuss. Why is it that we so often struggle or fail in long term relationships? We’re not talking about major marriage infractions such as infidelity, domestic abuse or gambling away the family’s savings. We’re talking instead about unremarkable everyday behaviours that help to end a marriage. Guests are Joanna Harrison, author of Five Arguments All Couples (Need to) Have and why the washing up matters and Matthew Fray, author of This is how your marriage ends: A hopeful approach to saving relationships. Yesterday Radio 4’s Brain of Britain saw its first ever all-women final. 2022 champion Sarah Trevarthen joins Emma Barnett to discuss her victory, as well as her experiences undergoing chemotherapy for breast cancer while taking part in the show. Becky Howell, the co-founder of feminist quiz zine Quizogyny, also joins us to talk about the rise of women in quizzing. Susan Seidelman is an American film director, whose ground-breaking feature film Desperately Seeking Susan is considered one of the 100 greatest films directed by a woman. Susan joins Emma to discuss why the film is still relevant today, how she witnessed Madonna’s rise to success and her long career as a female director.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucinda Montefiore Studio Manager: Tim Heffer

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, Tim Harford here. I'm the undercover economist, the presenter of Radio 4's More or Less, and more pertinently right now, the host of a new Radio 4 podcast, Understand the Economy. Each episode I'll help cut through the fog of financial jargon to bring you to the crisp, bright daylight of understanding the world around us. If you don't really understand what inflation is, why mortgage rates have shot up or what that GDP thing stands for, this is the podcast for you. That's Understand the Economy, available now on BBC Sounds. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Some wry remarks have been posted in the last 24 hours on social media

to the tune of, it took the women at the Men's Football World Cup, which has just kicked off in Qatar, to take a stand. This was after football authorities told teams, including England and Wales, that they would be booked and fined if, as some of them were planning to do, they wore the One Love armband to show solidarity with the LGBTQ plus community while playing football in a country where homosexuality is a crime. Alex Scott, the former Lioness who's now a pundit for BBC Sport, chose to wear the armband on TV while commentating, which has drawn a lot of attention. And footage of

female Welsh fans being told to remove their rainbow flag bucket hats before going into the stadium. Again, worn in solidarity has gone around the world. Apparently some men were also asked to remove the same hats, but the coverage has focused on the world. Apparently some men were also asked to remove the same hats, but the coverage has focused on the women. The hats were apparently considered a restricted item that would need to be handed in, but some fans smuggled them into the stadium regardless. And in a moment I'll be talking to the woman whose rainbow hat was removed,

but she did manage to sneak it in, I believe, ex-Wales women's football captain Laura McAllister. But with the World Cup now in full swing and football fans getting excited, whether it's England's 6-2 win over Iran or Wales' one-all draw with the USA, do these stands make a difference? Do they matter to you? Or do you see it as empty virtue signalling? Shall football players have gone ahead and worn those armbands and been booked

because it does matter these sorts of symbols and gestures? Or should they concentrate on what they're paid for which is to play football? Text me here at Women's Hour

the number is 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media or at BBC Women's Hour or email me through the Women's Hour website

or send a WhatsApp message or voice note on a different number 03700 100 444 check the charges on all of those but there are as others have pointed out there are other options it isn't just an armband you could if you're a team captain for instance use your post-match press conference to speak out for the rights of the lgbt community and women and also migrant workers which has been a big focus in the run up to this World Cup and their treatment at the organisers' hands and allegations around that and about health and safety and lives that have been reported to have been lost in the building of those stadiums.

We also did see the Iranian team not sing their national anthem yesterday, protesting, we believe, against the authorities in their country and the treatment of women. But for many Iranians, that wasn't enough. Playing for their country at this time meant the damage was done. And maybe that's where you stand, that the damage has already been done and is already done. And now it's to the game. Let me know. Do get in touch. I look forward to hearing your take on this. Even if I suppose you're not a football fan, you will not have been immune to the coverage around this. And perhaps in other areas of life, you also look at these sorts of stands,

these sorts of symbols as important, or maybe not. Also on today's programme, the American film director Susan Seidelman will be here nearly 40 years on from directing Desperately Seeking Susan, in which an unknown Madonna starred, and that song featured. We'll be talking about what's changed, what's not, and also, I suppose, how she saw Madonna's star rise

and what that was like to witness up close. And the Radio 4's Queer's Brain of Britain has an all-female final for the first time. You may have heard it yesterday. I'll be joined by the newly crowned winner, who has been trying to win a different fight on the personal front, which we'll also hear about. But for the quizzers out there amongst you, you'll definitely want to stay with us for that. But first to the Qatar World Cup in the run up to the tournament, it was the

women's England football players who were the most outspoken about concerns staging the tournament in a country which outlaws being gay and women are often treated as second-class citizens. The Lionesses Leah Williamson, Lotta Wubben-Moy spoke out alongside Beth Mead, the top scorer in this year's Euros, who you may remember on this programme told me about her concerns earlier this month.

From the minute it was announced, I thought, I mean mean it's not the best idea i think obviously they're um the way they think and how they go is complete opposite to what i believe and respect and although i'm cheering for the boys who were going to play football there i still don't think it's the right place but unfortunately money talks and the situation even of the stadiums being built and the amount of people that have passed because of that it's

I mean it's not an ideal situation it's not something that I will be backing or promoting at all Beth Mead talking earlier this month on this programme well now the tournament has begun is there any point in further protest? Does fans clamour to enjoy the game?

Laura McAllister is an ex-Wales footballer. She's also a Cardiff University professor and past FIFA council candidate who attended the Wales versus USA game yesterday, which ended in a draw, one all. She wore a rainbow wool bucket hat as she entered the World Cup stadium in Qatar, but was asked to remove

it you may have seen an image of that Laura good morning good morning Emma what what happened last night well we were queuing up to enter the stadium I was very much in my capacity as a fan last night so we heard the news come back through the queue that some of our colleagues and friends who were wearing the rainbow bucket hat had been asked to remove them. So in a way, we were anticipating that to be the case. And of course, we made a decision. I mean, it was a reactive decision, but we knew what was coming to keep our hats on.

And yeah, true to form, you know, once we went through security, we were approached by some of the stewards and security staff and told that we couldn't enter the stadium wearing the rainbow bucket hat. So I politely asked why and was told it was a regulation. But, you know, there's a contradiction there because, of course, we're all aware that FIFA had made it clear that rainbow symbols, whether that was attire or flags indeed would be allowed in the stadiums as part of their pressure on the Qatari authorities to make this an inclusive World Cup so you know it was very

very disappointing and I mean you know I'm old enough and experienced enough to have coped with it but I mean if it had happened to a young person it would have been very very distressing and and fundamentally wrong and I think most importantly for us and you know you mentioned the England women's players there, well, plenty of Welsh male and female footballers had also expressed their misgivings about this World Cup, including myself. But we decided that those of us who are here

in an ambassadorial capacity with the Welsh government and the Football Association would be doing it to champion the values that make Wales different and tolerant and inclusive. And so when we're forced with that situation, we have to stand up for our principles. Let me come back to that in a moment, the bigger picture and how you make your voice heard. But what did you do after you were told you weren't allowed to wear it? Well, we argued our case, you know, made the point that it was showing our team's colours,

but also a commitment to basic human rights for everyone. I mean, that received no receptive audience, let's say. And we were told that we would have to take our hats to a restricted items holding bay that we could collect them from at the end. So I walked towards that. But I think as a very small protest of my own, I managed to stick my hat in my pocket and I went back through.

So, you know, we had our hats in the stadium. It's a very small protest in the big scheme of it. But I think, you know, it gives us a little bit of moral authority anyway. Did you put it on in the stadium? Several of us put our hats on to have a photograph in the stadium. And I did see people wearing their hats during the game. So I don't know if there was any difficulty with that because it was hard to imagine, really. And were you approached having it on?

Were any officials sent over? No, we only took a quick photograph and then we were concentrating on obviously supporting our team. This is the first time Wales has been in the World Cup for 64 years. It's pretty important for those of us who are lifelong Wales fans to be there championing the team and the football as well. I'll bet. It's interesting to see the messages that are coming in about this, because you say it's a small gesture for yourself there in respect of taking it into the stadium, but then these things sort of add up at the same time. What do you say to those who think you shouldn't even be there,

you shouldn't even be, you know, in person supporting this because of the issues around, you know, Qatar, its politics and all of this? Well, I understand the counter-argument to the decision that lots of us have made to be here, but I don't accept them. I think it's a very personal decision for obvious reasons, but for those of us who have a role here, whether that's with UEFA or the Football Association of Wales or indeed the Welsh government, we're here to actually champion change as well.

And I think people assume that means trying to influence the Qataris. We're not arrogant enough to think that a small nation like Wales can have immediate impact on a regime like the Qatari one. But in having the conversations, we've highlighted not only what's important to us as a nation, tolerance and inclusiveness and diversity and respect for everyone. But we're making the conversation more visible and more audible. And I think that was that was our aim from being here. And I think you've always got to be in those conversations.

I mean, how many people are going to be listening to the media? I mean, yeah, but that's the thing. Is it to the Qataris? I mean, there's a couple of messages here that I just wanted to put to you. A Welsh female footballer was quoted as saying they're there in Qatar to live their own country's values. I disagree.

When you're in a foreign country, you should respect the values of that country. This is not Qatar's fault. It's FIFA's fault. Let me just finish. May I just finish this one message from a listener? Of course. It is FIFA's fault for placing money above the values they are supposed to uphold.

Blame FIFA. Well, I agree with part of that, but not all of it, because FIFA is the world governing body of football. It has called this World Cup an inclusive one that everyone would be welcome at. And therefore, all of the issues that arose yesterday, not just for me, but for lots of other people, and I don't doubt will continue to arise, run counter to the World Governing Body's description of this tournament. So, you know, we were told very clearly that rainbow symbols would be allowed in the stadium.

And therefore, you know, we feel very much within our rights to have championed things that are important to us. It's not about the country. This is about a mega sports event. And if, quite frankly, if a country can't guarantee basic human rights for every citizen who wants to visit here, whether they're gay or straight or a migrant worker or a woman then I then I think the point that your listener raised is very opposite they should not be allowed to host a tournament of this magnitude do you feel safe being there well I feel safe um you know I'm I'm working I'm here in a work capacity um uh with the Football Association of Wales. So I feel safe. I feel aggrieved, you know, and

nothing personally for me about that, but for every other person who's been treated shoddily. But at the same time, you know, we're conscious that we have a profile. We're here as ambassadors and, you know, we have to stand up for the rights of LGBT people at home in Wales and in England and in every other progressive nation who feel cheated out of a World Cup so you know I certainly wasn't going to back down at the first resistance to that it may be a small matter of a rainbow bucket hat but it's emblematic really of basic principles that we believe in very strongly and just finally Laura I want to bring in somebody else to this conversation but just finally do you think on the England side, I know you support Wales,

but do you think the England players and the Welsh players, do you think they should have worn their armbands and got a fine? I mean, the Iranian team didn't even sing their own national anthem. Well, let's be clear. The players were ready to wear the armbands if the only sanction was a fine. It was escalated by FIFA at the very last minute to suggest that they would receive an immediate yellow card and possibly beyond that. And that is such an absolutely dreadful pressure to put on players on the day of a match. So, you know, I'm not going to criticise anybody for that.

We all have to make our stand in the best way. This is a problem with FIFA, not with the players of either England or Wales. But if we're talking about protest from small to large, don't you think that could have been a signal? I think it would have been a protest and the players would have worn the armband if they were just sanctioned with a fine.

But I think the matter of an on-field sanction is a different matter. But, you know, we can only do what we can do here. And we're under no illusions about how much impact we can have do what we can do here and we're under no illusions about um how much impact we can have but however small our voices are we're conscious that we're raising them for lgbt people at home and across the world who don't have basic human rights i'm just hearing

from some of our listeners that they think the players should have uh should have worn those armbands if they were going to wear them prior to the warnings anyway that we've just talked about it's good to have you on the programme. Thank you for making time. I'm sure you're happy with the Welsh performance with that. The second half. The second half, yes. Laura McAllister, thank you very much. Beth Fish is on the line, freelance sports reporter and former hockey player for the Welsh national team

and an ambassador for the LGBTQ plus charity Stonewall. Good morning, Beth. Morning. Would you have felt safe going? I know you haven't gone. I think, you know, as a gay woman, when I go around the world on holiday, the fact that I have to look up

and see if it's safe for an LGB person to go to says a lot anyway. So going to a country like Qatar, I would have felt inhibited in being my true, authentic self. I actually went out there. My sister was living out there and I didn't feel comfortable. I, you know, as a gay woman, you're kind of more safer than than maybe a gay man. But I did feel that, you know, even sending messages to my girlfriend, I know that sounds mad, but I was quite restricted in what I was going to say because as we've seen this week with the alcohol issues,

the government out there and the royal family can change rules overnight. And my sister said the same from living there. So, yeah, I... So can FIFA. Would you have liked to have seen

the football players continue to go forward with wearing those armbands? Do they mean a lot to you? Yeah, I mean, mean for me this whole tournament um has been kind of had a huge dark cloud over it the armband to be frank was a small gesture one love quite frankly sounded like a westlife song rather than a protest you know a protest for um lgbt rights i think i agree with laura you know it shouldn't be put on the players

in some respect you know if bill had't be put on the players in some respect. You know, if Bale had worn that yesterday, he got a yellow card in the 40th minute, he could have been effectively red carded and off. And then who knows what would have happened in that game. But what I will say is that there are many people around the world, not just in terms of LGBTQ rights, you've got to look at Iran at the moment who are risking their lives to kind of protest against, you know, basic human rights human rights so for me i think it would have been an incredible you know gesture and protest if one player maybe one will come forward i've heard rumors that ericsson might do it for the danish team but who knows if that's correct

would have done it i want to say a lot actually would have kind of put two fingers up to fifa but equally today we are talking about this and not football. So again, that says quite a lot about FIFA's decisions and their subsequent kind of, you know, I guess, this yellow card nonsense that they've said about with the armband. Going to the rainbow hats and hearing what that was like, not being able to wear it, sneaking it on, sneaking it in to have a quick photo. I mean, do you actually think that those sorts of gestures mean anything?

You talked about the armband being a small one. You know, I've noticed a lot of comments on social media saying it's just empty virtue, Sigla. No, I disagree with that. Listen, I, you know, I'm nearly 40. I've been, you know, I've known I've been gay since I was 14. So in my late teens and early 20s, the rainbow flag was a sign around the world and country that it was a safe place for me to go into, you know, bars or cafes, it was it was kind of that symbol, okay,

you'll be safe in here. Because let's not forget, you know, the UK has not been great for LGBTQ rights in the last, you know, however many decades. So for me, it was a symbol, you know, my good friend, Laura McAllister, that if anyone's going to fly the flag for Wales and equality, then she's the person to do it. And I'm really proud that she kind of took that stance but we we kind of knew it was coming but I did hear you know there were other things like rainbow stickers being ripped off phones I've heard of one person from America being told he was disgusting uh for wearing a rainbow um had a rainbow kind of flag on his hand so for me it just takes me back to when I was a teenager being frank you know with section 28 and that feeling of oh my god mental gymnastics we just can't be ourselves and I'm

absolutely furious at FIFA for putting us in this position where I'm not just enjoying football to be frank until Wales sang that anthem yesterday I wasn't enjoying yesterday it was horrible and you know and and quite frankly um as soon as Wales are out, then I'm off. I'm not watching anymore because it's just been completely sport for me. Should you be watching it at all? It's a good question. And I've had this conversation with my partner, Anita Sante, who used to play for England. And we're both feeling for the LGBTQ community. But I will say as well, you know, we've got to look at what's happening here in the UK with homophobic and transphobic attacks.

We're not perfect. So before we can look at other countries and kind of throw... Homosexuality isn't illegal here. No, it's not. It's quite a stark... I mean, that's why people are boycotting... Well, you say that... No, no, but... Well, I'm sorry.

But people are being attacked and killed and trans rights, their basic human rights, are on the line at the moment and we know that. So, yes, all right, the death penalty isn't that and I accept that, but we can't say 100% that we are safe as LGBTQ people in the UK because because quite frankly, we've gone backwards. And as a gay person, I've definitely felt that that wave of kind of safeness go away compared to maybe 10 years ago.

I know it's just the comparison with Qatar, which is what we were focusing on. I just meant people have said and got in touch to say they're just not watching it at all uh which is why i wanted to ask you that question specifically exactly and you know for us as a welsh person like laura said we haven't blinking qualified for 64 years and it's a big moment and it's a huge moment i will say the faw in terms of what they've done for equality jason weber particularly they've done such a great job and I'm so proud to be part of where actually you know we've had the rainbow wall which is you know which has officially kind of been sanctioned by the FAW so in terms of what we can do I think we're doing the most we can. I will make a point though that I think if this is a women's tournament I think you would have seen

all the women wear those armbands because it affects them directly as being, you know, it's no secret that there are more LGBTQ people within football. Yeah. So I think this, for me, it questions the table. Yeah.

I think it questions how far you're going to go for other people's human rights. Yes. Well, it's a very poignant point to end on. Beth, thanks for your time this morning.

No worries. Thank you very much for having me on. Beth Fisher there. A message from Helen, not saying that exact point, but kind of chimes with that. Hello, Emma. The whole of the England team should have worn armbands. I presume you'd extend that to the Wales team. We're also hearing about them. They can't give them all a yellow card. The Iranian team was so brave not singing their anthem. People need to make a stand especially when millions are watching and so it goes on totally disgusted with the hypocrisy around this especially around David

Beckham says James in Gloucester who's been paid to be an ambassador for these games another one it is an inclusive inclusive games people though who visit this country must obey this country's laws also surely if Prince William as the head of the Football Association, wasn't willing to go to Qatar, the team shouldn't have been willing to play. Again, blame FIFA. And so it goes on about boycotts and whether you think the rainbow hat and other things like it are good forms of protest. One here is saying the wearing of the rainbow hat in Qatar

is just another form of Western colonialism. Protest as much as you like at home, but if you don't like Qatar's laws, do not go there. It's shameful behaviour. So a division certainly on the front of how you protest and what you do. Keep those messages coming in. Well, talking of perhaps rowing

in a slightly different context and people not staying together and not agreeing. Last year, around 42% of marriages in the UK ended in divorce and in opposite sex marriages, nearly two thirds of divorces were initiated by women. Now two writers want to try and address

why we so often struggle or fail in long-term relationships. And just to be clear, not talking about, as what one of them calls them, major marriage crimes, for instance, infidelity or gambling away the family's money or even domestic abuse. Instead, we're actually going to focus on the more everyday relationship difficulties, such as lack of intimacy, communication problems, lack of trust, or simply one partner being unhappy and the other one not being able to perhaps empathise. Well, Joanna Harrison is a couples

therapist and she's the author of five arguments all couples brackets need to have and why the washing up matters. And Matthew Frey, excuse me, a relationship coach, has written. This is how your marriage ends. A hopeful approach to saving relationships. Warm welcome to you both. Hopefully we'll get on during this. Matthew, Matt, good morning. Welcome to the programme. Good morning. Welcome to the program. Good morning. Thank you. What went on in your marriage? Because I talked about how many women are ending marriages here in the UK. I believe it was your wife who made the decision in your case as well, your ex-wife.

It certainly was, yes. And what was her reason for it or what did you understand it to be? Do we have 17 hours to talk about it? Alasas not. It was yeah it was you know it was a million little things that any one of them if I said it would sound absurd to any listener but probably not to busy working mothers who've experienced the same thing for a long time. It was a series of micro betrayals and it's the way most people erode trust in their relationships. And you have come to recognize what those are and understand them.

I think so. It's fundamental absence of considering our relationship partner. And then we tend to couple that with not responding to their, a relationship partner shouldn't have the ability to tell their partner that something's wrong and then have it work out for them on some level. And that almost never happens. That communication and excuse me, unhealthy relationships and that communication breakdown, that inability for my wife to say to me that something was wrong and have me respond in a way that actually helped, I think was ultimately the recipe that that resulted in us ending. And just before I bring my other guest into this, before I bring Joanna into this, you talk about accidental sexism ruining your marriage, and you also talk about something called the invalidation triple threat,

which you say men meet out far more than women. What's that? That was what I was just referring to. It is the belief that when a relationship partner says something to us, there's something wrong with what they're thinking, there's's wrong unless we approve of them thinking or feeling that and then when when that conversation can't happen over many months and years the relationship will break down because nothing ever gets repaired. Janna let's talk to you about these these smaller everyday things that build up then what was your take on that? I mean I think you know we we have to find a way to live with each other in a relationship and it's the everyday stuff that we're dealing with

every day and it's it's really difficult and I completely agree with Matthew that you know when we're making a complaint about the everyday stuff if the if the other person doesn't really respond or says no I don't agree it's not right or is defensive then it you know it feels like a mini betrayal and if we're not tending to the everyday stuff that that affects the whole big picture so you know Matthew writes about the glass left by the sink and and that was driving his wife mad and it does you know I hear in couple therapy again and again these frustrations about the everyday stuff you know we're talking about the washing up all the time we're talking about the dishwasher I've heard every single row about it and and and it's in that that that all our

strong feelings about each other need tending to because that's daily life that's that's what a relationship is how does a discussion about the dishwasher bring that out I think you know at one level there's like we've got to find a way to live together we've got to find a way to like make this work to to to navigate the kitchen together but actually you know say that there's there's deeper frustrations i talk about these five arguments we have so one of them is like frustrations about workload which is a big toxic one if someone is unhappy about their amount of workload in the relationship it's going to find its way into the argument about the dishwasher or the washing up. It's just they're going to be feeling annoyed that they're doing it again.

And that may speak to the bigger pattern of how the workload is shared in the relationship. And that stuff needs addressing. Otherwise, it is hugely corrosive. And that small argument that seems to be about this small thing, if that's only treated as a small thing you're missing a huge opportunity to think about okay how is how is the workload set out in our relationship and what do you feel about it and do you think it's salvageable when you get

to that stage when these things have set in and they're every day yeah absolutely i mean that's my whole book is about like the arguments we have are brilliant you know people think oh we must not have arguments no no conflict but actually they're flags for like okay this is something that really needs addressing if we can look at this if we keep having this argument again and again what is that about and that you know that that is the moment to look and see what what we can salvage what what is this actually about rather than as Matthew, being defensive and not being curious. So curiosity is everything. When there's an argument, that is a way into looking at it after the argument.

What was that about? What did that mean to you? Do you think your relationship could have been salvageable, Matthew? I mean, it's a tricky question, right? Had I known then what I know now? Absolutely. Really? Under the circumstances, no. I always answer this question as it took the pain of her leaving and losing the family, I think, to feel sufficiently motivated to do the work, which is not a testament to me, by the way.

And in terms of what do you wish you could then say to perhaps others to help them be in a position where they don't get to the place where there's a breakup? I'm so sorry that I'm not sure that I'm understanding the question. What advice do you want to give to those so that they can respond better and maybe not get to the stage where the relationship breaks down? What do you wish you had known? If I'm talking to my male counterparts in male-female relationships, I really wish they would stop thinking of negative feedback as some character attack, some harm to their ego. It's an opportunity to protect the other person from this negative experience.

And I now, now today 10 years removed from my relationship um welcome information that allows me to like meet someone's needs this um fundamental absence of need fulfillment in relationships is is the actual problem and every time my wife tried to tell me what they were I I rejected it I didn't let her and why anyway I just wish people would embrace that problem why do you think you were rejecting it because I took it as criticism I took it as unfair criticism or judgment of me I thought I was a good person I thought I was a good relationship partner and then I didn't allow any like feedback to the contrary and someone is allowed to hurt even though we don't intend to hurt them.

And that was a shockingly simple but difficult lesson for me to learn was that that my intentions do not equal the experiences of those around me. Joanna, to come to this statistic I shared at the beginning, opposite sex marriages, nearly two thirds of divorcesces are initiated by women what do you make of that with your experience yeah it's interesting I mean every ending to a relationship is different I think you might think about I talk in the in my chapter about roles about the different different work we do in relationships and maybe you know one person is doing sort of emotional thinking about what's what's what needs tending to in the relationship. Maybe one is thinking about other roles and maybe women are thinking about more about the sort of what is going on in the relationship, what needs tending to flagging it up, saying this needs addressing as Matthew, you described sort of minimizing it. No. And so I think someone can carry the like this.

This needs to be changed and and you know over a long-term relationship if you keep making a bid for change and it isn't engaged with at some point people give up you know and is that more women than men well clearly statistically it seems to be in your conversations though do you see it as the women who are who are I mean Matthew I don't know if you've got a take on this about whether it's men who can't often listen or take that on like you were saying male conditioning perhaps i wouldn't want to come off i get a lot of criticism for sounding like i'm blaming men for relationship problems and i'm not blaming anybody i don't think most of the time men are bad i think the skills necessary to execute relationships are often displayed

By women more often than men and male-female relationships if we're making, you know broad generalizations, which isn't particularly cool But I it's not about character attacks. It's about awareness. It's about habits. It's about behavior and I I brought less to the table than my wife did and it's really that simple and I think that's often the case in male-female relationships today. Joanna? I mean I think you can think you know when there's an issue in a relationship you can think about it from both ways that's what I do is like not thinking about one person to blame but the dynamic I think we can also think about how if there's a problem we bring it up so that we don't make the other person feel really defensive you know that there's

it's sort of how these conversations happen rather than making really blaming accusations that put someone's back up immediately. How do we have conversations that make it easier for us to look at what is difficult in a relationship so I like to think about it as a dynamic. Yes well I think and there's a message here that says please can you repeat this conversation about relationships every day at 8 30 in the morning so everyone can hear it brackets including my husband which is one of our listeners getting in touch straight away off the back of it thank you very much for your honesty Matthew I'm sure you've been having some interesting conversations about the book but also maybe within your family.

How's it been received in your family just before you leave us the book and your lessons? That's funny. I actually love my family, but I think I learned all my behavior traits from my family. So they're very proud of me and the work that I'm doing. But I honestly am not sure deep down that they're entirely on board with what I've come to believe is necessary for relationships to succeed. Well, that's interesting. It's an element of relativism. Someone's allowed to hurt even if you don't think it's a big deal. Matthew Frey, thank you. The book is called This is How Your Marriage Ends, A Hopeful Approach to Saving Relationships. Joanna Harrison, you up for coming every day at 8.30? Yeah, totally. Right. Okay. The book is called This Is How Your Marriage Ends, A Hopeful Approach to Saving Relationships. Joanna Harrison, are you up for coming every day at 8.30? Yeah, totally.

Great, OK. The author of five arguments all couples need to have and why the washing up matters. Your messages, I have to say, still coming in about our first discussion. I decided to boycott the World Cup months ago. It was an obvious choice for me. I love football, but I'm not watching. I'm getting fit by walking out on television. Another one here, I'm a football fan.

I love World Cups. A chance to watch world-class players on free-to-air TV. I'm just not really engaging with this year's tournament. I'm so disappointed the European side is bottled wearing the one-love armband. What a message it would have showed if they'd all taken the yellow card for wearing it. Perhaps before each game the names of the workers

who died working on that stadium should be read out. We can focus on football while also still shining a light on the abuses suffers says janet who's listening this morning in twickenham good morning to you um wearing of armbands in support of lgbt plus people is an important visible form of support in a time when violence against these people is on a sharp increase if if people only ever did what they were paid to do, no social injustices would ever be addressed, says Tay in Devon. Hello.

Everything about this World Cup has felt like lies and corruption and greed and human rights abuses. I might have watched it, but the banning of the rainbow armband has turned me right off. So I'm now boycotting all of it. Keep your messages coming in. And perhaps while you're listening to this next discussion,

we'll be learning a few things and maybe you'll have a different take altogether. Or maybe you'll want to have your say, especially if you're a quizzer, because a woman who discovered a love of quizzes in lockdown was yesterday afternoon crowned the 69th brain of Britain. Right here on Radio 4, You may have heard it. I was driving, I also heard it. The final was a historic one because for the very first time in

the programme's 55-year history, all four of the finalists were women. Well, joining me now is the new Brain of Britain champion, Sarah Trevathan, and also Becky Howell, the co-founder of the feminist cuisine, Quizogyny. Becky, I'll come to you in a moment, but Sarah, good morning and congratulations. Morning and thank you very much. How are you feeling today about it? Oh, it's a very strange feeling because obviously I've known about it for a few weeks, so it's been very difficult to keep it quiet from people. So it's great just being able to talk to people about it now.

Well, huge congratulations. It's a great title to have. And I know that you've got a few others as well because you've been getting very into quizzing. People know that women have won this particular competition before, but the all-female final is the first. What do you make of that? I think it's fantastic to see so many really strong female quizzers, some of whom have been doing it for years and years and some of whom are relatively new, like myself. And just to show that women can do quizzing just as well as everybody. And hopefully it will encourage more women to actually take it up as a serious hobby. Becky, I know that you look at this also from a different point of view of what the content of the questions contains.

Why have you been looking at it from this point of view? So me and the rest of the Quizogeny team, we were a pub quiz team in Edinburgh. And we just noticed that in the questions in our regular quiz, there was a huge male bias. And when you don't see yourself in the questions, you tune out a bit. And I think that is why there are less female quizzes in pop quizzes on TV. So we started the zine. Our zine is a five rounds quiz and we're putting women centrally in there it's the achievements of women it's the history of women and we think that that needs to be more broadly broadcast okay so you think more women will come to it if they're in the questions and certainly their

history and their stories i think so because you you need that that little recognition to to see yourself represented in a quiz to know that it's for you, because quizzing is so much fun. And lockdown, as I mentioned, was a big spur for a lot of people to perhaps get involved who hadn't before. Sarah, I know that you found quizzing quite recently why um well i've always um liked like to pub quiz and i've always liked to um to shout the answers at the tv while watching things like pointless and the chaste um but um me and my husband went on pointless just before the lockdown we recorded it um and we did pretty well and thought well let's have a go at doing this is a bit more and we we found out about British Quizzing Association and the national rankings and we just had a go we went to one of their monthly events and I was told

that my scores were actually pretty good then obviously the world stopped and everything went online including those quizzes and it was a sort of well what else are we doing at the moment and we just got involved. And then we started doing online quiz league, which started up during the lockdown. And it just snowballed. And it was a real way of just keeping in contact with the world and made so many new friends, although it took me about a year to actually meet most of them in person. But I feel like I've known them all my life and it's such an inclusive community and I think the lockdown has has spurred on a more diverse group of people I think to join in as well both in terms of

more women taking part and a lot of younger people taking part and and it's great. I should say and I know you you want to talk about this that while you were competing in brain of britain and and something i want to come to if i can you're having to prepare and practice because it's not just people who are good at quizzes it's not just you're naturally good at it and you're walking around and you've got all this stuff in your head i'm sorry if that that you know ruins the mystery but you were you were in the midst of of chemotherapy treatment that's treatment for breast cancer. Yes. So I did mastermind last year and I got to the final.

And on the day that was being broadcast, I was actually diagnosed with inflammatory breast cancer. And I was invited to ask if I wanted to apply for Brain of Britain and I almost didn't do it um but it was a great way of keeping my brain active and I have a fantastic employer who've been very very supportive during during my illness um and I haven't been working as much but that meant I needed to keep my brain active and quizzing was fantastic for that it was a way of sort of demonstrating that I'm I'm still me um and also keeping in contact with people um but also i think having the quiz's brain you're always wanting to learn about things and i think that's actually helped me cope with the illness because i've just wanted to know exactly what's going on all the time. Yes, and have that information. Any question about types of scam, I'm all over it now. So I'm your go-to person.

The knowledge you didn't necessarily know you needed to have or wanted to have. But how are you? How is your health? I'm feeling very well. Unfortunately, it's something which will never completely go away, but it's under good control. So, obviously, it was a different scenario,

but I feel fine. I feel absolutely fine. Important to ask that. And some lovely news, I suppose, to keep the distraction going with this now being public information. How do you decide what to learn and what not to learn to get good? I mean, do you have a method? I think you soon realise where your strengths lie

and where your weaknesses lie. I mean, I've always been quite good at sort of more entertainment, things like music and film, that sort of thing, and geography because I travel a lot with work. So capital cities, Central Asian republics, great on those. But I know I'm very bad at sports and computer games and physics. And there's a whole whole areas of things I didn't even know that I didn't know until coming to quizzing. So I've but it's just a matter of either saying well i'm not interested in those

things so i'm never going to get a question right or trying to develop an interest so i found myself reading books on formula one which seems very strange to be me of three years ago um but yeah it's it's just trying to find an interest in things that you've not experienced. And your technique, do you make notes? Because I find if I read a book and I don't make notes, it's information I want to keep. It's almost pointless. Or can you just retain it once you've read it?

My brain does seem to be able to retain some bits of information. It'll come up with little gems that maybe I've read years ago and go, oh, maybe that's the answer to that. But some of the newer things, I'm having to make notes. I know a lot of quizzes use sort of flashcards, this software which you can write questions and answers and you sort of flip through them while you're idly waiting for a train, these sorts of things.

And I do try to do that, but my application to it is not brilliant. But I will get it. Well, you are now brain of Britain, so no one's going to mess with that. Sarah, huge congratulations again, and all the best with the treatment as well and continuing to feel well. Becky, to just come back to you, Quizogyny, the co-founder of this feminist quiz zine, do you find there's a particular way that you set the questions? Because I think the setting of the questions is also fascinating. Tell us a bit about

the method for that. Yeah, that's a really good question. And I think we've been learning by doing because a lot of our information that we have for a lot of the questions are intentionally things that people don't automatically know because we're trying to highlight that female history isn't as broadly known but obviously getting questions right in a quiz is really lovely it's a really good feeling so it's trying to make things guessable trying to write the questions around maybe you know asking multiple choice questions but like Sarah says one of the best things about quizzing is learning things and what we're trying to do with our zine is to teach people just this knowledge that isn't always known and trying to get it out there. It would be quite

frustrating to perhaps attend one of your quizzes in person and not be able to get a single one of them i'm not sure you'd have the greatest evening but i suppose it would make your point yeah we're trying to make a point but we're also trying to keep it fun yeah there you go fun learning becky howell thank you very much for your time and insights there a message here from john who says all women final talking about going back to you brain of britain wow great stuff and another one here i'm 73 and i've been quizzing since the mid 80s. I have what I call a filing cabinet mind. I started in pub quizzes, captained a pub quiz team for about 10 years. I still take part in local quiz evenings. I love quizzing and it definitely keeps my mind active, says Kate, who's listening and go back to relationships I wonder if the reason more women initiate divorces than men is because of the extension of the family admin that doesn't get done otherwise they just get around to doing the forms sounds like someone who's in the know they're interesting chats about relationships my ex-wife and I mutually agreed to divorce over 30 years ago

it was quote instigated by her actually actually for a practical reason. She qualified for legal aid and I didn't. We can't be the only ones. Well, we did that whole programme, didn't we, on No Fault Divorces, which is a whole other change that is altering that landscape. But interesting to hear some of your takes on relationships, who instigates the breakup, perhaps, and why. My next guest is an American film director whose groundbreaking feature film Desperately

Seeking Susan is considered one of the 100 greatest films directed by a woman. It's also written and produced by women with the two lead female roles played by the then unknown Madonna in her first film or pretty unknown I should say and Rosanna Arquette. Susan

Seidelman is the director I'm talking about and nearly 40 years after its first screening, Desperately Seeking Susan is undergoing a revival with a Blu-ray box set released this week. Susan, welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning. Thank you. Happy to be here. I just wanted to add one thing about relationships. Oh, yes. I've actually been in a relationship for 36 years with a Welshman and whose mother used to listen to this show maybe 50 or more years ago. So tying it all together. It's all good.

It's all come back together and the relationship's still going. Okay, that's good. Good to hear. Talking then about, well, looking back, I suppose, 40 years on, nearly 40 years on. What do you remember about receiving the script of Desperately Seeking Susan? Well, the first thing I remember was that it had my name in the title. So I didn't put my name in there. It came with that. but but that certainly grabbed my attention but i think what was uh so interesting about it was uh the that it was funny but also so female i mean the whole

package was was really unique for its time because as you said starring two women written by a woman produced by two women and the person that actually enabled us to get the money, the financing, was one of the few women at a studio who had the power to actually greenlight this movie. So all those things kind of came together in a wonderful way. And did that affect the making of it, do you think, in any way? How did that impact? Because I wonder if you may have felt

you were really doing something quite renegade while you were doing it yeah I I think we did I think also the power dynamic was different I mean I was very nervous because I came out of the New York independent film community I had made a low budget indie film called Smithereens that had gotten some attention, which is what which is why I got the script for Desperately Seeking Susan. But I was very nervous to do my first Hollywood movie because I had heard such horror stories about indie filmmakers, especially women who suddenly had these, you know, heavy handed producers breathing over their shoulder and they could no longer kind of get their vision across or do the thing that made them interesting in the first place. So I was very nervous that that kind of power structure would get in the way of making the movie. And it did not. And obviously it went on to connect with so many people,

especially women. There's that great tagline, which I was reminding myself of. It's a life so outrageous it takes two women to live it. Exploring two different worlds. You've got suburban New Jersey and fantasy downtown New York and a relatively unknown Madonna in there. That's right. I mean, when we started the movie,

it was really Rosanna Arquette that helped us to get the financing because she was an up and coming young Hollywood starlet. And we auditioned a lot of other actresses for the role of Susan before we came to Madonna. People who are now quite famous like Melanie Griffith and who else? Ellen Barkin. And what was it? David Lee Curtis. Oh, OK. No, no. I was just going to say, what was it about Madonna? What did she have? Well, she had authenticity. I mean, she felt like the real thing.

The other thing about her is she actually lived down the street from me at the time. We were both living in Soho. And I knew about her from just being involved a little bit in that New York downtown music scene. So I had heard of her. And MTV was, it was the early days of MTV. And I had seen one of her very early videos I think it was borderline and I just knew she the camera liked her she she knew how to flirt with the camera and that that x-factor I just hoped I could take that and sort of capture that on celluloid

and and actually during the filming of it and this time, her star did rise really quickly, didn't it? It was unbelievable to watch that happen because when we were filming, it was a nine week shoot. And the first day we were filming down in the East Village, no one was paying attention to us. You know, we were just another film crew on the street. People would come, walk by, glance in our direction, and then continue on. By the end of this shoot, nine weeks later, we actually needed security because her star had, you know, skyrocketed and no one could have anticipated that. But it certainly it was great because working with her in the beginning, there was no entourage. I just got to work with her. It was a very intimate relationship.

There weren't, you know, personal assistants or agents or managers hanging around the set. But by the time the movie was released, I guess her Like a Virgin album had come out and she was enormous. And obviously that helped with the release of the film. You also, is it right, you directed the music video for Get Into The Groove? Well, the music video is really composed of clips from the film that I helped to edit together. Okay. Oh yeah. Well, that's a cool thing also, I suppose, to have within this because it's such an iconic song and people have all their memories attached to that. And you also directed many things over the years, but a pilot of a certain show, Sex in the City, just thinking about your connection to New York.

Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, that was kind of interesting because when I read the script initially, I knew the script was different and funny and sharp. And of course, I love the idea that it was about three, sorry, four female friends. Because the film really, its success is really about the friendship between the women. But again, no one could have imagined, certainly I didn't, that it would become that iconic over the years. You can't predict those things. No, I'm sure you can't. But I suppose when you first see something, you have that feeling, I imagine, or something's there.

Well, you know instinctively whether it gets you or not, whether you like it. But, you know, not everything passes the test of time. I mean, back to desperately seeking Susan for a moment. There was no way I could have predicted 38 years ago when we when we made this that I would be talking to you right now about it. You just you know, you try to make something that's of of its time and that kind of has its finger on the pulse like Sex and the City as well. But you never know whether it's really going to hold up, whether those things will be valid and meaningful for a younger audience that wasn't even born when the film was made.

What do you think it was about the representation of those characters in Desperately Seeking Susan that has meant we're having this conversation nearly 40 years on? I think it's because it has a theme that's universal and timeless and we can connect with the idea that within all of us, there's another person that's wanting to get out your kind of authentic self, you know, the part of you that wants to be more adventurous or bolder or just have a more vivid life,

whether you're a man or a woman. And that's what the movie's about, sort of getting in touch with your inner Susan. What's your inner Susan like, Susan? Sorry? What's your inner Susan like, Susan? Well, my inner Susan is a combination of the two characters, Roberta and Susan.

I mean, I grew up in suburban Philadelphia, so I could have very easily have been Roberta, the housewife, easily. But then I escaped from the suburbs and moved to New York City in the mid-70s because I wanted to be a part of something that I thought was more exciting and artistic and creative. And so there's that part of me which relates to the Madonna character. Yeah, well, that's why I suppose, as you say, people want to, they can find a bit of themselves in both and they want to go that way. Do you think you pushed your Madonna character as far as you could in New York in the 70s, the 80s? Well, I think she became representative

of that specific time period. I mean, when you look at her attitude, but also the clothing and just the whole style of the film, I think it's very much of its time. And yet, you know, culture cycles around, you know, so some of those things feel very modern today. Yes, they do. And also for you, it must have been the whole time you're referred to as a female director, a woman director, those things at least seem to have changed in some ways,

but I don't know what your take is. Well, I think it's changed a lot, not so much in terms of big Hollywood feature films, but certainly in terms of television. I mean, I think one of the things about streaming is that there are a lot more women who are directing episodic TV. And it's not at all unusual to see the title directed by followed by a woman's name. When I was coming of age in the when I went to film school, I went to NYU film school in the mid seventies. I didn't have any female role models. There were maybe, there were a few women I knew in Europe who were directing movies, but in the United States, Barbara Streisand, I can't, and Elaine May,

but that was it. I couldn't think of any, anyone else who was directing a feature film. Susan Seidelman, good to talk to you. As you say, you couldn't have predicted this, but nearly 40 years on, a new limited edition Blu-ray box set, first time UK release of Desperately Seeking Susan, not a film you only took because your name was in it, is out this week. Very good to talk to you and lovely to hear some of your memories.

And messages also coming in about all sorts of things that we've talked about today. And there's this one from David who says, really interesting to hear, going back to quizzes and relationships. Really interesting to hear both items. I've now decided to enter Mastermind and my specialised subject is going to be arguments I've had with my wife. Not sure you can get that through. But David, we take the point. And thank you very much for your messages today across a whole range of subjects, as always, and for your company. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. Thanks for listening to the

Woman's Hour podcast. I just need to clarify something in this programme that's come to light since it was broadcast on Tuesday. Brain of Britain's list of women finalists included a trans woman, a detail which was not made available to the Woman's Hour team when we covered the story. I'm Helena Merriman, creator of the podcast Tunnel 29, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast for BBC Radio 4 called Room 5, Stories of Real-Life Medical Mysteries. We're sparked by my own shock diagnosis a few years back

in Room 5 at my local doctor's surgery. In Series 1, we heard stories about psychosis, endometriosis, trauma, and my story about hearing loss. After the series came out, hundreds of you wrote to me with your stories. Some of you had been searching for answers for years, a whole string of tests and appointments. For some, it was the shock you never saw coming. But there's one thing these moments share. They're never the end of the story,

but the start of a new one. I had no warning of the massive bombshell that was about to be dropped to me. And I said, I am broken, and I need you to work out what it is. And they looked like a choir of singing vaginas. Suddenly, all these bells just start going, ring, ring, ring, ring. I'm on this sofa looking straight ahead of me, and I see another shadowy figure. Sort of every fibre in your body zings into action again. There's just that one word.

Live. Room 5 with me, Helena Merriman. Back for Series 2 with eight more medical mysteries. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.