Woman's Hour - Looking back on a momentous year & Jane Garvey's last programme

Episode Date: December 31, 2020

We look back at the end of a momentous year. Jane revisits listeners we spoke to during 2020, Sarah whose father died from Covid in April, Lizzie who gave birth alone to baby Bibi in May, Gillian who���s been battling with Long Covid, and Deborah whose (good-natured) bickering with her partner escalated during lockdown.And author, journalist and How to Fail podcaster Elizabeth Day interviews Jane about all the things that have and haven't gone right during her time at Woman's Hour. Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Elizabeth Day Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. It is hello, good morning. Now, over the next 44 minutes, we are going to try to do justice to some of the subjects we've covered during the course of this pandemic year. It's not going to be easy. We've got everything in the next 44 minutes. We've got birth. I'm afraid we've got death.

We've got long COVID. And we've just got the everyday grind of what you might call ordinary life as well on the programme. And it is the last time I'll ever be in this room with that cooker to do Woman's Hour. And I do have a friend with me today at a social distance, Elizabeth Day, the terrific writer and podcaster is here. Elizabeth, good morning to you. Good morning, such an honour. Yes. Well, you've said it, love. Let's just own it. No, Elizabeth is going to,

this is slightly up our own fundament, but Elizabeth is going to talk to me towards the end of the programme about what are we going to talk about, actually? Some of my highlights. Your phenomenal broadcasting career thus far. Yeah, excellent. That'll be, that's the spirit.

And if you'd like to take part at BBC Women's Hour on social media. Or you can text us on 84844, but do check the charges there. So let's start with Sarah, who back in April, in a programme about death and dying, talked to us about her father, Bill, who died on the 8th of April. He was 87. Sarah lives in Sheffield. Her dad was in London. And at the end of March,

her dad became unwell, but didn't have any obvious COVID symptoms. So when Sarah got to London, she saw that her father was really very poorly. He said to me, I don't want to go to hospital. I don't feel well enough to go to hospital. I said, that's where you go when you're not well enough. But the paramedics turned up and they could see that he was in a very poorly state. I went with him in the ambulance. We got kitted up. We went to the back entrance of Whips Cross.

It was very bizarre. It was like an episode of The Handmaid's Tale, you know, kind of quite surreal. I said to Dad, don't worry, I'll stay with you the whole time. We were put in a queue. It got to my dad's turn to be taken into hospital, and that's the last time I saw him. It was really, really traumatic, not having any information. We didn't even know until the Monday that he had coronavirus. Somebody phoned us up. By the way, I'm not blaming anybody because everybody is under pressure, but somebody just phoned us up and rather

clumsily told me that dad did actually have coronavirus and that he was on oxygen um and to be really honest that that day and the day after I didn't feel very well and I really panicked. I thought my dad's going to die, then Mo, his wife's going to get it and she's going to die. Then I thought, you know, I'll get it and I'm going to die and I won't see my children again. I felt really, really panicked. But I spoke to friends and family who were brilliant. There were some neighbours where Mo lives who just were absolutely incredible. It's like the kindness of strangers. But there's quite a few things that really helped me.

It's quite personal. So one of them was I found onsted flats and the Epping Forest and each day I went for a really long walk and looked at nature so sounds a bit sounded like a hippie but it really did help me it kind of brought me into the present and if the present was that I was really upset I just went with it. You know I've had to totally reframe my view of death and funerals because the stark reality is that I don't actually know where my dad is at the moment. He died in hospital um you're supposed to register the death within a week um it's been two weeks and the registrar is chasing up the hospital um when i went for a walk on wonsted flats which was you know kept me sane while while i was walking on Wanstead Flats,

they erected a morgue at one end, which is pretty horrific. But we've chosen to remember my dad. He died when it was a full moon, and he loved the moon, so we've chosen to remember him by the moon. And also every time we drive past the betting shop, because he did like a flutter on the horses. I thought that was absolutely perfect.

That is Sarah remembering her dad, Bill, who died on the 8th of April. Now, in May, as part of a programme about having a baby during lockdown, I talked to Lizzie from London. Lizzie had given birth on her own to a daughter, Bebe, a couple of weeks before. But because of the lockdown, she and her husband had to make a difficult decision. He stayed at home with their toddler. She went into hospital.

Things were going all right. And if you heard this, you won't have forgotten it until Lizzie developed a complication with her heart. I gave birth and I should say that the staff uh midwives obstetricians were amazing throughout the delivery um to the extent they allowed me to facetime my husband and indeed my mother god mothers of my daughters to give me encouragement before i started going into stage two of labor so the active pushing um called my husband straight after delivery, FaceTimed the site of his newborn daughter, and then things started to go a bit wrong.

I didn't quite appreciate at the time, I think, how serious it was, but in short, I had an undiagnosed pulmonary embolism, so a blood clot in my lung, and it had put pressure on my heart, obviously during the pushing stage of delivery, such that my heart had gone into distress. And what became apparent afterwards is that I'd had what they call a cardiac event, so effectively a sort of mini heart attack during delivery. I just want to own, and I want you to own the fact, that you've been in labour on your own in hospital for any number of hours, and then this happened, you contacted I think your best

friend and your mum because you thought you were going to die yes so this was actually I should say I didn't want to worry my husband who has oh sorry I think this is just this is BB it's absolutely fine please don't worry about that um so I had actually I'd said to my husband everything was fine um and you should go to bed because by this point it was midnight and he'd been looking after our daughter all day. And it got to about half past two in the morning. It was quite clear they'd asked for my consent to give me a CAT scan or CT scan rather in the same scan as they were using for COVID victims. But obviously there's risks attached to that. So they needed my consent. And it was quite clear from the very delicate way in which the obstetrician was trying to explain to me that I was effectively dying and they needed to work out why and it was at that point that I didn't really know what to do and I just wanted to hear my

mother's voice so I sent her a text message asking if she was awake she knew I was in labour and she went back going yes and I rang her and I just said oh I just wanted a quick chat just wanted to just wanted to talk to you and she quickly clocked that I was not in a in a postnatal ward that there was roeddwn i eisiau sgwrs cyflym, roeddwn i eisiau siarad â chi ac fe wnaeth hi gyflymio yn gyflym bodwn i ddim yn y gofal hwnnw, roedd rhywbeth yn digwydd. Ac, chi'n gwybod, ar y pwynt hwn, fe wnes i ddweud beth oedd yn digwydd ac roedd hi'n hynod o ddiddorol ac eto, chi'n gwybod, yn y prynu i'r blaen, fe wnes i alw fy mab a ceisais i ddweud i'w ddweud yn dda beth oedd yn digwydd ac roedd hi'n hynod o ddiddorol, ond byddwn i'n dweud tell him what was happening and he was incredibly reassuring but I would say that I think it was utterly terrifying for him for my mother for my best friends it was it was probably more scary

for them than it necessarily was for me on the whole during the experience yes well you say that I'm not sure whether anybody listening will necessarily you've been through such a lot Lizzie and I want to congratulate you obviously obviously, for coming through all this. You are all right. I am. Lizzie, how is life now in terms of previous contributors have mentioned that idea of a cocoon? Have you been able to establish that? Yes, absolutely.

And I just want to add as well that whilst my experience was, you know, with hindsight terrifying, the NHS staff were absolutely unbelievable in the way in which they cared for me and were just so nurturing and I certainly didn't feel alone at any point during the time that I was in hospital without my husband which is saying quite a lot but in terms of afterwards yes absolutely I mean it's been very upsetting obviously that my you know my mother my mother and father-in-law and our immediate family and friends our daughter but I have been able to for example breastfeed quite successfully when I wasn't so successful mother and father-in-law and our immediate family and friends, our daughter and Zess but I have been able to for example breastfeed quite successfully when I wasn't so successful first

time around with my daughter and that's down to just time and being able to be at home. Yeah but without over-egging it we need to make the point that that mother, the mother you rang when you thought you were dying has still not seen you since. I have to say she said she didn't want to see us because she'd get too upset because she wouldn't be able to come anywhere near us but she did drop over a few essential items last week and she saw her from the gate but literally fleetingly and found it very very distressing but certainly my mother and father-in-law haven't seen her yet so all of that is yet to come but we're trying to be positive about it. And if anything, it's something for people to look forward to. Well, that was Lizzie talking to me in May. I

should emphasise, as we did at the time, of course, that what happened to her was extremely rare. So if you're in that position, if you're waiting to have a baby, please be reassured. Lizzie can talk to us again now. Good morning to you, Lizzie. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. How are you? Yes, not too bad at all. Thank you.. So tell us how has it been since May? Well it's been probably an experience unlike any other and indeed my first experience of becoming a mother. It's been lovely in so many very special ways, we've been very much a sort of nuclear family and obviously quite challenging and quite upsetting in others and not being able to see friends and family and to socialise in the way that we did prior to lockdown.

So I would say mixed. Right. It's been mixed to quite an extent because unfortunately you've been back in hospital again with your daughter with with bb what happened yes um so i she's been absolutely fine all the way through um and then she uh caught a bug from her sister who is in nursery um just a normal bug and she just couldn't really shift it and i felt something was quite wrong a couple of weeks ago something changed and we took her into hospital she actually had sepsis so she was in hospital and I was with her for a number of days a couple of weeks ago she's absolutely fine now

but again I was just totally struck by how incredible Chelsea and Westminster were in terms of their care of her and indeed of me in many ways. And I just felt complete, just as reassured and just as comforted as I did when I gave birth to her. And for that, again, I will just be eternally grateful to the NHS for what they've done and continue to do. You wouldn't even guess that there was a global pandemic in terms of the way that they dealt with us and treated us and spoke with us. It was amazing. Well, that is absolutely fantastic. And your own health now, how are you? Yes, I'm fine. I mean, it's taking a lot longer than I thought to get better,

but I'm all right. And, you know, I will be 100% in the not too distant future. So I'm feeling, yes, I'm just feeling very grateful for things, probably more so than I did before. Yes. And what about your mother? I know things were really difficult when we spoke back in May, but what about now? I think it took, I mean, it was a number of weeks before she was able to see Bibi and found that incredibly difficult. You know, during that time, my parents and Laura as well found it incredibly hard not being able to see her.

And indeed, they've only seen her on a handful of occasions over the last, you know, eight months. But I feel very lucky in many ways that my mother has been able to bubble with us, but that's because my father is no longer with us. So I think, again, you know, things are mixed. For every good thing, there is also the other side of the coin of there being a more challenging aspect.

Can you remember this time last year? I was racking my brains and I cannot recall a single thing about last year. I can't remember Christmas Day last year. I can't remember anything. I have to say, and this ties into something else I wanted to say to you, which is that there are vast sort of months that I can't recall, and particularly in the aftermath of Bibi being born. And what I do recall after she was born is I felt quite alone in a very funny way, even though, of course, I had my husband, who's been

amazing and incredibly loving and incredibly supportive. But the experience that I had was one that I found very difficult to talk about and I still do but there was something about your program I've been listening to the podcasts of you and Jenny over months during lockdown when I was by myself in hospital and the sound of your voice and the sound of hers was incredibly comforting and the sense of sort of community that that I feel certainly that Women's Hour provides that when I felt that I needed an outlet to express my gratitude to the NHS and to express my gratitude just generally it was to you and so for that I thank you very very much for everything you've done and continue to do during lockdown in in broadcasting Women's Hour. Thank you so much

Lizzie take care and the very best to to both your daughters and your mum and husband and everybody else and thank you so much. Women's Hour is a very, very special programme. It's been a huge privilege to be a part of it. Now, by October, a new phrase was being bandied around, long COVID. It was originally coined to describe the sort of long tail of the illness for people who've been in hospital with COVID, but it also could be applied to people who hadn't been able to get a test when they'd had a mild dose of it,

then had months of poor health with symptoms like fatigue and shortness of breath. And a lot of people talking, too, about brain fog. Now, women have set up and have led many long COVID support groups. Gillian is 76, lives in Gwynedd in Wales, and told me about her experience of coping with long COVID. I was, for my age, very, very fit, I considered myself. Well, I've had good physical health all my life. I was a cricketer when I was young,

and then in middle age I did mountaineering and marathon mountain walks and runs. I love the mountains. But as I got older, of course uh i started playing golf and that's a quite an energetic sport um so uh yes i've considered myself reasonably fit and i'm very blessed with good health generally um so this has come this really has knocked me for six but uh and in terms of your lifestyle you you are you're living on your own i said well i say on your you've got your springer spaniel haven't you with you yes um who i i guess perhaps

has been going without exercise for the last couple of months that's a problem i used to i got to the stage where i couldn't walk properly so i took him in the car at the mountain sat on a rock by and just let him scamper around which isn isn't really marvellous for him. But of course, there it is. But we're getting a bit better now. Yes. In terms of your state of mind, Gillian, do you mind just telling us how much this has affected you? Well, obviously, like everybody who's suffering with this, I think we do get terribly low, particularly when we feel we're getting better. And we wake up one day, suddenly, oh, God, I feel a lot better. Thank God it's gone.

And we just do a little bit, like changing the sheets on the bed or something, too much. Flat out again for nearly a week. It's ridiculous. And after a while, and it's now seven months since I contracted this, after a while, it gets you down. And what really frightened me recently was I did suffer with depression in my 20s quite severely, but thank God that went away. But I started getting terribly irrational thoughts. I was worried about my state of mind to the extent that I really thought about ending it. I looked because I thought I've got no relatives and I don't want to carry on like this.

You know, I might. What's the what's the point? But of course, my dog saved me in a way. I looked at him. I thought, who's going to look after Garth? So, but Julian, can I just say it's very distressing to hear anybody say that first of all so you have our very best wishes and this is tough and you're there on your own i'm not i've got good friends i've got friends in the golf club i've got good friends but i'm picking the phone up and saying i'll feel dreadful i'll feel um so uh you know it just um but got over that well got over that really uh now but it does it just does have an effect on one state of mind this this ongoing thing i know you know i've been lucky i didn't end up in hospital um i didn't go on to a ventilator i've been very

very fortunate in that respect but my goodness everything else the fatigue the brain fog the muscle aches the shortness of breath pins and needles twitching leg muscles it comes and goes and as one of your earliest speakers said the work now the insomnia yeah because i've always been a very good sleeper but no insomnia now you can't even get sleep that is that's really the final straw for a lot of people i think just julian what's your take when you hear people saying oh i'm fed up with all that i don't want to wear a mask i'm getting so i don't why should i obey the rules what what do you make of all that well um i really think i'm not i wouldn't dare presume to go up to someone and say you ought to be wearing a mask but i do look at them and I think, well,

and particularly not against the young people, but young people who think they're invincible. And when they, if, God forbid, they get this and they get through it at the first stages, I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy, quite frankly. You know, if it hits them, it'll affect their lifestyle. And rather than think about your granny, think about yourselves because this is going to have an effect on you.

Powerful, powerful words from Gillian. Gillian, good morning to you. Oh, good morning. Good morning, Jane. How are you doing now? Tell us. Well,, good morning to you. Oh, good morning. Good morning, Jane. How are you doing now? Tell us. Well, it was two months ago. Since then, I have improved. I have improved.

But having said that, the bad days are getting further and further apart. But having said that, I still, oh God, I've still got to pace myself myself it was this school of thought you know researching post-viral fatigue and all that sort of you know go in stages but what make one day 15 minutes one day 20 minutes and that doesn't work with this no um so really it's just how do i feel today can i go out in the mountain with the dog

yes i'll give it a go and but if i do just that bit too much it's like an electric bulb goes off in my head and oh goodness i've done it again um you know so i just got to make sure i don't get to that level of fatigue that I did before. Your friends, are they a bit sick of you going on about it? Tell me, how do people react? Well, I don't think, they're very sympathetic. Are they good? Yeah, they are. But I don't like talking about it because I have a feeling that I might,

because I might feel this the same about somebody else in my position. Oh, for God's sake, she's making a bit of a fuss about this, you know. Get a grip, Gillian. So I don't say a lot. But honestly, you know, Jane, I feel a bit of a fraud because having heard your previous two speakers and the terrible experiences that they had this year, mine's pretty mild, you know.

So I do feel a bit ashamed of talking about it. Oh, no, no. Absolutely do not feel ashamed, Gillian. I think the reason I wanted you on the programme today, selfishly, was because you are such a great, great speaker and you own your own experience. And it's been a thoroughly miserable one. Listen, you're entitled to say so. Thank you. But I think in my life I've had some worse ones, you know. But I suppose we all have, none of us have an easy passage through life exactly. But no, I got through it. And just forget about 2021.

And 2020, you know hope 2021 will be better. Yes, that's the spirit. It's hard to see how it could be worse, but no, it won't be. It won't be. The vaccines are coming. And any word on that, by the way, around your neck of the woods? On what? Vaccine.

Well, no. In a word. Well, no. We are hoping that the new Oxford one is being manufactured in Wrexham in North Wales. So I'm thinking, oh, we might. But apparently Wales is getting its share of the populations. And so we'll just have to wait and see. Gillian, I hugely admire you and I wish you the very, very best for next year. Take care of yourself. May I say, just before you go, Jane, I have thoroughly enjoyed your

programmes over the years and indeed Jenny's and you both have lost but I wish you all the very best in the future. That's really, really kind of you. Thank you so much. I should emphasise, I cannot emphasise enough, Woman's Hour carries on. It's here tomorrow, it's here next week with Emma Barnett and it will be different and it will be fantastically interesting

and it will still be Woman's Hour. That's the most important thing to emphasise. It's the programme, that's the thing. It's been going since 1946. Deborah is from Pembrokeshire. She lives in a very small village near Fishguard and this is really just about the everyday life that has had to carry on necessarily over the last year.

And Deborah emailed the programme in November to say she and her husband Gary were struggling a little bit together to get on after they'd moved house. So here she is. We moved in June of this year, which meant basically we hadn't had any opportunity to meet any of the people in the village for any great length of time. We don't see a great many people because of where we are physically in Pembrokeshire. So yes, it's not been the best time, I suppose, to make a new start in a new town. Yeah, I'm just going to quote here from your email.

I realise that the bickering between me and my husband had reached an all-time nadir when I found myself secretly flicking the Vs at him as I stomped up the stairs, silently cursing him with each step. A surprisingly satisfying, if ultimately empty, gesture as he sat in the living room, immobile, unoccupied, static again. OK. I mean, you're very honest. You're also happy to acknowledge that yours is not the most serious situation, is it, Deborah? Thankfully, yes. And I think I've been a bit unfair to Gary there. He's not always immobile and static. So what what is your solution been to all this? Well, I found myself a job.

We retired in 2017. I was a teacher. And as soon as I got to the age of 55, I thought, that's it. I'm done. I'm leaving work. I'll never work again. And now I've decided that I'm going to become what's called a housekeeping assistant rather than a cleaner in a holiday park for 11 precious hours a week. Right.

When we'll be able to have some space between us. Well, some space. And also then you'll have something to say when you come back. Well, exactly, because we tend to hear news and gossip when we're together now. So in the evening, there's no sort of, well, what have you learned today time? So hopefully I'll be meeting some new people and I'll be bringing something fresh to the table each evening. Let's hear about Gary's good points.

Come on, because the poor man, he's probably a lovely bloke. What's the best thing about Gary? How good he is with people. People like him. People laugh with him. He's got a great sense of humour. He's really quick-witted

and he makes me laugh all the time. You see, Gary, is he with you at the moment, Deborah? Gary, I mean, I don't mean has he stayed with you? Well, I wouldn't blame him if he didn't. No, he's sitting in the kitchen listening to this on the radio. All right. And how are things now, Deborah? Good, but the job didn't last very long. Oh, dear. What happened there? It lasted three hours. I went for the train.

Hang on. Are there legal implications here? No, no, no, no, no. OK. I went for the train in the morning. And then in the afternoon, we had to clean one of the lodges. Well, no sooner had I put my marigolds on than I wanted to get them back off again. I thought, no, cleaning is not my metier.

You know, my own house needs attention rather than paying attention to these luxury lodges. Right. And as I'm sitting here now looking at the cobwebs and the dust, you know, I really need to clean my own, let alone somebody else's. So, no, I gave it up. All right. So, that attempt to bring a little bit of sparkle into your marriage um didn't last so dare I ask what you're doing now well do you know just by

giving voice to the fact that we were bickering it's just eased it a little bit you know it's sort of acknowledged we were doing it and I did have an epiphany on the beach a couple of weeks ago we were walking the dog on the beach and we saw this huge mound of grey dead stinkiness which had washed up and I assumed it was a seal but the face had been eaten away so it was hard to tell what it was just just a moment this has been the worst year in living memory it's new year's eve come on deborah so gary walked around it and saw that it was a dolphin now i thought oh here it goes we're on pre-bicker mode i'm gonna just you know stick my heels in and say it's a seal and then he'd say dolphin and he'd say seal dolphin seal

dolphin but then he saw the dorsal fin but so then I couldn't stand my ground it was obviously a dolphin not a seal you had lost now the old Deborah though would have insisted that it was a seal right but the new Deborah I said these words Gary you're right and he maintains that in 17 years I've never used those particular words in that particular order um okay and so as the nation focuses on that decomposing face on Putgwylod beach yes I'm glad you said it um Deborah thank you go on carry on no go on well we did have a relapse though a couple of days ago We bickered about whether the woodpecker on the bird feeder in the back garden is the same woodpecker that appears on the bird feeder in the front garden. I say it's a different bird. It looks different.

It's a different size, different markings. Gary says it's the same one. So we did have a little bit of a bicker. We just, we can't help ourselves. I agree with gary um deborah uh take care have a really really reasonable new year's eve uh and a great thank you very much 2021 and happy new year and to you thank you so much really appreciate it and if you're not you haven't got a book deal uh deborah you deserve one um that was absolutely fantastic tomorrow at woman's hour is

here with a program about the women of Ambridge. The Archers is 70, as you'll know. And your host tomorrow is the brilliant Felicity Finch, who, of course, plays Ruth Archer in The Archers. She is here tomorrow, two minutes past ten. Now, journalist, how-to-fail podcaster and fantastic writer Elizabeth Day is here. Well, you have been.

You were a bit weepy earlier on, but you've pulled yourself together. I've been moved to tears and to laughter during this programme. You've been sitting there stony-faced, ever the professional, not moved by decomposing dolphins. But can I just say, it's such a privilege

to be here and it is so typical of you, Jane, that you've made your final programme all about the listeners and not about you. I'm going to change that now. Oh, good. I'm secretly pleased about that. Everyone knows that you've made your final programme all about the listeners and not about you. I'm going to change that now. Oh, good. I'm secretly pleased about that. Everyone knows that you're a phenomenal journalist, but listeners are particularly going to miss your self-deprecating style and the way you make everyone laugh.

We've put together just a small selection of some of your most memorable moments. The sultry Spanish accent you hear in the middle is the slightly bewildered Penelope Cruz. Now I make a cup of tea, first thing I do every single morning of my life, I'm afraid to say I lob in a bag, a sweetener and the milk and then the hot water. That's appalling, is it? Oh, Nancy Mitford would disown you. What are you going to make for us today then? In fact you can go over now to your very elaborate

chopping table that we've set up for you there. It is a salad Jane I'm afraid. No sorry. Only because it's terrible to cook anything in here so I thought something that I could toss together would be better. I mean the trouble is salad I never crave a salad

now are you seriously going to tell me that you can put me in a situation where I am fantasising about eating a salad? This is a salad of watercress, fennel, oranges, feta, and then honeyed almonds. Honeyed almonds? I have to say, and I'm going to be really honest with you, I think you're a fabulous cook.

I think some of the salad ideas in this new book strike me as being just... I'm thinking about myself, 20 to 6 in the evening, trying to cobble something together for the tea at 6 o'clock. I'm a northerner, we're early eaters. Some of the ingredients I'd never heard of. Really? Like what? Well, I mean, some of the seedy, pulsy things.

I mean, nearly all supermarkets have those, don't they, Jane? OK, so I'm just being lazy. You're at the chocolate aisle. I'm at the hollow Easter novelty item aisle. That's where I am. Indoor relationship. Am I being naive or is that... I mean, I know people have indoor cats.

I know I'm going to be told off because I'm straying into cat areas again and that's not good. Of which I'm certain You actually lived in London, didn't you, for quite some time when you were making this film? Yes, in Belsize Park. I can't imagine you in London somehow.

I love that area. Yeah, and I love London. The only thing that is hard for me is the weather because, you know, I'm Spanish and we are used to have a lot of sun. Yeah, but it's not just that. It's the whole Spanish way of life where you get up late, you eat late at night. But that's not true. Spanish people cannot wake up late every day like everybody thinks. Everybody works, maybe. Everybody has dinner later.

Oh yeah, right. Well, how would people work if everybody did that? Well, that's what I don't understand. I've been to Spain and people are going out to eat at 11 o'clock at night. Yes, and maybe the shops open at 10 instead of at 8. You know, the schedule is a little bit later, but the same amount of hours of work are accomplished okay so did you transport your spanish way of life to belsize parkland to

everywhere i go do i still can't have dinner not when i'm in america or anywhere else i can have dinner at 6 p.m no you just can't do it for me no no i eat at 5 30 what i know i just don't care i'm starving. But then what time do you go to sleep? About nine. And then you wake up at six? Yeah. No.

Yes, there were times I'm sure you knew When I'd fit off More than I could chew Curtis, you are about to get the opportunity of a lifetime. Oh, I'm very interested right now. Because I've had a lot of them recently, actually. But this is going to be...

Because I want you to attempt to teach me to do a couple of extremely simple dance steps. Absolutely. All health and safety has been taken care of here. We've got a sensible surface. I'm not in the most sensible of shoes, but they're not my highest either. And I'm going to hand over to everybody else while I slip over with you to the mat. We're going to do a basic cha-cha.

Oh, it just couldn't be any more basic. It's got to be the most basic cha-cha-cha. It will be very basic, so don't you worry at all. All right, let's go over there. Shirley, I would like you to slip into commentator mode. And now, as tears subside, I find it all so amusing. Plenty of you wanted to know the conclusion of the frozen eyeball story, and the good news is he's fine, and his eyeballs are defrosted.

And even as I say that, I'm just thinking. Anyway, he was OK. I should have asked. Another failure of what passes for my journalism, but sometimes time is against us, she said, covering her tracks. Is there another pair of boots you haven't discussed? Forgive me, I got so lost in that moment there that I've slightly lost track of the boot conversation, but carry on.

My third pair was the pair of running shoes. I was supposed to lead an Everest marathon trip this year on the 29th of May, which is the date that Tenzing Hillary summited Everest. Unfortunately, due to the pandemic, that was cancelled. I did run my marathon here in Wiltshire. So I have run a marathon and I hope to do it in 2021. Oh, I am...

Well, I mean, I seem to be speaking to a lot of women this week. We talked to Pip Hare, who's doing the Round the World sailing race yesterday, and I come away just thinking, you know, I'm happy if I've gone to Greggs and come back successfully. She looks a little nervous. The head is a little bit tilted there.

She needs to get that posture a little bit. But she completed the step. Never use the same foot twice, darling. Think of dancing as that walk. It literally is. Left, right, left, right, left. Always change weight. One foot to the other. For the sake of the nation's sanity, let's go to the music. Here's a backhanded compliment from John, who says, I may be getting boring,

but this was another interesting and relevant programme this morning. Thanks. And we heard there from Penelope Fogler, Diana Henry, Penelope Cruz, Curtis Pritchard, Shirley Ballas and Valerie Parkinson and of course the inimitable Jane Garvey. Yes actually I'm going I am going a bit wobbly now but then we are allowed we're having a drink. We are. We are now having a drink. A socially distanced drink. Now you've been here for 13 years at the helm and you're leaving in the midst of a pandemic. How are you feeling right now? Genuinely, this has been one of the toughest decisions of my life. And I could, the reason I'm going is because I could have stayed. And I sometimes think the

hardest thing is to change when it's actually the last thing you want to do, but probably the best thing to do is the best thing for the programme, which is I really do mean it. When I say that, I think I love radio. I've loved radio all my life and I've been so, so fortunate to have a job doing the thing that actually I will. I will go home today and I will listen to the radio for the rest of today and all of tomorrow and all of the day after. I just love live radio. But Woman's Hour Hour is one it's not just a radio program it's one of the radio programs and I've had the chance to do it and it's just been an amazing privilege but the program needs to move on and now it can and that's good. You've changed Woman's Hour but how has Woman's Hour changed you do you think? Oh my goodness I have learned so much I have learnt so much about the social history and about women's lives. You know, the terrible truth, and it is always terrible,

is that when I came to Women's Hour, I knew about feminism and I was a feminist. But I'm not sure I really saw I'd wanted to be a radio presenter and I'd become a radio presenter. And so I'd think, what are people complaining about? And during the course of this cataclysmic 13 years on Woman's Hour, I have learnt that actually, for all sorts of reasons, women have to be that bit better. We have to try harder. It's going to be a bit tougher for us. And I really am glad that I've been able to play a small part in just opening up a whole range of conversations. We have had some eye-watering conversations on this programme

and completely frank and completely honest ones. And you can interview all the celebrities on earth and you know this and some of them are great and some of them aren't so great. The conversations you remember are like the ones we had this morning with the listeners and talking about their real lives. That's what the listeners to this programme really like, I think. I think one of the things that the listeners also value is your authenticity, which is a much overused word.

But I think authenticity comes with a certain degree of confidence. Do you think you're confident? Oh, God. Because you're always yourself. You're the same off- as you are on air. And that's a very rare quality, I think. Yes, I think it's relatively unusual. It's not unknown in broadcasters.

It's relatively unusual. I love doing this and I know that I can do this. But however, that's not something I could apply to many other areas of my life. So I have been, again, to go back to that, I've been so lucky to do the thing I can do and do it for a living. So in general, not confident, no, but I know what I can do. And we talked about what you will miss. What won't you miss?

Timings. People like the woman next door who's already gearing up to shout, 44 minutes, 30 seconds. That that's what I won't miss and apart from that I can't think of anything that I won't miss about this programme. The people are the listeners are remarkable there's such a cross-section we've got men who listen we've got men who listen to be annoyed we've got men who listen to learn about women and the women in their lives and that that's brilliant. And I know they're hugely welcome. Our female audience ranges in age from, I don't know, 19 to 103.

We get emails from women in their 90s. We get just such a cross section of experience and point of view. And I absolutely love that. And also our listeners are genuinely unshockable. We talk about all sorts of stuff. Very, very rarely do they complain about any of it or raise any concerns about what they've heard. They are interested, they are open,

they are the backbone of the nation and I'm so proud to have been a part of it. But I have to say that I really need to thank those people who over the last year have come in and kept this programme going. It's not been easy at times and I want to thank the studio managers who've saved me from myself on more occasions people who over the last year have come in and kept this programme going. It's not been easy at times. And I want to thank the studio managers who've saved me from myself on more occasions than I care to remember, from my colleagues who've come in,

particularly during the last couple of months when it's been really tough. And central London in April and May were not easy places to be. And I know people have really put themselves out. And then, of course, there are the people who've been working from home as well during this time, faces I just see now on Zoom, haven't seen them since March. Lots of love to them too. And thank you for keeping us going. And to the listeners for sticking with us as well, because it's not been easy for them either. Well, I know that they will want to thank you very much too. Just very quickly, it was inaccurately reported somewhere that you were retiring,

but you are a mere whippersnapper. So what's next? What is next? Well, I am doing a new interview series for Radio 4 in the new year, which will happen hopefully in the spring. And everything is going to be better in the spring. We know that, so that will be good. Also, fortunately, the podcast that I cobbled together with Little Feiglover is coming is

coming to Radio 4 as well and so we've got we have got lots of interesting stuff going on but the most important thing to emphasize is that Woman's Hour is I will now be forever known as a former presenter of Woman's Hour and that's as far as I'm concerned is absolutely fine I'll settle for that. Thank you Jane Gar, so much for everything you've done and everything that you are. Elizabeth, thank you very much indeed for coming in. I can hardly thank her enough, actually, for saying that. No, I really appreciate it.

And to the listeners, it's a shame in many ways I'm leaving just as some of you are getting used to me because it cannot be said enough that listeners to Radio 4 are somewhat change resistant as am I as an individual but change can be really positive. Woman's Hour is here tomorrow it's back on Monday good luck to Emma Barnett as well because she is going to be an astonishing and tremendously capable presenter of this really important programme so stick with us we'll be back at two minutes past 10 tomorrow morning.

And again, of course, throughout next week and indeed forever. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.