Woman's Hour - Lorna Luft on White Christmas. Mussolini's daughter. COP 27

Episode Date: November 7, 2022

Hailing from theatrical royalty, daughter of Judy Garland, actor and singer Lorna Luft is recognised as an iconic star of stage and screen. About to embark on a UK tour playing housekeeper Martha Watson in the much-loved musical White Christmas, she joins Emma Barnett to explain what draws her back to this role time after time.The Prime Minister is in Sharm El Sheikh for this year's COP27 UN climate change summit - after coming under some pressure to attend in person. But 110 country leaders will be there. Money will feature high on the agenda and is sure to be a sticking point in negotiations. Leaders of those representing developing countries want developed nations like the US, UK and those of the EU to pay for the "loss and damage" they've suffered. We hear from Elise Buckle co-founder of SheChanges Climate and environmental campaigner Georgia Elliott Smith who is not going to this COP A new biography of Edda Mussolini highlights her pivotal role in 1930s Italy during one of the most violent periods in human history. As the daughter of Italian dictator Benito Mussolini she was a powerful proponent of the fascist movement. Author of a new book all about her - Edda Mussolini the Most Dangerous Woman in Europe. - Caroline Moorehead joins Emma Barnett to talk about her role as a key role player and not just a witness to twentieth century European history.And we want your help. A listener got in touch to describe how, in a discussion with a male colleague about the gender pay gap, she was told to ‘not take it personally’ and ‘calm down’. She'd like you tips on how to as she puts it "tackle this rebuttal often used by men to silence women who attempt to challenge male dominance in the work place” Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. As the Prime Minister Rishi Sunak and the former Prime Minister Boris Johnson do the rounds at COP27, the UN Climate Summit which kicks off in Egypt today, I wanted to test the temperature with you about one of the newest motions tabled for discussion. Having presented this programme for coming up to two years, I know the environment is something that matters greatly to many of you. Indeed, research has consistently shown that women care

and are more likely to make ethical choices because of their concerns around climate. Women are reported to be more likely to worry and report worry about both the impact of climate change and anxiety about the future of the environment than men. And many also argue women are more vulnerable than men to the impacts of climate change because they represent the majority of the world's poor and are proportionately more dependent on threatened natural resources. With economic pressures then on the home front, and as we await that financial update

from the new Chancellor, and with today's front pages, to give you one example, filled with the news of the biggest ever strike by nurses looking to go ahead in a dispute over pay, the 110 political leaders at COP are to debate the idea of climate change damages, that those countries which industrialised first should pay money to the developing countries now bearing the brunt of fossil fuelled economies and climate change, leading to weather events which wipe out homes, schools and businesses. Do you support that? There has been a division, it seems, but we don't quite yet know, and I'll come to that in a moment, in our political parties on this. But what is your view? Do you think we should be supporting those countries financially? You can have that discussion here. You may not be in Sharm el-Sheikh with the leaders that represent all of us, but you are here with us here on Radio 4, with us here on Women's Hour,

and I'd like to hear what you think. 84844 is the number you need to text. The programme text will be charged to your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. You can email me. You always can through our website. You can also send a WhatsApp message or a voice note using a different number.

Let me give that to you. 03700 100 444. Also on today's programme, a woman may be running Italy now for the first time as Prime Minister, but as some take to the streets to mark 100 years since the birth of fascism, it's another woman, Edda Mussolini, that's coming under new scrutiny.

We'll find out more. Lorna Luft is going to be here, the acclaimed performer and part of the Hollywood dynasty as Judy Garland's daughter, because she's preparing to tour again in the UK with the musical White Christmas. And what do you say? A bit of help here, a bit of advice requested when you've been told to calm down by a man at work when you're making a perfectly reasonable point. Some of your best lines, please. You can often only think of the best thing to say

after the event. I'm regularly in that position. I'm sure I'm not alone. But genuinely, there's been a request for advice from one of you, from one of our listeners who has written in and we would like to help. So please get those messages in now and you can go for it. Go for it. Really go for it. But Rishi Sunak in Sharm el-Sheikh, he nearly wasn't, remember that, for COP27, the UN Climate Change Summit, after coming under pressure to attend in person. The leaders we hear of China, India, Australia, Russia and Canada will not be attending, but it's estimated 110 country leaders are there, will be there and will be discussing what to do. Money will be featuring high on the agenda and is sure to be a sticking point in negotiations. Over the last 12 months, the developing world has faced severe climate-related

crises from flooding in Pakistan to drought in East Africa. Leaders of those representing developing countries want developed nations like the US, the UK and those of the EU to pay for the, quote, loss and damage that they've suffered. They also want help to make that switch to cleaner energy and infrastructure. So will they get the finance from the UK? The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, Grant Shapps, spoke to my colleagues on the Today programme earlier. We're looking to work internationally to recognise

that if we're going to get the entire world to net zero by 2050, then we've got to work cooperatively. Yes, we're supporting the overall work. We don't know where that will end at this stage. But we're also pleased to see that during our presidency, we've gone from what is it like 30% of the world's GDP covered by pledges to get to net zero to 90% now. So we've been moving in the right direction. So are we accepting the principle of loss and damage payments to poor countries affected? So we're accepting the principle that there's a discussion to be had about this. And actually, in a sense, that's been accepted all along. Today, for example, the Prime Minister's

announcing over £65 million of assistance to developing countries to be able to produce energy in a sustainable way. There's been a sort of tacit acceptance. We did, of course, industrialise first. I'm in the north-east today. I'm in Teesside. We industrialised first. And we appreciate that the rest of the world needs to be able to bring themselves along as well. So they could happen, the payments, therefore?

Well, as I say, there's a big international discussion going on. That's one of the things that's happening at COP27 in Egypt. And we're supportive of discussions going on. That's the British position. Joining me now, Elise Buckle, co-founder of She Changes Climate and the environmental campaigner, Georgia Elliott-Smith, who is not going to this year's COP.

Georgia, if I start with you, that decision, we're getting views coming in already about the idea of climate change damages, some calling it reparations, but whatever you want to call it, we understand the principle. And we just heard from the UK government's representative's representative certainly who was made available this morning that there

is an acceptance that there needs to at least be a discussion about it what's your take um i think oh good morning first of all i think that um loss and damage is absolutely critical to this process the developing world holds really the key to dealing with climate change in the future. They are developing the standard of living, the amount of emissions associated with the developing world is growing exponentially. We really need the developing world on board and we need to deal as well with the damage that we've caused. You know, the developing nations like Pakistan, Bangladesh, you know, we're seeing terrible results of climate change that are killing hundreds of thousands of people there. But they simply don't have the economy and they shouldn't have to spend money on repairing all of the damage that our industrial climate change carbon emissions have caused.

What would you say? I mean, if you talk about Pakistan, if you talk about certain countries, there are arguments about each of those, that there is money in that country, for instance, to look at things like space, technology. There's money for certain things within their budget. So why should somewhere like the UK, which is also facing its own economic issues, start writing checks? Because historically, developing nations have not been the cause of the problem. So they are paying for our industrialization. And it is not right. They deserve a developing economy. You know, they deserve to have a better standard of living, to increase their technology and their industry. But they're dealing with such terrible effects of climate change that that's going to cause long-lasting problems for them. And it is right that we pay our dues. I also

think that our cost of living crisis is directly related to our inability to deal with climate change impacts. If we look at, for example, insulating buildings, I work in the construction sector. We have some of the worst property in Europe. The quality of our housing is very poor when it comes to insulation. But instead of spending a relatively small amount of money on insulating those homes, the government is spending huge amounts of money on subsidies for oil and gas. You know, the money is available. It is just simply being spent in the wrong places. Sorry, the money is available, you're saying, in uk and i'm sorry for that interruption there was elise buckle good morning to you let me just say that first of all good morning i did introduce you i will come to you in just a moment

we were having some issues with your sound but just to keep going with with georgia on the uk point here which i know you can speak to as well elise you're talking there there's the money available to to insulate buildings in the uk but you also think there's the money available to insulate buildings in the UK, but you also think there's the money available to pay developing countries? Yes, I absolutely do believe that. When we look at the scale of the investments involved, the money is available. It's just being spent in the wrong places. How much money do you think we should spend then? Well, first of all, I mean, we should be paying the money that we've already pledged to spend. So, you know, the UK has not been paying the 300 million pounds, for example, that it already should have paid by September. Now, that scale of investment is really when you talk about national scale investments, that's not huge have been studies done by the construction councils that show that insulating for things and for projects in the UK and what appetite there is for that and then this talking about abroad as well which is what's on to be discussed at COP

which I know you've made the decision not to go to perhaps we'll come to that in a moment but there's a message here just let me give you this one more to respond to the developing countries in Africa have received trillions of dollars in aid over the past 50 years, the bulk of which has been propped up by utterly corrupt regimes. To ask on the grounds of climate change to continue this pattern of handouts,

normally to the detriment of the majority of people living in these countries, is misguided and dangerous unless the funds are administered 100% by the donor countries. What do you make of that? There's a couple of nuances within that. Yeah, I think the issue of the finance is a separate issue from the issue of corruption. And I absolutely believe that the issue of corruption

should be dealt with. But I also think that Western economies not providing the necessary finance is itself corrupt. There is a very real impact of climate change in developing countries, in things like in countries that are struck with storms. Electricity lines come down. Communities are prevented from getting essential services. That has to be paid for as an urgent life-saving measure by these countries. That has to be dealt with through international finance. It's not right that those countries are having to bring themselves out of poverty and also pay for the impacts of climate change. The issue of corruption, as you say, you know, is something separate and is something that should be addressed with through the right finance mechanism.

The right finance mechanisms haven't been found a lot of the time. That's been the concern because of the way some of these countries are run and money is operated. It's a very real concern about the waste of money at a time like this. Elise, good morning. You're going to COP27. What are your hopes? I am on my way, almost. Yes. And I think this issue of climate finance is absolutely essential. What we are discussing now at COP is finance for loss and damage. And indeed, we need to find new mechanisms to leverage finance because countries haven't delivered on their pledges. That's true. There is a discussion now on financial transaction tax and also on taxing oil and gas profits because climate change is also a social justice issue. I mean, there are poor people in the UK, indeed, that can't afford energy. So why is it that we are

not taxing the large companies that are making profit, especially on oil and gas right now? So there's also another issue that's very important right now on the table. And it came up in our She Changes Climate Summit on Friday. We were welcoming more than 100 women leaders from around the world. It's about debt cancellation, because since COVID-19 and with the economic crisis and the war in Ukraine, the debt has been increasing, in particular in Africa. And this is the COP of Africa. COP 27 is hosted by Egypt on behalf of Africa. So are you saying to cancel debt and then to pay damages, or are you saying that is a way of paying damages? Well, both because, you know, we can't just focus on development aid. If the debt is exploding,

it's not going to have any impact. So debt cancellation is also important. And for Africa in particular, because, you know, there are 54 countries in Africa that are only responsible for 3% of global emissions. So they're not really responsible for the problem, but they are being impacted a lot, a lot more than other continents. 54 countries responsible for 3% of emissions. So that's a statistic to remember. Messages also coming in supporting this idea of climate change damages.

In fact, using the word reparations others not not using that word which is also striking yes i support reparations it's either that or mass migration which would the listeners prefer and let's start by crapping a scrapping excuse me the new north sea oil licenses another one here yes we should give aid to countries affected by global warming another one i'm so glad you aid to countries affected by global warming another one i'm so glad you're inviting us to consider our duty as the first and worst industrialized nation to do our duty and pay for the loss and damage done to developing countries as a result of our tireless need for growth it is absolutely our duty what seems to have been accepted so far though at least which is quite far from that sort of point,

is the need to discuss it as opposed to the need for action on it. Yes. So, you know, I've been to multiple COPs and there's always a lot of discussion on the agenda. What is on the agenda? So there has already been 40 hours of discussion where developing countries had to push really hard to make sure loss and damage was on the agenda. So I think this is going to be in the discussion now. That's important. And, you know, loss and damage or reparation, this is a technique of negotiation that sometimes people, I mean, countries try to change the words, but loss and damage is really the historical term that we're using to talk about, for example, Pacific islands that are going to be underwater

because of sea level rise. So some countries are going to lose their country altogether. This is why it's about loss and damage, of course, because when you have hurricanes or sea level rise, cities are also being impacted, people living on the coastal side of things. But what I want to say is we should also look at the solutions. And there are plenty of solutions that are available. What we need is political will and finance to scale up these solutions. And we know that we can also use climate finance to empower women. For example, in Africa, you have farmers, women, who have a lot of solutions to offer to the world for climate action, for nature-based solutions, for food systems that are resilient. And so we need to empower these women to scale up these solutions. It's about phasing out fossil fuels to keep carbon underground, but also restoring forests, restoring ecosystems, restoring oceans, and making sure people and families have food on the table.

So that's going to be a very important topic also for Egypt. You are also concerned about the number of women around the tables and negotiating this time. And of course, I'm sure with your global endeavour, the She Changes climate, that's not an issue. But with COP, what's the view of that and how that could impact things? The number of women in charge? Yes, so we co-founded She Changes climate together with Bianca Pitt and Antoinette Vermillier just before COP26 because we saw they were only men on the delegation, on the presidency team. We're asking for 50% of women on the presidency team. We're asking for 50% of women on the presidency team,

but also now we're asking for co-presidents, co-chairs at every single COP. If you look at the history since 1995, since COP1, when Angela Merkel was president of COP, she was minister of environment at the time. We counted only five women have been presidents of COP. And there's been many COPs that have been disasters. One that was successful was in Paris, COP21.

And actually, you had two excellent women leading the talks, Christiana Figueres and Laurence Tubiana. So we think it's essential to have women at the very top. We're asking for 50-50 at the top. And ideally, two co-presidents, a man and a woman, starting next year. Because we feel we have to work together, men and women together, to ensure that we are going to secure a sustainable future for our children. We are also mothers. I have two children. I care about their future. I worry about their future.

And I think this is also why women have a very powerful voice, because they care about their future. And I think this is also why women have a very powerful voice, because they care about future generations. Elise Buckle, I'll let you get on with your journey to COP27, co-founder of the She Changes Climate. Thank you for your time. Georgia Elliott-Smith, to come back to you, I mentioned this politically in this country, we don't quite know where the Conservatives are going to end up on this.

It's a new leader. And as I mentioned, he wasn't meant to be going to this meeting and has now gone. We did hear yesterday, my colleague Laura Koonsberg was talking to Labour's Ed Miliband, the Shadow Climate and Net Zero Secretary, asked to confirm whether Labour, if it won power at the next election, would give money to developing nations to combat climate change. He said, absolutely. It's about supporting poorer countries completely right. It's morally right. And if we don't act, I'm just paraphrasing here, we're going to end up with the problems that countries face

in terms of refugees, for example, coming back onto us. A point raised by a few of our listeners this morning. You've not gone to this year's meeting, and yet Boris Johnson, also there, just given a speech very recently, about an hour or so ago, saying we need to not lose our enthusiasm. there an enthusiasm about this particular meeting i well i decided not to attend this year's cop i was at cop in glasgow last year and i found it one of the most profoundly depressing experiences of my professional life um it was a lot of ministers and corporate CEOs saying that they have the solution to climate change, that they're going to do everything within their power, you know, actions, not words.

And yet they turned around and it just went back to business as usual. There was no real change from COP26. We know that since COP26, the nationally determined contributions that nations have set will put us on a path to three degrees global temperature increase. There is now Antonio Guterres of the United Nations saying that 1.5 degrees temperature increase is now almost entirely lost. We have no chance of hitting that target. And let's not forget as well, we're now on the 27th of these conferences and we're really no further forwards. So I just see it, as Greta said, as more blah, blah, blah. I believe the solution is elsewhere. And one thing that I found the most depressing was the

corporate influence, the corporate lobbyists. And so when Coca-Cola was announced as this year's sponsor of COP, I started a petition to have them ejected as the sponsors of COP, which got a quarter of a million signatures. Yet the United Nations has failed to acknowledge that and has completely ignored those quarter of a million people. I mean, let's talk about money. Coca-Cola is a 24 billion pound profit company, clear profit each year. Yet they make their money off massive suffering and huge amounts of plastic pollution and emissions. Well, we'll have to get Coca-Cola back on to talk to you perhaps at the same time. Because we do need to hear what they would have to say about that and some of their own initiatives. Not here to respond. But I take the point that there has been, and with others as well, a feeling that this isn't worth it anymore, this particular meeting, because of how it's changed and some of those things that you're raising.

It would be very interesting to talk to you about alternative ways of looking at this and where the solutions might come from. Thank you very much for your time this morning. Someone who cares about the environment, not on the way to COP27. Georgia Elliott Smith, who's made that decision. Many messages coming in on this. And there's one here I wanted to share, which says, first of all, there is no point in COP27 when the major polluters are not attending. Well, some of them are. But I take that point. We talked about which countries aren't going. We're doing our best.

But all we are achieving is providing the big polluters with carbon credits so they can continue to pollute. We're putting our economy in jeopardy to prop theirs up. Secondly, we've been supporting developing countries financially for decades, so we really shouldn't be made to feel guilty about looking at our economy now. Without a healthy economy, we can't look after ourselves or people in the developing world. Someone here, no name on this one either, which says, I'm very suspicious of this pay for climate change thing, but how about from now on, if there is no change, we pay? Maybe that would be an incentive.

Some ideas coming in, which we're always welcome to. Yes, we should pay for the damage we cause. And in addition, we should undo that damage, says LM. Of course, also there's no such thing as ecologically safe. Talking about constant growth, which is the phrase coming from our new prime minister's speeches, it seems so far there'll be certain words

to listen out for. And so they carry on. I'll come back to those messages shortly. Please keep them coming in. Now, we do like to help here on Women's Hour. And if we can, I know sometimes maybe you put more ideas into your mind and you think, well, what am I going to think now? But one of you, our listeners, has been in touch with a question.

She'd like to remain anonymous, but her query is about how to respond when tackling the gender pay gap. You could be forgiven for thinking or even hoping that this was an issue going away or at least affecting fewer women. But you may recall a couple of weeks ago, the Office for National Statistics revealed the gender pay gap for UK workers widened to 88.3%. So it got bigger, rising from 7.7% on the previous year. This is looking at the difference in average earnings from full-time male and female employees. So to this email then that came in, one of our listeners, one of you wrote the following. Hi, Woman's Hour. I'm a regular listener to your show and today I'd like some advice.

I work in an industry that's dominated by men and the gender bias is an ever-present undercurrent. The other day at work, I got into an argument with a male colleague concerning the validity of the gender pay gap. My argument was logical, backed up by validated data, yet despite this, I was shouted down and when the argument got heated I was told to not take it personally and to, quote, calm down.

I would like to ask fellow listeners how they tackle this rebuttal often used by men to silence women who attempt to challenge male dominance in the workplace. How can I protect who I am and assert myself without changing my behaviour to be more, quote, like a man? Is it even possible? I want to continue in my industry because I love it, but this constant gender bias and misogyny is wearing me down. Your thoughts and advice are welcome. Well, the behavioural psychologist Jo Hemmings is on the line, as is Caroline Goida, the voice coach and author of Find Your Voice, The Secret to Talking with Confidence in Any Situation. Caroline, if you found yourself in that situation, what would your voice have said?

Well, I did find myself in that situation. If I go back to Oxford in the 90s, I remember a group of public school boys saying to me, you don't speak up about this, you can't say that about him on an issue that I won't go into. And I remember vividly feeling locked in a box, made small. And what I wish I had said to that girl is centre yourself. Don't accept their framing. Trust your instincts and say what you need to say, but do it calmly because they will listen if you can harness your emotion. But I didn't know how to do that at the time and it was horrible.

So that's about how to handle it and how to perhaps be in your body at that moment. And what would you have said? The best thing I've ever been told to say was a tip from a wonderful coach called Denise Graveline who ran a website called The Eloquent woman in the US and she sadly died but her line to any political people she came across was Reagan's line to Jimmy Carter which is there you go again because it what because it sort of it repeat it sort of deals with what they're doing and puts them down at the same time but in quite a nice way or what's the thinking behind that it's a step back, isn't it?

It's not getting into the weeds of the issue. And it's also planting a seed of uncertainty about, is there a pattern that I'm operating with, which of course there is, it's called the patriarchy, that then makes them step back from it and starts to make them see the system that they're operating in. It's very clever.

It's not to be used every time, but I do think it can work. Thank you for that. I always like news you can use. And I like quotes. It's good to know where they come from. Jo, good morning to you. Morning, Emma. What do you want to say? Because I've just learned the best new phrase where I talked about you think of the best thing to say after you've left and someone's just written it to say it's called staircase wit. The clever answer you think of on the way out i didn't know that one joe what do you want to say to our to our listener well yes i'm in trouble is with the phrase calm down or chill out or any of those is that the immediate effect is to go completely uh into reverse situation it makes you more angry uh because it's patronizing and because it's dismissive and it's

trying to invalidate what you're saying and you don't want to get into a spiral of having an argument about it I just think the best thing you can do is say oh do you not agree with me then or have you got another view because basically it is simply challenging you um by but by doing it in this unpleasant dismissive way so i think the response is definitely not to get more angry yet all our cortisol builds up and we want to be anything but calm um so to simply call it out for what it is which is someone challenging your views or judging your views or not agreeing with your views so ask them if they have an alternative opinion what's yours then what do you think? So I mean, often answering a question or a question with a question or doing something

like that can completely change the direction. I'm also minded to bring up that we've seen in the news only a few days ago, a finance executive, Louise McCabe, who just won £125,000 in her employment tribunal after her chief executive told her to calm down and don't let the hormones get out of control. And I think the other thing that it sparks, which is why it's such a powerful thing to launch as a barb at a woman, is it sparks that feeling that it's only being said because you are a woman. Yes. And what it's doing is trying to put you in your place with huge inverted commas around it, because you know your place, you know who you are, you know that you're a feminist and independent

and you've got to be where you are by hard work, etc. But it's putting you back in your box. It's saying, no, this is where you should be. And it's not something you either should have an opinion on or that opinion is wrong. So hormones are a terrible thing to bring up. I mean, that's very common well that's what's being i mean that didn't happen to our listener but that's what's being

perhaps also alluded to uh at the same time caroline to come back to you i mean i mean what what about saying there's you know something like there's there's just no point in continuing with this with you because you've got your view i mean it's very very hard to actually change people's minds or what do you think of? I think that's certainly something you can say, Emma. And I also think there's something about not just the what we say, but how we say it. And there's something about if positional power is being applied to you, if someone's telling me you can't speak here,

that's often a positional thing. Finding personal power, sitting up, sitting back, centering your nervous system, playing your own personal power, tower above your circumstances, Mayor Angelou called it. I think that also suggests I'm moving on from this. I'm not entering this discussion. And then you find a better time to have it. I was going to say to both of you, there's a message here saying, and we do have a lot of male listeners. I would say I've had a similar experience as a man in an organisation that is 75% female. I've been told to keep emotion out of business by bullying women. It works both ways.

Of course, women may have also told other women to calm down. Caroline, what do you make of that? I think it happens. I hear that and I do understand that men do experience this, but I think they experience it a lot less. It doesn't invalidate it. And I would say that women have to be a lot more agile about handling these. Perhaps the man in question has to have the same agility, but I think more women struggle with this than men in general. We've got some replies coming in, which to put to both of you that I wanted to share. I would say this one here very icily. Tell the man, no, you calm down, but I'm on the autistic spectrum, so I may find it easier to say. Another one, I used to say,

do you practice being this rude or patronising or ridiculous? Or does it come naturally as a response to have in your pocket and another one so you should say i see do you think women should be paid less than men for the same job i didn't realize you were such a chauvinist is that actually a good idea joe do you think to to try and call it out there and then i do think it's a good idea the problem is that when it happens to us we don't necessarily expect it so we're not always as good with those spontaneous, clever responses as we might be. Because what happens is we get bursts of cortisol, the stress hormone in the body, that makes us feel very uncalm, very angry for all the dismissive, judgmental, challenging implications that phrase holds.

So I think these are great solutions, but we don't always have them to hand at the moment that we need them because we're not necessarily expecting someone to turn around when we'll have a passionate, you know, a hard belief, and we're talking about it, to be reduced down to size that quickly.

I also find smiling is quite a good moment. When you're in the most heated it can be I always have a smile ready to go because it's completely not what's expected and I don't know if that's because obviously I have you know live conversations that could go any direction most days of the week but but it often changes things when I've been in in such situations where it's got heated because that's what I'm aware of our listener has got in touch to say it began to get heated and then that's what happened. Thank you to both of you for your views and how to feel

and why this is such a thing to say to a woman and why it can make people feel so different and difficult in the moment. One here saying, eyebrows raised, chin up, how very patronising. At least that should take the wind out of their sails. Regarding staircase comebacks, nothing beats, in your opinion. It's very nice. It's a good reply. Somebody once said to me,

I can't help it. I'm a victim of my own personality. I asked them what they were going on about when saying something they shouldn't be. Another one, best phrase for a wide variety of situations or put-downs is, what an extraordinary thing to say. Yeah, finding it intriguing always a good one uh try i do realize you find honest conversations difficult however and then calmly

repeat your point uh with regard can you just repeat that another one wanting to say that uh how about you know a superior uh how do you deal with someone who just walks away well that's something to deal with are you saying to do that or are you saying that's happened to you? And so it carries on. Some brilliant suggestions. Thank you very much. It seems it's been an experience for quite a few of you. So to our original listener who wanted to remain anonymous,

thank you for your message. I'm sure you're in that situation and hopefully some of that advice can help. Now, while Italy gets used to a new prime minister, we've talked about this particular story a few times now, a first woman to hold that office, Giorgia Maloney. It's also 100 years since fascism took hold in the country. Both events have also been talked about together because of the roots of Miss Maloney's political party. One author thinks we have overlooked and don't know enough about a key woman at the heart of Italy's fascist movement,

Edda Mussolini, the daughter, favourite child and confidant of the Duce, Italy's dictator, Benito Mussolini. Acting as an envoy to both Germany and Britain, playing a part in steering Italy to join forces with Hitler, from her early 20s she was was, in effect, the first lady of Italy. Caroline Moorhead has written an account of her life called Edda Mussolini, the most dangerous woman in Europe. I asked her why she wants to shine a light on her. I wanted to write about what it was like for Italians to live under fascism,

because Italians instinctively are not fascist. And I wondered what accommodations they made. So I was looking for somebody who would act for me as a sort of narrative thread. And I chanced upon Edda. And then the more deeply I got into Edda, the more fascinating I found her. Why? She was tremendously complicated for Guy. When she was a little girl, she was known as the mad little horse.

She was wild. She was feral. She was clever. She was largely uneducated. And she was full of curiosity. She was on a quest. She wanted to do something. She wanted to be someone. And at the same time, she was very unsocial. She didn't like public appearances, quite shy in many ways. So there was this split between this rather dramatic, handsome, entitled woman and this rather nervous, retiring woman who really wanted to live on Capri and have a good time. And very close to her father. She was very close to her father. She was very close to her father. She was her father's, definitely her father's favourite child. And she was his confidante, increasingly more so because her mother, who was in many ways rather a wonderful figure,

was also very retiring. Rekele wouldn't have anything to do with fascist social life. So she lived in this very grand palace in Rome, where she kept her chickens and her rabbits. And Edda more and more took over the sort of social life of the fascist regime. A kind of first lady figure. She did indeed become, and you have to remember how young she was. She was 12 when Mussolini came to power. She was 24 when she became really his hostess. She was 25 and 26 when she went on foreign missions, unofficially, to sort of sound out foreign governments. You sound quite fond of a woman here who's the daughter of Mussolini. Bond is putting it too strongly. Did I ever come to like her? Not exactly. But I came to feel quite sorry for her. And I came to admire her. I admired her staunchness. And I really, really admired her huge fight to save her husband, Chano's life.

Because he became a big political figure. He did indeed. In 1936, he was made foreign minister. And while he was increasingly wary about going into the war on the German side, she was increasingly in favour of the Germans, largely because they had been so nice to her that when she went to Berlin, everybody made a great fuss of her. And she came back saying,

it's a wonderful country and we must get on to their side. Charno was more and more wary as foreign minister. When the moment came and there was a coup against Mussolini, Charno became one of the plotters. And I think it was at that moment, really, when they began to be in real danger, or he began to be in real danger,

that suddenly she loved him. And I think until then the marriage had been quite cool. They'd both had affairs. But at that moment she threw herself into saving him. And that's wanted away makes it a tragic story. Does she have any power? Because your book is called The Most Dangerous Woman in Europe. Was she dangerous?

I think she was dangerous. I mean, it's that funny line between influence and power. I think she was dangerous because both her husband and her father listened to her. I didn't make the quote up. It was used in a newspaper. And in 1938 and 1939, the papers were full of her power. I mean, the British papers as well as the American papers. Time magazine had a whole cover on her and a story about her. Was she also dangerous because she was living in a man's world and

there were no women with any power? So she sort of stood out. Dangerous is probably putting it too strongly, but she was certainly influential. And because of course, danger makes you think of danger to other people and decisions being made that, you know, made people be in fear of their lives and then possibly lose their lives. Do we have any, did you uncover any evidence about any of the things she advised her father to do or her husband that did lose people their lives or certainly threaten them? Certainly she was very keen on pressing her father to go into the war with the Germans. When the moment came and he was hesitating about what to do, she went to him and this is documented in diaries of Charno's. She went to him and said, you must stop fussing about.

You must get in on the side of the Germans. Italy needs to be a powerful country. We need to go in with the winning side. After all, at that point, many people thought the Germans were going to win. And did he listen to her? I don't know. I'm sure it helped. There were various of his leading fascists who wrote in their diaries.

She is the one person who Mussolini listens to. So there is no statement of Mussolini saying, because Edda told me to, I went in. But I'm sure that her words at that point just pushed him a little bit further. And what then happens to her is quite an extraordinary set of weeks, really, isn't it, with what happens to her husband and then her father? It's all very quick at the end. Ciano thought that he was going to be safe because he was married to Mussolini's daughter. There were 19 plotters against Mussolini, most of them very sensibly fled Italy.

Five, of which Ciano was one, were caught. And Ciano felt so sure that he was going to be all right that he went to Germany with Edda and the children, thinking that he could make it up with Mussolini, who was there at the time. Mussolini then had his own new government in northern Italy, and Ciano decided he would go back from Germany to Italy in order probably to volunteer for the Air Force. In fact, Hitler pressed Mussolini very, very hard to have him killed.

So when the trial happened, it was a sort of foregone conclusion. He was arrested back in Italy, put on trial in Verona with the other plotters who they'd caught, and sentenced to death. Now, Edda thought that she had made a deal with the Germans. Edda got hold of Ciano's diaries. The Germans wanted Charno's diaries because they thought they contained stuff about what had been going on in Germany, which would be embarrassing to them. She thought she'd made this deal that they would rescue him from the prison before the sentence was carried out. So she set off with the diaries for Switzerland. At the same time, he was taken out and executed. So one day, when she'd been in

Switzerland for two days, somebody appeared and told her that he was dead. Now, she then stayed in Switzerland. She never spoke to her father again, even though he made great overtures towards her. And when, 18 months later, Mussolini was himself killed. She was in despair. I mean, he was the person she really loved. She really loved her father best. So she lost her husband and her father in short succession. And her life after that was what? Well, I end the book in 1949.

She had a brief good moment. After the war, she was actually handed over by the Allies to the Italians, who sent her to a prison camp off Sicily called Lipari. And there she had a wonderful affair with the communist. How peculiar to think of her, fascist, him, communist. But it was a very happy time, and the letters of the time show a much softer Edda. After that, she went back to Rome, where she lived for another 40 years. Didn't marry again.

Quite lonely. Drank a lot. Travelled. But the very telling thing was that she never gave up on the fascism. I mean, to the end of her life. Really? She never said, I think we made a ghastly mistake. She went on saying, I think my father was a wonderful man.

And what he was doing for Italy was a very good thing. What is your take on the election of Giorgia Maloney as Prime Minister, the first woman to hold that position in Italy, but she heads Fratelli d'Italia, the Brothers of Italy party, with their links, of course, their roots towards that movement? Absolutely. I think what's interesting is that, of course, the timing is interesting. The 100th anniversary of the birth of fascism, Maloney comes in as prime minister. But the fact is, she isn't fascist. I mean, she's populist, she's nationalist, she's very anti-immigrant. She's a hardline right wing woman, but she's not actually a fascist. But what has been interesting over the

last few days, which is the celebration of the 100 years of fascism, at Predappio, which is the Mussolini hometown where Edda was born, there have been these huge marches and ceremonies and raising of the arm and the fascist salute. So there is this fascist narrative which lives on in Italy, but it isn't Maloney's narrative, really, though, of course, she does come out of the far right. It's just interesting to think about these women and, you know, the fact you said Edda stayed with it and never said she regretted it and where Italy is today. And the fact that, you know, things do happen like this in Germany, but not in the same way. The fact that there are these... You just couldn't do that in Germany. You couldn't do that in Germany

because it's totally against the law. Whereas in Italy, it's perfectly OK to go on celebrating Mussolini. There's nothing illegal about these marches. And the fascinating thing is that there is a huge museum in just outside Pridapio, which is a part shrine. It's got Rakeli's car, Rakeli being Mussolini's wife. And it's got a room given over to Edda, which has got her clothes in it. And all the houses redone up as it was when they lived in it, and it is a kind of shrine,

and people go there from all over the world. Many, many busloads arrive all the time to go round this house. I imagine when you write a book like this, you feel like you're living with the person, or you're certainly very close to them, and then you have different feelings maybe when it's over. How did you feel when your exploration of Mussolini's favourite child was done? For me, the process of writing a book is the wonderful research. And I'd had an absolutely glorious time. The Mussolini archives are wonderful, which are in Rome, and everybody's

diaries and papers and letters and so on. It was lovely. In a sort of funny way, once a book is over, it's sort of over. You know, you move on to another book and a whole other field of research, a whole lot of new people come your way. Did I like her in the end? There were things about her I admired and there were things I didn't like. Caroline Moorhead there. And she's written the book, Edda Mussolini, The Most Dangerous Woman in Europe. It's done for her, but not for you, if you're interested in that. You're extremely interested, just a couple more messages if I can on this, the idea of climate change damages today. I know it's a subject that many of you feel greatly passionate about, the climate, that is, and the environmental issues as COP27 kicks off in Egypt. Yes, we most definitely do need to pay for our appalling behaviour,

reads this message. We've continued to kick the can down the road, when for 50 years the opportunity to stop this happening has been wasted. The West has been an appalling role model. It needs to be administered responsibly, says Lynn. Good morning to you. Absolutely no to paying climate reparations for our forefathers' actions, reads this message.

Fossil fuel companies and states should be paying their share, says JR. And finally, reparations. I mean, not finally, because there are many, many messages, but let me just read this from Elaine. Reparations? No. People did not know the long-term effects in the late 18th and 19th and even early 20th centuries. Assistance, yes, but then the UK has been helping with disaster relief and UN famine relief.

We can help with renewables. And so it carries on. But to put you in the day, it's not just about climate. It's now November the 7th. It can't be too early for this. So let's just have a spot of some music, shall we? How are you feeling now? A small taste of Irving Berlin's famous White Christmas from the current cast of the latest stage production of the musical about to embark on a seven week UK tour and starring in that production, hailing from theatrical royalty, daughter of

Judy Garland of course, the actor and acclaimed in her own right and singer Lorna Luft recognised as an iconic stage star of stage and screen. She's playing the housekeeper Martha Watson in that much loved musical and not the first time Lorna who's just joined me in the studio. Why have you returned?

Oh, because I love this show. I do. I've been doing this show on and off for 16 years. Wow. And I really adore it. And I think right now, because of what we've gone through around the world, I think that we need White Christmas. We need hope.

We need Irving Berlin songs. We need a story that everyone is so familiar with. And because they love the movie. And because the stage show is spectacular. And it's just like whenever they call me, it's sort of like you're sitting there and you put that wonderful warm sweater that you've had in maybe your closet for the whole summer and all of a sudden it's winter and you put it on and you feel comfortable and it

makes you happy. You're going to need a warm sweater though. You're going on tour around the UK for seven weeks. Yeah. How did you find that? Well, I have to say, you know, I grew up half here. So I adore this country. And I'm married to a Brit. And, of course, so his family is here.

And I love this country. I love the people. I've got my best friends are here. So whenever I get a call, it's like I come back to a second home. And the character, if you aren't familiar with the housekeeper, who are we talking about here? In the movie, the wonderful Mary Wicks played the housekeeper. yes who are we talking about here what's like in the movie the wonderful mary wicks played the housekeeper and when they started doing the show they took the character and they made her this larger than life um person that used to be in show business, and she was a Broadway star. But she is now working at the inn in Vermont, and she's taking care of the general. But she does get the chance to sing and dance, and she's based on, I have based her on the Ethel Merman,

Martha Ray, Eve Arden characters that came out of those wonderful, wonderful movie musicals of the 1950s. So she's larger than life. I don't know why they keep hiring me. And she's really is the, well, she's the comic relief in the show. And it's something that I, when I first started doing the show, I fell in love with her. And I've wrapped my arms about around being Martha the Megaphone Watson. You've also said that you have a connection to this because of Rosemary Clooney, who was in the original.

Rosemary Clooney was sort of my second mom. And her family is like my family. And Rosie was an extraordinary woman. And she was so gifted and so talented. And White Christmas was really the pièce de résistance for her in her film career. And, of course, Vera Ellen was magnificent and Bing Crosby and Danny Kaye. And her brother, Nick Clooney, has a wonderful museum at their house in Kentucky. And it's called the White Christmas Museum.

And I've been to it, and it's all the costumes from the movie, and it's all the memorabilia from the movie of White Christmas. And Rosie was just the warmest and kind and sweet person that you would imagine her to be. And I am grateful to her family that, you know, because Rosie and my mom were very good friends. Well, and also when you talk about a second mum figure, I mean, you were so young when you lost your mom.

I was 16. Yeah. Very early, early time. And I know you've been, you know, with your working with your sister. Yeah. So you commemorate Liza Minnelli, of course, it would be 100. She would be 100 this year. My mom. Yeah. My mother turned 100. Her centennial was on June the 10th. And I got to do something, Emma, that was amazing. I got to light the Empire State Building in New York a rainbow.

And it was extraordinary to see this incredible, iconic building be lit in a rainbow for my mom's 100th birthday. Well, that must have been amazing. It was extraordinary. I should say you're very close to your sister, to Liza Melly, and your brother as well. What was that feeling like for you? Well, they were in California. I was the one in New York. It was just, it was so much love. And then they had a Broadway choir in the lobby of the Empire State Building who sang Over the Rainbow.

It was great. She would have loved it. So it was really lovely. Well, I was going to say, you also talked with your sister about being frustrated that, you know, she's sometimes described as a tragic figure. Oh, stop it. The idea. I know. And actually, she was incredibly joyous. Yeah, she was joyous. She was fun. She had an incredible sense of humor.

And that's what she gave to me. And I think that you have to have a sense of humor and you must find the funny in everything. You may not find it right been my lifeline. And I think that doing a show like White Christmas, when we stand on that stage at the end of the show and we sing that song, I watch an audience and they are so moved because it takes them back to when they first heard that song. Your mom sounds like she has some pretty good parties as well. Is it right you once woke up with Marilyn Monroe on the end of your bed? Yeah, my mom, you know, my mom had friends that were, of course, her peers.

But we didn't know who they were. Frank Sinatra was my godfather. And so we didn't know who they were. Frank Sinatra was my godfather. And so we didn't know who they were. They were just the adults, your mommy. my bed. And I just remember that when she had cracked it, she was like backlit. And I'd never seen hair that color. And I said to my mom, I said, Mama, was there someone? And she said, oh, yeah, Marilyn went up to check on you. And I said, oh, okay. All right. But I didn't know who it was. I didn't know that these people, they were just my mother. I didn't know my mother was an iconic legend. She was the lady in the kitchen. You know, she was my mom.

So when people always ask me, what was it like? Sometimes I think they get a little bit disappointed because I don't have anything to compare it to. No, but of course, seeing her on stage with your siblings, it must have been, hey, she was just making me some milk a minute ago. And now she's doing that. Yeah. When you did see her. Yeah. And now I'm a mom. And I'm a grandmother. I have four grandchildren. And they of course, they love White Christmas. They love this show because it's a family show. It's a show that you can bring everyone from eight to 80. Well, we will give the details in just a moment. But we had a listener get in touch who asked for advice very quickly, if I can,

what to do when a man tells you to calm down when you're in having a row with them. Have you ever been in that situation where a man's told you to calm down? Any advice you could give? Any lines you would say? Wow. You know, I have to say that that can be, you can take that either way. You can take it as he's really caring about you to calm down, or you can take that as don't insult my intelligence. And it really depends on your relationship

and who tells you to do it. And so I have, yeah, my husband has told me at some times you must calm down, but it really depends on the situation. And I think that you have to take that as either they care enough about you that they want you to go that way.

Yeah, I don't think this was the caring one. Or you can take it as don't tell me to calm down. And you can make you even go crazier. I think it has had that effect for some of our listeners this morning. It's lovely to talk to you. Thank you for taking us through

some of your memories and also what this particular show means to you. Lor you for taking us through some of your memories and also what this particular show means to you. Lorna Luft there. You can see Lorna in White Christmas on tour, starting in Cornwall, then in Nottingham,

Sunderland and Liverpool. Thank you for being with us. Thank you so much and have a great holiday. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.