Woman's Hour - Lorraine Kelly, Actor and boxer Kali Reis, Presenter Gemma Cairney

Episode Date: February 16, 2024

Lorraine Kelly CBE has been described as the queen of morning television. She joined TV-am as their Scottish correspondent in 1984 and, save for a brief maternity leave 30 years ago, has barely left the schedules since - for the last 14 as host of ITV’s Lorraine. Now after a lifetime of wanting to, she has written her first novel, The Island Swimmer, a story of family secrets, island communities and overcoming fear. Lorraine joins Anita Rani to discuss her novel, her life and her 40-year career.The deaths of three women in one week, all allegedly murdered by their husbands, has caused outrage in Somalia and sparked days of protests over the country’s femicide rates. Police have named the suspects in all three killings, which took place in the first week of February, as the dead women’s husbands. Two of the victims were pregnant. The BBC's Fardowsa Hanshi, a video journalist with the Somali Service explains what's going on.Kali Reis is the breakout star of True Detective: Night Country. As the series nears its finale on Sky Atlantic on Monday, Kali joins Anita in the Woman’s Hour studio to talk about going from a career in boxing to acting with Jodie Foster. She is also an indigenous rights activist, who has Native American and African heritage, and was the first indigenous woman fighter to become a World Champion.Last month, Woman's Hour discussed a shocking report which warned of endemic misogyny and discrimination in the music industry. MPs from the Women and Equalities Committee found that sexual harassment and abuse is common. That report has resonated with many – and not just in the music industry. Award-winning broadcaster Gemma Cairney has written a piece in The Guardian about her experience, saying she’d battled racism and misogyny in creative industries for years. Gemma tells us about the reaction to her piece. Professor of Media, Culture and Communications at Brunel University Sarita Malik will explain why Gemma’s experience is so widespread in broadcasting.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty Starkey Studio Manager: Neva Missirian

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. We have a packed show with a very powerful line-up of women for me to speak to, but then that comes with the Woman's Hour territory. In fact, one of them is sitting opposite me right now. I'm not actually going to introduce you. I think if I just ask you a question and you speak,

people will know who you are. How are you? How's your morning been? It's been fantastic. Thank you. And it's so lovely to be here. It's wonderful to have you here too, Lorraine Kelly. In front of me, we'll be talking to her in just a moment. Also on the programme, award-winning broadcaster Gemma Kearney has spoken out about the racism

and misogyny she's faced during her career she made a decision, a very bold decision that it was time to call it out and I'll be speaking to Gemma about her experience a little bit later but this morning I'd also like to hear from you about when you decided enough was enough and it was your time

to speak out. When have you taken action, drawn a line in the sand, stood up for something that you felt was holding you back? Please get in touch and share your moment with me, whether it was something at work or something in your personal life. It takes a lot to find the courage to call something out and take a stand. Tell me what you did and how it played out for you. Get in touch in the usual way. You can text me on 84844. You can email me by going to our website. You can also WhatsApp me

or leave me a voice note. The number is 03700 100 444. And if you'd like to get in touch with us via social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. Also, how many of you are watching the new series

of True Detective? It is so good. Well, the breakout star and world champion fighter turned incredible actor Kayleigh Rees will be on the programme. I binge watched only two episodes last night because I had to get to bed because I was here in the morning. So good. Also, Jodie Foster, obviously brilliant in it. Lots coming up on the programme. And of course, your thoughts and opinions welcome

on absolutely anything you hear on the programme. That text number once again, 84844. But to my first guest, Lorraine Kelly, CBE, has been described as the queen of morning TV. She is the queen of morning TV. She joined TVAM as their Scottish correspondent in 1984 and save for a brief maternity leave 30 years ago, has barely left the schedule since for the last 14 years as the host of ITV's Lorraine. Now, after a lifetime of wanting to she has finally written her first novel The Island Swimmer a story of family secrets

island communities and overcoming fear. Lorraine joins me in the studio to discuss the novel, your life, your career. 40 years Lorraine. I know it's crazy isn't it 40 is it crazy how does it feel do you know it's strange um if you'd said to me you know a way back when i first joined and because i joined tvm as scottish correspondent the best job in the world and i loved it and i never had any sort of thoughts about you know coming south and sitting on a pink sofa it really wasn't it just was never i never thought about it at all um and only got asked to do some really for holidays after Lockerbie. And then I only brought enough knickers for a week. And then sort of like, you know, 40 years later, here I am.

So, yeah, it's been amazing. I love it. I'm so lucky to be doing a job that I love with a great team. And every day is different. It's like this. Every day is different. You talk to so many different people and it's been incredible. But none more different than what you're going through right now because after a broadcasting career of 40 years,

you've written a book, a novel, or something you've always wanted to do? Always. I mean, I was really lucky. You know, we lived in the east end of Glasgow and my mum and dad might not have had very much money, but they always made sure books were very much a part of our life.

The library, to be honest. We went to the library in Bridgeton in Glasgow and I virtually lived there. I mean, it was the world, wasn't it? You walked in the doors and there was the world was yours. And my mum taught me to read and write before I went to primary school. So I was a bit of a thwart in that sense. But always, always had books, always reading,

always talking about books. So it was very much sort of ingrained in me but I never thought I would get the opportunity to do it or indeed the time and I just basically I just basically was a hermit yes and I didn't go out well let's talk about the book before we talk about the process yes um the story because actually writing a wanting to write a book is one thing, but actually thinking of knowing what you want to write about. Was the story always there? Tell us a bit about it. Kind of. It's always going to be set in Orkney because I love Orkney. Why Orkney? I went there as a reporter back in 84 and I go back every single year because I just love it.

There are some places that just, they pull you back. You know that way you go somewhere and you think, oh, I'd quite like to go back there one day. It's like, I need to go back. And I still haven't seen everything that's going on. So Orkney is very much a character almost in the story. But it's really about a young girl who you find out why she has to leave Orkney. It's quite traumatic and very difficult and very deep. And she has to leave. She tries to rebuild her life in London, but she doesn't feel she's worth anything. You know, she's got that sense of, I don't deserve happiness. I don't deserve a good relationship. And then she has to go back to Orkney 20 years later

when her father gets really ill. And it's trying to rebuild bridges. It's trying to come to terms with tragedy, misunderstandings. There's a very toxic relationship with her sister. And at the end of the book some things are resolved but not everything it's not tied up in a little bow

some of these relationships never get resolved which is why I'm not done with these characters I was so sad to say bye-bye to them Anita because they live in your head they do and they're real you know I can see them I can absolutely see them and it's so interesting

because a lot of writers have said to me, Marion Keys in particular, has said to me, you don't know where your characters are going to take you. And I used to say, how can that possibly be? You're writing it. But I get it. I understand it now. I got very excited when I saw that Marion Keys had commented on the book because I thought, oh, my God, Marion Keys. I mean, that's the ultimate stamp of approval. That's it, really. I mean, that's it now. That's just wonderful. But so far, I mean, it's only been out for a couple of days, officially, but so far the reviews have been so lovely. I just want people to dive into it and to enjoy, you know, like when I read a Maeve Binshey book. I'm right there in the world that she's created.

And your characters will draw people in and you get to feel a sense of them straight away and it's a really diverse cast as well. Very much so. Very, very much so. And I think the device of the fact that there is a wild water swimming group or as Freya, who's my favourite. Freya's a wise

woman. She's in her late 70s and she's kind of at the heart of the story in many ways. Trans woman. Yes, but it's kind of like, you know, when she's 15 she is Freya. She was Magnus, a wee boy living in a small island. And everybody just accepts, oh there's Magnus

it's fine, you know, that's what he is. And then he becomes Freya and some people get it a wee bit wrong. But what I really wanted to do was to show that we're all different, but essentially we're all the same. And Freya is just a woman. She is wonderful.

She can be a bit interfering at times. Sometimes she takes it too far. But a lot of it is based on my grandmother. My grandmother was one of these, oh, she was an incredible woman. What was her name? Margaret. She was called Peggy. And she used to, like like she always said to me

from when I was tiny, she would say don't save anything till best so my gran, she would festoon herself in scarves and massive, you know, colourful jewellery, she'd spray herself with tweed perfume, every time I smell tweed perfume I'm back with my gran, but she would do

that Anita to take the bins out I mean she just was somebody who said, seize the day. And that thing of how often... I love that she was such a Scot that she had to spray herself in tweed. Oh, yeah, exactly. She sprayed herself with the perfume. But she was amazing. And I love that attitude of, you know, don't keep things for a bit.

We all do, don't we? We get a really beautiful dress and we think, oh think oh well I can't wear that or those shoes and we sit there in the cupboard gathering dust it's crazy no I made a change I've decided that it's when if not now when exactly just exactly don't save everything anything's best but the the how many people have asked you specifically about talking about Freya and the surprise that you've put a trans character in there yeah because I wanted people because in the book you get to know her first and then you get her background a little bit. I don't go into it in huge great detail

because, you know, she's just Freya and she even says herself, you know, I just want to be accepted for who I am. That's all. And I think that was the message that I really wanted to get across was the fact that, yeah, we're all just trying to go on with our lives

and everybody's different in that sense, but everybody's the same. We've got an awful lot more in common when we actually start talking to each other than we have that separates us

and she is very much part of the whole community all of the stories I didn't really realise that at the time but when I look at it now all of the stories go back to Freya

she's connected to every single person she is the person like she's the one who has the selkies they're called, the swimming group. A selkie is like a mythical creature,

half woman, half seal. And Evie is very frightened of the water. You find out why and you can understand why. And it's all about, and it's all about as well, women supporting other women and holding them up,

whether they're holding them up physically in the water or just holding us all up emotionally. It's about that too. Yeah, and as you say, swimming, cold water up physically in the water or just holding us all up emotionally it's about that too and as you say swimming, cold water swimming features in the book and it's something that you do yourself on your Instagram? Honestly, very foolishly Anita

the first time I ever did it, Antarctica I do not recommend this I think this was quite silly but I did go in and because we were doing this fantastic trip to Antarctica where we're following in the footsteps of Ernest Shackleton, who's my absolute hero beyond, you know, I just love him. So that for me was like I was like a child. I was like a toddler.

And when they stopped at Deception Island, they said, look, if you want to, you can go in. And I put my swimming costume on ready. But I took all my clothes off, you know, really fast and left them on the beach and ran in. I kept my hat on and my gloves, Ran in, very quickly ran out again. Yeah. And I could actually see, I couldn't feel anything at all. So I couldn't get my clothes back on because we're all inside out. And I was trying, I couldn't feel anything.

So I had to sort of go back to the wee boat. And I could see the ice forming on the hairs of my arms. Oh no. But do you know what? I have never felt more alive in my life. Would you do it again? Are you doing it again? I do it again.

I do it in Orkney. I've been in the, oh the water up there is beautiful. I did in the Thames but the Thames is a sort of greeny brown and I don't even want to think about what's in the Thames so I don't do that anymore. I do the crystal clear waters of Orkney or up in the Highlands. And is this

about making yourself feel healthy and vibrant? It is. Is this a new journey that you're on about health? Well, not so much. It's just you just feel more alive. And it's really good for your mental health as well. You know, you actually do feel better. And the bonding with this is usually women,

but I know men have groups as well and there's mixed groups. But you have the most profound conversations. Yeah. When you're out of the water and you're sitting, you know, getting dried off and you're having a coffee. If you want to put a little bit of whiskey in your coffee, that's quite good. And having a big cake because, you know, you must. And you really, I don't know, it's like breaks down barriers. And you're kind of vulnerable, aren't you?

Because you've just done something so extreme together. Exactly. But you're all in it together. It's that sense of being together. And I think, you know, we've lost that somehow a little bit. So it's good to get that back. I want to ask you about changing. I mean, I know you haven't changed your career. You've just added another string to your bow because you've got so much time, obviously. Oh, yeah, loads. How did you find the time to do this? I was quite selfish and my husband was great. She can't do things like this on your own nobody can do anything on your own, you can't do this on your own

you know you obviously have a great team round about you but my husband picked up a lot of the slack and when I was on it, when I was writing I was really, really writing because for me it's a full time job writing an novel that's why I waited for so long but I sort of feel at this stage you know there's a lot of big milestones this

year, I'm going to be 65, my daughter's going to be 30, 40 years in Breakfast Telly, it just felt like the right time and also and I'm going there's a lot of big milestones this year I'm going to be 65 my daughter's going to be 30 40 years in Breakfast Telly it just felt like the right time and also and I'm sure you're the same you sort of it's not based the book isn't

the characters aren't based on anyone in particular there's a little bit of my grandmother and Freya but it's about the fact that you've been talking to people for so long people have trusted you

with their stories and you can pick up things and just by listening you know you can pick up lots of different traits of people and you can put it in the just by listening you can pick up lots of different traits of people and you can put it in the story

and there's a lot of fun in there as well there's a lot of laughs and a really good sense of humour too and I wanted to get the light in the shade too I think you said

a word there trust and my next question was going to be how have you managed to stay at the top for 40 years but I think

just sitting here and you have interviewed me so it's such a brilliant privilege in my life to be able to be interviewing Lorraine Kelly. I think, Pete, we trust you. I hope so. I hope so. And that really is down to just being there every day. You know, it's about that.

And also, I do try, I always think, and I always say to anyone who says, you know, I'd love to do this job or I would like to be a journalist or whatever. You really have got to do your homework. That's first of all, obviously, you've got to do that. But you've got to listen. And it's never about you. And give people the opportunity to talk.

I mean, sometimes that's quite hard because I've only got a certain amount of time to talk to someone. But it's really important that you do the work. That's all I would say, do the work. That's why when I was doing the book,'s all i would say do the work that's why when i was doing the book i actually enjoyed the editing process because i do that every day it's like you i get tons and tons of information about a guest and then you've got to distill it into and in your head have two or three bullet points and then just go where the conversation takes you but now that you're 40 years in if when you sit down i don't know if you have you probably

have and reflected yeah because you know you've I don't know if you have, you probably have, and reflected. Because, you know, your parents, you know, you come from a very working class background in Glasgow. And here you are, the queen of daytime TV. The Dowager Duchess. 40 years. I mean, it's still a great title. 40 years in. I know. It's astonishing, isn't it? Well, where did that come from? Where did your confidence come from? Oh, I don't even know if I've got confidence.

I've still got a wee bit of that working class cringe where you think, you know, somebody, if you're somewhere posh, somebody's going to tap you on the shoulder and say, I'm terribly sorry you'll have to leave. I don't know. I think from my family. I mean, I think from my mother.

I'm so glad that my mum likes the book because my mum will tell me in the morning, she'll say, what was that? You know, like, what were you wearing? Or what was your hair like? Or more to the point, she'll say, why did you not ask this question? She's really good and was that you know like what were you wearing or what was your hair like or why more to the point she'll say why did you not ask this question she's really good and very you know and I don't I've never kind of I don't know what a celebrity lifestyle is Anita I've got no idea but it is well you were on Graham Norton yesterday well that was come on that is pretty

celebrity can you tell us about the only person on that sofa that I had no idea you know who didn't know who I was I mean you know I had no idea who was it, who didn't know who I was. I mean, you know, I had no idea who I was. It was just magical and funny. Now, I don't think I could have done that even 10 years ago. Honestly. Why? Beside Olivia Colman and Jodie Foster. I mean, come on. It's still that thing of, you can't quite believe

you're there. I mean, I do remember interviewing Buzz Aldrin, the second man in the moon, and that was for me the ultimate interview. I mean, it was a terrible interview because I was fangirling all over him. More than George Clooney? You were fangirling? Much more than George Clooney. And even now, I look up at the moon. Because my dad bought me a telescope when I was five

and we watched the moon landings together. And I look at the moon and think, I've actually spoken to a person whose feet, whose body, who was on the moon. How amazing is that? Amazing. I know, and I love that you have mentioned him virtually spoken to a person whose feet, whose body, who was on the moon. How amazing is that? Amazing. I know. And I love that you have mentioned him because I know you're a big Trekkie as well, aren't you? I do. Well, original Star Trek.

Yeah, original. The spin-offs were fine, you know, as it goes. But original Trek, I watched that as a kid. And I loved that because way before, for goodness sake, you know what the state of America was like in the 60s. This was even before the moon landings. And we had an amazing black woman. Absolutely. In the crew.

We had diversity. The first mixed race kiss ever on TV. With Captain Kirk and Lieutenant Nahuru. I remember it well. Mr Spock was my first crush. I still do love Mr Spock. Me too. Amazing.

Yes, half Vulcan, half human. I mean, we could go on. We could do a whole show on Star Trek. Lorraine Kelly could go on. We could do a podcast about Star Trek. Lorraine Kelly, Anita Rani. Or just talking about Star Trek. But you mentioned the diversity of cast there. And we're going to be talking to Gemma Kearney, who's spoken out about what she's experienced in this industry.

I can't not ask you about how you've seen things change as well as a woman in this industry and things that you might have experienced. It has changed a lot. But I was very lucky, Anita, because when I was the correspondent for Scotland for TVAM, I'd just come from the BBC in Scotland where they told me I'd never make it in broadcasting because of my accent. But that was the best thing that they could have done. Because back then, nobody spoke like me, nobody spoke like Anton Deck.

It just wasn't like that back in the early 80s. But it spurred me on to get a job at TVAM. And of course, I was the only person. So when things would come in, head of politics, me, head of sport, oh, that's me, head of news, oh, that'll be me then. Isn't that confidence? It was amazing. Well, it was daunting, but it was fantastic.

So we covered all the big news stories. But I also covered sport. And back then, they didn't really have women on telly. There was a couple of trailblazing women writers on football, but not, you know, but not on TV. And it meant you were underestimated. And as a woman, sometimes people do underestimate you. But it meant that I got great interviews because their guard was down. You know, all these managers and players, they didn't really expect, you know, because then, gosh, I was only in my late 20s.

They didn't really expect that. And actually, I don't mind being underestimated. I'm very happy with that. It's fine. Do you think there is, do you think the culture is the same now in that there is space for more Lorraine Kellys to come through? No, I don't. And it worries me greatly because, you know, I was from like the Gorbals, Bridgeton.

My husband joined the BBC from Dundee. He was an electrician in Dundee and he was a teenager and he came down to London to work for the Beeb. He used to press the button that made the tar disc up and down. You know the thing in the middle of the tar disc? I mean, come on. How impressive is that? That's very impressive. I know. But he came down and the BBC put him up in hostels in Notting Hill. I mean, those now are probably

flats worth, God knows, 10 million, not worth, costing 10 million quid or something. But he put them up there so the young people, both in front and behind the camera, were able to have the opportunity to come to London. And I was helped with rent when I was in London. TVIM helped me.

Now it is purely a financial thing. So the voices of a lot of working class men and women, you know, whether it's Glasgow, Newcastle, Birmingham, or whatever, we're not hearing them because they can't afford to live here and they can't afford to make that breakthrough. So you're going to have a situation where you don't hear their voices. And I find that really sad. And actually, it really annoys me as well, because we should have more opportunity, not less. And I honestly don't think if me now, you know, back then, way back in the

80s, I don't know that I would have had but would have been able to do that job I wouldn't have been I wouldn't have been able to afford it to live here or I wouldn't have got the opportunity well it's wonderful that you are there and that you are now embarking on this new writing career uh did you enjoy the process will there be more loved it loved it and like I said I've got unfinished business with all of these characters so book two there are there are some yeah I can't say bye-bye to them Anita I can't I've got unfinished business with all of these characters. So book two, there are some, yeah, I can't say bye bye to them, Anita. I can't. Don't.

I can't let them go. We don't want you to. I know. So I'm going to, already I'm working on the second one. But does that mean you'll be taking more time away from Lorraine? No, no, not really. Because you know there's this. I know.

But the amount of space that I occupy in people's heads is quite bizarre. There is a satire account set up on X. It's hilarious. Tracking your appearances on the show. I know. But the amount of space that I occupy in people's heads is quite bizarre. There is a satire account set up on X tracking your appearances on the show. It's got 10,000 followers. It's fine. I don't mind. I don't care. I probably would have cared before, but I really don't now. It's absolutely fine.

To be honest, I am having, you should never comment on things like that if you don't know what's going on in people's lives. But I am having to take quite a few Fridays off because my mum's really not well. Yeah. lives but I am having to take quite a few Fridays off because my mum's really not well yeah so um I can go home now and spend some more time with her because you know and help her a bit more than I than I've been able to um so that's happening just now but that that'll change um but yeah I've been doing five days a week for you know 40 years so I'm just taking a wee bit of time off and obviously this is half term which is why I'm able to talk to you which is fantastic. Well we thoroughly enjoyed having you on Lorraine Kelly thank you so much

Thank you so much and good luck with the Island Swimmer 84844 is the number to text so we've had someone come in saying first time I saw Lorraine on TV AM dark cold rainy road roadside looking like a drowned rat not sure about that I did. I said well done for

sticking it out. I love it. For anyone who didn't know, Lorraine's beloved Bridgeton Library in Glasgow is now the home of the amazing Glasgow Women's Library, preserving women's writing and history for future generations. Oh, I've got to go back. There you go.

Oh, I'm definitely going back there. Wonderful woman. Wonderful. That's great news. Thank you, Lorraine. Lots of you getting in touch about variety of things that we're talking about on the program this morning and thank you for the conversation about what we've done to stand up for ourselves it's motivating me to reply to a pretty awful

letter i received from someone in a supposedly therapeutic role rejecting my request for more nhs therapy because i've missed some in the past due to long covid i am motivated now to reply i will be talking to j Gemma Kearney shortly. But first, the deaths of three women in one week, all allegedly murdered by their husbands, has caused outrage in Somalia and sparked days of protests over the country's femicide rates.

Police have named the suspects in all three killings, which took part in the first week of February, as the dead women's husbands. Two of the victims were pregnant. Earlier, I was joined by the BBC's Ferdosa Hanshi, a video journalist with the Somali service. She gave me more details about what happened. In the past few weeks, there has been a lot of horrifying incidents

that have been happening in Somalia. According to the reports, almost three women have been killed by their husbands. One incident was a pregnant woman and an airport worker died from the injuries after her husband set her on fire. It sparked an outrage and demand for justice from the victim's family and the community. Incidents like this have been happening for the recent weeks. It's not only women who have been killed, it's also men who have been killed by their wives. The incidents of the three women have sparked activists

and human rights activists are now coming together to protest against this instance, not to happen again. So tell me more about the protests. What's been happening? What's been taking place? Most of the community who were outraged by this incident and this domestic violence and this femicide have been going to the streets and they were demanding justice from government.

And how unusual is that for women to take to the streets and protest in Somalia? It's not that that happens always. But this incident of Lul, the woman who was pregnant and who was panned down, has forced the woman to demand justice for this woman. And they were demanding justice and they were saying, we want this genocide should not be tolerated. And we want justice for this woman to happen.

So it's not something that happens always, but I think it's something that's new, that women now are demanding justice and they're coming to the streets and want to fight for the rights for other women. Because the case was just so shocking and it sent shockwaves through society. Fadosa, can you give us a bit more of an overview into the sort of the situation for women in Somalia, the lives that they live?

You know, if this is one of the first times that a case like this has created so much outrage that they've come to the streets. What's the sort of day to day situation like for women in Somalia? Women in Somalia have been going through a lot of process, and I feel like now they are in a position where a lot of women are now women in parliament, in the ministries, but it's not something normal where Somali women can be vocal and can talk about their issues openly. So it happens now in a time where women are going through femicide. And we are seeing this change on that because now women are standing for other women and they can openly in social media and also in the streets to demand justice.

It's not something easy, but now even in parliament, there's a lot of presentation and there is vocal women who are now demanding justice. And I think they shift on this now compared to where Somali women were before. That was the BBC's Ferdosa Hanshi there. Lots of you getting in touch with various things that you're hearing on the programme this morning. I'm asking you if there's ever been a moment where you've stood up for something in your life.

Serena says, I took action last month by starting a petition to reform the UK honours list. Was fed up of hearing of too many people being given awards which didn't chime with what the honours list is supposed to be about. Celebrating ordinary people who do extraordinary things to help make the world better. And another email here,

I called it out in the 80s as one of the few black front of camera reporters newsreaders I was told that I was taken on because I was black told to stop being bringing black stories whatever that means to the morning meetings news conference being black and in the media spotlight as I was in the 80s and 90s pre the explosion of social media it was possibly a more frightening and lonely place to be. I had to tackle my experiences single-handedly and privately. People I approached to call out the racism in the industry were afraid to come out publicly for fear of the consequences for them.

It was mentally and physically exhausting. We'll be talking a little bit more about that shortly. But first, to my next guest. Kayleigh Rees is the breakout star of the TV drama series True Detective Night Country. Acting opposite Jodie Foster. It's so good. I'm so excited to be talking to Kaylee.

Their characters, both policewomen, have a fraught relationship. Here's a taster. We can work together and figure out any. No. I'm not working with you again ever. You think I want to work with you? I do, actually. Yeah.

Take a look in the mirror, Liz. No one can stand you except for that poor kid Pryor. But you'll be breaking his heart real soon. Get out of my scene. Go on. I mean, it's just spine-tingling. The final episode of the series,

which is set in Alaska, airs on Monday. And anyone who's watched it may be surprised to learn that Kayleigh switched careers from professional boxing to acting only recently. Kayleigh is also an indigenous rights activist of Native American and African heritage and was the first indigenous woman fighter to become a world champion. I am delighted to welcome you, Kayleigh, to the Woman's Hour studio. Thank you. Have we made you a cup of tea? No, I'm good, though. You're good.

All right. And this is only your third acting role. This is only my third acting role, not my last. I'm only my third. I mean, definitely not your last. We know that because you're electric. But may I just ask,

because we played a clip there between you and Jodie Foster, and I know you're a world champion fighter. But what was it like being put in the ring with acting royalty, Jodie? It's you and it's Jodie. And there you are. Go for it. I mean, at first it was terrifying, but all good things or things that have a good result usually terrify you first. And I knew it was going to be an amazing experience. I mean, I was just such a fan it was going to be an amazing experience I

mean I was just such a fan of hers and to be able to work with such a legend it's like working with any legend in boxing that I've dreamed of ever meeting meeting and having a chance to learn from somebody like that in my very like kind of really early on in my career it was a dream come true and I learned so much I went into this job as you know learning and having co-worker but I left with a friend like she's such as my calling my homie that's my homie love that's amazing good homie to have how do you even prepare for that though ah life honestly it's crazy because I get asked the question a lot are there any similarities from boxing to acting and actually I feel like I've been training for this acting my entire almost 16 years professional um boxing so it was more or less learning exactly who what the story was what the character was and kind of just taking the authentic knowledge of

who this character what this story is really the core values of what we're trying to portray in this story and also just really getting the perspective of the Inupiaq people and the Inupiaq background because I'm indigenous. I'm Cape Verdean Wampanoag, but I'm not from there. So it was really important for me to understand the experiences. Tell me some stories. I want to know how they wanted to be represented on screen. I mean, we know the True Detective franchise. The first one series started started Woody Harrelson and Matthew McConaughey

which was brilliant I'm a fan but watching this with two female leads um from the female perspective it was an absolute game changer and you also had a female showrunner showrunner yes uh that's Issa Lopez yes I mean it was the contrast between the two. I mean, it's the obvious contrast with two male leads being the first season and amazing first season. And you have the two female leads. I mean, and then we can go even deeper saying the first season was bright, sweaty, hot. And now you have the Alaskan dark cold. But Issa being the showrunner, writing an entire series under this entity, massive machine of True Detective,

English not being her first language and coming up with this amazing entity, massive machine of True Detective, English not being her first language. And coming up, this is an amazing story that fits under the True Detective umbrella. And you have these two female leads that actually work in a real male-dominated profession. And you get to see that perspective. I think as females, though, it's really interesting to see how these detectives, these people can relate to the crimes and the victims. we see that with your opening scene yes because your character navarro uh has come to well possibly arrest a woman for assault but then ends up arresting the man instead that she hit yes i mean it was it's kind of a perfect opening to oh okay i know exactly

what what this woman is and especially it speaks volumes to the reality of situations like that. How tough was it? You mentioned filming there in Alaska and it's very dark. How tough was that experience filming there? Because you were there for seven months. Yeah, we actually filmed in Iceland. Because filming in Alaska, I mean, for what we needed and the locations that we would need to go to, it's so remote.

And it's just people from Alaska, they are so resilient and survivors because they are built different for that type of an environment. So we filmed in Iceland. Well, we actually had a chance to bring a lot of Alaskans and Greenlandic native peoples to Iceland to create this great world, this innis world. So the weather conditions, it was cold. It was definitely cold. It was actually one of the coldest winters they've had in almost like 100 years of course um but it was you know we had this family-oriented community type of vibe on set and iceland's beautiful i mean it was just the people the food and um the darkness definitely is the same way it would be in alaska uh but we get to look up and look at northern lights you know i mean well there's something quite magical

about iceland i would say and there's something quite mystical uh running through the storyline of true detective as well did it did the scenery did the setting add to the script and the experience of it all absolutely and also to to touch back on the indigenous aspect of the story i mean the creation stories that we have as indigenous peoples anywhere you go anyway are fascinating and then to learn about theirs are was so interesting and isa had a way to wrap that right around into the the actual story of of true detective night country and but the atmosphere in iceland it's very energy energetically charged they even have their own folklore and their stories and we were there on the holidays and they were explaining all their different beliefs and elves and the fairies.

So it definitely added to that aspect being in Iceland and have it just be the exact same thing that we were going for. Now, your character Navarra is obsessed with the cold case of a midwife and activist who is brutally murdered. But there are no suspects. And this is a storyline with a lot of resonance for you as someone who's been involved in campaigning around missing and murdered indigenous women? Absolutely. I mean, I did my best to just bring awareness to different issues and the indigenous communities such as missing and murdered indigenous women and people. I have a platform, I have a voice and you know, I was always raised to dance for those who can't dance, fight for those who can't and just be a voice for the voiceless. So I'm bringing awareness because it's such an issue that does not get the type of attention. I mean, MMIW, the hashtag, is fairly new, but it's just to bring the awareness to stop the violence,

to stop our missing women from going missing. So the fact that we were able to highlight this very real issue in this very well-written story, it just added to what Issa was doing in her previous work anyway. She highlights missing or murdered women in Mexico, in Mexico City, because she's, you know, she's from there and that's something that happens all the time. So anytime I can bring awareness to it,

I will take the chance. I just wonder, you know, maybe this is a way of bringing more awareness to a wider audience. Yes, exactly. It's just a different audience. Like with boxing, people normally wouldn't hear about it. It's not a mainstream media. So somebody who would never necessarily look for a type of political or issues like this are going to get a taste of what it really is and then further have the, you know, want to know really what's going on because it happens next door. It happens a lot often and people realize and it's not something that happened. It happens. You know, that's the difference. And you really do explore the sort of intersectionality of race within the programme

because your character does say if she was white, her murder would have been solved. Absolutely, and that's another reality. I mean, I've sat down with many survivors, many victims' families that have said they were in fear of having their loved ones not looked for, so they reported them as white or not indigenous or native because it gets really hairy with jurisdiction and what what policing and it just gets really really unfortunately kind of it ends

up being a lot of cold cases because they don't know where to put it all they just don't care. Now there's a large cast of Native American women in the show what was that like to be part of it was like being part of a family I felt like I walked on set um and there was just a bunch of my aunties there I mean all you hear is laughing love energy um just love to talk and it was just amazing to see them walk on set and feel at home and to see there wasn't just one indigenous character. They were in every part of the story, whether it was just at the laundromat, in the streets, in the corner store as Navarro. It was just amazing to be able to see ourselves in every part of this.

I'm just wondering about you changing career from boxing to acting. And I mean, it's obvious why you are so successful, because you are brilliant on screen. Thank you so much. And you have a real physical presence as well. And that you can see your strength and power. So how did you get into boxing? I was really sporty as a kid, but nobody in my family boxed. It wasn't like it was passed down. I just really was

attracted to the solo aspect of fighting um it's one of those things is self-accountability and going through some things as a kid not having that outlet or maybe kind of being confused about a lot of things my race being one of my race being one of them I mean being from two different backgrounds being Wampanoag and Cape Verdean or Afro-Indigenous or Black and Native I wasn wasn't Black enough for the Black kids or Native enough for outside of my territory. And that's one thing that we face in North America and America is that people think there's one dimensional look of an Indigenous person and you're Native American, so you look like this. Well, Indigenous, the word Indigenous means you are native to the actual land in the area of your ancestors. So that was really confusing to me, being the youngest of five kids, my parents getting divorced.

I was just like, where do I fit? Where do I fit? Sports were great, but I just really even struggled with my sexuality. I mean, the term two-spirit was kind of a newer term, and I didn't know it as a kid, but I learned in my teens, and I identified myself. Explain. So two-spirit is basically what indigenous people use in their own way. To me it means I'm completely comfortable in walking in my masculine energy 100%.

And I'm also completely comfortable walking in my feminine energy 100%. I'm not attracted to a sex or a gender. I'm attracted to people's souls. And it just so happens that I was more comfortable being with women, being with females. But then I would just maybe have a date with a guy. It wasn't something that I'm supposed to be this, but also coming from a household where my mother is indigenous, she was also a Christian. So I just was very confused as a child and I didn't know where to fit in. I didn't know where my place was. So the individual responsibility you have to have as a fighter, if you don't do something, you have nobody else to blame but yourself.

So I just got attracted to it. And I wasn't like this talented super world champion coming out. I got pretty beat up my first fight, and it was one of those things where I stopped, and it was like either this isn't for me or how do I make that not happen again? And I took that how do I make that not happen again. So, I mean, you're saying that you weren't that talented. I don't believe it. You don't become world champion by being not that talented. So what is that? Just dedication? That's hard. There's something that you can't teach. I mean, I come from a long line of warriors and my ancestors, and it's something that you can't teach. Like I, I welcome failure. Like I want to know what I did

wrong so I can fix that. I wanted somebody to tell me that I do everything right but it's just a relentless resilience that is just in my veins and I just you can't teach heart you can't teach heart now and this would you encourage other women to get into boxing absolutely and even not just it's not just punching somebody in the face it's the discipline of it it's the seeing the progress it's feeling your strength you feel like you can defend yourself if you need to it's it, you know, it's a physical sport. Obviously, you feel you're getting your body moving, but I absolutely would encourage everybody, especially women, to get into boxing.

I've done it myself and I can vouch for it. It's a great stress reliever. I was going to say it's a really good stress reliever too. You were talking, I'm really interested in what you were saying about your masculine energy and your feminine energy and encompassing it both because we see it on screen. Yes. We see you when you've got your uniform on, you know, arresting men and being all energy and encompassing it both because we see it on screen. Yes. We see you when you've got your uniform on,

you know, arresting men and being all powerful and angry. You have rage in you. Yes. And then we see you, this real softer side of you as well. And I just thought it was really effortlessly done. Yes. We were seeing the essence of you. Yeah.

Honestly, I brought, you know, myself and Navarro are different in a lot of ways, but there was a lot of similarities, especially going into this acting. I similarities first how am I like because I won't be attracted to doing something unless I can find some similarities in myself hence why this story is such a great story because all the characters are relatable so it was very easy to kind of navigate that part of Navarro because I myself you know I'm when the bell rings fierce fighter I have to be very physically,

it's a very masculine energy type of job. But then, you know, I'm such a Virgo lover, peacemaker, want to nurture and take care of. So, and so is Navarro. She wants to take care of her sister. She wants to protect these women. And that's a combination of the two. She has to be fierce, but she has to understand what's at stake for these women who are victims. And how is your new life in the acting world, the life of the lovies? It's interesting. I mean, it's, I love, the best thing about this, I love seeing my family's experience through this. Like, my experience and their experience is completely different.

My mom's elated about it. So it's treated me well. And very briefly, Lily Gladstone, the first Native American to become nominated for an Oscar. She won the Golden Globe. I mean, your reaction to that? I was folding clothes when the Golden Globes were on. I knew she was going to win. I busted out in tears. I cried. I was screaming. I was cheering. I was war crying, everything. I mean, what better? I mean, there's so much talent and there's so many, so much beauty

and all indigenous talent. But what better woman to have just gracing this path and holding the door open and being nominated. She's handling this with such grace and poise and just regalness. And I'm just so happy to be a part of it. And it's just times have changed. It's about time. It is about time. It is about time. And you are doing the same. I must say you are absolutely doing the same. It's been such a joy to speak to you. Thank you too uh i cannot i'm just gonna finish the program and then go straight back to carry on watching the rest of the series yes don't tell me what happens i won't my lips are sealed all right um thank you so much kaylee reese and you can watch the series finale of true detective night country from monday on sky atlantic and streaming service now thank you thank you so much to botany um 84844 is the

number to text. Now, if you remember, in January, we talked about a shocking report which warned of endemic misogyny and discrimination in the music industry. MPs from the Women and Equalities Committee found that sexual harassment and abuse is common. That report has resonated with many women and not just in music. My next guest, award-winning broadcaster Gemma Kearney, has written a piece in The Guardian about her experience in broadcasting and creative industries. She said she's battled racism and misogyny for years.

Last year, creative industries generated more than £115 billion. That's nearly 6% of the British economy. They employ 2.3 million people. So you can see why it matters how these people feel about their working environment. Also joining us is Professor Sarita Malik, Professor of Media, Culture and Communications at Brunel University, who's done extensive research on diversity, cultural representation and policy. She's also an advisor to the Department of Digital Culture, Media and Sports.

Welcome, Sarita. Thank you very much. Gemma, I'm going to come to you first. Why did you want to write this piece? Why now? I think I've had many years in the creative industries and it kind of got to a point where I was sick of bottling up a recurring thought and it comes from many different parts of myself it comes from me as a professional as a broadcaster as a writer as somebody who's founded a production company as somebody who's chair of a board of the edinburgh art festival but at the same time it came from the perspective of somebody who loves broadcast who loves, who cares a lot about the industry.

And I felt like I was being done a disservice as a lover of radio, for example. You know, I can't help but notice when I'm listening back to back to my favorite radio station and I'm just hearing all white male voices. So this is a complex conversation for me to have, but one that I felt very, very ready to have at the same time. So what made you ready? Why say it now? How hard was it for you to write it? Well, we announced that my production company which I founded in 2015 Boom Shakalaka very much for the purpose of platforming underrepresented voices and telling stories in a multitude of ways breaking down the barriers of genre and really reflecting

the fact that we live in a multicultural society that I very much believe in. And the reaction to the closure of Boom Shakalaka, which I founded in 2015, kind of started to speak to me in volumes. And it was just a few days later that I read the Misogyny in Music report. And, you know, as many have said, I echo that it was unsurprising. I'm familiar with the finding, and I'm thankful that people are raising their head above the parapet

and speaking from a place of truth. But at the same time, I just wanted to scream that a lot of truth but at the same time i just wanted to screen that a lot of the things that were coming up represent issues far far beyond the music industry this goes to the creative sectors as a whole and i've worked in them all i've worked in fashion i've worked in radio i've worked in tv like i've worked in production i've worked in fashion. I've worked in radio. I've worked in TV. I've worked in production. I've worked in theatre. I've worked in journalism. And misogyny, and it has to be said, it has to be stated, misogynoir,

is something that we need to be able to talk about. How has it played out for you? Representation being a prime example, silencing, feeling sometimes you know in an unspoken way that you're being treated differently. I'd be very interested in a kind of rallying for transparency when it comes to pay. I think we talk a lot about gender pay gaps but I'd be very interested in a kind of rallying for transparency when it comes to pay. I think we talk a lot about gender pay gaps, but I'd be very interested to know about the difference in pay for the ethnic minorities in the creative industry.

And it was just about time that I spoke about it, I think. You know, I've put a number of examples in the piece itself, but there are many, many, many, many more. And I don't want this to be my personal sob story. I just felt ready to be a spokesperson for us all to say that we as women, and especially if we are women of color, deserve more, deserve better. We need to look at the infrastructure and the systems behind this mistreatment and get through the barrier of uncomfortability. And it's such a shame for me to have to talk

about the fact that it is also to do with race. But even in the Misogyny in Music report, it specifically breaks down that these are the facts. And we have to address the uncomfortability that we all know who is at the bottom of the pecking order. There is a myriad of issues here, but who are the people that feel it the most? Who is at the brunt of all of this misogyny, it is black women, it is underrepresented voices, it is our trans community. And we have to address it.

Well, I'm going to bring Sarita in, because Sarita, you've done some research into this. Does Gemma's story resonate with your findings? Absolutely. I mean, the first thing I'll say that to read this piece and for Gemma to have written it is extremely honest. It's open and it's brave. And it's really important that when we try and understand the cultural industries, understand the latent inequalities that do still persist, that we hear these personal and direct testimonies.

It's very important, actually, to understand the internal working cultures and processes. I would call this, as a social scientist, qualitative data, and it is of great value. And as Gemma's just said, whilst it's important to foreground the individual and to foreground the private basis of struggle, we do need to look at the structural and systemic. And Gemma, you know, in spite of the idea that the creative industries are sort of organic, meritocratic, flexible,

liberal, actually, when we look at it, there are pockets of inequality. Well, let's get into your findings. And what's the wider picture like in broadcasting and the creative industries? Yes, and we can talk about the creative industries broadly, but obviously, each of the subsectors have variations and differences as well. But the three areas that I think are really important to pick up on that really sort of chime with what Gemma's written in such a heartfelt way. The first thing is about what happens once you're inside, what happens in terms of the ability, the flex to actually change the culture

within the organisation that you're working with. So Gemma references microaggression, senses of belonging, talks about this sense of having to prove yourself in spite of the vast experience over many decades that Gemma's had. And the other area is really around precarity and investment. And this is where referencing some of those freelance companies, which are often set up because they are the only way actually for those that have otherwise been systematically marginalized to actually to actually make art to be creative and have a creative career, chimes with this question of who gets to actually participate in the creative industries, and who's most likely to be able to take risks. And what we know is there's deep fragility in the creative industries when it comes to careers. And there are gatekeepers, and this has a particular impact on communities that might

be disadvantaged in society. We hear more and more now about downward social mobility as opposed to upward social mobility which is a pipeline question. Who's more likely to be able to get a career in the cultural industries? What are the blockages? And once in how do things like pay, promotion, attrition, progression work? So it's very much about that internal culture. But then the other area is about harm. And this is very much something that's picked up in the Misogyny and Music report,

which is what are the processes to deal with harm that is felt? How do all of these inequalities actually impact in terms of wellbeing? Where does one go? Well, and how has it impacted your well-being Gemma I mean massively um I'm very much somebody that fights hard for a sunny disposition I'm an optimist I love life I love creativity I believe in art I believe art can be a salvation I went to a non-fee-paying performing arts school at the Brit School, aged 16. Being in college was the safest place for me to be.

I grew up in a troubled home. And I found a sense of self-learning in the BBC. I didn't go to university. I was suddenly on one extra age 23 and I learned my craft and I love my craft I remember see I remember it was great when you appeared it was brilliant I grew up kind of in front of everybody and um I had a ball to a degree but the minute that i left one extra and i was quote unquote promoted to be a presenter on radio one which seemed like a big step ever since the glass ceiling has been present i've i've broadcasted on every single radio network I've hosted or co-hosted shows on one extra radio one radio two radio three

radio four and radio six and I mean my style my talent my tone my choice of of how I broadcast or what I choose to cover is subjective of course I completely understand that and not everybody has to like like what I do but the one thing that isn't subjective that is the truth is that I've been my experience I've been doing it for many years I've won awards people ask me all the time why I don't have a regular show and I don't actually have an answer to them but then as somebody who has decided to pivot my career to protect my mental health and move countries I live in Scotland now and you know I'm developing a career as a published writer and very much getting so

much from that it's so expansive I do feel and it's hard for me to talk about publicly, but on a personal level, pretty let down, disappointed and heartbroken by the fact that I don't have a proper answer as to why I don't have a regular show on radio specifically. That is my first craft. But I also do live TV, have fronted documentaries, etc. televisionally. I'm going to read out a statement from the bbc here who says um we employ a huge range of talented presenters and work with many more who appear on our networks as guest hosts to cover shows occasionally like jemma

occasionally presenters won't have ongoing contracts jemma last presented for six music in november 23 depping for lauren on breakfast at the bbc we're committed to creating a diverse and inclusive workforce we're committed to reflecting and representing the diversity of the uk um we were talking about well-being then how do you then continue how do i continue i mean i love my life i have a great life yeah i cold water swim as l Lorraine was talking about earlier. You know, I'm a happy person. I do so much creatively.

But in terms of what I think about this from a more activist perspective, I know from the reaction of my Guardian piece, from some super high profile, successful people, that it resonates and that we are affected. I want to bring Sarita back in on this, because i think we need to think about how we change this yeah um i mean you you're a researcher you do a lot of it a lot of insight into this that and we there's a lot of nuance personal lived experience it's difficult to treat this as a maths question and to express it in numbers isn't it absolutely and what i would say and what I argue in my research is that in a sense, there's two diversity stories. There's an institutional

story. So this is diversity as an idea. In fact, the creative industries, we can see how hyper visible diversity policies are, and they have been over decades. And this is kind of diversity as a public language, the idea of social responsibility, we think back to Black Lives Matter and the black squares and that sense of promise and hope and change. There's that institutional idea of diversity. But then on the other hand, we've got exactly what you're saying, which is this direct experience. And we have to hear that. We have to listen to that. And we have to understand that often the promise of diversity, that institutional story,

often bears no relation to the empirical realities of inequalities. And that is not just about numbers. And I think when we talk about inequality, we can't just look at numbers, we can't have this kind of number centric approach where we just look at the data. So data can make visible inequalities that exist, but it doesn't help us to understand the internal industrial culture. Has anyone ever done that? Has anyone ever got that research? The research for the... To see what people's lived experiences. Has anyone collated that information?

There's very little of it. So data is a really huge issue and data regimes are a huge issue. And that doesn't mean that quantitative data in itself is a bad thing, but we do need to complement that with qualitative data. And that is the lived experiences that we're hearing from Gemma and so many other people. So we've got this strange situation, this tension between policy and practice, between claims and real effects. I mean, Sarita, you advise the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport on diversity and inclusivity. This is your bag. Are you ever worried about these initiatives? I am because I think there's a lack of accountability. I mean, what can account for the fact that we've had years of diversity, EDI, moving much more to inclusion now, policymaking, and yet we are still hearing these stories.

But also there are other factors at work. You know, our population, our society, our demographic is much more complex. It's much more heterogeneous. It's much more intersectional. So what the Misogyny in Music report has done is it's talked about gender, but it's also talked about ethnicity and race, it's talked about misogyny, it's talked about misogynoir. Now, there's a whole question of whether actually diversity policies, many of them are fit for purpose, in terms of really being able to capture the complexity of the population. So for me, it's not a numbers game. In fact, if you look at broadcasting,

and you look at global majority representation, there's not a huge underrepresentation, but it's about where people are within those spaces. It's about decision making. It's about, as I said, the pipeline, which is a huge issue regarding the intersections with social class and disadvantage and privilege. So this is a very complex area. And I'm a little bit concerned about, if you like, the non-effective diversity beyond being, and I will say it, sometimes very performative. Sarita, Gemma, I'm going to test your broadcasting skills. You've got 30 seconds to tell me what you'd like to see happen not that they need testing mate not the need testing is that we need to literally look

at who is at the top I want transparency as to who's in production who are commissioners who is like coming up with the with the yeses and the noes as to where the funds are distributed. And this isn't just about me, honestly. This has caused such a huge reaction from so many of my peers. This is about us being able to support one another as women and creating a fairer equality amongst what is put out there and how it is made. Well, thank you so much for speaking to me, Gemma Kearney and Sarita Malik from Brunel University. And thanks to all of you for taking part in the programme. Join me tomorrow for

Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I think the power of the show was crazy back then. The X Factor promised to turn ordinary people into pop stars. We stood there behind the doors when 16 million people were about to watch you go on stage and Simon just stood next to you like, good luck girls, good luck. I'm Chi-Chi Zundu.

For years I was a BBC showbiz journalist who covered every twist and turn. I want to go behind the scenes to find out from staff and contestants what it was like. You don't just want average people. You wanted, you know, it was so bad. They were comical. I feel like I was humiliated just for the entertainment. Did the show ever come back and they said to me, Sam, will you come on and do it again? I'd be like, what time do you want me? Over six episodes, I'm looking back at

the good and the bad of one of Britain's biggest TV shows. For BBC Radio 4, this is Offstage, Inside the X Factor. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.