Woman's Hour - Lorraine Kelly, Paralympian Lauren Rowles, Chief Constable Sarah Crew

Episode Date: February 17, 2024

Lorraine Kelly CBE has been described as the queen of morning television. Now after a lifetime of wanting to, she has written her first novel, The Island Swimmer, a story of family secrets, island communities and overcoming fear. Lorraine joins Anita Rani to discuss her novel, her life and her 40-year career.It’s been almost 40 years since most UK coal miners went on strike over pit closures and proposed redundancies. It was one of the most divisive conflicts of a generation – but what role did women play? And how did it change things for them? Nuala McGovern is joined by two women who were there at the time – Lisa McKenzie and Heather Wood – to share their experiences. Violence and abuse against shop workers rose to 1,300 incidents a day last year. That’s according to new figures from the British Retail Consortium. Nuala hears from Michele Whitehead, a workplace rep for the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers, on what it’s like for her. Four years ago, Avon and Somerset Police offered Channel 4 unprecedented access to its Counter Corruption Unit, the people who police the police. Emma Barnett speaks to their Chief Constable, the first woman to hold the post, about why she made the decision to let the cameras in, and the consequences of doing so.Lauren Rowles is a two-time Paralympic Gold, World and European champion rower, who was on the Woman’s Hour Power List of Women in Sport. This summer she’s hoping to break a record at the Paris Paralympics – she tells Nuala about that, and her work away from sport advocating for LGBTQ+ people and those struggling with their mental health. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and a very warm welcome to this week's Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. Our best selection of things we've spoken about throughout the week gathered together just for you. Coming up this afternoon. Our women are not just helping with the men in the kitchens, they're on our picket line strike. What role did women play in the miners' strike 40 years ago and how did it change things for women? We'll find out.

Plus, the first female chief constable for Avon and Somerset Police who invited cameras into her counter-corruption unit. And... When I sort of got in a boat for the very first time, the most powerful moment for me was really pushing off from that side, being out on the water and not being in my wheelchair. And that for me was a really powerful moment in my life of just being free from the disability for the very first time since I had it. Hear the inspiring story of Paralympic team GB rower Lauren Rowles, including why cutting her hair short was such a pivotal moment in her career. All that to come and more, so grab yourself a drink and settle in.

Now, she's been described as the queen of morning TV, and yesterday I got to interview her. Lorraine Kelly joined TVAM as their Scottish correspondent in 1984, and save for a brief maternity leave 30 years ago, has barely left the schedule since, for the last 14 as host of ITV's Lorraine. Now, after a lifetime of wanting to, she's written her first novel, The Island Swimmer, a story of family secrets, island communities and overcoming fear. I started by asking her how she felt 40 years in. Do you know, it's strange if you'd said to me, you know, way back when I first joined, because I joined TVAM as Scottish correspondent,

the best job in the world and I loved it. And I never had any sort of thoughts about, you know, coming south and sitting on a pink sofa. It really wasn't, it just was never, I never thought about it at all. And only got asked to do some really for holidays after Lockerbie. And then I only brought enough knickers for a week and then sort of like you know 40 years later here I am so yeah it's been amazing though I love it I'm so lucky to be doing a job that I love with a great team

and every day is different it's like this every day is different you talk to so many different people and it's been incredible but none more different than what you're going through right now because after a broadcasting career 40 years you've written a book a novel or something you've always wanted to do always I mean I was really lucky um you know we lived in the east end of Glasgow and my mum and dad might know I've had very much money but they always made sure books were very much a part of our life the library to be honest we went to the library in Bridgeton in Glasgow and I virtually lived there. I mean, it was the world, wasn't it? You walked in the doors and there was the world was yours.

And my mum taught me to read and write before I went to primary school. So I was a bit of a swat in that sense, but always, always had books, always reading, you know, always talking about books. So it was very much sort of ingrained in me, but I never thought I would get the opportunity to do it or indeed the time and I just basically was a hermit yes and I didn't go out well well let's talk about the book before we talk about the process yes um the story

because actually writing a wanting to write a book is one thing but actually thinking of knowing what you want to write about was the story always there tell us a bit about it. Kind of. It's always going to be set in Orkney because I love Orkney. Why Orkney? I went there as a reporter back in 84 and I go back every single year because I just love it. There are some places that just, they pull you back.

You know that way you go somewhere and you think, oh, I'd quite like to go back there one day. It's like I need to go back and I still haven't seen everything that's going on. So Orkney is very much a character almost in the story. But it's really about a young girl who you find out why she has to leave Orkney. It's quite traumatic and very difficult and very deep. And she has to leave.

She tries to rebuild her life in London, but she doesn't feel she's worth anything. You know, she's got that sense of I don't deserve happiness. I don't deserve a good relationship. And then she has to go back to Orkney 20 years later when her father gets really ill. And it's trying to rebuild bridges. It's trying to come to terms with tragedy, misunderstandings. There's a very toxic relationship with her sister. And at the end of the book, some things are resolved, but not everything.

It's not tied up in a little bow. Some of these relationships never get resolved, which is why I'm not done with these characters. I was so sad to say bye-bye to them, Anita. Because they live in your head. They do, and they're real. I can see them. I can absolutely see them. And it's so interesting because a lot of writers have said to me,

Marion Keys in particular, has said to me, you don't know where your characters are going to take you. And I used to say, how can that possibly be? You're writing it but I get it. I understand it now. I got very excited when I saw that Marion Keyes had commented on the book because I thought, oh my God, Marion Keyes. I mean, that's the

ultimate stamp of approval. That's it really. I mean, that's it now. That's just wonderful. But so far, I mean, it's only been out for a couple of days, officially. But so far, the reviews have been so lovely. And I just want people to dive into it and to enjoy, you know, like when I read a Maeve Binshey book.

Yeah. I'm right there in the world that she's created. And your characters will draw people in and you get to feel a sense of them straight away. And it's a really diverse cast as well. Very much so. Very, very much so. And I think the device of the fact

that there is a wild water swimming group or as Freya, who's my favourite, Freya's a wise woman. She's in her late 70s and she's kind of at the heart of the story in many ways. She's a trans woman. Everybody, yes. But it's kind of like, you know,

when she's 15, she is Freya. She was Magnus, a wee boy, living in a small island. And everybody just accepts, oh, there's Magnus, it's 15. She is Freya. She was Magnus, a wee boy living in a small island. And everybody just accepts, oh, there's Magnus. It's fine. You know, that's what he is. And then he becomes Freya and some people get a wee bit wrong. But what I really wanted to do was to show that we're all different, but essentially we're all the same.

And Freya is just a woman. She is wonderful. She can be a bit interfering at times. Sometimes she takes it too far. But a lot of her is based on my grandmother. My grandmother was one of these. Oh, she was an incredible woman. What was her name?

Margaret. She was called Peggy. And she used to, like she always said to me from I was tiny, she would say, don't save anything till best. So my gran, she would festoon herself in scarves and massive, you know, colourful jewellery. She'd spray herself with tweed perfume. Every time I smell tweed perfume, I'm back with my gran.

But she would do that, Anita, to take the bins out. I mean, she just was somebody who said, seize the day. And that thing of how often... I love that she was such a Scot that she had to spray herself in tweed. Oh, yeah, exactly. She sprayed herself with the perfume. that she was such a scot that she had to spray herself in tweed oh yeah exactly she sprayed herself with the perfume but she was amazing and and i love that attitude of you know don't don't keep things for a bit we all do it don't we we get a really beautiful dress and we think oh well i can't wear that or those shoes and we sit there in the cupboard gathering dust

it's crazy no i made a change i've decided that it's when, if not now, when. Exactly. Just don't say anything to us. But how many people have asked you specifically about talking about Freya and the surprise that you've put a trans character in there? Yeah, because I wanted people, because in the book, you get to know her first and then you get her background a little bit. I don't go into it in huge, great detail because, you know, she's just Freya and she even says herself, you know, I just want to be accepted for who I am, that's all and I think that was the message that I really wanted to get across was the fact that, yeah, we're all just trying to get on with our lives and everybody's different

in that sense, but everybody's the same. We've got an awful lot more in common when we actually start talking to each other than we have that separates us and she is very much part of the whole community, all of the stories, I didn't really realise that at the time but when I look at it now, all of the

stories go back to Freya, she's connected to every single person, she is the person like she's the one who has the selkies they're called, the swimming group a selkie is like a mythical creature, half woman half seal and Evie is very frightened of the water, you find out why and you can understand why.

And it's all about, and it's all about as well, women supporting other women and holding them up, whether they're holding them up physically in the water or just holding us all up emotionally. It's about that too. Yeah, and as you say, swimming, cold water swimming features in the book. And it's something that you do yourself?

Well, yes. On your Instagram? Honestly, very foolishly, Anita. The first time I ever did it. Where did you do yourself well yes on your instagram honestly very foolishly and you said the first thing the first time i did it antarctica i do not recommend this i i mean i think this was quite silly um but i did go in and because we were doing this fantastic trip to antarctica where we're following in the footsteps of ernest shackleton who's my absolute hero beyond you know i'm just love him so that for me was like, I was like a child. I was like a toddler. And when they stopped at Deception Island,

they said, look, if you want to, you can go in. And I put my swimming costume on ready, but I took all my clothes off, you know, really fast and left them on the beach and ran in. I kept my hat on and my gloves, ran in, very quickly ran out again. Yeah. And I could actually see, I couldn't feel anything at all.

So I couldn't get my clothes back on because we're all inside out. And I was trying, I couldn't feel anything. So I had to sort of go back to the wee boat and I could see the ice forming on the hairs of my arms oh no but do you know what I have never felt more alive um I want to ask you about changing I mean I know you haven't changed your career you've just added another string to your bow because you've got so much time obviously oh yeah it loads how did you find the time to do this I Like I said, I was quite selfish and my husband was great because you can't

do things like this on your own. Nobody can do anything on your own. You can't do this on your own. You know, you obviously have a great team round about you but my husband picked up a lot of the slack and when I was on it, when I was writing, I was really, really writing because for me it's a full time job writing an novel. That's why I waited for so long. But I sort of

feel at this stage, you know, there's a lot of big milestones this year. I'm going to be 65. My daughter's going to be 30, 40 years in Breakfast Telly. It just felt like the right time. And also, and I'm sure you're the same. You sort of, it's not based, the book isn't, the characters aren't based on anyone in particular. There's a little bit of my grandmother and Freya. But it's about the fact that you've been talking to people for so long people have trusted you with their stories and you can pick up things and just by listening, you can pick up

lots of different traits of people and you can put it in the story. And there's a lot of fun in there as well. There's a lot of laughs and a really good sense of humour too. And I wanted to get the light in the shade too. I think you said a word there, trust. My next question was going to be, how have you managed to stay at the top for 40 years? But I think you said a word there, trust. And my next question was going to be,

how have you managed to stay at the top for 40 years? But I think just sitting here, and you have interviewed me, so it's such a brilliant privilege in my life to be able to be interviewing Lorraine Kelly. I think, Pete, we trust you. I hope so. I hope so.

And that really is down to just being there every day. You know, it's about that. And also I do try, I always think, and I always say to anyone who says, you know, I'd love to do this job or I would like to be a journalist or whatever. You really have got to do your homework. That's first of all, obviously you've got to do that.

But you've got to listen and it's never about you and give people the opportunity to talk. I mean, sometimes that's quite hard because I've only got a certain amount of time to talk to someone. But it's really important that you do the work. That's all I would say, do the work. That's why when I was doing the book, I actually enjoyed the editing process because I do that every day. It's like you, I get tons and tons of information about a guest and then you've got to distill it into and in your head, have two or three bullet points

and then just go where the conversation takes you. But now that you're 40 in if when you sit down I don't know if you have you probably have and reflected yeah because you know you've your parents you know you come from very working class background in Glasgow and here you are the queen of daytime tv the dowager duchess 40 years I mean it's still a great title uh 40 years in I know it's astonishing isn astonishing, isn't it? Well, where did that come from? Where did your confidence come from? Oh, I don't even know if I've got confidence. I've still got a wee bit of that working class cringe where you think, you know, somebody,

if you're somewhere posh, somebody's going to tap you on the shoulder and say, I'm terribly sorry you'll have to leave. I don't know. I think from my family. I mean, I think from my mother. I'm so glad that my mum likes the book. And because my mum will tell me in the morning she'll say what

was that you know like what were you wearing or what was your hair like or more to the point she'll say why did you not ask this question she's really good and very you know and I don't I don't know what a celebrity lifestyle is Anita I've got no idea what it is Well you were on Graham Norton yesterday

that is pretty celebic can you tell us about that I was the only person on that sofa that I had no idea, you know, who didn't know who I was. I mean, you know, I had no idea who I was. It was just magical and funny. Now, I don't think I could have done that even 10 years ago. Honestly. Why?

Besides Olivia Colman and Jodie Foster. I mean, come on. It's still that thing of you can't quite believe you're there. I mean, I do remember interviewing Buzz Aldrin, the second man in the moon, and that was, for me, the ultimate interview. I mean, it was a terrible interview because I was fangirling all over him and you probably thought... More than George Clooney?

You were fangirling? Much more than George Clooney. And even now, I look up at the moon, because my dad bought me a telescope when I was five and we watched the moon landings together, and I look at the moon and think, I've actually spoken to a person whose feet, whose body, who was on the moon. How amazing is that? And I spoke to the person that interviewed the person whose feet were on the moon. How about that? That was me speaking to Lorraine Kelly yesterday and her book The Island Swimmer is out

now. Now 40 years ago next month most of the coal miners in the UK went on strike over pit closures and proposed redundancies. The strike lasted a year and was one of the most divisive conflicts of a generation. But what part did women play? Here's a BBC News report from May 1984. If there was an award for the most kissed man in Barnsley today, there's no doubt about the winner. The women gave Arthur Scargill the pop star treatment,

queuing up for him to sign their T-shirts. Mrs Scargill was there to see things didn't get out of hand, however. She's led the campaign to stop local traders withdrawing credit from strikers' families. Some wives with young families are managing on £25 a week, but they say the lost housekeeping and cancelled holidays only make them more determined. Mining's a male monopoly, and by tradition, women have no-no accepted their place.

But that, said Mr Scargill, is over. Our women are not just helping with the men in the kitchens, they're on our picket lines. The voices you heard there were BBC correspondent Michael Cole and Arthur Scargill, the president of the National Union of Mine Workers. I like the detail that Mrs Scargill was on hand just in case things got out of control. And tomorrow, BBC Two is broadcasting Miner Strike,

a frontline story which features personal testimony from 15 men and women, including Lisa McKenzie. She joined NULA alongside Heather Wood and they told her about their memories of that year, starting with Lisa. Yeah, it was 9th of March, 1984. I was in bed and I could hear a load of voices downstairs, which was very unusual because my dad was on days, which meant he leaves at four o'clock in the morning and comes back at two in the afternoon so I thought what's what's going on is it something to do with my birthday I love the way kids think right it must be to do with me well you say kid but I literally

changed from that day from a kid to an adult you know that was one of the things about the strike that year I went to work and my wages were important to the family so I wasn't a kid really for very long so yeah I went downstairs and my mum said we're on strike and that's it immediately she got on you know sprung into action she was cancelling the butcher cancelling the milk she knew you know immediately money is going to be tight she's going to change everything she knew it's going to be a long time as well my mum was a trade unionist um she'd shop steward for her trade union which was the knitwear footwear and apparel union um she'd been organizing women and

trade unions for many many years and she immediately knew what was going to happen. So literally the day my dad came home and wouldn't cross the picket line, we started setting up Ashfield Women Against Pitch closures in our house with other women and I didn't go back to school again. That was it? That was like a full-time job? You were going out?

Well, I went to school the next day and I'd got Colnock doll stickers on me. And the school was not happy and sent me home. There's also a lot of police in the area that were starting to harass us for many different reasons. Harassing me because I'd got the Colnock doll stickers on, but also harassing some of my school friends, trying to get them in the back of the van.

And so my mum just went, you know what, you're not going back. So I didn't go back. So that begins to illustrate this division that there was from day one between some in authority and others that were going out on strike. I want to bring in Heather. Now, you were older than Lisa at the time. You were 32. You had young children. What do you remember from those early days? I think I had already learned a lot from the previous political activism that I was involved in. But it was in 83 when we first realised

as a community what was going to happen the way Thatcher was creating a society of selfish individuals. But at the beginning, it was excitement because I saw this as an opportunity to get women together, get women involved, get women to have opinions, have ideas, have views. And that's the way I felt at the beginning. I knew it was going to last a year. Somebody asked me, how long will it be?

How did you know that? Because I knew Margaret Thatcher was a stubborn woman, a stubborn woman, and she was determined to get back at us because of what the miners did to Heath in 74, because we'd beaten him Margaret Thatcher was out to get the NUM and mining communities so and I knew she wouldn't give in easily so I said prepare that's my forte organise prepare and prepare for the long run and that was a year to me. Well let's talk about that with both of you lisa what do you

remember of the organizing preparing what were the women doing around yeah i mean one of the things that was happening with with our women is nobody was short of opinions no one was short of political nows you know people when you live in mining communities, the politics are there every day, all the time, in your house, being talked about constantly. So it wasn't, you know, women has always sort of been political in their communities, whether it's about organising schools, whatever. So they just came together and started organising the way they did. But interestingly enough, there was other women in our area that had been organising from the 1926 general election. We had a woman called Ida Ackett. You know, on day two, she's round our house and she's saying, right, this is what we did in 1926.

So therefore, you know, we were writing letters, you know, longhand, having to ask anybody for help and for support in order to get the soup kitchen set up. And people came through? Yes, yeah, yeah. I mean, my mum, she didn't have a good education at school, but we were writing longhand and then I was sort of going through it. We sent letters to Malupa, baby food. They sent us a load of baby food.

And then within a few months, we'd got the soup kitchen set up. Which was a huge part of trying to feed people. Yeah. Then it was also a place where we came together, a place where you could sort of strategise and talk. And unlike other areas, Nottinghamshire, because most of the men were working,

we didn't have any access to the welfares or the spaces of the union because we were the minority. So we had to find other places. And you see that division in the documentary between maybe Yorkshire, for example, and Nottinghamshire. But back to you, Heather, what was the most important thing you think that women were doing at that time where you were? At first, it was the important thing to the women that I was involved with was to provide food sustenance, which has usually been the woman's accepted place in our societies. But I have to say as well, women in our communities

have always been the backbone because whenever there's been a problem, it's the women that have come out and sorted it. But it's never been recognised really by the rest of society. In our communities, it's accepted. But out of sight,

there's a myth that in mining communities, they have these big strong men ruling these little women in criminal and dresses and that's just not the way it is can i just please do i see lisa's nodding her head there i completely agree with that i mean there's been a a narrative since the strike and i saw it at the time when we we started to get a lot of people coming into our communities first time I'd ever met middle class people when they came into our communities. And I remember the narrative was already starting then

that women in mining communities had been oppressed. You know, they just carried children and cooked. And then all of a sudden this narrative about, oh, they've come out of the kitchen. Because there was this line that I've heard and seen that women were liberated by the miners' strike. Yes, that was a narrative. But anybody who's lived in a mining community

or been in a mining family knows that's not, women were not oppressed in those communities. We just lived in communities and people had different roles. Women's roles was basically to keep it going. Back to you, Heather. I can see you're nodding. Yes, I totally agree. But I do also think there were a lot of women who didn't understand what their capabilities were. That was the problem. They had opinions, they had views that were stressed within the home, but they'd never gone out there and been political.

And at first it didn't happen around here. I don't know about any other area, but in our area, it didn't happen at first. Food on the table was the first thing. After that, it was, all right, we want to go on the picket lines. We want to go to rallies. We want to speak. We want to be interviewed by television. And it happened. But how was that received by the men in these pictures? And of course, it won't be this. I can't make one massive generalisation. But from what you saw, Lisa, for example. picket line at all. Why? My dad worked at Silver Hill Pit and that's where Anne Scargill was arrested and my dad had seen Anne Scargill get arrested. For a start he didn't really think that they should have been there. He thought that they were sort of trying to you know bring the press and they were trying to cause trouble and remember this is in Nottinghamshire. Our lives were very different there. You know we didn't have the whole community behind us.

So when he saw Anne Scargill arrested, you know, and she was treated quite roughly, he didn't want women on the picket line, which was interesting because I used to go, but I'd go with all the young lads who, you know, sort of, they're a couple of years older than me. And he never really thought about that. He never said anything about that.

It was more about his wife. Yeah. Yeah. And other women. And there was a lot of men that was quite against it, really. Did they come around? Well, I don't think they came around. It's just that the women, I mean, my mum just went,

we're going and that's it. And there was massive arguments. But, you know, I was just I was going all the time anyway. I want to come to also what you think the repercussions of that time were. The documentary is so thought provoking. And you begin to see also, perhaps through women's eyes as well, how it affected not just them, but the men that they loved. Heather? In our communities, it changed. It was devastating at the end of the strike because we knew what was going to happen. We knew that our pitch would close, even though

at that time, our pitch was in the black. We were profit making colliery, but they made it so that it was unprofitable. We were in the red. So we knew, so we were scared. We were all scared together. Men, women, children, everybody knew that the pit had made... You see, before we had the mine in our village,

there wasn't a village. The mine brought the houses, brought the jobs, brought the families. So we knew what was going to happen. Devastation. And it really devastated us. I heard you say, Lisa, that the pit was life. Yes.

Well, the coal. The coal lived with us. We had coal in our houses. It lived with us. It was part of your family. You know, it was the very thing that kept us going. You know, my granddad had said to me when I was two and three, you know, we are the most important people in the country.

We keep the lights on. And I grew up really believing that being working class, coming from a mining community, I was so lucky. I used to think, God, aren't I lucky? Until the strike and then afterwards. And we were no longer the people that kept the lights on. We were old fashioned, no good, stuck in the past, the enemy within. And do you think, how long do you think that feeling or that?

Yeah, I suppose really the repercussions of that narrative lasted. We're still here. This is it. This is what has happened to these communities. It's never changed. We still looked backwards, no good, holding the country back. You could see it with the Brexit debates, actually, the way that we were being spoken about. Lisa McKenzie and Heather Wood,

and that documentary about the miners' strike is on BBC Two tomorrow evening at nine. As always, we had several of you getting in touch with your own memories or experiences to do with this story. And this one particularly stood out from Chris. He says, I knew a couple of women in Sheffield who'd been very active in their pit villages strike and decided they preferred each other to their husbands. I don't think that would have happened without their activism in the strike. Great story.

Still to come on the programme, the chief constable who invited cameras to film her officers and what came out of that and why one Team GB Paralympian says cutting off her hair made all the difference. And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. Just head to BBC Sounds and listen anytime, anywhere, for free. Now, figures released earlier this week by the British Retail Consortium

show that violence and abuse against shop workers rose to more than 1,000 incidents a day last year, up by 50% in the year up to September 2023. We know, of course, that women still make up the majority of retail workers. So what's this like for them? Nuala spoke to Michelle Whitehead, a workplace rep for Usdor, the shop workers union, who told her she wasn't surprised by the figures.

No, I'm not actually. In fact, I probably would have said it was more. What has your experience been? Our experience at work is it's a daily occurrence and it's more than once. They're coming in, they're abusing us, they're raiding our shelves, pushing us out the way, leaving, laughing at us. What else?

There's loads of things. Sometimes I just get a bit too upset to talk about it because it's a daily occurrence, to be honest with you. You say raiding our shelves. You're talking about shoplifting? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You can fill it up and then within five minutes, it seems like they know we've filled it up

and they come in and they take the lot. And so do you think those incidences of violence and abuse are directly correlated with a rise in shoplifting? Oh gosh, yeah, because you ask them to put it back and they push you out the way. I mean, myself, I've had things thrown at me

in the process of saying, could you please put the stuff back? I've had items thrown at me, a basket thrown at me. It's quite horrific. I was mentioning there that you were working for 20 years. So you've really got that whole trajectory of experience to look back on. Can you pinpoint where it changed?

We've always had a bit of abuse, but not as much. And I think COVID changed a lot of it. I think a lot of people decided that they were frustrated with the way the world was. So we were one of the key workers. We were one of the main shops open. So I think they came in with their frustration, took it out on us.

And I think it's a trend that's carried on because nothing was done back then. They were allowed to bawl and shout and throw things at us and I think it's a trend that's carried on because nothing was done back then. They were allowed to bawl and shout and throw things at us and get frustrated and it's just carried on because nothing has been done about it. And your experience is something that's replicated

by other members of the union? Oh gosh, yeah. All of us in retail experience abuse, all of us. Yeah. All of us in retail experience abuse. All of us. But you talk about it in such a resigned way, maybe, you know, that that's part and parcel. That's part of my job. Unfortunately, I mean, us do do do a campaign where abuse is not part of the job. And they're doing their best to lobby the government of the day to change the law. But it is part of your job, unfortunately. You just get so used to being shouted at or summit thrown at you

that it just becomes the norm, unfortunately. I can't imagine that level of stress on a daily basis. Have you thought about leaving? I do look at other jobs, but we have had people leave and it's the colleagues you leave behind because we do have conversations about colleagues we have left and they all have left because of the abuse, totally. I mean, we have been doing job interviews in my store recently and one of the applicants was actually in the shop while another member of staff was being abused and she retracted she said there is no way she could be able to tolerate that that we have to put up with she just happened to be in that store

that well it happens all the time to be honest with you so the likelihood of most people that come in our store seeing something, they've all seen it. You mentioned that nothing was done to tackle it. What do you want done? I want the government to follow Scotland and make it an offence to abuse shop workers. That's a start. I want more police on the ground because there's hardly any police on the ground. I don't blame the police, they're just busy.

But because they don't see it as a crime, they just give us a crime reference number and that is it. They hardly come out and see us. I mean, if I was abused in the street, I would get the police come round, take a statement, and sort something out for me. But because I happen to wear a badge with a company name on it they're not interested and I don't understand the difference and I think that's why I get upset and you know frustrated and come home and I do cry because it's not fair. I'm just doing my job that I used to really, really enjoy.

But it's getting too much now. So it has been that cumulative effect of each day building up? It is, yeah. Yeah, it is, yeah. I mean, I don't know how much more some of us can take, really. I really don't. And that is interesting that it has been a law put in in Scotland to the effect that it would be

a standalone offence. And that's what you're looking for in England and Wales. We did get a statement from the Home Office. They said the policing minister has been clear that police must take

a zero tolerance approach to shoplifting. Violence against retail workers is unacceptable. That's why we made it an aggravating offence to ensure tougher sentences for perpetrators. We continue to work

closely with retailers. The police have committed to patrol more areas where there's shoplifting. They say good progress has been made on these commitments but I have a feeling you won't agree with that. Definitely not. No. Oh no. Sometimes you'll see a copper but very rare. I think we saw one last week because they actually caught one of the guys stealing from another shop and he'd got co-op products and we're the only co-op in the area so he actually brought them back to us.

Do you think you'll stay in the business? I honestly don't know to be honest with you. Something's got to change and that's why I bang the drums about our campaign Freedom from Fear for us door because I want it to change. I love my job and it would be a shame that these individuals have caused me to have a career change that I'm not looking for, to be honest with you. Michelle Whitehead, a workplace rep for the Shop Workers Union, speaking to Nuala. Now, last week saw the end of a very powerful TV series that looked into something we've heard a lot about on Woman's Hour over the last couple of years, police misconduct. Four years ago, Avon and Somerset Police offered Channel 4 unprecedented access to its counter-corruption unit, the unit that polices the police.

The result is a devastating three-part documentary series called To Catch a Copper, where cameras follow cases from the point of view of investigators, accused officers, victims, legal professionals and community leaders. The chief constable of Avon and Somerset Police, who made the decision to let the cameras in, is also the first female chief constable, Sarah Crewe. She joined Emma, who asked if she had doubts about letting the cameras in in the first place. No, I don't regret that at all.

Policing is done by consent in this country and that involves the police and the public in an open relationship we have some really strong even coercive powers and certainly lots of authority as police officers and I think transparency and accountability go with those powers and so no I never regret opening the doors for the public to come in and look and see. The first scene in the first episode, officers are trying to handle a woman who's threatening to take her own life. Very quickly, she's restrained physically.

She's then fitted with a spit hood after trying and failing, it seems, to spit at one of the officers. And then within that very small confines of a spit hood, I'd never actually seen one up close before. She's pepper sprayed in response to kicking out. And, you know, the strength of that pepper spray is such that one of the officers says we need to get a van because I can't now drive that car. But that's up in her face within a spithood. What is your response to that?

It's really shocking, isn't it? You know, ashamed, angry, disappointed. really shocking isn't it you know ashamed angry disappointed all of those things when we invited documentary makers in um you know we we opened our doors and we expected them to find misconduct but frankly as i didn't expect them to find that but they did um and those are my reactions to to what i saw it's female police officers isn it, in this case, dealing with a woman, a member of the public, who, when your other officers trying to police the police look at this, expected, not because they're women, I should hasten to add, but because of the woman's situation, they expected some care and a difference of treatment. Is it more disappointing because

it's women? I think it's disappointing. For some reason, it feels more shocking. However, it's indefensible from anyone, to be fair. And I think that's the reaction of every and the vast majority of police officers, police staff who work in policing up and down the country, that that is a very shocking, disturbing scene. It's shocking and disturbing as well that there are two people there and one's not able to check the other. You know, I always think that the superpowers that police officers need to have are compassion and empathy and patience, and as well as courage and all those other things that we expect of policing.

But they were sadly lacking in that interaction. I mean, the series starts with that, but I also start there because a lot of the narrative at the moment, if we're talking about how to trust the police, is in light of male police officers abusing their positions. A lot of the time it has been, and especially when it comes to relationships with members of the public who are women. So you know and we should also say the women also joke to each other about getting a tandoori at this point it's incredibly distressing situation going on and

and and are talking to each other during this themselves um and and having all sorts of jokes that again perhaps we've been hearing more about men doing that sort of thing. It then does move to an even another level of shocking when we hear a call come in from a woman, a member of the public, who's quite confused as to whether she should be complaining or not, but remembers being drunk, picked up by a police car who in some way seems to have been offering to take her home after a drunk night out. And she'd been drunk and I think disorderly within a nightclub and they end up having sex and she doesn't know if that's wrong or not the police officer is named it is a crime to do that as I understand it what was your reaction to that one well so my reaction was um immediately through the call handler who took that call was was very good and said no no, this is not all right. A police response then took place. Our counter corruption unit are featured throughout that story, working really, really hard to investigate that case and actually bring it before a courtroom.

And they did. And actually, that case went to trial on two occasions because on the first occasion the jury were unable to reach a verdict and you know that the criminal justice system did its work and in that case the officer wasn't found guilty then there was you know as an organization that same unit pursued the misconduct process and again that did come to a conclusion but it came to a conclusion that there was no case to answer for gross misconduct. So this documentary was about showing that system. What I saw was a recognition that this felt wrong and a very robust response and investigation

which exploited both the criminal justice system and the police misconduct regime. There's a clip of something that you have to say that we wanted to play this morning. Let's just have a listen. You know, I can think of friends that I have outside of policing, you know, women who haven't ever had any need to have any lack of confidence in the police who said to me, Sarah, if I was driving my car and it's in a country lane and a police car came up behind me and it put the blue lights on and it requested me to stop, I wouldn't stop.

If 50% of the population are beginning to feel that way, then we've got a problem. Is that how you feel? No, because my experience is that most of the police officers I've worked with and a lot of the men, I don't fear. I think I'm safe. Do you still think that, though, after what you've seen? You've seen more in this, I imagine, than you had seen, as you say, in your working life day to day. And your friends saying that to you must be very sobering.

It's incredibly sobering so well that's not my experience i i completely accept it from my friends experience and i can completely empathize and understand it's shocking it's a moment actually that calls me to pause and stop and really think hard what do we need to do to drive back public confidence um this documentary is part of that because I think it's important. Don't you think it's going to do the opposite? You know, I was watching it. I have to say, it's not the type of thing I would choose to watch of an evening. I watched it to make sure I was informed ahead of our conversation, of course.

I felt even worse. I think in the short term, but all of those incidents that are featured, they happened. Yes. All of those other incidents that we hear about up and down the country, they happen. And aside from this documentary, you know, that that feeling of that friend of mine, but also the figures that look at public confidence, particularly among women. Confidence is falling and it's falling drastically aside from putting it on a documentary. So we need to do something drastic to improve it. And I think being honest and open and confronting the reality, both with the public, but also within policing, within the good policing that we see, I think is incredibly important on that journey. I don't

think unless you accept that you have a problem, can you truly come back from that problem? You know, four or five years ago, you talked about me being the national lead for rape and sexual offences, for adult sexual offences. We had another documentary where we invited documentary makers in to see how we were investigating another issue, which is incredibly important to confidence of women, and that's sexual abuse. And it presented a picture of us that, you know, wasn't how we wanted to seem, but it made us sit up and look

and change the way we were operating. And it also actually brought in lots of support from women and from women's groups up and down the country, including academics who step forward towards us to say, you accept and acknowledge that there's room for improvement, well we're stepping towards you to help you improve, and that's what's happened, and you know, some of our work here in Avon and Somerset is now being rolled out nationally called Operation Soteria, and I think back to, I think you have to acknowledge the challenges

as well as the great work that goes on in policing before you can step forward, especially with communities, to make a change. I suppose just if I, you know, looking at some of the reports that have been done, the view of certainly within the Metropolitan Police that there's institutionalised misogyny, sexism, racism, if you looked at Dame Louise Casey's report, but also what's been said about other forces with those same issues.

There's a knowledge of it, and it's not just a film like this. There's been reports, there's been other things that's been done, but it is not translating yet into a change in public confidence, nor does it seem to be translating in a change of culture. That's the issue, the lack of evidence around that. What would you say to that? That's precisely why I think that it's very important to be transparent and to acknowledge those problems.

But it's not working having this particular counter-corruption unit in the sense of, you could say it was working because of them, what happens, but it's not enough of a deterrent to stop a police officer picking up a drunk woman and having sex with her in his car well then the system needs to be improved to change that in the in the system though is it how do you i'm not holding you accountable for him but how do you make it that you don't think that that is acceptable on any level to do because it's already a crime that's what that individual knows or they should know certainly as a police officer and they already know they

will be investigated by the systems that you have and it still happened absolutely it has and that's why the system needs to change but also as you say i'm not accountable for the whole system but i can throw a light on that whole system. And we're having this debate now about the system and how it might need to change to inspire greater confidence and deliver the right outcomes that will generate that confidence. How do you think you could get your friends then over to a place where if there's a police car behind them, they aren't scared and they feel OK about pulling over? How do you think you'll be able to do that and how long do you think it might take? Well, I'll be very clear. I will make sure as Chief Constable that I do everything within my power to ensure that people who have ill intent

don't enter policing, but also to create a culture within policing where every individual offers that challenge. When they see behaviour which isn't in line with our ethics or our values, they step up. It's not widely known that most of the misconduct that we see coming through is actually raised by colleagues.

And there are outcomes which hopefully will start to drive some of that confidence. But I think we've got to be great in policing as well. And in some areas, we're not great at policing. Chief Constable of Avon and Somerset Police Sarah Crew speaking to Emma and that documentary To Catch a Copper is available on the Channel 4 streaming service. Now you might remember almost a year ago, time flies, Women's Hour announced The Power List, our collection of incredible women in the world of sport. Well this week Nuala was joined by two-time gold medal Paralympic rower Lauren Rowles, who featured on that power list.

She's building up to what she hopes will be a record-breaking Paris Paralympics later this year. Lauren is also a strong advocate for LGBTQ plus representation in sport and has spoken very movingly about her struggle with mental health. She started by telling Nuala how it felt to be on the power list. Oh, overwhelmed in one sense. I think to myself some days, you know, when moments like that happen that I'm just Lauren trying to live my life. And you don't really think that what you do and being a sports person, I guess, in some senses is that powerful. But then the flip side of that is the impact that we do have as people and especially as women in sport and as a queer person in sport myself the impact that we have about influencing those around us and certainly for me my motivation to impact the younger generation and

so for me it was a real honor to feature on the list with some some absolute heroes of mine and women who are absolutely making impact in our world. Well, I've always enjoyed speaking to all the women on our Powerlist. And your story is quite something as well. Do you want to tell us a little bit about how you got into rowing? Yeah, I reflect on my start of my journey in rowing is a very funny one because I grew up in Birmingham and in Birmingham, you don't really do rowing. It's not really a common sport in the Midlands per se. And when I grew up, I never had any idea really what rowing was.

And really how I landed my spot in a seat in a boat was that I got offered an opportunity. I was talent scouted by the British rowing team in early 2015. But can we stop there for a second, just where you got scouted? Yeah, I got scouted at Stoke Mandeville Hospital, which is a spinal centre there. And until you're 18, you have to go back there every single year to receive sort of a check in, see how you're doing, how you're coping to life in a chair. And I had become disabled when i was 13 and i had a spinal injury and so until i was 18 i just kept going uh to stoke maddenville and in the one week that i was there in 2015 my sports therapist said to me the british rowing team are coming down and they want to find

some talent and get people on indoor rowers and at the time i was involved in wheelchair racing i was 16 i'd just come back from the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow and lived my absolute dream there and I just really didn't see myself moving away from the sport and then but I was taking a bit of a break I had an injury at the time and so when my sports therapist at St Manaville said to me you know you should come down and try rowing out I wasn't really convinced if I'm honest with you I'd never done rowing before never been on an indoor rower but I am massively competitive obviously and I remember she she pulled me down from the ward and she says please come down she dragged me down there and I got on this indoor rower and there was there's no joke this old guy

that was sat next to me and I just took one look at him and thought I'm gonna beat you today and that's where the journey started, really. And not long after that, I convinced my mum to drive me down to Reading from Birmingham, the 100 mile trip and get in a boat for the very first time. And that's how it began, really. But how did that feel, the first time you went to row on the water? Oh, it feels like the moment that I got in a boat for the very first time, I still remember vividly to this day because I remember how it made me feel. I think at the time of my life, just to give a bit of context, you know, I was a bit of a troubled teenager.

I'd become disabled overnight, literally when I was 13. And I had to become accustomed to living life with a disability. And I think I never really spoke to a therapist, though I was deeply encouraged to and sort of went to my obligatory appointments, but didn't really say anything because I think when you're a teenager, you don't really think that anything, or when you're a young person,

especially you don't think that anything bad is permanent. And I always thought one day, you know, my life would get better and that living with a disability wouldn't be permanent. It wouldn't be forever. And then I think when I got into my later teenage years and I realised just how permanent my condition was, I think for me, I just really closed myself into a box

and went into my shell. And sport for me was my therapy, my way of, I guess, battling the demons. And when I sort of got in a boat for the very first time, the most powerful moment for me was really pushing off from that side, being out on the water and not being in my wheelchair. And that for me was a really powerful moment in my life

of just being free from the disability for the very first time since I had it. And I was addicted to it ever since then. And that and the fact that it's really, really hard, which I love the element of something being so difficult and I just wanted to be good at it. And so I wanted to master the skill of it. It's way harder than it looks.

All I'll say that is that people get in boats and think they can just pull on the handles. It's absolutely not like that. It's such an element of skill. And that and the fact that I was going to work in a team full of amazing people as well that were teaching me not only about how to be an incredible athlete,

but disabled people around me that live normal lives. And I hadn't really seen that as a young person growing up with a disability. I didn't realise that you could have kids and a loving relationship and a job and you could drive a car. And I was learning all these things about having life with a disability that they showed me. Yeah, I mean, it was. I was watching on your website.

It was overnight. Just to let our listeners know, you were 13 years of age. Fine one day and not the next. And I will tell them to go to your website and take a look. Also, just at that time when you were 13. And so obviously, it's going to take a lot of time to process. And I want to get on to some of the home life as well. I just want to throw out to our listeners, though, as I speak to you, because you're on a screen in front of me, you have short hair. You didn't always have short hair. Tell me that story before I get to Paris. Ah, the story of the mullet, which is what I'm currently rocking now. Looks good. Fresh trim at the minute. But for me, I grew up with long hair always. In any photo you'll see of me when I was young, I had a bob once. I donated to the Little Princesses Trust and that was as short as

I ever went was a bob. But I always wanted to cut my hair short. I always had this urge as a young girl. I grew up loving football, always in a football kit, was a bit of a tomboy as they say now. And I just lived to do sport really. And I didn't really feel that feminine. But I knew I was a girl and I knew I was a woman. Then later when I grew up and I never I always identified as that. And it's not like I ever wanted to be a boy, but I always felt like I was different. And I wanted to make different choices in how I dressed and how I looked and how I wanted to have my hair. So what the other girls at my school did.

And then when I sort of was in school I was bullied for being a little bit different I was bullied for being the girl that did sport and was so into sport and wore football kit and hung out with the boys and I think that's where I started to realize that I was different to other girls and for me I think that progressed into then because I was so heavily bullied I then chose to make this decision to conform then I wanted to have friends and be popular like every young person does. And so I decided to conform. I pierced my ears.

I started wearing makeup. I started wearing more feminine clothing and conforming to what a woman or a young girl should look like in inverted commas. And that for me then, I sort of then stripped back who Lauren really was. And through my teenage years, it got to the point where I suffered so badly with anxiety and my lack of self-esteem that I would never go out the house without having makeup on

but yeah I hated wearing makeup I hated how it made me look but at the same time I felt like people would judge me if I didn't I had my hair consistently long I started wearing it only down I started wearing more um you know feminine revealing clothing and I think that for me it just didn't feel like me so when you chopped it so when I chopped it all off I did that a couple of years ago and in a point probably like some people when they go through a bit of mental health crisis maybe do something a little bit drastic. I was going through a really difficult point in my life. And I came out a few years ago. And as part of that journey, you learn who you are and you start to get to express that. And that's the beauty of Queer Joy. And I decided a couple of years ago when I was going through a bit of a rough patch, why not?

Like, why not now do something that makes me feel good about myself, makes me look in the mirror and go, you look amazing today, Lauren. So I cut my hair off and at the time you know I'd said to people for ages that I wanted to do it and they said don't do it you know that's you know you're gonna look like a boy and I just thought what a nonsense is this that still in 2022 we're still conforming to this idea of what men and women should look like and I'm a a bit of a defiant person, I'll say that. And I just decided, you know what, I'm going to cut you off. Well, it looks great. And there's lots of people that are getting in touch with their stories inspired by yours.

But I want to also look ahead while I have you to the Paris Games this summer. You've got a pretty clear goal in mind, a record breaking goal. What is it? My goal is this year, as I embark on my third Paralympic game selection hopefully um to make the GB team is to win my third ever Paralympic gold medal consecutively and that's never been done in the history of power rowing is for an athlete to win three back-to-back gold medals so to say that I'm doing something for the history books is an understatement and to have my name to that would be just my life's mission in sport as personally as an athlete

and to go out there and prove that you can be different in a sport that is a bit more traditional and you can be yourself authentically and that brings the best version of yourself to what you do and I really want to just promote that in what I do now.

The inspiring Lauren Rowell speaking to Nuala there and don't forget the full Woman's Hour Power List and a chance to watch the live reveal show is all on our website. And we asked you about your hairstyle changing stories.

Here are just a couple of your messages. An anonymous message says, I changed my hairstyle when I retired last July. I'm 66 and I'm thoroughly enjoying retirement, seeing friends, volunteering

and seeing more of my family. I decided to cut my hair and have a more dramatic style which made me feel more me and not like a retired person. I've had lots of compliments. Bet you look great. And a brilliant email from Susie who says, During my childhood, my mother wore her hair plaited and fixed on her head. One day, I returned from school to find my aunt having tea with a strange lady.

I asked where my mother was. The strange lady was my mother. On a whim, she'd had her long hair cut off and was now a platinum blonde. My father came home and did exactly what I'd done. He didn't recognise his wife. The news spread that he had a new woman and it was some time before the truth was revealed. Oh, there's nothing like the power of a new haircut is there for feeling refreshed. That's all from me today. Emma is back on Monday at the usual time of 10am. She'll be speaking to the actor Aisling Bea

about her new series Alice and Jack and a wellness influencer who takes her inspiration from Aristotle. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.