Woman's Hour - Lorraine Kelly, the Pelvic Floor Challenge, Women proposing

Episode Date: January 26, 2019

The doyenne of ITV Lorraine Kelly tells us what it’s like to have spent the last 35 years in broadcasting and why she's so excited about space travel.The Children’s Commissioner for England Anne Longfield discusses the growing pressure on child protection services. She says more needs to be done to tackle child poverty.Inspired by her own experience of 25 years in the Church of Scientology, Mariette Lindstein has written a thriller called Fog Island. It's a bestseller in Sweden and is about a fictional cult based on an island off the Swedish coast.The campaigner and founder of Victim Focus Jessica Eaton tells us why she believes some frontline child protection workers don’t feel equipped to do their jobs.Urinary incontinence will affect 50 per cent of women during their lifetime. Wendy Powell explains how the #PelvicFloorChallenge will help and physiotherapist Elaine Miller gives indepth advice.Freida Pinto tells us about her latest film Love Sonia about global sex trafficking.Why are men still more frequently expected to propose in heterosexual relationships? Editor of Bride Magazine Jade Beer and writer Bella Mackie, who proposed to her husband, discuss.Presented by Jane Garvey Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed Editor:Jane Thurlow

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, good afternoon. Welcome to the weekend edition of the programme. This week we've got a real treat for you, an interview with Lorraine Kelly. You can also hear the Children's Commissioner Anne Longfield on why she feels more has to be done about child poverty and why we all need to do the pelvic floor challenge. The stats are really damning. It's one in three women will wet themselves if they laugh or cough or jump. And there's a myth this is just part of life. It doesn't matter if you've had kids. It doesn't matter how old you are.

Your pelvic floor can always be improved with treatment and with doing your pelvic floor exercises. More on that later. We've also got the actress Frida Pinto on her new film Love, Sonia about the global sex trafficking industry and marriage proposals. In heterosexual relationships, why don't more women do the proposing? Like when I did it, there were lots of comments saying that I was desperate and, you know, pathetic. But the comments were from women. People might think it demeaning to sort of beg someone to marry you you, but of course the role's reversed and it's fine. That's Bella Mackey, who proposed to her husband and incredibly got criticism. We'll talk to Bella a little later in this edition of Weekend Woman's Hour.

Let's start with Lorraine Kelly, marking her 35th anniversary in broadcasting. She is the queen of ITV, reigns supreme at 8.30 in the morning, and viewing figures for her show Lorraine are actually at their highest level in five years. Her show is full of facts, but it's also unashamedly fun, frothy and ultra bright. I always know in my head who I'm talking to, and I never want to be patronising, and I don't ever think that you should ever talk down to your audience like other shows can do sometimes you should always try and entertain of course

that's what it's all about you know I've got a very noisy show before me with a very noisy man and then quite a noisy show afterwards Well the noisy men are

Morgan and Kyle Yes You are the jam in the sandwich Kind of yes absolutely The hideous soul Oh yeah

I know I don't want to even go there I think because I've been around for so long and people know me, it is like they're talking to their friend or they're listening to their friend. I think that's really important. You are hugely companionable and popular,

but you're also wildly successful. And you must be. Are you ITV's highest earning woman? I know. Definitely not. Definitely not. Who earns more than you? I have no idea.

Do you know, I don't know what anybody earns. And I think most people in TV and indeed in the media generally get really well paid for what they do. Really, we do. We're very lucky in that respect. But it's a business and people will pay you the going rate for that business. But if you, I mean, at the BBC, it's all out there now. We know that. But there's every reason to explain that

because we are funded by the general public and they've got every right to know. You're funded by the advertising revenue that comes in. But if you were to find out that there was another woman or maybe a couple of other women and maybe loads of men who out-earned you by half a million quid a year, you'd be livid, wouldn't you? No, I wouldn't.

Money has never really been a motivation for me. It really hasn't. I mean, like I say, obviously we get paid well, but I think if you're happy in what you're doing, I would say good luck to them. Unless the only proviso I would say to that is if two people are doing exactly the same job and one happens to be a man and one happens to be a woman,

of course they should both get the same. That is a given. I'm not from an affluent background. Nor am I. And I would say, actually, you were from a more working class background than myself. Of course they should both get the same. That is a given. I'm not from an affluent background. Nor am I. And I would say, actually, you were from a more working class background than myself. I mean, we all understand the way the British class system works, whether we're prepared to admit it or not. And are you perhaps a touch too grateful because of your relatively...

That's probably a really, really good analogy because there is a little bit of that working class cringe there is a little bit of that, oh my goodness me am I good enough, you know, I mean I always remember Billy Connolly would get in stick because he was pals with the royals and he said you know and actually quite rightly he said so I'm supposed to say no I can't come to Buckingham Palace because I'm working class and it's ridiculous but you're right there probably

is a little bit of that, I would certainly think so and that maybe is why I've kind of been a bit of that. I would certainly think so. And that maybe is why I've kind of been a bit more grateful than I should, perhaps. I know you largely lived and brought up your daughter in Scotland, didn't you? Was that a deliberate? I mean, you've now moved to London because your daughter is now a grown woman and off away working. Yeah, she's in Singapore.

Good luck to her. I know. Was it important to you for her to be brought up in Scotland? Well, she was born down here and she lived in England until we were, I think she was about 12 years old. And then I think we both always wanted to go home. There was always that thing that we wanted to go home. And I think for us, for her to get an education up there was really important. We thought it'd be better, if I'm honest with you.

And I think it was. And she was never embarrassed by you? Oh, yes, of course. She has embarrassed me all the time. That's my job. It's our sacred duty as mothers to embarrass our children. I don't think, we get on really, really well. We really do.

But I'm her mum. I'm not her friend. And I don't understand women that have got this thing that they want to be their daughter's friend because they've got their friends. I mean, I don't think for a nanosecond. I agree with you there. No, she's not going to tell me everything. I would love to think that she does. You don't want to hear everything. No I mean, I don't think for a nanosecond... I agree with you there. No, she's not going to tell me everything.

I would love to think that she does. You don't want to hear everything. No, indeed, I don't. But we do have a very, very strong bond and I miss her. I really, really miss her. And you know what? It's like you bring them up to be independent women

and then they go and be independent women, Jane. Yeah, and you're slightly shocked by it. I know. Yeah, you're quite right there. I know. I mean, talking about... I know you say, oh, I've never really experienced sexism, never been a thing.

Not really, no. Well, except that you lost one of your roles on morning television when you were pregnant. You got your revenge, but... Yeah. I mean, you did, but explain that story. Well, what happened was I got pregnant with Rosie, obviously, and back then, I mean, we're talking sort of 92,

I had her in 93. And it was quite unusual. Anne Diamond had been a sort of trailblazer because she was pregnant on air. But the fuss that was made. I know. And I still got a little bit of that, but because of Anne, not as much.

And then when I went away on maternity leave, bearing in mind that, you know, we're all freelancers and I don't have any rights, if you like. Two weeks before I was due to come back, I just got a call saying, sorry, we're not renewing your contract. That's it. Good luck. And that was, you can imagine, I've got a wee tiny baby. We'd just moved down south. My husband, who's a freelance cameraman, had moved all his business down south, still sort of getting you know sort of paving

his way if you like you know making his way um and I suddenly thought what am I going to do and what I did was I got my showreel I got my daughter and I went around the country asking it you know basically having auditions and having interviews and just saying I'm available it was really really really hard but that was that was sexism wasn't it? oh for sure I mean yeah in that sense I mean I don't think they would see it as that

you know they just saw it as an opportunity to change things because you know what it's like when they want to make a change to a show especially a show

like ours they'll change the cushions or the set or the presenters so it was seen as that was the way that they wanted to go but in the end

I came back because they got they wanted to do a mother and baby type show. They've got a big sponsorship for that. And I did that twice a week and it did really well. And then they offered me my own show. So it was the best outcome, but not at the time, Jane. At the time, I was absolutely devastated.

Tell me, sometimes, and this is something that I'm really interested in, it might bore the pants off the audience, who knows, but sometimes I feel complicit in allowing someone who I know actually not to be terribly pleasant to be pleasant on our programme in order to promote their product. And they can be pretty awful, even here, until the microphone goes on. And then it's all and sunshine

and gnashers flashing at you and all the rest of it do you sometimes think about that? Do you know I'm we just

wouldn't have people like that on by and large You have had them on We have had them on I absolutely and we all know who they are but

I tend to find that what happens with me is if they come on and they're fine. And, you know, I do an interview and then afterwards I find out that they were rude to whoever gave them a cup of tea, probably Jack, or they were rude to ever put their microphone on or anything like that. Well, we would just say, no, I wouldn't have them back on again because I wouldn't have them in my house. And if I wouldn't have them in my house, I certainly wouldn't have them on my show. So would your everyday colleagues, would they have you in their house? Oh, geez, I hope so.

They may have me going out for a drink. I would like to think. I can't think of a polite way of putting this. How much longer are you going to go on? Do you know what? Well, people are watching, Jane. People could put us the same thing as me, I should say. Not at all.

Well, people are watching. And while I'm really people could ask the same thing of me, I should say. Not at all. While people are watching and while I'm really enjoying it and while I'm not going in there, because I think that when you go in there, think to yourself, I can't be bothered with this. Why would you? It's the best job in the world. But while I'm still enjoying it and people are watching, effectively, that's the answer.

I only ask because I hear you're going to be an astronaut. Well, yes, I'm doing training, astronaut training. I don't actually know that I'll ever get up there. Oh, I would love to, though. Can you imagine? Oh, I'd love to. I'd love to be on that mission to Mars. You're joking, aren't you? How many years would you be away? It doesn't matter. It'd be amazing.

Would it, though? I am concerned about this, the prospect of Lorraine Kelly in quite a closed environment. I'm not sure whether it would be... I can't see it happening. I think her personality's too big for that long, long journey to Mars. But if you've got any views on that, you can always contact Lorraine or us at BBC Women's Out on Twitter.

We always welcome your involvement, as you know. Now, this week, there have been two major reports about the way children are looked after. The National Audit Office has pointed to the growing financial pressure on English councils and their child protection services. And the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health says the care that children get in the UK depends on where they live. Well, Anne Longfield is the Children's Commissioner for England.

Why does she think so little progress has been made in some areas? I think simply there hasn't been enough positive proactive action to reduce the risks of a group of children that we know are very vulnerable. There's been an increase in children going into care and receiving child protection significantly over recent years but against the backdrop of reduced budgets now there isn't the money there to be able to put the early help in place to prevent those crises developing. So it's a very negative spiral where more and more children are falling into a very difficult position. And the government, not just the DfE, but the government overall,

aren't ahead of the game, which is what needs to be. Now, the reporter expresses concern at the increasing cost of the most serious cases. How much were predictions that the closure of Sure Start and other early interventions would cause such problems? Absolutely correct. Well, I think, you know, you're driven by short term decisions around budgets for one year, two years. And I've been a long term proponent of Sure Start. And I seriously believe that you can offer families that joined up help early, then you give them the kind of resilience and the helping hand they need to really be able to tackle problems as

they arise. Now, councils have been in a difficult position, they've had really significant cuts to their budgets. But I've always argued that, you know, it was a false economy to take away that early help. Having most councils now really been having to cut by 60% plus that amount of early help. I think now central government has to take action to rebalance that help, because local councils just so often can't do it themselves. But you see, the Department of Health told us this they said the NHS long-term plan has committed to prioritising prevention so children can live well in their communities increasing funding to give 345,000 more children and young people access to NHS funded mental health services, as well as earlier detection and cutting edge treatments for major illnesses. So that must be helpful.

So that's good. Yes. So the NHS 10 year plan with serious money behind it is a really positive step. We've worked really hard with Simon Stevens and the team. Children now have its own section, which may seem a small thing, but actually it's not been there before. And there are good targets now about actually meeting all children's mental health needs that are necessary over a 10 year period. I'd like it much quicker, but over a 10 year period. That said, that's an aspect of children's lives. And what is inconvenient to government departments, of course, is that children don't live their life in pigeonholes. They're not pupils, they're not patients, they're not, you know, even prisoners in custody. They are children growing up

and actually until we get that joined up appreciation of their needs across government and a really serious and significant plan to reduce the risk of vulnerable children, there will be probably about 20% of children who will have serious failings in what they could achieve. And, you know, those figures are significant. We're talking about children who will achieve less than half of what their peers will by 16. Now, that can't be right in a situation where we know we could help. To what extent are some children falling between the cracks? A huge amount. So there is a very vulnerable group of children, about 20%. And I produce an annual vulnerability study. And the numbers are big. I worry sometimes

about talking about the numbers because, you know, everyone gets kind of phased by some of the numbers. We're talking about 2 million children there that are living with parents with significant difficulties themselves. They're addicted to drugs or alcohol, serious mental health conditions, or indeed domestic violence in the home. And the government's own figure shows there's over a million children who are defined in need. Now, those are the children, they're often invisible until they hit the headlines, and they often fall through the cracks. We've seen big concerns about children who are excluded from schools.

We've seen real concerns about children who've been groomed into gangs. These are all the group of children who need help to get on and stay in the mainstream. How positive, though, are promises of £410 million for adult and children's social care and another 84 million to support vulnerable families across 20 councils. So I'm always going to welcome more money to help I mean it's not all about money it's about how you do but I'm always going to welcome more investment there however what we're talking about here is a seismic shift Children haven't been at the centre of debate in this government, clearly at the moment, there are lots of distractions elsewhere, but vulnerable children haven't had that centre stage debate, which I think they need. So those are real figures,

and I'm sure there will be useful things that come out of them. But what we're talking about is the potential to really invest wisely in early help for children, get them ready to start school, which we know is the most important bit, and help them, especially through those tricky adolescent years. Now, we know that these questions are devolved in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and England, and you're responsible for England. The Royal College report praises Scotland and Wales for their policies on obesity, poverty

and mental health. Northern Ireland is said to be rather poor on progress in child health. England has invested in mental health. So as Children's Commissioner for England, how much are you in contact with commissioners in other parts of the UK and all working

together? So I have counterparts in all those of the UK and all working together. So I have counterparts in all those countries and we do have regular dialogue. We meet regularly. I think what it shows most of all, first of all, that you have choices as a government. You can make change and you can do things that help improve children's lives. In Scotland, we've seen a very significant focus on poverty. We've seen a real focus on reducing serious violence and knife crime. And we're all now looking to what happened in Glasgow and how that can be replicated. In Wales, a very much an emphasis on well-being, I think, well-being within schools and public health. And those are things that, you know,

often they're not instant, but they are an expression of what's important within a country. And I think actually society in England believes that children are important enough to put them very much on the high priority. The Royal College says it wants to stop any further cuts. How realistic is that? Well, it's a tough one. I've said myself in terms of welfare reform,

which is the other part of it, and universal credit, which is adding additional hardship, that actually I would like universal credit to be halted until government can guarantee that no child will be worse off as a result. I think it is doable. But of course, with all these things, it takes will. And it takes that determination that these issues are not only as important as other issues, but more important to put them top of the list.

And clearly, that's something that I think is absolutely necessary. The Children's Commissioner for England, Anne Longfield. This email came in from Mary, who says, I worked for a children's charity for many years in a number of different roles. Over recent years, the funding was taken away from these services, and I was made redundant two years ago from the parenting support project we ran when the funding was withdrawn. During my time there, we were able to support many families with advice and help so they didn't get referred to social services. We offered parenting programmes,

social skills programmes for children aged between 8 and 13 and individual support as well. We were able to offer support to young carers and their families again without the need for social service involvement. However, many of these services are now non-existent in our area, leaving parents to struggle without the help they desperately need. With support, many families are kept out of crisis. With no services, their struggles will simply get worse. Mary, thank you for that. And if you do have personal experience of anything you hear discussed on the programme and you want to get your point of view across, please do email us via our website bbc.co.uk slash womanshour. Now, I talked this week to Mariette Lindstein, a Swedish author, and the person who's written a really interesting new thriller called Fog Island.

Now, this isn't your run-of-the-mill contemporary thriller. It's about a fictional cult based on an island off the coast of Sweden. I was myself in the Church of Scientology for 25 years. From that, of course, I drew a lot of experience and I actually escaped in 2004 under very dramatic circumstances and got out. And first I was feeling great and then I got struck by horrible nightmares. And it was always the same nightmare, being back, not being able to get out, being stuck. And I spoke to a writer who's called Lawrence Wright, and he told me that it was my responsibility to speak about this.

He said, you're the person who's worked the highest up in an organization like that in all of Sweden, and you need to do something. And I first thought that he was insensitive, but then we spoke a lot and then he said your life sounds like a thriller Mariette write a thriller and you have and I have three actually and are you feeling better I'm feeling so much better I actually saw very recently that if you write about traumas that you've gone through it's it's actually

scientifically proven that you don't not just feel better in the soul, but your blood pressure lowers and you do much better by writing about it. Is that true? Right. I didn't know that. I want to know, I suppose, what kind of person is vulnerable to something like a religious cult? I think it's exactly opposite to what you think. Is it? Because it is the cult that chooses you or the organization or whatever it is. And it's not you who choose them. In my case, I was 19.

I was very extroverted. I was bored. I had just finished school. This is all in Sweden. Yeah. I was looking for suspense and adventure and came across this church. And I think that I was exactly what they were looking for. And churches and cults and I think that I was exactly what they were looking for and churches and cults

and organizations like that they don't want people who are introverts or have bad self-confidence which is perhaps what I would have suspected exactly but but they want people that can recruit more members and therefore they pick people at least my experience was that I was picked just because of that and it took one and a half year before I was pulled in and they had all the patience to wait for that, to keep promoting to me. And during that time, you were made to feel very special, I imagine, a lot of attention.

Like the most important person in the world. Yeah, every time I spoke to somebody there, I felt like I was the most important person in the world. And the fact that you can advance, you don't have to have any education to advance. You just have to, you know, grab on to whatever opportunities are there. And yeah, I was made to feel very special. When you did get out, you were greeted not with people who were unpleasant. You'd been told that the outside world was full of deeply unpleasant people. And there are some, but on the whole, people were happy to help you. The first experience I had was the day when I escaped, I came on a bus.

I had a little backpack and I went on a bus. Is that all you had with you, just a few things in a backpack? I had nothing. I had sewn in $200 in my bra and that was all the money I had saved it because I knew I wanted to escape. And I went on this bus and I was really like I had, and my heart was pounding because I knew that they could come after me if they noticed that I was gone. And there was this bus driver and he just looked at me and he said, this bus is going to South Central. It's the most criminal area in LA. And he said, you're not going on this bus. I said, yes, I am.

And felt somebody probably coming after me. And he said, OK, in that case, I'm going to help you. And he took me several kilometers away from, you know, where he was going on his route and got me to a safe hotel. And then when I got into that hotel, the only thing I had was I memorized my current husband's phone number and was going to call him. He was the only person I knew in the US and he had given that to me.

He was also a member of the Church of Scientology. Exactly. And he had just escaped before me. And I come into the hotel and there is no phone. They don't work. The phones don't work. So I go out around the corner to 7-Eleven and there's a man standing there who's at least seven feet tall, also Afro-American. And he looks down at me and says, what are you doing here? And I said, well, I need to borrow your cell phone. And he said, yes, if you get out of here, you can borrow my cell phone. And these two people who never knew me, changed my whole viewpoint on the world in just a day, because they were so unselfish. And they just helped me without asking for anything

back. I wish I could find them today, now when I've become an author and my life has really turned around. Well, it would be lovely if you could. We need to emphasise, of course, that the Church of Scientology is absolutely adamant that it is indeed a church, so we need to make that very clear. Tell us about the central

character, because she does bear at least some resemblance to yourself, as described to me earlier, it would seem. Yeah, but it's very important the central character because I mean she does bear at least some resemblance to to yourself as described to me earlier yeah but it's very important to to understand that these characters are my characters that I created many people think that Sophia the main character is a reflection on myself but she actually isn't she's pretty ordinary normal girl who gets drawn into this cult out on the island and I must say that I was wilder and more crazy than her. But I felt when I wrote it that I have to make,

people must understand that a lot of the people that worked there were totally ordinary, intelligent people. And therefore, I wanted to make them more ordinary. And then there's a character who is just a cult leader. His name is Franz Oswald. And he, many people think that he maybe is based on one of the characters or the persons that I knew, but he really isn't. Except that you can often say that a person who has psychopathic or, you know, bad sadist or narcissist, they have common traits. I wrote my first book

2015, and the letters started to pour in immediately, letters, emails, whatever. And they said things like, oh, France Oswald reminds me of my boss. What do I do? Or I've been in an abusive relationship. It reminds me of your book. What do I do? I mean, the most touching thing I heard was from a girl who was actually dying in anorexia and wrote me and said, I read your book and I decided to fight my illness as a cult and she actually survived and she wrote me afterwards and I went oh my god this is not just about one

organization or cults even or anything you wanted to be yeah and sect mentality or manipulation brainwash all these subjects that I don't think there's anybody who hasn't been knowing somebody who has been like that. The Swedish author Mariette Lindstein and her book is called Fog Island. Now next week on Woman's Hour, starting on Monday, we're discussing feeding your baby. It's not the classic breast versus bottle, but a conversation that we hope will start people thinking about why women make the decisions they do about feeding their babies. And it all starts Monday morning, just after 10 o'clock. And there's a phone in on that subject coming up on Wednesday of next week as well.

Now, this week, I talked to the very impressive Jessica Eaton, who's the founder of an organisation called Victim Focus. This was set up because she felt that victims of sexual abuse are not always getting the right help. She's been researching the psychology of sexual violence for the best part of a decade and her conclusion is that many of those supposed to help victims have in some cases been making things worse. She now trains groups of professionals who deal with victims of child sexual abuse. The research is showing at the moment that victim blaming seems to be increasing. So over the years, the more studies we're doing with the general public and with professionals, including my own

research, we're looking at maybe between 30 up to 66% of them blame victims of sexual violence, even child sexual exploitation. So even children are being blamed for being sexually abused by adults. What led you to found this organisation? Was there something that just made you think, I can't let this go anymore? Yes, actually. So I was working in sexual violence already. I was a national manager in training and research in child sexual exploitation and anti-human trafficking. And I just noticed that there were these really pervasive messages about those children that were getting into training. So there's something wrong with the child and that's why they're being sexually abused or there's something wrong with the parents and that's why it's happening to them. Or it was because the child, you know, the girl was wearing

a crop top and she puts herself out there that's why she was trafficked around Birmingham and I was like sort of listening to this all over the country and thinking how have these myths and stereotypes seeped into children's practice okay maybe I was optimistic because so much progress has been made in my lifetime because this problem was going on it's been going on forever then we began to acknowledge it and talk about in public now we've tried to intervene and help but from what you're saying we've got the help wrong i think the help has been based on victim blaming culture so we're always looking for something wrong with the child so if we're talking about sexual exploitation of children sexual sexual abuse within families, the way that the current interventions and even the risk

assessments that police and social care are using, they're looking for what is wrong with the child or what's wrong with the family that led to that child being abused by somebody. You're right, the awareness has gone up, the public are talking about it, it's in the media, and yet the practice is still seeking, you know, what is it about this child? You know, what could this child have done differently? Why didn't this child tell us sooner? And that's where our practice is right now. I don't feel like that's moved. Who is it that you're training? Everybody, so social care, police, NHS, psychologists, nurses, doctors, charities, private care companies and care homes.

It's really, really broad. So I'm really trying to make as big impact as possible to try and break down these myths and stereotypes that they hold about children who are being sexually abused. Can you give me a cast iron example of something either somebody said or did that really worried you about their ignorance, actually? Honestly, it probably happens once a day. Like someone, yeah, it's really common, you know. So one of them last year was a police sergeant that was working in child sexual exploitation. And he was listening to me give this sort of talk. I'm sort of what I'm saying now about, you know,

victim blaming of children. And he put his hand up and said, you know, sorry, I'm going to have to stop you. I disagree with you. And I sort of, I always provide an open space, like have your opinion. Let's talk about it. Let's critique it as a group.

And he said, you know, some girls, some kids are just easy. And I was like, sorry? And he said, you know, I worked on this case are just easy. And I was like, sorry? And he said, you know, I worked on this case of a 12-year-old girl who had slept with every professional in the care home. And I was like, she slept with her, she's 12. So what you're saying to me is that the care home staff were sexually abusing her. And he was like, no, no, no, no.

She was really promiscuous. She just put herself out there all the time. And she was just was just he used swear words I'm not going to do that on the radio so and he was really sort of saying that she was easy and she was putting it about and the the care home you know she was sleeping with the care home staff I gave him two opportunities to withdraw that statement in my training and he refused to and so I kicked him out. And the reaction from everybody else in the room? People said you know that they agreed and that they were really shocked that he held those views and then they began worrying about what cases is he overseeing? Yeah well clearly but you say something of that nature happens pretty regularly. Yeah absolutely

so sometimes you can pick it out and it's a value that that professional holds so maybe it's a youth worker or social worker or probation officer that holds a value so maybe they put their hand up and say well I thought it was obvious that if teenage girls are going to go around with a load of makeup on they're going to get raped so that's a value thing that's sexism that's misogyny that's something they've they've absorbed over a period of time but sometimes it's bad training and that's the bits that I'm trying to pick apart. So sometimes someone will put their hand up and go, but I was trained the other year that, you know, children who are abused go on to abuse other children.

They grow up to be rapists. I'm like, who said that to you? So training is obviously absolutely vital, but it has to be the right training. And it does sound as though there's a lot of confusion out there. And we don't know what kind of training professionals are getting. And actually, increasingly, I think there's real concern that lots of them aren't getting any training at all because of budgets being cut. Yeah, that's definitely one of the reasons I set up the

Victim Focus Academy was that, you know, I've been doing this now, as you said, just under 10 years, and more and more social workers, police, come up to me at the end of speeches and sessions and say, you are the first person that's trained us in this in the last six years or seven years, and, like, why have I not had this training before? So, you know, when I speak to local authorities, so obviously I still work for local authorities,

some local authorities do invest quite well in training, others don't, same with police forces, same with charities, private care companies and stuff but you know some of it is really basic so say for example you have a social worker that's holding 37 child abuse cases and they've had half a day of training in the last six years that's not good enough jessica eaton and we had this anonymous email from a police officer who says that they manage convicted sex offenders in the community, and they go on, I'm constantly having to battle the myth that children who are abused go on to abuse themselves. Fortunately, I have had some excellent training with more to come this year. Regarding child sexual exploitation, over recent years there's been a lot of focus on the troubled child with relatively little focus on the abusers. However, this has now started to

change. MyForce has pioneered the controversial C5 warning notice which gives potential abusers fair notice that the police and authorities have identified them as a sexual risk to children and to stop their behaviour. It's a really useful tool and it's a shame there's been quite a lot of negativity from the media and politicians about them. We have an entire unit dedicated to tackling child sexual exploitation in partnership with other agencies. I wonder whether it might be worth us on the programme exploring the idea of these C5 warning notices, because I take the listener's point that there is a certain amount of controversy about them, but maybe that's something we could do

in the coming weeks. But thanks to that listener for contacting us. Now, you probably know that urinary incontinence is likely to affect 50% of women during the course of their lifetime. And this week, the hashtag pelvic floor challenge was launched. Elaine Miller is a physiotherapist who works handily alongside that as a stand up comedian. And Wendy Powell is the woman behind hashtag pelvic floor challenge. Pelvic floor weakness and urinary incontinence is an issue that's just not being talked about. If it is being talked about, it's being joked about as if we're just supposed to put up with it and it's just the way things are, or it's not being discussed at all,

not with our doctors, not even with partners or friends. So it's to get the conversation started and to help women to understand that there is something that we can do and we don't have to just put up with this. Elaine, why is this a subject that comes up time and time again? I mean, we've discussed it before on the programme, I've discussed it a number of times, and yet it continues to plague us. Well, because it's so common, I think the stats are really damning. It's one in three women will wet themselves if they laugh or cough or jump. And there's a myth that this is just part of life. It doesn't matter if you've had kids, it doesn't matter if you've had kids

it doesn't matter how old you are your pelvic floor can always be improved with treatment and with doing your pelvic floor exercises. Now Wendy a six minute video of exercises is being made available for free endorsed by the NHS what sort of exercises are in it? So these exercises is, as you say, a free six minute video we've put together. It's at mydoctorsentme.co.uk. And they are exercises that start with the foundations, because very often what the problem is, is that women are jumping to crunches or planks or more intensive exercise, and they haven't literally reconnected with their pelvic floor. So we start with breathing and reconnection with the whole of the core system or your pelvic floor, your stomach exercises, all of that. And then kind of gradually moving forward to incorporating that into actual exercises.

Now, Elaine, I seem to remember you have a somewhat straightforward saying to remind us of the need for exercise. What is it? We won't pee with a 10-10-3. So to, as Wendy says, if you're doing your pelvic floor exercises, you need to start from the very, very beginning. And lots of women aren't even sure where their pelvic floor is and what it does.

Go on then, explain. Where is it? What does it do? If you imagine a pelvis, like you would see in a Halloween outfit, it's got a hole at the bottom. It's just a circle of bone and your pelvic floor fills in the hole at the bottom. So it's a series of muscles that hold your guts up. They stop your liver from falling out, which is generally quite a useful thing. And they've got an important role in your continence, so they keep all your holes shut

when you want them to be shut, and they have to be able to relax to let pee or poo or gas out, or to let anything in that you want to go in. They're a responsive set of muscles. It's not all about getting them to be tighter and stronger. They have to be able to relax as well.

Give us the exercise. Tell us exactly what we should be doing and we will all sit here and do it, won't we? The whole nation should be clenching. So to get the muscles to work, you have to first of all sort out your breath, like Wendy says. They move up and down as you breathe, so if you sigh out, it's much easier to get your pelvic floor to contract so first of all take a deep breath in and then sigh out and then imagine that you're trying to hold in a fart there's lots of evidence that this is the best command this is science what you feel in your bum is a squeeze and a lift when you imagine that you're trying to hold something in and that's your work in your

pelvic floor so we get you to take a deep breath in sigh out squeeze and lift and hold it for a count of 10 seconds but you've got to keep breathing at the same time and that's the tricky bit yeah don't forget to breathe that's not good for you if you forget to breathe and then you have to do 10 quick flicks so that's like a quick contraction and then relax and you do 10 of those in the row because your pelvic floor has to have strength to so that you can hold on if you're needing to go for a pee and there's nowhere to go but it also has to contract quickly if you laugh or cough or sneeze to support the neck of your bladder. Wendy how often would you say that we've both been sitting here trying to breathe and do the exercises how often do you reckon they should be done? We need to be doing it daily really I often compare it to cleaning your teeth it's not like we clean our teeth and

then go okay that's me done my teeth are clean don't need to do that again it's something that we need to do daily and keep doing throughout our lives literally we're talking about a few minutes every day and just taking that time to reconnect with the breath and how the breath coordinates with those muscles. It's remembering to relax too. It's not just squeeze, squeeze, squeeze. We don't want to be on all the time, tight all the time.

It needs to be up to let go. What's the minimum, Elaine, you would say you can get away with? Well, the research says that you should do a hold for 10, 10 quick flicks three times a day and if you do that for about three or four months then a massive number of women will be dry in that period of time about 80 percent 70 to 80 percent and it's the adherence of like Wendy's saying you have to do it regularly but clinically speaking what I see is that if women are doing nothing and they start doing something then they will see an improvement we don't actually know what the

optimal level of of exercise is at the moment because they just haven't done the work if you've got a smartphone you can set reminders there's apps you can get and squeezy is NHS and dorsen is very good it's just finding something that will remind you to do your exercises. Wendy how useful do you reckon pelvic floor exercises are to men because I mean they haven't gone through what I always assumed had caused it in so many women having a vaginal delivery. Yeah yeah it's it's important for everyone for women regardless of mode of delivery or even if they've had babies as they get older so it's very important for everyone but men too I mean a great cue for men but if you imagine that you're walking into a super cold ocean and you're trying to suck everything up out the way it's if men do that

at the same time as breathing out like Elaine says it works much better to breathe out as you contract but yeah it's important for all of us to be doing. Elaine, just one other point about the actual exercises. How do we know we're doing them properly? How should it feel? So if you have a look, you can see the tissue change. You can see your vagina sort of winking at you if you do your pelvic floor contraction while you're looking in a mirror. And if you pop something in there to give it a squeeze, you can get some biofeedback. You could use your own finger or get a willing volunteer.

If you're absolutely not sure, then come to physio, come for a referral, and we can show you exactly what you're supposed to be doing. Elaine Miller, physiotherapist and stand-up comedian, and Wendy Powell. Here's Jane via email. My husband has had prostate cancer surgery and pelvic floor exercises have made a real difference with his recovery.

It's also helped me to get into the routine of doing pelvic floor exercises myself. Now I'm in my mid-50s. Well done for bringing it to the attention of women and in turn, we do have the responsibility to remind our partners to join in with the exercise. Debbie, a midwife told me, postnatal, to do pelvic floor exercises every time I'm stuck at a red light. I still do it 30 years later, and touch wood, it seems to have worked.

Debbie, if the situation changes, you know who to speak to. At BBC Women's Hour. Now, to the actress Frida Pinto, who was on Woman's Hour this week, talking about her new film, Love, Sonia, which is based on a true story of a young Indian village girl, Sonia, whose sister is sold into a brothel in Mumbai. Sonia follows her sister and is shipped off to Hong Kong in a container with a group of other young women,

then to America as part of the global sex trafficking trade. The film ends with the stark information that 4.5 million people globally are victims of sex trafficking. Frida plays Rashmi, who Sonia meets in the Mumbai brothel. Jenny asked her how common it would be for a poverty-stricken father to sell his daughter as Sonia's sister is sold. Well, not uncommon, but also not just because this film, you know,

portrays that as our central story, the beginning of Sonia's, well, tragedy and how her life is completely overturned by the events in this film. I wouldn't say that every poverty-stricken father would subject his daughter to that. There are other things that could happen in a situation like that. A lot of times in a country like India, girls are not even valued, you know, so they're not even born. Before they're born, they're even killed because parents don't

know how they're going to raise their kid and then collect the money for the dowry and then you know marry off the daughter i wouldn't say this is the only thing that happens it's not uncommon but there are various different things that happen happen to young girls why were you keen to get involved in the film jane i read the script right after Slumdog Millionaire. And Tabrez presented this script to me because he wanted my help to help him find a Sonia for this film. So he asked me if I'd read the various parts. And upon reading the script, I think the first thing that struck me was that it was possibly a very exaggerated brutality for cinematic effect. And I wanted to ask him if this was at all true or if he had

just made this up. And that began a very different journey for me. I was quickly informed of how little I knew in life and how words like sex trafficking and human trafficking for me and for many other people are just words, you know, that we don't fully understand what that world really entails. And when I read the various parts, I read Madhuri and Preeti and Rashmi. There was something electrifying about Rashmi. What was it about her? It was very different from Latika. Sonia meets her in the brothel are. It's not black or white. It's not moral or immoral or straight up labels as prostitute and whore.

You know, there are damages. There's betrayal, which is the number one factor. I remember meeting one of the women who was going to inform my emotional trajectory for this film, for this project. And I'd asked her if she had the opportunity where she fell in love with someone, if she would choose a different life for herself. And she told me that love only existed in my world and not in hers, because in hers only betrayal did. And there is a constant betrayal from loved ones. There is no way of going back once girls are sold into the trade because their families have completely rejected them. There's a shame and guilt that they are made, forced to carry,

that has nothing to do with any decision that they've made. Now we see girls transported like objects in a container to Hong Kong and then to Los Angeles. What evidence is there of that happening in a major way? Oh, that is also very true, which is why, you know, you're asking me all the questions I asked to Braith 10 years ago because I couldn't believe it myself. Like I said, I thought it was a very exaggerated form. That is absolutely very true. And it's impossible for any of the cast members or maybe people once they watch the film as well to ever see a container in the same way again, because you started questioning how much is this happening under our noses and we're completely oblivious and ignorant to what's actually happening around us.

And in America, Sonia is sent elegantly dressed for a night to the home with a swimming pool of a very wealthy man. What's been made of the revelation that there are men who do such a thing? The truth is, women are bought and sold in this trade, and they're the ones who carry the label of being immoral or prostitutes and whores and sex workers. But it's actually the men who are really the ones demanding and the end users, you know, so it's actually a trade that is perpetuated by men and the demand is also created by men. I've been told that in everyone's lifetime, including yours, we've all been at a party or at a bar or a hotel or a restaurant or whatever it might be, where we have been in a situation where there was a girl who was being actively

trafficked in that very moment, or a trafficked girl was servicing a client, and we've been there. Now, India has the highest number of sex-trafficked victims in the world. And when I was watching the film, I remember how other people have told me how difficult it was to make controversial issues in India, in the film industry. Watching this one, I mean, it pulls absolutely no punches. And I wondered, what's been the response to this in India? It's been a very mixed response. When the film came out last September, I think it was very difficult for the Indian audience to digest this as a fact, you know, a fact that actually this modern day slavery is rampant in this country and something that we've not talked about for a very, very long time. They called it a dark film.

And my only response to that is how do you make a dark matter light? You know, you can't. It is exactly what it is. The men found it extremely difficult to digest. But despite the film not doing particularly well in India, there have been a lot of young inspired women who've come forward and either confided in the cast members regarding an incident that happened with them, something that they faced, or the fact that they want to come out and do something about it. How much is it being discussed openly in India?

I mean, you know, you're living in America a lot of the time now, Me Too, Equal Page, Gender Equality, very high on the agenda. How high on the agenda are they at home for you? India is very much having its own MeToo movement. It's probably not as organized and as big as the movement in the U.S., but the world over the MeToo movement has hit home, including China. And so it is being discussed. However, there are patriarchal norms and there is a misogyny that is very deep-seated in the mindset. And so that needs to be tackled for an open conversation to actually take place.

Frida Pinto on Woman's Hour this week and Love, Sonia is the name of that film. So to why in this enlightened age, apparently, do so few women in heterosexual relationships propose to their partners? Bella Mackey did propose to her now husband, the Radio 1 Breakfast presenter, Greg James. She's also the author of Jog On, about how running saved her life. And we talked too to Jade Beer, editor-in-chief of Brides magazine and the author of The Almost Wife. So first up, here's Jade. Why does she think so few women propose? I think it's probably several of the reasons you'd naturally expect that they have a sort of fear of rejection. They have a kind of crisis of confidence that they think they've really

wildly misjudged the situation. And they're about to declare undying love to a man who's really not thinking wedding bells at all. But I also think they are slightly worried from the things that women say to me that a proposal from them is not necessarily going to be taken seriously. And I've kind of seen that myself play out. Have you? Yeah, we hosted a big event a while ago where we kind of actively went out to seek women to propose. It was really hard to find them.

We did a nationwide call-out, bearing in mind we've got something like 4 million followers across our social channels. Because even people who aren't getting married read Brides magazine. Yeah, absolutely. So of all of those people that that message would have been put in front of, we had 25 women apply to propose. It's quite troubling, actually, this.

And we put this out to our Instagram. Follow us on Instagram, by the way, if you don't already, at BBC Women's Hour. Our quite troubling actually this and we put this out to our instagram follow us on instagram by the way if you don't already at bbc women's hour our instagram audience this is interesting um i just raised the subject for discussion as i was pregnant with our son at the time and there were a lot of practical reasons i wanted us to be married before he arrived four months later we were married our son arrived two months after that so a positive outcome there i want you to tell me be, why you proposed to your husband. Well, mine was a bit of a unique situation in that he was about to climb some mountains

and it was the week of Beast from the East and suddenly all the papers were full of, you know, do not go out of your house, do not leave, you know, it's dangerous, the whole country is dangerous. And so we went out for dinner the night before he left and I suddenly just thought, oh, God, he's going to die. And I finally found this nice chap and he's going to die. So I had a glass of wine and then obviously got a bit emotional.

So it wasn't planned. I just thought I should really lock this down in case he dies so that, you know, so that I'm not like one of the girlfriends at the funeral. It was a bit like that. The grieving fiance. The main one. Yeah. No, I mean, I do think that's very sound, actually,

very sound thinking. I like the cut of your jib. Another listener, both my fiancé and I believe in equal rights, so we thought we both have the right to propose to each other. Last night we both proposed at different times and we both have an engagement ring. I'm not quite sure how the logistics of that would work.

So one proposes at 20 past seven, the other one... Yeah, someone still did it first. Yeah, somebody got in first. Both wearing engagement rings? What do you think of that? I think that's great. I mean, I should have given him one probably, just by convention, but I didn't. So you didn't? I didn't. He actually got me one in the end.

Okay. Is there a rule, Jade, about engagement rings and men? No, there's no rule. These things are so relaxed now, I think you can kind of do it however you want to do it. But they're not that relaxed because of the reluctance illustrated in the work you've been doing of women to actually do it. There are very few Bellas out there. I think it's this notion that it won't be taken seriously, I think, which stops a lot of them from doing it. And I think they do stops a lot of them from doing it. And I think they do everything but ask the question. So a woman now will have kind of no qualms about setting down a lot of the things that she wants at her wedding.

She'll have possibly chosen the venue. She'll have in mind the women she wants to kind of be her bridesmaids. She'll have all of those things. She'll know the kind of ring she wants to be proposed to with with but she will not actually go the whole sort of hog and ask the question in your experiment then with those women you did recruit what happened so we had i think it was 12 women that actually went through with it and they proposed to their men it was a really very very nerve-wracking thing to sit through i was in the room with them all while they were doing it but i was hidden and i would say the majority of the men afterwards I spoke to all

of the men afterwards and the majority of them said things like oh I'm gonna have to do it myself now to make it real and I should have been doing this well Bella let's lob that one over to you make it real I mean the thing is to me it just feels like it feels like sexism in that it's almost like we assume that women are the ones that want to get married and that men are the ones that will be trapped by it. And therefore, it's not valid if women ask men because it might not be genuine and real enough. The man asking is almost like he loves me enough that he will marry me. And so the idea that a woman does it is a bit like, oh, you know, like when I did it, the Daily Mail picked up on it. And there were lots of comments saying that I was desperate and, you know, pathetic and, you know like when I did it the Daily Mail picked up on it and there were

lots of comments saying that I was desperate and you know pathetic and you know didn't value myself because like a man you wanted to get married which is why you'd proposed yeah and but the comments were from women not from men they were from women okay well that's really disheartening why do you think women would say and think that I guess because people might think it's demeaning to beg someone to marry you, but of course the role's reversed and it's fine. Well, we've had guys looking at our Twitter feed here, Anne, Carly, Emma and Hazel all tweet basically to say

they have proposed very happy results in all three cases. Fantastic. I'm really disturbed by how reluctant women still are to embrace the notion. Yeah, they are. Sometimes I find it quite surprising how traditional a lot of young women are. You know, I meet a lot of women in their sort of 20s and early 30s who do still they sort of do hang on to this notion that it is his job to do it. And I think part of that is a sense that he will have the mickey taken out of him okay if they sort of get yeah that they he will be trumped you know and that that kind of

one thing so many wedding traditions are sort of falling by the wayside and that this one thing that he in their minds should hang on to he then sort of gets usurped that's the sort of feeling that a lot of them do express. Jade Beer and Bella Mackey, we had some very funny emails and contributions from you on this. Here are a couple of highlights. Actually, Mark makes an important point. Nobody mentioned money. In the past, when women were entirely financially dependent on men,

men more or less had to propose as they had to be able to financially support a family. I don't know how explicit this thought is today but I think it might be gnawing away at the back of women's minds. If I ask him to marry me and then we have children is he willing to financially support us? Interesting. Mark does go on of course there are women who are breadwinners but I'm willing to bet that at least in most cases this thought does exist in the mind of women as they think they might want to stay at home with their children, if only for a shortish period. Thanks for that, Mark. And from Janet, I love this. After living together for many years, I decided to propose to my partner on a leap year.

I was in LA with friends at the time. And so they all huddled round the phone with me. You can imagine the excitement in the room, can't you? Will you marry me? I said to Neil as soon as he answered the phone. He replied, Is that you, Janet? And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why women and men will always be

very different. How romantic. But by the way, Janet does explain that they have been together for 39 years and they did eventually get married. So I'm glad to hear it. Now, next week, don't forget, Monday morning, we start off a conversation about feeding babies.

Why women do it the way they do it. Who's influenced them. The difficulties or not of the decision they made. How other people made them feel about whatever decision they came to. And on Monday's programme, you'll hear from Kat Cowan, who is one of our colleagues. She works at BBC Radio Sheffield

and she was very keen to look at this issue after giving birth to her son in March. She's going to be joining me and sharing her experience. If this is you, or it's about to be you, or it's been you at any time, I guarantee you'll want to hear it. That's two minutes past ten, live on Radio 4 on Monday morning.

Have a very good weekend. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.