Woman's Hour - Losing a friend to suicide, Period pants, The release of Loujain al-Hathloul

Episode Date: February 15, 2021

Loujain al-Hathloul, the Saudi women's rights activist, has just been released from prison after spending nearly three years in prison. Instrumental in the movement to allow women to drive in the kingdom, she was imprisoned in 2018, just weeks before the ban was lifted. We speak to her sister Lina who has led the campaign to free Loujain for the last three years. Why are period pants still being taxed and not classed as a sanitary product? With Ruby Raut, founder of WUKA period pants and Sarah Olney MP, who's leading an early day motion to remove the 20% tax. How do we cope with the grief of losing a friend to suicide? It has been exactly one year since TV presenter Caroline Flack took her own life. Caroline stood down as presenter of Love Island in 2019 after she was charged of assaulting her boyfriend. She pleaded not guilty, and was due to stand trial in March. Emma speaks to her close friend Ophelia Lovibond and to Sarah Bates from the charity, Support After Suicide. Christine Keeler: the woman who nearly brought down the government in the 60s. She had an affair with Secretary of State for War, John Profumo, when she was just 19. In an unconnected court case, but one which is also linked in a complicated saga, she ended up being sentenced to nine months in prison. Seymour now wants a pardon for his mother. Next month he'll start court proceedings.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Emma Barnett here. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. Today we finally have an interview for you that we promised last week but due to technical difficulties was delayed. We're going to hear from Blue Sanford, one of the women protesting against HS2

by living in the tunnels below Euston Square. She's cold, determined and living off beans. But my question to you today is regarding another one of our interviews. A bit later in the programme, I'll be joined by the actor Ophelia Lovibond. She was one of the best friends of Caroline Flack, who died a year ago to the day. What I wanted to ask you is how you have coped specifically after the death of a friend. It is different to a family member. There can also be different feelings, different techniques. Perhaps you could share how you coped and how you have been coping or how you are coping at the moment. You can do so by texting Women's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard

message rate. Of course, check your network provider for those exact costs. Or on social media, if you prefer to get in touch with us, it's BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website. But first today, let's talk about what happened last week when Lujain Al-Hathloul, a high-profile Saudi women's rights activist, was released from prison after spending nearly three years in there. A key activist fighting to get women the right to finally be allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia, she was imprisoned in May 2018 with a number of other female and male activists

just weeks before that driving ban was lifted. The Saudi leadership say she was jailed because of her contacts with foreign diplomats, media and other organisations, not for her activism. But for many, Loujain has become the face of reform in the kingdom, a symbol of Saudi Arabia's crackdown on any form of protest, and her case has gained global prominence. Her outspoken family with a persistent campaign and the support of human rights groups have kept the spotlight firmly on her. I'm now joined by her sister, Lina, who's currently based in Brussels for Lina's first UK interview since her sister was released. Lina, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you very much. And I mean this in the politest possible way, but why are we not talking to your sister,

but talking to you as delighted as we are to have you with us? Well, actually, it's because she's forbidden from talking to journalists. She's forbidden from talking about her experience in prison. And she's basically forbidden from being public now. So she's released from prison, but not free. Exactly. So she's really far from being free. She's released from prison. but not free. Exactly. So she's really far from being free. She's released from prison. She's on a travel ban. Her trial is still ongoing.

She's forbidden from talking about her experience. And I mean, she is, of course, still terrified from her experience. And I don't think today we can say that she's free. How was it when she was released? Because you hadn't spoken to her for a long time. Yeah, I mean, of course, it was very relieving for us to finally see her, to finally hear her voice. But again, as I said, we have no certainty

and we don't know what the Saudi government can do to Loujain now. So I won't say that we're totally happy with the case, especially given that waves of arrests are still ongoing in Saudi Arabia and that the regime has not changed towards activists. And it's probably because Loujain is one of the most prominent ones that they have released her because of international pressure. So I will say that we are far from being fully happy about Loujain's release. We will continue to fight for her unconditional release and to be

able to see her out of Saudi Arabia as well. We did contact the Saudi embassy for a statement, but we were unable to get a response. But as I said in my introduction, the Saudi leadership say she was jailed because of her contacts with foreign diplomats, media and other organisations, not for her activism. But when she was put into prison, that ban on driving that, you know, some people still can't believe women were not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia until relatively recently, it was lifted. So on the surface, that doesn't make any sense. What is your reading of that? Yeah, of course, I think it didn't make sense to anyone at the very beginning. But the more time passed and the more we started to understand who the new crown prince who came to power is,

Mohammed bin Salman, known as MBS. So when MBS came to power, he decided that he would lift the ban on the women driving, etc. And we really thought that he was a reformer. And then the more time passed, the more we understood that he transformed Saudi Arabia into a police state and that any kind of dissent or reform was going to be cracked down, basically. And so because the campaign was huge in Saudi Arabia for women to drive, and Loujain was one of the leaders, it had to happen.

Leaders in Saudi Arabia had to give this right. But Crown Prince MBS took this merit, took the credit of all the activism of the Saudi people. And then he made it clear to the Saudi people that whoever tries to change things and whoever tries to demand for the rights will have Loujain and the other activists' faith. So I think now it's nothing, we understand basically the technique is to give some rights, but to crack down on the people who ask for it so that no one asks for anything else now. Because we should say not all of the activists are free

that she went to prison with. No, no, no. There are so many others still in prison, yeah. And are you still fighting? And is she going to be able to fight in the ways that she can to try and get them free? I mean, for now, Loujain, I think, is silenced and they don't want her to be vocal and active. So I think that only people outside of Saudi Arabia are able to fight for

the release of other prisoners. And on that point, you mentioned international pressure. How important has the change of personnel been, or perhaps you can't say yet, in the White House? I mean, we have seen it, you know. Again, you know, in Saudi Arabia now, it's just impossible to get in touch with the government directly. They just ignore the people. They don't want to hear anything. So the only way to make Saudi Arabia's government act and change is by international pressure. And we have seen it under, for example, Trump's administration. Trump himself said that he saved MBS from all his crimes. So and then we see it and it's a fact. I'm not, you know, it's not even an analysis. It's a fact that when Joe

Biden came to, when he became president, it's only a couple of days later that Loujain got released. And Joe Biden also praised this decision. So I think that it's quite clear that, of course, international pressure works. I suppose in the British relationship with Saudi Arabia, the selling of arms has continued to Saudi Arabia. How important do you think, if any, the UK's role could be as well? Of course, I think the UK is one of the most important allies of Saudi Arabia. And I do think they have, the UK has leverage. And I do think it's now a duty of the UK to demand Loujain's unconditional freedom. And also, I think it's important to note that the UK was in Loujain's charges. So one of her crimes was to be in contact with UK diplomats.

So how does Saudi Arabia consider this as a crime? So is the UK an enemy state? So I think the UK has to make it clear to Saudi Arabia that being in contact with them is not a crime and that activism is not terrorism and that they should speak up on behalf of all the prisoners that ask for their release. Have the family heard anything from our foreign secretary, from Dominic Raab. Have you heard anything from any of our cabinet ministers on this? Not as much as we would like. Can I ask how Lujain is now after being in prison for so long and how she was treated in prison?

So Lujain now, of course, she's still the very strong, resilient, optimistic person she was before prison. But of course, I think I don't think she she will ever be the same woman again, because in prison for four months, she was electrocuted, waterboarded, flogged, sexually harassed, you know, belittled by people who are the most important people of Saudi Arabia. I mean, one of the people who were ordering the torture is Saud al-Qahtani, who is our Crown Prince's right-hand man. So the highest leaders of the country were physically present to torture Loujain. And I don't think this is something she will ever forget. She won't forgive as well. And she's still seeking justice and asking for a real investigation regarding the torture she endured.

Can I ask on a personal note? there's a lot of information there. And I'll say again, we did try and contact Saudi Arabia through the embassy, the Saudi embassy for a statement, but unable to get a response on any of this. What was it like to talk to her as her sister in that to see her again, you know, it felt like a dream. I couldn't really realize it was real. And, you know, the more I talk to her, the more time passes, the more I realize it. And the more I'm saddened about everything that's happened to her. And it just makes me want to fight even more for her unconditional release and for all the other prisoners who are still today going through everything she has been through.

And, you know, Lujain's release is basically to whitewash everything else that is happening in Saudi Arabia. It's because she's one of the most prominent activists that they basically had to release her. And she's still not free. And we have to insist on this. Loujain is not free.

And she's just a symbol of a thousand other prisoners of conscience. And we have to keep on fighting for the rest as well. Just a word, if you can, on how it is to be a woman in Saudi Arabia today. What would you say it's like in terms of women's rights? Being a woman today is hell if your father is making you live hell. And it can be paradise if your male guardian allows you to have rights. So it really depends on if your male guardian allows you to have rights. So it really depends on who your male guardian is. And this is the most problematic thing,

is that the West doesn't hear the real stories because since our Crown Prince MBS said that he is empowering women, etc., what people don't see is the reality inside of the country is that the male guardianship system is still present. The care homes, which are basically prisons for women who are abused, they go to prison. So all this reality is not seen and it is not talked about in the West because our government and our media wants the West to think that it's changing,

but it's not changing. It's still a living hell for women who don't have supportive families. And I think that a real investigation and real research has to be made before talking about Saudi Arabia's so-called reforms. Lina, thank you very much for talking to us and giving us some insights there, which, as you say, can be difficult to glean. Lina, the sister of Lujain al-Hathlal, who was released from prison, but as her family would put it, not yet freed.

And they're looking for that unconditional release. And I should also say that the Saudi regime in the past have denied those accusations, those allegations of torture, which you were just hearing from Lina there about the experience of her sister. Now, on January 1st this year, the so-called tampon tax was abolished. Cue some cautious celebration, because while it meant that most sanitary products were finally tax-free, it didn't mean all. Period pants, knickers that you can free bleed into with a specially designed super absorbent gusset, despite being designed and expressly used for menstruation, are not included because according to the Treasury, they're clothing. This means that this eco-friendly option carry a 20% VAT levy, which makes them a more expensive option than your standard disposable tampon or pad.

I'm joined now by Ruby Rout, the founder of Wooka Period Pants, and the Liberal Democrat MP Sarah Olney, who's been trying to drum up cross-party support to add period pants to the tax-free list. Ruby, if I may start with you. Good morning. I've tried to explain them there. Period pants, a brief description. What are they and who's wearing them? Morning, Emma. Period pants, they look like your ordinary underwear, but they have got inbuilt gusset in it where the blood goes in, it absorbs. Underneath there is a leak-proof layer that doesn't let it leak out. So it's a menstrual product. And they are for anyone who has periods.

So everyone through, I understand that side of things. The issue then with the tax is you're obviously a business owner in this area. What's your view of that? So as a business, I don't think it affects that much. But as a woman, it really affects me because we are still paying for our periods to the government, you know, and that shouldn't be the case. And especially a sustainable one. We are having a COP26 end of this year in Scotland where all business, all people are moving towards sustainable goals and government not acknowledging the fact that these

are sustainable products means we are just going backwards. Are you surprised they've not been included? I was in the beginning obviously when I first proposed this to the HMRC that these are period pants I didn't have much evidence to show them but then I went a year back later to say that, look, I've got tons of evidence. We are in the supermarket in the same aisle as Tampons and Pants in St. Spree's. And the government is actually reaching out to us to provide the period pants as the period dignity programme.

Right, so is that sort of like one arm of the government not knowing what necessarily the other arm is doing? Because we should say we did approach the Treasury and a Treasury spokesperson said, we're committed to making sanitary products affordable and available to all women. That's why we've delivered on our promise to scrap the tampon tax, sanitary products, pads, tampons, reusable menstrual products should be affordable, readily available. So it's right that we do not charge VAT while we have also rolled out the free sanitary products in schools colleges and hospitals to continue our fight to end period poverty once and for all with that statement good time to bring in Sarah Olney from the Liberal Democrats you're an MP but also a trained

accountant so that's quite helpful on this front and I suppose could it just be an oversight? And I think it's just that the Treasury are a little bit behind the times on this front. I suppose, could it just be an oversight? I think it's just that the Treasury are a little bit behind the times on this. I mean, I looked up what the VAT notice actually says, and it still refers to looped pads and belts. Now, I mean, I've been buying sanitary products and tampons and towels for about 30 years. I've never seen such a product on the shelves in my whole time. That's a very old-fashioned view of what menstrual products are. And, I mean, they do now include what we call keepers so that, you know, there is, you know, new sustainable, you know, types of menstrual product included. But, I mean, a lot of women find those quite inaccessible. And I just really want to see the market for reusable, sustainable products really broadened. And that's why I'm really keen to see the period pants being able to be sold VAP-free alongside other menstrual products.

Have you been working with MPs across parties on this? Yes, I got nearly 40 signatures on my cross-party letter from Labour, from SNP, from Green Party. So and the response I had was pretty much similar to yours, except that what they were saying was that they really feel that period pants should be classified as clothing, and they didn't want to see a distinction between different kinds of clothing. Now, to me, that's pretty much a typical Treasury response. They obviously don't want to lose a tax take. And they don't want to do anything that's, you know, they don't want to create unfair competition between different parts of the market. But I don't see why we can't have a product that's clearly a menstrual product marketed as such.

And as Ruby said, stocked alongside the tampons and the sanitary towels, that's clearly a menstrual product. I don't see why there needs to be a problem. So I'll be continuing the campaign. Could you argue, though, that and correct me if I'm wrong on this, reusable sanitary products make up 0.1 percent of the sanitary product market at the moment, not propping up the tax base. Perhaps at the moment, you could also argue that that this just, you know, isn't apart from, of course, the idea of women, women paying for their periods being an affront to many people. Could you argue that this is not a big deal? Well, of course. But I mean, I think that 0.1%, what we really, really need to see if we're going to make progress on the government's environmental goals, we need to grow that. We need more and more women to be choosing reusable products. And I think period pants are a really accessible form of reusable products. So I think, you know, that should be a goal because there's no doubt

that, you know, much as we don't like it, we all have to use, all those of us who are menstruating have to use period products, you know, once a month, most of us, and they create a great deal of waste. It's a really good opportunity to try and really target that without making life uncomfortable for people who need to use them. I'll come back to you in just a moment, Ruby, but Sarah, a question that's come in from Linda, what about incontinence pads and panty liners? Are they taxed? They're not, but they are classified separately. They are classified as a separate product and they're not taxed accordingly. I think they're actually a healthcare product.

Okay. And then this is deemed as clothing, hence this distinction here that you're campaigning against. Ruby, as someone who obviously runs a company in this area, will you make money out of a change? What will that be for you? I know you said it didn't negatively impact you as a business, but that's another question. No, this is the one thing that we don't do. And since when I launched the campaign, I said the minute we get the VAT removed from the period pants, we will actually reflect the reduction of the price in our underwear. So we will give back the 20% that we're paying at the moment. So if the customer, for example, our basic cost about £12,

with the VAT removal, it'll cost you £10. Or if you're buying a pack of five, that'll be only £41. And that five pair should last you for at least two years, you know? The line there slightly went out, but I think we got all of that. Ruby Rout, thank you very much for your time. The founder of Wooker Period Pants, and we were just hearing there from the political side of things, the Liberal Democrat MP, Sarah Olney,

who's working with MPs across the political divide on this issue. Now, many of you have been getting in touch about our next discussion, and I will reflect some of your messages in just a moment. But you're answering the question, how do we, how have you coped with the grief of losing a friend to suicide or losing a friend at all? Because I asked the question specifically about suicide because it's been exactly a year since Caroline Flack, the television presenter, took her own life aged 40. As the popular and much-loved host of Love Island for four years, the winner of 2014's Strictly Come Dancing, presenter of hit TV shows like The X Factor,

Caroline was one of the most recognisable faces on British television. She stood down as presenter of Love Island in 2019 after she was charged of assaulting her boyfriend. She pleaded not guilty and was due to stand trial in March. But 12 months ago, Caroline's death touched millions of people around the world, with the hashtag Be Kind trending across social media. The actor Ophelia Loverbond was a close friend of Caroline's and she joins us now. And in a moment, I should say, I'll talk to Sarah Bates from the Support After Suicide Partnership because that's also a very specific thing to be able to talk about with expertise but for now let me wish Ophelia good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour.

Morning, thank you. Thank you for talking to us on what I imagine is a very difficult day. Yeah, I've been dreading it frankly. it's a huge milestone to have reached a year it feels like it's kind of zipped by but at the same time dragged by it's very strange sensation. What did you think about this morning when you when you woke up? Um I thought about where I was when I found out. I thought about how amazingly sensitive my friends were who told me and we all just immediately rallied around each other and it's not stopped from that day. In fact, it's kind of grown the kind of tribal friendship that we've all kind of supported each other. I mean, it's very typical of Friends of Caroline to be that way.

Yes. I mean, I even can get that sense from some of the posts on social media amongst her friends. How did you find out? I was actually in I was driving on the freeway in California and my friend called and told me there's an eight hour time difference. So difference so they were keen for me not to find out you know through the media or something um and my yeah friend told me how did you meet Caroline I met Caroline at another friend's birthday dinner um and she just she came in she was a bit late which was very very uncharacteristic for her Caroline was kind of always early but she she was late for one reason or another and she just it was just this immediate connection she just she you knew when Caroline was in a room there was no it wasn't just that oh is Caroline here yet you knew when Caroline was there um she just kind of emanated

this vivacity and she just changed the energy of a room and she she walked in it was just an immediate connection of just hi um and just um I think I mean that was probably about 10 or so years ago and and you two just found a connection at this dinner it was I just I think there's some people that you meet where you just feel an immediate affinity it was like we'd known each other forever we we I mean found each other mutually hilarious so that was great and just I just just loved making each other laugh and that seemed to be so much of what our friendship was which is why losing her has been I mean losing anyone is difficult obviously but she has she was such an enormous person in my life that and it's it's that laughter is one of the main things

you feel that absence very keenly I read that she was amazing at karaoke she loved dancing uh the the friendship that she gave to people but that's sort of that vivacity of hers you did you asked me what was one of the first things I thought about I just the important thing is that because of the way Caroline died it's very easy to let that overshadow everything else but her life counted for so much more than the way she died and that those are the things that I've been thinking about I've been playing the Supremes and I've been playing Chic and I've been playing all of this you know playing Dusty Springfield all of the songs that we would sing at karaoke that she would just belt out of the you know she was this with the same height with

five foot two we both had size three feet and yet we were very loud and took up a lot of space and those are the things I've been thinking about it is just she would hate it's very easy to say this and it's very it sounds kind of you know like some sort of platitude but I think one of the things when when I do start to feel quite overwhelmed by it's very painful that it's the grief of missing her is that she would hate so much for me to be sitting here like this she would want me to focus on all of the amazing things that we did together and the fun things that we did together and that sounds like such a kind of wishy-washy platitude but it's it's simply true she would she would she always called me a wally and she'd always just oh don't be a wally come on get up come on let's have a sing song she was just those are the things that I would want to do and remember her and and

she sounds like she she made a decent cup of tea as well. She made great cups of tea. You'd go over to her house, you'd have a cup of tea. There's never anything in the fridge. You'd have to... Very challenging. And then you'd stick on beaches or, I don't know, insist on reading your passages from Valley of the Dolls and telling me, you've got to do this in a film.

You'll be the best. And she was just so enthusiastic about what life had to offer. So, yeah, but she made, yeah, a cracking cup of tea and she, you know. Important skill in life that I have to say personally, I truly value. It doesn't matter if the fridge is empty as long as there's a bit of milk and a tea skill. I wondered because Caroline, as I mentioned, was so recognisable and so loved by many, but she also experienced, as some would put it, a hounding by the press, and there was a lot of

coverage of her. How hard is it to grieve someone who feels like they are owned publicly? I don't feel like she was owned personally I think that's again just a perception I think I think that's one of the things that is become so dangerous is that you forget that the person on the end of this is a human being and she has a favorite color and she has a favorite film and she likes her gym jams a certain way she's a human being and it's just very, very easy to forget that we own them and we can say anything and we can hurl anything at them and they can take it. And it's just, it's become so far removed from remembering that they're human beings.

In terms of the public grief of her, I think that's just testament to how wonderful a character she was. I mean, she was just, she had such an impact on so many different people's lives. That's actually strangely been quite a comfort to see what a lovely legacy she's left behind. And just people, so many people, one of the most common things people talk about

with her is her laughter. That I think that it's, if you could bottle it, if I could bottle it and just, it was such a bomb. But I think that's a nice thing that she's so publicly remembered for that for her big character I was yes well I was re-watching some clips of her last night and every clip has an absolutely brilliant laugh in it pretty much and it is

it's a really great laugh that you missed that that's probably one of the biggest things I miss her is her cuddles and and just her laugh just you just sometimes you wouldn't even know what you were laughing at and she'd you just you would find each other look each other going what what just wouldn't stop I mean the we're going to talk a bit about the specifics in a moment about coping because so many people have been getting in touch but did you have a sense of her sadness and her despair before you heard the news? Or was that something she kept to herself?

I think out of respect to Caroline, I'm not going to talk about her private life in that way. I think it's... And I totally respect that. And you've only got to take me where you wish to. But the reason I sort of asked is if you didn't, and some people are just saying this on messages that specifically with suicide is that if what you said about those people are still people they have a favourite colour and they are individuals the hashtag be kind started trending last year and I wonder do you think in the intervening 12 months we've learned how to be kind? I mean I think it's a that's a big habit to learn. It's harder to shrug off bad habits. I mean,

I think it's all very well saying be kind, hashtag be kind. Kindness is more than a hashtag. It really is in your actions. And I also think I've never understood that phrase, sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. Of course they words are lethal words can be lethal and in would I'm would would more kindness have have stopped this from happening I don't know but it certainly wouldn't have hurt and I think you can't just write hashtag be kind you need to it more kindness never hurt anyone um in terms of what you're saying about the shock it's it's always shocking when someone does this you don't have it's not like they've been you know whenever you lose anyone it's it's very it's enormously difficult I lost a family member to um breast cancer and that was you know very hard but it was not this felt very

different I thought think something that was very interesting to discover was that the grief feels different because it was a complete shock there was absolutely no way of getting used to the idea or or you know visiting someone in hospital it was it was just it's very um it's the the kind of the suddenness is very hard to to comprehend i have to say that that is something i'm seeing coming in on some of the the messages from people who've been through something similar let me me bring in Sarah Bates from the Support After Suicide Partnership. Sarah, what advice would you give just after what Ophelia just said about there's no way of getting used to this? Yeah, I think what Ophelia's said very eloquently is what so many people feel. And, you know, I could have done more or questioning why that makes it so,

so difficult to deal with. Somebody who I admire very much through our work once told me that, you know, the pain never goes away for her. And she lost her son. And she says, the pain never goes away. It's like a giant boulder in the room and after a while I learned to move around that boulder and it doesn't go away but I just sort of learned to move around it and and you know at some point it it might grow some moss or some plants and new things happen with it and it's all there but it takes a new form I think one of the things I would say is it is so important to talk to people and to your friends and Ophelia said that beautifully it can be really difficult sometimes especially if you if you feel guilty if you feel that you could have done more perhaps you had an argument with

that friend before they died it doesn't mean it's your fault it just means that you care and sometimes it's actually easier to talk to a stranger in that situation there's lots of support out there you know the Samaritans being one of the famous ones you care. And sometimes it's actually easier to talk to a stranger in that situation. There's lots of support out there, you know, the Samaritans being one of the famous ones, and they're always open. And sometimes it is easier to talk to a stranger. But to talk is very important. Sarah, thank you for that support after Suicide Partnership. And I should say at this point, if you do feel you need support, please visit the BBC Action Line website where there is a full list of organisations that can support you. Ophelia, if I could give the final word to you, and I think quite fittingly it should be this.

How should we remember Caroline Flack? We should remember her as someone who loved telling jokes. She loved making people laugh. She loved karaoke more than anyone, I think, in the face of the earth. She loved leopard print. She loved musicals. She loved going to the theatre. Her life was so, so rich.

It was, it was, her life was so full of love and laughter. And I want people to remember her by the things that she did in her life, not in the way that she went away I must say thank you for talking to to me and to all of us today I won't know you're welcome I just I mean frankly Caroline would love to be on Woman's Hour too so that's why I asked my friends what do you think and they said oh my gosh she would love it so well we'll we'll take that Ophelia Lovibond um I hope you look after yourself for the rest of the day, you and your friends. And Sarah Bates, thank you very much to you. I will come back to some of

your messages in just a moment. But now I just need to go to our guests down a tunnel. That is the first time I've said that on air. The environmental activists who are against the high speed rail project HS2 are living in tunnels in Euston in London. They've been there for just over a week but they say they'll stay as long as it takes to stop the construction work. One of them is Blue Sanford. She's 18. Last year some

compared her to Greta Thunberg. I caught up with her just before we came on air and I began by asking her to describe where she was. I am in a tunnel under Euston Square Gardens in central London. And you're living there and sleeping and eating there at the moment? Yeah, we've been here for, I think it's 20 days today, almost three weeks, and we haven't been able to leave.

We've just been completely isolated inside this tunnel. I mean, so because my understanding is some of the protesters and I believe your sibling have left and some of you have stayed. Yeah. Yeah. OK. And what are you trying to stop HS2, which is the high-speed railway to project, which is incredibly damaging to the environment, society, and as part of a wider fight to stop the climate ecological emergency. And how many are there of you now left in the tunnel? I think six, around six. Okay. Are you the only woman? No. No. So it's a mix of women and men? Yeah, it's a pretty good mix. And if you don't mind

asking, how old are you and what are you normally doing when you're not in a tunnel protesting? I'm 18. I would be in my last year of school, in the second year of sixth form, but I'm on school strike until the government makes a real commitment to end the climate and ecological emergency. And I've been on school strike for two years now and no change has been made. Right. So you're involved in two strikes at the same time, as it were, the one that you're involved in. And I mean, some people would think I'd love to do school strike because I wouldn't have to do any of my my exams, even if they don't have the same views as you. To come back to why you're in this tunnel, you've just explained what you're trying to stop. But for instance, it's been said that you and your colleagues there are making the tunnels unstable and now that they are unsafe for you and also for those who are working on this. What do you say to that? The intention of this tunnel was never to be unsafe, never to put

ourselves in risk. And it was completely fine before the bailiffs came. It was sort of minimal to no collapse. We were all perfectly safe. Then the bailiffs came in and did some dodgy things from a health and safety point of view and sort of started digging above us and weren't completely on the case. That's gotten a lot better now.

But, you know, we're still watching out for it. And it's still, you know, it could be dangerous. Any form of protest is dangerous. Any time when you're working with bailiffs or with police, there's so many unpredictable elements. I mean, you calling them dodgy is your perception of them. But of course, they're just doing their jobs. You know, as HS2 say, blue sun for the others in the tunnels,

they're illegal trespassers. They're risking their jobs. You know, as HS2 say, blue sun for the others in the tunnels, they're illegal trespassers. They're risking their own lives and the lives of HS2 staff. What about the fact you've got to take responsibility for what you've done? An independent expert, Pete Folding, who used to do tunnel evictions, has also said that they're incredibly unsafe in some of the ways that they're working. You know, it could be dangerous. It could be way, way safer than they're doing it. OK, but the only reason, you know, we could argue, and I'm not an expert enough to do so,

but we could argue about the way that bailiffs could remove protesters safely from tunnels. But the reason that they're there in the first place is because you're there making things more dangerous that's what they would argue well yeah definitely the only reason they're here is because of us but like you know this this fight is is bigger than that we're like we're facing societal collapse we're facing extinction we have to do everything we can i I don't have any power in democracy, in voting. Like, I'm 18.

I've just, like, a few months ago got old enough to vote. And that's not working. Direct action is the only thing that's working. But it doesn't look like it's going to work because this is happening. And I suppose what I'm trying to understand from you and your colleagues in there, trying to understand from you and your your colleagues in there your fellow protesters what is your plan how long are you going to stay in there I'm going to stay in here barring significant physical injury or running out

food and water I'm going to stay in here until they get me out and that's what I have to do we're in a climate ecological emergency like a thousand children are dying every day. I feel like I have to do something. And this is the only thing that's shown to have worked, like with Extinction Rebellion and with all of these activist movements have been so, so powerful. It's the only thing that's working to stop societal collapse. You mentioned food there. If I could just bring your mind to practicalities. You've obviously managed to get some sort of reception

at some point in the tunnel. So thank you for doing that to talk to us today. I know many of our listeners wanted to hear from you. How are you managing with food supplies? Is that being dropped off at a certain point of the tunnel and by people on the outside? We haven't had any food or water in from the outside. We've just been living on the stuff that we stashed down here

before the eviction. Sort of tins of beans, mostly. We've got a big thing of chili sauce, which is a lifesaver. Right. I mean, I'm one of those people that just has to ask the questions that come to mind. It's sort of why I do my job. Where do you go to the toilet?

We have poo bags and they gave us like a fancy shoo-ee thing. We have bottles to pee in. Right. And then what, you just sort of discard them in the tunnel? We pass them out to the bailiffs. The bailiffs take them. The bailiffs are taking the loo products? Yeah, well, they have to. Otherwise otherwise we just stick it in front of them and right well thank you for talking to us today have you got any idea how long you'll be in there have you sort of got a projected time frame i i don't know like as long as it takes um we we really have very few options. And also the Climate and Ecological Emergency Bill,

which is a private member's bill that's sort of one of our last hopes to stop the climate and ecological emergency. Well, thank you for talking to us. Is it cold in there? Yeah. It's been pretty cold throughout the weekend so i just wondered if that mostly it's cold at the down shaft then it gets warmer the further and you go and you just sleep on the floor in sleeping bags in sleeping bags yeah blue thank you very much for talking to

us blue sanford there talking to us from a tunnel that That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Greg Jenner, the host of the You're Dead to Me podcast, and I have some good news. Now that we're all stuck at home, again, we are bringing back homeschool history. And if you missed out the first time, you don't know what it is, it's our fun, family-friendly and informative show about, well, you can probably guess, yeah, history. And yes, we're bringing back the obligatory

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