Woman's Hour - Louise Redknapp, Insomnia, Lindsey Burrow, Ukraine dam

Episode Date: June 8, 2023

The rescue efforts are continuing in Ukraine after Tuesday's breach of the Kakhovka dam. 30 communities along the Dnipro river have been flooded according to officials. Now the Red Cross has raised concerns that land-mines have been dislodged in the flooding. Kate Zhuzha is from Nova Kakhovka where the dam has collapsed and is the Founder of NGO Union of Help to Kherson in touch with people in the flooded areas. She talks to Krupa about the latest reports.Lindsey Burrow has been caring for her husband, the former rugby league star Rob Burrow, since he was diagnosed with Motor Neurone Disease in 2019. Last month, she took part in her first marathon, The Rob Burrow Leeds Marathon, and raised over £100,000 towards a new specialist Motor Neurone Disease Centre to be built in her husband’s name. She talks to Krupa about fitting in her training with family and work life and exploring the wider impact of MND in a documentary she filmed for ITV, Lindsey and Rob: Living with MND.Louise Redknapp is celebrating 30 years in music. She had 18 top 20 hits with the R&B band Eternal and during her solo career she sold more than 15 million records overall. Louise has just released a Greatest Hits album with 30 tracks, and a new single High Hopes. Having reached the final of Strictly Come Dancing and performed in Cabaret and the musical 9 to 5, she has now returned to the West End stage in Grease as The Teen Angel, the first time the role has been played by a woman in the UK. She joins Krupa Padhy to discuss her career.Bregje Hofstede, a writer, could not sleep for a decade. Driven to desperation, she started with the obvious interventions, then tried every trick and remedy she came across until at last she managed to re-frame her problem and found a solution that worked for her. She joins Krupa to discuss her book, In Search of Sleep, where she documents her experiences and tries to understand the science, psychology and culture of sleeplessness. Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Michael Millham

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupal Bharti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Very good to have you with us. Lindsay Burrow is a mum to three young children, a part-time physiotherapist, a marathon runner and full-time carer to her husband Rob Burrow, the former rugby league player who has motor neuron disease. We will talk to her about her journey, their journey as a family. Caring for a partner we

understand with a serious and life-limiting condition can be life-changing for all and there may be some of you out there for whom Lindsay's story will resonate so please don't hesitate to get in touch. We'll turn our attention to Ukraine in a moment and the devastation of that dam in the Kherson region, which you might have heard just there in the bulletin. Two women from the area will tell us what they are hearing and seeing on the ground. Obviously, it's been difficult to get through to people there. And we hope to connect to one person, Sophia, who is helping with those rescue efforts soon. Also, how well do you sleep? New research has found that sleeping badly can sharply increase the danger of strokes in

under 50s by over 50%. Scientists say insomnia increases inflammation in the body, which can damage blood vessels and lead to a stroke. We'll be speaking to the author of a new book on insomnia, which she suffered from for 10 years. So what we want to know is what do you do when you are unable to sleep? How chronic has the problem been for you? From a mug of hot milk to sleeping pills, it is different for everyone. So what has worked? What hasn't worked? You can text the programme. that number is 84844. You can send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note using the number 03700 100 444. All of our terms and conditions can be found on our website and we look forward to hearing from you. And do stay with us for a catch up with Louise Redknapp with me in the studio as she marks 30 years in the entertainment industry. But first, we begin with those rescue efforts continuing in Ukraine after Tuesday's breach of the Kakhovka Dam. 30 communities along the

Dnipro River have been flooded, according to officials. Many of you will have seen images of women, elderly and children being carried on the backs of rescue workers, some waiting on rooftops, others waiting in trees. Many are in tears, others remain stoic. And now the Red Cross has raised concerns that landmines have been dislodged in that flooding as well.

Kate Jujia is from Novokokovka, where the dam has collapsed, and she is also the founder of the NGO Union of Help to Kherson. She's in touch with people in the flooded areas. We are hoping also to speak to Sofia Kalan, a volunteer, and also a dear friend of Kate in that area,

if the communication holds up. But first of all, to you, Kate, what is the latest you are hearing from the ground? Are those water levels stabilising? Thank you for having me. Yeah, as far as we know, the water levels have not been stabilising yesterday, even though we were hoping they will.

So the water would keep rising and we would hear from people on the ground about families being trapped on roofs and rooftops and trees and begging in many telegram chats that the water keeps rising and they need to be rescued. So we have seen the situation really worsen by an hour. It's different on the two sides of the river. So the liberated side, which is under Ukrainian control, is seeing mass evacuation missions. Ukrainian government has launched a lot of evacuation and National Guard to help take people off. On the occupied side, where I am from myself, we are hearing horrible reports of people dying in those houses and those villages

because the occupants are not launching evacuation missions. And so what we are seeing is it is absolutely desperate. And us as people from the region, we're just pleading for support of the International Committee of Red Cross to send international rescue missions to the occupied territory to save those people's lives. Kate, as I said in my introduction, you are currently based in Ireland, but you are originally from Nova Kakovka and your family, as I understand it, they are still there? So part of my family is still there and as well as many friends and friends of family. Many of them have been staying there because they're really unable to leave. It's mostly elderly people. It's people with low income that are staying that are not able to afford a

very costly way to get out of occupation. And so this is why it's really horrible that they're hit the worst, because these are the people that have been completely helpless. And now they also lose their homes. Another thing that I think is not yet widely discussed everywhere, but is a key concern for locals, is the fact that the southern region of Ukraine is basically a step zone. It is very hot and summer isn't coming. All of our fields and all of our agriculture, which feeds not only Ukraine, but also many countries in Asia and Africa, is relying on that dam to supply water and hydration. So this means that our fields are going to be dying

and people are not going to have harvest this year, which is another heartbreaking consequence. And we're all just very worried that the south of Ukraine will essentially die because of the dam explosion. Kate, we've seen images of women, elderly and children, and you mentioned the elderly there. They're being carried on the backs of rescue workers, they're waiting on rooftops, like I said.

And many, it's important to remember, they'll be going about their day-to-day lives without the men in their lives, because many of them will have been called to the front line. Can you explain to us the challenges that they are facing? Yeah, so for women on the liberated side and families, many, many men are conscripted and are fighting in the army. So this means that women are essentially the household key person and families and elderly and children are relying on them. just really devastating. They have no one to help them evacuate because evacuation is really difficult. It's not even as easy as just having an inflatable boat because the current is really, really strong. So we are hearing reports of when people just try to get into an inflatable boat,

they're being carried away by the current. So they have to be taken by motorboats, they have to be taken by rescuers. So women are essentially just at the hands there of the National Guard of Ukraine and the rescue missions. So they're just waiting, essentially? They are just waiting. And this is the most heartbreaking part. Because everyone has access to internet, while it is breaking on and off, as you've seen for my friend Sophia, people do have access to Telegram chats. And if you scroll through many, many of these, you see people just begging for aid. People are sending their coordinates.

They're saying how many people there are. I've seen messages yesterday of women being like, we have two children. One is going into a panic mode. Someone needs to take us. Here's our coordinates. And there's a flood of messages like this. They come every minute. And amongst them pregnant women as well, as I understand it.

Absolutely. Absolutely. There are pregnant women that are on roofs and that are just waiting to be rescued. And it's just really horrendous because the demand for rescue is huge. Like I am serious when I say they literally come like every second. I'm seeing more messages come up. So it is really scary. Yesterday we were so desperate. We were even exploring options of could we get some sort of commercial drones and send inflatable life jackets on them or send water bottles because people are just trapped there. And of course, the rescue missions can't get everywhere. And here I'm

talking about the Liberated Bank. On the Occupied Bank, it's the same situation, but there's no rescue missions, which is absolutely heartbreaking. Those people have no one to rely on. No government is taking care of them. And so here I am just really hoping that the international community and the Red Cross can mobilize and negotiate to send rescue missions for those civilians. Yes, and that's a call that's been reiterated by President Zelensky as well. You talk about the internet there being vital. We're also struggling to connect with Sophia, I should say, for that very reason as she is out there.

She's been helping on the rescue boats and we just cannot get through to her, but we are holding out hope that we certainly can do so before the end of the programme. You also mentioned water there, so very vital and hundreds of thousands of people have been left without drinking water. You mentioned the drones there, but what have people been telling you about access to those basic needs? We are not even talking about them right now, to be honest, because everyone is so focused on just getting out and getting evacuated. Many of us have been messaging our friends and family who are in complete chaos and in shock and in panic, telling them don't drink the water from the tap. Don't drink any water. Do not take anything that is naturally produced. Just take everything bottled.

And at the moment, people are just in chaos, getting evacuated. Sofia herself spent a day on the boat yesterday, just going around streets of Kherson and getting people out of buildings with volunteers. So the drinking problem, the drinking water problem, will be a really significant one. So our NGO is now starting to see where can we source those tablets for cleaning water,

as well as sourcing pumps to pump out the water once it stops in flowing. One question I wanted to ask you was about the future and going forward, because as I understand it, with many of the men leaving to fight in the army on the front line, women have been left to tow the land, to manage the agriculture. And you talk about the devastation that this is going to cause going forward. And this is inevitably going to impact women more than men because they are being left to manage the land. Yeah, that is true.

In all honesty, this is like the most heartbreaking part for us because we understand that this is years and years of effect we are going to lose that land people are not going to have food supplies this used to be the most agricultural and most producing region of ukraine so i think for women that are staying there there is there is no other way than leaving their home region and their home cities because there's simply not going to be anything there if we're not going to have the Kahofka Dam working, which is not preparable.

At the start of the war, we heard stories of the elderly just not wanting to leave. They were determined that we are not going to go anywhere. And now we're seeing those images, and the ones that are staying with me are those of the elderly with their walking sticks, elderly women in tears. This is them being forced to leave because of this disaster. And that opens up a whole different dimension of emotions for the elderly who have spent

all their lives in these homes. Yeah, elderly have been the most reluctant to leave. We've been conducting evacuations since April of last year, and it has been really difficult. Oftentimes the relatives of an elderly would be insistent to evacuate the person, but the person would just refuse. I have my very good friend, grandma, staying in Novokachovka and telling yesterday over the phone that she will continue staying.

And when my friend was saying that the water might keep rising, what is she going to do? And she was just like like i'm going to go to this is your grandmother my neighbor your grandmother no this is my friend's grandmother my grandmother i've luckily managed to convince and evacuate almost by force quite literally but my friend's grandmother is staying in novokahovka and her excuse to staying is she's saying if the water will reach her house she will just go to the fourth floor of this apartment block and stay with her neighbors. So they're really not willing to leave. And I understand why is because their entire life is in that place. And they just cannot see and they don't have the power to go through getting out of there, not having housing, having

to search for someone to help them. So it is a quite desperate position for the elderly in southern Ukraine. Kate, I must ask you, you talk about your loved ones back home. This is your hometown. So not only is your country in the midst of a war, now your specific hometown has been targeted by this damn disaster. How are you? I don't know. I think I'm not really good. I haven't yet had the time to process as it just happened. And I've got mobilised to help the people, but I try to not let the thoughts creeple in because I think that will just really break me.

It will be a journey to get through this. But on the very first morning when I woke up and I saw it just it really felt like our roots are being washed away like our entire childhood is being taken by that water and it is really heartbreaking because the the dam and the hydroelectric station this is history of almost everyone in the town my grandparents have all been brought into Novakahovka to build the hydroelectric station. Not all of them are alive now, but I understand this is literally our family history that has been destroyed and our town is being washed away. So it is really heartbreaking.

I don't know how we're all going to get through it. Kate, Zsuzsa, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us. And we did try and connect to Sophia. And if we do hear from her, we'll try and squeeze her on because it is so important for us to hear from the ground. for now Kate Jujia thank you for your time and do take care. I did ask you at the start of the program about insomnia whether you suffer from it and what you do to curb it we've had a few messages in on that subject the best remedy for insomnia for me says listening to a recording of a novel read by a very gentle voice volume needs to be very low

so it can only just be heard and may help or slow down the narration speed if possible and this message from Catherine in Devon who writes if I wake up in the night sometimes a big glass of water helps dehydration can disturb your sleep also I use a breathing technique breathe in for four counts hold your breath for six counts and breathe out slowly for seven counts. It puts me back to sleep like a baby. Thanks for your messages there. And I'll read out the many messages that have come in on this subject throughout the programme. Since his diagnosis in 2019, the rugby league star Rob Burrow has been battling motor neurone disease with his wife, Lindsay, by his side.

Last month, she took part in her first marathon, the Rob Burrow Marathon, the Leeds Marathon, and it's raised over £100,000 towards a new specialist motor neuron disease centre to be built in her husband's name. You may have seen that memorable image of Rob being carried across that finish line by his friend and former teammate Kevin Seinfeld. A new ITV documentary out tonight, Lindsay and Rob living with MND follows Lindsley as she gets ready for that marathon training with working and family life whilst exploring the wider impact of this disease. And I'm delighted to say that Lindsay Burrow joins me now. Thanks for being with us good morning thank you for having me thank you why did you want to make this documentary you know from when Rob was diagnosed he wanted to show the effects of the disease and and the effects not that it just has on the person that has the disease but also the impact it has on

on the family and the carers and and Rob wanted to use his platform to go out and tell his story to help you know it might be the postman or the bricklayer or somebody that doesn't have that voice and when Rob was diagnosed back in December 2019 we were told that Rob would have maybe a year to two years to live and there were no effective treatments there were no cure and you feel quite frustrated you feel quite angry and you ask those questions of of well why isn't the treatments why isn't there a cure and on the back of the support that we've had from from the public and the rugby league community and we just wanted to sort of raise that awareness to try and help other families you know today and in the future that that might be diagnosed with mnd and i think rob sort of made it his mission to to kind of be that voice along

with you know the likes of um the great late doddy weir and and stephen darby and now ed slater that you know for that whole mnd community i think it's so important to raise that awareness and and give people hope i know that like you say, this was Rob's goal to raise awareness, but obviously that includes you. You at times being your most vulnerable, not just you, but your family as well. This must have been hard at times. Yeah, it was.

You know, I think I'm not particularly somebody that likes the limelight. I don't sort of crave the attention, and we're quite a private family in many ways. So I think to kind of go public and and open your doors and and especially you know in some certainly in Rob's case when he's at time when he's most vulnerable um but as a wife you just want to kind of support Rob and and that was his kind of goal his mission to to raise that awareness and you know I'm just there to kind of support Rob and do whatever I can to to do my little bit to help as so many other people have done as well. You say your little

bit to help but let's put this into context Lindsay you are a mum of three little lively children you are still working as a physiotherapist you're a full-time carer you're training for marathons first of all where do you get the energy I imagine there are not enough hours in the day yeah it certainly does feel like that some days you know um life is busy and and sometimes you do feel like you're on a conveyor belt a roller coaster but um you know I think you look at what Rob's going through and you you just want to make him proud and you you do generally just want to do a little bit to help and as I say the outpouring of love and support that we've we've had since going public and sharing our story um has been really humbling and really touching and we've had so many people that have come and said you know

they don't have to explain what MND is now because people have a better understanding people are more aware of the disease process um so that makes a you know a huge difference and you you kind of think to yourself well if we can help one other person or one other family then you know we'll continue to keep banging the drum and making as much noise um to raise that awareness for the mnd community and you say we because this very much involves your children as well can i ask how you all are yeah we're really good thank you um the children keep us busy there's there's never a you know a dull moment in the in the borough house but i think you know it's it's that's i think in many ways my coping strategy is is just to keep going to keep busy just you know take each day as

it comes and and just live life to the fullest i think whatever situation that you're in um it's it's kind of looking at the positive and and living in the now and and just making the most of life because none of us know what's around the corner none of us you know we never imagined when rob retired that this would be the path that that we would end up on um so you never know what life's going to throw at you but um you know we keep smiling and we keep making those memories and we're just grateful for you know every day that rob's with us and the time that we get to spend as a family. If keeping busy is what keeps you going, I mean, is it marathon training that lets you let off steam and gives you some time to yourself? What is it that keeps you going as an individual?

Besides being busy, those moments for yourself, do you have any? Do you know, I think as long as, I've said this from the beginning, it's not about me and as a wife and as a mum you just want to make sure that Robin and the children are happy and and if they're happy then then I'm happy and um I do enjoy that I've always enjoyed keeping fit um not that I'm a good runner in any form or shape in that head space of being able to go out and you know just have that hour to yourself is you know that that's I think for my own sort of well-being. It's quite nice to have that. And I'm so fortunate that I'm able to do that because we've got it.

It's a team effort. You know, my parents, Rob's parents, they all help with Rob's care and with helping with the children. So without their help, I wouldn't be able to do what I do. So, you know, it's a team effort and I'm really grateful that there are some people that won't have that. And I'm very fortunate that I'm able to go to work and do all the things that I do, you know, to help Rob and do a little bit of fundraising and raising awareness as well. Let's talk about that marathon. This was your first marathon. You did have an injury. How was it? Do you know what? It was brilliant. I absolutely loved every minute of it. Just the crowd and the support. the support you know we saw the very best of leads turn out to support that marathon and for me personally running through and seeing so many people with you know Rob or number seven on the back and the support was just incredible um I think I spent the first three miles just thanking

people I got to a point where you know my mouth was really dry and I thought I'm not going to make it to 26 miles if I carry on. But yeah, I'd do it tomorrow in a heartbeat. Would you? Yeah, I would. It was tough, don't get me wrong. There were times mentally and physically where it challenged you along the route, but then you kind of think, why are you doing it? And you kind of think, I'm running for those people that can't run.

And just, as I say, the support and the atmosphere on on the street was I've never experienced it was a really special day I've never experienced anything like it and then there was that moment at the very end when Rob was carried over the finish line by his friend Kevin how was that moment for you such a special moment I hadn't finished the race at that point so I saw an image and after the run in the tunnel one of the media guys had got it on his laptop and and straight away that just struck a really special chord and I just thought what an iconic image you know the marathon was all about friendship it was all about community spirits standing shoulder to shoulder with each other and I just thought that image um of Kevin carrying Rob over just really kind

of a celebration of what they've achieved together in in terms of you know the awareness and the fundraising they've done for MND I think collectively they've raised over 13 million pound for MND charities which is just phenomenal and I think it's just an image that you know it went sort of worldwide it was on front of newspapers and shared so much and I think it's just an image that, you know, it went sort of worldwide. It was on front of newspapers and shared so much. And I think especially in rugby league, that's such a hyper masculine sport to kind of see that bond, that friendship created a really positive image. I felt and I think an image that people will look back on in years to come. And to me, it just symbolises the true friendship and the bond that Rob and Kevin have. Yeah. I want to talk a bit about MND specifically.

Take us back to that moment. It was 2019 when Rob got his diagnosis. What was it like to hear that? Just devastating. I think working in the NHS as a physiotherapist, I had some understanding. I'd seen patients living with this disease. And I think I sort of knew what we were in for. Whereas at the time, I don't think Rob had that insight.

He'd, you know, as many people do, he'd sort of Googled it up and I knew it was in the back of his mind. But I don't think he really knew kind of the devastating effects of the disease. And Rob's attitude was very much, thank goodness it's me and not the and not the children and you know I'll sort of fight this disease and I'll be okay and I know Rob at the time was really worried about telling his parents especially his dad he didn't know what effect that would have on his dad and so it was really difficult to be in that situation and it was just you know life changing and and you know obviously your thoughts with rob and we've got three young children how are we going to tell them and how are we going to tell them what are we going to tell them and what did you say to him

it was really difficult because it was just coming up to christmas um and we sort of you know they'd broken up for the school holidays and we wanted to tell them before christmas because we just thought it gives them something positive then to kind of, you know, coming up. And I think we didn't have a lot of the answers to the questions ourselves. It was really difficult kind of thinking, what are the children going to ask us? Are we going to be able to answer their questions? But we sat them down and just said that, you know,

the dad had been having some tests and it had shown that daddy had got motor neuron disease and that that would shorten his his life. And at the time, our youngest daughter, Maya, said, you know, kind of what are you telling us this for? It's boring and sort of carried on playing. And then our eldest daughter a bit later came back and sort of asked the question, does does that mean that dad is going to die? And that was really, you know, kind of you just had tears in your eyes and, you know, you wanted to be able to say to her, you know, dad is going to be okay, he's going to get better. But that wasn't the reality. And we've always had the policy of, we'll be honest with the children, because I never want them in years to come to say, you said daddy was going to get better so it was really heartbreaking

and yeah really hard as a parent to have those difficult conversations with your children um but they're just so resilient and they just love life and I think they're very much like the dad in that they you know they've tackled this head-on and really really proud they don't look for self-pity they love life and they get up every morning with, you know, beautiful smiles on their faces and they keep us going. So, you know, incredibly proud. And we can certainly see, I've had the privilege of having a glimpse of that documentary and they certainly come across as hugely positive characters. Bundle of joy, clearly. In terms of support available to the motor and urine disease community. Are you happy with the degree of support that there is out there? Yeah, I think the MND Association do a fantastic job

in supporting families and carers. There are funding and grants available and there is a support mechanism there and other MND charities as well for people to reach out to. What more needs to be done, though, in your opinion, as someone going through this firsthand? Yeah, I think more research needs to be done into the causes of the disease, why people get the disease, and obviously in terms of effective treatments.

But I also think services for families affected could be better, particularly for there are support in terms of psychological support for those that have MND but for the sort of immediate family or for other family members that might be affected by it or young children there isn't really the services and most of that has to be accessed by the GP so they're seeing people that are not specialists in this field and so I think it would be nice to be accessed via the GP. So they're seeing people that are not specialists in this field. So I think it would be nice to be able to have those services

for the wider family. And because MND doesn't just affect the individual, it affects the whole family. Lindsay Burrow, it's been an absolute pleasure to speak to you. We wish you and the family all the best making those wonderful memories. Do take care and thank you for joining us

here on Woman's Hour. And Lindsay's documentary is out on ITV this evening if you'd like to have a watch of that. Next, how did you sleep last night? It's a pretty standard question to ask in the morning, but for some, the answer can be complex. It's impossible to overstate the importance of sleep for your health and well-being,

and without it, it is very hard to be your best self. My next guest knows this all too well an insomniac for a decade she's now written a book about how she finally solved her sleeplessness. The prevalence of insomnia in females is significantly higher than males according to many studies on the topic but why and what can be done about it first i'm joined by the author brekkie hovsted whose book in search of sleep tries to understand the science psychology and culture of sleeplessness good to have you on the program thank you for having me my first question how did you sleep uh tonight it was okay my my two-year-olds um a new challenge a new challenge for you.

Yes. Take us back to the beginning of your journey. How did sleeplessness start for you? I guess it started when I was in my early 20s and just about to leave, you know, uni and look for a job. And it was really difficult at the time. So I had some money worries and you know general worries about life and this led to me sleeping badly and it just carried on and got worse because you know insomnia can be a kind of vicious circle where you start to worry about the fact that you're not sleeping and then when you get into bed you'll be like oh my god I have to sleep this is just

the only important thing and obviously that's the worst way to actually relax so that carried on until I was in my early 30s when I finally decided to both you know really dig into the research because I was so tired of you know not sleeping and not understanding why and also to make some pretty drastic changes to my own life in the hope of you know getting to sleep. And I want to get into what worked for you, what didn't work, because that journey has been complex for you. But I also want to bring in Dr. Sarah Gilchrist, who has a doctorate in sleep and athletic performance, because we're hearing there from Brekkie about this vicious cycle

that can be unleashed when you do not sleep. Can you just highlight to us, Dr. Sarah, what happens physically and mentally when you do not sleep. Can you just highlight to us, Dr. Sarah, what happens physically and mentally when you do not sleep? Morning. There's lots of things that happen physiologically and psychologically when you don't sleep. The headlines would be with chronic poor sleep, such as Rick is describing, is the fact that you are basically in a state of not regenerating,

not restoring physiologically in the same way you would if you were having the, on average, seven to nine hours that is recommended for sleep. It is individualised. Some people need a little bit more, a little bit less. But essentially, we are more susceptible to cardiovascular disease, more susceptible to weight gain. So risk factors later in life,

diabetes, dementia, possibly Alzheimer's, certain cancers as well. So for example, breast cancer. So basically, our body isn't able to rejuvenate and restore in the same way it would do if it was having a healthy night's sleep. And that has long term consequences for the physiology of our bodies. I mean we've also had some new research out from the US this morning saying that trouble with falling and staying asleep it can be linked to an increased risk of stroke in people under 50 as well. Brekia for you what were those physical and mental implications of not sleeping? I think that but basically for me it was I was so worried that i was at some point what i mean i

knew about the increased risk of cancer alzheimer's and so forth so every time you're laying awake you think oh my god this is a new ticket for getting some horrible disease but also i was afraid that i would at some point just snap and my consciousness would not hold up like i would i would i was afraid i would actually go mad i think that was my biggest worry and not be able to support myself and you know the thoughts would just run away with themselves yeah and i think during the hours of the night it's really hard to keep some kind of perspective just between two and five if you're awake during those hours it's a kind of nightly madness which is really really hard to, you know, in the clear light of day, things will look, you'll think, OK, I'll be fine. Nothing's really very wrong. But at night, it's just really hard to not think, OK, I'm on a one way.

I have a one way ticket to exhaustion and this is just going to be the rest of my life. What did you try? What worked? What didn't work? I tried absolutely everything. And I mean, you know, if you look for advice on what to do when you're sleeping, the first things you'll be told is, you know, things to do about your behavior. So avoid screens so you have no blue lights. Exercise, eat healthily, keep a set rhythm, get blackout curtains, all of those things I tried. no coffee no no chocolate and so forth um and then secondly the thing that you worry about is do i have some kind of physical defect do i have sleep apnea and forth and so on and if you if you've covered all the bases and still you're not sleeping well

that's where my my story began because then okay what's what next? Is there any kind of cure or is this just a defect in my brain, a kind of a disorder? And what interested me was when I started reading about sleep a lot, the fact that all animals we know of are known to sleep. And the only animal we know of that develop insomnia is man. We humans are the only ones who make sleep so difficult for ourselves. The exception being the animals that we keep in captivity. So for instance, if you put a horse

in too small a stable, it will start swaying from side to side at night or biting the woodwork instead of sleeping. And this led me to the question, are we in some sense keeping ourselves in captivity? Are we in too small cages of time or short of money or just stressed out or in the wrong habitat? So what's off in a society where one in 10 people has real, really bad sleeping problems?

And this led me to research, which shows that, you know, sleep is, in fact fact connected to really vast topics like, are you feeling lonely? Loneliness is so intimately linked to sleeping problems that people who try to measure, scientists who try to measure loneliness actually measure how often you wake up during the night, like micro-awakenings, and it's linked to economic insecurity. If you have worries about paying for the groceries, you'll have more trouble sleeping. Obviously, I mean, this is common sense, but it's not something that we often talk about when we talk about sleeping problems. These really big themes like also gender, for instance. Why is it that women have so much more trouble sleeping internationally

in all the research that I've seen about this? And why is it that there's a big sleep gap between white people and people of black or latinx or people of color in western societies and if you look into that research you also find studies showing that an experience of racism will work through during the night. And even a microaggression, not something major like a violent experience, but a microaggression will also mean that you have more trouble falling asleep that night and will wake up more often during that. So there's lots to unpack there. And I want to bring back in Dr. Sarah Gilchrist,

because I'm sure you've got a response to what you've just heard there. Yes, there's lots to respond to there I really like your uh your point about habitat that's uh that stayed with me as well yeah yeah intuitive and um and you're right that the hyper arousal that's I'm not a psychologist my background's physiology but the hyper arousal that is associated with the somnia that's essentially what's happening is the brain can't switch off so you you that inability I'm sure you know but that inability to to fall asleep because of the hyperarousal and I think that that point about habitat is it is a very interesting one and it's linked to the fact that getting good sleep is is around being in a relaxed calm slate state in a dimly lit room you know you're in that state where you can um and you can fall asleep you said

about some of the things you've tried one of the key things that um is known to have had a positive effect with insomnia is cognitive behavioral and cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia i don't know if you've tried that um and i know a lot of insomniacs will say i've tried this i've tried that and everything one thing i would say with cbti is it is an umbrella term for a whole host of lots of different strategies. There are digital therapeutics now, so there are options to do it online with a therapist or without a therapist. I know that the guys at Oxford University have their Sleepio app, which is widely available in Scotland through the NHS, but it's not available in England yet. But watch this space. It is a bit of a postcode lottery if you can access a CBT therapist who specialises in insomnia.

So there's that aspect of it as well. So lots of people are suffering with insomnia, but they can't necessarily access the resources that would be available, the people that are qualified to help them, you know, through the usual NHS. And that's the important point, yeah, because, Brekkie, I know you did seek the advice of doctors and here at the BBC, of course, we would encourage people to seek help from their doctor if they are concerned about their sleep as well. Brekkie, what worked for you in the end? Because

you took quite drastic measures to get better sleep, didn't you? I did. Well, when I started doing this research and seeing the importance of context better sleep, didn't you? I did. Well, when I started doing this research and seeing the importance of context in sleep, I thought, okay, maybe there's a chance that it's not just my disordered brain, but there might be something I can do to change my context. And so I decided I had the great good luck to be able to work from home

so I could work where I wanted. And I was living in Amsterdam at the time where rents are really high. And I thought, okay, I'll move somewhere really at the time where rents are really high. And I thought, okay, I'll move somewhere really cheap. I'll have less worries about money. I'll have more time on my hand to do the work I really find important. And so I moved to a tiny hamlet in rural France for about four years. And that was a difference of night and day. I was sleeping for 10 hours for the first few months because I was just knackered. But it showed me that even if this is not a permanent solution, I now no longer live there because I had to move closer to take care of family. But it shows me that it's not, you know,

the end of the story. There may be things that if you look at context and the wider lens, if you take a wider view of sleeplessness, there might be things that if you look at context and the wider lens if you take a wider view of sleeplessness there might be things that you can do and that for me was a really hopeful hopeful message it's important to remember of course that not everyone can uh resettle in a different country to to sort their sleep out but there are lots of things that you tried and tested that did not work for you but uh do work for other people. We've had messages from people like Jay who say, breathing exercises have solved my sleep problems. Breathe in for five, out for six, a few rounds of that, and I am asleep. Another message here says, I use a classic sleep hygiene technique.

If I wake up in the night, I get up, leave my bedroom, read a boring book until I'm sleepy again. It works like a charm. Dr. Gilchrist, what is recommended in the first instance when you cannot sleep well i think the first point is it's entirely individualized so some of the things you mentioned that some of the listeners have been suggesting is it works for them so what works for you if you have been lying in bed and watching the clock for 30 minutes or more certainly take yourself out of that situation take yourself out of the stressful situation of not being able to get to sleep go to a dimly lit room and do something that relaxes you it may be

reading it may be listening to music it may be mindfulness breathing exercises meditation a warm milky drink whatever works for you i always say try one thing at a time you know if you throw lots of things you're not going to know what works and that can obviously create more stress so doing something that is relaxing for you in a dimly lit room that's key because of the hormone interactions with sleep and we need we need the darkness to for our brain to realize it's night time and it's time to go to sleep um and then returning when you feel sleepy returning back to bed the other thing with sleep is is routine so our bodies from a physiological point of view they love routine we need to keep in a balanced state

a homeostatic state so that's whether it's temperature control whether it's our diet our appetites and sleep is a big driver of that in terms of our routine so i would say be pragmatic life gets in the way children may be ill you have a big work project but on the whole if you protect your sleep value your sleep trust sleep is a natural process in the absence of a sleep disorder obviously that does need some intervention but personalize your sleep windows so that you are getting to bed at a regular time on the whole throughout the week and that you have a regular get up time and so you're getting the amount of sleep that you think you need could be seven hours could be eight could be nine you

might be at the extremes where you only need six or you need ten but what works for you the way to find out if you think how much sleep you think you need subjectively it's very easy if you wake up with your alarm everyone's a bit groggy when they wake up but essentially you're waking up with your alarm. Everyone's a bit groggy when they wake up, but essentially you're waking up with your alarm. You're alert, refreshed, and fully productive during the working day. You're not napping excessively in the morning. You're not a nap in the afternoon. A feeling of a nap in the afternoon is normal,

but it's not before lunchtime. You're not living off caffeine and all those kinds of things. Then the chances are you're getting enough sleep. If not, then readdress the balance. And it comes down to behaviour change. I do want to put this last message to you. A listener writes, I have suffered from insomnia for some nine or 10 years. I've tried everything to sleep and help myself from following all the advice around good sleep, some of which we've just heard, their good sleep hygiene, over the counter remedies, nothing works.

I've mentioned the problem to a number of medics over the years. None of them have taken it seriously with responses from, well, you could try sleeping tablets, but I wouldn't recommend it to. It's just a part of menopause. A new GP finally took me seriously and has referred me to a sleep clinic where I'm due to attend later in the summer. I cannot wait. I'm at the point of

complete desperation. The constant tiredness and brain fog which sleeplessness creates becomes depressing and affects every aspect of my life. Listening to that, Brekkie, does that sound like you a few years ago? Absolutely. That's me a few years ago. Yes, absolutely. And what would you say to that listener to reassure her? I would say that I think there are absolutely things that you can do, even if it's not the sleep hygiene, the obvious things which she obviously has tried already. And I think that for me, the upside was that most if you look at most of the steps which will get you to a point where you can sleep are also steps towards a happier life so it might be that a bad relationship is getting in your way it might be that you're in a job which doesn't fulfill you it might be that there's an unconscious worry eating away at you which sleeplessness will make you so desperate you'll finally solve

the underlying problem that's what happened for me And that's something which maybe could be an answer for this listener as well. Thank you so much, Brekia Hofstede, whose book In Search of Sleep is trying to understand the science, psychology and culture of sleeplessness. And also some expert insight there from Dr. Sarah Gilchrist as well. Thank you both for your time. Louise Retnab's career has spanned 30 years, first with the R&B group Eternal, followed by Solo's success.

She has had hits with songs such as Stay, Naked and Arms Around the Well, selling more than 15 million records. Having reached the final of Strictly Come Dancing and performed in Cabaret and 9 to 5, she has now returned to the West End stage in Grease the Musical, where she's taken on the role of the teen angel, the first time it's been played by a woman in the UK. And to celebrate, Louise has just released a Greatest Hits album with 30 tracks.

Good to see you, Louise. You too. Thanks for having me. You performed your album in a concert at the Shepherds Bush Empire just last week. How did that go? Yes, last Thursday. Do you know, it was so lovely to do. It was really, it was a full house. I got to sort of perform all sort of different songs through the last three decades. Some new songs in there, some eternal songs.

The lovely Kate Thornton sort of hosted. Kelly from Eternal come and sung Crazy With Me. Michelle Gell come and sung Sweetness. I wish I was there Songs that bring back a lot of memories I think for a lot of people Absolutely You have a career spanning 30 odd years in music Was it hard to select, reimagine those tracks?

Do you know when the team first said about doing a Greatest Hits I just think there's something that's very final about a Greatest Hits and I was not sure I wanted to do it but actually the more we sat down and we talked about it, it was more about celebrating those 30 years. And they said it was very much about new music as well, in which we put on the greatest hits. So it was kind of like just a really nice overall body of work

with new current songs on there, reimagined songs. You know, I re-recorded the Eternal songs, which was a bit nerve-wracking, but also lovely to get in and do. I think just being part of Eternal and Esther was our lead vocalist, who I think is most probably one of the best UK singers we've ever had,

personally, like she's got an incredible vocal. So you just want to do them proud. I wanted to do the girls proud. I didn't want to you know ruin any any eternal records so I felt like I had big you know boots to fill but no I love doing them and I actually love singing those songs now so um it's been a really really lovely project to work on well you mentioned Esther let's take us right back to when this all started with eternal you were just 15 when you when you were spotted in a nightclub

and then you had hit Such a Stay. And I should mention that was the first CD I ever bought. Ah, I love that. I mean, how easy was it to deal with fame at such a tender age? Do you know, I get asked this sort of question a lot because I think we were all so young and Eternal really was a big band. We sold a lot of records.

It was hugely successful, yeah. But I think life was so different then being in the public eye. There wasn't the level of sort of, even though you were in the papers and magazines and on TV, there wasn't like the whole element of social media and forums. You didn't really read people's opinions and, you know, people's thoughts on you. You were very much just in a world if you

got up in the morning your day schedule was you were going to go and do top of the pops you were you know then going to get up the next morning and maybe fly somewhere and do a tv show there you you just kind of worked and your only gauge really on your level of success was how many records were physically bought and less pressure in many ways. Yeah, I think so. As long as you were selling records and you were remaining in the charts at a good level, then you were successful. There wasn't the whole host of being a celebrity with it, if that makes sense. So is it tougher, in your opinion, to be in a female pop band, a female pop star now? I think what's tougher, I think there's really, there's pros and cons like anything and and there's some great things that come out of you know all of the the channels now that you can

release music on and but I think what is the harder part now is everybody has an opinion on you and everyone had an opinion on you back then but you didn't get to hear it so you were very much sort of like in this ignorant bliss of less vulnerable in many ways yeah if people like you they could buy their record and if they didn't like you they didn't have to buy it it was that simple where I think now we're in a world where you're not hidden from anything you get to read and see everything and all opinions are laid out in front of you so it's about wading sort of through them and carrying on with that self-belief and keeping on going which is the hard part. I do want to revisit some of that if we do get time but on

to your career in theatre in recent years you've done Cabaret, 95, you've appeared in the play Fatal Attraction and you attended stage school so was this something you always planned to do? I think when you go to stage school it's such the world of just theatre and arts. So you kind of train in everything. So singing and dancing, I have to say, I love dancing at school, was very much sort of my passion. And musically, I loved the Stevie Wonders of the world and Randy Crawford's and Luther Vandross and all of us. So I think that's where my musical influence definitely came from rather than musical theatre but being in stage school you did song and move classes and every week you would go in and you'd choose a song from a musical so I think it's always been in my

bones yeah groups yeah and tell us about Greece yes so on at the Dominion um which it amazes me because the cast are obviously really young because, you know, they're high school age. And it's such a good show. I mean, the energy they bring to the stage every night. I get to play Teen Angel. A few people have said,

so are you Sandy? I'm like, at my age, no. Why not? It's a compliment. But Teen Angel, the first time it's been played by a woman. Yes. Yeah, first time it's been played by a woman.

It's the famous Frankie Avalon, sort of back in the day, the dream sequence. And they make a really big thing out of it in the show. It's really nice. I sort of appear with these huge wings at the top of a staircase. I love it. It's very fun. It's all in really good sort of just a real good feeling, that element of the show. It's meant to be fun.

Yeah. You've also got a new single. It's called High Hopes, which has been described as a euphoric moment of pop joy about finding love again. Let's hear it for us. Tell us about this track. Does it resonate at all, finding love again?

I know. Well, I actually didn't write this track, so some people said, did you write it? Yeah, because when you write music, it does come from a really honest place. With me, it does. But when I heard it, there was two things I loved about this song and when you sort of get played songs,

you take them away with you and you think, is this something that fits on the album? Is it something I want to sing? Is it a melody I love? The two things I loved, it really reminded me of the Eternal Days and those new tracks on The Greatest Hits. I wanted to kind of slot in with a different decade of The Greatest Hits. So this was like my eternal sort of big gospel choir at the end.

And I love the lyrics. I think, you know, whatever you're looking for, I do think we have to carry an element of hope with us. I think it's really important. And when I first heard it, there was something in the lyrics. I thought, you know what, this is sending out a really positive message to a lot of people, not just about love. It can be about anything. Yeah. And it's kind of a hands in the air song, which I think always goes down well when the sun's shining. I like that. But you seem to be all about positivity at the moment, which is fantastic. And as you reflect back on those 30 years in the business, what have been your key highlights?

There's been a lot, I have to say. And I think doing the greatest hits has made me really look back and remember them fondly and be proud of them. I think it's really easy to forget to be proud of yourself as women, especially. I think we're very good at being proud of everyone else. So, yeah, there's been literally too many to mention, but I just think being in the music industry, all the gigs, all the love, the support you get from people, I've got to play some incredible gigs

in some incredible places all over the world. So I think all of them, too many to mention. We did talk fondly about that track that we just played and we should credit the wonderful songwriter as well yeah I mean listen everybody here the whole album from you know M&E Kate I've got songs written right across the board from the Nigel Lois's of the world people right across the board that I've worked with and I hope specifically yeah oh god you can't remember sorry I'm not gonna put in the spot we will we will try and push that right across the board that I've worked with. And Hi-Hat specifically? Yeah. Oh, God, oh, God.

You can't remember. Sorry, I'm not going to put you on the spot. We will try and push that out when we find those very important details. I've gone blank. I've been doing interviews all day. But it's a fantastic track and the writer has done a wonderful job. Can I bring you to some things that have been in the news in recent days? We heard from Rebecca Ferguson just this week.

She rose to fame in X Factor, and she talked about the pressures of appearing on reality shows, especially behind the scenes, a culture of bullying, she specifically noted. Being in a girl band now or a solo female artist, we touched it at the very beginning, but even with that reality show element, it's a different experience, isn't it?

I've only done one, which was obviously, you know, it's a massive show and I love to dance. So, yes, obviously a lot of pressure when you're performing in front of so many people. But the way we're sourcing talent now in many ways as well. Oh, the way we're sourcing talent? Look, we're in an industry where talent's sort of coming through from lots of different ways, through social media, through, you know, TikTok. I mean, in some ways it's great because people can get their music out there very easily. Programs.

I don't know. I think now it's more social media and YouTube where talent comes from, actually. Yeah. And you now, I mean, you've always had a strong work ethic. I mean, you take opportunities, you run with them. But you did take a break of several years to raise your lads. And I wonder how easy it's been for you to reinvent yourself time and time again in many ways.

Do you know, I've learned you have to just keep on going and be authentic to yourself. I think we work in an industry where people always want to catch you out. They're always looking for a headline. They're always looking for something to to sort of maybe knock you um and I think I've just learned that I actually genuinely love doing what I do and as long as I love doing it and there's a want for it then I'm just going to carry on enjoying it what is next for you um who knows I'd love to produce more I'm really interested in buying rights to some books and some films

and looking to produce in on the West End and being maybe behind the camera. Thank you so much for coming in. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you, Louise Redknapp there, with the details of her new album, new concerts, new role in theatre here in the Women's Hour studio with all the very latest. Thank you for joining us here on the programme. And to end, I do want to read you a handful of the many messages we have had in on the story about insomnia the news line there that it could lead to a risk of strokes but also those of you who

have been responding to a new book on the subject so we've had this message he says to solve my chronic insomnia i had a breakdown i sold my business and ended my 29 year marriage. And now I sleep for eight hours and haven't had any insomnia since. And that goes back to what Brekkie was saying about looking at your whole life, reflecting on what might be triggering that insomnia as well. This message says, when I have trouble getting to sleep, I sometimes try something which sounds counterintuitive, but works every time. I lie in bed with my eyes shut and try to stay awake. I always fall asleep when I do this. One of my problems with getting to sleep is that I often can't stop thinking about work usually.

Focusing on this one thing quietens my mind and allows me to fall asleep. Again, the pressures of work that Brekia mentioned as well. This one, to Woman's Hour, going to sleep. I have an imaginary deserted temple. I love this. It's made from smooth white marble, almost dark inside and absolutely silent. I slowly walk in.

I kneel on the cool marble and bow my head as if in prayer. I'm asleep almost instantly. Thank you, Julia. That sounds utterly wonderful. This one, long COVID gave me severe insomnia and I've been on sleeping tablets ever since. Catching it, they work well for me at the moment,

but I hope I can come off them eventually. Thank you to all of you for sending in your many messages to the programme. If you want to keep this conversation going, do find us on Twitter, on Instagram. We are at BBC Women's Hour. We'd love to hear more about your stories in reaction to any of what you've heard on the programme.

But that is it from me and the Women's Hour team for Thursday. Thank you for spending some of your morning with us. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Women's Hour over at BBC Sounds. Hello, I'm India Axon and I just want to quickly talk to you about witches. In this series from BBC Radio 4, simply titled Witch, I'm going to explore the meaning of the word today.

It is a twisting, turning rabbit warren of a world full of forgotten connections to land and to power, lost graves, stolen words and indelible marks on the world. Because the story of the witch is actually the story of us all. Come and find out why on Witch with me, India Rackerson. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.