Woman's Hour - Love-Bombed a new BBC Sounds Podcast. Can writing a memoir ruin your life? Who are you at work? Knife Crime

Episode Date: February 13, 2023

Coleen Greenwood spent almost two and a half years in a relationship with a man she knew as James Scott. He said he was a divorced firefighter who wanted to marry and go into business with her - but it was all based on a lie. Her story is the subject of a new BBC podcast series Love-Bombed with Vicki Pattison. Ahead of its launch we speak to Coleen about the impact the relationship had on her; and to DC Chris Bentham, who investigated the case.A boy and girl, both aged 15, have been arrested on suspicion of murder following the fatal stabbing of 16-year-old Brianna Ghey at a park in Warrington. This follows on from an incident last Monday, where a teenage girl was injured in what police have described as a "serious racially aggravated assault". Recent statistics from the Ministry of Justice show that there were 3,500 proven knife and offensive weapon offences committed by children between 2020 and 2021. We hear the latest from BBC's Rowan Bridge in Warrington and from Zoe Cooke, a campaigner against knife crime whose son Byron was stabbed to death in 2021. Do writers of memoirs focusing on traumatic events need protection? Does the publishing industry need to come up with guidelines to protect writers? Terri White, author of the memoir Coming Undone and Kit de Waal author of Without Warning & Only Sometimes: Scenes from an Unpredictable Childhood discuss. Plus who are you at work? Workplace consultant Gabriella Braun explain how psychoanalysis can reveal some hidden truths behind our behaviour. From interactions with your boss triggering feelings about your parents, to colleagues setting off old issues of sibling rivalries, Presenter Nuala McGovern Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. I hope you've had a good weekend. Welcome to Woman's Hour. And how do you feel about being back in work this Monday morning? Bright and breezy? Anxious? Bored? Enthusiastic? And do you express those emotions in your workplace? Or maybe you think you have a work you and a non-work you.

Well, my guest today, Gabriella Brown, would say they are one and the same. We bring our hopes, our fears, our personalities, our histories with us to work each day. Well, what does that mean? We do know that one in three women are looking to downshift their careers or leave the workforce entirely. So can examining it through a psychoanalytical lens help them thrive and stay? Those questions coming up are text number 84844. Maybe you have a question for Gabriella.

Now, something else we want to look at, memoirs. You don't have to look too far to see them on the bestseller list. Spare by Prince Harry is one that got the most ink of late. I think we can all agree on that. But Terry White and Kit Duvall, they're both going to be with us. They wrote memoirs about their tumultuous lives. Maybe you read them. And Terry is now calling for industry-wide guidelines

to protect vulnerable authors who make their pasts public. We'll hear why and also what her and Kit's experiences were after publication. It's a lot to think about. That stuff is out there for the rest of time. Also, I've just heard the first episode

of a new podcast and I am hooked. It's called Love Bombed. It's about a serial cheater who is leading a double life. So we're going to speak to Colleen who was caught up in the web of lies

that were created. Also the police officer who helped her get to the shocking truth of this romance scammer. We'll talk about all that on the eve of Valentine's Day. And I also want your thoughts on this.

Do you or have you given money to your kids? How much and until when? Or did you receive money from the bank of mum and dad yourself? There's a report out this morning from the IFS that says 14 billion pounds are handed over annually to the kids and that it's fueling inequality. Maybe no surprise there. But I do want to hear your stories and thoughts about it. So you can text the programme

84844 as I mentioned. Also social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour or email us through our website or maybe you want to tell us a little bit of your story with a voice note or a WhatsApp message.

That number is 03700 100 444. 03700 100 444. And the usual data charges apply, so you might want to use Wi-Fi. But I do want to start first with a sad story. Maybe you were reading these headlines this morning that a boy and a girl, both aged 15, have been arrested on suspicion of murder. And that follows the fatal stabbing of 16-year-old Brianna Jai at a park in Warrington. Just before coming to air, I got to speak to the BBC's Rowan Bridge, who is there. Well, Linear Park here just outside Warrington remains closed at the moment.

We can see a row of police vehicles as their investigations continue at the scene. Brianna Jai was found by members of the public here at Linear Park just before quarter past three on Saturday afternoon and she'd suffered multiple stab wounds and was pronounced dead at the scene. Last night two teenagers from the local area were arrested. Both of them are 15, a boy and a girl. We've also seen stepped up patrols from police in the local area. This morning I was outside a school, Birchwood College, where there was a police presence to offer reassurance this morning to pupils. The school themselves have also issued a statement saying that they are shocked and truly devastated about what has happened and that they're doing their utmost to support pupils and the wider school community at the moment.

Police say they are continuing to try and trace the weapon that was used in the attack and establish the motive for it. But at the moment, they say they're not treating it as hate-related. They've also asked for people and businesses in the area to check for dashcam or CCTV footage, which might be useful for the investigation. So very much continuing. And with Brianna what do we know about her? She was 16 years old she was a pupil at the local school and very few details

have been released about her and her family are understandably distraught at the moment. I don't have any more details about that at the moment. And you mentioned a little about the schools and how they are approaching pupils at the moment so it's such a traumatic event that has taken place what else have you heard from people in the area? Yeah I mean clearly this is an extremely traumatic event this morning we've seen I assume they were probably a couple of Brianna Jai's friends come down and lay a bunch of flowers at the entrance to Linear Park. Clearly extremely distressed about what has happened. I mean, an extremely difficult time for her family, the school, the local community.

It's an extremely shocking event to happen. And I think the school are trying to do as much as they can to support pupils and the wider school community, as they say. Rowan Bridge there. thanks very much to him. Now, this incident follows on from one last Monday where a teenage girl was injured in what police have described as a seriously racially aggravated assault outside a school in Ashford.

Five people have since been arrested, including a 16-year-old girl and two girls aged 11. And statistics from the Ministry of Justice, they were published last month, they show there were 3,500 proven knife and offensive weapon offences committed by children between 2020 and 2021. I'm joined now by Zoe Cook. She's a campaigner against knife crime.

Her son, Byron, was stabbed to death in 2021. First off, Zoe, I'm very sorry for your loss. Thank you for coming on Woman's Hour. Can you tell us what happened to Byron? Yeah, it was a Sunday morning. He rang me in the morning to say, hey, mum, are you cooking? I was like, yes, I'm cooking.

He says, OK, I'll be around for dinner in a bit. Love you. I'm just nipping to pick my friend up. His friend had got drunk the night before. He'd been watching the football because it was summer. It was July when the football was all on. And he wanted a lift home. So he'd gone to pick up his friend.

His friend's friend had had an argument with somebody the night before. So somebody totally who Byron didn't know um he'd gone to pick his friend up they'd nipped out to the shop and come back and a lad was waiting for this ginger-haired lad um that was a friend of my son's friend um someone who my my boy didn't even know and they were waiting waiting for him on the return with a baseball bat. My son, obviously, says, what are you doing? And the guy started going towards them. And my son kind of got him in a bear hug so he couldn't hit anybody with it.

As they've done that, they're obviously waiting for this lad. And there's three more waiting for this lad. And they've come out. And because my son's overpowered this lad that's going to hit this ginger lad um they've ran out and stabbed my son to death um like i say totally nothing to do with it and in hindsight i just think why didn't he just run away when he saw the lad with the baseball bat why did he go to protect somebody who he didn't even know but I suppose, you know. He was ambushed, he was killed. I'm reading here as well

that the assailants were jailed. He was 22 years old when that happened. Of course, his whole life ahead of him, as you would have thought at that point. This story that we're hearing about this morning Zoe, it's 16-year-old Brianna who has died.

It must be difficult every time you hear these stories, and I know you've made it your mission to try and campaign against knife crime. It breaks your heart every single time I hear another stabbing. It literally breaks your heart every time you hear it because you just think oh my god that's another family whose life is being ripped apart because it's it doesn't go away I mean I'm like 19 months down the line and every single day think about him every day on the way to work I cry every single day I mean I'm okay when I'm talking to people and when I'm at work. But as soon as I've got that alone time, like in the car, driving to work, you cry.

You know, it's something that never, ever goes away. You don't stop thinking about them. And when it's your child, it's heart-wrenching. It really, really is. And if these do what they were doing, just the pain they cause, it's just something else. Yes. And we don't know specifically with those children that have been arrested so far any of those details. But, you know, I am struck, Zoe, that you said, you know, you're thinking today, 19 months later, why didn't he just walk away and i'm curious if that's part of the message that you try and bring across to young people that you speak to now tell me all about

that uh the work that you're doing um one one thing i've done i've raised money to get bleed kits around because i know that's one of the major major issues in death that they bleeding out um so and what does a bleed kit do forgive me for stepping on you just stems the bleed so it's it's not just a knife crime it can be from a car accident someone hit in the head and it stems the bleed because if you lose 40 of your blood you die um so a bleed kit stems the bleed because if you lose 40% of your blood, you die. So a bleed kit stems the bleed. So I've raised nearly £20,000 and got them all around Nottingham. I've got them in certain schools.

And it's just to get them. So if anything does happen, somebody's got something to use until an ambulance gets there. So they can hold the bleed until an ambulance gets there. I work with the violence reduction unit and I'm working with certain schools. What do people tell you? I mean, it's so practical, the bleed kits you talk about, Zoe, but so, so sad that it's a necessity. What do young people tell you when you tell your story to them?

I mean, I've had a couple of successes. The first time I ever spoke, a boy at the front of the audience that i spoke to um a teacher went over to him she went are you all right and he went no i'm not and he started crying and he said i just feel like that's my mom at the front and he actually went to a police officer after and handed in a knife and then another event um someone went along with the youth worker and there were two boys and they went and handed in knives after um so you know my message has been getting across um and i think it's kind of because they're hearing from a mum and they're seeing it from a mum's point of view so it has been working them hearing from me um which is kind of it makes me feel like if if i say you know even if one life saved it's a job well done isn't it you know

and i'm wondering as well how you understand now because you've been doing this outreach work and with success, which is wonderful. Why do you think kids are carrying those knives at such a young age? I think one of it is early education. I think we need a lot more early education because we need to teach before the Internet teaches. Kids pick up iPads, phones, and they're getting taught by the internet and by things like drill music. I live in a really good area in Nottingham,

probably one of the nicest areas in Nottingham. And even there, the children are listening to drill music. There's been a lot of controversy over that though, Zoe, hasn't there, about whether drill music should really be blamed for incidences that are happening on the street?

You know, I would say there's nothing specifically as one to blame. It's a number of things. But you see, you've got all these children. What it is, is the drill music, the words. I've even listened to it myself just to see like kind of how it, you know, what the kind of words are. And how it actually even made me feel angry after listening to it.

Like I felt revved up after I listened to the words. Do you know what I mean? I mean, there was one, I was listening to it, and it was like, I'm carrying a knife in my waist, I'm going to stab, stab, stab you in your face. And the person that was actually singing this, he's like worldwide, he tours. So he's going into clubs and touring.

And you think, if you're going into a club and you're drinking and you're listening to this music and it's revving you up do you know you know what i mean and if this is the kind of influence that's influencing these kids and these kids are looking up to these kind of people it is going to have a certain influence i do believe that does have an influence on the children also they're going to be knowing other children are carrying knives so they're going to carry knives to protect themselves. They're also going to think, well, it's them or me. If they think other people are going to carry knives and they're going to also look at the sentences, they're going to think, well, if I kill somebody, I'll probably get 12 years. I'll do six. So I'd rather pick them guy than me and do six years.

My goodness. Let's stop there for a second, though, Zoe. That is, I mean, profoundly shocking that even the potential consequence and ramifications of carrying an act like that has even been thought through, albeit with obviously a teenage brain. He told me, I've actually asked a boy who is admitted to me carrying a knife. And I said to him, I says, what would you do if we're a bit like the, you know, Eastern Europeans and you got your hands chopped off if you carried a knife? He said, well, if you cut your knives off, hands off, because I wouldn't be carrying a knife. And well, you know, I know we'll never do that in this country, but he actually said to me, if he had his hands chopped,

if they chopped your hands off in this country, he wouldn't carry an eye. I don't know what law you are referring to there, but I take your point in the sense of if it was a much harder punishment from the get-go, you don't think the kids would do it. That sense of the no, it's like you said, even if you get caught carrying an act, nine times

out of ten you don't even go to prison. There was, I think it was Sheffield, there was a lad, it was his third time carrying a machete and because he went to university, the judge actually said, I don't want to ruin your chances

because I know you're working hard at university. So he didn't go to jail. He was spent third time. And I don't know, sorry, your line has just broken up a tiny bit, Zoe. I don't know that particular case

that you're talking about, but your point is, your larger point is that you don't feel that the punishment fits the crime, so to speak. Just before I let you go, I mean, do you think things are improving when you speak to kids? This horrific case today, nonwithstanding?

I do think when I speak to them, you know, the children are listening, but there's not enough of me to go around you know like myself doing good work but I can only do what I do I do what I do I don't get paid for it I only do what I do in my spare time because I've got a job um and like I say there's not enough people like myself that can get to every child out there. Well, I think I think people hearing you this morning will find it inspirational that you have taken that action, Zoe. I want to thank you so much again. I'm so sorry for the loss of your son, Byron. And that is Zoe Cook, who's a campaigner against knife crime and responding to that story that we heard of the fatal stabbing of 16-year-old Brianna Jai in a park in Warrington. I want to move on next on Woman's Hour about work.

Monday morning. Let's talk about it. How are you feeling? What we're really asking is like underneath there. How much does your subconscious influence how you are at work? I don't know how you interact with your colleagues, how you perceive how you're being treated? Maybe fairly, Gabriella can tell me, as she puts it, we don't neatly tuck our feelings and defences, insecurities and inadequacies under the pillow with our pyjamas in the morning when we go to work or afternoon or night, depending on your shift. That is Gabriella Brown that I am talking about. She's sitting opposite me here in the

Woman's Hour studio. She is a workplace consultant. Welcome. Thank you very much, Nuala. It's lovely to be here. So you've written a book all about your experience coaching people called All That We Are. You use a psychoanalytical lens to help people explore how they act the way they do in the workplace. I think there'll be lots of stories about this, 84844. And in particular, when we think about women, there's actually one in three that are looking to downshift their careers or leave the workforce entirely, particularly older women, as we've heard, in their 50s and 60s. So we're wondering, looking through that lens, could it help keep them in the workforce, maybe even thrive? Let's start with who we are in work, because maybe me,

maybe my listeners might think that we have a work us and a non-work us. But you say? I say that we can't entirely separate ourselves out, that actually we are composed of many different parts. We're not coherent selves and we can't neatly package some off to say that's home. I leave that there. This is work. I bring this here. I put on my suit or, you know, my makeup and I also put on the right personality. Maybe that would be nice, but it's not possible. We bring all that we are. The whole package. The whole package. And a lot of it is unconscious. So you say we should look at it more closely.

And I should say you're not a psychoanalyst. This is coaching that you do through a psychoanalytic lens. Would that be fair? That's absolutely fair. It's coaching and also I work with teams. I work a lot with teams. Which is fascinating. And I'm trained to apply psychoanalysis,

but I'm not a psychoanalyst myself. And so let's talk about this. Why do you think we need to look at our whole selves and what is beneath, shall the fact that we've turned the workplace very often into a place that's rather miserable and rather damaging and rather stressful for many people. Obviously, not all workplaces, not all the time, but I think many of your listeners will have experienced that. And I think the reason we've done that is that we pretend that we're not what we are. And we pretend that we can treat ourselves like machines and that we'll just keep being efficient and effective and we won't be bothered by feelings and we'll be rational. And it's not working. So I think given people are generally by far the biggest resource in a workplace, actually, why don't we pay attention to understanding them? Well, let's talk a little bit about it. And we're talking about all workplaces here. It doesn't have to be the regular office. It can be various centres that you work in or

institutions, or maybe you go into a freelance pool, whatever it is, and I want to hear your stories. Somebody's just got in touch. Andy, listen to this. He says, I'm a man. I feel compelled to get in touch. You're always welcome. All men are welcome on Woman's Hour. I was deeply affected by the issue of emotional triggers in my last workplace. I'm retired now, so there's no problem, but it was

very, very intense. I noticed it in myself and in others. In my case, I'm sure it was related to issues with my late mum. She had two sides, very loving and caring, but also a violent bully. Andy, thanks for getting in touch because it brings me to part of your book I was reading that sometimes our relationship with our bosses, you say, can be similar to that of our parents. What do you mean? Yes, and thank you, Andy, for that point. Usually, for most of us, our parents are our first authority figures. And when we go to work, we have another authority figure in the form of our boss. And so unconsciously, and it's usually

unconscious, part of our response to our boss may come from, or often does come from, part of our feelings about our parents, maybe leftover unresolved feelings about the way they used their authority. And so the way our boss might behave might trigger something, like Andy said. So what would you advise somebody like Andy to do? Who's in the situation now? I know Andy, you're retired. Yeah. My advice to someone in the situation now is the starting place is really self-reflection and self-awareness. So when you're thinking that I'm feeling really wound up, I'm miserable, I'm angry, whatever it is, just try and take a step back and think, what might this be about? And let your brain wander,

not trying to be rational, but just wander and see what comes to your mind. It's sometimes in those free moments of letting our minds wander around that things come to mind that make sense, like in Andy's case, something about his mum. But it could be other things. And then you might think, oh, hang on a minute. Maybe not all of what I'm experiencing now is to do with my actual... The reality of the workplace.

Yeah, really interesting when you get into people's interpretations, sometimes with a touch of paranoia about perception versus the reality. I have a question for you. Can you be a manager and a friend? Oh, I think you can and should be a very friendly manager not a friend you're not really a friend you're not really a friend well it gets very tricky what happens when you what happens when you're doing feedback and you have to give critical constructively critical feedback you might find that very difficult as

a friend. What happens if you actually get into where you have to do disciplinaries with somebody? So I think you need to watch. I'm not saying you can never be a friend, but you have to be really careful about your boundaries. But friendships in the office can be a good thing. Friendships in the office are enormously helpful, but not necessarily between manager. Yes, I understand. But especially women, actually, often women generally, not always, of course, men to find friends important, but women tend to find friends very important. and there's a lot of research that shows that if a woman has a friend at work, they're more likely to stay there

because they've got someone that they can talk to intimately, they feel has got their back, they can moan with, they can celebrate with, they're more likely to stay in the job. Because I mentioned there one in three women are looking to downshift their careers or leave the workforce entirely, particularly older women in their 50s and 60s. That's according to McKinsey research.

There was also some figures, I think it was 43,000, that was ONS figures, that dropped out of the workforce last year to look after family. I mean, when you hear those figures and the work that you've done, what comes to your mind about what it will take for more women to stay in that workplace? What it will take

is that we really start taking seriously the need to change the workplace. And I think women leaving are in a way driving constructive change because I think many of them are saying, I'm just not prepared to put up with it anymore.

Women are often the ones who pay particular attention to diversity, equity and inclusion. They're the ones nurturing new, younger, inexperienced colleagues. They're the ones who will lend an ear when someone's in trouble. But they're not paid for a lot of it. But they're not paid for it. And they're getting exhausted by it. And they're not seen.

It's invisible. And they're getting fed up with it, quite rightly. So I think if we start to think, actually, these things really matter, we need to recognize them value them pay for them and change the workplace so it's more humane we we bring about good flexibility we really have diversity equality and inclusion women are more likely to stay. So they're driving the change partly by leaving and they're more likely to stay if we actually bring through some of these changes.

When I read your book and it goes through various stories with teams that you have worked with I was shocked by just how hostile so many of the places were. The people coming to you were sometimes hostile to you as well but perhaps I would imagine that was as a reflection of what they were going through

in their work life. Did it shock you? No, generally not. But that's probably because that is the work I do. So I'm very used to it. And I've been doing it for a very long time. But also, I know that occasionally teams come to me because they say we just want to consolidate but actually that's rather rare usually they come to me because something's gone wrong so I know they're under stress and that's why they call me in and that's where some of the levels of hostility Yes, and you work with them for a long time and you have breakthroughs that you talk about, but take a lot on your own shoulders as well,

I have to say, when I was reading about it. But when you think about workplace culture or team dynamics, how powerful really is just one person, that one cog in the wheel to affect change? Because that's what I'm thinking my listener might be thinking. The one person can be enormously powerful, actually. And of course, they don't have,

if they're a member of a team, not the manager, not a leader, they don't have that kind of structural power. But they can be powerful in just occasionally saying, hang on a minute, why are we being like this? Hang on a minute, can I just check how you are? So just trying to introduce a more humane culture by stopping the treadmill, by asking those questions, by reflecting on their own behaviour, they can play a part in changing something. So that, I imagine, would be some of your top tips of changing the workplace. What would you like to see companies do, bringing that psychoanalytical approach to it? I'd love to see companies stop and think, we've actually, if we're architects or we're builders, we really understand the materials we work with. Why don't we really understand the materials we work with as in people?

And that's what I'd love to see companies do. Take human nature seriously and try to do the things by taking us seriously that will make our workplaces ones where we and our work thrive. Just before I let you go, Gabriella, when is it best just to call it quits? Really narcissistic bosses that you can't argue with, that will always have the last word, that there's nothing you can do. You're miserable, you're stressed, you're anxious. That can be a time to get out. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed reading the book. That is

Gabriella Brown and she has written the book that I've been looking at with all her stories. All that we are, all that we are. We bring it all to work. People getting in touch. Let me see. Flora here. I've worked in HR for 20 years. I firmly believe you can be a manager and a friend.

I think it's highly likely that somebody would not commit misconduct at work if you were friends with them. The key here is everyone being very clear about their roles. Interesting one. Keep them coming. 84844. Lots of you also getting in touch. About money.

Do you give your kids money? When did you stop? Let me see. Here's one. We saved since our son was born and gave him £60,000 at 18 for uni fees. Do you give your kids money? When did you stop? Let me see. Here's one. We saved since our son was born and gave him £60,000 at 18 for uni fees, living or to start a business or to buy a house. His choice, £60,000.

Wow. He's using it for fees and accommodation for an engineering degree, but earning for his food, hoping to come out of uni with some change. We're not big earners combined, £40,000. Same for our second son too. I don't have a name for that.

I'd be curious if it wasn't the same for the second son, what the discussions might be. But keep them coming, 84844. I want to let you know, you can also get in touch with us on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour

or indeed email us through our website. Oh, another one in. Sabina. Why should it be of any concern to anyone? It is the money parents have earned and saved. If they rather give it

to their kids than leave it for the government to collect, it's their choice. Besides, it will be theirs anyway when the parents die. Here's Kate. Kate likes cake.

I like that on Instagram. I have teenagers and if I can afford to help them as adults, I will. I'd hate to see them struggle and not help. Spark. If you can afford to help them as adults, I will. I'd hate to see them struggle and not help. Spark,

if you can afford it, why wouldn't you carry on forever? Okay, a lot of people on the same side here. Do you agree? Is there anyone out there

who says, no, that's it, ba-bum, done. 84844. Now, let me move on because Valentine's Day is tomorrow

and you may have seen the headlines warning people to stay vigilant against romance scams. According to Action Fraud, there were move on, because Valentine's Day is tomorrow and you may have seen the headlines warning people to stay vigilant against romance scams. According to Action Fraud, there were nearly 8,000 cases of romance fraud in 2022, amounting to over £88 million in financial losses. Now, there's a new BBC Sounds podcast, Love Bombed, with Vicky Patterson, exploring a unique case of romance fraud.

Colleen Greenwood spent almost two and a half years in a relationship with a man she knew as James Scott. Now, he told her that he was a divorced firefighter and they began to make plans for marriage and a new business. But all was not as it seemed. And while money was not the main motive, he defrauded Colleen's sister of almost £60,000. Well, to uncover the story, I spoke earlier this morning to Colleen Greenwood and DC Chris Betham, who investigated the case. And I began by asking Colleen how she first met James. It was a Sunday afternoon in September 2014, and it was on a dating app and a message just pinged through from firefighter Jay. We had a few messages and he seemed like a nice guy.

And that was the initial introduction. A couple of weeks afterwards we met for coffee and first impressions in person he wasn't my usual type a little bit shorter than i was normally gone for but he was he was a nice guy talked a lot quite um energetic and enthusiastic but good company and And yeah, it was only about 40 minutes, maybe the first day, but I left thinking, yes, seems a nice enough guy. And he said he was a firefighter? Yes, a firefighter with two daughters and divorced from his wife.

Tell us a little bit then how the relationship progressed. We started seeing each other. It was fairly infrequently to start with maybe once or twice a week just meeting for coffee or lunch but as time went on it did progress to a more serious relationship. He did obviously have to fit seeing me and our dates around his busy hectic schedule with having the two daughters and shift work at the fire station so sometimes he could cancel at the last minute but there was always a really good explanation he was always so sorry for having to do that and you that was no red flag to you the kind of um what would i say last minute ditching of commitments not really because i would hear him take a phone call from

his job saying would he come in and do a last minute shift? Or there'd be an issue with one of his girls having two daughters myself. Your kids come first. So if there's a problem, you're going to drop everything for your children. So his name at this point, James, as we say. Tell me a little bit about how you understood that he was a firefighter and some of the, I suppose, details around that? Well, he was so knowledgeable. He would talk about incidents he'd been to and car accidents, fires. He'd talk in so much detail about equipment. He would come and visit me wearing his full firefighter gear. He would have emails and text messages from people at the fire station and his senior officers.

He had one particular story of saving a little boy and had a thank you card from the little boy. Text messages, thank you messages from the little boy's father. There was just nobody, nobody didn't believe he was a fireman. But what about he used to turn up in his fireman's outfit? And talk about the smell. Well, it was permeated because it was a fireman's outfit. It was a genuine firefighter's outfit. Just unfortunately, it wasn't his genuine firefighter's outfit.

But it smelt of smoke. It had been to fires, so it had permeated into the material and so we would waft in the house and tell us how we'd just come from whatever incident, whatever fire and you could smell it. I mean, it'd be there with the braces hanging down, the big boots, the full, full outfit

while my family were there and friends, just to again, to back his stories up. It's so elaborate. I'm just going to bring in Chris here, who was the investigating officer. When you hear those details being talked about again,

about this man who was not any of the things that he said to Colleen, what's going through your head? It's shocking, absolutely shocking. Just to the extent somebody would be prepared to go to to deceive someone is quite incredible. And the length of time it took as well. Normally a fraud like this would happen quite quickly. People would transfer some money and that would be the end of it. But obviously this lasted a good couple of years. So it was astonishing, really, the levels of deception.

And I just want to let our listeners know, I mean, the relationship has progressed at this point. You even became pregnant after he told you he had a vasectomy. That, I think, stopped me in my tracks. And why don't you tell the story to our listeners, not me? Neither of us wanted any more children. I'd got two daughters that were 15 and 17 at the time. My family was complete. James suggested to take any worry out of an unwanted pregnancy that he would have the SNP, which he went to have done. I heard him on the telephone speaking about the procedure.

He went privately to a clinic. I knew the doctor's name. After a while after the event, he showed me documents showing he had a nil sperm count. So everything was great. And then two months later, I fell pregnant. And you would imagine that he would realise there are going to be consequences that are going to last for a very long time as a result of his actions. At that time, he just said it was meant to be. It was a gift from God. So many, one in 200, I believe he said, vasectomies fail. And it was a miracle. But yes, it was

diabolical to do that. So I'm giving kind of our listeners a smattering of the information that they will find out more about in the podcast as well. But he did start a fake property company. He got you and your sister involved. What do you think was his aim when you look at it now? I think he's the only one

that can really answer this because it's just so astonishing what he did and how he acted. But I believe he's the only one that can really answer this because it's just so astonishing what he did and how he acted. But I believe he started living a certain lifestyle and maybe enjoyed the adoration he was getting from people, being the big man, I don't know. And he just seemed to get bigger and bigger and he wanted to make this facade greater all the time.

He knew setting up the property business would take me to work, not working away. I could work from home then, which I think he preferred. He didn't like me mixing with anybody. And both myself and my sister worked in property. So it was an ideal situation to suggest a property business. So to set up a property business you need to have so many checks and balances. Throw it back to you Chris does that surprise you that he was able to do that away from even the romantic relationship? It does but obviously Colin handed over to me a lot of documents when I first met her which were all fraudulent documents so quite clearly he had planned that probably in advance as to what he was going to do so and all those documents they weren't very good there was spelling mistakes that there was sort of

addresses that didn't exist so it was quite easy to identify them as fraudulent documents but that just again shows the length that he's prepared to go to to commit this fraud. Just what you just spoke about there, his motives for me it must be a control thing. I saw James Scott as the sort of

conductor of a huge orchestra and he had loads of different people playing to his tune for a very very long time. So there was a financial side of it, no doubt, but I think also there was a control side. He was controlling a lot of people. And with that, we will hear in the podcast as well

how it all unraveled and how you, Chris, and the police began investigating him for fraud. But, Colleen, I'm thinking of you. I mean, when the life that you have created is not what it seems at all, how do you deal with that? How did you deal with that? I went to pieces initially, understandably. Shock, just everything I believed was just not real it was devastating I couldn't eat couldn't sleep I had to function I had a little baby to look after but honestly

it was appalling at the time and on some level almost it was a big part of my life and I loved him so I missed him it was almost like a grieving process because the person I loved, not just only his name, the whole person didn't exist. It was just a big act and a scam and he was very good at it. And now we've had this number of years that you have been processing it. I'm happy. I'm happy now. That's what I've always, once it happened and Chris will know because he spoke to me shortly after he first ran off. I've never wanted the

rest of my life to be defined by James Scott and what he did to me because I was a victim. I don't think, I'm not a gullible person. This man is a different level of manipulation and I wouldn't let him ruin the rest of my life because then he would win. And I couldn't let that happen. So we all fought to get justice with Chris. Chris was amazing. We got our justice and I've moved on

and pieced my life back together. And yeah, I wouldn't let him control the rest of my life. How long did it take you to stop loving him? It's a hard question to answer that. I hated him, but I missed him a lot to start with. He was a massive part of my life and my family's life. I mean, now I've got no feelings apart from I would like answers from the man and I don't want him to do this to anyone else or hurt anyone else.

I can't say that but I did for a while I loved him but I hated him but you can't love someone that didn't exist so it just faded away because the person I loved was a fan it wasn't real Chris how unusual is this case in terms of romance fraud? It's incredibly unusual. Normally romance frauds, the suspect is abroad and sort of doesn't reveal themselves. They won't normally reveal who they are. They won't have any sort of facial contact.

It's all sort of done online. So this was sort of a complete polar opposite. This male was in Colleen's life for so long. So really quite the opposite to what we'd normally expect. You know, I was reading today in the paper that almost

three in ten people who have met others online in the past 12 months say they were asked to give or lend money to someone they had not met in person. This is according to research commissioned by the Trade Buddy UK Finance. More

than half of those asked to hand over cash did so. I'd be so curious for your thoughts, Chris, and then to you, Colleen, like how people can avoid this sort of scam. What I would say straight away is before you transfer any money, the best advice would be to involve somebody else,

involve a family member or involve a friend and speak to them about it. Because quite often the suspect will not want you to do that. And that should be a red flag. They will not want to reveal themselves because they're a fraud. So if start mentioning well i want to speak to my sister or brother or children about it or a good friend they won't want you to do that and that should raise some suspicions um there's also online advice you can get you can go to a police station citizens advice but just really really think is it too good to be true because quite often uh it it is a fraud uh and people have lost like a hell of a lot of money um and there's no there's very little recourse if the suspect's abroad it's very very hard for the for any law enforcement to trace anybody abroad you know the other thing about

you colleen is you came forward as chris said and sure, well, I'm not sure you can tell me whether that was difficult or not, whether there was any embarrassment or shame or aspects like that, which I often hear about when it comes to being scammed. More online, I think, is probably the stories that I've heard. I'd be curious, you know, what you would say to women who have been through something, maybe not exactly the same, but a similar situation of being deceived really in romance, be it online or not. I would say that you can't, don't blame yourself. You don't feel gullible. These people are very manipulative, very clever actually I've written a book because I want to try and help other ladies um which shows my journey and how I came out the other side and how I got stronger and how I got justice but it's called playing with fire um which it was different James Scott I

never gave him any money so that part is different in my story I never gave him a penny um in fact my sister invested in the business, but that was a good 18 months into the relationship. I would say to anyone that, yeah, dig a bit deeper. If you're not sure, dig a little bit deeper, but don't blame yourself. And don't, if something has happened to you like this, then you can move forward and you can make a life you're saving,

be happy, do not let it spoil the rest of your life because that lets them win. That lets them win, so you can't do that. That's Colin Greenwood. She was with DC, Chris Bentham. Thanks so much to them. To hear more about the case, you can listen to the new podcast series

Love Bombed with Vicky Patterson. It's being launched tomorrow on BBC Sounds and there is a link to it on today's episode page on the Woman's Hour website. Thanks to all of you that have been getting in touch during that interview about whether you give your kids money. Here's Sophie. She says our boys had paper rounds at 13. At 18

they worked to fund their gap year travel. We didn't contribute. One worked three small jobs at uni. They were really good at valuing money and handling it. In their 30s we gave them large lump sums to help them buy their first homes. We're very proud of their resilience and independence. And Floor says, I don't think children

should be given lots of money once their teenagers are older. They struggle. They go through as important and necessary to have a sense of accomplishment. We do help with deposits for flats, but just for a short time. And then the kids respect that and pay it back. Thanks very much for responding to my call for some more thoughts on that.

But now I want to turn to the writer and former editor-in-chief of Empire magazine, Terry White. She has spoken out about the vulnerability of writers of memoirs that are about trauma and abuse. Terry's own memoir, you might remember, Coming Undone, came out in 2020.

And she says, while the book may be a finished product, dealing with having her story out there still isn't done for her. And in part now, because she's adapting the book for Netflix, it continues. She is calling for industry guidelines to protect vulnerable writers. So how can and how should writers of memoirs be protected? And to discuss this with Terry, we also have Kit Duvall, who wrote the memoir, which you may also remember, Without Warning and Only Sometimes, Scenes from an Unpredictable

Childhood. That was last year about her experiences growing up in poverty. You're both so welcome. Thanks for joining us on Woman's Hour. Terry, let me start with you and why you're calling for these guidelines and what your own experience was like having all that information about you out there? Well, it was really in response to a piece an agent wrote for the bookseller questioning, I suppose, there's a lot been said after the publication of Spare about memoir. It's kind of brought memoir into the spotlight. And an agent was asking the question, does the industry do enough to protect vulnerable authors and so I wrote a piece from my perspective as somebody who'd written a memoir and especially

a memoir that dealt with very difficult subjects so poverty, sexual violence, physical violence, suicide, mental health, psychiatric wars, I mean pretty much all the bad things that you can imagine and that was my first book and I think you're kind of you're trying to prepare yourself for the writing process which you know is going to be difficult because you're revisiting memories you've probably suppressed for years but it's it's much more than that actually because it is the writing process because you're not actually just retrieving memories I you're summing it summoning a life really you're trying to remember tastes and smells and sounds and things you've you've squashed and tried to bury

for decades and so but that's only the start of it because then you have your editor's edits you have copy edits you have legal edits um you have press and publicity and so I think when you sign a book deal especially for memoir you're so I think when you sign a book deal, especially for memoir, you're so excited and all you're concerned about is the work and getting the manuscript in a good shape. But should the industry at that point, you know, be sitting down with the author and saying,

look, this, I just need to walk you through the process, especially if they've not been through it. So this is what's going to happen. This is what you need to kind of gird yourself for almost. And I think it's part responsibility of the industry. So could there be shared centralized resources between all the major publishers and the independent publishers as well? Could there be guidelines and harm reduction guidelines that the entire industry tries to follow. But I also say at the same time, authors need to do a bit of robust self-examination, which is, can I actually write this at this point? Do I have the kind of resilience and the emotional fortitude at this point to be able to write it? Because I think we do have a responsibility to ourselves as well. And if that answer is no, then I think

you're better off and braver not to write it. And I have never written a memoir, nor do I think I will. But I would imagine the book you have in your head may not be the way the public sees it or the aspects within it that they decide to focus on. And I'm very much thinking about Spare in that particular aspect. But Kit, let me bring you in, because you decided to write yours after both your parents had died.

I found that interesting. You were approaching writing your memoir in a very different way before a copy of it went to a publisher or editor. It went to your family first and your brothers and sisters, I should specify.

Yes, I sent it to, there's five of us, I sent it to my brothers and sisters uh one friday and gave them the power of veto i said you can change anything any line any sentence it comes out automatically um and they i they sent One sister said she didn't like two particular words. And that was it. But for me, it was a very, very important that they agreed with what I said, because it was their parents. It was their childhood. And I had to make sure that it was OK with them much more so than anyone else. I didn't really care what anyone else thought,

but for them who had the same experience that I did, that was the most important thing to me. And what about, as Terry is speaking about potential guidelines, I'd be curious in your thoughts on that, particularly after having something published and the reaction to it. I think guidelines are great. I think it's a very good idea. But I think mostly we have a responsibility to ourselves before we accept the commission or before we do the work to think about what it's going to be like when people question you about the things that you're going to write about, personal things, sensitive things. And also people do come at it from unexpected areas.

I've been to literary festivals where somebody in the audience has put their hand up and said, I don't think you did have that little to eat. You couldn't have because you wouldn't be here. And they've literally taken issue with facts. And it's a surprise, obviously, I mean, I'm fine, I can deal with it. But it does surprise you that people feel they have the right to question and disagree with things that have actually happened to you. What about that, Terry? Well, it's interesting, right? Because when when you're writing it and even right up until publication it's it's your thing and it's your story and like it says as soon as

you put it into the world it becomes something else entirely and it becomes the kind of property of everybody else and i think one of the things that new memoirists often struggle with is they're really not prepared for the questioning from both interviewers in the press people on social media people at events and and whether there could be you know as a journalist I always got media training could there be a more robust set of kind of like helpful training for authors around okay these are the kind of questions you're going to get because some interviewers are great and sympathetic and kind and are just trying to help you tell your story some people aren't so and you know I remember the Guardian first publishing an extract from my memoir and a man on Facebook after reading about

the childhood sexual abuse said oh look another one with daddy issues and that's kind of like a typical quite a typical thing that was often said and has been said to me since. And it's very hard to, I'm quite a robust person, I think, but it's really hard to read that about yourself. I've had people commenting on the most private, often most hurtful things in your life

that you've really summoned and tried really hard to tell truthfully, really. Truth is all that really matters. And it's very hard to have that challenged. And I think a lot of authors aren't prepared for that. Yes, because there is the writing. You are a writer, both of you are writers. But as it often happens with memoirs, I think, I'm thinking of Spare or others, the public will dial down into one aspect, critiquing your life as opposed to this art form. Kit?

Yes, absolutely. People do feel, as Terry said, it's out there in the public domain and people feel able to question you on anything. When my first novel came out, My Name is Leon, it's about a little boy in the care system brought up in foster care and I have two adopted children and still today people will say to me well tell me about your adopted children is that how it was for your adopted children what's your

adopted children's story nothing to do with the art form nothing to do with this fiction book. And I always say that that is not my story to tell. The adoption of my two children, their privacy, the things that have happened to them are not for public consumption. That was not my intention. And it's also absolutely nothing to do with the story that I wrote about. Terry, you're adapting the book for Netflix, approaching it differently, knowing now the full, I suppose, extent of what reaction can be. Yeah, I think, you know,

it's eight years since I left the psychiatric ward, which is when I first started writing it. It's five years since I wrote the book. And I think I'm in a very different place now. That's not to say I'm made of steel. know some of it still gets to me but yeah I'm adapting it for television and it was um part of me making a BBC podcast I've got coming up called Unraveled which looks at child safeguarding and and whether children are being felt by the system who've fallen out of schools and so there was a point last year example, where I was working on both the script

and the documentary and I had to step away for a couple of days because it was just too much of my life at one go. I understand that. I'm going to step away now, but I want to thank Terry White

and also Kit DeVarle for sharing their memories about their memoirs and maybe you won't look at them in the same way, the memoirs, when you read the next one. Back with you again tomorrow,

same time, looking forward to chatting to you then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm John York and I want to tell you about Opening Lines, a new series from BBC Radio 4 in which I'll be looking at books,

plays, poems and stories of all kinds that have made a mark and asking, what makes them work? This stuff is jaw-droppingly shocking. I'll be asking lots of questions. What's at the heart of the story? How does it achieve its effect? What makes it special? History is usually written by winners,

but he wants to give a voice to people who are not usually heard. I'll be hearing from people who know and love these works. Writers. We do have an orgasm evoked on the page. Dramatists. Biographers. It's worn better as a book about England than it has as a book about sex, I think. And directors too. In the end, I'll be asking, what makes this work worth reading now? Join me to find out in opening lines from BBC Radio 4 and available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.