Woman's Hour - Lucy Cooke on the female of the species, Furniture poverty, Threads

Episode Date: March 1, 2022

You might be forgiven for thinking that the females of most animal species are passive, maternal and monogamous – because that’s been the long-standing scientific consensus. But now the zoologist and broadcaster Lucy Cooke wants to expose the stereotypes and bias that lie beneath our common understanding of how the sexes work in the wild. Her new book is called Bitch - A Revolutionary Guide to Sex, Evolution and the Female Animal. You may also have heard her presenting a current Radio 4 series called Political Animals. Lucy joins Jessica to discuss redefining the female of the species. Furniture poverty is when someone is unable to afford or access essential items. including white goods, beds, and carpets and curtains. In 2017 around 400,000 children in the UK didn’t have their own bed to sleep on, and in 2020 at least 4.8m people were living without at least one essential household appliance. These figures are expected to have risen during the pandemic, and expected to rise further with the cost of living crisis - with soaring inflation and household bills. Jessica speaks to a woman we are calling April - who tells us about her experience of furniture poverty, and Claire Donovan from End Furniture Poverty.Following a trend across South America, last week Colombia decriminalised abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy. It means increased abortion access for women in the largely Catholic country. Jessica speaks to Marge Berer, the Co-ordinator of the International Campaign for Women's Right to Safe Abortion and to Marianna Romero from the Centre for Study of State and Society in Argentina, about the change in Colombia.Jessica speaks to Lana Kozak, a 20 year old journalism student in the UK, about wanting her mum to be able to join her here.We start a new series ‘Threads’ exploring the significance of old clothes. What is the oldest piece of clothing in your wardrobe? Do you have something that doesn’t fit anymore, but you just can’t bear to throw away? Why do clothes hold such strong memories and nostalgia? Today we meet listener Emma Nabarro-Steel, who contacted us with a song she wrote about this same topic, and the dress that means a lot to her.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Now, we'd really, really like your inputs this morning. If you follow us on Twitter, you'll have seen me basking in the sunshine of some strawberry fields in my absolute favourite item of clothing, my coral dungarees. Now we're starting a new series today, it's called Threads and we want to know which items of clothing you've had for years and just can't bear to throw away. It could be a dress, a shirt, maybe even a holy pair of socks.

Why have you kept hold of them for so long? Is it memories, nostalgia, how they fit, maybe how they make you feel? I'd love to know. I'll be speaking to one of our listeners who is so in love with her favourite dress that she wrote a song about it. So have a rummage through your wardrobe and let us know what you hold most dear. And if you want to send us a photo, even better. We are at BBC Woman's Hour on Twitter, or you can text us on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate, or you can email us through our website, as always.

Now, also on the programme, did you know lionesses are sexually promiscuous? It's true, I promise you. Or that some whales go through menopause. Well, a new book explores the female animal kingdom and tears up all the common stereotypes and long-standing scientific consensus. Zoologist and broadcaster Lucy Cook will be joining us to tell us all about her discoveries.

It is so intriguing. Really looking forward to that. Plus, another South American country has decriminalized abortion. Colombia is the latest to open up abortion access for women in what is a growing trend in Latin America. We'll be discussing what this means for women in the region. And as Russia's invasion of Ukraine continues, more than 400,000 refugees, mostly women and children, have fled Ukraine. Many have been welcomed into border countries such as Poland, Romania, Slovakia,

Hungary and Moldova. However, the UK stance has been criticised for only allowing Ukrainians who are immediate family members of British nationals to be allowed in. I'll be speaking to a Ukrainian woman about what these rules mean for her as someone who is currently studying in the UK and wants a Ukrainian family to join her here. But first this morning. This year, UK households could suffer the biggest annual decline in their living standards since the 1950s. With inflation already at its highest rate for 30 years and energy prices soaring, many people will now have to prioritise food and bills over buying other essential items such as furniture, beds and things like fridges and washing machines. Earlier this morning I spoke to a woman that we're calling

April. A few months ago she left a long relationship following domestic abuse. She was provided with unfurnished accommodation by the council where she now lives with her two children, one of whom has extra needs. You may notice that there's a bit of an echo on April's line. That's because her house has no carpets or curtains. I'm in what I would call actually a bedroom. It's going to be my son's room. It's just got a double mattress, what I got donated from a lovely lady. On the floor, I a um picnic um thing down so obviously the floorboard isn't cold

um the other two rooms have got nothing in um the front room is completely empty and i've just been paying out my own money the best i can with the kitchen stuff and got donated a white washing machine and cooker from the domestic all okay see there's no beds in the bedroom but there is a double mattress and you mentioned floorboards so there's no carpet no carpets no no curtains no furnishings? No. So what are the sleeping arrangements like in the house without beds? It's horrible because I've got a special need autistic son, so he's quite a big boy. He's six foot as well, so it's kind of hard to all sleep everywhere. But I sleep on the hard floor and I let him and my daughter share on top and bottom

on the mattress. And in the kitchen, how does that look? It's looking a bit better since I've had to, I mean, I did get an Argos loan card, which helped me get a few bits. And then I've had to get secondhand fridge and freezer because i'm diabetic insulin i need a fridge for it um so i'm getting there i haven't got no pots and pans we cook in a frying pan if there's pasta or anything um i've tried my best getting knife and forks and plates and that so you mentioned that you had a lovely donation in terms of the mattress how how else have you been able to try and furnish your house i put it on a facebook page and a lot of people were offering but some stuff were i mean one woman bless her so offered a settee but she said

it is falling apart and she said would it do for now and i'm like it's nice generous but then i've got to get rid of it after and i've got to pay the council to get rid of bits that's going to be very hard to use and with my boy being obviously autistic and jumping about it would have broke within seconds um i was donated to beds but they were very um how can i say my boy wouldn't have been able to have slept on it because he's big and they were literally very old. So I know people are trying their best but they're very, very used and old stuff. That's going to be hard. And you did get some help from End Furniture Poverty as well, right? Yes, yes, that's where I think I got the beds from.

I got donated a double frame bed, but I haven't put that up because I can't do it on my home, so I've had to try and drag it up the stairs, so I can't put nothing down at the moment because it all needs decorating as well. There's a lot that needs doing. I tried to do the ceiling yesterday and I had to stop halfway because I'm only four foot nine and I'm quite small with my diabetes I can only do certain amounts so I'm

struggling on my own very bad to decorate. What were you doing without a fridge if you needed it for your health? I didn't take my insulin for a while, which made me very ill. This isn't easy. This isn't an easy situation, April. How is this impacting you? My mental health. It's made me very upset. It's hard because you feel you want people to help and i sometimes feel a bit ashamed to ask

if you get what i mean because there's more worse people out there that ain't even got home at least i've got home not an easy situation april um i hope that you're able to seek out the support you need, speaking to your GP and getting any medical advice that might help in this situation. Yeah, I have been speaking to mental health team and everything. So you're trying to look on the bright side in terms of you're not living in comfort, but at least you have a roof over your head. Yeah. How is it affecting your children um it's affected my daughter a lot because she's not eating properly she does have an eating disorder because of what we've gone through um my boy I don't think he really understands but lately he's been getting very aggressive towards us. So I'm quite worried about that situation for what he's seen.

And I think he doesn't understand why we've had to go. So it is harder on him and it has affected them a lot. Do you feel that there's more people could be doing? Yeah, you've got, I mean, the council, they've come out and they saw what I had. Like, you know, it's empty. And I said to the council, when I signed my key, first of all, the woman probably missed me one white good, which that I didn't hear from.

And then when I had a councilman come in and I said to him, look, the holes are in the wall, I've got a classroom, I'm not a decorator. He just said, well, it's your job. So I felt, you know, let Dan. I was on the phone to the council one day to some bloke that was so nice he was I was telling him I've got nothing and he did bring me back two days and said it has concerned me has been on my mind and he said to me what is it you need and I told him he said let me see what I can do but I haven't heard nothing back yet but he was more

concerned than the rest of them it sounds like you're trying your best april definitely am there's going to be an increase in the costs of gas and energy bills how concerned are you about that i'm very concerned i haven't paid my gas yet i'm on over um because obviously i'm at a lot throughout the days when I didn't get my gas connected first. It was very hard. And so I was spending time in Costa, sitting in there. When I did get the gas connected, I was on for 11 days and I rung up over to ask my usage because I've got one of them boxes.

It wouldn't show up. And I was told I used £60 in 11 days. So it is a big struggle and it's like not fair for the kids because they can't, you know, when I do eventually get it properly done, it's going to be hard to even have them because my boy has all his autistic gadgets and he won't be able to use them. So how do you balance whether you need to buy food

or you need to buy furniture? Oh, I've gone without food. I have gone without food. It's very hard. I've done that. Just to get a microwave, I've gone a week without food. What more would you like to see change, April? More helpful women like me. I know there's people that sit there and could say, you know, you should have got away sooner, but it's hard until you're in that situation. But there is a lot that for any domestic, whether it's a male or female that goes from domestic, there needs to be more help. The council can't just give you a house and say, there you are, here's the keys.

That was April, who I spoke to a bit earlier this morning. Now, joining us now is Claire Donovan, Head of Policy Research and Campaigns for End Furniture Poverty. Very good morning to you, Claire. Thanks for coming on the programme. Now, you would have been listening to what April was saying. And what really struck me was that she said she was sleeping on cold, hard floorboards. How typical is her story? Well, sadly, this is extremely typical. We hear stories every day from people across the UK who are massively struggling.

As we all know, there's a cost of living crisis looming. And as you say, if you can't afford to buy food, if you're struggling to pay your fuel bills, how on earth can you afford to buy furniture? And for people fleeing domestic violence, for people coming from homelessness, they can be moved into a property with absolutely nothing in it.

Furniture's expensive and it can be extremely hard to get hold of. There's a real inadequate patchwork of support out there. So it is very, very difficult. According to UK poverty charity, Turn To Us, almost 5 million people are living without at least one essential household appliance. How has this happened? Well, I think, and those figures are pre-pandemic as

well. So we expect that to be much higher now as well. I mean, I think we have to look at the background of the decade of austerity. Obviously, then we've had the pandemic, we've got Brexit. And then, you know, as you know, we've got the national insurance rises coming, the fuel bills. You know, we've got rising housing costs, insecure housing, stagnant wages, insecure jobs. And the cost of furniture has increased. That's increased by 32% over the past 10 years. So this is a terrible situation, which sadly is only going to get much worse. And how does this impact women and their families? What is it doing to them? Well, furniture poverty has a terrible impact on people's physical health, as April said there, with the problem with her insulin. And of course, on their mental well-being as well. It affects

their social well-being. These are women who've been through a terrible experience and they're moved into a completely empty property in the majority of cases. Only 2% of social housing properties are letters furnished. That's against 29% in the private rental sector. So they move into somewhere, it's completely empty. And, you know, they could be worried about inviting support workers round, inviting family round, because they're embarrassed. There's this terrible stigma, there's this feeling, totally wrongly, that that they're a bad parent because they're unable to provide for their children. Children aren't getting enough sleep because they're sleeping on mattresses on cold floors, just like April's are, which of course has an impact on their ability to function at school. You know, the impacts are really far reaching and extremely negative.

Well, yeah, April mentioned about the behaviour of her son getting worse and him becoming more aggressive. Is this an issue that particularly affects women? I would say so, yes. Certainly the majority of people who contact us are women. Yes, definitely. But, you know, it can affect anybody from any background in any walk of life. But I would say definitely it predominantly affects women. And there's a difference, isn't there, between furniture insecurity and furniture destitution? Yeah, so we see furniture poverty.

It's the inability to afford or access a basic furniture, appliances and furnishings that provide a household with a socially acceptable standard of living. And it's that sliding scale. So it's on one end, we've got people who might have everything they need for now.

But if something breaks or needs replacing, they're in that furniture insecurity. They could move then into furniture poverty. And then at the other end, we have furniture destitution, where someone has few or none of the essential items that they need. And that in too many cases is somebody fleeing domestic violence. So we've got the cost of living in the UK continuing to rise, energy prices, inflation, cost of furniture all going up. What's going to happen to these people, people like April in that situation who are already struggling? How will they survive? I think we're going to see things, as I said, getting much worse.

And I think it's going to be we're approaching an even greater crisis situation. But there are solutions out there. You know, local welfare assistance schemes provided by local authorities are a vital lifeline of support. But sadly, inadequate government funding has meant that 32 of those schemes in English local authorities have had to close. And that means those people can't access that support. I've mentioned furnished tenancies and social housing. We'd really encourage social landlords who do do an awful lot to support their tenants to really look at providing more furnished tenancies for people to move into so that there is a glimmer of hope, there are potential solutions, but yeah, it is a very bleak horizon we're facing.

It was, and you could hear the anguish in April's voice when I spoke to her. You've mentioned a few options that are available that people can get hold of furniture and can access help. What else is available? And there are certain rules, I believe, in terms of receiving secondhand furniture. Not all of it is able to be legally kind of given on to other people. Is that correct? Well, there's a fantastic network of furniture reuse charities across the UK, and the Reuse Network has a great tool on their website where you can find your nearest furniture reuse charity, either to try to access furniture, some run crisis schemes to give items for free, others sell them at low cost, but also where you can donate your furniture.

Those charities will follow all the necessary regulations for fire retardancy, for fabric, etc. So, you know, you can be secure in the knowledge that if you get an item from a furniture reuse charity, you're getting a decent item. There's a brilliant set of grant giving charities across the UK who provide vital support. But unfortunately, they're absolutely battered at the moment. They're getting so many applications. Many of them are having to sort of close their application lines just hours after they've opened them each week because they're getting so much support. And that's why, as I say, I think the government really needs to step up and provide that funding for local welfare assistance. And the social housing sector needs to provide those furnished tenancies. Claire, thank you very much for joining

us this morning. That was Claire Donovan, who is Head of Policy Research and Campaigns for End Furniture Policy. Of course, if you've been affected by any of the issues raised in that conversation with April, you can go to the Woman's Hour website for details of the BBC Action Line, where you can find information and support. Now, we do have a statement from the Department for Leveling Up Housing and Communities. A government spokesperson said we know this has been a challenging time for many people which is why we're providing support worth around 12 billion pounds this financial year and next to help households with the cost of living. This includes putting an average of a thousand pounds more per year into the pockets of working families via changes to universal credit, boosting the minimum wage by more than £1,000 a year for full-time workers,

and our £500 million household support fund, which helps the most vulnerable with essential costs this winter. We are also giving councils the resources they need to maintain and improve their services, with an additional 3.5 billion being made available for 2022-2023. Now it's day six of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, and the fighting has escalated despite ceasefire talks taking place between Ukrainian and Russian delegations yesterday. While many Ukrainians stay to fight, more than 442,000 refugees, mainly women and children, have left the country, many crossing into border countries such as Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Hungary and Moldova. Here in the UK, only Ukrainians who are immediate family members of British nationals or people with settled status will be allowed to seek sanctuary, though Home Secretary Preeti Patel, says that further announcements on Ukrainian refugees

will be made in due course. I just want to play you a clip here of Yvette Cooper, the Shadow Home Secretary. She was speaking on the Today programme earlier this morning. For some families, their relatives are here in the UK, their friends might be here in the UK, and they want to rejoin them and to get sanctuary. And I asked the Home Secretary yesterday about the case of an elderly parent, a widow, Ukrainian widow, who wants to rejoin her daughter here in the UK and was turned away by the UK border force at the Gardenoir in

Paris. And that's just wrong. And I asked the Home Secretary whether, as a result of changes she was making, that this widow would be able to rejoin her daughter. The Home Secretary said yes, but in fact, it turns out she's not covered by the announcement that the government made. And I just think this is wrong. We have to make sure that elderly parents can also join their family. That was Yvette Cooper, the Shadow Home Secretary. Joining me now is Lana Kozak, who is a 20-year-old journalism student, moved to the UK from Ukraine three years ago to study.

Lana, welcome to the programme. Thank you for your time this morning. Just tell us your situation and where your family currently are. Hi, thank you for having me. So I am from Lviv, which is really close to the Polish border. And the situation there has been quiet so far, but we have air sirens every day,

sometimes multiple times. And what's worrying is that because my family lives outside the city, they can't hear the sirens. So they have to rely on phone notifications from our mayor. And people are preparing for anything. My mom said there are people with guns patrolling the streets. People are making Molotov cocktails and just stocking up on food. Oh, my goodness. So how much do you know about where your family are trying to move to, where they can go, where they'll be safe?

Well, right now, Lviv is considered a really safe city and a lot of people are actually coming in and fleeing to Lviv to seek shelter. For example, our football stadium has been transformed into a shelter. It has been built for the Euro in 2012. And right now, all of the people from the towns that are unsafe are fleeing to my hometown. Are there any of your family members trying to get to the UK? And are there any that would prefer to stay in Ukraine, as many are doing, to fight? So I'm trying to convince my mom to come to me to the UK, but I do not qualify as I am over the age of 18. So she cannot come and stay with me. And it's kind of really hard right now because she cannot go to the Polish border. There are about 30 kilometers line of cars lining up to leave.

And my friend right now has been there for three days straight without food or water or access to the bathroom. And they have just managed to get out this morning and are going to Germany now. So I'm not sure if my mom would be able to do that on her own. She's old and yeah. It really is a desperate situation, Lana. What would you like the UK government to do to be able to help your situation? I need, I think definitely visa-free entry for Ukrainian refugees right now is so important, especially for those with immediate families. I mean, my mom cannot come here, even though I am here and I'm calling her every day.

And it's just, it's heartbreaking. And if they can, they should definitely act on that as soon as possible. Are you scared that the situation will get worse where your mother is? Yeah, every day I wake up and I check the news and I read all of the telegram channels that my hometown has made and I can check, for example, if the air servants are on right now or what is going on, if they're military training. And it's just really scary trying, like waking up every morning, not knowing what message I will wake up to. There's been a lot of resistance from the Ukrainian people.

Do you think any of your family members might want to help with that? Yes, of course. I mean, a lot of my friends in Kiev right now are helping out, and everyone is helping out. I mean, whatever they can, it's helping out the refugees fleeing or volunteering at the borders. A lot of people are just kind of helping and making Molotov cocktails. So in case, you know, the tanks come, we have been instructed to throw the Molotov cocktails at them. And they have shared images with Ukrainian citizens for specifically to aim at, for example. So we're basically preparing for that. There's been much resistance in Ukraine. There's also been people here in London, in fact, helping out. And you're one of those people, Lana, you help out at the Ukrainian

Centre, sending aid and clothes over to Ukraine. Is that right? Yes. Yes. It's in Holland Park. And right now we have we got a lot of donations in terms of clothes, which is great, but we need more medical supplies. And I've been working on that and have been spending a lot of money on that, actually. So, yeah, if anyone can donate, if you have any clothes or medicine or anything that you can bring there, please do. We're welcoming any donations and also welcoming volunteers that could help sort out all the clothes and everything.ana thank you so much for talking to us i can clearly hear it's emotional for you but i appreciate that you've come on to share your story this morning

thank you for joining us on the program thank you okay there's been many of you getting in touch in regards to our Threads series that started today. We're asking you what item of clothing that you just can't bear to see go, that you wear over and over again, no matter how old it is or no matter how disheveled it is. We've had a text come in from someone who says, I was widowed in 2008. That night I slept in my husband's dressing gown. I've worn it ever since. It's getting thin and worn, but I still feel he's giving me a hug every day.

That's really lovely, isn't it? We've had a tweet as well that's come in to say, I repair and patch clothes rather than buy new. Recently, the elastic in a batch of 10-year-old knickers failed all at the same time. So I bought a roll of stretch lingerie lace and re-elasticated them. Do get in touch with us about your favoured items of clothing. You can join us on Twitter. Conversation going on there at BBC Woman's Hour. You can also text us as always on 84844.

And there's always the option to email us via our website as well. Please do get in touch. There's lots of conversation going on. Now, you might be forgiven for thinking that females of most animal species are passive, maternal and monogamous, because that's been the longstanding scientific consensus, hasn't it? But now the zoologist and broadcaster Lucy Cook wants to expose the stereotypes and bias that lie beneath our common understanding of how the sexes work in the wild. Her new book is called Bitch, a revolutionary guide to sex, evolution and the female animal.

You may also have heard her presenting a current Radio 4 series called Political Animals. Welcome, Lucy. So much about this book absolutely fascinated me. Why did you decide to write it? Well, I just I could tell there was a big story there. You know, female animals have been marginalised and misunderstood by the scientific patriarchy, dating back to, all the way to Aristotle, but principally since the time of Darwin, who was a genius and he's my hero, you know,

but he was, you know, even the greatest of scientists are not immune to the influence of culture. And he sort of branded the female of the species in the shape of a Victorian housewife, passive, coy and monogamous and naturally maternal. And it's simply not true. And we're now really beginning to understand really what it means to be female. Okay, so one of the big themes in the book was this idea that, how do I say it? This idea of male dominance in humans and also in animals as well. But when it comes to looking at female dominance, it's often ignored in the animal kingdom.

Is that true? And why is that? Yeah, I mean, the idea was is is that that you know you know that males are more dominant and more more variable basically and and that and they are and they drive evolutionary change that variation you know males compete with one another and the male that wins the competition wins the female and will make a lot, you know. And so they're the sort of dominant drivers of evolution. And females have sort of been dismissed as bit part players and not being as variable as males and less dominant as well,

you know, just in terms of social dominance. And when that's been discovered, it's been often written off as, you know, it gets caught up in in sort of semantics and it gets written off. Female dominance gets written off as being female feeding priority or strategic male chivalry. But why? Why does that happen? It's because people, people, it's science has been, you know, there's a lot of people who are invested in the existing narrative, you know, and they don't want it to change. I mean, science is a competitive, you know, academics. It's a very competitive industry, you know, and to suddenly sort of be proven wrong.

It doesn't always go down too well. And you've seen examples of female dominance when you've been out doing your studies on behaviours of animals, right? Absolutely. yeah. I went to Madagascar to investigate the lemurs there because lemurs are our most sort of ancient primate cousins. And everybody's familiar with the ring-tailed lemurs from the movie Madagascar, which incidentally, in the movie Madagascar,

Madagascar was ruled by King Julius, a male ring-tailed lemur. In real life Madagascar, there's no sign of King Julius because the males are submissive. It's the females who are dominant. So there's a queen in Madagascar. And then she rules with an iron fist as well. I went to see this amazing scientist, Dr. Rebecca Lewis, who studies female dominance in lemurs. And she said, oh, if you really want to see female dominance at play, then come to a baobab tree.

And there's this sort of amazing, huge barrel trunked trees. And they have these sort of hard fruits. So they take ages for the lemurs to bite through. And so they'll spend sort of like an hour trying to get into a fruit. And then as soon as the male has sort of, you know, done that, the females come along, whack them on the head and take it out of their hands, you know, say, thank you very much. I'll have that. So, and then the males are left to sort of pogo along on the ground, looking for bits that have been fallen from the tree.

So, you know, the females are a pretty feisty bunch. And when Alison Jolly, who was the scientist who first discovered this, proposed this, it was, you know, it was written off and, you know, dismissed because it didn't fit with the narrative. But I think it's incredibly heartening because we're sort of taught that patriarchy is burnt into our DNA, but it's not the case. I feel like I could learn a thing or two from these lemurs. Now, another common stereotype is that when it comes to female mean, I'm someone who, you know, I chose not to have children. I've never felt particularly maternal. I wonder if I was some kind of freak. So I was really interested in researching this.

And it transpires that, you know, the maternal instinct is really a parental instinct. They've now found the sort of switch for parenting that exists in the brain. It was discovered last year by Catherine Dulac at Harvard. And it exists in males and females. So, but it needs to be triggered, right? So it's not, it's not, we're not all sort of born with this mythical maternal instinct. And, you know, it turns out there was a really long-term study by this amazing primatologist, Jean Altman on Savannah baboons, which really, you know, really enlightened our thinking about mothers and, and how much there is to learn, you know, really enlightened our thinking about mothers and how much there is to learn. You know, first time mums, it's really hard. There's an enormous, you know, there's not this natural,

sudden understanding of how to be the perfect mother. You've got to learn the ropes, whether you're a baboon or a human or a frog, you know, it's the same, you know, and with baboons, the first time mums, you know, the mortality rate is 60% higher for their firstborn than for their second. Because, you know, they've got to learn to breastfeed, to carry. You know, baboon mums are, you know, as Jean Altman said, they're dual career mums. They have to work for a living and be mothers at the same time. And juggling those two things is really difficult. And so, you know, there's a lot to learn.

And some mums are better than others and actually interestingly and this is you know sort of you know the the class has a major uh effect over over the success with with even with baboons so female baboons um inhabit a very strict matriline and um class is inherited social status is inherited and you know if you're if you're lucky enough to be born into sort of female baboon nobility you're likely to breed younger and your your offspring are going to uh have a greater rate of survival because you get first dibs at food and you've got this sort of noble highborn protection racket protecting you and your offspring and and but whereas mothers in that are born to lower

status um uh you know lower status mothers they aren't they you know they they they they suffer a lot of stress and they're more likely to suffer from postnatal depression as well so they're more likely to abuse their infants and and and and and fail so you know i i just think all of these things are really valuable to understand that, you know, it's difficult. Another aspect of the book I was very much intrigued by, lionesses and the proven myth of monogamy, because they're sexually promiscuous beings, apparently. I've seen it with my own eyes. I mean, last week I was in the Serengeti. I saw a lioness solicit sex four times in the space of an hour and a half.

My goodness. Yeah. That's some stamina. Yeah, I know. I know. But what's fascinating about that is this is sort of one of these really sort of persistent universal laws that I was taught at university, which is that males are wired for promiscuity and females are wired for monogamy, you know. And it's simply not true. We now understand that, you know, sort of mating multiply is a strategy employed by lots of different species.

And lioness is one of them. And actually, they've been known to mate with multiple males up to 100 times during their fertile period. And it's a strategy to prevent infanticide because male lions are infanticidal. So it confuses paternity by mating with lots of males. And so they're less likely to kill the offspring when they take over a pride. So, you know, females are just as sexually strategic as males in the animal kingdom. And I think that's a really fascinating story. And you had an encounter with a killer whale, I believe, that revealed something to you about menopause. Please explain.

Yes. So menopause is really unusual in the animal kingdom. And humans were long considered to be sort of freaks because we we live we have this long post-reproductive life and you know natural selection takes a pretty dim view of a loss of fertility and you know if you stop reproducing then you die in most cases but but it turns out that alongside humans there are other species that naturally go through the menopause in the wild they're four species of toothed whale one of which is the orca the killer whale so I went to Seattle to find out and um more that and and it turns out that the the leaders of the the females there are the leaders of their community they're you know the female post-menopausal orcas are the ones that um you

know they're highly social that orcas are basically souped up dolphins they're they and and these um these post-menopausal females are the leaders of their community. And, you know, they're sort of repositories for ecological wisdom that keep their clan alive. It's clearly a book that is, you know, tearing down the stereotypes and the biases. Do you think there's far to go until we see a more diverse industry that you work in? Or, you know, is this something that's going to take decades, centuries to tear down? Well, unfortunately, I still think there is a long way to go. I mean, I think we've, we've come a long way and the sort of the early trailblazing zoologists who really sort of stood up and screamed about the accuracy of, of the portrayal of females, you know, started in the, in the 1980s, but it's still taking a long time for, for, you know, for us to sort of understand really the full potential of, of,

of females. And I, you know, I sort of think, you know, you know, there's a lot of women going into zoology, a lot of women going into science, but, you know, it's, it's hard for women to reach those upper positions because, you know, they're having kids. And if you don't have the support network for, for, for having children and having a managing a career at the same time, then inevitably, it means that those sort of top jobs still, a lot of them are occupied by men.

Not to say that men aren't also making amazing research on animals, I should say. I'm very clear in that in my book. It's not about bashing male scientists. There's been some fantastic revelations by by male scientists as well but i think you know a female scientist asks questions from a female perspective and i think those having diversity in science with as many voices cultures genders nationalities all as much diversity as possible um can only um make the science better lucy thank you so much it's been so interesting uh your new book is called

Bitch, a revolutionary guide to sex, evolution, and the female animal. And you can catch up with the first two episodes of Lucy's Radio 4 series Political Animals. It's now on BBC Sounds. And the final episode will be broadcast this coming Friday at 11am. Now over the last two years, there have been a number of shocking murders that have focused attention on the issue of women and coming Friday at 11am. Now, over the last two years, there have been a number of shocking murders that have focused attention on the issue of women and girls' safety in our society. They include sisters Nicole Smallman and Bibé Henry in June 2020, primary school teacher Sabina Nessa last September,

and a year ago this week, Sarah Everard by Wayne Cousins, a serving police officer. Today, the Home Secretary, by Wayne Cousins, a serving police officer. Today, the Home Secretary Preeti Patel has announced the launch of a new national communications campaign called Enough to challenge perpetrators and raise awareness of what we can all do to safely call out abuse. She's also announced that tackling violence against women and girls will be added to the strategic policing requirement, making it a national priority for police forces alongside terrorism, serious and organised crime and child sexual abuse. But we want to know how safe you feel. Has this increased awareness changed the

way you go about your daily life? Do you think about your personal safety in a different way now? How could you be made to feel safer? What would that look like? What would need to happen? It'd be great if you could let us know. Again, you can text us at Woman's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. Now, following a trend across South America last week,

Colombia decriminalised abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy. It means better abortion access for women in the largely Catholic country. I spoke to Marge Berra, the coordinator of the International Campaign for Women's Rights to Safe Abortion, and to Mariana Romero from the NGO CEDES, that's the Centre for Study of State and Society in Argentina, about this change in Colombia. This is a huge goal, a milestone for women in Latin America. Before that, Argentina passed a law, a bill, allowing women to request a legal abortion with no indication. We didn't have to explain anything to get an abortion up to 14 weeks.

After that, we have indications with no gestational limit. We can request an abortion due to health indications or to life indications or to rape. But having abortion legal up to 24 weeks with no indication but the women's decision, you can see it's a landmark, not only for the region, I would say, for the world. It's a very important moment for women. Marge, as you mentioned,

Argentina decriminalized abortion in December 2020 as well. So perhaps we can use that as an indicator as to how life might change in Colombia. But what was life like before for these women? What were they having to do before the decriminalisation came in? In Colombia, the court had initially, in 2006, the court had made abortion legal if there was a risk to the woman's health and for several other reasons. But in fact, the court, even at that time, was more liberal than the country. And services remained very limited. And so women were, particularly women who had no money, women living in poverty, women in rural areas particularly, had no recourse to a clinic that was prepared to do an abortion, even if they had a legal ground for it. So unsafe abortions continued in many cases and prosecutions of women for having abortions also continued.

So this will make a major change because it's now no longer possible for that to continue happening. Marge, many individuals and groups do not agree with abortion. So could there be a backlash from this ruling? There's always a backlash from a ruling like this and many people are opposed with abortion. So could there be a backlash from this ruling? There's always a backlash from a ruling like this. And many people are opposed to abortion and they see making abortion illegal a very good reason to restrict women. And they use it very simply. It's obviously a predominantly Catholic country and the Catholic Church has a lot of power in that part of the world, in that country in particular. I just want to read a quote to you from Archbishop

José Luis Ruida. And he said that the Catholic Church would continue to proclaim, defend and promote human life from gestation until natural death. What's your response to that, Mariana? For women or for people who believe in Catholic religion, who believe those words are the guiding principle of them, really, I don't have anything to say. My problem is when those words become the natural law for everybody. I don't think it's relevant to confront what the archbishop says. Marge, are attitudes changing in Latin America when it comes to abortion?

I think many more people are outspoken on the subject. They don't feel so afraid to say their opinion. Mariana, Colombia follows Mexico and Argentina, which have made similar rulings to decriminalise abortion up to a certain number of weeks. Ecuador has also eased its restrictions somewhat. Do you think other countries in this region might now follow suit? Well, we certainly hope so. We have seen women released out of prison in El Salvador, which is one of the countries with the most restrictive laws because abortion is not allowed under any circumstances. So we think we may see some changes there. But also we've seen how this green wave, the name of this movement that we have created, and that is because we use a green handkerchief in order to identify ourselves. We've seen that moving along the region. Honduras is also trying to include some of the indications in their law. The women in Brazil are resisting all to some indications that are very difficult to apply. But with a new government, they don't have a national law.

So, you know, I think we can expect more changes in the near future. Mariana, what do you hope for for Colombia in terms of abortion rights? I hope that abortion will be more accessible to women. Colombia has a very complicated health system. So up to now, most abortions relied on two private providers that were hired by the government, but also paid by the women themselves to have services. What I hope is more public health institutions will provide abortions that are included in the law.

And that will set a standard for the region to follow. That was Mariana Romero and Marge Bearer there talking to me earlier. Now, do you have an old dress, a shirt, or even a pair of socks that you just can't bear to throw away? Do you hold onto old clothes because they fill you with nostalgia?

Well, today we start a new series. It's called Threads. It explores the clothes that you just can't let go of. And why? On Twitter, you can see me right now in some coral-coloured dungarees that I basically just wear year after year after year and will never ever see the inside of a charity shop bag.

Not for me, anyway. They just remind me of heartwarming memories, like, you know, fun-filled days of of summer evenings with friends, just happy times. We did a shout out on social media for this. And lots of you have already got in touch, including one of our listeners, Emma Nabarro-Still. Now, Emma was cleaning out her wardrobe when she realized just how many pieces of clothing that she had kept just for the memories and she decided to write a song about it. single thread it's requiring of repair but we are never gonna fix this so these shoulders remain bare i need to throw you out i need to throw you out and emma joins me now after singing there about her wardrobe i was nodding my head along, Emma.

It's a nice song. I like that. Thanks, Jessica. Thank you. And now the song is called Marie Kondo after the decluttering queen. What provoked you to write this song then? Well, on the advice of the decluttering guru, that is Marie Kondo, my teenage daughter and I were having a clear out

and we were talking to our clothes as she advises us to do and saying things like, thanks for everything, but I'm going to throw you out now. And it was very funny, but it also made me realize that although I didn't think I was particularly attached to my clothes, the clothes really talk back to you when you talk to them and they tell you about things that happened while you were wearing them I suppose um and it really wasn't um it wasn't anything that I'd worn on a special occasion or anything particularly smart or um anything like that or a uniform it was it was the everyday clothes and then there was a particular dress that I that seemed to have accommodated a lot of change so I wore it before pregnancy probably for a long time before pregnancy then during pregnancy, and then for quite a long time after pregnancy as well.

And I suppose it kind of reminded me of that time. It was very, very dishevelled, very stretched. The neckline's very stretched from breastfeeding. And I think a few years ago, I must have decided to make it a painting dress and then several redecorated rooms and painted fences later. I came across it again on this occasion. And I'm a songwriter, so the rest is history. That's the thing, isn't it? With my dungarees, it's not necessarily how they make me look. It's the memories that I've attached to that particular item of clothing there's a sentimental value to it yes absolutely definitely and you know

I think um it it's certainly um it's certainly poignant that it's it's something that's been worn every day rather than something that has been bought for a special occasion. And tell me about the fact that you've gone through this transition whilst owning this particular dress. Yeah, well, as I said, the dress was very, very tired. And yeah, I think that's probably what makes it so poignant for me, the fact that it sort of spans the pre-children era, perhaps, or pre-childbirth and then post-childbirth. And that whole thing that happens to women when they have children, which is they become something other than just them. They become parents, obviously. It happens to dads as well.

But in terms of the physical expansion and change, I suppose that's why it makes clothes sort of more relevant. It must be joyful for you to still be able to wear it and use it for something else that you enjoy doing in painting yeah yeah definitely um I mean I I'm a bit of a serial redecorator um so it's only a matter of time I think before I write a song about painting as well um will you come and sing it on women's hour for us I'd love to yes were you surprised that the other items that you found and how much you had kept hold of and the memories that that evoked? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I definitely was. And I do tend to hang on to things that evoke memories. You know, it can be that I wore something when I had a particular conversation or, you know, through a very difficult time um yeah it's um it's it is quite

poignant and um i do tend to just put things in the painting box rather than get rid of them um i mean i'm not a hoarder but yeah that's that's my purgatory i think for clothes painting and then you decided to you know write and record this song about that particular dress and, you know, other old items that you found. And you actually got the musicians that you sing with involved in the process. Yeah. So we recorded Marie Kondo in 2020 and it's a track on an album called Softly Loudly. And I asked the musicians involved to bring an item, not necessarily of clothing, ideally something that made a noise, an item that they just couldn't part with, you know, maybe not the obvious things, you know, like a medal or a trophy

or something like that, but just everyday items that they couldn't part with. And it was fantastic. So there's no actual drum kit on the song. The drum kit consists of a table and a brewing bucket and a waste paper basket. And that was, they all belonged to Neil, who's the drummer. And the table was actually the table he learnt to play the drum on

as a toddler. And that's why he couldn't part with it. Debbie had a knife sharpener that belonged to her granddad and it reminded her of Sunday dinners as a child. So we used the sound of that. And then Adam, as well as playing the bass, tinkled some 1980s, I think, petrol station wine glasses um with the chopstick and you can also hear um the wine glasses in use um with some wine during the track as well so you can actually hear them being used so

it's definitely about um household objects that have emotional connection very very fascinating and so many people on social media and via text have got in touch because I think everyone can kind of relate to this. Everyone's got an item that they feel particularly sentimental about. Tamara has got in touch via Twitter and said, I love my old stuff, especially cobbled together tops. I make my own, which I call Trashin' Tops or Franken-shirts. I like that. That's very clever. Someone else has tweeted us to say, called Trashin Tops or Franken shirts. I like that. That's very clever.

Someone else has tweeted us to say, I wore a long sleeve t-shirt during our first meeting with my children, who we had through adoption. They react to it positively now, 10 years later. So it will never, never be discarded. That's brilliant.

So many memories that people are evoking here. Now someone else has texted in to say, I grew up in the seventies and 80s and clothes were mainly handmade, hand-me-downs or from the market. For my 18th birthday, I bought a long blue satin pleated skirt, which I loved with a passion. I still have that skirt over 30 years later.

And thanks to the elasticated waist, it still fits. You must, Emma, have found some other old items, not just the dress, but other things that you've kept hold of over the years? Yes, I suppose I have. On the actual track, Marie Kondo, because the dress doesn't make a noise, so I couldn't actually include that audibly. I did hit an old guitar and so you can hear that as part of the percussion later in the song

and the guitar was one that I used to use for busking from the age of about 13 onwards in Nottingham City Centre. I'm from Nottingham originally. And yeah, that's a brilliant memory. That's sort of a very sort of formative uh kind of musician memory for me and um a memory of being a teenager as well on the streets um and and learning to play the guitar and learning three chords and just going for it um so yeah that was a that was a nice thing to include unfortunately that guitar doesn't get played very much anymore

it just gets hit but it sounds great Brilliant Emma Nabarro-Steele thank you so much for joining us and thank you initially for getting in touch to tell us about your sentimental item and to become the first person featured on our new series Threads

it's been a pleasure we've also had a text from Victoria in Bath And to become the first person featured on our new series, Threads. It's been a pleasure. We've also had a text from Victoria in Bath. She says, I'm 50 and still wear a fitted black beaded cocktail dress I bought when I was 23. It fits like a glove and always makes me feel incredibly glamorous. I love that. There are so many people getting in touch. I really feel as though people are just connecting with what we've with this new series threads. Someone else has texted in to say after my husband died five years ago, a lovely friend used some of his many T-shirts to make a gorgeous quilt for me.

It's comforting and keeps me warm. That's from Rachel. And that's all we've got time for on Women's Hour this morning. But I'll speak to you tomorrow. And that's all for today's Women's Hour. Join us again next time. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Once upon a time, there was a man who lived in a house that wasn't on any map. The man lived in his house with his adopted sister, Nikesha, his friend, Sebastian, his aunt, Lily, and his faithful housekeeper, Mrs. Boone.

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Honestly, I don't know what they thought was going to happen. Who is Aldrich Kemp? A new five-part series by Julian Simpson on BBC Radio 4 and available on BBC Sounds. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive.

If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.