Woman's Hour - Lynn Nottage, Maggie Murphy, CBI Investigations, Race across the world, Emergency alerts, Therapy speak

Episode Date: April 22, 2023

A second woman has come forward alleging that she was raped by two male colleagues when she worked at the Confederation of British Industry. Anita Rani speaks to the Guardian journalist who uncovered the story, Anna Isaac.Is 'therapy speak' making us selfish? The language of the therapist’s couch has slowly seeped into everyday life, particularly online where words like ‘boundaries’, ‘self-care’ and ‘narcissist’ are increasingly common. But when it comes to friendships, is the idea of self-care making us give up on them too easily? Sociologist and writer Amy Charlotte Kean talks to Nuala McGovern about how our relationships are being affected.The Secret Life of Bees was a New York Times bestseller for more than 125 weeks and was made into an award-winning film. Now the book has been adapted by Lynn Nottage, a playwright and screenwriter, for the stage. Anita Rani talks to Lynn, the only woman to have won the Pulitzer prize for drama twice, about her adaptation.As the government prepares to launch the first nationwide test of a new emergency alert system on our smartphones on Sunday 23 April, domestic abuse charities are concerned about the potential risk to those in abusive relationships. Nuala McGovern speaks to Ellie Butt, Head of policy, public affairs and research at the charity Refuge.Anita Rani is joined by Maggie Murphy, the CEO of Lewes Football Club. Maggie featured on our Power List highlighting 30 women working in sport in the UK. Maggie discusses why the club is so unique and how women’s football should grow.Have you been watching Race Across The World? For its third series those involved are travelling from West to East Canada. Nuala McGovern talks to the only all-female team taking part - Cathie Rowe and Tricia Sail - two best friends, both in their late 40's who set out on a journey of a lifetime.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. This is where we gather together the best bits of the programme from the week just gone and package them all together just for you. You're welcome. Coming up, the most produced US playwright, Lynn Nottage, on her latest adaptation, The Secret Life of Bees, and her career so far. It's been a battle of attrition and just pushing back and pushing back and saying, I belong here. And I'm sorry, but oh no, you know what? I'm not sorry.

I am going to take up some space. Plus, the only all-female team from the current series of Race Across the World will tell us how they got through their journey across Canada. And how much does therapy speak feature in your life? Is it making us a more selfish society? We'll hear from an expert. What might happen if everyone's being told to be selfish, set boundaries, prioritise self-care, is that we all end up in silos. Only thinking about ourselves and not thinking about the social context that we all end up in silos, only thinking about ourselves and not thinking about the social context that we exist in. That's the author Amy Keene. More from her a little later on. So put the kettle on, grab a comfy spot and settle in. Now, just yesterday, The Guardian revealed that another woman has alleged that she was

raped by two male colleagues when she worked at the Confederation of British Industry. This is the second woman to allege she was the victim of rape at the influential business group. It's been a busy week for the CBI and for Anna Isaacs, city editor at The Guardian, who first revealed the allegations. Well, I spoke to Anna yesterday, and she started by explaining exactly what's been going on. I mean, lots of people won't know what the CBI is.

So it's the Confederation of British Industry. It's arguably the most prominent business lobbying group in the UK. It claims to have 190,000 members and to be the voice of business. A few weeks ago, I started reporting about allegations of misconduct, including sexual harassment and sexual assault. Since I've started reporting on this, more sources have come forward, either women describing what has happened to them or sources describing how complaints were handled at various stages. And the latest report describes two things, really. So the first is that a woman has told The Guardian that she believes she was raped by two male colleagues while working at an international office of the CBI.

And the second is that sources familiar with HR processes at the CBI claim that there was an allegation of someone being stalked by a male colleague in 2018. That complaint was upheld by the CBI, but that the woman was discouraged from going to the police with her complaint, which is something the CBI has said that it does not recognise. Only that last point that she was discouraged from going to the police. But these are now in addition to more than a dozen women who have spoken to The Guardian about experiences in which they claim they were the subject of sexual harassment or sexual assault. What can you tell us about the woman who's come forward alleging that she was raped by two male colleagues? So she worked for one of the CBI's international offices. We're out of respect for her anonymity. We're not saying which office that was and we're not saying which year this was. But she's described coming round from being unconscious, having been out and having some drinks

and various physical signs suggested to her that she had been raped. And she came round and two of her male colleagues were in the room with her. And she's sort of explained in her own words how she feels about it, why she's talking about it and what she thinks should have been done and what wasn't done. And specifically, she felt that she didn't have somewhere, she has nowhere to turn is a language that she's used to describe how she feels the CBI handled it, because she felt that there wasn't ready access to HR support

for women working in international offices specifically. So that's one of the reasons that we reported her claim, because it describes an issue there. Where was the HR reporting line for her to speak to? How could she escalate her complaint? And how could she have the confidence that it would be handled correctly? I read the article, and something that jumped out for me was the woman said that she hopes her colleagues can understand why she's come forward. And that really struck me because that really speaks about really what prevents women that she feels that she has to even say that, that she hopes her colleagues understand. Yeah. And while obviously it's not my place to speak for her, what I can describe is how she's explained herself to me.

And what she's said is that, you know, she thinks people at the CBI, men and women, do really great work. It's been a really, really tough time for a lot of people working at the CBI with these allegations coming out bit by bit. But that she feels it's important to understand why she felt let down, because only then can you try and create an environment where it is safer for women to feel more confident in the workplace and to have lines to report out if something does go wrong. She's very clear that she doesn't blame the CBI for what she alleges was a rape, but that she felt she does blame them for the fact that there wasn't a good place for her to turn to.

Well, the CBI say they've begun what they refer to as a root and branch review of its culture. Well, what does that actually mean? So their description of it is that they're going to look into their HR practices. They're waiting for a report from a law firm. They hired an independent law firm, Fox Williams, to investigate these set of allegations. Not the latest, although they may now include it within the scope of that investigation. But the idea is that through that investigation, they will work out where they might have had problems with their processes and try and address those essentially. So that's my understanding of what they mean. On the Today programme this week, the former CBI director Tom Danker said he's been made a fall guy for an organisation rocked by controversy.

What was the response from the CBI? So Tony Danker, the former Director General and Brian McBride took quite different positions. What they described was Tony Danker felt that he had been thrown under the bus, that his words suggested that he felt he had been made a fool guy for what has happened at the CBI. More broadly, referring to allegations that weren't about his conduct. Brian McBride said also on the Today programme that he felt that Mr. Dank Dank had been selective in how he characterised his dismissal. So it's fair to say that that sort of outlines a pretty uncomfortable situation for the UK's most prominent business lobby group, where you've got their president and their former director general in sort of a war on words on the national broadcaster.

And I think it reflects the challenges the institution faces right now. Now, your initial reports, well, we know that you've talked to the woman who's alleging rape and a stalking claim from 2018. And then dozens more women have been victims of various forms of sexual misconduct at the CBI. Can we expect more women to come forward? I don't know is the honest answer to that. It's been a fairly extraordinary experience for me

to have so much feedback. Sometimes you put out news reports and you don't hear from anyone. Sometimes you put out news reports and you get a lot, a lot of messages. Obviously, we've had to go, it's not just people getting in touch with me. There's a reporting process. I have to interrogate everything. But it's been extraordinary to have,

I've spoken to more than 35 people, current and former, who've worked at the CBI. And so it's certainly been an extraordinary time to be reporting on it. The journalist Anna Isaac speaking to me there and the CBI President Brian McBride said in a statement, these latest allegations put to us by The Guardian are abhorrent and our heart goes out to any women who've been victims of the behaviour that is described. While the CBI was not previously aware of the most serious allegations, it is vital that they are thoroughly investigated now

and we're liaising closely with the police to help ensure any perpetrators are brought to justice. Now, is therapy speak making us more selfish? The prescriptive language of the therapist's couch has slowly seeped into everyday life, particularly online where words like boundaries, self-care and narcissist are increasingly common. Is the idea of self-care giving us an excuse to be selfish a bad friend?

Well, Amy Keene is an author and CEO of social learning company Good Shout, who's been talking about this to her followers. She joined Nuala to explain why she thinks therapy speak is so damaging. I think there's two very big problems that are happening concurrently that I don't think bode well for society. So first of all, we have the quite rapid increase in use of pop psychology jargon by people who aren't trained psychologists. And then the second issue that's happening at the same time is that you have people increasingly using self-care as an excuse to be selfish. And I think both of those things happening at the same time

is meaning that everyone is beginning to consider themselves the main character, not just in their own lives, but in society. And so what might happen if everyone's being told to be selfish, set boundaries, prioritize self-care, is that we all end up in silos, only thinking about ourselves and not thinking about the social context that we exist in. So I know you call this the life coachification of relationships. Yeah. But many would say, you know, having those boundaries or being able to articulate them can be wonderful. And particularly women and girls who can be conditioned to sometimes look after other people's needs before their own and be people pleasers, for example. So I know you're, I can see you're dying to jump in. Go on.

I think the problem with human beings is that we will always take things too far. I think that's the problem. So I think society's more mature conversations around mental health are absolutely needed. And they probably saved a lot of lives. I think about my parents' generation, my mum in particular, ever mentioning your emotions was a terrible thing to do. And with my dad, he would never discuss his emotions. But I think what we've done is we've taken it too far. And this is human nature. We'll exploit concepts, politics, money, anything in order to serve our own needs. So you feel like the pendulum has swung too far?

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it's probably because, you know, excuses like I need to protect my boundaries, I'm not coming to this party today, it's called self-care. Okay, well, let's take that one because that's when people flake. Yes, absolutely. And some people have more of an issue with it than others. But what about between relationships? Is this just a way perhaps of avoiding confrontation

or that conflict? And instead, it's kind of easier to say, oh, you know, I need to take some time for myself or I'm sorry, I have to fill my own cup before, you know, my cup needs to be full. Isn't that what you say? Before you can then help others. But you laugh.

I mean, it can be kind of a very intense world that we live in, be it social media or otherwise, and that people do need to protect that space and friends, whatever, might be a longtime friend, but maybe they're taking too much. Is that not a valid? lost the art of disagreement. I think we're too scared of confrontation as a society. But I think the problem here is that people are leaving it too late to discuss their mental health. So if, for example, if you cancel on the day, it probably means that you've been feeling a bit rubbish for a while. So it's a party or a social engagement. We're really bad as a society about talking about our emotions when it's a really good time to talk about them which is early on so normally I mean you see it with burnout culture people will wait until they're the most stressed they've ever been and then and then they'll talk about it right at the last minute and I think we need to get much better at talking about our emotions and our

struggles and admitting to that weakness in inverted inverted commas, the fact that we're fragile on an always-on basis and just being more honest about it rather than using jargon. So is it the jargon you particularly have an issue with? Despise the jargon. Okay. Listen, here's a couple of messages that have been coming in. My childhood best friend called me,

and excuse my language here, listeners, a bitch for spending time with other friends, which ultimately led to our tumultuous breakup last year. I don't see much hope for change or empathy from my friend. It's hard, life going on without her and a part of me may never get over our friendship, but she makes me feel unsafe. So I cannot have her in my life anymore. I just have to comfort myself by reminding myself it's the best thing I've ever done.

Since the break, the way I see everything, including myself, has changed and I've grown immensely from it. And I've seen that with some of this therapy speak, particularly that term unsafe. I think it's just another way to say that you don't like someone, which feels so much harsher. So I think often we're using this jargon as a comfort blanket to avoid the real truth.

I've um expunged people from my life just because I didn't like them anymore that's the reality oh so because my next question was if you don't feel good with a friend shouldn't you put yourself first or you know weed the social garden as I heard somebody quite harshly put it particularly post pandemic or during the pandemic yespandemic or during the pandemic. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I think during the pandemic,

we all took stock of our lives and realised what we wanted and what we didn't want and who was there for us during that time. I absolutely applaud people who'd make the decision to let someone leave their lives because they're not making them feel great, but to blanket that in quite... So it's the euphemism that is annoying you. Yeah. But also, I want to pick up on something

that was in the email. I think, again, when you're not a qualified psychologist to use language like narcissist, sociopath, without really knowing what those words mean, or what those concepts entail. We've got to the point now, where anyone we don't like is a narcissist, even though only 5% of the population have narcissistic personality disorder. So I think mental health is not only being used as a comfort blanket, but it's also the language is being weaponized, which I think is also quite dangerous. Here's another one. I am a 22 year old who is completely exhausted with my peers self-diagnosing themselves with mental health issues. I feel it is incredibly limiting and prevents them from stepping outside

of their comfort zones and growing into fully formed adults. I mean, that is interesting because at the other stage, of course, a lot of people are being encouraged to really explore their mental health and to be very open

about mental health issues. So what a tightrope to try and walk. Absolutely. And this is why, you know, everyone's a therapist these days. Everyone's a life coach these days. Instagram is filled with 24-year-old life coaches telling other people how to live. I think that's the dangerous part.

It's the same with the life coach space. The lack of regulation can actually be quite damaging because people are convinced they have anxiety, they have trauma, when in reality they may not. Or they may. Or they may, in which case they should see a qualified psychotherapist. Okay, so you're also into the fact that it's not professionals that are putting this message out. And do you think it's really diffuse, quite pervasive? Yeah, I think it can get to a place where in society,

we've been selfish for millennia, but I think we could be getting to a place where in society we've all we've been selfish for millennia but I think we could be getting to a place in society where everyone is so obsessed with themselves that they forget about everyone else and I think there's a balance I think that's what we need to be mindful of always striking the balance. Amy Keane author and CEO of Good Shout speaking to Nuala and there were loads of you getting in touch with your own thoughts on this. Roz said, I was a counsellor for many years. It's important to be kind and respectful to ourselves at the same time as being kind and respectful to others. And Elizabeth also got in touch and she said, as a qualified clinical psychologist, I agree with your speaker that we've

swung too far and are at risk of becoming selfish as a society. Now the most produced playwright in the US and the only woman to have won the Pulitzer Prize for drama twice, playwright Lynn Nottage has adapted Sue Monk Kidd's popular novel The Secret Life of Bees for the stage. The book was a New York Times bestseller for more than 125 weeks and was also made into an award-winning film in 2008. It tells the story of a pair of young women, one black, one white, who run away from their small town in South Carolina in 1964 and take refuge in a remote honeybee farm

against the backdrop of a country divided by the passing of the Civil Rights Act in the same year. Now made into a musical, it's just opened at the Almeida Theatre in London, and Lynne joined me in the Woman's Hour studio earlier this week and told me what the play is about. It is a coming-of-age story, but it's also a story that's very much about healing

and community and resilience. It centres around two young women who are fleeing a brutal situation, one white who has an abusive father and harmed her mother in an accident. And the other is a woman who works in her service, Rosaline, who's black, who in the wake of the Civil Rights Act decides that she is going to register to vote. And on her way to vote, she is brutally beaten by two white men. And so the two young women find themselves having to flee their circumstances. And they land at this mystical,

wonderful sanctuary, which is a bee farm that's run by three self-possessed, beautiful black women. We're going to talk about them. Who are they? August, May and June, the young women who they find themselves in a refuge with. Yeah, August, May and June, the young women who they find themselves in a refuge with. August, May and June are educated black women in South Carolina in 1964 and who, against odds, have created a space, a business where they can thrive. And in many ways, you know, they're radical in that they've created their own religion. They've created their own means to sort of transcend their circumstances. And this provides them with a refuge. Yes. It's set just as the Civil Rights Act had been passed by Congress. What impact did the passing

of that law have? Well, I think the Civil Rights Act was really a turning point because it legally dismantled segregation, even though it would take some time for it to be enacted, as we know that the civil rights movement continued much through the 1960s into 70s. And even now, we're grappling with voting rights issues. And it opened the door for many people, particularly in the South, to vote for the very first time. Why did you want to tell this story? You know, I read the book many, many years ago, I think when it first came out. And I remember getting to the end and just bursting into tears and having a very visceral response to

the way in which these women were able to build a community. What did it tap into? You know, it just tapped into this sense that in order for us to move forward and survive, we really have to figure out how we're going to help each other. You know, it's really, I also responded when I was contemplating writing this as a musical to the fact that the book sang, that there was this lyricism and, who's the composer, Susan is the lyricist, first sat down, we were trying to figure out, okay, where does this book sing? And we decided that we're going to go off on our own, and then form lists of 10 places. And when we came back, I think that our lists were exactly the same, except for maybe one place. And I thought, oh, you know, that speaks to sort of the nature of the narrative that there are places that just demand to be examined in a more expansive way.

And that's the beauty of a musical. And I think why it lends itself so nicely to telling the stories of novelists is that you can dive into some of the interiority of the characters, that you can tell their stories expansively in ways that don't feel self-conscious, but would if they were straight plays. What were the challenges of creating a musical? You know, adaptations are always challenging because you're basically being asked to move into someone else's house and rearrange their furniture and you have to be really careful about how you do it and very sensitive. And it's a bit of a daunting task, particularly when you're dealing with a book,

a novel like Secret Life of Bees that is so beloved and so many people have read. And so when we were approaching it, we did it very carefully and very intentionally and very lovingly. And I think one of the blessings is that we had the opportunity to talk to Sue Monk Kidd. And she said, I've written the book and I'm really open to seeing how you interpret it. And she gave us her blessing to really take a different journey. And we did make some choices that are very different than what happens in the book. Well, if you hand your novel over to you, Lynn, you know, it's going to be in safe hands. So where did your inspiration to want to become a playwright come from and work in theatre?

You know, that's a big, wonderful question. And I actually contemplate it every year in a different way, because I think that I'm still trying to figure out like, why am I a playwright? And I think it really comes down to when I was a child, I'd come home from school, and I'd enter our kitchen, where there was this big orange famica table, and my mother was a schoolteacher. And inevitably, she'd have all of her friends who were also school teachers or public servants in some way and my grandmother, who was a great raconteur, and they'd be sitting around that table with an enormous jug of Mondavi red wine. And they would tell stories and share their experiences, probably from three o'clock until six o'clock

when it was time for them to go home to their own families. And I think that that became my first theatre space, the first place in which I could immerse myself in storytelling and understand sort of that communal exchange that is so significant to the ways in which we tell our narratives in theatres. And you particularly tell the story of marginalised women. Where does that come from? Well, I think that the women who were sitting around that table, my mother's friends, my mother, my grandmother, who were these incredibly self-possessed, very smart political women, never had the opportunity to tell their stories on the larger stage. When I went to theaters, which I did quite a bit as a child

because my parents were very invested in the arts, I'd sit there, the lights would go down, but very, very rarely did I see women who looked like me standing center stage. Yes, you occasionally saw black women on the periphery and aspects of black women's lives. But very rarely did we stand center stage. And just I want to tell this story really quickly when I wrote Ruined. Yes. Which is about gender specific human rights abuses in the Congo. And there's a woman who is Mama Nadi, who's the central character. And the

woman who was playing her would always move everywhere around the stage, except for center stage. And we kept saying, it's like, you can take up space. This is your story. And what we realized is that she was not used to doing that as an actress. She was always asked to step to the side, step back, you know, but never to step into the center of the spotlight. And I think one of the reasons I tell stories is because I want to see her center stage every single time. Yeah, great story. And, you know, she's probably not used to it as an actress. Yes. But even as a woman. Yes. And I think, you know, there's probably lots of women watching that who can relate. Yeah. Thinking

about it, you know, we've just never felt that we can take center stage. Our stories don't belong center stage. Yeah, which is something that I was told throughout my career for many, many years. And, you know, it's been a battle of attrition and just pushing back and pushing back and saying, I belong here. And I'm sorry, but oh, no, you know what? I'm not sorry. I am going to take up some space. I mean, you've kicked the door down, basically, because you're currently the most produced playwright in the US. For someone who's saying, you know, you want to tell the story of marginalized women,

you are a marginalized woman or have been historically. And now here you are as the most produced playwright in the US, the only woman to have won these two Pulitzer Prizes for drama. That must feel pretty amazing. Yeah, it's kind of surreal. And I kind of pinch myself every day and ask myself, well, how did I get here? Yeah. What do you think about that? You know, I'm incredibly tenacious.

I've worked very hard. It hasn't been a simple journey. And I think that one of the reasons perhaps the most produced playwright is that I'm really invested in telling stories about multiculturalism in America and placing different types of people in proximity. And I think that that's not something that people are used to encounter. But I think it's a conversation that's really important for us to be having at this moment in our culture. Absolutely. Why? Well, because we've certainly seen over the last five years that we've become so fractured across economic and racial lines, and that there's so much healing in the United States that has to go on. But we really don't know how to do it. I mean, we're fumbling. And I feel like that gap is growing wider and

wider. So where do you get your energy from? Where do you find your joy to push forward? You know, I'm an eternal optimist. And despite everything that happens, I really can't explain is that I am a glass half full person and that I just am always looking for places of beauty and places where I can find joy. And I think that most recently I've become very invested in telling stories that are about healing. I mean, Secret Life of Bees is certainly an example of that. But more recently, my play Clydes, which is going to be coming to London later this season. But I just think it's really important for us, particularly now when we're all healing from so many different wounds, to figure out how we can, as a culture, come together and support ourselves. You know, at the end of one of my plays, Clydes, someone says, well, what is the message? I always say I'm not a message playwright, but the message is

that everyone has something to contribute. And I think that that's true of Secret Life of Bees and we forget that. We forget when we close our borders and disinvite people that those people are really necessary because I think cultural collisions are where innovation happens. You know, we never know what's going to happen when that Mayan woman, you know, has a conversation with an African-American man from Mississippi, what that conversation is going to yield and how the world is going to look different after they make something together. The amazing Lynn Nottage there

and The Secret Life of Bees is running at the Almeida Theatre in London until the 27th of May. Still to come on the programme, one of the legends from this year's Woman's Hour Power List, the CEO of Lewis Football Club, the first club in the world

to have equal pay budgets for women and men. Imagine that. Plus, the only all-female team who've just come back from being on the latest series of Race Across the World. And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day

if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. All you need to do is head to BBC Sounds and search for Woman's Hour and here's the best bit, it's free. Now what are you doing tomorrow afternoon at 3pm?

Be warned, whatever you're doing, your phone will make a loud alarm noise. It's the first nationwide test of a new emergency alert system that the government are carrying out. In the future, it could alert people to floods, severe weather or even violence in the area. But domestic abuse charities are concerned about the potential risk to those in abusive relationships. Ellie Butt, head of policy, public affairs and research at the charity Refuge, told NULA why they're so concerned.

So we're worried about survivors of domestic abuse that have a hidden phone or a secret phone. And this is quite common because of a rise in what's termed technology facilitated abuse, where perpetrators might have cloned a phone and be monitoring all usage. They might be checking who a woman's calling, what website she's going on. So that can be really difficult for a woman to keep in touch with family and friends, or perhaps she wants to work with a specialist domestic abuse organisation, plan to leave, find out what her options are. So women sometimes have a secondary phone that's hidden from the perpetrator, and the alert could alert the perpetrator to the fact there is a phone in the house. So it's really important that women who are at risk because of their hidden phone know how to turn off the alerts and turn those off before the test on Sunday afternoon. And that's why you're here. So what's exactly expected to happen on Sunday and what are you advising people?

So on Sunday at 3 p.m., there'll be a siren type noise that will go onto all phones that are connected to 4G or 5G. The alert will make a sound even if they're on silent or do not disturb. So these can be switched off. And there's lots of detail about how you can do this for different providers on the Refuge website. But in summary, you need to go into your settings, search for emergency alerts, and then toggle off emergency and severe alerts, and then it won't make a sound and you're if you've got a device that you really don't want to be discovered by someone in your home then it won't make a sound the cabinet office have just told us this um let me see the alert goes out as a signal sent from mobile masks if a phone is switched off or on flight mode then

it won't receive the signal however because the signal will continue to be broadcast for up to 30 minutes, if a phone is switched back on in that time, then it will receive the alert. If the alerts are disabled on a phone or remain switched off for longer, then it will not receive it. Yeah, so we're advising survivors of domestic abuse with a hidden phone to switch them off because, of course, the test, we know when that's going to be and that's really well publicised. But the point of this system is to warn people about emergencies. So in future, these alerts, we won't know exactly when they're coming, but there might be a flood in a particular area or some other issue that the government want to alert us to. So if you are at risk, because you've got a hidden phone, we really advise you to switch

them off. So this isn't really just about the emergency alert system this time. It could be any time. Absolutely. The Cabinet Office have launched this programme so they can alert us to emergencies in particular areas. Of course, this is really important. And most survivors will have a primary phone as well that they will receive these alerts on. But what we're really concerned about is these hidden phones that women are using for their safety or so they're not so isolated. And that could be a real risk if perpetrators discover that women have a secret phone. So we're urging them to switch those off. And there's lots of help and support if they need it. And Ellie, I mean, do you think that message is getting out?

I know you're here and talking about it today, but, you know, sometimes these, even about the emergency alert system, it may not be that everybody's copped it. Absolutely. That's a real risk, a real concern. So we're doing what we can to promote the fact that this test is coming and these tests can be, the alerts can be switched off if you need them to. And we really urge the government to keep promoting this message as well,

that they can be switched off if they're going to cause you a risk of harm. Ellie Butler, Head of Policy at the Charity Refuge. And if you are concerned, you can find help and advice on domestic abuse and what to do if you have a hidden second phone on our website. Now, yesterday I was joined by a change maker from our Women's Hour Power List which is celebrating the 30 most powerful women in sports in the UK right now. Maggie Murphy is CEO of Lewis Football Club, the first club in the world to have equal pay budgets for women and men. She's also part of the leadership team at

Equal Playing Field, a non-profit organisation set up to challenge gender barriers in sport. I spoke to her about how she feels being on the power list. It means a lot. As a listener to your programme, honestly, it was very humbling. And yeah, I'm still flabbergasted really that I'm here. Well, you absolutely deserve to be there. Let's talk about lewis fc why is it such a unique place wow i don't really know where to start um but let me go back to the fact that the club nearly went into administration about 12 years on the back of the financial crisis and at that time six very special people local fans took the club into fan ownership so we're 100 fan owned at first there were just six people and then it was 60 people and then 600 people and today we've got 2,400 owners all around the world

from Kazakhstan to Kuwait you know Mexico the US all over and those people become fan owners because they believe in the principles and values well Well, that's passion, isn't it? Yeah. And it's something really striking when those owners around the world really feel connected. It shows that we've built something really positive and principled, I guess, if they have never been to the dripping pan. What's the connection with people around the world connecting to? I can imagine, I can understand why the local community want to. But how are you tapping into people globally yeah and I think a lot of this comes down to what happened in 2017 and that is when the club took the decision to split revenue equally between the men's side and the women's side and became the first club in the world there is now another club

in Lesotho that has equal budgets for their men's and women's teams you know following in our footsteps which is wonderful to see the impact that you can have as well. But I think that that idea around equal pay, that transfers into equal treatment and equal value, that now, that resonated with people around the world. So those people felt like me. When I first heard that Lewis was doing this, I wasn't connected to the club, but I became an owner.

I clicked three times. I thought, finally, here's a club that will treat me with value and respect if I show up as a fan, if I want to buy something from the shop, if I was even a player, that I might be treated with that equal value and respect. And I think that's what people around the world resonate with. There is there's lots to love about football, but there's also lots that people don't like about football and I always say I don't judge anyone if they don't like football because there is so much to dislike about it and I guess we're just trying to prove that it's possible to create a football club that is for the whole of community not just half of the community and it can be ethical and transparent and accountable and talk with fans and listen and try to change so I think that's what we're trying to create yeah and people buy into that yeah not alienating and tapping into as you said people's values yeah and they they want to join you um how did you end up

working there because previously you'd had a very different career hadn't you working in international relations yeah that's right so actually my background is in anti-corruption and human rights and I always say that you know I never wanted to work in football. I never would have imagined myself being the CEO of a football club. And in fact, growing up, if I was just allowed to play football, I would never be a CEO today. There were so many barriers and blockages that were put in front of my path. And I'm coming from a relatively privileged background, you know, playing football in the UK. You wanted, you played? Yes, I played myself, you know, and I'm coming from a relatively privileged background you know playing football in the UK. You wanted you played? Yes I played myself um you know and I played uh wherever I could but I spent

a lot of time overseas as an adult you know I lived in Tanzania and Rwanda and Senegal you know anywhere I went I always found a team I think that sometimes we think the women's football is new it's only just popped up but it's been around for decades and it's just that it's never had the visibility so for me I was able to see the barriers that were being put in place in front of all women. It doesn't matter if you're an elite player or a grassroots player, whether you want to play for fun, whether you want to see how great you can be. There were just these constant barriers. And I think I just got very frustrated, you know, around the time that I stopped playing competitively. Which was when? How old?

So in my early 30s. Yeah, it used to be you played for a while. Yeah, and it was at that time that I thought, I kind of took a moment to reflect and look back and thought, why was it so difficult? Why did we get the terrible referees, the really bad pitches, the hand-me-down kit that didn't fit? Why did our football associations stop us from playing in tournaments or you know

all kinds of things that would happen and I realized this is all about power and who has the power and how they use it and I think there was a combination of you know a FIFA corruption scandal me working in anti-corruption me stopping playing that just made me think hang on a sec this is all about governance you know a little bit about this. If not you, then who? Amazing. And so then you got the power. And then, yeah, I figured that, you know, I couldn't shy away from it anymore. I became pretty active and connected by chance with a brilliant woman called Laura Youngson. And is that significant that it was a woman?

Well, absolutely, because she is even far more braver than I am. She was the one that had this idea about climbing a mountain and trying to do something exceptional. Kilimanjaro, right? That's right. And we had all, I guess, by this time I'd lived overseas, I had international connections. I met Laura and Erin and suddenly the three of us were kind of concocting this great idea to do something that people could not take away from us as being a B version of sport. You know how women's football and women's sport is often seen as this kind of separate category that is not quite also ran. And so setting a Guinness World Record at the top of Mount Kilimanjaro for the highest altitude football match ever played. I've never been done before.

Has never been done since. For a reason, probably. I mean, I've climbed that mountain. You can't even breathe up there. How did you manage it? It was tough. It was really, really tough. I think that because we were climbing for something other than ourselves, it made it easier in some of those darker moments.

But once we were at the top, I think, you know, that's when we laid out this full-size football pitch. We had to have FIFA-approved goals. We had to have FIFA officials. So all the officials were women as well, including a woman from Rwanda who then went out to the Qatar Men's World Cup just before Christmas as well. So everyone's had these incredible trajectories

after setting this incredible Guinness World Record. And yes, the game was terrible. You could barely breathe. But it didn't matter. victories after setting this incredible Guinness World Record. And yes, the game was terrible. But it didn't matter. But it was the what you did. It was the significance of it. Did you feel powerful? At the final whistle? At the final whistle? Yes, felt powerful because it was a nil nil draw. But if we were celebrating as though we'd won the World Cup because we had done this remarkable thing that no one could take away from us and I think we thought that was the thing that was the remarkable thing but it was only the start and since then we've done we've all gone on to do incredible things um and really started to change the world of football yeah make a change so what what have you achieved during your time at Lewis

well gosh um so I joined Lewis in 2019 and I think think at the time the club had all these ideas and ambitions. You know, we had this focus on equality, but it probably needed somebody to figure out how to make it work. And so over the last four years, I've been trying to figure out, OK, what do you need to put in place? Some of this stuff is really boring, like policies and processes and frameworks. And how do you get things to function? Important stuff, though. Someone has to do it it is super important um but you know since that time we've increased the sponsorship by 21 times you know we've managed to bring in big big partners like lylan scott the fashion brand or and how have you done that because that's the thing that comes up time and time again

the money is there the backing do you get how do you get the sponsorship? You need the kind of finance for the women's game. Well, I think number one, we have a personality. So brands are looking for a club with a personality will kind of gravitate towards us. There has to be a trust. And I think that it took us a few years to prove that we were being serious about equality. It wasn't just the wear a t-shirt campaign. It was something that was ingrained into everything we do. But the other thing we really focus on is our match day experience. So because we play in our own ground, we're not, most women's teams rent another ground. So they don't actually own the food outlets or the security staff. So we can pour love into our home ground. And I can't control what happens on the pitch, but I can control to an extent the match day experience. So by focusing on having brilliant food, having brilliant drinks, I just need to make those people come back.

And our attendances are great. And we've created this vibe, almost like a party vibe on games where people want to come because I have to diversify all the streams of funding that I can possibly bring into the club. But it's still fragile. And we can't keep up necessarily with the big clubs that decide overnight to allocate resources or to just slide some zeros across the spreadsheet. And that's probably one of the challenges we'll face. As soon as you said delicious food, I was there. You've campaigned at Lewis for years about prize money in the women's game, particularly in the FA Cup. Can

you tell us why you feel it's so important to talk about the discrepancy between the prize money in the women's game, particularly in the FA Cup. Can you tell us why you feel it's so important to talk about the discrepancy between the prize money for men and women? Yeah, so even up to just last year, the prize money, the total prize money pot for women's football was less than 1% of the men's prize pot. And this is important, not just because I need the money to run a club

and I feel like our team, should they progress through the the competition should be you know allocated winnings that are reflective of that achievement but also because of dependency and how it is that we can grow the the game if we're constantly dependent on men's football then we're not going to have the strong personalities or voices such as clubs like Lewis FC and other independent clubs we have a couple of clubs in the championship that are independent women's clubs only but we'll all fall away if we're completely dependent on men's football now with the fa cup prize money we played manchester united in the fa cup quarterfinal just

a couple of weeks ago if we'd won that game we would have won 25 000 pounds if we were men and we won that game it would have been 450 000 pounds if we were men and we won that game it would have been 450 000 crazy and that's not even the biggest discrepancy yeah that 450 000 pounds would mean all my financial concerns for next season are gone yeah but because we're women i have to figure out other ways to scrap and fight and i think that what i find unfortunate is that at the moment the big clubs are not joining us in this fight because actually it doesn't really matter because they've got a lot of money coming in on the men's side anyway that allocate with some resources and I'm saying let us fight for these resources. So where do you

find your resources to battle that fight to continue with that fight? Well through because we have to be innovative creative make our own money I can't rely on any handouts because I mean honestly my job would be so much easier if all I had to do was go to the board and ask for some more money. But instead, I have to think, how can I get people to part with their money to come into the club and to generate what I need? It means that we've got a voice and an independence that allows us to talk about how to improve the game for women, by women, so that it's not just a shadow version of the Premier League that we're creating, but something unique and special. Oh, more Maggie Murphys on the planet, please. The brilliant Maggie Murphy from our Woman's Hour Power List. Now, have you been watching Race Across the World?

It's the BBC One programme where pairs of travellers have to make it to a destination, choosing any route they like, but no flights or phones are allowed. For its third series, those involved are travelling from west to east Canada. No mean feat, as it's the second biggest country in the world. Well, Nuala was joined by one of the pairs, the only all-female team from the series, Cathy Rowe and Tricia Sale, best friends in their late 40s. Tricia told Nuala why they wanted to get involved in the programme. For me, the reason I applied is because I'm losing my eyesight

and eventually I will have no sight. So I kind of want to get all those experiences before I lose my sight. And the only person I would never do it with is Cathy. We are going to grow old disgracefully together and I know that I'll be able to say, will you remember the colour of that, that, that? And I'll be like, yeah, she's like that. So that's the reason that I wanted to do it.

And yeah, so Cathy didn't really know much about the series until we applied. But now she knows it intimately. Cathy, when Tricia came to you, I mean, what was your first reaction? Talk me through that discussion, how you bring it up. Would you like to take part in this crazy TV show? Well, I hadn't seen either of the previous two series, but Trisha and I have done many kind of challenges before. So I was used to her saying, oh, should we do this or should we do that? And normally I would just say, yeah, that sounds like really good fun and sort of worry about the implications of it afterwards.

So when she said to me, do you fancy this? My immediate reaction was, yeah, that sounds amazing. Let's do it. And to be honest, at that point, neither of us had any expectation that we would be selected to do it and you know that going on a tv program just doesn't happen normally so I thought I was fairly safe in saying yeah let's go for it oh yeah I know that when you say something and then you know you're thinking it may not happen but what about when it came through they're like yeah we you've been selected that was really strange actually because Trish obviously we made the application back in 2019 and then we had the pandemic so

the very first time that Trish and I were actually together following that, we'd obviously done video calls. But the first time we were actually together, Trisha had a phone call and it was from one of the casting team. And it was just bizarre. It was almost as if it was meant to be because we hadn't been together for sort of 18 months because of the virus. And then suddenly she gets this call. So it was, I think both of us kind of sat down in complete disbelief, thinking, wow, this is just amazing that they phoned on the day where we're actually sat down together for the first time in 18 months. And then the feelings about taking on this massive challenge, obviously in full view of so many people as you're going to be on television? It was excitement, firstly,

then the nerves kicked in. I do suffer from anxiety because of my eyesight. And so yeah, the nerves kind of really got to me um but because we didn't know where we were going until the day before we went um we we couldn't plan anything we couldn't be excited about it we couldn't be nervous about it we just it was a bit of a numb feeling to be fair um until we got over there and then it was like, we're actually doing this. We're actually on this race, this amazing journey. So, yeah, and we still even now pinch ourselves to think, we've actually done this.

We're on this TV programme. When you're doing the race, when we were actually out there, it was a race. It wasn't a TV show. But now it's a tv show and it's it's very odd feeling um especially when you see yourself on tv it's a bit unnerving yeah how did you find that kathy watching yourself back on tv and some of those probably very intense moments yeah it is it is very alien to us because it's it's not an environment that we're

used to um and you kind of you're over critical I think of of how you look how you sound but I think I just keep coming back to the feeling that I've done this incredible thing with my best friend and no matter anything else we've had that experience um and I was very very lucky and privileged to have it so it's it is weird to see yourself on television um but also seeing it now you can see what the other teams were doing which we didn't know at the time. And also they managed to pick up things that Trish and I didn't realise had happened or that we'd said and that just has us collapsing in groups of people. Which is a common occurrence. It's got to be one for the ages because there was a moment a few episodes ago, yes, spoiler if you haven't watched any the past few weeks, where you had to get onto

a cable car and it was a final step before reaching a checkpoint. Of course, as usual with the programme, you don't know whether you're first or last or somewhere in between. And this was a big fear, I know, for you, Tricia. Cathy was helping you get through it, but relate to our listeners how it felt. Every time I hear that clip or see that clip, I go back to trying to get onto that cable car. It's one of my worst fears. And if I could have walked up that hill, I would have. But we didn't know where we were in the race. So it was kind of, we had to get on it um we were told that it takes four hours to get up that

mountain um or eight minutes in a cable car um so it was cable car it had to be um but without Kathy I don't think I would have got on it but I did conquer my fear that day um but yeah I did cry and cry and scream and I think at one point I said, Kathy, I don't want to die. She was like, no, that's fine. You're not going to die. I was like, if I'm going to die, can I die with you? She's like, yeah, that's fine. So Kathy, talk me through.

I mean, is it that you know Tricia so well that you felt you'd be able to help her through that, which did seem insurmountable to Tricia? I knew immediately that it was a cable car I could see it um and I just thought oh my god how am I going to get her up this thing I I knew that Trish is absolutely petrified of heights and um it was a completely overwhelming feeling for her so I just had to keep talking to her because I had to get her on that cable car. You're in your late 40s now. Where did this friendship start? Tell me a little bit about, you know, how it goes, where it started to get to that moment on the cable car and reaching

the top of the mountain, Tricia. Well, Tricia and I met on my first day at school in Aberystwyth when I was 13. And I was really nervous because I'd been bullied in my previous school and I had no idea what I was walking into. And Trish was just this amazing, free spirit, bit of a rebel um love to laugh um and for me that was the complete opposite to me so I was like a moth to a flame to her I think um and we just developed this friendship over our teen teenage years and I think those years are are really influential in how you develop them as an adult and you live your whole life through your teenage years and we lost touch for a while in those days where you didn't have mobile phones and there was no social media but we got back in touch about 15 years ago and we were determined then not to lose touch ever again so yeah you we we got to know exactly how far we could push each other.

And we used all of that knowledge on this race. So this all, when I was watching it as well, you know, it seems such a supportive friendship and knowing each other really well, Trisha. What does this friendship mean for you? And I know you've talked about there as well. You've discovered that your site is deteriorating and I'm really sorry for you for that. And this is part of what the impetus was in taking part in this particular challenge. But I'd be curious how you would describe the friendship.

She's like my sister. She instinctively knows what and if I need anything and vice versa. I think at one point you saw Cathy kind of have a bit of an anxiety attack. And I instinctively knew that she needed two minutes and then just to sit quietly. So you kind of see that develop as well on the race itself. But she is my rock. She knows myself and my husband and I know her and her family really well. And we are like extended family to each other.

And we all support each other through difficult times. And when I started losing my sight, I obviously had some help from RNIB. But, you know, Cathy was there throughout the whole thing as well as my husband. And she's always been there to support and vice versa. You know, she she she is my rock and hopefully I'm her rock too. Kathy? Absolutely, absolutely. Kathy Rowe and Tricia Sale

and you can catch up with Race Across the World on iPlayer and loads if you got in touch with your own stories of adventures. This one from Aggie. My husband and I travelled overland to China,

Tibet and Nepal in 1987. The journey took six months. We had a budget of about £3,000, obviously no phones, letters being our only contact with home. We hitchhiked from southwestern China to Lhasa, the Tibetan capital, trekked on foot and horseback to Everest Base Camp

and travelled by bus to Kathmandu. Journey of a lifetime. I am so jealous. That sounds epic. And Laura sent us an email saying, my good friend Wendy and I are also travel buddies. We booked a safari in Tanzania, and it was such a wonderful experience. I wouldn't have wild weed in the Serengeti with anyone else. As a Countryfile presenter, a wild weed is actually part of the job description. There you go. Some insider information. That's it from me this afternoon,

but don't forget to join Nuala for Woman's Hour at 10am on Monday. She'll be getting the latest updates on the decision in America over whether or not the abortion pill, Mifepristone, will be banned. The biggest decision over abortion to be made since the overturning of Roe versus Wade last year.

That's all from me. Have a great rest of your weekend. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.