Woman's Hour - Lyra McKee's book 'Angels With Blue Faces'

Episode Date: August 2, 2019

It’s been nearly four months since the young journalist and writer, Lyra McKee, was shot in Londonderry; she had been watching rioting in the Creggan area of the city. She had just written a book called 'Angels With Blue Faces' and a week before she died, had approved the cover for it. Lyra didn’t get to see it published, but this afternoon it will officially be launched in The Linen Hall Library in Belfast, where she did most of her research. Her sister Nichola speaks to us from Belfast. A new survey of older women readers by Gransnet (with publisher HarperCollins) has revealed how they really feel about their portrayal in fiction. Just over half of women over 40 say their age group is portrayed in clichéd roles, and 47 per cent say there’s not enough books about middle-aged or older women. Yet women over 45 buy more fiction than any others, and 84 per cent say they read every day, or almost every day. So how are older women portrayed in fiction? Are we only reading about very stereotypical characters? Are older women being offered the books and characters they really want to read? Jenni is joined by Cari Rosen - the editor of Gransnet, who also runs their bookclub – and by Caroline Lodge who writes a blog about older women in fiction.Yesterday we heard from Judith, a survivor of domestic abuse in a small community in the Highlands. Scottish Women's Aid has launched a pilot scheme called ASK ME to help women like her. The scheme in Scotland builds on the success of Women’s Aid pilots and projects in England and Wales. Kathleen Garragher joined trainers Catherine Russell and Cathie Way out on the road in the Scottish Highlands. They do sessions with members of the community who train as ambassadors listening to women and signposting them to sources of support and information. We also hear from a survivor of domestic abuse we are calling Kelly. Did you know that the first woman governor of a prison in Britain lived within its walls and took her 12 children on her rounds? Her name was Emma Martin and she ran Brixton Prison in South London, in the 1800s. As it celebrates its 200th anniversary we look back at its beginnings as the first British prison just for women and its life now as a resettlement prison for male offenders. We hear from Chris Impey, author of a history of HMP Brixton and to the current Deputy Governor Louise Ysart.Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Nichola Corner Interviewed Guest: Cari Rosen Interviewed Guest: Caroline Lodge Interviewed Guest: Catherine Russell Interviewed Guest: Cathie Way Reporter: Kathleen Carragher Interviewed Guest: Louise Ysart Interviewed Guest: Chris Impey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast on Friday 2nd August. 200 years ago, a prison was opened in Brixton in South London. It was the first to house only women and Emma Barton was its governor. How does it fare today as a resettlement jail for male offenders with a female deputy governor? In the second of our reports on domestic abuse in rural areas, we assess the progress of the scheme run by Scottish Women's Aid called Ask Me. And what do older women like to read?

Women over 40 are the biggest buyers of fiction, but can't find enough stories in which their age group is portrayed accurately. What do they want? Nearly four months ago a young journalist and writer Lyra McKee was shot dead in Londonderry. She had been observing writing in the Cregan area of the city. She'd just completed a book called Angels with Blue Faces, in which she'd investigated the murders in 1981 of an MP, Robert Bradford, and a young man called Ken Campbell. She also looked into rumours of the abuse of boys at her home called Kinkora. She didn't see her work published, but today it will be launched officially in Belfast at the Linen Hall Library where she carried out most of her research.

Her sister Nicola Corner joined us from Belfast. What would have been Lear's reaction to the book being published? Well today she would have been extremely excited. She would have been running about, checking everything, double checking everything. She would have been worried about things that didn't need to be worried about. What sort of things would she have been worried about that she didn't need to be worried about? Well, she'd have been worried about what other people would have thought of her work. She would have been very concerned about that, you know, and she would have been very concerned about that you know and she would have been

worried about um what would happen on social media sites such as twitter afterwards when her book came out because she was very very self-conscious and about her work so she would have been worried about things like that she'd also been worried about my mum and my mum maybe sitting in the room next to the launch while she was doing promotional work and even though she would know that all of our family would be sitting with mum she'd have still been sending messages and phoning mum to make sure that she was all right because she was such a very diligent and caring daughter and she'd have just been worried about everything really. She was just a wee worrywart. You've written the foreword and you say she was haunted by the murders of Robert Bradford and Ken Campbell for years. Why was she haunted by them? Because she really could not believe

that human beings could be so barbaric and she couldn't believe that there was so much, I suppose you could call it, collusion with regard to these gentlemen's murders. She couldn't believe that the state and the authorities that were supposed to protect these people failed to do so, and she felt that these men were failed by lots of different people and that their voice deserved to be heard

and that their story deserved more attention. Why the title, Angels with Blue Faces? She chose that title because one of the people that she interviewed as part of the investigation into the book was a young person who was at one time in Kinkora Boys' home taken to a hotel to be used as a prostitute for other men. And the boy remembered that in the hotel there were statues of angels and he remembered them as having blue faces. So that was why she chose to have that title. How long, Nicola, did it take her

to put all this evidence together that it's so complicated, the stories are so complicated, the sources are so difficult for her to find? Absolutely. It took her quite a long time to get it all together because every time she uncovered one source that led to maybe three or four different sources and then she had to speak to each one and try and collate the information to bring it all together, to create the puzzle that she was building about the truth behind these murders. So, yes, it's an extremely complicated story. And so she would have spent years and years and years actually finding people, investigating people.

She spent 18 months looking for one source alone, you know. So she was really, really dedicated to the story and determined to uncover as much of it as she could with the sources that she was able to identify work with make contact with and a lot of those sources were able to open up further sources to her as well. You mentioned what you describe as stark ironies in the story which link with her murder and its aftermath. You've written that in your foreword. What are they? Well, I don't want to give everything away

or people might not want to buy her book but it begins and it ends in St Anne's Cathedral. I mean, Ken Campbell was 29, Lear was 29. Ken Campbell was killed with a single gunshot wound to the head. So was she. You know, she was standing, feeling quite safe, I expect, beside a police Land Rover, where Ken Campbell was standing beside a police officer whose job it was to protect the Reverend Bradford. You know, the IRA claimed responsibility for those gentlemen's murder,

and the new IRA has claimed responsibility for her murder. You know, it's almost like she has become this story in a way that she put so much time and energy into researching and writing. Now, in her acknowledgements in the book, she writes this, My big sister, Nicola McKee Corner, has been a constant sounding board. Of the two of us, she is the brains. What did it mean to you to read what she'd written? Well, I was blown away.

I was very emotional by it because I would have thought out of the two of us she was the brains so I thought it was funny that she thought that I was the brains you know but absolutely true that I was her constant sounding board but to see that dedication in her book to me was a great testament to our relationship, not just as sisters, but also, you know, as confidants and I suppose me as her guide in many ways. Because you're quite a bit older than Lira. Yes, I'm 15 years older than her. Now, we all know you from when you spoke at Vera's funeral

and received a standing ovation. What do you remember of that afternoon? Well, I remember that I had to put a lot of my attention into not fainting before I even went to speak. And, you know, I was having a little conversation in my head with Lyra as I was focusing on my breathing, saying to her, because I thought I was going to just keel over and die, to tell you the truth.

And I was saying to her, Oh, Lyra, please don't let me die here because it will take attention away from you and this is your day. All these people are here to see you, not to see me dying in the front row. You know, and I was having those conversations with her and focusing on my breathing to try and keep myself from fainting, if the truth be told and after I did speak I could have just collapsed on the floor instead of collapsed beside my mummy you know it was very very very difficult

waiting to do it and then doing it and being part of that whole situation because it's still very unbelievable that she's not going to be here because she was such a big part of my everyday life and I'm just really honoured as well that her funeral tribute was so beautiful and everyone made it powerfully beautiful and you know and that so many people came from

so many places to pay her tribute because it's a great expression of who she was as a person but also an expression of the loving and caring and inclusive soul that she was. How, though, is your family coping with being really in the spotlight, in the midst of your grief? Well, you see, that's why they've given me the role of the representative

so that not everyone would be in the same position in the spotlight because we are a very, very, very private family. You know, we keep everything very close within our our family circle and and we wouldn't be used to um any kind of public attention or or public interest or or anything like that we're just quiet ordinary people who who go about our lives in very quiet and ordinary ways, you know, and I suppose, in a sense, I've been trying to protect them all, in a way, in the same way I would have done for Lyra as well, protect them. How is your mother, Nicola?

She's not great, if the truth be told. She's not great at all. She's struggling greatly to come to terms with her loss. She is absolutely devastated. And, you know, we all cry together, hanging over each other. We're all soaking with tears you know on a daily basis there isn't a day goes by that we can't uh believe what has happened and can't believe that she's not coming back and and just can't believe she's no longer with us because we just all loved her so, so, so much. And my poor mummy is devastated.

She's beside herself because that was her baby. Lear was her baby. And they were so close. You have no idea how close they were. I mean, my mummy would be sleeping in her bed and Lear would be going in at night to check and make sure mummy was OK and to make sure mummy was still breathing and

and then she would go and ring me and and she was just such an attentive caring daughter and you know I mean all of that's obviously missed, in addition to who she was as a person. That's obviously missed. No-one has been charged with her murder. What happens now? Well, the only thing that we can do, really, is wait on the police doing their job. You know, I wouldn't like to be in a situation like thousands of other people in our country

who have never received justice for their loved one's murder. I'm hoping that we don't have to wait forever. I'm hoping we don't have to wait for 40 years. I'm hoping that we will receive justice before my mum takes her final breath because lots of people haven't had that opportunity in this country and it has stayed with them every single day of their life, the fact that their family member hasn't had justice.

Nicola Corner, thank you very much for joining us this morning and I really do hope that book sells well. You did not give away too much. People will want to read it. Thank you very much for joining us this morning. Thank you, Jenny, for inviting me. It's been a pleasure. Now, 200 years ago, a prison was established in Brixton in South London.

In 1853, it was converted into a prison solely for female convicts. And a woman took over as the governor. Her name was Emma Martin. Well, as the prison celebrates its 200th anniversary, it now houses men, and its job is the resettlement of male offenders. Its deputy governor is a woman, Louise Isart, and Chris Impey has written The House on the Hill, Brixton, London's oldest prison. Chris, how did Emma Martin become the first woman to govern a jail? Well, transportation ended in 1852 and suddenly Britain was left with all these convicts, people that they would have sent abroad before, and they didn't know what to do with them. Prisons hadn't housed long-term offenders

before and so among these were a thousand women. Brixton, a compulsory purchase was made by the government and Brixton became the first convict prison for women. There were sensibilities about men looking after women so almost the entire staff apart from the chaplain and the doctor, were women. And Emma Martin became the governor of the prison in charge of 70 staff and 700 very desperate women. What kind of woman was she? She had children and she took them all around the prison. Yes, so we don't know a lot about her before.

She was twice widowed. Her husband, one of her husbands, had been a prison chaplain. She had 12 children aged between six months and 17 years. They lived with her in the prison. And she would take the younger ones among them on her rounds as she went round to look at the prison. From reading her report, she comes across as a very caring person, but very strict as well. She wasn't, she's very prepared to give out the punishments. But she spoke of the

women as wretched creatures, but said she felt her compassion as she would towards her own children. Louise, how do you reckon her job would have compared with what you do now? Hopefully very different. I think that, you know, walking into a male-dominated environment, it's intimidating. And I think that I'm glad that I navigated my way through in 17 years at the prison service about how I handle that. And I think that that helps me guide other female staff in Brixton around how to manage themselves

and particularly their authority in HMP Brixton. I think there's a different authority that everyone has but particularly women have to think about how they walk past the excise yard, how do they walk on the wing, how do they dealise yard. How do they walk on a wing? How do they deal with conflict? How do you do it? I think you have a set of answers that you always respond to. I think that you walk with purpose.

I think that you get very comfortable in the authority that you have developed over time. And I think that, you know, in prisons, we all have different kinds of authority. And I think that you model that personally. Myself, over those years, I've kind of modelled about how I handle conflict and what I'm comfortable in doing. How do I de-escalate? How do I encourage others? How do I empower people to change their lives? But also to the staff group, you know, I'm very open and I like to have a debate about how it is for our staff and just pass on that experience that I've got. What kind of crimes, Chris, would the women in the 19th century have committed?

Because I was quite surprised to find that they often pleaded guilty, thinking they would be sent to Australia, and were rather surprised to find themselves in Brixton. This is what Emma Martin said, that she believed that some of the women had done that. And because they were convicts so serving longer longer sentences they tended to commit more serious crimes so robbery attempted murder murder which most commonly was infanticide at that time so they'd they'd committed very serious crimes for the women prisoners it was the same as the staff, that this was a whole new situation

for them. They had been expecting to start a new life in Australia, and they were very angry about it. A lot of them would protest by ripping off their clothes, smashing windows, smashing up anything that they could find. So Emma Martin certainly had a job on her hands, certainly when she first took over at the prison. Now you are obviously, Louise, slap bang in the middle of London, and it's your job to prepare prisoners for resettlement. How difficult is that when you're in a very busy urban area? I think it's an opportunity. I think that London offers, you know, I'm in the hub of all the employment and uh charities and agencies and

when I first went to Brixton I asked the staff you know what what is it about Brixton that is great and they said well we're in London it's location and we have very very good partnerships you know we're in the last two and a half years we have transformed the prison you know the inspection report shows that and we celebrate being a part of such a diverse community there's quite a bit of baking gets done there is quite a bit of baking and well we have bad boys bakery um and you, that's quite interesting in terms of where the treadmill and the bakery and the bread came from, you know, for so many years ago. And we have the Clink restaurant. So, you know, we have lots of partnerships. So we really strive for when prisoners come into Brixton that they have opportunities and support to change their lives. And I think that we have a high proportion of females, but we are a very diverse culture.

But not prisoners, it's females on the staff. So, yes. No women prisoners. No female prisoners at all. So we have 798 male prisoners. And 36% of our officers are females. And that's quite high in a male prison. But that figure increases as you go up the ladder. So 53% of our middle managers are females

and 67% are senior leaders within Brixton. It's interesting, Chris, because you found that Brixton has overseen the testing of reform in the prison system for quite some time. How did it do that? So, well, when it was a women's prison, that was a classic example. So you had all these convicts. We hadn't held people on a long-term basis before. So they came up with a system of stages,

which would start off with solitary confinement, but then women would go on to work. But then they would be given the opportunity for probation, which was the first time that anything like that had been trialled. Brixton itself was very much seen as an experiment. There was a man called Joshua Jebb who was in charge of the prisons and it was very much seen as a rehabilitative culture and that these women should be given an opportunity for change. They would go on to a refuge at Fulham as well and be given the opportunity to train in domestic service, for example.

It also had the first woman to run a male prison. That was Joy Kinsley, I think, wasn't it? Joy Kinsley in 1986. How did she get on? Sorry, how? How did she get on? She got on very well. She was described to me by an old officer, Desi,

who Louise will know, who was there for many years, as a hyacinth bouquet character. I think that was to do with her prim and properness rather than her airs and graces. She had been governor at Holloway. She came in at a very difficult time. They were renegotiating work contracts with the staff and it was a very male-dominated environment.

Most of the staff were ex-military. There's a very heavy drinking culture, a very heavy Masonic element. And Joy Kinsley came in, had to negotiate with the unions. A grade A governor was another description that another officer gave to me. And don't forget as well, she was dealing with very serious offenders.

IRA members were held in Brixton at that time. So she was a real force, a real trailblazer. Louise, I know drugs have been a big problem across the prison service and you have brought yours down considerably. How have you done that? I think, I thought our inspection reflected this. I think that, you know, we are led by Governor Bamford.

He's one of the best governors I've worked for. And he took very bold decisions in the beginning about when we were at our worst point, probably two and a half years ago. And we've not only tackled the physical security um we test all mail coming in but also for me you know my passion is rehabilitative culture and relationships make a difference so if um we launched our key worker scheme where prisoners have 45 minutes with an officer every week and i think

just having that time having that role model to talk about the issues and why you're using drugs and why you might be you know wanting to gain that is really really important louise is out chris impy thank you very much indeed. And 200th anniversary. Congratulations. Thank you. Now still to come in today's programme, the portrayal of older women in fiction. Why don't we like what's on offer? And the serial, the final episode of Flying Visits. Now, as we heard yesterday, the National Rural Crime Network has discovered

that women who live in the countryside are half as likely to report domestic abuse as women who live in towns and cities. We spoke to Judith who's a survivor of domestic abuse in a small community in the Highlands. Scottish Women's Aid has launched a pilot scheme called Ask Me to help women like her. It builds on the success of Women's Aid pilots and projects in England and Wales. Well, Kathleen Carraher joined their trainers, Catherine Russell and Cathy Way, as they travelled around to do sessions with members of the community who train as ambassadors.

They learn how to listen to women and direct them to sources of support and information. We also hear from another survivor of domestic abuse. We've called her Kelly. How are you? Are you all right? Yeah, yeah. You've got sunshine. Going out to have the cocktails, are we?

Has anybody heard from... No. I'm just going to give you a wee bit of a historical perspective. In 1870, women became legal owners of the money that they earned and the right to own property. In 1895, wife beating is prohibited between the hours of 10pm and 7am. Why do you think that was? So they don't disturb their neighbours. In 1918, some women got the vote if they owned property or they were married to a man.

In 1970... I'm Cathy Way. I'm the Ask Me coordinator for Lochaber Women's Aid. And I'm Catherine Russell, and I'm the Ask Me coordinator for Kessness and Sutherland Women's Aid. What we really want to do with the Ask Me scheme is to recruit people in local communities, particularly in the most rural and isolated areas, to be someone who

can listen effectively to someone who is experiencing domestic abuse, someone who listens without judgment and who can signpost that person to the help that they need. Do you think there are particular reasons for abuse taking place in the Highlands? We know that domestic abuse happens in all communities. It's just that we don't get that many referrals from the very isolated communities. Now, knowing that it happens, but people aren't accessing our services,

means that we need to reach out. Raising awareness. Between us we've kind of got three small countries we're trying to cover. A lot of the villages are quite remote and quite rural and are built from the tradition of old crofting communities and obviously near the coast are fishing communities and if you can imagine ac yn amlwg ymlaen y cwrs yma, cymunedau ffisio. Ac os gallwch chi dychmygu rhywle sydd eithaf isoleiddio, nid oes llawer o gyrff cyhoeddus, yn debyg nad oes ganddo hynod o gysylltiad internet da iawn, sy'n rhywbeth rydyn ni'n ei wneud am ddim arall. Yna mae'r ddewadau hyn a'r bobl sy'n byw yno,

y cymunedau, yn rhaid iddyn nhw fod yn dda iawn o'u cefnogi a'u hyderu. Felly sut ydych chi, ddewadau? Dwi'n dda. Diolch. Diolch. Diolch. Diolch. Diolch. Diolch. Diolch. Diolch. Diolch. self-supporting and self-reliant. So how are the ladies? Not too bad. How are you, Shona? Better be better than she is. Oh, yeah. How's your mum?

I believe there's stigma wherever there's domestic abuse. However, in smaller communities, they may feel that they're unable to share that information, perhaps with neighbours. They feel that whatever happens behind closed doors is other people's business and therefore due to either not being confident about their own response

then neighbours might not say anything at all. Breaking the silence. I think it's a wonderful, wonderful thing. A lot of women would be too frightened to even approach anybody, you know. Yeah, yeah. So it's very difficult to overcome. There'd be percussions if anything got out, you know, or something. And that's why confidentiality is paramount.

Many, many women don't do anything for years and years and years until they feel it's time for them to do something. In that sort of situation of being controlled by someone it's very difficult for them to perhaps get the finance to go to places for help. Yes, if someone did need to say get into Fort William or something like that then we do have a hardship fund so either someone would come out to them so that they didn't need to make that journey welcome back what we're going to do now for our first exercise then is you know that myth that we talked about last

week we talked about the myths we talked about blaming. And one of the things that you hear a lot of people talk about and maybe question is, well, why does she not just leave? My name's Kelly and I'm from Highlands. I've been in the relationship or was in the relationship for about ten years altogether. We'd done good things together. We still went on holidays and, you know, he had this charming,

lovely side to him but also had a very nasty, bitter, jealous, very horrible side to him. He liked drinking and taking drugs. He did hit me, he'd give me a black eye, he strangled me, he ripped my clothes off me. I don't know why, you always take them back. They make it out that you'll never get anyone better than them. Nobody else will ever love you the way he does, but it's not love. But you don't know that. You don't see what everyone else seems to see until you're at a point where my point was when I became a mother. Do you think that because you live in such a small community that it made it more difficult for you to get

help? There isn't a lot of awareness around Fort William I mean it was a friend that told me to come here I didn't know women's aid existed or there was any Help out there for me. So tell me then why you wanted to take part in the Ask Me scheme I've been thinking for a good few months now I want to help people who feel like they don't have anywhere else to go or turn just like I did Because I don't know where I would have been I honestly do not know hand on heart where I would have been if I did not get in touch with women's aid. Awareness needs to be everywhere for these women and children.

Believing, so as ambassadors believing what the survivor is telling you and understanding what Ac yn ymddiriedol. Felly fel cyngor, yn ymddiriedol beth mae'r bywyd yn ei ddweud i chi a'i deall beth mae'r bywyd yn ei ddweud i chi yw'n bwysig iawn. Gan eich bod yn ymddiriedol iddyn nhw a'u gwrando iddyn nhw, yna maen nhw'n teimlo'n fwy hyderus i allu cymryd y cyngor, oherwydd maen nhw'n gwybod mai dyna'r un ymateb y byddant yn ei gael o'r cyngorau. Rwy'n credu mai dyna oedd y peth anodd i mi fod pawb yn meddwl. Oeddwn i'n llyfio neu'n argyfwngu oherwydd roeddwn i'n dda iawn yn cadw'r wyf. Mae'n anodd iawn i rywun sy'n cyfranogol yn fawr drwy'r sefyllfa amgylcheddol ddod i'r ffôn a siarad â rhywun nad ydynt wedi siarad â nhw o'r blaen. through the domestic abuse situation to pick up a phone and to speak to someone they've never spoken to before. And so having someone in the community that they recognise that they've already had the beginnings of that conversation

makes a huge difference for them. I'd like to thank you all once again for being so open. Thank you. Both of you. It's great having you. And that report was by Kathleen Carraher and of course if you want information or support

you can find sources on the Wunza website women over the age of 45 are the biggest buyers of fiction and 84% of us say we read every day but a survey of a thousand women carried out by Gransnet,

together with HarperCollins, has concluded we're not happy with the way we're portrayed in the books we buy. In response, a fiction writing competition has been launched for female writers over the age of 40, featuring a female character in that older age group. Well, what is it we dislike about what's on offer and what actually do we want? Well, Caroline Lodge blogs about older women in fiction and joins us from Exeter. Carrie Rosen is the editor of Gransnet and also runs their book club.

So, Carrie, what did women tell you? I keep saying they, but it's we, isn't it? I have to include myself in this because I'm over 40 so what do we not like we don't like being typecast in in our reading choices any more than we are in real life um certainly when it comes to the book club um I found I was being pitched every book about dementia and nursing homes it's not to say there aren't great books on that I'm thinking of three things about Elsie by Joanna Cannon, which is an excellent example, but it's not what our users want to read.

We want to read about a whole diversity of subjects and genres, just as anybody else does, to be honest. Were there particular characters that have irritated them or indeed irritated you? It's hard to think of very specific characters, but there are certain tropes that are repeated over and over in fiction that we see women stabbing blindly at smartphones because they're over 50, therefore they don't have a clue how to work them.

Older women who are having to ask their grandchildren or their children to help them do something on social media. Again, we have over 300,000 users on GrantsNet. They all know how to use social media. So I think society kind of needs to wise up a little bit about what the modern woman is and what old really is. That is something that we asked as well. What's old? What's middle age?

Because, again, I think, you know, I read something in the paper recently about an elderly woman who turned out to be 60. Well, in our terms, that's barely middle age. And in the survey, people were all adamant that middle age begins at 50. Old is 10 years older than you actually are, and elderly is certainly 80-plus.

Caroline, what characters have irritated you? Oh, well, I'm one of those elderly ones I now discover. I think it's, in some some respects I have a slightly different view to carry because I've been looking at women in fiction who are over about 60. Yeah that's okay that's fine I agree with that. And like her it's the stereotypes and they you know useless at social media and digital mechanisms is a very obvious one. But there are a lot of others. There are like the magical older women who somehow have got a special kind of wisdom,

which they impart usually to the protagonist. They're usually not the main character when they're doing that. Or there are the women for whom no life experiences between the ages about 20 and 60 seem to have had any impact on their lives I realize for some writers it could be quite difficult because they haven't experienced maybe those years but to suggest that one is still act mostly activated by what happened in one's 20s is a little offensive, I think. It all belies the complexity of older age today and some of the really important issues that older women are experiencing, including, given your last item, domestic

violence, I might say. But, Caroline, why do you suppose writers create women who can't operate a computer or a mobile phone and maybe don't have a job in their 60s when that's clearly so often not like life? Well, quite a lot of fiction isn't like life, is it? And it's a kind of signing, I suppose, of age, as is, you know, white hair and knitting. And I don't know.

I'm not too bothered about the books that do exist. I want to see more books published of different varieties. I would really go and push for the variety. So, Carrie, why do you suppose publishers seem reluctant to include female characters over 40? It's very interesting. I read a blog by Faye Walden yesterday in which she said that publishers don't look for older characters

over the age of 40, and they're probably right not to because they're depressing. Although I don't think they're any more depressing than any other age group. Millennials have their issues just as any age does. And she said that it might be middle-aged women who buy fiction, but they don't want to read about older characters. They only want to read about young women.

And I would also argue that that's absolutely not the case. And your survey would absolutely suggest that that is not the case. Absolutely. I mean, what the survey found was that the age of the central character is not the key thing. It's the identifying features. They want to see women that represent them who are older, vital, still having sex, still working. And that's why it's been brilliant to work with HQ, which is the division of HarperCollins we did the research with, because some of the editors were at a conference talking

to aspiring writers only a week ago, and people were coming up to them and saying, well, we've been told we mustn't include any characters over 40. And they were holding up their hands and going, no, no, no, that's not the case at all. So I think it is changing. And it is about time too. Caroline, what are the good examples that you've read? Oh, well, there are lots and lots. On my blog, I've got a list of about 40 really good ones and 40 more that have been recommended by readers. I'd like to pick out three, if that's all right.

Yeah, top choices. Especially as I saw on the survey that 30% of the women questioned got the book got to the book recommendations from the radio so this is an opportunity to plug a few I think my top favorite is Elizabeth Taylor's book mrs. Palfrey at the Claremont because she so closely looks at how the older people in that book in that hotel, the Claremont, have to deal with the problems of old age, especially loneliness, which is a really big issue. Or Penelope Lively's book, Moon Tiger, which won the Booker Prize some years ago, which talks about a woman who'd been immensely successful

and she knows she's still that woman still all the people she's ever been although that's not how she's treated by the hospital staff and a third one which has much moved me is a about a Palestinian woman who really experienced the diaspora of Palestinians and her family, and yet maintains a really strong view, her values really strongly, which is one of the things the survey shows older women want to read. But just to say, I think everybody should be reading about older women, not just older women. We need fiction to show the world in a new way and introduce people to things they may not have thought about.

Carrie, what would be your number one, two and three? Maybe not three. It's difficult. Books that instantly come to mind with great older characters Old Baggage by Lessa Evans. Mattie is an indomitable force and she's absolutely wonderful. A book that we did for Gransnet Book Club which is about a 40

year old which perhaps wouldn't you wouldn't think would be right for our audience but absolutely was because it had so many themes that people identify with was the cactus by sarah hayward um i think everyone recognizes a little bit of themselves in susan green and um the the complexities of the human relationships that she she goes through are something that we can all relate to um if we're going to take an older character, I think Meet Me at the Museum by Anne Youngson is a wonderful book. It's a woman who is finding later in life

that actually her lot is not really what she wants it to be and is exploring ways to, possibilities of changing it, but does she in the end? That's the question. And what about the competition? How do people enter the competition? If you go to GrantsNet, we have on our site all the instructions of what we're looking for,

all the terms and conditions, and exactly how to enter. Entries are open, I think, until the end of September, so you've still got time to get writing. And the writer has to be over 40? The writer has to be a woman over 40. And the central character has to be a woman over 40? The central character just needs to be somebody over 40. One of the central characters it doesn't have to be the only one. And if it's a woman she must be able to use a computer and a mobile phone and have sex and and still be working. Yeah no. All of that. Yes. All of that.

I was talking to Carrie Rosen, the editor of Granzonette, who also runs their book club, and Caroline Lodge, who blogs about older women and fiction. Lots of you got in touch in response to that conversation. Rosemary said this 68-year-old just had to stop her five-mile run to respond on her mobile to the segment on older women and stereotypes. Richard Mills said, I love gruesome murder fiction and would love to see older female detectives like Vera, also older female murderers. Helen McClement said, wonderfully enlightening chat on the representation of older women in fiction.

I would recommend Unsheltered by Barbara Kingsolver, from which I'm still reeling. Wynne Jeffrey said, discussion about older women in fiction. I loved Elizabeth Day's Paradise City, except for a woman in her 50s who served the sort of tea made by my grandmother, born 1905. There was an assumption that this character was typical. She is not. Polly added by email, I found that there are lots of books that are London-centric and middle class. I would love to read books that are set in other areas.

I don't want to read about how hard life is in the North, And Linda Noon said, I'm really enjoying Maeve Harmon's An Italian Holiday. Protagonists are four women, all 69 and over. And Sally in Hazelmere said, I've not read it for a long time, but Doesn't Travels With My Aunt by Graham Green feature a much older woman, sex, etc. I seem to remember enjoying this book. And then Geraldine Fitzgerald said, Elena Ferranti, no one has mentioned her. And a lot of you got in touch in response to Nicola Corner, Learer McKee's sister, speaking about the publication of Learer's book today,

Angels with Blue Faces. Viv Williams said on Twitter, that was a moving, beautiful interview. And Mark Houston said, a great piece of radio. Thanks to Nicola for being able to take part. We'll certainly put in a book order. Today will be painful, but also a time of love. Now do join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour when you can hear the care worker, Caroline,

who was the inspiration behind the serial Flying Visits. You can also hear Gemma Chan on the new drama on Channel 4, I Am Hannah. And endometriosis, that serious and debilitating disease which is suffered by as many as one in ten women. Why is it so often misdiagnosed and how do you learn to live with it? That's four o'clock tomorrow afternoon, Weekend Woman's Hour. Join me then if you can. Bye-bye. Hello, I'm John Ronson, the author of So You've Been Publicly Shamed. This is my journey into the lives of the shamed, people ruined by a badly worded tweet or work faux pas.

Along the way, I turn from being a keen shamer myself into somebody unsettled by this new zeal to judge and condemn, often on very weak evidence. That's So You've Been Publicly Shamed, read by me, John Ronson, and abridged specially for BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.