Woman's Hour - Madonna, Polish elections, Diana Parkes, Unconventional setups

Episode Date: October 16, 2023

The queen of pop returned to London's O2 this weekend for her Celebration Tour, performing more than 40 songs from her four-decade career. During her opening performance on Saturday, 65-year-old Madonna thanked her children for supporting her while she was ill earlier this year with a 'serious bacterial infection' which saw her admitted to intensive care for several days and forced her to postpone the tour. Some of her children then joined her on stage. Emma Barnett speaks to two women who were there - Sabrina Barr from Metro online and Helen Brown, Chief Album Critic for The Independent.Exit polls from yesterday's general election in Poland suggest the governing right-wing Law and Justice Party has lost its majority in parliament. Three opposition groups are predicted to get enough seats to form a government if they can agree a coalition. The biggest of the three is the Civic Coalition, led by the former head of the European Council, Donald Tusk - who has already claimed victory. Women have played an important role in these elections with the issue of abortion taking centre stage since a near total ban was announced by the government in 2021, sparking protests across the country. The BBC's Eastern Europe Correspondent, Sarah Rainsford, is in Warsaw and joins Emma.Diana Parkes, Joanna Simpson’s mother, has campaigned for months to stop the man who killed her daughter, Robert Brown, being allowed out of prison. Halfway through his 26-year sentence for her manslaughter, he was due for automatic release from prison next month. However, it has been announced that the Justice Secretary has blocked this and referred the case to the Parole Board. Diana joins Emma to share her response to the decision.As climate ministers meet in Luxembourg today ahead of the COP28 summit next month in the United Arab Emirates, an exhibition looking at the relationship between women and ecology around the world is running at the Barbican in London. Emma talks to Alona Pardo, the lead curator of RE/SISTERS: A Lens on Gender and Ecology.Do you have an unconventional living arrangement with your partner? Last week we spoke to Caroline and Niel, who remained in the same house after they split up but now Caroline's new partner is living with her ex. It got very complicated! We wanted to see how many of you are in similar situations, and how that has worked. Listener Amy got in touch to say she has been together with her partner Richie for 19 years but they have never lived together, even after they got married. She joins Emma in studio.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. It is the start of another week and I think we could all do with a hit of Madonna, who's in the UK on her latest blockbuster tour and wowing the critics. Whatever she's having, I want it. Madonna, now 65 and having recovered from a recent health scare, is making women and men feel all the feels.

Two women who were there will share all. A tireless women's rights and safety campaigner, Diana Parks, will be back on the programme after a major intervention by the government. And after our conversation last week about unusual living arrangements with partners and ex-partners, one of you, our lovely listeners, contacted the programme about your own setup. And you will be hearing from Amy a little later on. But to pre-see Amy's situation, not to take away from her telling of it, she has been with her partner for 19 years, married for the last five, and they have no plans to live together until maybe when they retire.

That's still being negotiated, I understand. Can you relate? If you would like to divulge anything about your domestic arrangements, who you do live with, who you don't, perhaps you do live with someone who you don't wish to, perhaps there's some sort of arrangement that others find more unusual, whatever it is, how are you making it work or not in your home in terms of your relationships? Do get in touch. 84844.

Quite a few of you got in touch, as Amy did last week, and it'd be great to hear your reflections. I think sometimes you think you're the only person doing something and then you hear someone else and you think, oh, OK, or maybe you hear someone else's story and it gives you an idea. Do get in touch. 84844, that's the number to text. Email me through the Women's Hour website. Or you can use WhatsApp. You can do a message or a voice note on 03700 100 444.

Just watch those data charges. All terms on our website. But as Amy's voice on the programme attests, we do like to hear from you. And we will get you on Women's Hour as and how we can and how you would like to be as well. we will get you on, Womza, as and how we can and how you would like to be as well. You know, you don't always have to leave a voice note, but if you wanted to, it'd be lovely to hear your voice.

So do please get in touch. But first, exit polls from yesterday's general election in Poland suggest the governing right-wing Law and Justice Party, often referred to as PIS, PIS has lost its majority in Parliament. Three opposition groups are predicted to get enough seats to form a government if they can agree a coalition.

The biggest of the three is a civic coalition led by the former head of the European Council, a name you may remember, you may know, Donald Tusk, who had already claimed victory. Women have played an important role in these elections with the issue of abortion taking centre stage since a near total ban was announced by the government in 2021, sparking protests across the country.

The BBC's Eastern Europe correspondent, Sarah Rainsford, is in Warsaw. Sarah, good morning. Welcome back to Women's Hour. Let's talk then about how crucial women's votes were in the outcome of these elections as we're expecting it. Well, I have to say it's not entirely clear. Certainly in terms of the number of women voting, there was a slight, slightly more women voting than men in this election. Some 74 percent versus 72 percent. The argument might be that this was because women were mobilized by many of

the issues that you've just mentioned that we can of course talk about but there is another argument which says there are actually more women in this country than men and that older women in particular there are more of them and they are generally more mobilized and more engaged in the election process but certainly kind of anecdotally I would say that women have been very politically engaged, particularly in the big cities of Poland in the last few years. Abortion has been one of the big issues, women's rights more broadly as well. And I think that, you know, when the opposition coalition, the main opposition grouping here, Civic Coalition, talked very much about these elections as a turning point.

I think women's rights were very much at the heart of that for many people when they were going to the ballot, not just women, but people who care about women's rights. I think they were thinking about such issues as abortion and more broadly the position of women in Polish society as they cast their ballots. And for some people, those who've supported the opposition, that was very critical. Yeah, and I recognise, you know, that that data isn't there,

but we do know the policies that have affected women's lives and abortion is chief amongst them because of how stringent and how strict the rules became. Yes, and, you know, you walk around Warsaw and there are windows where you see a kind of lightning flash symbol, a red lightning flash symbol, and that's the symbol for the women's protest here, which was massive when abortion was very, very heavily restricted. So essentially, in Poland today,

it's almost impossible to get a legal abortion. And many, many people, even from the more conservative voting governing party, many people object to that. But I'm sitting now or standing on a square in the centre of Warsaw and there is a giant crucifix in front of me, right in the middle of the square, a big concrete crucifix. This is a Catholic country. There are fewer people going to church than there used to be. But it is a generally, broadly, culturally conservative Catholic country. There are fewer people going to church than there used to be, but it is a generally, broadly, culturally conservative Catholic country. And many people don't believe that abortion should be allowed on demand. Many people don't believe IVF is a good thing. They don't believe in contraception being widely available. And so these issues that, you know, for cultural Catholics and practicing Catholics are important. And the government has been culturally, conservatively Catholic as well.

So that's the kind of context. But generally speaking, there is, of course, a huge number of women here who want the right to choose things like abortion, who want the rights to have access to IVF, state-funded IVF, and to free contraception, and those things are important to them. And yesterday, when I was at one polling station, actually just outside Warsaw, I was speaking to a woman, and she was saying, first of all, she was extremely excited to see the BBC in her small village, but she was sort of saying, you know, this is a pro-government

area, you know, most people here vote for the governing party, you know, she felt like she was very much in a minority, and she actually started crying when she was talking to me me because she said she has three daughters, teenage daughters, and she was extremely worried about the future for them and what their position would be in Polish society. And she came out to vote specifically for the opposition because she wanted change and to essentially protect them for the future. And she genuinely was in tears, this woman talking about her daughter's future in this country. And in terms of thinking about women's lives, then moving forward with the results as we expect it to be, how do you think women's lives may change? Well, the opposition parties, I mean, let's say, first of all, there's quite a long way to go. I mean, the exit polls show that the governing party, law and justice piece, looks like it will be unable to form a coalition, but there'll be an amount of kind of, I suppose, attempts to do that first and foremost. If that fails in weeks or months to come,

then presumably the opposition parties will get their chance and altogether they could form a coalition. And all the key opposition parties, centrist and more liberal, all of them have taken much more liberal positions on key things like abortion. So it would be expected that they would attempt to allow the right to abortion up to 12 weeks, for example, in Poland, which would be a very big deal. One of the key opposition parties talks about the need for more gynaecologists across the country. They talk about the need for free contraception, which is something which was removed, a right that was removed by the current government. They talk about the right for state

funded IVF as well. Again, that was something that doesn't exist at the moment. On abortion, one of the parties is not quite clear, you know, that there are splits within that coalition. But generally speaking, I think it would be expected that abortion would be back on the table, certainly for debate in Parliament. And many, many people in this country would hope that the rules would be, the restrictions would be lifted and that there would be the right for women to decide whether or not they can terminate a pregnancy, which is something which has been such a key issue. You know, the scale of the protests here when the right to abortion was restricted,

those were huge protests. And I think it was interesting that a lot of the people who were coming out were actually people who didn't support the opposition. So it is an issue that does go across the board. Yeah, I mean, those protests were huge. We covered them. And a lot of people who may not even know anything about poland may even recall those as well because of how major they were and fertility

rates apparently in poland fell to the lowest since world war ii this year which is is also something to reflect on perhaps yeah i mean the governing party would argue in order with it that it's been the most supportive for families. I'm so sorry. Sarah, I'm so sorry to talk across to you. Your line has just started to do the audio version of pixelate with images. So if we I think we'll be able to try. We can try that again. Sarah, do you want to start that answer again?

Yeah, I was just going to say that the governing party piece would say that it has been the most supportive of women's rights in the sense that it has been the party that spends very heavily on families. So it gives quite a substantial payment to children. So child benefit. It has increased that in recent years. And lots of people, actually lots of mothers, when you talk to people at the polling stations or generally in life here in in recent years and lots of people actually lots of mothers when you talk to to people at the polling stations or generally in life here in poland for a lot of people that's really important so they get so there we go that was sarah every child it was supposed to be too sorry you're back your line just completely cut out

sorry uh carry on they say they've been supportive yes i don't know if you heard what i was saying that about child benefit so the governing party uh has made a very key policy to to give 500 zloty 100 pounds or so to each uh child in each family so for each child and they're going to increase that or they were promising to increase that to 800 zloty and that has been uh something that many many women talk about um uh when you go and you and talk to them about who they support politically and at the polling stations here. So the government would say its policy is very much about supporting women and supporting family values and families as a whole. Sarah Rainsford, we'll leave it there now in Warsaw, putting us in the picture. Very grateful for that dispatch. The BBC's Eastern Europe correspondent talking about what looks like it will be the result,

but still a way to go in those polls in the election in Poland, because exit polls showing the governing right-wing Law and Justice Party has lost its majority in Parliament. We will see how that pans out. You've been using your voice to get in touch in response to my question at the start of the program about who you live with and why and how that works after we had a discussion last week about more unusual domestic setups and we're going to be hearing from one of you one of our listeners amy a bit later in the program

some brilliant stories here and different ways of doing things for good or for bad it seems my husband and i let me just read you a couple of these are approaching our golden wedding we have been separated since 2002 and yet we are on good terms i often stay in his house we share a bed but do not touch we both share in the lives of our four children he has had a good female friend whom he's known since birth and i have a good male friend i have a flat in l London, which is in our joint names. Another one here, dear Emma, my ideal would be to marry my lover, but not live together. I love him and my independence and I don't want to get into domesticity again. I haven't told him yet, or rather talk to him about it. I love your programme. I'm 64, says S. Thank you for that, S. Love having you on board. Another one here from Nicole, I have an unusual living arrangement.

I'm a woman living with an ex-female partner and her new male partner trying to make the best of a difficult situation. Thank you for that, Nicole. I can imagine that is difficult from what you've just said. The limited details can give you that picture. One here, no name on it. I live next door to my partner. We live on narrow boats, which are too small in our experience to live together on. It's been this What a mental image I have there of you listening to Radio 4 this morning. Good morning to whoever you are on your narrowboat, not living with your partner, but together with them. Keep those messages coming in, please. The number you need to get in touch, 84844, or get in touch via our social media channels or on the website. Now, the Queen of

Pop returned to London's O2 this weekend for her celebration tour, performing more than 40 songs from her four-decade career. And then some of her children went on to join her on stage. We can hear now from Sabrina Barra from Metro Online and Helen Brown, chief album critic for The Independent. Sabrina, you were there for this, for all of it. Tell us, how was it? spectacle just a preface that I never thought that I would have the chance to see Madonna live in my lifetime so it was extra special just to see such a legend on stage and I knew it would be a spectacle but it really did exceed my expectations. Is it hard to describe? It is but it was it was a very unique experience I mean first of all you've got her incredible catalogue which on its own would have been amazing but then on top of that you had a sort of storytelling narrative going back to the early years of her career in New York you had so many costume changes the dancers were brilliant Madonna's vocals were on point it was emotional of course just to see her back on stage after her health scare but also with her children

and also just rocking out at 65 you know she, she's still at the top of her game. Helen, did you feel the same? Yes, absolutely. I got that massive, massive empowering uplift that I was really hoping for. I think I'm a bit older than Sabrina. So I grew up with these songs. And Madonna said at that point, you know, we all met when I didn't know who I was,

when you guys didn't know who you were. And we grew up together. And dialing back into songs like Get Into The Groove you know to see her on stage with all the black rubber bangles and the lace in her hair and all of that kind of fun it took me right back and also what Sabrina was saying about this New York narrative you know we saw for Sabrina this is a woman who's always been an icon a legend and this was a reminder that she was once this girl struggling to get by in New York. There's a funny scene where we see her not being let into a nightclub. But then we see that transformation, what one woman's sheer determination, hard work and ambition can do. I was reminded of a really old anecdote of Madonna where she's working with a choreographer.

And the choreographer at one point said, oh, no no and then all the guys are going to lift you up and she's like I don't want to be lifted like a girl and he said oh they're going to lift you like a queen and she went boys lift me and I genuinely felt lifted did you I I think the reason I asked about it being hard to describe and you both started to do that, I mean, because, you know, people listening who might not even be a fan of hers, the show, it's the show that you can take something from. Because I was lucky enough to see her probably about 10 years ago. And it's still, hands down, bar Beyonce, the best performance I have ever seen on a stage.

And I wasn't necessarily, I've loved so much of her catalogue, her different areas. And Helen, just to come back to you, I wasn't expecting to feel like that necessarily, but it's such a performance, isn't it? It's so physical. Yes. I mean, she really brings you back into that youthful sense. You know, you've got that, we've all got, she sort of twangs that muscle memory in your tendons, you know, that takes you back to being, you know, dressing up like Madonna, singing into your hairbrush. You know, one of my favourite books about madonna is actually one called women's dreams of madonna

and it's it's how she snuck into so many different people's subconscious you know as this queen as a friend as a lover and one woman dreamed about her rescuing goats and there's a policeman but she's done something different to all of us and it was just ecstatic to see that there also I loved the um she performed erotica dressed up as a boxer with all these guys in a boxing ring and I think it reminded us you know because I was surrounded by gay men in their 50s and they were going absolutely well for it and it reminded us that the that battle for sexual freedom for women and for gay men was a real fight. And it was a fight that, you know, in that performance, she also reminded us that many of those men lost.

I think the most beautiful moment of the night for me was Live to Tell, which is always my favourite ballad. And she performed that surrounded by the sepia images of her many talented friends who were lost to AIDS. And I sobbed. You sobbed. I mean, there'll be a... Those beautiful boys, those beautiful, beautiful gifted boys.

And that's where there's a theatricality to it that you won't necessarily think if you haven't ever seen her perform and the stories that she's telling. Sabrina, was there a moment for you that stood out? Well, I have to say that I totally agree that tribute to the uh the victims of the AIDS crisis was so so moving I actually had tears in my eyes when she first came out on stage it was just it was I mean it was a culmination yes and the and the wind and the she had this big black gown billowing it was just I get emotional easily anyway but I think it was just seeing such a you

know there aren't many legends of her stature but seeing her on stage thinking wow she is merely meters away but also after everything she's been through just this year just the fact that she's come back and it for me it gave the you know the image of a phoenix rising and it was just this really beautiful moment and I tears in my eyes from the from the very start when she first came out and still super hot i mean she's definitely sex in sexagenarian i mean she's absolutely there with all of that isn't she and that she featured clips from her fantastic 2016 billboard speech where she said that you know we got to see all the controversy we got to see the nakedness. She spoke about trading sexual favours for showers in New York

when she was growing up. But basically, she said, the most controversial thing I ever did was to stick around. And for a woman in pop, I think, you know, the young stars of today, they don't realise that she has made a lifelong career on that stage possible. Yes, and on that, about her staying power, and I mentioned her age at 65, one reviewer

Sarah Vine in the Daily Mail has suggested Madonna should grow up and act the age of the majority of her audience. Helen I'll come to you for a response to that. I'm not saying you're 65 but I'm saying you've reflected how she has taken you back to where you were when she started and what you thought of her performance. What do you make of that response? What does Sarah Vine mean by acting your age? Madonna is a spectacular pop star. That's what she does. Why on earth should she stop doing it?

She's not here. I mean, to be fair. I have no clue what she means by, but there is enough men in the industry that have told madonna to sit down and shut up it's a shame that's a woman doing it well i have to say i've seen a lot of the male reviewers absolutely adoring this as well you know the male music critics um which i think is is also a sign of of just the the kind of you know it's just the pure

amazing spectacle that can be of that but i think that idea of her as a trailblazer to younger artists Sabrina is an important one to pick up especially as we've been reading about Taylor Swift's latest moves and what's going on with other people's kind of record-breaking releases and performances what do you make of that Sabrina when you look across the field now yeah well I definitely you know I totally agree she is such a legacy she is still the queen of pop for a reason she is still inspiring so many people, you know, like the likes of Taylor Swift, but also just people in general in life showing you follow your passions and keep at it. Why can't you keep doing it for decades and decades? And, and also, it was just so beautiful to see that, you know, the next generation on stage too. She was joined by her children on stage. Were they playing music? Were they performing? to see the next generation on stage too. She was joined by her children on stage in many moments. Were they playing music?

Were they performing? What were they doing? Yeah, so her eldest daughter, Lourdes, was on the stage with her. They were just having a fun moment during Vogue when the dancers were coming down the catwalk and they were holding up placards, like in ballroom, you know,

placards saying the number 10 or chop if they didn't like the outfit, which was a lot of fun. And then her 11-year-old daughter, Esther, just went and vogued down the runway like an absolute superstar that was one of my absolute highlights of the whole night but Mercy James playing the piano yeah Mercy on the piano David on the guitar and you had like you had that sense of you know Mercy James playing quite disciplined classical piano

while her mum's writhing around on top of the grand piano it was it was hilarious it really was wonderful. It was a bit of a kind of ab-fab, you know, Jennifer Saunders and Safi moment. Well, it sounds like you both feel a lot from it. And especially to you, Helen, I don't know, did you do something different the day after? Did you walk differently, walk a bit taller?

Did you dance a bit harder? What do you think the impact's been? Do you know, I had great conversations with everyone on the train home and i think that was it i think it's so there's there's a fantastic new biography of madonna coming out this week called uh by mary gabriel and whereas the old biographies told madonna's life i think what we're doing now the same as in history where we look at the regular people mary gabriel's biography looked at the impact that madonna had on all the people around. And that was almost in a weird way.

My train journey home was a continuation of the gig because I got all of these people's stories. And I was surrounded by gay men and they were, you know, they were talking about the AIDS crisis. They were talking about, you know, them playing Madonna songs before they went into the office to come out. Those stories were hugely moving. And Madonna is a ferocious, terrifying human being. I'm not sure I would be comfy sitting on the train on the way home with her. But all these normal people that she just lifted. And, you know, I still play, I don't know if we're allowed to say the B word on Woman's Hour,

but the bit, I'm Madonna. That's like when I'm trying to feel strong to write something, I'll stick that 2016 hit on and just get in the zone. Yeah. Well, I'm a big fan of listening to music that gets you in the zone and, you know, write all scripts to music. It's something amazing when somebody can do that to you, no matter where you are up to in your life.

Because I'm a self-doubting. I'm not a Madonna. She doesn't. I don't think she has very much self-doubt. I am wracked with self-doubt and self-criticism. But when I put that on and I channeled that on an apologetic attitude and I own my own opinions, you know, which I need to do as a journalist. It's just, she's there. Thanks, Madonna. Well, Helen, I feel you've let rip this morning and I've enjoyed it. Helen Brown,

chief album critic for The Independent. You've taken us there. So have you, Sabrina Barr. What were you about to say? Let me just give you the final word. No, I was just going to say that just another sign of her confidence was that on the opening night, there was a tech malfunction and she, you know, passed it off so smoothly. It was about, I don't know,

maybe 10, 15, 20 minutes. I'm not sure how long it was, but we were waiting for the sound to get back working and it basically became an evening with Madonna and she was just talking to the fans and you wouldn't think that she was in front of thousands of people at London. 20,000 people.

She made it look like we were around her dinner table. Yeah, or like in an intimate jazz bar or something. She was just chatting to the crowd. She brought out Bob the Drag Queen, who had introduced the whole performance and made appearances throughout. But he came out and they were having a nice chat. And it was just so lovely that she could interact with her fans and be her authentic self and have that bond with them, even in the midst of a bit of a malfunction. It was really, you know, it was a

good example for other artists if they ever go through the same sort of thing. Sabrina Barth, thank you so much. And Helen Brown, huge thanks to you. And giving an insight how music then intersects with your life and how things can maybe be different. If there's a song you always think of and use when you're having a difficult moment, tell us what it is. I'd love to hear. Get in touch with me this morning. You're already doing that as well with different living arrangements. Let me go back to a couple more if I can. Lacey Laurent, we're going to hear from Amy,

one of our listeners who got in touch about how she lives and who she lives with or rather who she doesn't. So good to hear of these different positive living arrangements. They are mainly positive. A few aren't, I should say. But I've stuck to a sad and lonely marriage,

wishing I'd had a bi-monthly, midweek, London bolt hole to give some joy and uplift. Fingers tightly crossed the universe will look down and make it possible. One day reads that message. No name on it. I hope so for you too. On the subject of where you live with your partner after 20 years together married we decided to live in separate

homes. I wanted to live in the country near my daughter. My husband wanted to stay in London near his daughter. We've done it for three years now with him visiting regularly and popping up to London occasionally. It works very well for us and it would be difficult to imagine

going back to the old routine. It's like a holiday when he comes. And one more here. Me and my ex-wife live in two flats in the same cul-de-sac. We separated when our son was two and decided to have another baby a year or so later and the children are now six and nearly two. They mostly stay at mine but stay at his one or two nights a week

and we both look after them in each other's flats we spend time together at the weekends and do holidays together it took us a while to get to this point but it's been great to be able to co-parent so closely however my ex recently met someone else which i am finding really really hard so now thinking maybe it isn't so great to have our lives so entwined. We'll see. There you go. The reality of that. Keep your messages coming in. Now, my next guest is someone I have spoken to several times over the years. In fact, the last time was in the company of the now Queen, then Duchess of Cornwall, Camilla at Clarence House in a special edition of Woman's Hour. I'm talking about Diana Parks, a tireless campaigner for women's rights and safety,

a position she was thrown into when her daughter, Joanna Simpson, was killed by her estranged husband in 2010 with their two children in earshot. That man, who was convicted of manslaughter and has been serving a prison sentence ever since, was due for automatic release on licence early next month after serving 13 years of a 26-year sentence. For months, Diana

Parks has repeatedly said she is concerned about the risks posed by her daughter's killer if he is set free, primarily to her grandchildren, whom she's raised ever since they lost their mother and they do not want any contact with their father. At the end of last week, the government blocked his automatic release and referred it to the parole board. Diana Parks joins me now. Diana, welcome back to the programme. It's good to have you on. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you so much for inviting me. It was a big moment last week, I imagine, for you and for your family. What was it like to receive that news that the Justice

Secretary, Alex Chalk, had taken that step? Well, I was with my grandson here at home, and my granddaughter, she listened in virtually from where she's living in London. And my son happened to be in Spain, so we all tuned in virtually. Hetty Barker's lantern was actually at the Ministry of Justice. And Alex Chalk immediately said, well, I'm not going to beat about the bush. I've stopped his automatic release. And I can honestly say I was stunned. I think you've been, you know, we've been planning for this, working for this end. And to hear those words was, well, I just felt stunned. Delighted, absolutely delighted,

of course. And, you know, a big part of this, and as I mentioned, we've spoken several times now, is about your safety and about your children's safety, your feeling of being safe. This was always on the horizon when we were talking. It was indeed. We don't just worry for our family's safety. We worry for any woman that Brown may have set up a relationship with because we are, in actual fact fact making a documentary at the moment about joe as a person a lovely lovely person not just a body in a box as she was portrayed at the trial and

so many people who um knew brown did not want to go on the documentary because they themselves feared for their lives the revenge that he may wreak on anybody who he blames for putting him in this position and um I just said to them please don't worry just write to the MOJ it will be treated completely confidentially and that's fact, what people did. Yes. I mean, you talk about the Ministry of Justice there, and we'll get to what will happen next. And you mentioned your friend Hetty, who stood by your side. I should also say she's the chair of the charity of the organisation Refuge, in case people aren't sure who she is and how this has all worked together.

How have your grandchildren responded? Well, I mean, obviously we're all relieved. We can't be totally complacent because of course it's still got to go to the parole board. And I mean, they may say he's safe to be released. Well, if they do, we'll certainly contest it, you know. And when are you expecting that? Do you know the timeframe? Well, we understand that it has to go to a member case assessment when it's reviewed by one person and then it goes to the parole board themselves. And we have asked if we can attend and we are going to read out our victim statements and we certainly will make a strong point that he should not be released.

And on that, I mean, I was just looking at what the Justice Secretary had said. He said anyone who had heard that your daughter's case couldn't fail to be affected by the appalling nature of it and how harrowing it is. And he paid tribute to you and to your daughter's friends for the campaign. And he talks about making an undertaking, this is Alex Trott, the Justice Secretary, to do everything he lawfully could to make sure justice was done. I mean, does that take away any, does that help alleviate some of the fear you had? Because I haven't gone into today but we have talked at length before about what happened to joe and it was incredibly violent

and your children were within earshot and that fear is real not just i know you talk about other people but i wonder if that has been diminished in any way if you if you can feel safer because of his intervention well we can feel safe that he's not going to be released at the moment, but we still have to wait for the parole board. I have to say that, you know, really forcefully. We cannot relax until we know that he is going to be kept in prison by the parole board, that they understand how dangerous this man is. Because you still feel that he is a danger to society?

Oh, he absolutely is. And can you imagine him sitting in jail for the past 13 years, building up the revenge that he'll certainly be building up? I mean, he probably tried to seek a judicial review on what Alex Chalk has succeeded in doing. I mean, we have to thank actually three justice secretaries. We have to thank Sir Robert Buckland, who brought the law into place, the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022. And he's been an enormous support to us through our campaign. We have to thank Dominic Raab for not allowing him to go to Scotland when he put in a request to go to Scotland,

because had he gone to Scotland, he would now be coming out of jail the week beginning November the 6th, because he's out of the English jurisdiction. And of course, Alex Chalk for making the final decision. How are you doing? I remember our listeners getting in touch to pay tribute very much to you and your work, but also the fact that you have been raising

and continue, I know, to look after your grandchildren, now adults. Yes, they are. They're both working. And yes, they continue to be a total joy to me. Yes, at the moment, I feel emotionally exhausted with all this. You know, I'm 84 now and had one or two health things, but I'm keeping on fighting.

And that mission to present Jo to the world as you knew her and brought her up as your girl, as your daughter. I mean, just again, for those who are perhaps joining your story anew this morning and they don't know the details, how should we think of Jo when we see these headlines? We think of Jo as a wonderful mother, a wonderful daughter. She was funny. She was witty. She was clever. She loved gardening. She loved cooking. She was always there for advice. She was the most sensible person in the world. Clever girl. And I miss her every day. Of course you do, Diana. Thank you for painting a picture of her, though, because I think that's really important.

And I know that you want to do that. Thank you for painting a picture of her, though, because I think that's really important. And I know that you want to do that. Thank you very much. It's good to talk to you this morning. I'll let you be. Diana Parks there. We will, of course, stay with that story and what will happen next, potentially with it. It still has to go to the parole board, as Diana Parks mentioned, and the justice secretary having taken that decision at the end of last week. We wanted to bring that to your attention. Now, as climate ministers meet in Luxembourg today, ahead of the COP28 summit next month in the United Arab Emirates,

an exhibition looking at the relationship between women and the environment is running at the Barbican in London. Resisters, a lens on gender and ecology, brings together film, photography and installations from around 50 international women artists and says it wants to identify the systemic links between the oppression of women and the degradation of the planet. Let's talk to the lead curator, Alana Pardo. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for inviting me. Thanks for being here because I

haven't done a good enough job and I do try in this line of work I'm in to say the title as well as I could have done because I said Resisters but there is a pun, there's a play on words which is much easier in the poster. I'm going to let you explain. Yeah so Resisters is really playing on this idea of women being kind of you know actors within the comrades within the kind of resistance protagonists of the resistance. But also it was a well used word in the 80s. Particularly, there was a zine, for instance, published in 1981, called Nuclear Resisters by a feminist publishing company. So it was it's a term that's been kind of weapon used and instrumentalized by the eco-feminists since the 1970s. Yes. And when you read it, it looks like as well, Ari, Rhi, sisters. And that idea of sisterhood. It's about sisterhood. It's about bringing women together to kind of, you know, behind it, to be, you know, to, yeah, bringing women together to kind of look at the systemic links,

as you said, between the oppression of women and the degradation of the planet. And let's talk about that relationship. What made you want to curate this exhibition and what are you trying to show? Well, what made me want to curate it was that there seemed to me that there are these two intertwined struggles that are often the oppression of women and

equally the oppression of the planet. And for a lot, for over the last six decades, a lot of women artists and gender non-conforming artists from the 60s have really been bringing these two intertwined struggles together to really kind of join the dots between the oppressions of sexism, racism, colonial capitalism, and equally a relationship with nature, kind of shaped by a kind of Western idea of science. And so many artists in the show, and you know, the show really unites, you know, artists working in lens-based media and film and photography, have brought these two struggles together. And these are two struggles that are just much stronger when they are seen on the same platform. Gender justice, and a lot of feminists today,

particularly in the kind of 2020s and the fourth wave feminism, have recognised that you cannot have gender justice without environmental justice. They go hand in hand because women often feel the kind of most negative impacts of kind of the violent politics of extraction. They are often leading the way in terms of creative acts of civil disobedience in terms of nature. So if we think back to the 1980s and the anti-nuclear peace movements often led by women, so Green and Common here in the UK or Seneca in the United States, or indeed the Chipko movement in India that really began in the 1970s. Women have really been platforming and putting their bodies and having their voices heard and trying to bring

these struggles together to resist and to fight kind of a patriarchal kind of mechanistic world that's organized around the exploitation of natural resources. Do you think people know about that link, you know, outside of those working in that world? Because it's one that's definitely struck me since starting at Women's Hour a few years ago. And certainly when we talk about politics, which is of great importance to our listeners, but also I was just very struck about when you ask,

as we have done for the last couple of weeks, what you want from your political leaders as the political conferences have gone on. I have been very struck by how important the environment is to a lot of our listeners, you know, not to all and not all in the same way. But I wasn't actually that as aware as I am now of how important that link is for some? I mean, it's incredibly important. And there are, you know, a number of prominent women eco-activists such as Gail Bradbrook or Greta Thunberg or even Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez in the US, who are all building on the kind of legacy of their foremothers or earlier eco-feminists who recognised these intertwined struggles of gender and ecological justice with questions of kind of wider questions of kind of social justice and so they were really tapping into the kind of civil disobedience tactics of the 1960s and earlier women's suffrage movements so it's absolutely critical and has been at the forefront

because precisely you know for instance in the exhibition we've got the Indian artist Pamela Singh photo imaging these very kind of poetic, powerful black and white photographs. The Chipko movement, the Chipko movement was a movement that was women-led, really grassroots activists, started in the 70s in the foothills of the Himalayas, and it involved women kind of tree-hugging, which was actually seen as a really positive thing, and we see them hugging the trees in order to protect them from being felled by state and industry sanctioned loggers but what we're looking at here are these women who are absolutely reliant on the trees for their material existence so we have on the one hand this kind of beautiful romantic redemptive kind of relationship to nature but

the fact is that in order to to for their own survival they needed the trees for their material survival they needed to collect you know wood to kind of you know um keep their houses warm to to make food etc so so this relationship is is is symbiotic and not only on a justice level but it is absolutely kind kind of critical to the survival of many women around the world. And the tree-hugging element, as you say, very beautiful reference, but for some will think of other things. You know, it depends on your context as to what you associate that with as protest as well. Yeah, but tree-huggers is actually a term I believe started in the 1760s in India. And it's really around how this idea of

the tree hugger has been mediated. So tree huggers is actually something incredibly powerful, incredibly positive but particularly in the West over the last 20 or so years has been really demonized and the show these tree huggers, web weavers, water defenders are seen as being absolutely kind of positive kind of protagonists of the resistance. These are women who come together collectively. And it's really important to say that's often a community of women coming together to think through. They are not acting alone. They're really acting together to kind of recognize their planetary interconnectedness. They recognise that in order to leave, you know, for the continuation of life on Earth, we need to resist these kind of violent politics of extraction, you know,

this kind of industrial scale mining that's taking place. We need the labour of ecological care or what we're calling the politics of Earth maintenance. This idea that we need to look after the earth is actually critical and comes out in the work, for instance, by the American feminist artist Mila Lederman-Ukeles, who in 1979 became the first and only ever official artist in residence at the New York Department of Sanitation. And she spends a year with the refuse collectors, the rubbish collectors going on their sweeps. 1979, of course, in New York, it's, you know, the edge of bank on the

moment of bankruptcy. And Mila Leidman-Ukeles is absolutely insistent on trying to, she's trying to link her kind of gendered struggle with the struggles of kind of the working men and thinking through ideas of ecological justice so here she's making the link really between maintenance work in the domestic sphere which is really traditionally defined as women's work and then the undervalued labor required to care for our planet and so she goes with all of these refuse collectors very early in the morning when they're collecting the rubbish and shakes their hand in the performance called the touch sanitation performance and thanks them for keeping New York alive it's about valuing

this work whether it's in the urban scape whether it's in the rural space we need to we need to consistently remember that we must maintain our earth and leave it in a better place and it's not something that we're doing and women have women have a very long history of protesting ecological destruction. And so that's what the show is really platforming. It sounds like something you signed up to, perhaps, maybe through the stories. Oh, I'm a total convert. Absolutely. And there's incredible work being made. There will be feminists, obviously, who don't link their work to the ecological side of things. You know, there will be those who see themselves as women's rights activists who don't find themselves aligned with what you're describing. Yes, but ultimately, as I said,

it's, there are people, well, I'm not actually sure I think feminists recognise the power of, or the radical political potential of the the ecological of ecological justice and and so there was a kind of flight you know in in ecofeminism evolved as kind of theory in the 70s um at the time obviously at the women's lip the kind of the rise of the women's lip movement and a lot of women did reject this these ideas these theories of ecofeminism because they were worried that it would you know kind of regress the women's lib movement. Well, yeah, I mean, women have got quite a lot to fight for, I imagine they were thinking at that time.

Why do we necessarily have to take the entire world on with us? Well, it was more that they didn't want to be equated with nature because nature is something that's always been dominated by the patriarchy. And women were traditionally seen as being synonymous with nature. Men were seen as being producers of culture and women were seen as being synonymous with nature. And so a lot of feminists of the second wave movement really tried to reject that and have this kind of flight from nature. Which is interesting. I think it's an interesting point to reflect. It's totally fascinating. And for many reasons, it's partly because there was this idea of, you know, we had this idea of

mother earth and it was dire and seen as quite hippie um and it wasn't politicized and i think what the artists in this show are really doing are really trying to kind of politicize the movement and politicize nature and it kind of advocate for interspecies politics it's advocating for our planetary interconnectedness and really kind of recognizing that without a healthy planet we cannot have cannot have healthy lives well it sounds like something if you know nothing about i mean i am also aware i like to reflect the breadth of our listeners some people will never have heard of ecofeminism so they will learn a lot from your discussion and what you've learned today and shared with us this morning and

if they get to go to london if they are this morning. And if they get to go to London, if they are in London and they get to go to the exhibition, they can see it and they can see some of what you're talking about and read all about it. Alana Pardew, thank you very much

for bringing us the benefit of your research there. Lead curator of Resisters, a lens on gender and ecology that's on at the Barbican in London. You've been getting in touch throughout the whole programme around living separately or living differently or living in a way that perhaps you hadn't expected to with those in your life, with your partner primarily. Would you live

separately from your partner given the chance? Exploring the idea of alternative living was what we started last week and we had this conversation, we had the conversation, excuse me, with Caroline and Neil. And we're following on from it today. But Caroline and Neil, let me remind you, a couple who split up but remained in the same home, which is not that strange, but then it got a bit more complicated. Have a listen to a bit of their story

and do try to keep up. Caroline, you met someone, Ian. I did. And you drove Neil to a pub to meet him. Is that right? Was that a fun night? It started off awkward. Yeah. and then we ended up just laughing. Well, I remember when I first told Neil about this

and I sort of sat him down and said, look, I think I've met someone that might be special. I think this one might stick. I've explained our situation. And when I met him and I thought, OK, he's different. I don't get half of what he's talking about. He seems unusual. But I got a vibe straight thought, OK, he's different. I don't get half of what he's talking about. You know, he seems unusual. But I got a vibe straight away that he was a decent guy.

If I can fast forward to where we seem to have got to now, whereas who's living where? I've got a bit confused. So Caroline still lives in Cheltenham with our children. I relocated up to Scotland to train as a teacher and I'm renting a room in Ian's brother's house and Ian lives there with his youngest son. So that sounds a lot weirder than it is.

Yeah. So a lot of you got in touch and you've continued to. And one of the people who got in touch, one of the women, Amy. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. You've got a secret to a long and happy relationship, I believe. Living apart. Separate houses, Emma, separate houses.

Tell us more. How did this start? And or rather, why has it not changed? So really the circumstances were that I was single, I was pregnant, I was a nanny, and I met my lovely husband through his daughter, really, who I was looking after at the time. And he asked me out and he is a lighting designer.

So he's away abroad lots of the week. And I didn't want to do his laundry when he came back. He didn't want me to do his laundry when he came back. And so we just carried on living separately. OK, so you met each other with responsibilities in your lives. Yeah. With children and other things. Exactly.

So he'd just had a divorce, actually, and he had a daughter who lived with her mum. And she would come back for extended periods. And I just had my beautiful boy. And so I already had my own set up he had his own setup in Suffolk and then and then when you did get together and being together for a while did it come up that you might live together at some point we tried it for actually for a week um and he came back from Russia seven whole days yeah he moved from Ch of drawers in. He came back from Russia and I was ill on the sofa. I had a cold and we were just like, no, I want to be on my own.

And he was exhausted. And that was it. He took chest of drawers back and that was that. And that was it. That was literally the only time we tried it. Either of you ever floated the idea since? No, we both absolutely love the living apart do you i mean do you ever get lonely at night or it's completely

the opposite actually because because you both have because we're both independent you don't get that loneliness that you sometimes get in a relationship where the other persons you know you've had an argument or something that's like one of the big advantages um and we both kept our own friendship groups and we come when we come together it's lovely it's like date night yeah every time it's brilliant but do you sleep over at each other's places yes there's no line drawn that you always have to go home no i to be fair i mean he used to come to mine when my son was young my son is now 19 and um I go to his and uh he's very tidy so his house is like a hotel so it's lovely for me I get to stay in a really lovely house um and it's great yeah and and how many nights a week would you say

you stay together so he's away a lot um So on the nights he's not, I would say if I don't need to be up in the morning, he doesn't need to be up in the morning. So last week, Thursday, Friday. Okay. So it varies. People like to see how people are doing it and see how it's working and get ideas. So last night I went round to watch the rugby but

both of us had to be up early. He's working today so. And you had to be here to talk about the fact that you don't want to ever live with him. Exactly that. There'll be some people, though, as well, who will be listening to this. And I was aware of just one of the messages that came in where people are living together or even apart, but they don't want to be. But because they financially can't manage it, you know, there's difficulty there. So, you know, they can't afford to leave where they are with perhaps their ex.

Yeah. So we never had that. So we were separate from the beginning. So actually, the finances work really well with completely separate. He does his own house. I do my own house. And so there's no difference. Do you worry? I mean, I think this is also interesting from some of the messages. Did you worry about losing control of your own home? You know, sort of enmeshing your lives together. Was that a concern and losing your independence in that way? Yeah, absolutely. You know, both of us, I think, had that.

Like I said, he's been divorced. He's been divorced, yes. So neither of us particularly wanted that. And there isn't any good reason to do that because it works really well without intermeshing. I mean, I've lived with people before. And this works so much better for me. What do friends and family think?

So both our parents have been married forever. So my parents' anniversary was just last week and they've been married 57 years. And they love Richie. He's great. And they're quite happy for me to do my thing. But do they find it unusual that you don't live together? Well, to be fair, I think they know what I'm like. I'm trying to find out what you're like, Amy, in this short exchange. OK, so they don't find it. I can imagine sometimes people may have family and friends who make comments. I think when we got married, I think quite a few people went, oh, good, now you can live together.

But actually, the marriage was important because it kind of before felt like one foot in, one foot out. And the marriage just solidified the relationship. But yes, there's no point in changing the living arrangements and what about i did mention maybe in the future retirement uh coming together is that is that something that's live in discussion we had a five-year plan and we wanted to move to france when richie retired and that was about 10 years ago. So he's still not retiring. And in France, will you have separate addresses? Right, so the idea was we would get somewhere...

I feel like I'm doing him a service here, trying to get answers. Go on, Amy. An East Wing and a West Wing, maybe. Or at least a bigger-nosed place. Oh, I don't know. I think perhaps when we stop working, maybe it'll be fine. No, I think there's some people listening to this who think when we stop working maybe it'll be fine no I think

there's some people listening to this who think when you stop working that's the exact time you need to keep your independence because you're going to be around each other even more let me read a couple of messages Amy while you're with me um I've been part-time with my partner for 26 years and we are both very happy with this arrangement we both have our own homes but see each other most days we often holiday together but we're both in our 80s now, but live active lives. In fact, Ray is coming on his bike this morning and we will be working in my garden.

So there you go. Maybe that's a view to the future from Jackie. Yeah, well, five-year plan's gone then. Yeah, that's fine. I like the five-year plan. You sound like you're in office. There's another one. 34 years married.

My husband and I live between Egypt and the UK. We're both artists. We need our space and very often we have long periods of separation which people find very odd it works for us our love is intact and most of all we still laugh together a lot keeping in touch and marking these little moments like birthdays and anniversaries is very important we never fail to do this my heart still misses a beat before we meet or talk. He is my rock as I am his. And there's a nice heart emoji on the end of that message. So there you go. No name on it, but very sweet message and emotion underpinning that.

Do you think it does keep it fresher between you and your partner? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, he's lovely. And, you know, it's great. So if you need more, you can take more. If you want some time apart, you've got that. You know, you can make it whatever you want over the years. It doesn't become stale. Yes. And I think, you know, it's interesting to read that there are lots of people doing this. Do you have other friends who live perhaps not in the traditional setups that we used to?

But I do know a lot of people that say they'll never live with a man again. And one of the reasons I phoned up really was to say, don't give up on love and relationships. Just don't do the boring bits. Don't, as one person put it, the domesticity side of it. Yeah, that's right. Well, another one here. I live opposite my ex-husband in the house I bought with him

during lockdown. I fell in love with the man who lived opposite, left my husband, but he didn't want to sell the house. He's now with a partner of three years and is having a baby. And we live separate lives across the road from each other. All very EastEnders. Quite complicated. No name on this. I am struggling to keep up or trying to keep up. Well, Amy, thank you so much for getting in touch. And I think that's a really interesting message, you know, on women's out to a lot of women that, you know, don't lose faith in the love side of things. Yeah, exactly that.

Yeah. Even if you don't want to do it in quite the way we've been taught. Thank you for that. I have to say some brilliant messages as well about Madonna. Jane in Cumbria wanted to make sure

I'd said this one. I'm not even a Madonna fan particularly, but why on earth would us fellow 60-somethings want another trailblazing woman to diminish herself like many of us have? She is acting her age. The idea that she should act her age at the age of 65, that's what one of the critics

said, apparently loving it. Crack on Madonna. I'm a chunky 60-year-old and working at my kitchen table, but incorporating some dance moves. I'd rather be more Madonna. Jane, I am now imagining that. Thank you for painting such a vivid picture. And thank you for all of your messages, especially one here which says,

now Madonna is the link between me and my eldest granddaughter, Alana. We both enjoy hearing her and revisiting many happy moments. And also just to say, coming up on the programme tomorrow, we're going to have analysis of the long-awaited online safety bill

with two people very much in the know. So join me for that and I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Melvin Bragg and I'm back with a new series of BBC Radio 4's In Our Time. We're celebrating our 1000th episode, so there's an extraordinary range of topics for you to get stuck into, from history, science and philosophy to religion and the arts. This series we're discussing Albert Einstein, E. Mark Bergman, Plankton, the Versailles Treaty and much more. In Our Time is like an audio encyclopedia, we're told, and you can hear it all on BBC Sounds. I hope you enjoy it. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I hope you enjoy it. the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.