Woman's Hour - 'Maid' - new word-of mouth hit series; Toni Tone; Access to coils; Women in the UK military;

Episode Date: October 28, 2021

Women in the military are suffering serious long term physical and mental health problems because of widespread bullying and sexual harassment. Research by the University of Oxford, King’s College London and the charity Combat Stress found over 20% were sexually harassed, over 5% were sexually assaulted and over 20% were emotionally bullied. Laura Hendrikx, is the author of the study which was published in the BMJ Military Health Journal. She and Chloe Tilley are joined by veteran Colonel Ali Brown.Have you been watching Maid on Netflix? The 10-part series is a word-of-mouth hit, about a single mother in the US who flees her abusive partner and takes up cleaning for wealthy clients to support her and her daughter. Inspired by the 2019 memoir 'Maid: Hard Work, Low Pay, and a Mother’s Will to Survive', it tackles poverty, domestic abuse, motherhood and homelessness. Rachael Sigee, a freelance journalist and TV critic and Caron Kipping, a divorce and separation coach and Independent Domestic Violence Advocate, herself a survivor of domestic abuse, discuss why it's so popular.The Lowdown, the world's first review platform for contraception, has found that women prefer the coil to any other contraceptive method. Long-acting reversible contraceptives (LARCS), such as the implant, injection, the hormonal and copper coil tend to be those chosen most frequently. However, during the pandemic, the Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare (FSRH) has found a steep fall in access to these LARCS. Alice Pelton Founder of the Lowdown and Dr Asha Kasliwal, President of the Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Health Care, discuss.Blogger Toni Tone has thousands of followers across social media - many of whom call her “the big sister I never had”. Her work on relationships and female empowerment have been shared by the likes of Demi Lovato, Khloe Kardashian and Oprah Magazine. Toni’s new book of ‘I Wish I Knew This Earlier’ is a Sunday Times bestseller, and details her advice on the complicated, and sometimes painful, world of dating. Toni joins Chloe to discuss.Presenter: Chloe Tilley Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Laura Hendrikx Interviewed Guest: Colonel Ali Brown Interviewed Guest: Rachael Sigee Interviewed Guest: Caron Kipping Photographer: Ricardo Hubbs Interviewed Guest: Alice Pelton Interviewed Guest: Dr Asha Kasliwal Interviewed Guest: Toni Tone

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Chloe Tilley. Welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello, good morning, welcome to the programme. Now, the Duchess of Cornwall has condemned how, in her view, society has come to believe that violence against women is normal in what's being billed as the most powerful speech made by the future queen. She asked how many more women must be harassed, raped or murdered is normal in what's being billed as the most powerful speech made by the future queen. She asked how many more women must be harassed, raped or murdered before we truly unite to forge a violence-free world. Well, speaking at the Women of the World event in London, she urged men to get

on board to tackle sexual violence against women. Well, her speech comes as research from the University of Oxford says women serving in the British military are suffering serious long term physical and mental health problems because of experiences of bullying and sexual harassment. We're going to hear from a military veteran about her experiences. We're also this morning going to be talking about contraception, particularly long lasting contraception like the coil or the implant. This morning, I want to hear how easy it is for you to get hold of this type of contraception like the coil or the implant. This morning I want to hear how easy is for you to get hold of this type of contraception. Latest figures show that during the pandemic there has been a sharp fall in the number of women being able to access them. So have you been able to get the right one to suit you and if you want to switch or you want to

change or you want to stop your contraception have you been able to do so? You can text us now on Woman's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Alternatively, you can get in touch via social media at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website. Now, a word of mouth hit on Netflix looks set to become the most popular miniseries on the platform. It's called Made. It's the story of a young mother trying to

escape her abusive partner. It looks at poverty, homelessness and coercive control. And we're going to look at whether this is a realistic portrayal. And it's an issue which has been raised many times, the challenges of parenting teenagers. Well, that challenge seems to have been compounded by the pandemic, with teenagers' mental health coming under severe pressure. One suggestion being put forward is the idea of being given time off work if needed to support your troubled teen, like say maternity or paternity leave. Now currently parents do have the right to take leave, but it's only for a couple of weeks at a time rather than months at a time. And if you are a parent of a teenager or have parented teens, would that make a difference? Should employers be more understanding about the pressures of juggling work and parenting teenagers?

Or is this simply not a choice for you financially to take a few weeks or a few months off work unpaid to support your teenager? So is the answer to this paid leave? Should that be an option? Text me now 84844 or we're at BBC Women's Hour on social media. And also we're going to be speaking to the blogger Toni Tone, known by many of her fans as the big sister I never had. She'll be talking to us about her latest bestseller, all about the complicated world of dating. Now, women in the military are suffering serious long-term physical and mental health problems because of experiences of bullying and sexual harassment. Research published this week by the University of Oxford, King's College London and the charity Combat Stress found over 20% were sexually harassed, over 5% were sexually assaulted and over 20% were emotionally bullied. Well, we can speak to Laura Hendricks, who is the

author of the study, which was published in the BMJ Military Health Journal. And also with us is Colonel Ali Brown, who is an army veteran, but today she's representing the Women's Royal Army Corps Association, which took part in the research. Good morning to both of you. Morning, Chloe. Thanks for having us. Absolute pleasure. Hi there. Now, Ali, maybe I can start with you because as someone who's worked in the army or did work in the army for many, many years, are you surprised by what's been found? No, Chloe, I'm not surprised by the latest research. What I would say is, of course, that this research doesn't stand alone. Only in the last 12 months, two key reports have been published. We also served in protecting those who protect us.

And the latter was led by Sarah Atherton MP, which contained over four and a half thousand pieces of evidence, some of it from serving women. And prior to that, there have been reports dating back to 2009, the Watts Andrew and the Wigston report in 2019. So all of this research, including the latest research, has established that these inappropriate and actually sometimes criminal behaviours are still happening, and that support and indeed recourse to the authorities is extremely difficult. So no, I'm not surprised. Tell me about your experience in the army. The army I joined, I joined in 1984 and I served until 2010. And that was a time of great change for women in the army. But the army culture I joined was really hard to navigate, I think,

for women. You want to progress, you want to succeed and not be different. Looking back, you do put up with behaviour that perhaps you wouldn't or shouldn't. For example, language, sexist comments, jokes and a level of touching. And I have to say that that culture was normalised. The role of strong leadership is so important as without condemnation from the top and more actions to eradicate these behaviours, they will persist. And I feel that that normalisation

has been the real barrier to the culture fully changing. When you say a level of touching, what are we talking about? A level of touching which, looking back, I probably should have called out. What I would say is that I feel my rank protected me. I think when you are an officer and you get to a certain rank, then that rank does act as a bit of a shield and protects you. So my experiences will be very different from a soldier's experience, a private or a lance corporal who hasn't got that rank to protect her.

Laura, let me bring you in. You're the author of this study. Did you speak to a range of people across the military? Ali saying that she felt she, to some extent, was protected by her rank. Did you speak to less senior women? So, yeah, I think this study, first of all, wasn't an interview study. So it was actually a survey that we delivered online and people kind of took part in it and reported some of their experiences there without going into the details of the bullying or harassment or assault that they faced. What we did find in the study was that actually there was some indication that women who held rank as officer were also more likely to experience certain types of adversity.

But I'm guessing that's kind of in contrast to what Ali has been saying. So it sounds like it's quite widespread, maybe across different levels within the military. And I think kind of looking at why that might be the case, why this, for example, the study showed that a greater risk among those who held rank as officer is still rather unclear at the moment. And I think that really highlights the fact that we just need to know more about what's going on inside the military at all levels to make sure that women across different ranks are being protected.

So in a way, this was almost self-selective, wasn't it? In the fact that people were coming forward and willing. So it's very difficult, isn't it, to extrapolate from that the extent of what is going on. But it certainly gives us an insight, doesn't it? And a starting point. What were the women who did get in touch with you saying to you about the impact of the trauma of what they'd experienced? What effect was it having on their lives? So we can see from the study that there's this lasting impact on their mental well-being, but also physical symptoms and general kind of integration, post or adaptation, adjustment into civilian life. We found that with all instances of the adversity, whether that was emotional bullying, sexual trauma in the form of harassment or assault or physical assault,

they all resulted in a higher likelihood of current PTSD symptoms, post-traumatic stress disorder. And this is kind of considering that these are women who have served probably a bit earlier because the average age of the sample was 50 and above. So really kind of speaking to that lasting impact on their well-being. But we also found symptoms of anxiety, depression, alcohol use difficulties, loneliness, social isolation. So really kind of that lasting impact as well on general well-being and adjustments into daily life. And Ali, you talked about, in hindsight, you look back on what you witnessed and think you should have called it out, but it was just what happened in the army back then.

Were there systems in place enabling you to report this? And if you would have done, do you think you would have been supported? I think as time went on, those systems were definitely put in place. And throughout the 90s and 2000s, the systems were put in place. I think reporting such offences is always going to be difficult, because the chain of command is there, it's very strong. And it's very hard to actually pursue a complaint through that chain of command. I do hear a lot at the moment, you know, things are better now. And they are, but not enough, as the behaviour is still taking place as evidenced by this body of research. I do believe there are tens and tens

of thousands of women who served when the culture was toxic. And some of these women still carry the physical and mental health scars of not being taken seriously, and not receiving the support that they desperately needed. It would be remiss of me not to say that work is being done by NHS England to improve access to specialist services and by the MOD to improve further the policies and procedures and also in the charity sector such as the Women's Royal Army Corps Association to provide safe spaces and support. But we do need better awareness and access to these specialist services and for women not to be afraid to report these offences and access the support. And looking back in the probably in the 80s and 90s, I would have been definitely

afraid to report such an incident. Because of what? Because of the effect on my career. I think anyone who joins the army wants a career. It's not an organisation you join, you know, just for a look-see. Most people who join the army are committed to have a career. And career is about progression in the army. It's by definition a hierarchical organisation, which is one of its strengths. I'm very proud to say that I served in the army, it's by definition a hierarchical organisation, which is one of its strengths. I'm very proud to say that I served in the British army, but I think that the toxic culture that existed certainly in the 80s and 90s, and to a level still exists now, is something we have to continue to call out. And this body of research that's growing shows that that is the inappropriate and criminal

behaviours are still happening now. And that's the challenge, isn't it, changing that culture. And we know from many different organisations, it can take some time to change that culture. But you do think it's possible within the Army Alley? I think anything is possible. I think with commitment, strong leadership, and also a further look at how women can access help and support and not be afraid to report these offences. I think the culture can be supportive to these women and not act as a barrier for them when these things do happen to them. Change has happened, but much more change is needed. Laura, tell us what structures are in place now to stop harassment and bullying within the military? Because, of course, we're not just talking about the army.

Yeah, there's been releases of a zero tolerance policy around harassment, bullying, all kinds of kind of discrimination against women within the military. And they've also recently set up a 24 hour hotline to call in to report these these instances in a very confidential manner. still kind of in line with what Ali is saying is that many women don't feel comfortable in doing so because either there might be a lack of confidence in the confidentiality process of the reporting, but also that if peers do find out, they could face further bullying, further kind of social exclusion from their cohorts there by reporting it. So as Ali was saying, even though there are the steps in place, making it safer for women to report, there needs to be something that's done to kind of get that message across and really show to women that it is a confidential service. They can feel comfortable to come forward and report these instances, but really kind of focusing on the mental health support that would then come afterwards, because it's not just a matter of coming forward and reporting it. It's about

making sure that there is the appropriate support, both while women are serving and after they've left as well, that they can really kind of process these experiences that they've been subjected to. Thank you both so much for joining us this morning. That was Laura Hendricks, author of that study, which was published in the BMJ Military Health Journal. We also heard from Colonel Ali Brown, who's an army veteran, speaking to us, representing the Women's Royal Army Corps Association, which took part in that research. We've got this statement from the Ministry of Defence. We are committed to improving the experience for women in the armed forces in every area of their lives and do not tolerate abuse, bullying, harassment or discrimination. We've taken a range of steps to improve the experiences of women in our armed forces as we continue to do so for all serving personnel. This includes launching a 24-7

confidential and independent whole force bullying, harassment and discrimination helpline with trained advisors to support personnel. All allegations are taken very seriously with unlawful behaviour investigated by the relevant police service as necessary. Now I was asking you earlier on to give us your experiences of accessing longer term contraception particularly during the pandemic there has been some problems with women accessing those services we're talking sort of the coil implant things like that we've had this message come in on 84844. I have the coil and was due to get my current one replaced last June. However, my GP told me it was not currently replacing or fitting coils and sent me to a local sexual health clinic

who told me the same thing. I went back to my GP who told me to keep it in for another year and try again next June. The coil I'm currently using is supposed to last for five years, but it will now be in for six. I'm not sure if this is safe or if it will still be as effective for the extra year. No one has really offered much help or advice. Stay tuned. We're going to be talking about this probably in about 20 minutes time. And we'll try and get an answer for you on that one. If you want to add your experiences to that, do get in touch with us. We're at BBC Women's Hour on social media. Now, we've got maternity leave, we've got paternity leave, but what about later

down the line when your babies have grown up to teenagers? The teenage years can be a difficult time for all sorts of reasons. The struggles can be relatively mild or they can be severe, and more intense help is needed from specialists. However, we know from covering it on this programme many times that you can wait a long time for help from child and adolescent mental health services but if you're a working parent should you be entitled to specific leave to help your child out you could call it teen-ternity well that's what Suzanne Alderson did when her daughter went through a really tricky patch and now she's gone on to set up a charity called Parenting Mental Health. I'm pleased to say she's with us now.

Hi, Suzanne. Good morning. Now, I know that you've spoken to your daughter. She's happy for you to speak about her experiences. So, you know, we're not talking without her blessing. But give us a sense of the troubles that she experienced in her teenage years. Well, when she was 14, she was badly bullied at school and it had an increasingly poor impact on her mental health. And she declined to the point where she couldn't leave the house,

she couldn't sleep, she wasn't eating. And so I took her to see our GP. And I have to say that we probably ignored this a little bit for about 12 months, we thought that we could just get her through it was something just part of being a teenager. And then when she saw our GP and she was referred to CAMHS that you mentioned earlier with a nine to 12 week waiting list, it was clear that we couldn't wait that long. She declined rapidly. And he suggested that we go back and see her the following week, see him the following week. And when we did, she asked if she could go in on her own. And at that appointment, she disclosed to him that she had a plan to end her life imminently. Yeah, it was a very, very, very difficult time for us. And it was a start really of an extraordinary

time. We didn't know what to do as parents, we didn't know how to support her. She was very fortunate, because she was seen by CAMHS very quickly, but she did go on to attempt to end her life. And we found that we just were consumed by it. We had the person that we loved the most in the world, our child, and we just simply didn't know what to do. So it was an incredibly challenging time for us. She suffered with chronic depression, with anxiety, and obviously attempted suicide. And so this was just really isolating, really challenging on us as people and us as parents, and definitely on us as at the time, my husband and I ran a business together, and as employers and as functioning members of a team. So it absolutely impacted on every single part of our lives.

And so that's why I couldn't find any support really. So I decided that if we made it through, I'd make it my mission to make sure that no other parent felt like I did, which was really ill-equipped to deal with it, really isolated and also very judged. I was reading your story in the Daily Mail article today and you were talking about how you went to a business meeting and you were trying to you're trying to function you're running a business you're being professional but obviously obviously your thoughts are with your daughter and it's very difficult isn't it for parents I mean you were you say yourself you're in the privileged position I suppose that you were running your own business so you didn't have

to go to your employer and say look I need to take some time off. And I guess what's tricky is not everyone is in that position, are they? Absolutely. I was very, very fortunate. That's not to say, though, that there weren't challenges. And as you say, the Daily Mail article does talk about the meeting with a very nice client who clearly saw the challenges that I was facing. I was absolutely consumed with keeping my daughter alive. So deadlines and, you know, suicide don't really, don't really work together. I mean, I just really, at that time, obviously didn't necessarily care about very much other than keeping her alive. But saying that I still had a team that I worked with, I still had a team I was

responsible for, and I still had to explain to people why I was absent. And the judgment and the stigma around having a child with a mental health issue is enormous. And we talk about, let's talk more about mental health. But actually, there's still a judgment in society that in some way, you've caused this as a parent, that was your responsibility to stop it happening. And so that was incredibly challenging. And I also think in the same way as young people's cognitive function declines when they struggle with their mental health, the enormous stress of parenting a child with a mental health issue impacts on your ability to be present. And the people and the parents that I speak to and support with parenting mental health all want to be at work.

They don't want to be at home looking after a teenager as if they're a toddler, you know, not being able to let them out of their sight, wondering what they're going to wake up to, being scared to go to sleep. But it's a real challenge. And absolutely, we see a number of people who've had to lose, well, give up their jobs, they don't necessarily lose them, they give their jobs up, because they have to make a choice. And if you have a choice between working, and your choice between keeping your child alive, and I sound dramatic, and it absolutely is dramatic, then that's a very simple one. You have to give that up. So it's a really challenging situation. As an employer, I see the other side, but I really hope that we can start to break the stigma down so that parents don't have to explain in detail. They're not judged by the fact that their child might be struggling with depression or anxiety or an eating disorder.

And we can actually be more compassionate about the challenges that we face. Being a parent of a teenager is really hard anyway. Parenting a teenager with a mental health issue is off the charts difficult. And we have to be realistic here. The scales aren't there. There's obviously what you're talking about, which was an absolute crisis situation for your daughter. There's also, you know, teenagers just slightly going off the rails. And maybe as a parent, you just think, gosh, I need to step back from work, maybe just take a few weeks off, dedicate some time to them, be there for them, be more present than you're

able to be in everyday life. So we have to kind of acknowledge that scale. And it's important to say as well, that legally, you can request at the moment, can't you? Up to the age of 18, you can take time off work to be with your child, but it's limited to four weeks a year, and maybe in one or two week blocks, which is not necessarily going to help in this case. So are you an advocate for paid time off for parents with teenagers? Absolutely. Absolutely, I am. I think we seem to think that when we get to the teenage years, all of our responsibilities sort of seem to go away, drift away, and it must be something to do with, you know, them as a teenager.

And we know that the teenage brain is growing. We know it's likely to look out for risk. It wants to challenge. It wants to become independent. And I think it's really important that we see the teen years as vital as when we have a baby, when we have a toddler. And so I absolutely think that we should support that. I think there's also a point here, which is when your child has a mental health issue, you need to address the way that you parent.

You need to change the way that you parent. You need to change the way that you parent because the kind of authority top-down approach does not work. And so these are opportunities for us to become more connected, to build trust with our young people, to understand them more and for them to understand us. So I'm absolutely an advocate for paid time off for parents. But I think as well, we need to address the challenges of stigma around mental health and poor mental health, not only in young people, but also in that family environment. So we need to be able to talk to our employer. We need to be able to say, this is what is going on and know that we're not going to have

people at the water cooler talking about what's going on for us and judging us as people. So I think there's a lot of work to be done in terms of the way we approach it. But I would also love to see, you know, this this time being seen as a really valuable one for our society. A really important part of our family time is when we have teenagers, how we help them to become purposeful, healthy, happy adults. And I think at the moment we've got such a focus on the young years, which is so important, but equally the teenage years are vitally important too. Let me read you some of the messages which are coming in to us as people listen to our conversation.

You can get in touch on 84844 on the text. Through every life stage as a caregiver, I've had to be signed off myself or rely on extremely flexible colleagues to be able to manage extended periods of higher need and unpredictability that's from hillary thank you hillary for getting in touch um rosalind says trying to balance the needs of a depressed teen and work commitments mean you can do nothing right as a carer it's tough to be failing your child yourself and also that concern about failing your employer um another one here and i don't know if

you want to respond to this, and if you don't, it's absolutely fine. Why should people with children get paid leave for this, that and the other? Having children is a choice. What happens along the way is a risk you take when having children. People like me, childless by choice, are always left to pick up the slack, not to mention the predicament this puts employers in, having to try to fund not only the absentee, but also their temporary replacement. Do you want to respond? Absolutely. I'd love to respond to that. And I completely understand that position. What I would say is that society or the government organisation should support all of us through all of our choices. So, for example, if the listener liked ice skating and

then fell over and broke their leg. We would support that. And I think I understand the challenge. This is a broader challenge than ice skating and, you know, and having a child. But I think it's really important as a society that we do support parents. And we do understand that we all bring challenges, whether we've got children or not, to our role as an employee and that we deserve support because we are a compassionate society,

I would hope. Thank you ever so much for joining us. I'm really grateful to you. And I mean, I think it's worth saying as well, we were talking about CAMHS, which is the support service. You were lucky enough to get support with your daughter. Many people struggling. I mean, I was reading earlier today,

waiting lists for CAMHS have risen by more than a third in some places since the pandemic began. And I know anecdotally from speaking to to friends colleagues people just through my job that it's a real struggle for parents to get access to those critical services so thank you for speaking to us that is Suzanne Alderson sharing her stories with us and you can of course do the same we're at bbc woman's hour on social media now the latest netflix hit made is on track to beat the queen's gambit as its most watched uh mini series estimated to be streamed by 67 million households by the end of its first month on the platform it's a 10-part series it's about a single woman in the us she's a mum She flees her abusive partner and she takes up cleaning for wealthy clients to make a living for her and her daughter.

It tackles poverty, domestic abuse, motherhood and homelessness. And it's all been inspired by the 2019 memoir, Made, Hard Work, Low Pay and A Mother's Will to Survive, written by Stephanie Land. Well, it's been praised for its realistic depiction of emotional abuse. Let's speak now to Rachel Siggy, who is a freelance journalist and TV critic. And also with us is Karen Kipping, a divorce and separation coach and independent domestic violence advocate, who's also a survivor of domestic abuse.

Now, before we begin our conversation, let's first hear a clip from Made. This is when Alex, the main character, she's a single mum, is speaking to a social worker after fleeing her abusive partner, Sean. Matty's dad just, um, he drinks and, uh, he blacks out and punches stuff. Punches you? No. Punches Matty? No. No. Justdie? No, no, just... Last night, um... Last night was different and I got scared.

Did you file a police report? No. Do you want to call the cops now? It's not too late. And say what, that he didn't hit me? Let's bring in Karen and Rachel to talk about this Rachel in a minute we'll talk about the summary of the plot and the key characters but Karen I have to bring you in first on this because it really struck me when I I watched this this first episode of Made that it's almost like Alex doesn't recognize that she's in an abusive relationship because her partner didn't hit her

yes you're absolutely right. And for lots of women that are in abusive relationships, they don't realise that it's abusive. You know, I hear all the time from women saying, is this abuse? Am I right to feel like this? Because they don't see it as being as serious as physical abuse. And they only think of domestic abuse as being physical.

And we know that a lot of the time in these kind of relationships, it's that coercive control, it's that emotional abuse, that drip, drip effect of abusive behaviour that seeps into a relationship right from the beginning. It just escalates and escalates. And the physical abuse, if it's going to come, comes much later in lots of cases. And in this case, there was some physical abuse.

He was throwing things, he was punching walls, but because he wasn't actually physically hitting her, she didn't see that as abusive. Rachel, I want to bring you in on this because, gosh, it's difficult to watch. I cried when I watched the film. I was really dragged along. I felt like I was literally being dragged. You are living it with Alex.

And it's difficult to watch. But why do you think it's so popular? Well, I think exactly as you said, it is a tough watch. But the key is that it really draws us in and there's a risk with a story like this that it falls into the sort of poverty porn category where it's either completely relentless or the characters are defined by their circumstance or that we're sort of gawping at what's happening. And the show makes some really interesting creative decisions that sort of immerse you in Alex's story. From the start, we see a counter of her bank balance on the screen

ticking down the money in the account. And it's stressful to watch, nowhere near as stressful as it is for her, but it sort of gives us a little hint as to what she's experiencing. And there are also a few other tactics, like some fantasy sequences. For example, there's a moment where she's flicking through some forms and instead of what the forms actually say, we see it say, no one cares. So it really puts you sort of inside the mindset of Alex. I think what was also key is Alex is played by Margaret Qualley

and it's a really fantastic performance she's very compelling um it's extremely nuanced Alex is a flawed character but the relationship between her and her toddler daughter Maddie is really beautifully realized it's very authentic it's incredibly heartwarming and it's a show that just really makes you care about these characters which is why I think it's been such a word of mouth hit because on the surface it's a show that just really makes you care about these characters, which is why I think it's been such a word of mouth hit, because on the surface, it's a tough watch. And the first episode in particular is gruelling., wherever she turns, no one's giving her help. Her mum's next to useless. Her dad isn't great. Even her friends are like, oh, just go back to him. What's wrong?

You know, it's just a little tiff. And that in itself is is very difficult to watch. And I wonder how true that is for the women you work with that they feel people don't almost understand their situation. Yeah absolutely you know every turn she's trying to get help it's two steps forward and then it's one step back and at times she's forced to go back to the abusive home where she really doesn't want to go back to, but she has no choice. And of course, there's that realisation once she goes back, and especially when she's got no phone, she's got no car, she is really, really trapped. And you see her just breaking down and saying, I'm so stupid.

You know, she's not stupid, but she didn't realise the consequences of going back and how much things were going to escalate um and you know it does end in a more positive way and she does make those steps and she reaches out to the people that she knows can help her you know when she's desperate but it just shows you how difficult it is to leave those kind of relationships um you know she's got no money she's got no car she's very isolated and of course she's got no confidence um and she's really really trying to escape this abusive relationship for the sake of her and her daughter but it is so difficult i'm wondering how this fits within portrayals on TV.

I mean, we know, Rachel, that we often see things in soaps, don't we? But within soaps, there's lots of other storylines going on and you dip into it and then you come out. Whereas this is all focused. I wonder if both of you think it is a realistic and helpful portrayal. I mean, Karen, do you want to answer that first then, Rachel? Absolutely. I think it's helpful. I've heard lots of women talk about this series and, you know, they're saying, oh my gosh, I didn't realise that's what it was like. I didn't realise it was so difficult. I didn't realise how much that affected me, you know, and for people that have

been through it, it's validating how they felt in their own situation, they can relate it to their own, to their own relationship. And, you know, I hear all the time from people saying, but it's only emotional abuse. But it's only this, it's only him criticizing me, as if that's not valid valid as if their feelings aren't valid and actually what I always say to them is emotional abuse actually is worse than physical abuse sometimes because bruises fade you know those memories fade but the words are really hurtful and it you you can't unhear them once somebody said them to you you can't unhear them. Once somebody said them to you, you can't unhear them. And when they say bad words to you, often enough, you believe it. You know, he says in the drama,

you know, you're hurting my feelings, you went AWOL. So they take on a lot of guilt and blame for that abusive behaviour, even when it's not their fault. Rachel, what do you think with regards to its portrayal compared to other programmes? Well, as you said, we're starting to see this in soaps. There was a famous Archer storyline that looked at coercive control, which happened around the same time that it was being discussed in Parliament. We've seen it in Dominic savage's i am series uh we're definitely starting to get portrayals on the television and and in film which um which

look at abuse and domestic violence beyond physical violence or sexual violence and this emotional and financial abuse psychological abuse i think what made does that's really interesting is um once alex leaves the situation so much of the series is about her struggle both to see herself as a victim and then a survivor of that abuse and recognise it and also convince anybody that this is what's happening to her. abusive partner's friends side with him um but as you saw in the clip she doesn't believe herself that she is worthy of the services that might be on offer to her and i think the show in particular does a great job of um of making these other characters really multifaceted her ex sean is not a wholly unlikable person as many of these people are in real life he is an alcoholic he's a victim of abuse himself he's caught in this cycle of really really dangerous behavior um and there are moments

when he comes through for Alex even as he um he sort of destroys her sense of self um which as a viewer really immerses you in that idea that things are not black and white here there are a lot of gray areas and when Alex makes bad choices, it might not be that she's making a bad choice. It might just be that there are no good choices on offer there for her. Karen, before we wrap up this conversation, I think it's important if people are listening to this, whether they think they are in an abusive relationship, coercive control, emotional abuse, physical abuse, or a friend who thinks I'm worried about a friend, what's the advice you would give them? Educate yourself. So do your research,

you know, Google, look at the Women's Aid website, phone your local domestic abuse organisation, you can talk to them in confidence, nobody will know that you've called up. They will talk you through it. They will explain what options are open to you. I wrote a book called Recognition to Recovery exactly for those reasons so that people can pick it up and they can read it and they can understand what is happening to them and then look at how to get themselves out of it. So there is lots of information out there and there are organisations that you can speak to. There's the National Domestic Violence Helpline, which is a 24-hour free phone number that you can call. So try and do your research, get some clarity, make a plan, you know, think about it don't act um spontaneously if you can help it okay don't act um without thinking without planning um because you can actually put yourself more at risk if if you do that so wherever possible try and make a plan but get some support absolutely get

some support don't struggle by yourself. Well, we have got links and support organisations, details of those on our website so people can head there and get more information. Thank you both for joining us today. You heard there from Karen Kipping, divorce and separation coach and independent domestic violence advocate. We also heard from Rachel Siggy,

who's a freelance journalist and TV critic. We were talking earlier on about a report that had spoken to women in the military and talk about the levels of sexual harassment and abuse and bullying within the armed forces. We've got a text which has come in here on 84844. My 17 year old daughter is currently in training in the army and is the only girl in her troop. She loves the training, but is finding it difficult to be the only girl and has faced situations such as one of the lads getting into bed with her when he was drunk at the weekend. She dealt with this, but from what she's told me,

it's still difficult to complain to the hierarchy. She could bypass her corporal, but that would be seen negatively or she could go to her corporal and probably be seen as a situation that they don't want to deal with. Thank you for sharing that story with us. Sorry to hear that your daughter is having to go through that right now. Get in touch with us at BBC

Women's Hour on social media. Now, there has been a sharp fall in the number of women able to access long-acting, reversible contraception during the pandemic. Known as LARCs, they're more popular than ever before. So we're talking the coil, the implant or injection. But despite being the most effective and popular method of contraception, the Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare has discovered the sharp

drop. Let's talk to Alice Pelton, the founder of The Lowdown. It's the world's first review platform of contraception. And also with us is Dr. Asha Kazlawell, who is the president of the Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare and an NHS community gynaecologist in Manchester. Hi to both of you. Good morning, Chloe. Good morning. Dr. Caslewell, first of all, do we know why there has been this drop, this sharp drop in the number of women being able to access this long acting reversible contraceptive during the pandemic? Well, there were problems from before the pandemic, and I'll outline some of them and then explain those to you in more detail. So the kind of commissioning, the funding arrangement since the Health and Social Care Act of 2012 and then the public health grants being cut since 2015, a 24% cut, and also then the pandemic, which worsened everything else. If I explain to you what this means to women, the Health and Social Care Act, what it did is it gave responsibility of different

bits of women's reproductive health to different organisations. So, for example, a woman needing a smear, managing her heavy periods and her contraception, for example, all three things came from different pots. And that made it very difficult for a woman to get everything at one go, which means, of course, that there is more strain on the system because you need three appointments for something that could be done with one. And also it meant that women have to undress and be examined numerous times for things that could be done together. So that's one reason. And of course, the funding cuts, which meant that obviously the services couldn't be as good or as accessible as before, because you can only become efficient to a degree, isn't it? And after that, a 24% cut in real-time funding, real-time funding means that services will

get affected. So we've essentially got, just to sum up, we've essentially got a reduction in budget. We've got the services have been fragmented to lots of different places. And this is being reflected on the messages that we're getting this morning. People telling us that they're having to go a long way. For example, here, there's a text saying I'm 25. I have a coil. It expired in August. I've still been unable to have it removed and replaced. This week, the sexual health clinic said I can't even get a telephone consultation till the end of November. As a teacher, it's almost impossible for me to book a doctor's appointment for this during the week.

We've had two people who've said they've got contraception in for longer than it should be. Should people be worried by that? Just briefly, if you've got a coil in for a year, we heard, longer than you should, is it going to work? Some coils remain effective for longer and we have excellent advice for women on our website. So on the FSRH website, there is advice for women because it can be safe and effective. Certain coils definitely can be. Okay. Let's bring in Alice now because Alice, just explain a little bit about your platform and how women essentially review contraception and say how it works for them. Yeah, so the Lowdown is a review

platform for contraception. We've collected over 5,000 reviews on every method and brand, and we're building a really safe space and community to help women talk about, share their experiences and access content, tools, prescriptions and consultations to really help them navigate this minefield. And the coil is something that is most popular on your site. People are saying that it works for them and they're sharing their experiences. Yeah, in terms of overall satisfaction rating, the hormonal coil gets 3.6 out of 5. And the copper coil comes in a close second with 3.4 out of 5. And the hormonal coil is increasingly popular because it releases a much lower dose of hormones into our body every day. And that means that women at the low down are reporting less of a negative impact on things like mood, sex drive and headaches.

So only half of women who reviewed the hormonal coil at the low down say it didn't impact their mood versus only about 20 percent of women who reviewed the pill. It stops most women's periods, which lots of us love. It's very effective. It lasts three to five years. And your normal fertility is quite quick to return if you can get it removed. So, yeah, it's definitely one of the methods that we see most women satisfied with. But it is important, isn't it? Coils can go wandering. And I've been I've experienced this myself. So it's very important that people make sure that they do know where they are and keep track of them. Dr. Castorwell, there have been reports that there's almost like a generational gap, if you like, in female health care.

There was one report this week that said women over the age of 35 are waiting over a year to access contraception like the coil. But younger women are being seen faster. Is this true in your experience? Our members are reporting that everybody's finding it hard to access long-acting reversible contraception. What has happened in some places is, of course, there has been a lot of focus on young people and reduction of teenage pregnancy young people getting access to contraception and in some places that may be true but my own experience and that of most of our members is that in every age group there is

difficulty at the moment in accessing long-acting reversible contraception. Also, there are reports, and I'd be interested to get your thoughts on this, saying that poor access to long-term contraception is linked to the rising abortion rates in older women. Do you see that link or do you think that's just too simplistic? Yeah, I would say abortions are multifactorial. So contraception or lack of it can contribute. But in reality, there are so many factors for why women choose to have an abortion. Currently, many households are facing financial crisis. That could be a reason. So there are several reasons. I wouldn't say it would be just this one thing. Let me share some more of the messages which are coming in to us because we're getting lots on them.

My 20-year-old daughter was bleeding heavily for weeks, but we could not get her coil removed by our GP practice or the sexual health clinic. After looking into a private option, which would cost £600, we made a formal complaint to the GP and she brought in a specialist nurse to remove the

coil. And then another one here, I had a nightmare accessing a diaphragm. My doctors didn't know how to fit one or where to get one and kept pushing me to the coil, which I didn't want. I had to drive for an hour to get a diaphragm fitted at a family planning clinic as that was the nearest place I could find. It was so frustrating and I felt nobody listened to me or my needs. If people are listening to this, Dr Asha, and thinking, you know, I need to change my contraception or I want to get some long-lasting reversible contraception, but they're struggling to access it, do you have any advice for them? What should we be doing? Where should we be looking? I think, you know, it's really important that we make a noise about this.

And the Department of Health is looking into it. There is a lot of work going on for, you know, clearing the backlog of the long acting reversible contraception lists. And there is work undergoing, but more needs to be done. And I think, you know, 51% of our population is women and most women need contraception, smears, etc. sometime or the other in their lives. But we hesitate to talk about it and we don't shout about it. And I think, you know, making ourselves heard, making it clear that we need the support is really, really important. You know, we've got two strategies coming up, again, two separate strategies around women's health. And we need to ensure that there are good outcome measures in there where access is one of the most important things. So we need to shout about it. As women, we need to make a fuss and we need to make our voices heard. Listen, thank you so much, both of you, for speaking to us today. Very grateful to you for your time. You heard there from Dr. Asha Casliwell, who is

president of the Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare and also Alice Pelton, founder of the Lowdown, the world's first review platform for contraception. Just to let you know, we did approach the Department for Health and Social Care for a statement to respond to this, but as yet, we haven't received one. Now, the blogger Toni Tone has thousands of followers across social media, many of whom call her the big sister I never had. Her work on relationships and female empowerment have been shared by the likes of Demi Lovato, Khloe Kardashian and Oprah magazine. Well, Toni's new book is called I Wish I Knew This Earlier.

It's a Sunday Times bestseller and details her advice on the complicated and sometimes, let's be honest, painful world of dating. And she's with us now. Hi there, Tony. Good morning. So this is a really interesting book because it's divided into three sections, isn't it? It's the dating stage, it's the loving stage, and then the stage we don't like to think about, but the separation and the kind of healing. Just talk us through your thinking with that.

So the reason why I separated it into those three parts is that for a lot of people, that basically makes up our relationship experiences, dating, loving and potentially heartbreak. And I split it up in three sections because I wanted the reader to be able to read the book in the order that suited their journey right now. And that was key for me. And I mean, there's different challenges, aren't there? Because nowadays there are so many podcasts, there are so many books, there's social media, there's websites, there's self-help. And you sometimes wonder, do we sometimes overanalyse the whole world of dating and relationships? Do we need to sometimes just go with the flow or am I being incredibly naive here? You know what? It's actually really great that you said that because one of the lessons in my book,

my book is all about lessons on love, but one of my lessons is the fact that sometimes we do focus too much on the journey, too much on the future, too much on potential. And we'll get more out of our relationships if we learn to appreciate the moment. So I do agree with you. Good. That's what I like to hear. Let's look at the first chapter. Let's look at the dating stage. This is the longest. And what are the kind of tips that you're giving people when we're approaching dating? Because it could be that this is for young people, but also we mustn't forget,

if people are older and coming out of relationships, dating can be absolutely terrifying if you haven't done it for a long time. Yes, that is very, very true. And one lesson that really stands out to me in the dating section of my book is dating as your authentic self. I think sometimes, and my book is aimed largely at women, but I know

that men have read it too, but I think society often tells women that their value is tied to being connected to another person, and particularly heterosexual women. Your value is tied to being connected to a man. And as a result of this damaging narrative, there are many women who enter dating and their aim is to impress, but they try to impress to the point that they lose authenticity. And by that, what I mean is that they're not true to themselves and their goal is securing a partner as opposed to finding someone who will be good for them. And so that's almost this self-betrayal that you talk about in the book. Yes. Self-betrayal is one, I think one of the

favourite lessons in the book that people seem to keep sharing. And that's about deprioritising your needs, under-prioritising your wellbeing, dismissing your values in the hope to secure or maintain love. Do we get worse at that as we get older? I mean, forever people are talking about, oh, you know, whenever you turn, you know, could be getting late, tick, tick, you know, if you want to have children, don't leave it too late. You know, people are very keen to offer this advice, particularly obviously to young women. And sometimes is there a danger that we kind of just try to people please and say yes to things that we wouldn't normally agree to

because we're aware of that. Definitely. I think women in particular do that a lot and society certainly plays a massive role in that. And society often applies pressure to women to settle down, if you will, or get married or find a partner. But one thing that I wanted to stress in my book, particularly in the dating stage, was the importance of self-love and self-love being that you need to acknowledge what is important to you, your own needs and desires and your own values.

And you need to align yourself with these things, with the knowledge that trying to impress other people or trying to align yourself with these things, with the knowledge that trying to impress other people or trying to align yourself with societal deadlines is actually going to do more damage to your personal life than good. Now, was the loving stage the easiest bit to write in the sense that it's the bit when we're the happiest? So maybe it's not as challenging. You know what, for me, the dating stage is actually the easiest to write. But the loving stage, the loving stage, interestingly, doesn't necessarily focus on just the happy bits. It's actually about navigating relationships in a way that benefits you and your partner.

So for example, one lesson in that section of the book is that the value of communication and how communication isn't just about talking, it's also about listening. And sometimes in relationships, people don't always listen to understand. And we might be quick to the mark when it comes to sharing a rebuttal when we're in the midst of conflicts. And we don't necessarily give our partners sometimes the safe space and the ability to be completely open and vulnerable with us. So the loving stage had a lot of tough lessons that I learned from being in my own relationships in my 20s. And we've got to talk about the healing stage because that's obviously the

bit that we don't want to think about with breakups, but it's the reality that we all have to face at some time or another. Yes. And this section was, yeah, I think this section was the toughest because of that reason. It's very emotive. But what I wanted to get across in this section is that a lot of people feel like heartbreak is this story or the end of this story. But when you go through any type of breakup, it's just a chapter in your book. It is not the end of your story. And I wanted that to come across in that lesson. And I also wanted to reinforce the importance of maintaining boundaries and understanding that sometimes exes may come back into our life, not because they want to add value, but because they want to strike their ego and they want to maintain access to us. So it was about sharing those lessons to help people navigate not just the pain of heartbreak, but also some of the things that we may have to do to protect

ourselves during the process. Do you think as a society, we underestimate the pain and the grief that comes with heartbreak and people can be quite dismissive when you're utterly heartbroken after a breakup? Certainly, it comes with so much grief. And I think that the feelings you feel during an intense heartbreak is not too different from the feelings you feel after a bereavement because you have lost someone. And navigating that can be tough, not just because you've lost an individual, but you've also lost what is connected to them. It could be their family, it could be their friends, and your life could completely change after a breakup. And I think that society definitely needs to be more compassionate with people after heartbreak, because it's incredibly, incredibly tough, particularly

on our mental health. And I don't think enough people consider that. And you also look at the issue of convincing ourselves that after a relationship has broken down, it's not a waste of time. It's an experience. Yes, yes. I'm definitely big on lessons. And one thing I wrote in my book is that in every experience, we have lessons we can take away and that's true for positive and negative experiences they each come with lessons and I did mention that even with the negative experiences in relationships and in love they teach you what you do and what you don't want from partners in the future and I think that it's very important for people to be compassionate with themselves when they've been in relationships that haven't worked out.

And to understand that although the relationship may have taken a big chunk of your life or your time away, there are things that happen in the relationship that can help you shape your future for the better. Thank you so much for coming on the programme and speaking to us today. That is the blogger Toni Tone. Her new book is out. I wish I knew this earlier. Thanks for all of your messages today. Lottie has got in touch on Twitter to say, I've often wondered why when contraception advice and support is so important that it's always in a clinic on a back street and only open a few days a week. Why isn't it on the high street opened all day for drop-ins it's a great question listen thank you all so much for listening to woman's hour today and for all of your contributions we're going to be back at the same time tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock i hope you can join us then that's all from today's woman's hour i hope you can join us again next time thanks for listening to the podcast i'm here to tell you about Deadhouse.

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