Woman's Hour - Malala Yousafzai, Briana Corrigan, Exclamation marks

Episode Date: October 31, 2025

NB: The music in this broadcast has been removed from this podcast for rights reasons.Thrust onto the public stage at 15 years old after the Taliban’s brutal attack on her life, Malala Yousafzai became an international icon for resilience and bravery. Described as a reflection on a life of a woman finally taking charge of her destiny, her memoir Finding My Way has just been published. She joins Anita Rani in the Woman’s Hour studio.Anita talks to sport correspondent FFion Wynne about the Indian women's cricket team win against Australia in the Women's Cricket World Cup, and up and coming player Jemimah Rodriques. She set a women's one day international record - a remarkable achievement.Briana Corrigan shot to fame in the 1990s with the BRIT award-winning band, The Beautiful South. After leaving the band, she’s had several successful albums of her own and now, after 10 years away from the music industry, she’s back with an upcoming album and tour. She performs her single Sweet Songbird live in the studio. A new study in the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology in which researchers looking at how the use of explanation marks relates to gender. Their findings suggest that the use of explanation marks is associated more with women than men. But is this true and if so in what ways are women affected more than men and what are the implications? Anita is joined by the linguist, Professor Deborah Cameron and the author and journalist Melanie McDonough to discuss. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Corinna Jones

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like my mother. Love me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. While you're here, I wanted to let you know about the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, your toolkit for the juggle, the struggle and everything in between. Life is complicated and often incredibly busy. So whether you're fixing a problem at one of life's crossroads or just looking to shake things a bit, this is the guide you'll need to help you survive and even thrive. Each episode brings together world-class experts with women sharing their honest, powerful stories, offering real insight and also practical tips that really work. From work and career to relationships

and family issues, the focus is on helping you grow, also adapt and overcome life's curve walls. It's your companion, your life coach, it's your Woman's Hour Guide to Life. Join us only on BBC Sounds, but now, back to today's Woman's Hour. Good morning and welcome to the program. At age 11, she was on TV telling the world about life under Taliban control. By 15, she'd had gained so much influence that the extremists tried to kill her. By 17, she'd won the Nobel Peace Prize. And today, Malala Yusuf Sai is here at the Woman's Hour, office. to tell us about how life has panned out since. Also on the programme, music from Brianna Corrigan.

Her voice has been described as so spell-bindingly beautiful that it could melt icebergs at 50 paces. You will definitely know her from her time with the beautiful south. Delighted to say, Brianna will be singing live later. We're also discussing punctuation, or more specifically, exclamation marks do women use them more than men? And why? And cricket.

India have made it to the Women's World Cup final. they'll be playing South Africa. We'll be looking at one Indian player in particular, Jamima Rodriguez. She burst into tears on the pitch when her team got through. As a young girl, Jemima, was so obsessed with playing cricket that she cut out a photo of her own face and stuck it over an image of the national team's jersey. So you can imagine where her emotions were coming from.

So this morning, I'd like to ask you all about a childhood dream that may have come true for you. Anything from meeting a hero, doing the dream job traveling to these. destination. Maybe your life is beyond your wildest dreams. Whatever. Get in touch with me in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email the program by going to our website. You can WhatsAppers on 0700-100-444 and of course following us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Your Wildest Dreams or your childhood dream did it come true. You can also text me once again. It's

84844. But first, Malala Yusuf Sai was thrust. onto the public stage, age 15 years old, after the Taliban's brutal attack on her life in 2012. Following this, she became an international icon for resilience and bravery, going on to become the youngest ever Nobel Peace Prize recipients at just 17. Well, her funny, enlightening, thoughtful memoir, Finding My Way has just been published, and I'm so pleased to say she's here with me now in the Woman's Hour studio. Malala, welcome to the program. Thank you so much, Anita.

We're talking about dreams. You carried a dream of graduating from university, even when no single woman around you had been. And we're asking listeners to tell us their childhood dreams. Tell me about yours. I did not take my education for granted because I was only 11 years old when I saw a ban on girls' education by the Taliban. And I knew I had to become an activist to fight for my right to be in school

because I could not see a future without an education. Fast forward, you know, I was attacked for daring to speak out about it and I became a global activist after that. But when I went to university and when I finished my education, that's the moment when I felt that I had won. Actually, I succeeded in my mission to make my childhood dream come true. That was to be able to graduate from a university. it was a personal inner victory that I felt.

Where did that dream come from when no one around you had been to university? Where does that inspiration and aspiration come from? Where did it come from for you? For me, it was more of a survival than a dream because I had seen around me how girls without an education could not make their dreams come true. They all wanted to be either doctors or teachers. They wanted to make a living for themselves.

but because of the cultural norms, education was either discouraged or there were not enough schools for girls. So I come from the north of Pakistan and in a lot of parts of Pakistan, education is still a big challenge for girls. So I just thought like my life would be very different if I don't go to school. I might have a similar story to other girls being forced into marriage at an early age and then expecting to be making kids and just like being. limited to the four walls of the house. And I just could not imagine that for myself. And when the Taliban imposed a ban on girls education, that's when I realized that education is so powerful for women's empowerment that the first thing that the oppressors take away from women and girls is their education. That's where they begin. I wanted to read this very short extract from the

book because for me it summarizes where you started on this journey. At 15 years old, I hadn't yet had the chance to figure out who I wanted to be when suddenly everyone was telling me who I was. An inspiration, a hero, an activist, but also a wallflower, a punchbag, a paycheck. This book, Finding My Way, is about you breaking free of that and telling us who you really are. Why was that important to you? So I did not immediately know who I was going to be, but I allowed myself to be on this journey where I could explore things, where I could know myself. And I knew that would be possible if I go into college and I make some friends. And I have these experiences that usually, you know, I would not, I would be, I felt like I was under the surveillance of my parents at home in Birmingham or I was at work. I was at events, conferences. So my exposure was very, very limited. I could not even go for like a pizza night with friends at high school. That's how limited my exposure was. And at this high school in Birmingham, of course it was like a wonderful school, but I had made only one best friend.

And that's only because she fell out with her other best friend. So I filled in the gap. At college, I told myself that there's just one goal. And that is to make friends because I did not want to feel lonely. I missed that old Malala that I was back in Pakistan. So in college, like I remember the first week, I was signing up for every club, every society, Hindu society, Muslim society, Christian society, rowing, cricket, badminton, Oxford Union, anything you can think of. And I wanted to go there, not just to have these experiences,

but because I wanted to meet new people so I can make friends. Yeah, absorb it all. It's a beautiful coming-of-age story. There's so much in this book. It's a love story. There's a lot of first crush, first clubbing experience, rebellions, first McDonald's. Now, for most people, that happens before you get to university. Malala, you're not alone because for most South Asian girls,

this happens when we leave home. But so much of your story is different. for starters, even packing clothes for university because you had to hide what you'd packed from your mum, didn't you? Yes, I had to hide those things because my mom loves Pakistani Shalwar Gamis. She wants it to be colourful, embroidered, flashy. I said, Mom, I have to be wearing clothes like any other student, which is just, you know, jeans and a jumper and a grey sweater. Maybe at that time, I was going on Google and looking up what was, you know, what was casual style and then I looked up

Salina Gomez casual that actually helped and yeah so I remember you know sneaking in and just putting the you know my my preferred clothes in the in the bag so I can wear what I wanted

it was it was a journey you know my yeah I have an interesting relationship with my mom yeah you have to kind of take them on the journey with you and you know you they are brought to a bit or your mom's specifically but her generation in one particular specific culture conditioned to be a certain way and your experience is completely different. Yes. So, you know, I was always like mad at my mom for being so strict. But with, you know, as years went by, I realized that she had seen a very different reality for girls in her village. She herself never completed her education.

All, all the women, her friends at her time never went to college. They, like, it's. and she had terrible stories of these girls being married off or women being thrown acid on their faces or being killed. And, you know, for her it was about protecting her daughter from all of these terrible things happening to her because, you know, it would be simple, small things like this woman was wearing clothes that were seen as against the culture or that were too tight or she was seen like maybe,

be secretly talking to a boy, and these things would cause such a big controversy that the girls would be harmed or even killed. Yeah, something that's simple as clothes that I think for a lot of people might take for granted, but actually for you, there is a political statement. Like something else that happened to you is when you signed up to rowing club. You wore a pair of jeans to the session. It was a really early morning session, but you got papped, and you managed to upset what you refer to as the secular mob, who criticized you for wearing the headscarf, and the denim police.

people who might think that you've abandoned your faith and culture. So why do you, you have to walk this tightrope, don't you? Yes, and firstly I was very shocked by the controversy that was created out of me wearing jeans. Secondly, just looking at the debates and the arguments people were putting forward. On the one hand, people were saying that I was somehow supposed to represent the traditional dress everywhere I went and I could not have a normal college life. and then I also saw how people were defining what a secular or what a liberal woman should dress like. And I think in all of this, what you realize is that it's other people determining for women what they should wear

and women lose the right to make these choices for themselves. So I knew that, you know, it's going to be a journey for me. I can choose what I want. It could be shall be chemis. It could be jeans. It could be anything, but it's about my choice. And, you know, I hope that people, like, start respecting each other's choices. Yeah.

Because I don't think it's never, your brother doesn't ever criticize with their clothes, are they? So I remember, like, getting this phone call from my parents, they were really worried. And my mom was sort of hoping that, you know, maybe I can switch back to my traditional clothing. And I remember telling both my parents that, like, you guys are concerned about me, But my brothers, when they moved to the UK, they immediately switched to, like, you know, jeans and hoodies and all of that. The Western clothing, we did not receive any call from our relatives. Nobody was criticizing it. Even my dad, he wears, you know, trousers and a suit or T-shirt and all of that.

And it's not a problem. It's just me and my mom who have to carry on the culture. Like why is it always on the women's shoulder that they are a symbol of honor for the culture? And it's a whole different topic. Honor killings are still a reality in many parts of the country. But we have to stand up to these things.

So I told my parents, I'm going to stick to what I want to wear. Good for you. And also we should remove the word honor from honor killings because there is no honor in that. Exactly. Rebellion is a big theme in the. book, something people may not expect of you, but it's always been there. So tell me about this

side of view and then thinking about sort of you as a child. Yeah, I often say that firstly I wanted to be a normal student, but then I also wanted to be a more rebellious, cooler student than others. So I did not say no to any adventurous opportunity that came along my way. I heard about rooftop climbing. So they are like night climbers. And yeah, when I was told about this, you have to go up to the top floor of the college building and go and climb the bell tower. I said, of course, like, I am up for it. So I told my security team that I was done with the day. So this is something we should mention.

It's about your experience at uni. And you have a security team with you at university. Yes. So I think that made things a lot easier because I did not have to worry about safety. But, yes. But except for the rooftop climbing, then I told them, like, you know, they're off duty now. It sounds terrible.

Did you really have to jump between buildings? You have to jump between buildings and it's a very like narrow ledge and it's a very scary experience but it's it's thriller. It's amazing. Like I I just felt a sense of freedom and liberation through it and I had no fear of getting into trouble. I was worried a bit but I thought you know what? I think it's truly worth it because I never thought that I could.

Just allow myself to be doing these things without feeling like I have to live up to any expectations or think about who will see this and who will talk about this or did I somehow fail in, you know, being the ideal person that my parents or my community or somebody else imagines me to be. You talk about one late night experience with a university friend trying at marijuana and how that propelled you into a really terrifying place. Can you describe what happened to you, but also how you came through it? Yeah. So firstly, you know, these things are very common, but this was like my first time seeing a bong. So I had never seen it before. And this became my first and last time. That's a disclaimer I want to make because I thought this would be a fun night.

And the first time I attempted to inhale it, I coughed. And on the second attempt, when I inhaled it, it went inside my. body and that's when everything changed because immediately in that moment I froze and I was reliving the time that I was living after I was attacked by the Taliban and I was in a coma for a week. I had these repeated images and flashbacks of the Taliban killing me and it just happened again and again and again and now like seven years later out of nowhere because of this bong incident, I was reliving all of those flashbacks. I was, I think I was paranoid. I could not move. I was shaking. And I was so scared to sleep as well because I thought if I close my eyes,

I will never wake up. And after that, I started getting panic attacks. I had anxiety. I was not being myself anymore. Even my friends started noticing. And my friends were very kind. They offered sleepovers just to help me through it. But then it was finally a friend of mine after a few months that she suggested that I see a therapist. And that's when I started considering therapy.

And it changed everything for me. Yeah. I found that bit of the book. So, I mean, there's so much in it. You take us on this beautiful story of friendship and coming of age. And then you really, you're so hit so hard. this part of the book, because you're so honest and so vulnerable about your mental health and the struggles. Why was it important for you to put that in the book? You know, I have always been

defined as brave and courageous so much that I internalized it. And when I recovered from the Taliban incident at age 15, for me, it was all about physical recovery. I can walk, I can talk. I think I'm feeling good. And now I'm on this journey to advocate. for girls globally. What we did not consider at the time was therapy. I was actually offered a therapist, but I said no because I thought like it's a sign of a weakness. And, you know, in Pakistan, growing up, we had never really heard about therapy. And usually the mental health topic would be, you know, sort of discouraged or there's a stigma attached to it. And I'm sure a lot of people in South Asia would be familiar with that. Is there even a word for anxiety? No.

No, not in like my local Pashto language. And this was, you know, like I, now when I look back, I think this therapy was this unaddressed part of my treatment that we had left behind. So I started therapy seven years later, but I think it was still not late. And I'm glad that I started receiving therapy. And I remember in my first therapy session, I asked the therapist, you know, like, oh, okay, like, what's the cure? I told her all my problems and I said, give me the medication now, give me the cure.

Exactly, fix it. But, you know, she reminded me that it will take time. We will walk through these things and, you know, with time it gets smaller and smaller. And she was very right. Like, it's time that's really helpful. It's the experts, the professional support that's really helpful. And I had to talk about it because I was thinking that there might be somebody out there

who might not be aware of it. of this or who, you know, may think that it's a sign of a weakness to them. So, you know, in this, in this time, I felt that I had failed to live up to the expectations of being brave and courageous and that if I am scared from nothing, then that means that I'm not being true to myself. But I realize that actually we need to redefine bravery. And it's when you still do what you believe in even when you are scared. I have not only been reading your book, but I've also been listening to you as well,

which is a wonderful experience to hear because you're such a great orator. So to hear you in my ears as well as read you, I was walking down Tottenham Court Road the other day with tears in my eyes. And I'll tell you the bit it was. It was when you returned to Pakistan for the first time. And you visit your grandma and your best friend. friend. Yes. How was that experience? You talk about your grandma with such love. Yes. And I was

very, very close to my grandma and I wanted to see her. It had been five years since we had to leave Pakistan. And I wanted to see home because I always felt that there was something missing. I could not connect the life that I was living right now, traveling around the world. And this life that I had in Pakistan, I wanted it to reconnect. And we had tried to go back to Pakistan many, many times. But there was always something happening, a political issue, a rally, a protest. And I told my dad that if we are waiting for the right or the perfect time to go to Pakistan when everything is fine, we will never find it. So regardless, like, I'm getting my ticket and I'm going to Pakistan. I met my school friend, Muniba. And, you know, she was on the school bus with me.

Yes. And I always, I've asked her many, many times, does she remember what happened? because I do not actually, like, recall the incident. That's what I think. And she would just, you know, tell me each time how she saw everything. But what she told me on this trip was that, you know, when everything happened, she was terrified for weeks. And she thought, like, she might have been attacked as well. And what I realized, that, you know, I was living the physical pain and the scars of the injury,

and she was living the memory. of it. She had seen it. She was covered in your blood, wasn't she? Yes. Yes. And she told me that I had like held her hand so tight that she felt the pain for days and she was scared. She could not even like sleep on her own anymore. She had to sleep with her mom. And so like all the girls went through a lot. Two of my other friends who were also attacked by the Taliban bullets on that day. They're now in Edinburgh. They're

studying. They like they finished their nursing and they are doing amazing things. But so many girls on that day on the bus saw so many terrible things. But I was just so happy that everybody was now getting their education and everybody was doing well. So that trip to Pakistan gave me a sense of completion. And I felt relieved. I felt happier. And I was so happy that I saw my home and my family and everybody. It's a really moving part of the book as well. It's also a love story. You do tell your resistance to getting married, although you were evidently in love with your husband for a long time before you agreed to marry him. What made you say yes?

I took my time. I took... Quite right, Malala. Exactly, exactly. I was not sure about marriage for myself because growing up, I had seen how girls take away, how girls' future are taken away by forced marriages or by child marriages. And, you know, I saw even my own, like, female cousins have this, very dark future ahead of them so I said you know what the best thing is to stay away from marriage and never get married that's how

girls can have a future but I also realize that even if we are living in a developed country there are still challenges to women they have to make more compromises their career everything is affected in a different way when they get married so I just thought like everything that I do for women's empowerment all of that like I'm compromising if I consider marriage because as an institution it has that patriarchal element in it. But then I was,

of course, in love as well. So I was then researching, reading authors like, you know, Bell Hooks, please help me. Virginia Woolf, please. Dolly Alderton. I love this bit in the book. You and your very smart crew of friends, by the way, it's also a brilliant tale of friendship, the girls that you meet at uni, decide that you're going to read everything that women have written about love and deduce. Yeah, that's right. Yes, it was amazing. You need to write that book, by the way. You've done all the research.

Can you have Malala on love, please? I know. But then in the end, I spent time with Aser, and I knew that he was the right person because, you know, he was so supportive and he understood my fear, my anxiety. And that's when you know, like, you know, he is the right one. But I also felt a lot happier with him. And I thought that, yes, he would bring so much more joy to my life. So we both, you know, loved each other and, yeah, then I knew it was the right time.

Good. We're happy for you. You deserve it. What do you see your role as now? Wow, that's a big. An activist? Yeah. Yes, you know, I am an activist and girls' education is my life's mission. I started Malala Fund many, many years ago. And today we are working with local education activists, including in countries like Nigeria,

Pakistan, Brazil, Afghanistan, like Tanzania, Ethiopia, and many other places. And, you know, right now I'm thinking about girls in Afghanistan because it's the only country in the world where girls are banned from education beyond grade six. Women are not allowed to go to universities or work or be in the parliament. And it's not that things were perfect for Afghan women, but they had worked for 20 years to get something for themselves to have their rights and to have. representation in society and all of that was taken away from them when the Taliban took over so it's been more than four and half years and things are getting worse and worse day by day I had a conversation with Afghan girls on Zoom who are part of these underground schools and they were telling me that they are still determined to keep learning at home and one girl told me that

even in her room, when she picks up a book and she reads and she learns, she feels that it's a form of resistance against the Taliban. So I think Afghan women activists, they need more solidarity and support. What's happening in Afghanistan is a form of a gender apartheid. And it is systemic oppression. And I think we need to stand with them because it's not just about women's and girls' rights in Afghanistan, but it's about women and girls everywhere. you're absolutely right and we talk about women in Afghanistan and women's

a lot I'd like to end with one simple question about cricket though because I know you're a huge cricket fan in fact the Afghan women's team are in Australia because they can't play in Afghanistan but they are in Australia yes as an ardent cricket fan who will you be supporting in the final between India and South Africa oh I know it's a tough one that is a tough question I I've been to South Africa, I went there to speak at the Nelson Mandela lecture, and it was amazing because, like, South African activists are also supporting the Afghan women. And I love the message of solidarity and working collectively to support other women in, and so, yes, I mean, I have, I put you on the spots. I know, I support both teams.

And I think the Indian team is also, I mean, incredible. They're, like, excellent. So I think they're going to win. that's what I'm going to say. The Indian team will win. I'll let you end that on a diplomatic note. But India, it's a good one. We'll find out because we're going about to talk about it right now. Malala, thank you so much for coming to speak to us.

And finding my way is available now. Thank you. Thank you so much. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a, it's just a really. deep self-hate.

I think I cried almost every day. I just stood myself on the floor. It's coming on really straight. It's like he's trying to date you all of the sudden. Yeah, and I do look like my mother. Love me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Now, in a dramatic game,

India's women's cricketers have beaten the reigning World Cup holders, Australia, and we'll go on to play South Africa in the final on Sunday. The win was pretty much down to the astounding play of one young, up-and-coming player, Jamima Rodriguez. She's set a women's one-day international record, a remarkable achievement. BBC sports correspondent Fiona Wynne was there to watch it. Fionne, tell us more about Jemima and tell us how she won the game. Yeah, it was electric. It was like nothing really we've ever seen.

And women's cricket before in terms of not only the quality and the skill, but just the pure emotion of it you saw, you know, there were these scenes when the winning runs were hit for India where obviously they're playing at home, they're playing in Mumbai, so the crowd was fully behind them, the noise was something else. And, you know, the way she sunk to the floor and she was in tears, it was just this enormous outpouring of emotion as if she couldn't quite believe what she'd done yet, and I'm sure it will probably take some time for it to sink in for her.

But in terms of the, you know, the effect that it could have on, not only her, but for Indian women's cricket, I mean, it could change the game entirely. Well, let's hear from her and how she thinks she's achieved this. Towards the end, actually, if you would have seen, I was not able to. I was trying to push myself and not able to do. I told Dipti, Dipti keep speaking to me. Dipti, every ball was speaking to me and encouraging me.

Then Ritcha came, she started lifting me up. So, you know, I am so blessed that I have, when I cannot carry on my teammates encourage me to carry on, and I can't take credit for anything of this. I know I've done nothing. I want to thank my mom, my dad, my coach, and every single person who just believed in me throughout this time, it was really hard these last whole month,

but it just feels like a dream and it's not sunken yet. She's very emotional there, but quite a defining moment, as you said, in women's cricket. What do we know about her? Yeah, you can just hear it all in her voice, can't you? She's only 25 years old, Jamima, but she's been playing for India for a while. now. You know, she's made her debut in 2018. So it feels like she's mature beyond her years. But

in terms of the way that she speaks about her family, she's, you know, she's a very humble character. She's one of the most, you know, she's known for being so bubbly and so, you know, energetic, not only in the way she bats, but in terms of how she speaks as well. So this was quite a different side of her that we got to see in terms of that emotion and how it really, really hit her and you know she was dropped from the the indian side for last year's t20 world cup she was dropped only a couple of games ago where india lost to england um so she's you know that's the anxiety she speaks about in terms of not being quite secure in herself and her role but you know she started playing cricket in mumbai so it's a very emotional time for playing on the street

with her brothers because there were no girls teams around at that point and so she yes she is symbolic of the kind of change that Indian women's cricket is going through. And that detail of her cutting her out her own face and putting it on the jersey. The pressure must really be on her now for Sunday. What do you think about Malala's prediction? Are India going to win? They are definitely favourites. I think beating Australia in the way that they did is not something that teams do very often.

They are the dominant force in women's cricket. In terms of the pressure on Jamima, yeah, I think, you know, for her it will just be kind of soaking this occasion up. But they've got a really, they've got so much depth in their team now. That's something that they've really improved on. But in terms of her stardom, you know, you see

around India how much things have changed. Their players are on billboards. There are men, boys, girls, women wearing the shirts with the women's players on the back now. So there's a huge cultural shift going on as well. And if India can get over the line and get the prize money and get the

investment, and you know, we know that it's a cricket loving nation, then it probably won't be Australia who are dominating for much longer. Fianwyn, thank you so much for joining us from Mumbai and the final is on Sunday. Now, the latest episode of

The Woman's Hour Guide to Life is out now. This week it's all about how to keep love and intimacy alive in long-term relationships. It's only available on BBC Sounds. All you need to do is search for Woman's Hour and scroll down for the Guide to Life episodes. And on Sunday's episode, we'll be talking about how to build emotional resilience

in children and young people. Now, when you're writing messages to friends and family or even emails at work, how often do you reach for the exclamation mark? Well, the answer could depend on your gender, according to a new study in the journal of experimental social psychology. The use of exclamation marks is associated more with women than men. But why? And does it help or hinder our ability to be understood?

Well, joining me to discuss this is the linguist and professor Deborah Cameron and the author and journalist Melanie McDonough. Welcome, Melanie and Debra. I'll come to you first, Melanie. Do you agree with the research? Do women use exclamation marks more than men? Yes, I think they do. And a couple of studies have shown that. There's the one this week from Cheryl Waxlack at the University of Southern California in something called the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology. And that's actually said that women use them three times more than men, which is pretty well the same as what happened. when 20 years ago the journal of computer-mediated communication,

frankly enough, all these researchers happened in terrifically obscure journals, found that women used them three quarters of the exclamation marks and electronic messages. So there's been a slight fall from three quarters to one and three

in those intervening 20 years, but it's still the case that women use them more than men. And certainly, I find that I have almost physically to stop myself, from using them. It's the way I think of trying to seem non-confrontational, of trying

to seem jokey, of trying to please a sort of non-aggression indicator on the part of the writer. And if you're not careful, you can start using them at almost every turn and I, as I see,

I have almost physically to stop myself from doing it. Why is that? Why stop yourself? Because I think there are two things. That desire to please, that desire not to seem confrontational which I think is

unnecessary because the normal means of communication should actually have a straightforward message and you shouldn't feel the need to obligate any kind of offence taking on the part of the receiver. You shouldn't be worried about whether a simple means of communication is actually going to go down badly

and secondly you're asking the exclamation mark to do quite a lot of work it's doing a heavy lifting in terms of taking the sting out of what you're saying if you're giving an order or telling people to do something it often feels very uncomfortable for women and they try and take any offence out of it by using an exclamation mark and I think that if you have to tell somebody to do something then that should be a reasonable thing to do and you should actually convey in the message

not on the punctuation that this isn't something kind of authoritarian. It is actually a simple requirement. Let's see what Deborah thinks. You're not so convinced that women use them more than men. What's going on, do you think, Deborah? Actually, I do think women use them more than men. I think most studies show that. But I do also think that it's a pity that most media coverage of this

has led on that statistic three times more often than men because there are many reasons to be skeptical about that. Melanie's right that a 20-06 study found that in a study of just 1,700 messages on message boards, but more recent work seems to suggest that the gap is narrowing. And that is actually quite common. I'm a sociolinguist, somebody who studies the relationship between language and society, and the study of language change is part of that.

And we often find that when a trend is getting started, it's young women who are the early adopters, but young men catch up given time, if it is a general trend and not just a passing fad. So this happened with uptalk, for instance. In the 1990s, people were all about, oh, uptork is this terrible, girly thing. But now it's everybody's thing. So all those explanations about how it was about girls being insecure really turn out to be wrong. I can't explain why now you hear, you know, loads of middle-aged men doing it. This particular study, they sent out talking points to the media, I think, which mostly led the coverage.

But if you go and read the whole thing, which I have, tedious though this is, you find that they didn't actually investigate anybody's use of exclamation marks. It's a study of attitudes where they ran a series of experiments. kind of getting at how people perceive exclamation points and the connection with gender. So, you know, they didn't take a sample of people's writing and count them. They asked them questions like, on a scale where one means never and seven means very frequently, how often do you think you use exclamation points? And of course, in language, it's very difficult to rely on that for two reasons.

One is that self-reports are really based on. intuitions which are quite poor. We're not very good at knowing how we use language because it's so much under the radar. But the other thing is, it's like when you fill in the form at your doctors, how many units of alcohol do you drink a week? People give the answer they think is kind of appropriate, which may not be an accurate answer. When are we supposed to? If a thing is gender stereotyped, which this has been since the beginning of the millennium, really, men will tend to underreport and women will tend to overreport because you don't want to personify if you're a man, a feminine stereotype.

When are we supposed to use them? Sorry? When are we supposed to use the exclamation mark? Well, the thing is that this is part of a kind of general shift in the way people use written English, which has happened, you know, as the digital age has transferred more and more of the functions that used to be assigned to spoken language into writing. Things have migrated online and therefore we're having to do them using the medium of written text. And written text is not very well adapted for certain things that we're doing now. Interacting, you know,

negotiating the interpersonal part of a conversation like, you know, are you angry? Are you joking? In speech, we have, you know, tone of voice and gaze and gesture to do that. in writing we don't. So what people have done is come up with a set of conventions for representing that kind of thing visually, and that means, you know, using the resources of typography like all caps for shouting or using emoji or repurposing punctuation marks and the exclamation mark is one of those. It doesn't mean that you're, you know, trying to be inoffensive exactly. It's actually come to be, I mean, traditionally, I suppose it's associated with being excited or something. surprise. But now it has come to signify really things like sincerity, authenticity,

being friendly and war. And, you know, this study found that that was how people perceive it. So it does actually have advantages if you're part of the culture that uses it in this way. For now, though, Professor Deborah Cameron. Oh, we've run up, Melanie, it's on. Go on, Melanie, go on. Give me your last point. There is actually an instance of the use rather than perceived use. of exclamation marks and that's in Jane Austen apparently there was

495s in Pride and Prejudice but the interesting thing was they weren't done by the narrator they were done by characters and it is only the characters and they use it with a direct speech to indicate how very silly they're being and most of them belong to Mrs Bennett

in Pride and Prejudice so for Jane Austroredge Melanie what a beautiful beautiful last answer from you thank you so much for that 495 exclamation marks there you go Thank you to Professor Deborah Cameron and Melanie Madonna, and someone's got in touch to say,

I remember my brother making fun of me for using exclamation marks, unnecessarily growing up. It was so annoying to be belittled for being overexpressive, exclamation mark. It's something only women understand. Keep your thoughts coming in. On to my next guest. The voice described as being able to melt icebergs at 50 paces. I'm joined in the studio by Brianna Corrigan,

who shot to fame in the early 1990s with the Brett Award-winning band, beautiful South, known for their catchy tunes and witty, socially observant lyrics. Let's have a reminder of their hugely successful single, A Little Time. Welcome to Women's So, Brianna. Thank you so much, Anita. What's it like hearing that? Just, yeah, it seems to have really connected to so many people.

You know, and I think it's so many years ago now, but one of the things in the interim, and since I've kind of like not been a music or whatever, I've met so many people who just really, really love that song and it's their breakup song and it's their song that got them through their breakup and for a few people it's their wedding song which is like, oh, it's an interesting choice, yeah.

You're like, okay, yeah. That's you singing with Dave Hemingway and you left the band, you've had several successful albums on your own and you've had 10 years away from the music industry. But you're back with new albums and on tour, so how's the tour being going? The tour's been going really, really well. We're having it. We've been to some really beautiful venues,

we've been doing quite a lot of churches, which is just really lovely. I'm working with guitarist and a cellist, and we have a lot of kind of effects, et cetera. So it works really beautifully. And of course, church is, you know, as a singer, the acoustics are so beautiful in there. So, yeah, it's been great.

And it's just such a pleasure to come and play in front of people. And there's something about what happens in a room, when music is. happening live that you just you just can't recreate and when I came out this time I thought well you know if I don't like this I just won't I won't do it again but honestly it's so enlivening to be in the room and to feel whatever's happening in there you know that that that beautiful connection between an audience and and live music why now why did you decide after 10 years well my kids left so yeah I find I kind of backed off a lot really when I had

my kids and I just felt like I couldn't apply the focus really and I think it takes an awful lot of focus to kind of be in music and um so I did lots of other things um but I I really just wanted to to kind of focus on the kids and they're not really with you for that long so um so yeah they're headed off the university and I had been doing quite a lot of kind of music projects and stuff and I just was like yeah you know what I'd really love I'd love to go out and see what touring is like as an older woman and with all of the experience behind me that you know my life has given me and what will this be like and and i you know i i honestly can say it is just really joyous well we started with you know the that number one single with

the beautiful south and you were very much in a boy's world back then i just wonder what it was like touring at that point in your life well i mean it was it was lots of fun but it was you know chaotic to a large extent, quite often, quite chaotic. Just in terms of being young, music was very different in those days. And what I really love about coming back now is just that I, you know, I care a lot, but I also don't really care at all. So I feel like I just, it's much easier just to be yourself. And it's much easier to be in it and know why you're in it.

and the clarity is great for me. You're going to sing live for us now. Yes. Sweet songbird. What's it about? This was inspired by my daughter. She was doing her A-levels during COVID. And of course, like all of her generation,

you know, they were locked in rooms at a time when they should have been out in the world, you know. And after COVID, I noticed a real kind of shift in her and a lot of her girlfriends, and particularly her girlfriends, where there was a sense that, a sense of a lack of faith in life, I think.

And I wanted to write something that kind of just said to her, you know, we will get curveballs. Life is curveballs. But you have everything you need to write it. And you need to keep trying. And where you're showing hate, you just show love back. So that was my kind of overall feeling was just to say, listen

you get one life what a gift what a lovely gift from a mother to a daughter and also how beautifully poignant that you're singing this and on the day

we also have Malala I know I was well yeah I was really kind of feeling that earlier on so strong parallel yeah would you mind

thank you so much please tell us who the tell me about your wonderful musicians my wonderful musicians they couldn't make it no this is Colin McLean

and Ingus McCauley On guitar and cellar. Wonderful. Thank you. How exciting. Brianna Colm and Angus are going to be singing for us right now. This is sweet songbird.

Brianna Corrigan, thank you so much. Brought a tear to my eye. Thank you. Absolutely magnificent. Please release more music. Give us all the albums. Are they coming soon? Yeah.

Next year, next May, or next spring, yeah. We've got a brand new album coming out. We can't wait. Touring to support that. Wonderful. Come back. Honestly, that was so special. Angerson, Colm, thank you as well.

I'm going to end the program on a few of your lovely messages coming through about your dreams. As a little girl, I dreamt of travelling, never believing that I would. I became a teacher, a head teacher, a school advisor. Then in 2002, I went to work for the British Council. I've enjoyed all of my roles, but the British Council work has fulfilled my dreams as I've worked in over 50 countries with some amazing people. Someone else saying, when I was six, I was six, I wrote in a school assignment that I wanted to be an ice hockey player. When I grew up, I was an asthmatic kid, not very athletic,

but I learned to play three years ago at 30 and won a championship this summer. That's it from us. But before we go, I just want to share with you all that today is the last day of our studio manager. His name is Bob Nettles, and he's retiring from the BBC after 46 years. He is a legend, and he is loved. and it is such an honour, Bob, that you chose Women's Hour to be your last live broadcast and I just want to say on behalf of everyone you've worked with

here at the BBC for the last 46 years, thank you so much and best of luck with everything you go on to. Enjoy retirement, you will be missed and you are loved. And that's it from me. Do join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour where we'll have singer, actor and performer Petula Clark. That's all for today. Today's Woman's Hour, join us again next time.

The figure's face was featureless and its entire body was jet black. I'm Danny Robbins and throughout October I will be sharing uncanny listeners real-life ghost stories. That's one every single day as we count down to the spookiest time of the year. Suddenly, all hell lets loose.

The sound of glass smashing, heavy objects being thrown, doors being ripped off hinges. It was coming. from the cellar. I looked up and was staggered to see a humongous black triangle floating silently over the rooftop.

Join me as uncanny countdown to Halloween every day in October on BBC Sounds. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relations. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate.

I think I cried almost every day. I just stole myself on the floor. He's coming on really straight. It's like he's trying to date you all of the sudden. Yeah, and I do look like my mother. Love Me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts.