Woman's Hour - Malala Yousafzai, Festival headliners, Discussing whether or not you want children with a partner, Comedian Jayde Adams

Episode Date: March 6, 2023

Malala Yousafzai is a Pakistani education activist and the world’s youngest Nobel Prize laureate. Malala was just 15 when, on the way home from school, a member of the Taliban boarded her bus, asked for her by name, and shot her in the head. In the decade since, Malala has continued to fight for the educational rights of girls and women across the globe through her charity, the Malala Fund. Now she’s turned her attention to Hollywood, most recently as Executive Producer of the short documentary film Stranger At The Gate – which has been nominated for the Oscar for Best Documentary Short Film.The line-ups for this summer’s festivals are being announced – and there’s a noticeable absence of headlining women. Glastonbury has three men headlining, as does Latitude Festival. Why is there such an imbalance when it comes to female artists and big gigs? What needs to be done to change it? CEO and owner of Green Man Festival Fiona Stewart joins Nuala alongside creator of the F-list directory of female musicians, Vick Bain.When should you bring up the topic of whether or not you want children with a partner? If you have different opinions, do you walk away from an otherwise happy relationship? Nuala is joined by Relationship Counsellor Val Sampson and listener Sarah to discuss the healthiest way to go about it.The Bristolian comic and star of last year’s Strictly Come Dancing, Jayde Adams has written a brand new show ‘Men, I Can Save You,’ to explore her relationships with men and learn from how she has been treated in the past. She talks to Woman’s Hour about how she wants to guide men to salvation with humour.Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, good morning. I hope your Monday is going well. Well, this morning on Woman's Hour we have Malala, activist, Nobel Peace Prize winner and now executive producer. Malala Yousafzai is working to tell stories to promote understanding and compassion and one of those stories is a documentary called Stranger at the Gate.

It's about an ex-marine who planned to bomb a mosque but instead was transformed when met with kindness. You will also hear Malala's advice on deciphering disinformation on social media. We also have Jade Adams today, the comedian, dancer, actor, singer. She's starting a new tour called Men, I Can Save You.

So we'll talk about her saviour complex, dressing in all white, and also how she plans to shine a light on South Bristol with a new TV show. And we will turn from comedy to music festivals as well. Why are so few women headlining this year's events? Now Glastonbury, you might have seen, they released their line-up with no women at the top of the bill. Some say it's a pipeline problem. Is that a valid reason or just an excuse for not trying harder?

We'll discuss all that. And I need your thoughts on this. Do you remember having a specific conversation about having kids with your partner? Was it something dropped in early on or more of a continuous discussion over the years, perhaps? Or maybe you're at that point right now, or maybe you're thinking about raising it or hoping he or she doesn't. Well, we want to hear your stories. If you have found or find yourself in a different place to your partner about having kids. We have a woman we're calling Sarah joining us who is in that spot and also a relationship counsellor to help us pick our way through what can be an emotional minefield.

So to get in touch, get those stories into me or questions. The number is 84844. Text charge at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website or indeed with your voice a WhatsApp message or voice note. That number is

03700100444. Really looking forward to hearing your thoughts on that one on this Monday morning. But let us begin with the world famous activist and youngest ever Nobel Peace Prize winner. Of course, I'm talking about Malala Yousafzai. She's somebody that we've watched grow up, right? She was just 12 when she began speaking out against the Taliban's ban on girls' education in her home country of Pakistan. At 15, on her way home from school, a member of the Taliban boarded her bus, asked for her by name and shot her in the head. But that was just the start of her extraordinary life story. Malala has continued to fight for the educational rights of girls and also women all across the globe

and received that Nobel Peace Prize, as I mentioned, for her activism at just 17. And now she's 25 and she's taking on Hollywood. Most recently as the executive producer of the short documentary film Stranger at the Gate. It has been nominated for an Oscar for Best Documentary Short. And the film tells the story of Richard Mack McKinney. He was a US Marine veteran. He planned an Islamophobic

terror attack on a mosque in Indiana, only to be won over while visiting that mosque by its congregants. In particular, one, Bibi Bahrami, who befriended him. Bibi was interviewed on Radio 4's Sunday programme yesterday. You can catch up on that interview on the BBC Sounds app.

But first, here is Malala. And I started by asking her why she chose to turn her attention to Hollywood. Hollywood is a place for storytelling. And I believe that everybody deserves a chance to make it there and to tell stories from their point of view. I am really excited that I am a 25-year-old Pakistani Muslim young woman who made it to this place because we know that, you know, we need to make sure that it is open to people from all backgrounds. And we are seeing more representation of South Asian people, but there's a lot more work that needs to be done. When we

look at television, when we look at movies, we often realize that, you know, it's missing the perspective of so many people. And when you look at the representation of Muslims, especially, they make up 25% of the population, but only 1 percent of them make it to the to the movies, to the screen. So we want to be given the opportunity where we can show things from our point of view. I'm really excited to be working now and to be part of some incredible documentaries and movies as well. Well, I want let's get into one of these documentaries because you're joining us because of Stranger at the Gate. This is a film that you're supporting, really been an ambassador for as executive producer. This is an extraordinary story. I watched it and was gobsmacked at times. What did you think when you first watched it? I remember watching it for the first time. I was in my living room and I watched it on my laptop together with my husband.

I had never heard the story before, so I did not know what to anticipate. And I was just completely shocked by the end of it. What a powerful story it was. How the life of a person can change by human sympathy and compassion and kindness. I personally believe in those values. And it is quite difficult to preach about them without being able to show it to people how life changing these could be. But in this short film, we can see that happening. We can see how this kind Muslim family opened their hearts and their doors to this stranger who is secretly planning to kill all of them. And it's their kindness and compassion that really changes the life of this person, Mac, who later on, you know, changes his mind

and he wants to spread the message of love to others. There are so many strands through it and so many strong characters as well. I was struck, you know, you said about the film that the stories can teach us about ourselves, that you experienced that when you were watching the film. But I would have thought that this ex-Marine, possibly suffering with PTSD, but definitely that had murder on his mind, would seem so different to your story.

I think there's a lot in common between these stories. It is the dehumanization of another individual or another group of people. The person who wanted to attack me was told that I was not, you know, I was this alien person who did not belong to the community, who did not belong to the faith. And if you make somebody an outsider, then it's easier to convince somebody to harm them. And this is something that needs to be challenged. And we can challenge that through storytelling, because stories connect you with people from different corners of the world. It shows you that they're humans too.

They have the same emotions, feelings. they have families, they have meals together, they have sad moments, they have happy moments. And it is through the power of stories that, you know, I personally was able to learn more about the world. I come from the north of Pakistan, and I had never traveled before. And it was, you know, with the help of the documentaries, or the TV shows, or the movies that i would watch that i was learning about the world out there that there are people who go through the similar some similar things as us you know they are having uh you know they're worried about families they're trying to find a job they are trying to make friends and and they have those ups and downs

as well and that's the power of of these stories that they connect to. I understand. I will ask you, I know Titanic is 25 years old at this stage. I know it was a favorite of yours when you were in the Swat Valley. And now you're on your way to the Oscars with this film, which we'll come back to in a moment. But I want to think a little bit more about this particular story and also trying to understand those views that are different perhaps from our own. There is one character, she's really striking. Her name is Bibi Ba Rami, some calling her the Mother Teresa of this mosque in Indiana that Mack was targeting. She's an Afghan refugee. And when she finds out what his intentions were to bomb her place of worship, she invites him to dinner.

You've met her. What is she like in the flesh? She has changed the lives of so many people. It's not just Mac, that one person, but she told us stories about other people that she has welcomed, people who just thought that she did not belong in the country or they disagreed with her faith. She said, you know, let did not belong in the country or they disagreed with her faith. She said, you know, let's let's have a meal and let's talk. And that is really breaking bread with people. But it is astonishing her capacity for forgiveness, I thought, looking

at her and also for Max's potential for redemption. I did read previously that you said you would forgive the man who shot you if you met him. Again, extraordinary. What gives you that ability to forgive? I believe that, you know, like what would happen if I don't forgive that person? Like literally nothing would happen. So my personal view is that forgiveness and compassion is really important to break the cycle of hatred. I believe that the best way to take revenge against extremism and violence is to spread love and to help people who need help.

And for me to fight against what happened to me was to work for other girls to have access to education. That was the best way in which I could fight back what happened to me. They wanted to stop one girl from having access to education. Today, I want to advocate for 130 million girls to have access to education. And, you know, when I achieve that goal, I would feel like I have lived a fulfilled life. But we live in a time where there's a lot of divisiveness, you know, whether it's online or in person with politics and culture wars, as they say. Do you think people need to be more open to not cutting people off? I can say about my personal approach to this, because when I come across an opinion that I may not agree with, or even very subtle, you know, acts of aggressions or inappropriate comments,

I always give the person benefit of the doubt. And I try to explain things to people that, you know, if you think about it from this point of view, or, you know, where I come from, I see it this way. I, you know, I, I always think that, you know, maybe the person has not thought about it, or maybe they need somebody to tell them, maybe nobody has told them yet. And there's something for me to learn as well, why somebody is thinking a certain way, is it because they're limited in their exposure to different opinions. And it's really making an effort and connecting with them. I think once somebody connects with you, it changes their perspective as well. Because, like, for example, like I'm a Muslim, I wear a headscarf.

I am from Pakistan. I'm a Pashtun. And then if whoever has, you know, certain point like, you know, stereotypes in their mind about these sort of people, when they interact with me, they should, you know, in their mind, they should also be picturing me as well, as a person, as a representation of them, right? And we know that if you look at a religion and ethnicity, or specific community, you know, people are complex and yet simple as well at the same time. We have, you know, we have people coming from all different backgrounds and paths and stories. So it's really important that we do not just see it as black and white and like label people and, you know, believe in those stereotypes about people. I love what you're saying, Malala, and your composure is legendary. But don't you ever get frustrated, like feel like you're banging your head against a wall sometimes trying to, I don't know, reconcile or find those connections perhaps at times?

When you become an activist, you get used to it. Okay. And you are an activist and also doing that, of course, through film at the moment. I'd be curious also for your thoughts, because with this documentary, we know that Mac had extremist views, but social media is such an interesting one. I was thinking of you and for young people, there can be downsides that we hear about, particularly in relation to mental health or maybe radicalization. But it is also where young people organize, you know, in their tens of thousands or millions, I should probably say. Do you think about it as a force for good or bad? I think this is a topic that can take us some time to go in depth, but I would say that social media is a tool. And of course, those who are running it need to be more responsible in what they allow on social media

and how they set the algorithms. And just be mindful that every decision they make would have consequences. And they need to act with more responsibility, but also people who are using social media can be more responsible and ensure that they are not spreading any misinformation, disinformation, false news, just double checking everything. We live in such a sense of urgency every day about everything that we want people to just say everything that we want them to say. And it's really important that we do not say things in a rush. When we get exposed to a piece of information, we have to question its credibility. Where does it come from? When and who wrote it? But also the plausibility is there more detail to it? So it can be like a really

tiring and exhausting platform as well. But on the other hand, I know that, you know, of course, there are like fun, there's a fun side to it as well. Everybody loves memes, everybody enjoys those funny tweets. So I do use social media, you know, Instagram, Twitter, all of that. So I would say that just be a bit more patient when using it. I did read that you put your phone away, however, when you do deep work, when you're preparing for something. How do you do that? Where does that self-discipline come from? Um, I would not say that I'm a very like self disciplined person. But when when I have to do work, then the work is, you know, important. I have no choice. That's what I would say. But I am I just love like scrolling through reels and TikTok videos. So that could be fun. And it really helps me like, in escaping from a lot of, you know, my work. But other than that, when it's time to do my work, then phone is put aside.

Where is it put? In the drawer? Do you leave it at the door? Turn it off? It could be just on the table, but I won't look at it. You have such discipline. That's wonderful. You know, I was loving your Twitter. What should we call it? Spat is too strong. Banter with your husband. You're not picking up his socks. This is what I've read.

You were tweeting that any dirty socks that were left on the floor, they go straight in the bin. And then I was wondering, is that the secret to having a career in film along with, of course, so much of your activism? Do not get caught up in your husband's chores. The sock life story is funny because I think it was sort of my misunderstanding.

He said the socks were dirty. I was like, sure, you know, dirty. Where do dirty things go? In the bin. So, but no, I think I am just lucky to have such an amazing husband, husband partner friend in my life and he's somebody who it's like I'm always impressed by him he amazes me with his kindness and support that he gives me and he's like he's like really proud I would say like if somebody is trying to define what a feminist husband would look like, I could see that in him.

Yeah, he does a lot for me. I'm always so happy for that. So that's some of the downtime looking on the phone, whether it's Reels or Instagram or whatever. What do you watch now that you're in the world of film? I mean, is there I mentioned Titanic. I know that was a big favorite 25 years ago. And I love the thought of little Malala, you know, watching it on a computer in the Swat Valley. But now. So now, like I watched everything everywhere all at once recently. I loved it. I enjoyed it so much. And I was so lucky that I had the opportunity to meet the stars in person and also moderate a Q&A at one of their screenings. All the nominees, Oscar nominees, were on the stage.

The producer, the directors, and Michelle Yeoh, and Kihei Kwan, and Stephanie, and Jamie Lee. So it was just amazing to see all of them. I'm sure they were delighted they had you as the moderator as well. When you go to the Oscars, so there's quite a few you bumped into moderating. Is there anybody else you're hoping to bump into on that day? Well, I already bumped into Tom Cruise and Austin Butler. And I heard his deep voice. His Elvis voice.

Yeah, that is, I can confirm he has that Elvis voice in real life. So no acting there. And I am excited to see everybody. I mean, Rihanna is going to be performing at the Oscars. There's going to be so many other incredible people. Just to be in that room surrounded by these creative, talented people would be a huge opportunity. Did you watch the latest Top Gun and Elvis? Yes, yes, I have seen all the movies. I am just up to date on

everything. This is part of the work, you know, when you get into Hollywood. May I ask you also something else about the Oscars? Have you decided what you're going to wear? Well, that is a tough question because we have been working on it for weeks now. We have so many sketches and I think I know which one I like the most. So I will show it to you all on the day. So, you know, we talked about Schoolgirl and the Swat Valley in Pakistan, two executive producer in Hollywood with the Nobel Peace Prize just in between that picked up. What's going to be next? I mean, I would think maybe running for office, political office. Is that something you think about? Oh, I still have time for that oh you do

definitely I wonder would it be if you're thinking about it in Pakistan or in the UK um definitely not the UK I think the UK uh is you know I I would say that you know I'm not actually thinking about like political office but if I do then then I would definitely want to play a role in Pakistan. But right now, my focus is movies and just doing the work for girls education. I believe that we need to empower other young women and girls to have the opportunity to become activists and to become storytellers. You know, oftentimes all of these people have the talent, they have the skills, but all they need is a platform. All they need is an opportunity to do that. So I want to play that role to help everybody else.

You know, just as I was fortunate enough to have my story and to share it with the world, there are so many other girls whose stories we need to hear. Malala Yousafzai there. And you can watch that documentary film for free, which she executive produced. It's called Stranger at the Gate. It's now on YouTube and the Oscars are on March 12th. Now, let's turn to music.

Are you going to a festival this year? Who is headlining? Have a listen to this. This is the line-up for this year's Glastonbury Festival. Oh, sweet time of mine I bet that you look good on the dance floor I don't know if you're looking for romance Or I don't know what you're looking for Kids are rockin' round the clock People hoppin' and boppin' to the crocodile rock

Well, rockin' and rockin' The songs are shocking when your feet just can't keep still I never knew me about time Okay, Guns N' Roses, Arctic Monkeys, Sir Alton John, you're here. They're the headliners. What a line-up. But for the astute among you, you might notice all those acts are male.

The festival has come under scrutiny for their announced line-up so far, which is 52% male. Last year, just 13% of festival headliners at the top 50 festivals in the UK were female. Full line-ups for this year, they're not out yet, so we can't see whether it is better or worse.

But the organiser of Glastonbury, Emily Evers, she has said that they tried to book a female artist, but they pulled out. Well, we try our best with gender equality and we obviously aim for 50-50. Some years it's more, some years it's less. I mean, next year it's looking like we've got two female headliners.

This year we did have one and she unfortunately had to pull out. So, you know, that changes all the time, you know. And it's not just Glastonbury, the Wireless Festival as well as End of the Road, All Points East. This year has all-male headliners as does Latitude, Reading and Leeds. They have one female artist out of the three headliners

that's for Leeds. This morning we're hearing about plans, you might have seen this, Lviv Aid. So this is like a live aid-insp inspired concert, but it's happening in June this year in Wembley to raise money for those impacted by the war in Ukraine. And so far, the acts officially involved are U2, Pink and the Rolling Stones.

Let's talk about this. Fiona Stewart is CEO and owner of the annual Green Man Festival. Vic Bain, founder of the F List directory of female musicians and also a PhD researcher at Queen Mary University. So I'm looking at women's careers in the music industry. Let me start with you, Fiona, first, your reaction to the lineup in Glastonbury?

I mean, I do see Emily's challenges. It is very difficult to book female headliners at the moment. And I agree with her. it is a pipeline problem. We all seek to book female headliners, but it is challenging. You know, it's changing. And I think all of the lineups need to be seen as a whole and seen how many are being brought in lower down the bill. And I think that's very positive with Glastonbury. So I think, you know, you need to look at it like that. It's not always available.

The same issues are at boardroom level or other levels of senior people throughout the UK. You know, anything that's up to that level is very much established. It's very male dominated. So there's a couple of things there I just want to pick up on. What do you mean for our listener, or perhaps even how you understand what Emily means by a pipeline problem? I think that there are less established headliners of a certain level, just from a historical point of view, who have gone into the sort of the legacy of music over the last 20, 30 years.

And that is that's been that's been an issue. And we're seeing that. So for anyone, there's a certain stage of an artist that you need at a headline level who's going to attract the tickets or the publicity or the impact of that kind of act. And it's not someone, it's not anyone you can put in that position. And it is going to take time for artists to reach that point. And it is, you know, it is an issue. Let me throw it over to Vic, because I was also struck, Fiona, that you talked about taking the event as a whole, that there may be women lower down the bill. But is that good enough, Vic? Well, not really. I mean, there's definitely

a talent pool issue. I did research in 2019 that proved that only 20% of signed artists to record labels are women. So the pool of talent for those bigger festivals is definitely smaller than the male talent that's being invested in by the music industry. But I do think festivals such as Glastonbury almost have a moral responsibility to book more women at that level. Well, what about that?

I'd throw back to you, Fiona, a moral responsibility for a place like Glastonbury. I'm sure, you know, Emily's done an awful lot to support diversity, and I'm sure she'll have tried her best. But the reality is that we can't always, it's not possible to always book who you want or who's available, who's touring in any year.

It's, you know, it's not up to us. It's who's available and what the competition is. If people are able to come to the UK, obviously since Brexit, touring is much more of an issue now. You know, I think the big thing about this, there is an eagerness within the music industry to book female artists. That is not an issue. If you look at the wider issues to do with any multi-arts event such as Glastonbury,

there'll be many women represented in the arts across that event. There has to be a situation where, you know, I mean, Glastonbury is a commercial organisation. It isn't public funded. It has to pursue something to do with tickets and the other pressures it's got. But I do feel that the feeling within Glastonbury and what Emily has said in the past

is the fact that there's a real concern within not just Emily, within the music industry to try and address this and try and turn it round. So, for example, with Glastonbury, we see Lizzo is on the bill but lower down and you mentioned taking it the event as a whole

but, you know, why couldn't she have headlined? Emily has said she could well have headlined, but the spot was promised to somebody else. And obviously we don't know the machinations that go on politically behind the scenes, but would that not have been an obvious choice for a headliner? Yes, I take that,

but you don't know what the commercial situation is as well. So explain that to me, because it sounds like the commercial situation might get in the way. What are they looking at? Well, when you book an artist, you're booking at a certain level on the bill. You know, you're paying a certain fee,

you're doing things for a certain fee. If you book people higher up on the bill, it's not the same amount. I mean, I have no idea what the deal that's going on there. So I can't say why this happened or not. But it is once something, it sounds like there was a withdrawal very, very late in the day. People are booked at certain levels on the bill for a certain situation. There's other issues to do with commercial um pressures which are which are on there it's it's a it's there's lots of issues to do with booking which um you know which which is something that only glastonbury would know about but i think from what their explanation is that someone has left right at the end everything's set up and these things happen you know these things do happen they they you know think can't, sometimes they can't tour. There's various issues that happen.

And it's out of your control. I mean, ultimately, as I said, we do need to look at these festivals as the whole of the bill. Yeah. Looking down the line and seeing what's going on. I could understand if lower on the bill it was all men as well, but I'm not seeing that. Yeah, but I suppose that would have caused more upset if it were that way. But let me turn back to you, Vic. One, do you feel that the eagerness is there,

as Fiona described, to have women in those positions higher up, but other things can get in the way, the pipeline problem being one, as we hear. Should there be an obligatory quota, for example, when it comes to headliners? Vic? Well, no, I don't think it should be obligatory, but it should definitely be voluntary. And it should, you know, there should definitely be more of an effort made.

You gave a long list at the start there of all of the festivals who've got total male headliners for every night that the festivals are on. And quite frankly, it's just not good enough. I mean, if there was a female headliner already booked for this year's Glastonbury and she had to pull out, I mean, why is Lizzo not doing that spot spot she has 13.3 million followers on Instagram I mean she's top of her game she really deserves a chance to headline you know I think it gets to a point where well it reminds me of in 2015 when the Foo Fighters couldn't headline one of the nights at Glastonbury because Dave Grohl, I think the week before, he broke his leg.

So Florence and the Machine was elevated to headline that year. And she was incredible. Even Dave Grohl said he was crying watching her performance. She wouldn't have had that opportunity if the Foo Fighters had had to pull out. So, you know, we need to give the women more of a chance, take more creative risks. Glastonbury sells out before it announces its lineup. So it's not so bound to commercial decisions like that. That is an interesting point, actually. And I'm remembering Beyonce was Glastonbury in 2011. There was so much hoo-ha about that because she was more a pop act than a rock act, for example,

which traditionally had been headlining. You mentioned Florence and the Machine in 2015. So people might be wondering, are we going, for example, more, maybe a couple of steps back when it comes to having women in those particular roles. I mean, do you think, Vic, that our promoters prepare to take a chance on a woman or is it different, for example, what they have to have done previously before they can get on the main stage? Is it different to a man, a male performer in that way?

Well, it definitely seems to be. And in my PhD research, I'm talking to dozens of women in music in both business and creative roles. And I'm often told by women that they are told they can't get booked to play a particular festival or a particular event because they've already got a woman on the lineup. So that slot is taken, the woman slot is taken. The woman slot, you know, is if women are a genre of music. So, you know, I mean, it's not to say that, you know, I think Emily Evers has done a fantastic job over the past six or seven years in equalising her stages. But that headline slot is just so important to act as a leader in the music industry, to act as a role model for other female musicians.

And before I let either of you go, is there anywhere that you're looking at that you feel is doing a great job when it comes to that parity i'll begin with you vick and then go to fiona well through the f list we're working with um many smaller size festivals i really want to give a shout out to a festival in yorkshire called under the stars last summer they had three female headliners they've got they've got one female headliner this year and a male-female duo on their headline slots. So, yeah, big shout out to festivals like Under the Stars. OK, and what about you, Fiona? I think all of the festivals are trying to have a real go at it. And I think that spirit of, I mean, I don't know where this thing is,

tokenism having a female act thing. I mean, I've never heard that before ever. But, you know, I think that certainly from the Green Man's point of view, we had 50-50 nearly last year and we're still going for it. And I think that I see it in other festivals as well. There's a massive positivity of trying to bring women into music. And I think as well, there are other issues to do with this. There is, I mean, we run the Green Man Rising competition

last 15 years and only 23% of people who enter that competition are women. So, you know, there is other issues apart from this that need to be addressed. So I think what I'm hearing is even before we get close to a festival stage, there are other issues that need to be addressed. I think you both agree on that. Thank you both so much for joining us. And that was Vic Bain, founder of the F List Directory of Female Musicians also a PhD researcher at Queen Mary University and Fiona Stewart

the CEO and owner of the annual Green Man Festival thanks to you both you're listening to Woman's Hour later this week we want to discuss

teen speak that is the language and words that your teenage children use and which leaves you baffled and scrambling to keep up now whether it's

those terms that you've never heard before and that you just don't understand or maybe those words and which leaves you baffled and scrambling to keep up. Now, whether it's those terms that you've never heard before and that you just don't understand, or maybe those words and phrases that you think you understand until you realise actually you don't. They're being used in a completely different way. Cheddar, Gucci, thirsty. How do you keep up? We want some examples of what teen speak baffles you. We'd like you to send us some voice notes of what your teenager says. You may want to decode it along the way, but do please ask their permission first. OK, WhatsApp message or voice note,

that number is 03700 100 444 or text, that's Women's Hour 84844 or on social media, it's at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website. And don't forget you can listen to our programmes any time of the day. It's the BBC Sounds app where you can get that. Just some messages coming in on

women in music. It would help women's cause if more were aimed to be musicians, not just singers. It takes effort. In my 50 years at the lower levels of pop music, too few women want to put that effort in, says John in Nottingham. Does anybody want to respond to John? 84844.

Now, we like to discuss on this programme subjects that can be difficult, right? That people might struggle to chat about with friends, family or even their partners. Situations that many people will be trying to deal with but as

a society we don't openly talk about and I think this next discussion is one of those. Lots of people question whether or not they want to have children and a listener we're calling Sarah is here to talk about what it's like to be in a marriage when you and your partner have different opinions on having kids. I'm also joined by Val Sampson. She is a relationship counsellor. You're both very welcome to Woman's Hour. I might just start with you, Val. When should the conversation of whether or not to have kids be brought up in a relationship? Good morning, Nuala. I don't think it's just one conversation. I think it's a lot of conversations, actually. As your relationship evolves, your views on having children evolve. And I don't think a sort of quick, shall we have them?

Yes. And that's it is enough, really. And I think as we'll probably hear from my fellow guest, it can be problematic. But it's really important to have the conversation and to continue to have the conversation and to do it pretty early on. Early on what? Are we talking about, I don't know, fifth date?

Are we talking about six months in? Are we talking about when there's serious commitment being talked about? I think probably, certainly when there's serious commitment being talked about? I think probably, certainly when there's serious commitment being talked about, because you're thinking about what your life is going to look like if you meet somebody and you think, I'd like to be with them for a long time. So certainly by then, I think probably first date's a bit early, but you can certainly bring the conversation up.

And as I say, it's a series of conversations as the relationship develops. Well, let's meet Sarah, not her real name, as I'll mention. Sarah, you met your husband just after university, I understand, and married five years ago in your 20s. Were you having that conversation about having kids throughout that process? And welcome. Hi, thanks. Yeah, we absolutely were. were you having that conversation about having kids throughout that process and welcome hi thanks um yeah we absolutely were we were talking about kids early but we were young and it seemed like a long way off and while i think i'd always grown up with the idea that i would

have kids and i had these pictures of i guess you know rosy-cheeked kids running in and out of a kitchen and me with a flowery apron um that was probably the picture I had in my head when we were thinking about having kids early. And as time's gone on, I'm now in my early 30s, the reality that I'm seeing of parenting seems a lot less appealing. So I think although we had those conversations early, we perhaps didn't know exactly what it might be like. And we're finding that out more and more as time goes on. And that's changing the conversations that we continue to have. Are you in different places? Yeah. And I think maybe this is a little unusual in that I am increasingly feeling that I don't

want kids. And my husband had always assumed he would. And I think although he's open to the possibility of not having them, the big question is whether he will get to a point where he decides that actually he needs to have kids in his life. We have an extremely happy marriage. We are deeply in love. We want to be together forever. I think the only thing that would ensure that didn't happen would be if he decides he can't live without kids and I decide I can't have them. Oh gosh and there's Val there can't be any compromise in this decision either right? Well I think there are a lot of different ways to be a parent and there's a lot of different ways to have a good relationship with the generation coming up behind you without being a parent. So when you're in a situation like this, where there's a conflict,

and by conflict, I don't mean people, you know, screaming at each other or throwing china, just one person thinks one thing and someone thinks something else. The way that I normally work with clients is we look at the feelings first. So we acknowledge and explore the feelings or the beliefs that you have, which kind of prevent you getting to a problem solving situation. So it may be, for example, sometimes I work with people, and they've had a very unhappy childhood. And one of the things they might say is, the last thing I'd want to do is to inflict that on someone else, I need to have my own family. So, you know, A, we have to acknowledge that. And then we think about, well, if you were to have a family, what would you do differently? You know, sometimes someone might, a client might say,

I don't want to turn out like my mother. She was so resentful. And then we'd say, well, what was going on in your mother's life that meant that she felt unsupported, that might have felt, you know, made her resentful. So it's not a process of trying to persuade a client one way or the other. But what we're looking to do is get as much information as we can so that when you do make a decision, you feel that you've made the best choice you can with all the information available and then you feel ready to embrace the path that you choose. Sarah, is it a fraught decision making? I mean, mean, is this, does it put you in turmoil? Or is it more straightforward? This is clear, we'll work it out as a couple?

No, I think it is fraught. Although we I think we argue well, I do think it's fraught because it's such a big decision. It's such a decision that is such an irreversible decision. And although I think you can apply cool logic to many decisions in life and you can put a pros and cons list, it seems to me that large parts of the advantages of having kids that the parents talk about are intangible. So it's really hard to picture life with kids and life without kids and to weigh those things up in any logical way. So I think you can't help but have your emotions be involved in that. And that can make it fraught. However, however much we're trying to make the decision together, it's still tricky. Yes. And of course, this is planning to be able to have kids and have them or not have them, because there will be, Val, you know, couples, of course, that might want to have kids,

can't have them. And that's a whole different dynamic within the relationship, trying to work through that life without kids. Well, I think, you know, what we're talking about is loss. And actually, whether it's a choice, you know, you're able to have children, but you choose to have a life without them or you're not able to have children and you would like them in your life. It's actually coming to terms with that loss and how that impacts on you

and how that impacts on the relationship. And then working out what you might be able to do going forward to compensate in some way for that loss. But you do have to acknowledge it first. And perhaps a loss for some and maybe not for others. So many people getting in touch with this. 84844, let me see. I went out with a woman.

This is a guy getting in touch. Anthony, hi, Anthony. I went out with a woman with an agenda. First thing she said on the first date was, I'm wanting kids more or less immediately. And if you're not there, there is no point in further dates. There was only one date. Pauline got in touch, says,

I didn't think about having a baby until married for nearly 10 years. And then only after my husband told me he was feeling broody. What a gift our son is. I'm glad that worked out for you, Pauline. Let me see another. I discussed wanting children early on

in any relationship. I didn't want them. It finished some, but I can't understand why people don't broach it early on. It's fundamental and not open to compromise. I'm now 70, married

and happily child free. I'm wondering, Sarah, what do you think when you hear some of those stories? Yeah, it's really interesting. And I think I'm very aware that my viewpoint and my situation is a little unusual.

Firstly, just assuming that we do have the choice. We don't know, but if we're assuming that we're able to have kids I appreciate we're in a very privileged position but also I'm aware I have many female friends whose relationships have ended because they wanted kids and their partners didn't so I know it's a little unusual our situation and lots of people will be probably feeling a bit maybe even jealous I don't know so I do appreciate that um I I think those conversations having them early that makes perfect sense to me. And as I say, my husband and I did, but I do think it's very difficult to imagine your life, especially, I mean, we met when we were 21, my husband and I, it's really hard to imagine what it will actually

be like in, let's say, 10 years time and how you'll both feel. So with the best will in the world, it's a tricky thing to talk about early in a relationship. Here's one that came in. I'm a 22-year-old recent graduate and I see among my cohort, the men are much more broody and open to having children than the women. I see them having a more idealised, relaxed view of having children, talking about how fun and cute it will be. I think women have a more realistic view of the impact that having children will have on their lives. Let me turn back to you Val and of course that's talking about male and female but there'll be lots of same-sex couples that are having this exact same conversation just depending on what that view of the reality of raising children is actually like. What advice would you give to couples Val that have a completely different

opinion on what the reality will be like? Well I think first of all it's not a disaster because it means you're both bringing something different to the conversation so you're going to cover a lot of bases. As you can probably imagine I would say if it's something you feel you can't resolve happily yourself, talk to a counsellor, get some support with the conversation. And one of the things, you know, that I talk to my clients about is what they think the purpose of having children is. And for some, it is that rosy picture. For other people, it's someone to look after you when you're old. Now, those two things aren't, somebody said that to me just last week. even that aware of. So examples, sometimes I might work with someone from a big family where all of the siblings have had children. And there's a sense of, well, if I don't have children, am I somehow letting my siblings down? Am I not really a member of this family?

Or am I going to disappoint my parents if I don't have grandparents, grandchildren rather. So there's a lot to take on board and it's worth putting time and investing time and energy in really thinking it through. That the downside of not thinking it through is when I see couples down the line who haven't had these conversations and whose relationships have really suffered as a result. Yes. And I think it's probably a taboo about talking about whether you've regretted having children I know people open up to me about an awful lot of things but that one not as much and with same-sex couples Eval for example it's the same issues that arise is it? It can be sometimes with same when I work with same-sex couples, it's sometimes around timing, but then actually, I mean, that's also the same with other couples as well. I think what we underestimate actually is the

impact of our own family experience on how we feel about children and how we feel about being a parent. Sometimes we think, you know, I'd love to reproduce a family like mine. Sometimes we think, gosh, the last thing I'd want to do is to make that mistake. So actually being able to explore our own experience of being a child, because having a child does remind you very much of your own childhood. If that's positive, it's great. If it wasn't so positive, that's not such a good experience and you can get help to manage that. But understanding the kind of beliefs and experiences you're bringing with you into the discussion really helps get you some clarity.

Val Sampson, Relationship Councillor, thanks so much. Sarah, we wish you the best on whatever path your future holds. Thanks so much for speaking to us so candidly this morning. Right, I want to move on to the Bristolian comic, actor, singer, writer, star of last year's Strictly Come Dancing. It's Jade Adams with us. She has written a brand new show, Men, I Can Save You.

And it's exploring previous relationships with men, what she has learnt. Her new tour, that's kicking off on Saturday in London. Jade, good to have you with us. Thank you. I'm so pleased to be here. Well, it's good to have you back. It was you that got Jane Garvey into hot water last time when she referred to the Arctic roll as a low level pudding. We're not going to rehash that one.

What was the inspiration for Men I Can Save You? Well, when I'm creating a show, I sort of think about the things I'm thinking about the most. And at that time, I'd just split up with someone. And I was thinking about what my role in that breakup was and my role in all of the relationships that I've had in my life that haven't worked out. And I was looking at that and thinking about, you know, because as as a comedian I don't often want to say to an audience you're the ones that are making the mistakes I like to figure out what my mistakes are because a lot of the time the audience will agree with me and make jokes about that sort of thing and I noticed in my life and also had a friend of mine called Sophie Willen you might have heard

of her she's a star and writer and writer and creator of almost not normal which i'm in as well um she's she we were at her house and she said to me she was like i i'm talking to her about various things we've been friends for years and i was at her house and i was like well i you know this this happens this happens she said i don't want you to be offended but i'm gonna say something to you i need you to read a book it's called Breaking Free of the Drama Triangles and Victim Consciousness now I know you don't read but it's dead thin that I have a bit of saviour complex and um and have brought people into my life that need a little bit of g-ing up and and I put all of my effort into them and then what ends up happening and has happened in the past I've you know I I've been

clean two years of this behavior I'm pleased to say but what has happened in my past is that I've taken on little broken birds and I've fixed them up and then they've flown away and and I was I just thought you know a lot of people will um respond quite well to this sort of um topic of discussion because I think especially women go through that and also the reason why I did it is I did another show which is on Amazon Prime called Serious Black Jumper and it was a show for the women and I thought you know what it's time to even that up and do a show for the blokes as well. I you know I was watching that show chuckling away I wanted to wear a black turtleneck today just in honour of you and I'm afraid I couldn't find a clean one in my house but now instead you are performing wearing all white how does that different clothing change mean or what

are you trying to manifest there? Well what was really interesting about Serious Black Jumper is it just started off as a bit of a joke I'm a working class woman who didn't grow up with conversations about feminism and I just saw on the internet and various media outlets that if you want to be taken seriously as a woman you put a black turtleneck on and you talk about feminism so I sort of picked apart that in the show and then I was thinking about this new show because what ended up happening is even though I was you know taking the mick out of that situation what ended up happening is I changed comedy's perspective of me because they you know like I started off in drag I was in a del drag act for a long time been been very part of the East London

drag scene and then I entered a funny a funny woman the funny women competition and won it in 2014 but I haven't had like a normal route through it and I was told by an ex-agent of mine that people weren't taking me seriously as a stand-up comedian so I just was like all right I'll get rid of all the feathers and all the songs and all the gays and I'll just put a black turtleneck on and then for this show I was like well if that turtleneck is that powerful then what would happen if I just wore white for an entire if I if I dress like Jesus for an entire year and basically people really think I've got I've just got all my stuff together you know and I and there's always a point in a celebrity's life I hope you'll agree where you um you think at some point well I, I've smashed all of this and now it's time for me to help other people.

So I'm sort of, you know, it's a bit of a bit of satire about the sort of the cult of celebrity and the self-help book. So this is my self-help show for the men. So, well, I'm just thinking wearing white. I mean, that takes a lot of effort. In London, you wouldn't last an hour. No, I'm really. Do you know what it's actually done? And I do this a lot of effort in London you wouldn't last an hour no I'm really do you know what it's actually done and I do this a lot I I don't know how other people make their work but I always start with an outfit a color palette I thought I've had and then a beginning and a middle and an end or whatever that may be and then I just get out on a stage somewhere I normally start at the Pleasance in Islington and then I just get out on a stage and just work it out with them um and what happened with the white outfit is after I went through my breakup I just started

wearing white all the time because I watched First Wise Club and I was you know you don't know me walking down the street because I was just feeling I was just feeling it you know and then I and then what happened is actually really slowed my life down because you can't shovel food in your mouth you have to be really you can't you have to think about where you're sitting and I went for a curry actually at the end of um I've just filmed uh finished filming Ruby speaking for ITVX and on the last day we all the cast we went for a curry and I wore all white and they were all commenting on how I didn't get anything down me what they didn't see is that I did get a tiny bit on my trousers, but I just got it off with soda water. Look, there's some tips, right? It comes off.

It's a whole new look. But let's talk about Ruby speaking. So this is the character of the new series, as you mentioned, ITVX. And you visited a call centre in Cardiff for research. But this is really about South Bristol. Why does it need a shout out? Bristol in itself is an incredible city that I have I had the

privilege of moving back to because I had to move to London because back in 2011 there wasn't as many opportunities in Bristol for me to sort of attach myself to but I've come back I came back two years ago I'm now living here you're talking to me from live from Bristol um and it is an spectacular city and is everything that I am and coming back to it and just immersing myself in the culture here it's just it's it's just one of those cities that has um it it links you know the working class history here like the people that live here are really normal like salt of the earth, really clever, intelligent people. But also there's this creative side of it, which, you know, Banksy is really forced into the city as well. He's one of our most famous exports, Iman Darfader. And it just needs to be celebrated.

And I grew up in South Bristol and everything always focuses on the Bristol suspension, the Clifton Suspton suspension bridge which is a great area and I love Clifton I love going for dinner there but it's very affluent South Bristol is a bit more real and I think it's really vibrant and there's lots of people that live for you I we were walking around we've we um we wrapped our series in Totterdown near where I grew up and what was really interesting is you're walking around not a single person's got a like you know like what would be described as a normal haircut. They've all got like bits shaven off.

It's like, you know, they're all really colourful people. So I just thought, what a perfect city to set this show in. And also it's where I'm from. It's where you're from. I loved from your Amazon special talking about feminism and working class women. It says, yeah, they're just in charge. Matriarchal societies, you know, that's that's working class life it says yeah they're just in charge matriarchal societies you know

that's working class life for me you know my mum my mum's a very confident woman with her opinions I'm going to leave it there Jade

but I do want to let everybody know Jade Adams has a new tour it is starting on Saturday it's Men I Can Save You thanks so much

for spending some time with us here on Woman's Hour she does everything right dance sing actor comedian and you can catch her from this weekend Men, I Can Save You. Thanks so much for spending some time with us here on Woman's Hour. She does everything, right? Dance, sing, actor, comedian. And you can catch her from this weekend touring the UK. Tomorrow, I do hope you'll join me again.

We'll be joined by the writer Heidi Thomas, who will be talking about the film Hallelujah, the story of a geriatric ward in a small Yorkshire hospital threatened with closure. It's fabulous. I've started watching that. We'll talk about it tomorrow. See you then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again

next time. Hello, I'm Brian Cox and we are back for season 26 of The Infinite Monkey Cage and we begin, where do we begin, Robin? We start in a galaxy far, far away and a long time ago. It's Australia. Oh, okay. Australia then. We start, it felt

like a galaxy to me but we were in australia where we talked about well spiders you were scared of spiders i wasn't actually scared but you'll hear many trailers for this thing where they say i wasn't scared of spiders oh we also did astronomy actually in australia which is fantastic and then we came back to the uk and we had guests like ross noble susan calum and russell kane ed burn joe brand sally gunnell yeah and a fry sue black random monroe and we found out amongst other things Susan Calliman, Russell Kane, Ed Byrne, Joe Brand, Sally Gunnell. Yeah, Anna Frye, Sue Black, Randa Munro, and we found out, amongst other things, how to commit the perfect murder, which still hasn't really worked for me because I'm still upset at him.

Listen on BBC Sounds. What a great platform. It is wonderful, isn't it? You've got that Robbie Ninson, Professor Cox. I'd leave that poor pussy alone in its box. That cat may be as dead as a rat. You can wage in the infinite monkey cage. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.