Woman's Hour - Malorie Blackman, Trump verdict, Kitemark for female-founded firms, Netball

Episode Date: May 10, 2023

Just Saying’ is a memoir by the bestselling author Malorie Blackman, former Children’s Laureate, best known for her Noughts & Crosses series for young adults. Malorie received eighty-two rejection letters before she finally found a publisher. Seventy published books later it is no exaggeration to say that Malorie Blackman has changed the face of British literature forever. Malorie joins Nuala to discuss her life and works. Donald Trump says he will appeal the verdict of a New York jury in a civil case that found he sexually abused and defamed a woman. The woman in question E Jean Carroll, a magazine columnist, claimed the former US president attacked her in a department store in the mid 1990s.  The civil trial rejected her claim of rape and in total the jury ordered Trump to pay five million dollars in damages to Carroll. Emma Long, Associate Professor in American History and Politics at the University of East Anglia joins Nuala. The campaign group Buy Women Built is launching a kitemark to add to products made by female-founded firms to help boost their sales. This means that when you shop, you will be able to spot and buy from brands created by women - and in turn help their revenue. Nuala is joined by the founder of Buy Women Built, Sahar Hashemi OBE and Lemon Fuller, founder and CEO of Lemonade Dolls, a UK underwear start-up that is part of the Buy Women Built community. England Netball have recently launched a new initiative aimed at supporting women and girls to play the sport at every life stage, by normalising conversations around pelvic health, the menstrual cycle and the menopause, and through offering guidance and support to all those involved in the game. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lucinda Montefiore Studio Manager: Gayl Gordon

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. It is indeed. Good morning and welcome. Now, after reading Malorie Blackman's autobiography, which I have just finished, the phrase that comes to mind is, nevertheless, she persisted. You may know Malory as the author of over 70 books but did you know about the 82 rejections that preceded that success? The challenge is that this woman has overcome poverty, illness, racism, misogyny, I'm just naming some of

them but she continues to thrive and she has defied expectations time and time again. So we're going to talk to Mallory in just a moment. But I would also love to hear your stories of defying expectations. What did you do and how did you do it? The text number 84844 at BBC Women's Hour is where we are on social media or you can email us through our website or indeed for WhatsApp or a voice note 03700 100 444. So how did you defy expectations? How did you do it? I know you're going to get in touch with this one so I'm going to keep an eye there on the console as your messages come in. Also this morning you may have seen that a New York jury found that Donald Trump sexually abused and defamed former columnist E. Jean Carroll. This was in a civil trial. So we

want to talk today about why that case happened now and also its's significant so that will also be coming up a little later To sport netball, do you play? Did you play? So many give up after school, that's what I'm hearing but we're going to be speaking to Dr Emma Ross and also one of the English Roses

Fran Williams and they have plans to keep you in the game for life. So tell me your stories about netball as well, particularly if you're still playing. I'd love to hear from you. Now, still playing could mean that you're a teenager listening. I don't know. Or it could mean that you're off a more advanced stage.

Wherever you are, however you're playing, let me know. But let us turn to Just Saying. That is the memoir by the bestselling author Mallory Blackman, the former Children's Laureate, yes. Maybe best known for her knots across a series for young adults. And I don't do this that often, but I am going to quote what the publishers have written on the back cover of her memoir.

This is the story of a remarkable author who dared to believe that words could change the world. From 82 rejection letters to 70 books published, she has never stopped aspiring to be a writer. Malorie Blackman's books have changed the face of British literature forever. That's worth reading, I think, because those words sum up beautifully just how much she has achieved. Malorie, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. Good morning. How are you? Because those words sum up beautifully just how much she has achieved. Mallory, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. Good morning. How are you?

I am really well and I have loved your book. Where to begin? Why did you call it Just Saying? Well, I think I called it that because when I was younger, I did have a tendency to think that should I venture my opinion and all you know and and you know does anyone want to hear my voice or whatever so I'd always qualify at the end with just saying as if you know it's just saying you know it's just my opinion whatever and then I kind of thought you know what in this world of opinions my opinion is as valid as anybody else's so it just seemed to me a kind of a sort of ironic phrase to to put on the cover because I think certainly as a woman and and particularly as a

black woman um I felt at times that my voice was being squashed or it was not being encouraged or if I spoke it was taking in a different way to if perhaps a man spoke and so on so there was all of that in it so it seemed like the perfect title because these are my words and you know and it's sort of just saying but yeah here I am I'm just speaking my truth speaking you know and saying my bit what what age are you in that photograph on the cover uh I think I was about 19 I was a teen so oh yeah so you know very young and just kind of venturing, venturing forward, still trying to work out who I was, still trying to be comfortable with who I was. But I had the whole world ahead of me. I mean, but, you know, but the way I'm 61 now, I think I still do, you know.

So I think it's about being open to leaving myself open to possibilities and to joy. Well, that is definitely something that you do as we're going to explore. But what do you think that young woman of 19 would think about your life now? I think she'd be I think she'd be kind of stunned, to be honest, because it was certainly never anything that I thought I could do. I never thought I could be a writer. It certainly wasn't a career option when I was at school. And even though I always had a love of books and reading and writing, it just never occurred to me until I was in my 20s

that maybe I could try this. And I think she'd be kind of overall happy with some of the choices I made. Some of them she might think, seriously, we did that? We really did? But some of them I'd think, oh, I like to think she'd think, oh, okay, good for you. I'm glad we did that. So you do say that this book is the hardest thing you've ever written. Why is that? Well, before, every book I've created before has been fiction so I could create my characters and I could have them go through all kinds of terrible things as well as joyous things but they were characters for my imagination and so at the end of the day when I moved away from my keyboard I could move away from those characters and sort of when I

typed the end then I could move on to something else. But this book, because it's a memoir, it's all me. So even when I came away from the keyboard, you know, there was nowhere to hide. And it was sort of like, and there's a lot of joyous stuff in there, I hope. But there's also a lot of kind of stuff I went through, which was less joyous, shall we say. And it just stirred up all kinds of memories and having to deal, it felt like almost in some cases, having to deal with it over again. Well, let's delve into one aspect of that. You were born and lived in South London, got into an excellent grammar school, but life did become very difficult when you hit 13. Your father left and he had failed to pay the mortgage. And the following day, the bailiffs arrive that you describe in such detail. And you and your mother and your two younger brothers were made homeless.

Before we get into that, I want to bring to our listeners a reading from you from just saying you recorded this for us earlier. When I was 14, a school trip was announced. The cost was three digits, but in the low three digits. Might as well be ten digits when you're broke. A meal for a tenner might as well be a meal for £10,000 when you haven't got a single spare pound to call your own. I took the letter home, hope in my heart like a guttering flame, hope in my thoughts that I could go with all my friends on the skiing trip. I stood in our house for the homeless and looked in the fridge that only contained a packet of bacon and a pint of

milk. I shied away from inspecting the mould on the walls and around the windows. I stood in our house for the homeless and hoped. I handed the letter to mum. Can I go? I asked. Please can I go? Mum looked at me. She didn't say a word, just looked at me. I had my answer. She handed back the letter. I put it in the bin. It was never mentioned again. Now, Mallory, that was you writing in verse, which you do at certain points in the book.

Why do you flip into verse instead of prose? I think when I first started writing for myself when I was like eight or nine, it was sort of little short stories and putting myself in adventures. But then my parents split up. I almost exclusively wrote poetry. And the poetry was my way of trying to deal with my thoughts and my feelings. A lot of the times negative, very angry poetry, very. And I admit it, a lot of poetry was sort of a pity party for one. It was me feeling sorry for myself. But that said, I kind of wanted to express myself. And and so it was poetry. I turned to poetry.

And so it seems to me for this memoir, the vast majority of it is prose. But there are moments like that. And when I talk about my sort of my second miscarriage in particular, where I go into free form verse because it meant it felt to me like I was getting closer to the emotions of it and the heart of it. I try and do that throughout the whole book. But poetry just seemed to lend itself to poetry in certain sections of the book. Yeah, I think what I felt reading it is that I'm kind of going along with your stream of consciousness, you know, that these thoughts come in and your mind goes one way and another and it comes across beautifully. But what it does illustrate with what you were reading for us there is really how hard life had become.

And I suppose this maturity that you had, even as a young girl, of what was possible financially and what was not. Tell me a little bit about how you look back on that time now. And have you ever been able to shake off that fear of poverty you know I'd like to say I have but I can see certain behaviors that I still have today that I think are directly affected from then like for example um I always pay my bills on time as soon as the bill comes in I pay it because if I might not have the money tomorrow but I want to make sure I paid it today um and things like you know I hate to see an empty fridge and so and and which is bizarre you know and it's sort of like and and I but I I do try and make

sure my my fridge is stocked um and it's just things like you know just making sure I always try and just save a bit. And whatever I earn, I always put a bit aside to save and so on. But, you know, and it's just certain behaviours. I tend to be very low. I'm very risk averse when it comes to money and so forth. And I guess in a way I've had to kind of just discipline myself for that, because as soon as I stopped being a computer programmer and I became self-employed as a writer, you never know when you're going to sell your next book. You never know how many books you're going to sell. And so I try to be very disciplined about making sure that, you know, that I save for a rainy day and so on. So, and I think there's always, you're never, you never kind of completely kind of calm down.

You never kind of, it's always, okay, but what if this happened? What if that happened? Niggling at the back of your mind. So I kind of feel like, even though I have written 70 books, not all of which are in print, I hasten to add, but even though I've written 70 books, it means you can never rest on your laurels, I guess. But then I kind of think that maybe it's a good thing that I don't. Yeah, so you're always a little bit on alert, perhaps.

Yes, exactly. But let's go through a little because I mentioned that you overcame these challenges. Nevertheless, she persisted. And I'll get to the 82 rejection letters in a moment. But before that, there was a moment that I found so poignant for this young girl who was at the cinema that was meant to be, you know, something fun and relaxing for her to go to. But you had to deal instead with racism and sexual harassment.

If you're OK speaking to our listeners about that, do you mind telling them? Yeah, it was, I went to seeney's robin hood the carton robin hood because i used to love going to the cinema by myself and just sitting down and enjoying the films and then these uh three white boys sat behind me and started making disparaging comments about me as a black girl and being easy and all sorts and then um one of them started touching me and I tried to get up to move away and then uh two of them grabbed my arm so I couldn't move and the other one started kind of you know assaulting me and putting his hands down my blouse and whatever and it was it was terrifying

and it and and it was only I was so terrified that I couldn't even I felt like I was going get off get off but it it took me a while to just think scream just scream alert someone and then they finally let me go kind of laughing their heads off thinking it was all a big joke and I kind of ran out in floods of tears and it's and I again it's one of those things I think it it could have been it might have been a lot worse it was horrific as it was but I but a couple of years ago I thought okay I've never seen the end of this film Robin Hood let me sit down and watch it and I couldn't and every time and I've tried twice and every time I have the memories just come flooding back so I have never been able to watch the end of that film and it's it's a and and I I find that

kind of you know it's a Disney film it's you know, it's a Disney film. It's, you know, it's an animated Disney film, which is not disparaging on Disney films, but it's just to say, but I can't even sit through it because of the memories that come back to me when I start to watch it. And, you know, and those boys thought, you know, if they even remember it at all, just look back and think, oh, wasn't that funny when we did that or whatever. And I mean, because obviously there's going to be grown men now but I thought it was devastating for

me and it just meant it it changed my life in that I I became very wary of men I mean I was walking home it would be the keys in my hand walking in the middle of the road rather than on the pavement for years I did that because I just did not feel safe and and I kind of feel then you know that and but show me a woman who hasn't who hasn't been in some way verbally abused sexually abused or whatever who doesn't feel the same way and I'm so you know and again it's one of these things where I think maybe that's why we all we all read and watch dramas and watch films and so on to to know we're not alone. And and to know that, you know, that experiences we've been through, other people have been through, other women have been through.

And so you're not alone in that. And I think that's one of the most precious things we can have in this life is to know we are not alone in our experiences. You explained there, of course, how you were experiencing racism and misogyny in that cinema. Another aspect that, you know, I suppose had me slack-jawed was the time the careers teacher told you that black people don't become teachers.

I mean, how did you keep coming back from all these knockbacks that were being lobbed at you left, right and centre? Well, I felt I had no choice because if I had let these people stop me, they would have won. And I think it's about, you know,

as Denzel Washington says, if you get knocked down seven times, get back up eight and just keep going and just keep moving and and my philosophy has always been when people stand in my face and tell me no I try and find a way to go around them I don't stand there arguing with them that's a waste of time I don't let them stop me hell no so what I try and do is find a way to go around them and sometimes it takes more time um and sometimes the journey is more difficult but I will never let people with those kinds of attitudes stop me. Obviously not because let's get to the 82 my correct rejection letters and now of course this

famous and successful writer uh What was that like? I mean, I want to know what it was like in the midst of it, you know, and you do talk about it in the book, but when you get to, like, rejection letter number 63, for example. Yeah, well, I'm not going to lie. I did begin to wonder if it was ever going to happen. But, you know, it was one of those things when I started writing, I knew I had found the thing that I wanted to do with the rest of my life.

So how could I give up on that? I really felt like this is it. I want to be an author. But I'm not going to lie. I came so close to giving up. I should tell our listeners, you have your forefinger and your thumb with just a millimetre in between it as you hold up your hand. Exactly. So I did come close to giving up.

I kind of thought, well, if all these editors are saying no, maybe I should listen. But then I thought, but I really want to do this. So just keep going, keep going. And then I was lucky enough that I got to meet Alice Walker. She was doing a signing and in a bookshop in Charing Cross Road, the Silver Moon Bookshop in Charing Cross Road. And I queued up for two hours, got to the front of the queue. And I said, please, could you write Don't Give Up in this? And she said, I can't write that. What does that mean? And I said, well, I've had over 60 rejection letters and all these editors are saying no, but I really want to be a writer. And she looked at me, she said, don't you dare give up. And she wrote Don give up Mallory um Alice Walker and it was it was you know it was I treasured the book I still have

it and I thought well I can't give up now Alice Walker's told me I can't give up so that spurred me on but also I think what it was was the some of the editors started sending me letters saying why they weren't taking the book it wasn't just a standard rejection they took pains to tell me in a page or two exactly why the story wasn't working and I thought if they're taking all this time to explain why it's not working then maybe they see something in my writing it's just a story that doesn't work and so that was very encouraging and so you know and I so I used that as a again as a spur to kind of keep going. But it was difficult. And it was sometimes, you know,

there were these moments of despair when the postman would arrive and he'd have sort of my SAE, my stamped address envelope, come back to me so I recognised my own handwriting. So I knew it was another book that had been bounced back to me. And it was dispiriting, but I just thought, I'm going to do this.

I'm not going to give up. I'm going to keep going. I'm not going to give up. I'm going to keep going. Because my thing was, I think I'm more afraid of being on my deathbed and regretting never having tried than having failed. I don't mind if I've tried something, given it my all and failed. At least I gave it a damn good go. Well, Mallory, they are never going to write. She didn't try. She didn't try.

I think, you know, I'm more afraid of not having tried than having failed at something. If you fail at something and you've given it a try, at least you've given it a good go. But to not try something because you're afraid of failure or you're afraid of what other people might say

or what they might think or something, for me that was always worse. Yes. No, that did not happen. And that's not a spoiler alert with the book. I think we know that from the get go. But a couple of things. One, you know, you did go we have London as this great backdrop as well in your book. But you did go to bookstores to try and see where black children in particular represented in any way. Talk us through that visit. Yeah, I remember I knew I wanted to be a writer. I wasn't quite sure

what kind of writing I wanted to do. You did do extensive research. Yeah, so I did. I sort of bought every book on how to write that was out there, sort of sci-fi, thrillers mysteries who've done its plays whatever and then I was in a children's bookshop in Covent Garden and she was just walking around and I was stunned at the lack of uh faces of color on the on the jackets of these books there were none and then and I was kept going in there

regularly and I remember finally stumbling across one, which was The Thief in the Village and Other Stories by James Berry. And it was the one. And I went to the cashier and I said, do you have any other books that feature black characters? And she said, no. And I just thought, good grief, you know, this is the 1980s and there aren't any.

So I kind of felt like, okay I instead of whinging about this maybe this is the area I can go into and I can try and write for children and change this so that's that's what I wanted to to do but may I can I just say as well I mean it sounds a bit like a plug but the British Library are doing an uh exhibition of of my work and so on and my life as a writer later on in the year. And so if you want to see any of these rejection letters or some of these other things. I'm definitely going to that. I'm definitely going to that. But, you know, just to give our listeners in our limited time, I mean, you worked in computing. You were doing business studies. You tried acting courses before you found your way into becoming this incredibly successful writer. And also we just alluded to there just the research that you do. I've read that you try to learn something new every year. Have I heard saxophone, various languages, drumming?

You know, so you just the expanse. I'm just in awe of, to be quite honest. And I was like, I want to know, what are you reading now? What are you watching now? Oh, well, I'm reading so many different things. It's kind of moving from one thing to another, depending on how the mood suits me. But what am I watching? Well, I kind of like watching,

it's a programme that I never thought I'd get into, but it's called 9-1-1. And it's an American thing about the emergency services. It's about the dispatchers and the firefighters and the police and how they all work together and so on. But it's about their lives. And I think there's something fascinating about people who, when everybody else is running away from danger,

will run towards it to help others. And I never really thought about it before I started watching that. I also want to get into succession, because everyone's been raving about that. So that's my next thing to binge watch um and especially with all these spoilers coming at me I feel like I know the story anyway but I'm still going to watch it and in terms of reading I mean gosh um I'm reading Alex um Alex Rietel's um autobiography at the moment and and and which the title of stuff I think it's because i can't

remember the title because i'm so rubbish at titles but i am really enjoying that i started that last week so i am definitely kind of that's that's the one i'm looking forward to or the one that i'm kind of getting into at the moment and i will let people know that you are working on adult fiction at the moment but don't like to jinx it, is that correct? By talking about it? Alex Wheatle's book, just before I go into that, is called Sufferer. So that's the one I'm reading at the moment but I am working on my

first adult crime novel and I'm so enjoying that. I'm so enjoying that. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you on. Mallory Blackman's memoir is just saying, she's the best-selling author of Noughts and Crosses as well. But, you know, I tip my hat to you.

Really amazing, the life that you have created. And lots more to come. Mallory, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Now, let me just, oh my goodness, lots of you have been engrossed in the conversation with Mallory and I see so many of you

have been getting in touch here's Kate so inspiring listening this morning I grew up in a terribly abusive family and spent most of my teenage years in foster care

I'm now a successful visual artist and senior academic I suspect most people who encountered me in my childhood would think I'm in prison the desire to prove them wrong

has sustained me. Thank you, Kate, for getting in touch. 84844. Also a ton of you getting in touch about netball. Love that you're talking about netball. I'm 45. I've played almost all my life since the age of 13 and now playing a team with my 14-year-old daughter.

I love it so much. Fabulous initiative from England Netball to keep us all playing. Netball is life. There you go. We'll come back to that a little bit later i want to turn next to new york donald trump says he will appeal the verdict of a new york jury in a civil case that found that he sexually abused and defamed a woman he gave his reaction to the verdict on his truth social site. I don't even know who this woman is. I have no idea who she is, where she came from. This is another scam. It's a political witch hunt.

And somehow we're going to have to fight this stuff. We cannot let our country go into this abyss. This is disgraceful. The woman in question, her name is E. Jean Carroll. She's a magazine columnist. She claimed the former U.S. president attacked her in a department store in the mid-1990s. The civil trial rejected her claim of rape. And in total, the jury ordered Trump to pay $5 million in damages to Carroll. She said in a statement, the victory is not just for me, but for every woman who has suffered because she was not believed. I'm joined now by Emma Long, associate professor in American history and politics at the University of East Anglia. Welcome back to Woman's Hour, Emma. Good to have you with us.

So remind us how this case was brought against Mr. Trump, a civil case as opposed to a criminal case. Yeah, so back a few years ago, New York and their governor began a process of a series of laws to provide greater support for victims of sexual assault and domestic violence, both who experienced it as children and as adults. Part of that included laws which allowed victims to bring civil suits, which effectively are cases for damages like this one, where what's called the statute of limitations has expired.

So for a lot of cases like this, there's a period of time where you can bring a criminal case, but the ability to bring that case expires after time, partly because memories fade, evidence becomes harder to collect after a period of time, judgments therefore become perhaps less sound. But in 2022, New York passed the Adult Survivors Act, which allowed adult survivors of sexual abuse to bring civil suits as part of being able to have their voices heard about trying to bring restitution. We know both in the UK and in the US that victims of sexual assault often do not bring cases, often are not believed, often don't report these things. So it was part of a much bigger process to bring this to light, to give people the opportunity to, in a way, have their day in court. There was a children's version which led to about 11,000 applications

and 11,000 cases. We don't yet know quite what the number is going to be with the adult one, but this is obviously pretty much among the most high profile. Yes, indeed. Mr. Trump was found to have sexually assaulted her, not raping her. Do we know why one and not the other? No. All we have is the charge sheet from the jury. We know that they had three options. If you like, rape was the most serious sexual assault and then forcible touching, which was the third option.

They found that there was sufficient evidence to find the the second but not the the first but that comes simply as a result not uh not an explanation and it is five million dollars i believe rather than a jail sentence um yes because it's a civil case there aren't criminal penalties attached to it. So financial restitution is sort of the only area that civil cases have open to them. So he is planning to appeal. Do we know what that would entail or how it would, whether it would involve E. Jean Carroll? It's probably unlikely to involve her directly. Appeals are not, despite the fact that in this case, Trump is saying that, you know, he was he's not guilty and he didn't do it. That's not what appeals are for. An appeals process is not I just don't like the result and therefore I'm going to try and get you to change it.

Appeals don't generally relook at the verdict, particularly when there's been a jury, what they will consider is were there procedural irregularities? Was evidence included that shouldn't have been? Was there evidence that was excluded that should have been heard by the jury? Were instructions by the judge incorrect? We don't know exactly what grounds Trump's lawyers will make a claim for an appeal on. But usually appeals are about process and procedure rather than anything else. So it will tell us something as and when or if we see those documents. But, you know, an appeal is not unexpected given the importance of this case. And I wonder, do you think it will set a precedent in any way for other cases? I know this was specifically the adult survivor's law that you explained. New York has been one of the leaders in trying to bring these kinds of lawsuits through.

So it's difficult to know exactly what kind of precedent it might set. Each case, it's a bit of a truism when it comes to the law, but each case is decided on its individual facts. And there were, you know, particular facts about this case that may not apply in others. So I think the fact that the jury found in Ms Carroll's favour, that they believed her, I think that's important because that is at least part of what the purpose of this law was to do, was to say to victims, we will believe you, we will listen to you, we will bring these before a jury. So it may well encourage people to come forward. Beyond that, it's difficult to know what the bigger consequences might be. I understand. Emma, you are an associate professor of American history and politics, as I mentioned.

Is it possible to know whether it will have any impact on the next presidential election? We're a long way out from the presidential election. Are we though? I mean, when it comes to the United States, I mean, campaigning is underway. Yes, that's certainly true. And we know that Trump had put himself forward, that he's holding rallies and those kinds of things. But in terms of the actual election date, we're a long way from that and a lot can happen in the meantime. I think it's been very interesting

that most Republicans have been very quiet about this. There's not been a huge response to the verdict. They sort of don't seem to want to touch it. But at the same time, you have to remember that people voted in large numbers for Trump in 2016 and 2020, sort of knowing about some of these allegations, at least. at that point. And it didn't seem to have a massive impact, certainly on some voters. So sad as it is to say, for Trump's base, who are already convinced this is part of the witch hunt that Trump has said it is, this is not going to make any difference. For those who already dislike Trump or are sceptical of him, this is going to reinforce their views. So there's a very small group in the middle where this might have some kind of impact on the way that they vote.

But there's a lot of campaigning and a lot of events that can come in the meantime that can shift the balance either way. And the independent female voter was what some were questioning, but it remains to be seen. Emma Long, Associate Professor in American History and Politics at the University of East Anglia. Thanks so much.

Thank you. And also thanks to you, all the messages coming in. Mallory Blackman, Catherine, listening to the wonderful, immensely talented and kind Mallory Blackman talking about writers who inspired her to keep going.

She did that for me and my debut went on to win the Edinburgh Book Festival First Book Award. Wonderful, immensely talented and kind Mallory Blackman talking about writers who inspired her to keep going. She did that for me and my debut went on to win the Edinburgh Book Festival First Book Award. She is the most fabulous human being I've ever met. What a lovely thing to be said about you, right? Hackney Bell says, what a woman. Mallory Blackman is so inspirational. I'll keep those messages coming. Lots on netball coming in as well.

I have to read this one because she's not going to stick around for my conversation. She's going to listen to it later, she said. Let me see. I had it a second ago. Here we go. Sue, I will probably miss your item on netball because I'm heading out for my walking netball session at 10.30.

I just missed you, Sue. The Beckenham Bandits are a brilliant group of women who play for fun and exercise twice a week. I'm in my 60s and our eldest players are in their 70s. You're never too old.

We'll listen to catch up later to see if you've given us a plug. Ha ha, I just did it, Sue. Without you even knowing. Right, let us move on to the campaign group by Women Built. They're launching a kite mark to add to products made by female-founded firms to help boost their sales.

So it means that when you shop, you'll be able to spot and buy from brands that are created by women and in turn help their revenue. So the UK startup industry particularly, it lacks female representation. Listen to these figures. Only 6% of women start businesses compared to 15% in Canada, 11% in the States. But would knowing who made something change your mind about what you buy? Well, in studio with me,

I'm joined by the founder of Buy Women Built, Sahar Hashemi, OBE, and Lemon Fuller, founder and CEO of Lemonade Dolls, an underwear startup that is part of the Buy Women Built community. Good morning. Welcome. Good morning. Now, Sahar, do you really think that this is going to make a difference with shoppers, that they're going to go, ha ha, I'm going to get that one instead because a woman made it? Absolutely. Basically, the idea came to me when I remember I saw a tweet down in one of the lockdowns. And the tweet was, not all of us can invest in women, not all of us

can mentor women, but we can all buy from them. And then I just kind of remember thinking, yeah, we can all buy from them. It's actually a brilliant idea, but we don't know who they are. And there really is a sort of lack of awareness about female entrepreneurs. I don't know if you've seen the stat, but 81% of 11 to 18-year-olds can't name a single female entrepreneur. That stuck with me, actually, when I was reading the research. They couldn't name one. And, you know, that's not good. Yes.

And exactly what I knew from just, in a way, being in that world is there are so many brands all around us. When we go shopping, when we're in the supermarket, when we're in Superdrug, when we're in Boots. There's so many of these incredible brands are actually built by women. And what a sort of gap that we don't realize these are women-built brands. And at the same time as, you know,

there is such a kind of willingness to support women. What better way of supporting women than actually, you know, buying their products and connecting yourself to a woman founder very much like Lemon. I see a cube in front of you with Buy Women Built. What is that? Well that is actually a kite

mark. This is our logo that is already starting to go on products which we're so excited about. And that will go on products. But let's talk about it. So the kite mark, some of us might be aware of it, you know that it signified, you know, certain aspects of where something was made or what it did. What will this look like? How will people know? Well, really through our campaign, they'll

see exactly this, the by women built. Okay, so let's describe it. Exactly. It's a sort of, I suppose it's a square and it's got by women built, says what it does on the tin. I mean, with my co-founder, Barney McCauley, who's a big marketing expert, you know, the reason why he started it with me. And it's interesting. I started this with a man rather. So this is not just about women buying from women. It's sort of something for all of us.

He said, you know, you've got to tell people what to do. So this was very much buy as in B-U-Y. So would that be like in a small corner of a shirt or would it be in the shop? Yeah, you've got it on your packaging. Go ahead, then.

Yeah, we've just got it printed on our swing tag, on our packaging. We're putting it on our website, all our emails, so people can see it and respond to it and understand that they are supporting a female- business. And they're building, you know, a greater economy,

because the amount of money that we're losing from being so behind as a country, lacking in female entrepreneurs. So you founded Lemonade Dolls, what was that like? I mean, to get the money to get going? Wow, we definitely don't have enough time for me to go into it. It's been a roller coaster journey. It's been fantastic. There's been huge highs and huge lows. The biggest challenge for me was raising money as a female entrepreneur. Why as a female? Because females actually only contribute to, well, sorry, the VC funds contribute to the venture capitalist funds. Yeah, they only contribute to 2% of their funds to women, basically. So 98% go to male run businesses. Why? Why? Why? You know, I still ask myself that question. And right now, I'm in a

position where I'm actually, you you know able to access that cash now but when I started it was a real challenge and I do believe it's because you know if you don't understand the product and a lot of men don't understand the products that we are making that are super authentic and transparent to our needs and most of the brands on Buy Women Built have created their businesses through a need personal need. You're reminding me I'm wearing a jumpsuit today and you're just reminding me, I'm wearing a jumpsuit today and you're just reminding me of a good friend of mine when I was like, oh, my husband doesn't like that.

It's like men don't understand jumpsuits. Yes, but exactly, exactly. So you're sitting there and you're talking to, you know, a room full of men deciding whether they're going to give you money and you're selling a product, you know, my underwear, but we want sexy, comfortable, you know, ethical undies that are inclusive and diverse. And they're looking at you like, why, comfortable, you know, ethical undies that are inclusive and diverse. And they're looking at you like, why would anyone, you know, why would anyone need underwear? Well,

actually half the population wear them every single day. Yeah. And maybe the underwear was comfortable. Yes. And it might be different to the underwear that they might buy, for example, for their partner. I did read so hard that you said men have golf clubs, but no one has created that kind of forum for women. What do we have now? Or what are you creating? Well, that's equivalent to the golf club. Very much behind our movement is because we're a real grassroots movement is we've got this incredible community of female built brands and putting them all together really is the sort of magic happens when you put them all together because in a way I think they've all been quite disconnected. And some of the comments we get is, you put them all together, because in a way, I think they've all been quite disconnected.

And some of the comments we get is, you know, I finally found my tribe. But where are you meeting? Like, is it online or do you, I don't know. Like, I think the golf club is such a good example of where the disparity is. Absolutely. Well, we have, you know, women. Not that women don't play golf. They do. But I understand what you're saying. What's extraordinary is that traditionally we associate men with networking, whereas women are so good at networking because women enjoy networking. Women chat for the sake of chatting. The sort of chatting is the therapy.

And that's why I believe, you know, women make incredible entrepreneurs. And I've always believed that actually a lot of our female characteristics lend particularly well to entrepreneurship. So be it our resourcefulness, be it that the consumer economy, if it had a sex, it would be female and be it our networking and our chattiness. But that's true. I think that I don't even think once you're in it that you have any doubts about the ability of women to be fantastic entrepreneurs. But it is trying to convince the money men, if I can say that, leaning on Lemon's experience. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and that's what we see is there are so many. And really the idea came to Bonnie and I by Wimbledon was we talk a lot about how not enough investment goes to women built brands. But what we never talk about is look what they have done.

I mean, the point of this kite market is when you see it in a supermarket, you go, this is what women can achieve. And the idea is. So you're kind of going at it from the other end. From the other end. Look how much they've achieved. When I look at all the Buy Women Built brands, I'm like, look what women can do. And I want some eight-year-old who perhaps has got, you know, there's some barrier in her

mind that she can't do it, that entrepreneurship is not for women to think. If she did it, maybe I can do it too. You know, when I am out shopping, and this is something that has not been resolved, as we know, we have often heard about products that are on the high street, etc., that

a lot of women in other countries are making in horrendous conditions with terrible income. Minimum, it's not even a minimum wage, perhaps, country, but, you know, like that are just eking out a living and that there's exploitation there. And I'm wondering, how do you know how everything that's made even though it has the woman stamp on it like it's where it originates who are the people that have created that at the very beginning of the product's journey. Lemon's a great example of that so on that lemon. Yeah I guess you know first of all you decide Sahar who can kind of have this kite mark and and you kind of are that are that judge but everyone in the by moment built um collective um we're all conscious founders we're all building something from a need and everyone is super transparent with how if you

go on our websites you can see most of them are b corp if not we're all applying for our applications and you, everyone's allowing that kind of transparency on how we've built these businesses because it's important to us. Yeah. You know, and authenticity. And authenticity.

It's such an interesting one. I might throw it out to my listeners. I have 84844. Can you answer Sahara's question for the female entrepreneurs? Who is the person that you would highlight? You've been also, I understand,

lemon to Downing Street to talk about getting young women into entrepreneurship. How did that go? It was fantastic. I went there to really try and explain the gap between young, underprivileged people and how talented they are and what we can do to really build them a platform to succeed and excel

and bring them opportunity around kind of the entrepreneurial world and always around investment for me because I really would love to see the government bringing in lots of kind of ways for young people to step into building their own businesses. Do you think it's changed at all, your access to investment? Personally. Personally, but also for the others that are just coming up behind you. So I have seen a massive difference in my access to investment because my business has built and grown. And all of a sudden I'm treated very differently.

I'm actually, you know, I've turned down cash this year. Whereas the last three years I've been begging, borrowing, stealing cash from anywhere I can get it. I wouldn't say that the story has changed for female entrepreneurs. I think when you have actually managed to get to a point where you have a clear story and the sales are undeniable, then you get the cash. But confidence is a huge issue yet again. Huge. I think. And that's why different picture. But confidence is a huge issue yet again. Huge. I think. And that's why, yeah.

And connecting them and showing how many there are and sort of almost connecting the dots makes a difference. And you were talking about the golf club. Funny enough, when a lot of them went to Downing Street and many of them were from the Biowomen Network, a lot of them said to me, it's funny, I now seek out all the women in the room

and there's a real connection between all the women, whereas it used to be very much about the men doing it in their own way. So that is where the women are. Sahar Hashemi, OBE, and Lemon Fuller, the founder and CEO of Lemonade Dolls. Thank you both so much. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Now I want to move on to a little bit of sports. I'm sure you know by now that Women's Hour is shining a light on women's sport. We released our Women in Sport Power List back in March featuring game-changing women on and off the pitch or court if you're into netball. A lot of you are that have been getting in touch.

The governing body England Netball have recently launched Netball Her, a new initiative aimed at supporting women and girls to play the sport at every life stage, including starting conversations around pelvic health, the menstrual cycle, the menopause, all the way through. So, opposite me, hello, I have Dr Emma Ross and beside me on Zoom, I have England netballer Fran Williams. Good morning to

you both. Good morning. Great to have you both. Good morning. Good morning. Great to have both of you with us. I can't tell you how many messages are coming in from netballers. I mean, we have got them on Women's Hour. But Emma, let me start with you. What's this netballer initiative all about? So in sport, we've tended to ignore women's health and it's been medicalised and kept out of this kind of sporting environment. And actually, women's bodies are holding them back from enjoying sport, participating and performing at the highest level, whether it's managing periods, coming back after having a baby, going through menopause. We don't want women's bodies to hold them back from enjoying a sport, as you've heard from all of your listeners that they love. So

Ingle and Epwell have teamed up with us at the Well HQ to really try and educate everyone about women's bodies so that they can get the most out of them. So Fran, what have you seen that has changed? I mean, maybe even when you were playing when you were younger, was menstrual or pelvic health something that was chatted about? Absolutely not. And I think it's definitely something now that we're really trying to introduce to help go alongside all life stages as you kind of previously mentioned that support with your female body

alongside playing sport because um you know that is our tool to being able to enjoy sport and you know you need to give it the same respect um that you would do any of my other training and um i'm put so much time into training for netball the gym my fitness all of those things even to what I eat and you know how much sleep I'm getting at the elite level of the game but I can't then ignore other elements of my female body that are unique to me being a woman and not give that the same kind of attention that I do to all my other types of training. I want to get back into figures again I was talking about some there with our women entrepreneurs. But here's a statistic. 64% of girls will have left sport by the time they finish puberty.

That's according to a study by women in sport. Also, here's another one. 39% of teenagers, this is according to Netball's governing body, 39% of teenagers do not play sport at all when they have their period. What can you do, Emma, you think, to have women play sport at all when they have their period. What can you do, Emma, you think, to have women play sport while they have their period? Or is it to just draw attention to it? What's the goal? Well, I think we have the stats about how many girls are skipping sport when they're on their period, but no one's having the conversation about why. No one's, you know, everyone's individual

story will be different. So you might have one girl who's started her periods very recently and hasn't got scripts with tampons and doesn't want to wear a pad when she's wearing a short netball skirt with netball knickers. You might have another girl who's in severe pain while she's having a period, another girl who has a heavy period and can't be away from a bathroom for very long. But we're not comfortable to even initiate these conversations and get curious and really compassionate about people's experiences. So has that started those conversations? I mean they have in sports like netball and actually netball have brilliantly tried to change their whole system to make sure this happens so this is not just a shiny campaign this isn't just creating a website that people can go

and learn about their bodies and that's the end of it netball have invested in training their coaches and when coaches feel better educated about girls bodies they will feel more comfortable and confident to have conversations so it's it's about having a really holistic view about how we change the culture of sport as well as educating people um Going back to you Fran at the elite level you now submit information on your menstrual cycle to your coaching setup how do you feel about that and do you have any worries about privacy personal health data you know being given over? No I think it's a great tool to honest. And I think it's something that England Netball within the staff for us as the Roses program,

they're trying to get even more kind of research and information into how our bodies work, what's normal for us. So they can help support us when we're not feeling like confident or maybe we are struggling with heavy symptoms. And I guess, you know, we want perform at our best and um any kind of little extra gains that we can be doing to try and support that yeah i guess as a team where we're all in for and i guess it's building that relationship it is having that confidence and comfortable relationship with your coaches that you do feel um safe in those space sharing that information and i think then that's testament to our culture that we know that everyone's got best interests at heart yeah because i'm just thinking what if you don't get a period?

What if you're pregnant? What if you don't want somebody to know yet? Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But for example, that's something that's happened to me. And I'm very open about talking about that. Like I didn't have a period for over a year. And that's something that I was able to talk to with my team doctor about and see a specialist with and kind of look at what contraception I was on and try and find out why that was maybe happening

and how I could maybe get back to more of a normal cycle but you know that wouldn't have happened maybe if I wasn't having to you know mentally like log that every month and realize and then I said oh maybe I should raise this and have this discussion with and you know I'm grateful to have trained professionals available to me and have that access by being an elite athlete but then to be able to utilize that and get the support not just so I can be a better netballer but just also make sure that I'm a healthy female because the months go in sometimes if we're not tracking them to know exactly what's happening exactly I want to turn to pelvic floor issues you know there'll be lots of people there's always the joke about the kids' trampoline

right at the party. And also perhaps playing sports, worried about leaking. This can happen to elite athletes as well as your regular woman, Emma. Yeah, I mean, we've considered, you know, pelvic floor dysfunction as a postnatal mum thing and then perhaps an older woman thing.

And, you know, like you say, the oops moments when we sneeze or laugh or trampoline um but actually when we're all at the same time although that's a bad day isn't it um but actually in sport we're seeing the prevalence of pelvic floor dysfunction and that might look like leaking urine for example um as high in these young fit athletes as it is in postnatal women. Why? So the reasons are very different. And that's why it's really important to understand like the cause of dysfunction, because in young fit athletes, we've got women who are training their bodies, they get very strong in their core, they have their core switched on. And the pelvic floor is a really important part of our core muscles. And so in young fit athletes, it can often be switched on all the time,

and they don't know how to relax it. And so you've got this muscle that's just on, on, on. And then when you put really loads of loads through your body, like you land from a jump or you start to sprint, that poor pelvic floor muscle just goes, I'm so tired. And it just has a moment of weakness. But actually, it's overactive. And we need to teach these athletes to relax their pelvic floor as well as do their pelvic floor exercise for strength. OK, Fran, you're talking about periods. Will you and your teammates talk about leaking?

Yeah, I think we would have a little bit of a joke about that, particularly if the S&C coach makes us start doing pogo jumps. That's a classic. Which coach? Tell me what's that acronym? Our strength and conditioning coach in the gym. Obviously, I don't have one. But yeah, no, that's definitely something that we might joke about. But we kind of want to get to the point where we're not just joking about it, but we're also able to make some actions on that and actually improve it.

And yes, it might be a bit funny at the start of a warm up. But actually, is this something that we should be addressing and being able to train a bit better and integrate a bit more into our exercise programme so that we are supporting that? And that's not something that we just kind of laugh about. And it's actually something that we're trying to get better. Well, also, I think if people were leaking, they're like, oh, I'm just an elite athlete. I'm just like the elite athlete. So it kind of takes the stigma out of it. Happens to everyone. Happens to everyone. We've just got about 90 seconds.

I want to get to sports bras just quickly. I'm told England Netball will be providing sports bra fittings for their squad going forward. I was reading that even Serena Williams finds it difficult to get a good sports bra.

Oh, absolutely. And the bigger the breast tissue, you know, the bigger your bra size, the harder it is to find the right support. But we know that a good fitting sports bra can impact performance so you can be you know I could be lining up on the start line of a marathon

next to a clone of myself and if she's wearing a poorly fitting bra and I'm wearing a brilliantly fitted sports bra I will finish a mile ahead of her just because of the impact of breast movement on how our body moves and how exercise feels so sports bras are super important and lots of women aren't getting them right and you have a colleague Eleanor Caldwell she's doing her bit for sports bras Fran yeah she's being an amazing ambassador at the moment um you know and using her own social media channels to really kind of um push forward support for those who with bigger breasts finding the right fitting sports bra giving her own independent reviews on different sports bras um so yeah definitely check her out on social media if anyone wants some support and advice support in more ways than one excuse the time

oh the female body bible yes i was reading about this it looks fantastic that's the book dr emma r, let me see. Baz Moffat and Dr. Bella Smith. It's about everything we need to be knowing about where in our cycles that we should be exercising, which sort of exercise, when and all that. Everything about the female body

so it doesn't hold you back from moving it and loving it. I have loved this conversation. Dr. Emma Ross and England netballer, our England Rose, Fran Williams. And thank you for all the messages that have been coming in, I have to say, over the past few minutes.

Just amazing to see them. Huge love for the netball. It's a sport that crosses over many age groups. My competitive team have players from 16 to 60. There are few opportunities to build relationships with people outside your demographic and I've really valued that opportunity

special shout out to the hundreds of volunteers across the country who are vital for the sport that is Catherine in Bristol thanks so much for all the messages tomorrow

Anita will have couples who do podcasts she'll be joined by Rosie and Chris Ramsey the married couple from South Shields behind the pod sensation Shagged

Married Annoyed. If you're a fan, you will know all about them. I will be away next week, but Hayley will be in. I'll see you the week after. And thank you so much for getting in touch with all these messages that I'm going to take a look through right now and for listening to Woman's Hour on BBC Radio 4.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. What could be more modern than a net zero travel show? A show about going places that never goes anywhere. Welcome then to Your Place or Mine on BBC Radio 4. I'm Sean Keaveney and I love travelling almost as much as I love staying at home and watching music documentaries. I figure Massachusetts, you know,

for somebody like you who doesn't particularly enjoy broadening their horizons, it would be sort of a baby step because Massachusetts is kind of the heart of New England. So, you know, it wouldn't be too shocking for you. Each week, another fantastic and intrepid guest attempts to

lull me out of my postcode with persuasion alone. Eat the insects too I mean that's what they do a lot in Oaxaca. They normally roast them and then you can scatter them on your guacamole. There's something deliciously kind of earthy and umami about insects. Anybody who's been on the back of my Uncle Paul's motorbike's eaten a lot of. Yeah, there you are. Because he goes very fast. Your place or mine. With me, Sean Keaveney. Listen and subscribe on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,

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from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.