Woman's Hour - Maria Callas, Loulou Storey & Lucy Adlington on casual workwear, International Aid legal challenge & slavery reparations

Episode Date: July 19, 2021

Maria Callas is one of the most famous opera singers. She was brought up in New York and Greece by an emotionally abusive mother who forced her to sing. Despite being admired by Hollywood stars and royalty, she fought sexism to rise to the top but never had a happy private life. Lyndsy Spence's new book Cast a Diva draws on previously unseen documents to reveal her tragic story.Stacie Marshall has inherited her family's farm in a small Appalachian valley in the US state of Georgia. She'd vaguely known about the history of her family and their land but it wasn't until she moved into her grandparents house that she realised her family had in fact owned seven enslaved people. Now Stacie, the only young woman running a farm in the valley, is trying to make amends for the wrongs of her ancestors. She joins us live from Georgia and we also hear from Nkechi Taifa a civil and human rights lawyer and long-standing reparations advocate.A charity that provides sexual and reproductive support to disadvantaged women around the world is threatening legal action against the UK government, over their recent decision to cut the international aid budget by around £4 billion. We speak to Mina Barlow, Director for External Relations at The International Planned Parenthood Foundation.And we look at the new casual officewear trends with Fashion Historian Lucy Adlington & Style Coach Loulou Storey to consider if the way we dress for work has changed forever? Presenter: Chloe Tilley Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Sue Maillot

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, thank you for joining me, Chloe Tilley, here on the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning, welcome to Monday's programme. Now, if you're in England today, today is the day when virtually all COVID restrictions are lifted, including an end to social distancing, dubbed by the tabloids as Freedom Day. But the government has tried to rein that in in recent days. So what does Freedom Day mean to you today? What will you be doing differently? Anything? Nothing? Are you nervous about heading out to the shops or going on public transport in case unmasked people get too close? Or are you actually just looking forward to another

step closer to normal life? Of course, if you're in Scotland, if you're in Wales or Northern Ireland, are you watching what happens in England with a sense of unease or maybe it's envy? Text us now on 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour and you can email us through our website. Of course, we mustn't forget that the Health Secretary has tested positive for COVID,

albeit with minor symptoms after being double jabbed. Both the Prime Minister and the Chancellor are also self-isolating after coming into close contact with him. They initially said they wouldn't because they were taking part in a pilot programme of daily testing. But we know cases are still rising, almost 50,000 a day yesterday. However, deaths remain much lower than previous waves. Professor Neil Ferguson, he's a member of SAGE, he spoke to the BBC yesterday and said that 100,000 cases a day are almost inevitable, as are 1,000 hospitalisations.

It could even double that. So what does so-called Freedom Day look like to you? You can text us now, 84844, and we're at BBC Women's Hour on social media. Lots of you getting in touch with us already this morning. Sarah Kate says, my dad is over the border though. I'm in Wales and it's really worrying.

Another one here from Sue says, it means putting up with more idiots not wearing a mask. I work in a supermarket. I'll still wear mine. Business as usual. Hashtag exhausted. But Sunshine Singers in Swindon got in touch saying, it means I can start Swindon's

first baby toddler friendly choir. So mums and dads who can't usually access the benefits of singing in the choir due to parenting responsibilities can come along and sing for themselves. Get in touch with us this morning with your thoughts on that. And later in the programme, as many people gradually begin to head back to work from today, we'll look at what we might want to wear to work, how fashion has changed during the pandemic with the help of a style coach and a fashion historian. We're also going to be talking to a US farmer in the state of Georgia who discovered her ancestors had slaves working on their farm. She now wants to make amends and she'll speak to us about what

that looked like. And we're going to speak to the charity International Planned Parenthood Foundation. It's threatening legal action against the UK government over the international aid cut, which of course was approved by MPs last week. The reality will be there will be a reduction of £4 billion a year in aid. But let's begin by speaking to the double Paralympic world champion long jumper and sprinter Olivia Breen. She was competing internationally yesterday. I mean, she's been competing at that level for nine years ago. But yesterday it was the English Championships.

And she says just after competing, she was told by an official that her competition briefs were too short and inappropriate. Well, she was tweeting about this last night. And I'm pleased to say that Olivia is with us now. Morning, Olivia. Good morning. First of all, you feeling a bit tired this morning? We should talk about the competition, first of all. I mean, sore muscles or are you okay?

Yeah, so the competition was going really well and obviously it was my last competition before the selection for the Paralympics. So obviously the comment was to me by surprise and off guard. Obviously I was really happy with my competition. And then I just entered the competition really annoyed after her comment. So talk us through it. You just finished competing and then tell us this female official came up to you.

Just talk us through it. So literally I just finished my competition and was thanking the officials for their help and their support. And I was just about to put my three quarters on, as you finish the competition, obviously it was really hot yesterday. And this official came up to me and was like, can I talk to you? And I was just like, yes, what's the problem? And she just said, I think what you're wearing is very revealing and i think you should consider buying shorts and i didn't know what to say i was probably just left speechless and my first process was just like are you joking and she was just like yeah i think you need to buy

you need to buy another pair of shorts and i just just didn't know what to say. And I just looked at my other teammate and was just like, what? And let's be clear, what you are wearing is what many people will see if you watch athletics on the TV. It's the sort of competition briefs. It's almost like a large bikini bottom is probably the best way to describe it, isn't it? Yeah, literally like high-waisted bikini bottoms. I've worn them for nine years, never had a problem problem and we used to feel comfortable with what we wear we want to be as light as possible when we're competing not having to feel heavy and feel comfortable not being not being

having to be told what we can't wear and what we can wear which is what we should wear we're entitled to wear i know that you've said that women shouldn't be made to feel self-conscious about what they're wearing when they're competing as you say you need to be comfortable to perform at your best do you ever have a sense of feeling self-conscious before this comment? I've never personally felt self-conscious but yesterday really felt made me feel very angry and obviously I've asked the response from Twitter I've had and Instagram that has happened to a lot of other young girls and athletes and

it needs to change. That's why I put the message out there because it made me feel really angry and just very wrong. They can't comment on what we can wear and can't wear. Tell me about some of the comments you've had on social media then. have people been saying to you so i've had very nice reports

that's very nice comments but i've also had very not very nice comments saying like oh um like you you shouldn't like you should just appreciate what the officials do and i'm like yes i do appreciate it but they can't tell us what we can't wear and can wear and it's wrong and then I've had like comments saying like oh you know um about your I don't know and athletes we have good bums and saying like you know they're just jealous of your bum and stuff but like that's not my point I know that you also said that you didn't feel that male athletes would be challenged in this way. No, they wouldn't. And obviously, like swimmers, they wear Speedos and they feel comfortable wearing Speedos.

And so why should athletes get commented about what we're wearing on our bottoms? You know, we're entitled to wear, they're kind of like Speedos as well. But also we have like the, I have also I have my competition cup basketball as well. And the pants I was wearing were my sponsor. So again, I'm entitled to wear them. Did you report this? Did you mention it to anybody yesterday? I know you said that you were in shock, but it was the English Championships. Where are you taking it from here?

I'm just going to take it as far as I can I really want to get the message out there as far as as much as I can and it's wrong what happened and I obviously want to make a change in female sport and that people can't make comments again about that

what we can't wear and can't wear Do you I mean you said other athletes have mentioned this to you have they had similar experiences um yes they have but i don't i think people haven't spoken out about it because they feel afraid and i want people to feel confident and speak out about it because it's wrong what happens and this needs to stop happening to us i I know that another British athlete, the shot putter Amelia Stricker, said that responding to what had been said to you,

saying that officials who made unnecessary comments shouldn't officiate. Do you agree with that? Yes, I do. Very strongly. But then are these volunteers? Are these people who are officiating? I mean, you can't compete without them being there, can you? No, we can't. And them being there, can you? No, we can't.

And they do an amazing job and I really appreciate the support, but they can't tell us, again, they can't make comments on what we wear. They're there to do their job and help us, not by commenting on what we're wearing, regardless. Will it change what you wear at all? I know you've said it's a sponsored provided kit,

but some people do wear shorts, don't they? Some women choose to wear shorts, other people choose to wear the same athletics briefs that you do. Have you thought about what you're going to wear? Well, I'm not going to let it change what I wear because I've worn it for nine years of my career. I've been a professional athlete for nine years and I shouldn't have to change what they tell me what to wear. I'm not going to change that and obviously the Olympics are coming up now

in the next few days and I'm gonna everyone's gonna be wearing the same boots again and yeah so I will not change what I'm gonna wear I feel confident and I feel comfortable why wear and they shouldn't make comments like that again. Joe Pearce has got in touch with us on Twitter saying this seems to be a theme. Too long, not short enough. Maybe we should just concentrate on the sport. We have asked for a statement, obviously from UK Athletics,

because this happened at the English Championships. As yet, they haven't come back to us. But obviously, as soon as we get a statement from them, we will bring it to you. Let's talk a little bit about Tokyo because you're about to find out, aren't you, if you've been selected? Yeah, so today we're finding out. Today!

I know! And obviously yesterday was our last chance to get the qualification. And I was really happy with how the competition went. And yeah, I'm really excited to get a head up to Tokyo now as well. So, I mean, you will have read today in the news reports that people who are going out to Tokyo are getting concerned in the athletes village. And we know that six athletes and two members of staff are having to self-isolate after coming into close contact with somebody. I mean, you're not going to be going till later because you're obviously competing at the Paralympics. So we're talking what, mid-August, I guess, that you're heading out.

But how much does it play on your mind the challenges of COVID and the Olympics and Paralympics? Obviously, seeing the article last night about the six athletes and two members of staff having to isolate, it's really freaked me out. And we've just got to be as careful as we can.'ve been double jabbed so you can still get it but obviously mild mild symptoms but before I head out two weeks before I'm going to go into a quarantine and obviously I'm not going to go to supermarkets avoid seeing people because

I want to keep I don't want to put myself at risk at all. I want to keep myself as safe as possible, head into the games and do everything I can. And obviously when I head to Tokyo, wear the mask, use those band-aids and just doing what I'm doing. And that's what we've got to hope for. And obviously have faith in the PCR test as well when we get on the plane that everyone's done one. And, you know, just fingers crossed it all goes to plan.

I was reading as well on the BBC Sport website earlier today in response to these eight members of the team who are having to self-isolate. One British athlete, Taylor Campbell, who's competing in the Hammer, was saying, I'm on a flight now with GB members and instead of putting us together at the back of the flight, we're mixed up amongst the public.

We asked at the desk to be moved to the other team members on empty rows, but we weren't allowed to change our seats. We've trained hard to get this position. Now risks are basically coming in and it's something out of our control. And I guess that's the worry, isn't it? Because you can only control so much. Yeah, that's disgusting, actually. I hadn't realised that. Obviously, I think as a team, as a GB team, we should be sitting together because we're going to be going together into the Olympic Village, going to the holding camp.

We shouldn't be mixed with other people on the plane. We should be doing everything we can to keep ourselves as safe as possible and leading up to the Games. Well, Olivia, best of luck at the Tokyo Paralympics and good luck with all your training. And obviously, if you do get any response to challenging this and what this official said to you yesterday, do come back and speak to us here on Women's Air. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you very much.

Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. Take care. And as I say, we have asked for a statement. Bye bye. We have asked for a statement from UK Athletics. And as and when we get that, we will bring it to you here. Now Stacey Marshall has inherited her family's farm in a small Appalachian Valley in the US state of Georgia. She'd vaguely known about the history of her family and their land but it wasn't

until she moved into her grandparents house that she realised her family had in fact owned seven enslaved people. Well Stacey the only young woman running a farm in the valley, is trying to make amends for the wrongs of her ancestors. Stacey is with us now live from Georgia, as is Nikichi Tiefa, who is a civil and human rights lawyer and longstanding reparations advocate. She's going to discuss with us whether individuals like Stacey should be paying out of their own pocket or whether this is time for federal reparations. Good morning. A horrible o'clock, I should imagine it is for both of you. So thank you for getting up so early to speak to us. Stacey, let's start by speaking to you. And this came from a story that your grandfather told you, didn't he, when you were struggling to breastfeed?

Yes, it did. Yeah, I can recall it very vividly. I was nursing my firstborn daughter, and obviously that was a very emotional time, but I was at my grandfather's house, and I was struggling to produce milk. And so he, in an effort to comfort me, said that I had inherited that from the women in my family and then began to tell me how generations back there were seven slaves that were purchased and that one of those was a woman named Hester that was bought to feed the family and she had four children. And so that was the first moment in my life where I learned about this family history. And for you, you want to make amends. I'm just wondering

how that manifests itself because reparations within themselves can be controversial but for you what does making amends look like um sure i i think that is something that i feel very strongly in um just repairing uh what has been done and i think think there's the place of reconciliation and what it looks like to do the right thing is, you know, there's this conviction to move forward to do the right thing and then exploring the many different opportunities to do that. So for me, the conversation started really in my small community. After my grandparents passed away and I moved into their home

and then realized that a lot of my neighbors who had grown up in this community and known my family. And our little farming community has had generations of family live close together. And I felt this importance of really engaging specifically our Black family community leaders here to really understand the story that they had experienced in our community. And so about three years ago, I started working with an anthropologist and a team of college students at a local college who just volunteered their time. And we began just recording testimonies and discussing these slave records and bringing it to the community members and hoping that we might be able to find some of the

descendants of Hester's family. And so that journey has been a really beautiful one. It's also been a painful one as well to talk about, to talk and hear. I think both sides, at moments, been uncomfortable. But these conversations have been able to have because I've had such a lifelong relationship with the people in this community. And so that was really first step to make was right here locally. Well, let's bring in Nikichi here, because you for a long time have spoken about the need for reparations. Just talk to us about what Stacey's doing there. Do you feel that's what people should be doing to make amends?

Is that the right course of action? Well, I want to just say right now, Stacey is a part of history in the making. She is part of history in the making. She is part of history in the making. It's not a matter of either or, but plus, as, and. And what I'm speaking of is that I've been working for decades with respect to trying to get a federal bill passed that would have the federal government in the United States study the issue and develop reparation proposals for African Americans to seek to repair

and atone for that period of history. It's not just the federal government, though. It's also state and local governments. It's corporations and industries. It's religious institutions. It's educational institutions. And it's also private estates as well. So it's not a matter of, well, we're just going to go one course. The harms from the enslavement era were multifaceted,

thus the remedies must be multifaceted as well. I was involved just recently with a small city in the United States called Evanston, Illinois, which used tax dollars, creative use of tax dollars from its legal marijuana, legal cannabis industry to fund reparation initiatives in that area. So that was on a local level. Now, Stacey is on an individual private estate level. And I think that is historic. I think that she needs to be applauded for her courage. And I think it needs to recognize that she is, in fact, whether she knows it or not, following some of the dictates of the reparation definitions. And I'm just going to go over them very, very quickly. In the context of black people in the United States,

the quest for reparations essentially constitutes four elements. Number one, the formal acknowledgement that there was a historical wrong. Well, Stacey has done that. She has acknowledged that her family wronged persons. The recognition that the injury continued throughout the centuries and still manifests today. I think she's in the

process of uncovering that now, the continuing impact, the commitment to redress. She has a commitment that she wants to repair, that she wants to heal, but also then the actual compensation in whatever form or forms are agreed upon. And that is essential because it cannot be what Stacey says should be the remedy. She needs to speak to the dissenters. She needs to speak to injured parties. She needs to speak to communities and ask, what do you want? Not what do I, Stacey, the farmer, want for you.

What do you want? Well, that's what I wanted to pick up on because, Stacey, this is a complicated issue and you've touched on it because you don't want to make this look like you're relieving the guilt of a white woman. This is about actually making a difference to people who've been harmed. And I also wonder what it is like being in Georgia. I mean, you're in the southern states of the US. It's prime Trump country. I can imagine many people are not necessarily backing your viewpoint. Yeah, I've had definitely mixed responses. I'm going to put that too.

And I would say that overwhelmingly what has been surprising to me is the number of people coming forward that are holding their own family history and feeling the weightiness of that and the conviction of wanting also to be part of this time that we're in in our country of, I mean, I've had multitudes of people, even globally, I've had people in South Africa, people in Brazil reaching out and divulging their families' history with enslaving people. And I think that very much there are many people that really want to make a difference. But this is not just an external, what do we do? This is also an internal process. So I think for me, specifically living in this area, there is a there's definitely kind of an association of you don't talk about these things because you don't want to dishonor your family. And so since we were small, we were told to kind of not talk about these things outside of the family. And if you do, then you dishonor the family. And if you do, then you dishonor the family. And I have had a person that sent me a

message that claims to be a distant relative that said that I had dishonored my family's name, our family's name on our national holiday, because the New York Times article came out on July 4th. And I think that, you know, that was really hard because I don't feel like I'm dishonoring my family's name. What I what I feel like I'm doing is feel like I'm actually honoring my family by telling the truth because I was raised to be honest. And so to tell the truth is actually to do the right thing is actually honoring but also but also I want to honor the descendants of Hester like that's very important to me as well but we also have to be realistic and maybe you want to come in on this Nikichi that reparations

are not popular amongst Americans I mean I was I was looking this morning at a poll back in 2019 showed only 29% of Americans say that the government should pay cash reparations, clearly a lot higher amongst black Americans, but only 15% of white Americans thinking that that's the right way forward. So I just want to say there are many different polls out there. But what is the beautiful about the situation? The polls are going up and up and up. I mean, it is just amazing how far we have come in the past 40 years that i've been working on

this issue where you didn't even want to mouth the word reparations and now it's definitely entered the mainstream we're talking about an issue whose time has come we're talking about a reckoning that is long, long, you know, past due. And when one of the things Stacey said kind of struck me, that generationally, there's been an issue in their family in terms of being able to nurse their children. We also need to look at the generational trauma on the other side. The other side. What about her own children? So that harm is there on both sides and that remedy and that healing must be there as well. And I think more and more people are beginning to see

that there cannot be true racial healing until we acknowledge that past and set about the task of rectifying the future. Nikichi, thank you so much for joining us this morning. That's Nikiti Taifa, who is a civil and human rights lawyer. We also heard there from Stacey Marshall, who is a farmer in the US state of Georgia. Lots of you getting in touch with us this morning

about what so-called Freedom Day, as it's been dubbed by the tabloids, means to you today. Obviously, only if you're in England, because I appreciate the rules are different in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Andrea has texted us from Devon saying, morning, currently self-isolating. So to hear people, so-called experts, such as Neil Ferguson, giving advice when he broke the rules makes me furious.

In my view, he lost the right to advise us when he gave the public the wrong message. Another one here, a tweet which has come in, says, makes me glad I live in Scotland. Can't see how removing all restrictions is anything other than utterly reckless. Following the money now, not science. Suppose we see the consequences in a few weeks, but meantime, good luck to all of those

who wish to remain a bit more cautious. And another one here, today is the reverse of Freedom Day for me. I wish to stay safe and not catch COVID to avoid all the potential complications. As mask wearing has already become spotty, transport, museums, shops, etc. are all now off my list.

I am in profound disagreement with the government's approach and much prefer the approach adopted in Scotland and Wales. Masks reduce individual freedom in the way as not smoking in pubs and restaurants do. Keep your thoughts coming today on if anything is changing for you on this so-called Freedom Day

or actually if nothing changes for you. We're on 84844 on the text or you can get in touch on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, Maria Callas is one of the most famous opera singers. She had a fiery relationship with Aristotle Onassis who broke her heart when he left her to marry Jacqueline Kennedy but very little is known about the woman behind the diva. She was brought up in New York and Greece by an emotionally abusive mother who forced her to sing. Well, despite being admired by Hollywood stars and royalty, she fought sexism to rise to the top, but never had a happy private life. Lindsay Spence's

new book, Cast a Diva, draws on previously unseen documents to reveal her tragic story. I was given access to about three or four large American archives, and a lot of the letters were never published before, or there had only been snippets. So we didn't really know the context of the letters. And just reading them and seeing copies of her medical reports, it just shed new light on who Maria really was and what she was going through. And really just her life as a woman.

And that's what stood out for me. And I think that's more important than knowing about Maria the artist, because we all know who Callas is but we don't really know who Maria is. Before Maria was born her mother lost a little boy and she went to fortune tellers and played the Ouija board and went to an astrologer. And all of them said, if you conceive a child, it will be your son reincarnated. And when Maria was born in New York, her mother did not want her at all. She thought she would have another son. But unfortunately, it was a girl and she wouldn't even look at her.

Her mother really didn't pay much attention to her, but one day she heard Maria singing and it was the era of Shirley Temple and Deanna Durbin and the Child Stars and she thought, I can exploit my child and we will get rich off the back of my child's voice. So really, that's how Maria Callas' talents were discovered. I think the programme was set not by myself in life, in the very beginning. It was set by my family, my mother mainly,

who was commanding the family then. The program was that, of course, I should become a singer, I should become an artist in any case. Usually what parents say is, well, I sacrificed myself for you, but you will do what I was supposed to do in life. I suppose I was a solitary girl also, shall we say, and I loved music. Maria Callas moved from New York to Greece. She was almost 14 years old and she was really just a pawn in her mother's plans.

Her mother wanted to leave her father and she decided to use Maria as an excuse. She could go to Athens and Maria could study music. So Maria sort of always carried this guilt with her that she had to, you know, uproot her family and her father was so far away. But her mother had no intentions of supporting her family. Her father didn't really care either. He didn't send any money. So her mother decided to basically exploit her oldest daughter, Jackie. She found a rich man for Jackie and Jackie became his mistress and that's really what paid the rent. And Maria was obviously able to go off and sing. She didn't have to worry too much. I started very early. My teacher, who was Elvira de Hidalgo, started very

early. I think indeed lots of great singers started very early, especially women. So I used to go to the conservatoire 10 o'clock in the morning and I used to go to the conservatoire, 10 o'clock in the morning, and I used to leave with the last pupil. Even Didalgo was quite amazed because she was asking me frequently, why do you stay here? My answer was that even with the least talented pupil, you can learn something because even from the least talented pupil, he can teach you something that you, mostly talented, might not be able to do. But as she grew a bit older and the war happened and the soldiers came to Athens, the German soldiers and the Italians, her mother thought Maria could go with the soldiers and that would also earn money. But Maria learned quite quickly if she cried and told them a soft story

and sang, they left her alone. So really, during those years, it was all about survival for Maria. And she carried that resentment, I think, all throughout her life. And finally, when Maria cut all contact around 1950, her mother said, well, you know, this is very shameful, Maria, but I hope you get cancer of the throat and you can no longer sing. So in 1947, Maria Callas went to Verona to sing in the festival. And she met Battista Meneghini at a restaurant. And she always thought, you know, God sent them to her. She says, because I was so unhappy, God sent Battista to me. But that wasn't true. He learned that there was this really gifted soprano coming from New York for the festival. And, you know, he was a businessman and he was always looking for

a singer to exploit. And Callas really just fit at the bill. She arrived with very little money, a cardboard suitcase. She pretended her belongings had been stolen because she was so embarrassed and she had no money to go home. And she really pinned herself to Meneghini. But it's quite sad because she really cares for him and she loves him and she's so grateful to him. And certainly at the beginning, when they were only living together and she was very embarrassed about this, you know, because it was the 1940s and it was quite scandalous. He was sort of a reminder of her place that, you know, she needs him. And then whenever they got married, she altered her appearance a lot for him he liked quite heavy disheveled women and she really morphed herself into that for maybe two or three years he would say quite derogatory things about her appearance

and then when she became very famous he was leaking things to the press as if you know to keep her in line so really she had nobody looking after her best interest he would force her into contracts and really just sell her to the highest bidder regardless if she wanted to sing or not or even if her health was up to it you know she'd always quite delegate health he treats her horribly he says you're just a dog you have no money and when somebody tells you that enough and she's had it all throughout her life with her mother, you're just a dog, you have no money. And when somebody tells you that enough, and she's had it all throughout her life with her mother especially, you know, you start to believe that about yourself. Even when she was La Divina, the great celebrity, she was always very submissive to Meneghini until, of course, Onassis came along in 1959. Before you sing a phrase,

you must always prepare it in your face and give it to the public. Have it read in your mind. In other words, you think of the phrase, you prepare it on your face, and then you actually perform it. That is the beauty of the bel canto. People think of Maria Callas as this glamorous diva,

but she wasn't always that way. People always mocked her for her appearance. And it's quite sad because they would say, oh, why are you so fat? Or they would laugh, you know, at her long hair and her sensible clothings. But in 1953, when she realized her marriage was more or less over to Meneghini, she decided to lose weight for herself and for her health and also to dress better after she did that and she changed herself into La Divina her fame really soared and she reinvented the opera world as well where it's you know a glamorous slim diva rather than you know the heavy woman singing to lose weight Meneghini invented the rumor that she swallowed worms which isn't true at all it's quite disgusting

she went to a famous clinic in Switzerland and was getting iodine injected straight into her thyroid. And obviously that gave her an overactive thyroid and she lost like 10 stone in the end, but it wasn't good for her health. And I believe she really suffered for that. The voice was always there and the talent was always there, but she no longer had the stamina to do these full-length operas and then recover as quickly. In 1957, Maria Callas was on the verge of a nervous breakdown and she went to Venice and she met Aristotle Onassis on the beach and he had been following her for quite a while. He liked to collect these really famous, exciting women to show off his playthings.

But she didn't really think too much of him. She was quite unnerved by his attention and she thought he was ugly and he was very, very short. She was like 5'10". And she said to him when they danced, you know, Mr. Onassis, you're not self-conscious dancing, you know, with such a tall woman. And he says, oh, no, when I dance with you, I feel about about 10 feet tall so she was quite flattered in the end with the attention and then about a year later you know when she was performing he went to her concert he went to the opera in 1959 when she was singing in Medea in London he actually bought loads of tickets on the black market and brought all of his famous friends and the churchills and whatnot and by then her marriage to meneghini was over she had asked for her freedom and in italy divorce

was illegal but she wanted to live apart and you know be responsible for her career and her own money and meneghini says full control or nothing so he wouldn't let her career and her own money. And Meneghini says, full control or nothing. So he wouldn't let her go. And he wanted more money. He had actually swindled her out of almost all of her fortune. That's what she discovered in 1959 as well. And she wrote to him and said, I can't afford to give you any more money. I have no money.

And, you know, as the years wore on, it just became a game to Meneghini. He just wouldn't sign any papers. And then Onassis had lost interest. Onassis was actually with Jackie shortly after JFK's assassination. So their friendship began quite early on before he married her. But he never told Maria what was happening. And he was with her up until a few

weeks before he signed the marriage contract with Jackie. You know she had to find out through the newspapers and through gossip that he was going to marry the president's widow and I don't think she ever really got over that humiliation or that level of betrayal after nine years together that he didn't even have the decency to tell her. I feel music must calm the nerves, must help us dream and see or hope to see a new lovely world, not our world. We don't care to see our world put on the stage. Lindsay Spence there talking about her new book, Cast a Diva, about the opera singer Maria Callas. Now, a charity that provides sexual and reproductive support to disadvantaged women around the world

is threatening legal action against the UK government over its decision to cut the international aid budget from 0.7 to 0.5% of gross national income. That's a reduction of around £4 billion a year. Well, we can speak to Mina Barling, who is Director for External Relations at the International Planned Parenthood Foundation. Hello there, Mina. Hi, how are you? Very well, thank you. And thank you for joining us. Just explain to us, first of all, why you believe that the government's decision to reduce the aid bill is illegal. Certainly. So the only way that the government can lawfully change the 0.7% to the 0.5% is to amend the Act that it's enshrined in,

and that's the International Development Act. To do this, it requires completing all stages of the legislative process, so both through the House of Parliament, through both houses, and then obtaining royal assent. And to this point, you know, a simple vote in the House of Commons is simply not enough, and therefore the decision remains unlawful. And as you would appreciate, it also sets a precedent for the government to override the law, which we feel is alarming and dangerous, especially for the people that will be impacted. Well, as you say, this was voted on by MPs last Tuesday. It was passed by 35 votes. Let me read you a statement which has come from the government. It says the government has provided a clear measure on returning to spending of 0.7% of GNI

on official development assistance, and members of Parliament voted clearly to approve this approach. It says, we are acting in line with the International Development Act 2015, which explicitly envisages that there may be circumstances where the 0.7 target is not met. We remain a world-leading aid donor and we will spend more than £10 billion this year to fight poverty, tackle climate change and improve global health. So the government clearly saying there that within that 2015 Act is the ability to say this can move without there having to be the changes you're suggesting. So you may also know that they introduced two new rules within the statement that went to Parliament. Those rules have never been reached in the last two decades. But back to my earlier point, that is not how you amend or

change legislation. We have been, you know, working very closely on this for some time since we heard about the plans to slash the UK aid budget and there was obviously a lot of dialogue then about the lawfulness of that. What happened in the house is just another example of this sort of precedent that we're seeing and because of these unlawful cuts these will have a catastrophic impact on millions of women and girls and marginalised people all across the world and thousands of lives will be lost because of these sorts of unlawful processes we're currently seeing.

Just to be clear, you believe it's unlawful. The government is saying they don't believe it's unlawful. But just explain, because I know that the judicial review you're seeking relates to a specific project which won't be funded. Tell us more about that programme. Certainly. So we have a number of programmes that FCDO have supported. As you know, they were one of the most critical donors for sexual reproductive health and rights. The project that we're seeking a review for the decision on is the Access Project.

So we now understand there's a $14.2 million loss. Basically, all of the promises that we have made to various communities we will no longer deliver on. And the action was really about supporting groups in Lebanon, Mozambique, Nepal, Uganda. So this is a very clear decision that has been made by the government because of the cuts on a program already committed and would have supported those efforts until 2023. So that's the situation. I mean, the challenge here is, and I'm looking at a table on the BBC website about how UK spending on aid compares to other nations.

And the UK was obviously at 0.7. Only Germany spending more at 0.73. But France, Japan, Canada, Italy, the US spending significantly less. I mean, Italy, 0.22%, the US, 0.17%. When we are living in the times we are in the middle of a global pandemic, isn't it reasonable

that things have to change, things have to move? And the Chancellor, Rishi Sunak, has been very clear, this is not forever. This is until our funds are in a better position and then it will be restored. I agree. Things do have to change, which is why every other government has stood up. We've learnt how important that cooperation is during the COVID pandemic.

I would sort of question some of the way that the framing of those figures are. So for this year, the US is the world's largest donor of foreign aid with a $62.7 billion spend. But it would do because it's got a bigger gross income, hasn't it? National income. So it would give more money. But if we're talking on percentage terms. So I'll come to that point in a moment.

But to that earlier point, the UK will now be spending about 10.9 billion. So there's a huge, there's a chasm between the leadership from different countries. To the points on percentages, I would wonder why with the data that you're looking at, why Denmark isn't there, 0.73, Luxembourg, 1.02, Norway, 1.11 and Sweden, let's say 1.14. So I think given the exceptional circumstances we are in, a race to the bottom is not the way forward. It's also electorally sensitive, this issue, isn't it? As I said before, the Chancellor says that it will return to 0.7 when it's on a sustainable basis and the UK is not borrowing day-to-day for spending

and the underlying debt is falling. But, I mean, I'm looking here at a YouGov poll in November of last year and it suggested that two-thirds of people in Britain are in favour of reducing the foreign aid bill. So this is popular amongst the electorate. So those figures are changing, we are actually seeing more support, I think, especially in the wake of COVID and how people understand themselves in the world. And I think for most people in this country, they don't want to see the impact of these sort of changes. They don't want to see the impact of, you know, seven

women having unintended pregnancies, the millions of unsafe abortions we'll see out of this. I would also just add that this is a life and death decision that we're watching. And, you know, the framing on this again, are we talking about spending borrowed money on the increase in the defence budget, for example? If this fails, this legal challenge, what next briefly, if you would? Certainly. So we are proceeding with all the goodwill. We do have a good success. We feel we have a good chance of success. We don't take this decision lightly. And if it did fail, we would certainly be seeking to appeal that decision. Mina, thank you for your time this morning. Mina Barling there, who is Director for External Relations at the International Planned Parenthood Foundation. Now, from today, we're being told, aren't we, to gradually return to the office. So, how are you feeling about that? Are you looking forward to dusting off your suits and your power heels? Or are you going to channel the casual trends that many of us have adopted over the last 18 months? We can speak to style coach Lulu Story, who's here with me in the studio. Good to have you. We're going to be talking about hybrid wardrobes that many people are adopting now as we head back into the office.

And also with us is fashion historian Lucy Adlington, who's the author of A Stitch in Time, to talk about the challenges women have traditionally faced with their work, where you're trying to balance what being professional, comfortable, looking feminine. It's a minefield. So, Lucy, good morning to you, too. Hello, good morning to you too hello good morning now Lulu what would you say is the best approach if you're going back to the office because let's be honest most people have kind of had a zoom outfit where we've had a nice top haven't we and tracksuit

bottoms or maybe pajama bottoms underneath what what's the sort of thing that is going to be acceptable I guess in the office from now on well I think the thing for me that I am really passionate about is that as women we allow ourselves a little bit of time to think about our clothing and how we feel in it. I'm really really interested in the psychological impact that clothing has on our well-being, our mindset, how we feel about our bodies and I think as we go back into the office we are going to start feeling maybe a bit of social anxiety or potentially a little bit of awareness of our our bodies again our bodies might have changed in lockdown you know a lot of people have either gone crazy into the fitness or have quite understandably you know been in a more sedentary

life so the first thing I would say is don't ignore the situation. You know, take a little bit of moment and allow yourself that time to look what's in your wardrobe and think about what you want to see in the mirror. It's really, really good. One of my little lovely tips that I use a lot is to find yourself an anchor word that you want to step back into the office with. So whether that is to feel assured, but a kind of quiet sense of assuredness, or whether that is to feel powerful, maybe you want to have a more bolder, you know, maybe there is a kind of that peacock that's wanting to come out a little bit more, you know, it's all been hidden so much. So stop, take a moment and just think, what is that kind of emotion that I want

to project as I step through those doors? Lucy, I guess also there's an element of it depends where you work. I mean, I look around the BBC and it's absolutely acceptable in media organisations to come in in a grotty T-shirt and jeans for some people and nobody would batter an eyelid at it. But if you walked into a law firm like that, I'm guessing you'd probably be sacked. So are there different rules for different places? is the short answer the long answer would take several weeks and in between in between it's extraordinary how our clothes are policed and how this has been going on through history and a big thumbs up by the way to everything that Lulu is saying I mean it's it's all about balancing where you work

and the kind of work you do. So my work as a dress historian, I can be wearing one day a 19th century crinoline, or I can be wearing 1980s fitness gear. So for me, my work is bound up with clothes, but not what I actually wear every day. And to be honest, I'm freelance. So maybe like the BBC workers, although I choose my clothes bound up with clothes but not what I actually wear every day and to be honest I'm freelance so maybe

like the BBC workers although I choose my clothes and I like particular colors and styles I'm not bound by those rules but the rules have been there but I've got to say historically the garment that most women would associate with work historically is an apron and so there was that sense that your work clothes for men and women they were just your everyday clothes. And then for women, you'd bung an apron over the top. And this actually only starts to change with the exception of occupational clothes when we start working in offices. So it's really interesting that you're flagging up. It's about office work because women always work, whether it's paid or unpaid. And that's really we've got to thank the new women of the late Victorian age for that,

saying we want to wear suits, we want to wear more masculine clothes. And they start entering more so-called male spaces in secretarial and communication roles. And there's a huge debate about what are women going to wear in the office? Because we don't want to look too masculine. A man complained that women wearing suits

would be able to breathe too freely. And we don't want to look too masculine. A man complained that women wearing suits would be able to breathe too freely. And we don't want that. So we have a debate going on. Yeah, I think one of the things that's really interesting is this acceptance of our femininity. And femininity not being this weakness that we bring to the office. You know, I am a big champion of Mary Portis and how she talks so much about the power that women can bring in our empathy and our vulnerability so one of the things when I'm working with clients is almost finding how we can bring in that touch of femininity whether that is through texture in our clothes

whether that is through how we play with color fluidity of fabrics I think is something that we'll really see going forward that kind of more relaxed silhouette but it still feels there's a sharpness to it to the shape but the fabric itself is softer that's a really good way for you to feel more put together without feeling too kind of restrained but it is going to be weird isn't it for many people who have just been wearing comfy clothes at home to suddenly put on work wear. And I guess there's a fine line, isn't there, between being too casual and not being taken seriously enough, but actually saying, do I want to wear a suit anymore? Maybe I'm going to wear something different.

I mean, this is my comfort zone. I love smart casual. This is the bit that really gets me excited when I help clients. And it is as simple as adding a piece of smart and a piece of casual you know that when you're getting dressed think about that have you got items in your wardrobe that feel really really smart what would be the opposite of that how could you casualize it tone it down and really having that kind of play with what's already in there and a great little tip would be to not just think about what you want to clear but actually

create yourself a mini capsule at the moment pull out all your favorite pieces and those smart ones too the ones that pre-pandemic I was like living in suit I loved my magenta suit but now I am pairing that magenta jacket with these you know a beautiful relaxed kind of cream jogger pant it still looks tailored but the waistband's elastic. You know, I can still have that. We all need that. I know that bit of comfort. So it's really about pairing those two pieces together, that kind of relax, that glamour, the opposites really work. And Lucy, is it important to have different clothes for being at home and being at work? So we have that line, if you like where we can

differentiate in our own minds again hard for me to say as a freelancer because my work is so fluid i think historically women have liked some sort of demarcation whether it's taking your apron off at the end of the day or you hear lovely anecdotes in the past of women rolling down hot stockings and wiggling out of elastic girdles. I definitely think there is a sense of being professional, putting a professional hat on. And for me, I wish it was more a case of we valued the person at work for how they worked and not how they looked. But what we choose to wear, as Lulu is saying, it's so important for us. And one thing I would say still with office work we still have this impossible to achieve

balance of being so-called feminine whatever that may mean to a person and being seen as too soft and too frivolous and perhaps veering the other way and being seen as too hard to not having flair not having chance to express yourself the other having clothes that fit for purpose. Still a fight to have trousers. Still a fight to have pockets. So it's partly a sensual thing and an individual thing. And some of it is still bang on sexism and policing women's workwear. The other angle I'd love to bring in here, Chloe,

is that really, for me, it's that psychological moment that we need. We need the signalling of the change in our environment. You know, it's not just about what other people are seeing and what we're projecting. We need to be able to say to ourselves, right, it's time for work. Here I go. I'm in that head space. I'm in that zone. I think as women, we think we have to think our way out of things all the time and get yourself into that zone. And actually for me, clothes can just mark, they kind of set the tone. they send you down that

trajectory and go and this is where we're going so if you're finding that your confidence is feeling a bit knocked if you're putting on an outfit that makes you feel confident then even if you're not feeling inside you will follow the path you'll kind of go with the flow so I would really encourage people if they're in that hybrid workspace and they're sometimes at home now and sometimes in the office, get yourself dressed for work. Get yourself in that place. I mean, I know for me when I was, I'm a mum, when I was a young mum, I had to get myself out of that mum mode. And sometimes I was working at home and, you know, doing all the mum stuff at home. And actually for me, just getting changed, even if it's something as simple as sitting at your desk

and putting your shoes on, you know, could really, really... Rather than your slippers. Rather than your slippers. You'd be amazed at the kind of impact it can have. It's funny you say that because I can guarantee

when I pick my daughter up from school today, she'll say, Mummy, have you been at work? Because of what I'm wearing. Yes. Also, briefly, before we wrap up,

rental clothes, that's a big thing, isn't it? Love, love, love. Big no from me. Really? briefly before we before we wrap up rental clothes that's a big thing isn't it at the moment big no from me big no from me oh no rubbish boo her off the stage i i don't know i mean it's problematic you know i mean hurrah for rental businesses and it's great to have access to lots of different clothes but i i just think there are there are implications but that's a whole new topic i would like to just say that I love everything that Lulu's saying about confidence, about showing your role, but can we also break rules?

I sometimes just put an evening gown on to flounce around at work just for the fun of it, to break out of that sense of what your role is. So I think experiment and play a lot more, hopefully, at work. And that ties in with the psychology of what do you need when you step into the workplace? Do you need to be playful a bit more? Do you need to feel like that rebel is all being a bit safe? You know, step in with that emotion and you will see amazing things happen for you. Thank you both so much for joining us. Really grateful to you today. Style coach there, Lulu Story and also fashion historian Lucy Adlington. So many of you getting in touch with us with your ideas about whether this is so-called Freedom Day.

Had a message here from Sally saying, it is Freedom Day. Freedom to behave in a responsible and caring way without having to be told to do this by law. Come on, people, take responsibility for your own actions. Karina says, Freedom Day just pushes back being able to go to the cinema or the theatre even further for me. I can't imagine going to a performance indoors with no restrictions at this

point, with infections, hospitalisations and deaths from COVID-19 all rising sharply. And Antonia in London says, I find the term Freedom Day deeply offensive. This day is not feeling like a cause for celebration for so many people. In fact, quite the opposite. I feel trepidation about going into work today, even though I have been regularly out at work as normal since March 2020. Thank you for all of your messages coming into us here on Woman's Ass. So many more than I can read, to be honest.

Do keep them coming in and thank you for your company today. We'll be back at the same time again tomorrow. Hello there, I'm Simon Armitage. I'm just heading down the garden path, so this might be a good moment to tell you about the new series of my Radio 4 podcast, The Poet Laureate Has Gone to His Shed. This shed, actually. And the shed's been quite a lonely place this past year

for fairly obvious reasons, so it's great to be able to plump up the plastic cushions, set up an extra fold-away chair, and natter about life and creativity with talented and thoughtful people. Guests include the Yorkshire Shepherdess, Amanda Owen, broadcaster, DJ and gardener, Joe Wiley, and Smith's guitarist Johnny Marr.

Put your ear to one of the many knot holes in the wall by searching for The Poet Laureate Has Gone to His Shed on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.