Woman's Hour - Marian Keyes, Juliet open letter, Swiss climate victory

Episode Date: April 12, 2024

Irish author Marian Keyes writes funny, clever novels about life including: Rachel’s Holiday, Anybody out There, Grown Ups, Angels. She covers issues such as addiction, break-ups, baby loss, anxiety, depression and love, with women at the heart. We all make mistakes, but when do we stop making the same one over and over again? This is the question at the heart of Marian’s latest novel: My Favourite Mistake. She joins Anita Rani to discuss that, mistakes, perimenopause and ‘feathery strokers’.In a landmark case, the European Court of Human Rights ruled that Switzerland was violating the human rights of its citizens by inadequate action on climate change. A group of more than 2,000 older Swiss women launched the case nine years ago, calling for better protection of women's health from the effects of climate change. The Court's ruling is binding and can trickle down to influence the law in 46 countries in Europe. Anita talks to one of the senior women who brought the case, Elisabeth Stern, and the group's lawyer, Jessica Simor. Almost 30 years ago, Nicole Brown and her friend Ron Goldman were stabbed to death in Los Angeles. The prime suspect was OJ Simpson, Nicole’s ex-husband and a well-known NFL player turned actor. What followed remains one of the most famous murder trials in history, televised and watched by millions. He was acquitted of the murders of Nicole and Ron. He did plead no contest to charges of ‘spousal battery’ – what we now call domestic violence. And he was later found liable for the deaths in a separate civil case. OJ Simpson died on Wednesday at the age of 76. To talk about the impact his trial had on the perception of violence against women in the US is Sarah Baxter, Director of the Marie Colvin Center for International Reporting and former Deputy Editor of The Sunday Times. This week, it was announced that 883 actors, writers, comedians and creatives had signed an open letter in support of Francesca Amewudah-Rivers, the star in a new production of Romeo & Juliet, due to run in London's West End next month. The open letter came after a statement was published by the Jamie Lloyd Company, "Following the announcement of our Romeo & Juliet cast, there has been a barrage of deplorable racial abuse online directed towards a member of our company..." It was co-authored by actors Susan Wokoma and writer Somalia Nonyé Seaton and Susan joins Anita to talk about the issues.On 6 April 1999, Mamma Mia! opened in the West End. As the show celebrates its 25th anniversary, Woman's Hour celebrates the music of one of the most popular and successful musicals of all time. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Duncan Hannant

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. What a powerful line-up of women I've got for you today, of women prepared to speak their minds and stand up for what they believe in. Like the Swiss climate protesters, a group of older women, average age 73, who this week won a landmark case at the European Court of Human Rights

that Switzerland was violating their human rights by its inaction on climate change. A huge victory for them after nine years and we'll hear the details of what this means and from one of the women later in the programme. But this morning, I'd also like to hear from you about your own victories, big or small. Doesn't have to be a landmark court case, could be as simple as getting the kids to eat their breakfast, or my little win this morning, smooth eyeliner application at 5.30am. Thank you very much. Maybe it's a bonus

half hour in bed, a promotion at work, a top you've had your eye on going into the sale. Not forgetting your mother's birthday. Happy birthday, mum. So this morning, I'd like to hear your big victories or little wins. Get in touch with the programme in the usual way. Text number 84844. You can email me via our website or you can WhatsApp me. You can even drop me a voice note 03700 100 444. Also on the programme, Marian Keyes is here to tell us about her new novel. She's actually here here so I'm going to say good morning to you. Good morning, hi. Do you have a little win? A little win?

I didn't put on eyeliner. That was my little win this morning because I didn't feel I had it in me. Yeah, I gave myself the gift of not doing it. Wonderful. And also you don't need it. Oh, I prefer it. I look better with it. But still. Excellent. So Marianne Keyes is here. We'll be chatting to her about her new novel shortly. And you may have heard that OJ Simpson has died from cancer, but we'll be discussing on the programme how his trial for the murder of his former wife, Nicole Brown, and her friend, Ron Goldman, in 1994 changed perceptions of domestic violence in the United States. So keep your thoughts coming in on anything you hear in the programme, plus your little wins or big victories to 84844. But first, when it comes to parts in plays or film or TV dramas, who is allowed to play the roles?

In theory, anyone, right? It's drama. But when it was announced that Francesca Amawuda-Rivers would star as Juliet in the new production of Romeo and Juliet opposite Tom Holland in the West End, the racist floodgates opened. Not the first time some people have a problem with a black woman in a role. However, this time in response, 883 actors, writers, comedians and creatives have signed an open letter in support of Francesca. This open letter came after a statement last Friday published by the Jamie Lloyd Company, which said, following the announcement of our Romeo and Juliet cast, there's been a barrage of deplorable

racial abuse online directed towards a member of our company. Bullying and harassment have no place online in our industry or in our wider communities. Our rehearsal room is full of joy compassion and kindness. Well the open letter was co-authored by actors Susan Wakoma and writer Somalia Seaton. It read too many times black performers, particularly black actresses, are left on their own to face the storm of online abuse after committing the audacious crime of simply booking a job. Many who signed are women of colour in the industry, including Marianne Jean-Baptiste, Lashana Lynch and Sheila Atim,

as well as those recently in the Woman's Hour studio, Vivian Apara and Ambika Maud. Well, I'm joined by co-author of the letter, Susan Wacoma, in our studio. She's best known for her roles as Edith in Enola Holmes and Cynthia in Michaela Cole's Chewing Gum. She made her film debut in Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie's Half Yellow Sun and one of my favourites as Sergeant Mabel Wisbeck in A Year of the Rabbit. Susan, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you for having me, Anita. Thank you.

So why did you decide to write this letter? To be perfectly honest with you, I was, alongside many people, thrilled for Francesca. I've met Francesca once, an amazing actress, an amazing musician, a really young, bright star. And you get behind these announcements. And so, like many people, sent my congratulations and then didn't think anything of it. And then I saw the statement from Jamie Lloyd Company. And then that's when I read The Abuse, which is online, freely to read.

And to be perfectly honest, like many other performers, because we talk, I was really triggered and I was so upset. And we all understand that Francesca, and when it's happened to us, is that you read that stuff and you still have to go to work. So knowing that Francesca is in the rehearsal room at the moment trying to formulate this performance with her colleagues, and I and Somalia, who's a dear friend of mine, we just felt the deep need to reach out to her and be loud and that the love and solidarity towards her has to be louder than the abuse.

And so we thought about doing an open letter, something that's been done many times before. And we thought they wanted it to be predominantly black actresses because there's a certain level of visibility that comes with being an actor. And so we just wanted people who understood not just the racist abuse, but the misogyny. an intersection of that which then particularly with a role like Juliet is who is seen as somebody who could be playing a young lover in in a play which is just audacious that there's any kind of remit to that and so we wanted to centre Francesca we wanted to centre other black actresses who had been triggered by this and just say that we see you we're with you and we love you. In your open letter, you say that the online abuse was a too familiar story that many of us visible black dark skinned performers have experienced. The racist and misogynistic abuse directed at such a sweet soul has been too much to bear. You weren't surprised? No, not even remotely. I think that there's always this, I have this fear whenever I see any black performer when they're announced in anything that's big of this happening.

And I think the first time that I witnessed it online was when Leslie Jones, who was on SNL, was announced as part of the cast of Ghostbusters. Everybody had like an issue with it because it's all women, whatever. But I saw in real time, because I used to ask when I used to be on Twitter, I saw it in real time, the abuse that she got. And it's disproportionate, it makes no sense. And it was predominantly targeted at her, and it was racial, and it was sexist. And, and ever since then, I think for me, and a lot of performers, it's logged in our heads of, yeah, we want to back you when you get these announcements, but we're so scared. And if we have to do the extra work of being careful and watchful and mindful, we need our employers to do that. We need our agents to be clear about what they have in place to look after her and make sure that she can give an amazing performance, which we know she will.

But it doesn't need to be on top of everything else. You have a very successful career. And AIM Check, some of the things that you've been in and the list is much longer than that and you're going to go on to have a huge career ahead of you because you're so talented and gifted but tell us how much it takes for you to be able to go out there and perform and some of the the backlash that you've had and your own experience yeah i mean i um i did a show with a big streamer a few years ago, very excited by it. I had a really good time making it. And then about a month after it launched, just racist abuse under pictures on my Instagram,

the M word, some other like there was, so it's hard to talk about. There was a, there was, yeah, awful, awful things that were on there. You don't have, no, no, that's all right. No, I'm not,

I'm also not going to repeat it as well, but there was a rape threat as well. And so I went to the police because that's what you do. And it was me and another actor in the show who's a South Asian actress. And we went to the police and I, you know, the initiative was, my agency were amazing and supportive.

And I went to one of the producers of this streamer and I said, look, we are facing this abuse. And we got on the phone and we talked about it. And there was talk of like a statement. There was talk of, because what happens is, especially when you're doing, you know, the Romeo and Juliet is different, it's a play. But this is a TV show. because what happens is especially when you're doing you know the Romeo and Juliet is different it's a play but this is a tv show and what happens a lot when you're an actor is that you're given things called assets so these are things to post

online to promote the show at this time all that stuff and um and so if they want you to engage on social media I feel like there should at least be a way that you are able to report this to meta or whoever um that doesn't necessarily mean that you're wait you're up at all hours doing it yourself so that's the conversation that was started because that's another thing that you have to do yes exactly it's another thing on top of like the work yeah and and so there was all these big promises made and then i never heard from the streamer again ever to this day and then that police investigation carried on for months afterwards. And that was, I was left to deal with that.

So you're being punished again. Yeah. And so, listen, I have an amazing support system and what we've done with the letter is what happened to me privately with a lot of my friends.

And, and so I was able to work through that. But it, what, it takes chunks out of you and it makes you scared. And there's a quote by Toni Morrison where she says that racism is a distraction. It's a distraction from your work and it does distract you and it does affect the choices you make because you're scared of being visible. It affects you.

It affects your choices, but also mental health. Oh, gosh. And that's what this petition is asking for is that what are the things in place because this is the world we live in we want to believe that it's not everyone and it's a very loud minority but they're there and they are loud and it affects you so what are the things in place if we have to think about all the different steps before we take a job our employers must do the same and you mentioned in the letter misogynoir because when the example you gave of the female cast of um ghostbusters but it was uh the black actress

that got the brunt of it yeah yeah and and that is something that's also why we wanted the signatories to be predominantly black women um because it's it's a special it's a special level of depravity that can come about from that and um and and knowing that other people get it because you you're often gaslit you're often sort of made to think it's not a big deal just skirt over it it's fine but actually it's serious but also it's you know joy is a form of resistance and this isn't to say like we're just having a good time and we're just you know no matter what happens to us it's it's naming the pain so that you can heal from it because you have to name it first and then going we are all behind you and centering francesca and centering us because if other people

won't we must how important is the solidarity it's you can't and the public show of it yeah i mean yes so it's difficult isn't it because i think that a lot of the traction that's happened with the letter is as a result of having a big star like tom holland um that's not lost on us um would it have had this much traction if it was somebody else or another show? Probably not. But it's all about the loudness of solidarity. So the fact that it's reached so many people, we have Viola Davis post about it as well,

and lots of older generation actors, which I think is important to know that as a young actor, you can sometimes feel like you're battling it all on your own. But to know you're from something, you come from a history, you come from a lineage, I think is important. And I really hope that Fran feels it. Just to say that the reason you're here talking to us on Woman's Hour is because of the power of the names on that letter. Yeah. Not because of Tom Holland.

Exactly. But the amount of people who showed up and the amount of conversations that are happening, the amount of love and concern and just willing her to do an exquisite job. Is there enough support from the industry? No. Not at all. I think, listen, you learn when you learn. It's exhausting to have to shout. You sort of want everybody's immediate reaction to be like, oh, well, care. Oh, if that's happening online, well, then surely we should check if that person's all right it doesn't happen um and so sometimes you need to ask for what you want and ask for what you need

and oftentimes when you are the person who is at the brunt of it it's hard to ask which is why people have stood up and gone okay we will do this we will organize this we'll do this petition we'll do this open letter so that francesca doesn't have to and that she can concentrate on her work i just you just i'm just my mind has gone to black lives matter and sort of how much was talked about at the time and people posting black squares and you just wonder how much of it was performative and how much of it is? Well, you know what, as well, it's... Listen, solidarity is always something that I would love to take part of, but it's exhausting. We want to get on with our jobs.

People have kids and they're carers and all the other things that happen as well as all this. And I feel like sometimes as well, when you have a letter, when you have a petition, that can in itself seem like performative anger, when you have a letter, when you have a petition, that can in itself seem like performative anger. But we have to you have to not feel alone. That is the that's the way that you are able to get out of bed and continue to do your job because we can't lose Francesca and we can't lose all the other performers who might look at this and be like, no, thanks. So how do you protect your own mental health?

You said you used to be on social media, on Twitter. Yeah. I mean, yeah, there's things that I had to really um look at twitter i stopped um i uh i limit my comments on instagram because i've had i've been doxxed before as well online it's horrible and again having to literally have that process with the police and sort of feel like you're on your own is is so much i can't actually believe that we managed to do the output that we do with our work on top of all of this so yes there are things that you can do to limit but also why should you yeah because that's what they want they want you to disappear and hide and not show your face um that's why coming together it's it may seem like a twee thing. It may seem like a palatable thing.

It's powerful. It is powerful, isn't it, Mariam? Yeah, I mean, I am in awe sitting here listening to you. I mean, you're so articulate about every single part of it. I really, really know what you're talking about, like with the fear. The fear, yeah. And the exhaustion. And, you know, when people come for us personally you know about

a bigger issue it's so well i speak for myself you know i have been silenced at times simply because i don't have it in me to go to war oh god and it's war it's war i i've had friends who've signed the letter or who've said oh i, I've had this in my inbox. They know where you are. They know where to come and find you. It's it is war. You feel very vulnerable. And so people sort of go and I had, you know, from the police and my friends have don't.

Why are you on social media then? But you should just come up. They'll find you anyway. Why should you? Why should you have to come off? Yeah. But like, you know, to be doxxed, you know, to have to involve the police. Yeah.

You know, simply because you're a woman doing her job. Like, it is so rage-making and heartbreaking. But I love what you said about the power of solidarity. Yes. And also that feeling of, you know, the people who remain silent that you think should be on your side. That is very, very painful. I mean, I have nothing to compare what you have gone through and what Francesca is going through.

The only thing I can compare it to was in 2018 in Ireland. We had a referendum to overturn a constitutional ban on abortion. And it was horrible in terms of the hate anyone got for speaking out. Like it was such, it was exhausting. And also on my part, at the time, I felt very let down by the women who said nothing, by the women who remained silent. In more recent times, I kind of get it better that they just, they were too scared or they were just already too depleted. You know, they had already been reduced.

Oh my goodness. And I hadn't been. I was still energetic enough to kind of keep going. But it is awful because, as you say, it's to take us away from our work. And to erase us in the public eye. And again, I am not comparing myself to you because what you have gone through and Francesca is going through

is so much worse. But I saw it on a smaller scale. Just when you get a barrage and waves of hate on social media. Well, you're an outspoken woman in the public eye. Of course, you are absolutely on the front line as well of all this hate but i have to say you know your writing of this letter is a i've when i was reading it i thought this is women coming together saying no not for the next generation no we can't somalia actually says something all the time to me she always says the babies are watching the young ones are watching always says it all the

time and that was actually the thing that came into my mind that made me reach out to Somali and say I think we should do this because they're watching and we have to make them you know yes it's been publicized it's done all of that but that's 883 names that Francesca or anybody else can look up and go hi I have I have a question, you know. Very quickly though, we should celebrate Francesca because she is a brilliant young talent who has just, you know, this huge achievement. She's a rising star, incredible talent.

Tell us about her. Well, I actually met her at a play that was on at the Bush called Elephant, which was written and performed by Anushka Lucas. And she was in that. And that was the first time that I ever met her. And I just thought that she was absolutely astounding. She's been a regular in the TV show Bad Education. And yeah, and this is like a really big opportunity for her.

And so, yeah, it's going to be amazing. Susan Wacoma, thank you so much for coming to speak to me and come back anytime and tell us about some of the great work you're doing as well we look forward to you being on our tellies soon thankful um and for anybody who doesn't know what doxing is it's a form of cyber bullying that uses sensitive or secret information statements or records for their harassment exposure financial harm or the exploitation of targeted individuals 84844 is the number to text lots of you getting in touch. Carrie says, I'm a white British middle-aged woman.

At school, I was a bit of an outsider and bullied. If it wasn't for Asian girls who befriended me, I would have been a very lonely girl. I cannot understand racism, she says. People are people. We're all the same. Some of us are good, some bad, which has nothing to do with ethnicity.

I work as a nurse and I still have more work friends that are Indian, Pakistaniistani and nigerian listening to your piece on racism breaks my heart i am sat crying at 84844 the number to text keep your thoughts coming in on anything you hear on the program now i'm going to introduce my next guest although you know she's here the best-selling author marianne keys writes funny novels about life including rachel's holiday anybody out there grown-ups angels covering issues such as addiction breakups baby loss anxiety and love with women at the heart including the five walsh sisters over 30 years she's sold more than 30 million books

she co-presents the popular radio for comedy meets agony ant podcast now you're asking with tara flynn and she's landed a Netflix deal for her novel Grown Ups to be an eight-part series. Her latest novel is My Favourite Mistake, We All Make Them, but when do we stop making the same one over and over again? I'm delighted to say Marion is in the studio. It's so wonderful to have you here. I'm thrilled to be here. Seriously, thank you so much for having me. Always, always. You're welcome here. Where did the idea for this book come from? Out of kind of that awful time around two years ago when we were just coming out of the pandemic and then Russia invaded Ukraine, I was all set to write a kind of a fairly dark 40 year opus about friends, you know, who had been in each other's lives for a long time and

two of them had got very rich by nefarious means. And then I thought, I can't do this. I'm already feeling so bruised by everything. And I thought, what do I want? Well, I was reading an awful lot of love stories and I thought, actually I'd like to write a love story. One

about people in midlife, rather than those, you know, those perky 20-somethings, you know, because I suppose the older I get, the more I realise that like my feelings don't really, they haven't lessened in intensity, whether it's the good ones or the bad ones. And I love to read about women in midlife, you know, reinventing themselves, starting again. It was also inspired by what happened during COVID, like how it kind of altered us all.

And my sister's a nurse in New York and she didn't get to come home for like months and months and months during the early days. And I thought, I already had this character I'd created in another book about a woman living in New York.

And I thought, OK, you know, her relationship falls apart because, you know, so many didn't survive the whole lockdown business. Her job, which was so stressful, suddenly she realises life is short. There is actually a possibility that one day I might actually die. And so is this what I want to spend my life doing? So and she wants to go home to her family so she goes back and well she leaves she's been living in new york as this beauty pr glamorous life yeah i love 20 years i love the way you introduce us to this character i'm not going to give all the book away don't worry um but the the the end of the relationship is obvious when she says she likes to stay awake at night drinking wine

and he's playing gongs and listening to Tibetan monks chanting at 5am or whatever it is it's not working out is it? It's really not So she's living in New York she's got this great beauty PR job is that your dream job somewhere? It's absolutely not

I mean it was once upon a time I had for a short very happy period of my life, I was a beauty journalist. And I mean, all I cared about was like the padded envelopes of loveliness, which used to arrive, my poor postman. And my dad was an accountant, and he used to get out his calculator and add up how much all the things would have cost had I bought them. So that was wonderful for a long time. But being the actual PR, I think it's a kind of a really grim job because you kind of have to act like you believe in the things, even if long after you've stopped, I think. Well, this is why it's so wonderful that she is the age that she is in her mid-40s, because she's got to the point where she realised, what am I doing? And the wonderful that she is the age that she is in her mid-40s because she's got to the point where she realized what am I doing and the anxiety that she feels oh and the pressure she's under because she's got to quite a high level in the job yeah and they have to hit all these targets in terms of you know sales and publicity like it's a really stressful job and at some point

she thinks you know why am I more worried about an eyebrow pencil getting a five star review on Makeup Alley? You know, instead of like the state of the planet, like something is wrong here. Something is really wrong in my priorities. But she could have just moved, you know, to outstate New York somewhere. She decides to go back, not just to Dublin, but to a small town of just like twelve hundred people. Yes, 1200. She arrives back in Dublin thinking she'll kind of roll into any job she wants because she was killing it over in Manhattan. And they were like, yeah, but PR is all about personal relationships.

Sorry, love, find something else. So she had friends who are setting up a resort in Connemara on the Atlantic, which is the best sea of all the seas, I must insist. I have seen it. Isn't it fabulous? Yeah, I've done a driving holiday. Thank you so much. It was beautiful.

I drove from Shannon all the way up to Donegal. Anyway, it's not about my holiday. It was beautiful. I'm so glad. Thank you. I'm delighted. And yeah, there's kind of resistance in this small town of Maumtully to the fancy resort setting up.

There has been, you know, acts of vandalism done on the site and stuff. So her friends ask her, would she come in and sort of try and troubleshoot, find out what's going on. And because she's a very understated sort of self-effacing kind of person, she's good at that sort of thing because people say they forget she's there

or, you know, she's not She's not to blend in, does she? Yeah, she does. She's not in any way impressive you know she has that invisible power that well I'm older than you but like we middle aged women have you will never be invisible I don't know even why

I'm saying this. You are so incredible Actually reading it I thought I know there's a scene where she's waiting for the tube and the group of boys that just don't notice her. And I thought, but I know that. Yeah. How dare they do that to you, Anita Rani?

But yes, it's very familiar to me. Like I'm walking along the pavement and there's a group of young men larking about like further up and I'm getting near and they're not making room for me and I'm getting near and they're still at it.

And yeah, there was one time that I decided, OK, I'm just going to keep walking. So I got my elbows out and I barreled into the group of them and they were they were aghast because first of all they could barely see me because I am so invisible and then the audacity

of me thinking that I could take up their space you know not all young men as they say. What was their reaction? They were like they were so startled and angry and oy and yeah but i was in that stage um but also you might be invisible but you're also powerful yeah there's a power also yeah in the rage yeah the rage is fantastic the rage is the rage is

very propelling i find yeah the rage get gets things done. Yeah, be fuelled by rage. But there's also a storyline with Anna is that she is on the desperate hunt for HRT because she's running out. Yes. Is this something you've experienced? It certainly is. Yes. It depends on which doctor you go to. And, you know, and I would also say, look, HRT is not for everyone. Of course. And there are so many women who breeze through the menopause.

And I like I wish I was you, but I'm not. I found it very difficult. And I went to a young man doctor who, you know, gave me the chat that, well, you know, women have been doing this since the dawn of time and there's no need really, you know. And I just wanted to say, yeah, well, you know, amputations have been going on since the dawn of time. But like, you know, anaesthetics are such wonderful things.

Or perhaps you'd like to have your next operation without it. And it is so infuriating to be told by somebody who will never go through it that I can't have it. So, yeah, Anna is on this kind of desperate hunt to find a sympathetic doctor who will let her have it. Sympathetic doctor and an old flame pops up. Now, he's a bad boy. Yes. He's also very attractive, I have to say. Also, so he's Joey Armstrong.

He's a bad boy. But there are other men called, and you've described them as feathery strokers. Okay. Who are the feathery strokers? Okay. Well, I am actually married to a feathery stroker. A feathery stroker is the opposite of a bad boy. A feathery stroker, it was my sister and a friend invented it in New York a long time ago.

It's basically a man who is very gentle with you at the, you know, at the business, you know, and instead of kind of, you know, flinging you around the room, They stroke you very gently in a feathery fashion. And then it becomes, it widened out to include like men who are good to their mothers, men who eat desserts that aren't cheese, men who eat low-fat yogurt. You know, it's a kind of a, any sort of, this was invented in the early noughties.

So, you know, sensibilities have changed a lot. And I think now a feathery stroker is just the ticket. But back then, you know, men who did Pilates, you know. No, it's just normal, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. But back then, oh no. Oh no, men who did hot yoga, no. So you were ahead of the game.

I was with my feathery stroker, yes. How does it feel? You've written so many books with another one coming out do you still get the same do you feel nervous i feel so nervous i mean even now oh completely it never goes away i mean this past week i've talked about this a lot but like i have dreamt every single night for the last five nights of my teeth falling out i have actually dreamt that i was doing i was sitting at a table similar to the one we are here where I was actually no but I was playing music as well. I was

a music DJ on a radio and I couldn't figure out how to work at the desk. It's that fear of failure you know. The anxiety. Yeah the anxiety of letting people down. And the thing is people are entitled to like or not like whatever they like you know of what I do

but I still, I'd still prefer if they liked it. And I'm sure most of them will. And it doesn't matter. And it doesn't matter if they don't. You know, I will survive. You've had quite a year. I mentioned in the opener that you've got a deal with Netflix.

It's just enormous. Congratulations. Thank you. It's the first time. It's about time. Well, thank you. It's been 25 years or more since anything was made it was the the film of watermelon but um i am so excited are you going to write it no i'm not

going to write it and that's fine yeah i am i like kind of moving on to pastors new but it's in really good hands it's the people who did slow horsesorses. Oh, fantastic. I know. Oh my goodness me. And Hearts. It's going to stop her. Oh, it's going to be amazing. I know. And they're going to film in Ireland. And I would really love a cameo in a chemist's job, if at all possible. And you've turned 60.

Yes. You've also moved house. Yes. After 26 years in the same house. Yes. I feel like Anna, your character in your book, who's going through a big life change, I feel this is a big year for you. Yeah, I mean, it was never intended to be.

I mean, I suppose I couldn't really do anything about turning 60, which did really come as more of a surprise than a shock. I was like, what, already? I mean, I still feel like, now? So soon? I mean, it really is true what the old people always say. You know, you do get old. Time does pass. If you want to do something, do it now.

And I sort of feel it now. Is that why you moved house? The house thing again was nothing I had really any control over. I know that sounds weird. We had been looking for a long time for a specific kind of house and we'd given up. And one just popped up and I, when I

saw it in the paper, I got a funny feeling in my stomach because I thought, oh no, the upheaval. I knew we were going to be able to afford it and that it would be ours. Didn't you just know it was yours from a photograph? I did. Without even having been there. So then we had the horrendous thing uh going up into the attic in the house we were leaving oh my god the shame you know it's like there was a hole into hyperspace up there

you know the amount of rubbish that kept coming down like you know universes worth of rash purchases that i had made 20 years ago and the question is because i moved house recently and i haven't taken a lot of stuff with me I just left what I liberated myself have you Marion Keyes done the same or have you taken all the stuff from the old house no no I've given everything away and um and how does that feel it feels joyous I feel skippy and free and I feel like I could live in you know the same two pairs of socks the rest of my life and be happy about it yeah but are you going to start accumulating more probably this is the thing i am you know i'm by nature an accumulator um and i like i like things unfortunately but at the moment it is just i feel like i'm just skipping around in a field picking the occasional butterfly a butter cup and then trying to put it back because no i'm not

accumulating but yeah i will start of course you always bring so much joy to everybody when I hear you speak through your books. What brings you joy? We know about your beach house banjo. Oh, yes. Tell us about that. Yeah, I love crafting. Yeah, I was a manic knitter there for a while. But now, because of the new house, all I want to do is buy old dressing tables

and paint them pink and silver and put fabulous new knobs on them and just make things outrageously pretty and give like old pieces a new happy life, you know, of like being in bright colour. What else gives me joy? My nephews, my nieces, my mother. And writing. And writing, it does, yes. Well, it is a joy. It's her latest novel. It's my favourite mistake. It's out now. Go and read it. Anna, she's a wonderful character. Thank you. And Joey the bad boy.

Anyway, moving on. Thank you so much. It's my absolute honour and pleasure. It really is. And if only you could see Marion's nails. They are bright pink and absolutely bubblegum pink. They are. Barbie pink. Barbie pink. People will be able to see them when we put a bit of this on Instagram, I'm sure.

Thank you so much. Best of luck with the new novel. Come and see us anytime. Oh, God. So many of you coming in via social media to talk to me about what's going on in your lives. After 20 years, Elaine says, of thinking about it it I have entered a damson chutney into a local show Saturday is the day of judgement

at the Lithe Valley Damson Day at the Westmoreland Ground show show ground let us know Elaine if you win

sounds delicious hello just got back from my couch to 5k group able to keep up with my group after having three weeks out

a while back because of COVID in early March. Last one before first park run next week. Well done, Sue. Matthew says, after making a complaint to the bakers about a shocking find, stale mini cheddars. That is shocking. My little win was that I got sent 96 packs. Goodness me. Christmas has come early.

Keep your little wins or big victories coming in to me. 84844. Now, almost 30 years ago, Nicole Brown and her friend Ron Goldman were stabbed to death in Los Angeles. The prime suspect was OJ Simpson, Nicole's ex-husband and a well-known NFL player turned actor. What followed remains one of the most famous murder trials in history, which was televised and watched by millions. Well, OJ Simpson died on Wednesday at the age of 76. Simpson was acquitted of the murders of Nicole and Ron. He did plead no contest to charges of spousal battery, what we now call domestic violence. OJ Simpson was later found liable for the deaths in a separate civil case.

Well, joining me now to talk about the impact that trial had on the perception of violence against women is Sarah Baxter. She's the director of the Marie Colvin Centre for International Reporting and former deputy editor of the Sunday Times. She's speaking to us live from New York. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Sarah. Let's go back 30 years and discuss how this trial changed the way domestic violence was viewed by people in the United States, because it really did have a big impact, didn't it? streamed live into people's living rooms. It had huge television audiences. But we tend to remember the trial through the prism of race and relations with the police. And in fact, what it also did was really bring to light how pervasive domestic violence can be, how it can happen in homes where people assume that all is well, that the man is a charming person and that it's often one of those secret shames that are repressed for far too long. So this burst out into the open. And a few months after the trial, America brought in the Violence Against Women Act, which also changed the way that people who were subjected to went some way to educating the police as well about warning signs that bruising and 911 emergency calls could actually lead to murder.

During the trial, details of Simpson's treatment of Nicole surfaced, including her phone calls to the emergency services, pictures of her bruised and battered. How was this viewed by the American public? Well, they were shocked because they were a glamorous red carpet couple. You could see Nicole Simpson with her husband smiling away. Jay was not just a famous football star. He was a movie star. I remember how funny and charming he was in films. And this was, he was a hero.

And the police themselves never treated Nicole Brown Simpson, his wife, properly. So when she did report matters to the police, they'd come around, they'd joke, they'd goof around with OJ, he'd sign a football for them and they'd go away admonishing him to, you know, be careful and, you know, don't do this kind of thing again. Little knowing that what begins with a few blows and put downs can lead to murder. Now, at the time, it caused a huge discussion around the term spousal abuse, which we now call domestic violence. How do those terms differ, both legally and in connotations? And why is the change in language so important?

Well, if you think about it, spousal abuse was really about husbands and wives. And for decades, centuries probably, that idea of violence in the home between husband and wife was not considered anybody's business. What happened behind closed doors, closed curtains, people didn't want to know. Now, first of all, domestic violence, the concept of that, it put violence at the start, at the centre of abuse. But it also extended the idea to partners. Anybody who's got an intimate partner can be a victim of domestic violence. So that really helped to change attitudes and also unlocked support for people who are of domestic violence. So that really helped to change attitudes and also unlocked support for people who are experiencing domestic violence. And then, as I mentioned,

a new law came into place specifically to address violence against women. And that did lead to retraining of attitudes towards domestic violence among the police, not always successfully, but it began to mark a change. And one of the huge factors in this case, because as we mentioned, it was broadcast live. The whole country, the whole world seemed to be watching this case on TV. The amount of women reporting domestic violence to hotlines began to explode because they recognised their own treatment in what happened to Nicole Brown. So there was a spike in the number of women coming forward?

Yeah, huge spike. And just hotlines were deluged with calls. I mean, to this day, they still are. There's about 20,000 calls a day to helplines by victims of domestic violence in America. So it fundamentally changed America in many ways, this court case, when it comes to domestic violence. Yes, because it brought out into the open what was a secret shame. Now, according to White House figures, in the couple of decades after the trial, violence against women did decrease. So domestic violence went down by about two thirds and the murder rate went down by about a third. So that's good news. I mean, of course, we know that there's a huge amount of unreported domestic violence.

And, you know, what Jess Phillips does in the House of Commons in Britain every year, reading out the list of murdered women, you know, just gets me every time. But I think now it's a subject that's acknowledged, it's talked about, and it's not just swept under the carpet. I mean, Nicole Brown did everything she could to try and warn people. She told friends that she feared she would be killed one day. Did she not write a letter about the abuse? She did. She said that she was being beaten black and blue

and she thought that she might be killed and that OJ might get away with it. Well, of course, he was acquitted, so we can't say that he definitively killed her. But this was her biggest fear. And it was one of the reasons why he was later found guilty in the civil court and held liable to pay something like $33 million in damages to her family and Ron Goldman's family. He never paid anything like that, of course. But it was a sort of important step in the right direction to acknowledge the pain that Nicole Brown had gone through. So I think now, since the Me Too movement as well, we've come to accept that women should be believed. But in her day, 30 years ago, her biggest fear was not being believed.

And she was right in hindsight. She wasn't really believed. Sarah Baxter, thank you very much for waking up so early in the morning in New York to talk to me. Thank you. Thank you. Lots of you still getting in touch with your big victories and little wins. Rose in Switzerland said, one of my little day-to-day wins is when walking along the street, not getting out of the way of a man coming towards me who was

never moved out of the way for anyone himself. They always do it at the last minute. Another one here says, hiya, our little win, on our way to see my mother for her 96th birthday, stopped on Salisbury Plain for a cup of tea from a flask, filmed it, put it on TikTok at my daughter's suggestion, it went viral, 2.7 million, a whole new career has opened up. Oh, well, come on, a flask of tea on Salisbury Plain. That sounds like heaven to me. Also, happy birthday. 96th birthday. Well done, mum. Another one here. Big little wins after 20 years of marriage and now living alone. I have learned to do most of my DIY. Go girl. I'm now a whiz with my sander and paintbrush. Successfully fitted a water butt and cut down a tree. Michelle, you're my hero.

At 844, keep your thoughts coming in. Now, in a landmark case, the European Court of Human Rights ruled that Switzerland was violating the human rights of its citizens by inadequate action on climate change. A group of more than 2,000 older Swiss women launched the case nine years ago, calling for better protection of women's health from the effects of climate change. The court's ruling is binding and can trickle down to influence the law in 46 countries in Europe. Well, joining me now is one of the Swiss senior women for climate protection, Elisabeth Stern. And with me in the studio is the group's lawyer, Jessica Seymour. Welcome, both of you.

Elizabeth I'm going to start by coming to you. What does this ruling mean for you? Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for having me. What does this ruling mean for me? It's a surprise on one hand. I still have to get used to the surprise. And on the other hand, of course, you hope that you win. Otherwise, you would never file a complaint. I mean, you're not filing thinking, oh, I'm going to lose. So in that sense, yes, I am overwhelmed that we got a yes, yes, yes. And I'm still getting used to it because life afterwards has turned very crazy.

I have never had to do with so many media and journalists and giving interviews all day. It's a very new experience. Greta Thunberg was there in Strasbourg to support you. She said this was only the beginning of climate litigation. How does it feel to be heard around the world? Well, that's another thing. We definitely are heard around the world.

You know, here is this, we always think we are such a small country. and I know in terms of impact on many issues, specifically the financial industry, we are not that small. But yes, hearing from around the world and from friends that I haven't had contact in 10 years, suddenly they write and they say, oh, congratulations. I've just been talking to an amazing author, Marian Keyes, who's 60, and we were talking about women being invisible and people not seeing them. Well, this is quite the opposite of that, isn't it, Jessica?

Absolutely. Hello, Anita. Welcome. Hello, Elizabeth. Tell us what this ruling is and what it means practically. So this ruling, basically the court has held that states need to adopt legislative regulatory measures and they need to implement them to comply with their obligations under the Paris Agreement to reduce their greenhouse gases in order to prevent the 1.5 degree temperature threshold being exceeded. That's the temperature threshold laid down in Paris.

How did you do it? What did you take to them to say that it needed to change? Well, the case has been going on nine years. It went through all the Swiss courts with a big team of lawyers. And then eventually the Strasbourg court took the case. And extraordinarily, they moved it straight away to the Grand Chamber where they had 17 judges and from which there is no appeal, had a very big hearing on the case that behind the ruling on Article 8 of the Convention, there is already agreement, including by Switzerland, to do this. So all of these states have already agreed in 2015 in the Paris Agreement to take these measures. So in fact, Strasbourg is not telling these states to do anything other than what they've already agreed to do. You were discussing in court about how heat affects older women more than others. What evidence did you have to prove that? Well, the evidence, in fact, it was uncontested.

First of all, it comes from the Swiss Environment Agency themselves. And it comes from the IPCC, which is the Paris Scientific Assessment using science from across the world. So in fact, that was not contested. And we know that tens of thousands of people, and this is recorded in the judgment, tens of thousands of people, and specifically elderly women, have died in the heat waves that we've had across the continent since 2000. So that was actually not something we even had to prove. Elizabeth, how has climate change affected you personally? It has, in fact, affected me actually in two ways. One is simply by watching the environment, nature,

the Swiss Alps, which were considered the water reservoir, the water castle of Europe, and even the one glacier that was in my backyard has disappeared, just doesn't exist anymore. So that is one side. And then the other side is that for the last two years, I noticed that I don't take the heat very well. I have to stay inside, make sure that I can keep a low temperature in the apartment. Don't go out into the heat, don't get cold because that's exactly what happened to me two years ago, that I got caught on a very hot day on public transport,

and I thought I'm never going to see the end of this trip. I had a very severe, I still don't know what, because you don't have a doctor right there at hand, and when you go later on, he says, well, you know, you seem to be normal. Yes, I was normal again after that attack, but it took about 12 hours. And I just could hardly breathe. I was sweating like, you know, like the water was just running off me, the shoes. I felt inside the shoes.

I was on one centimeter of water. So you're seeing the change. You've seen the change in your lifetime and you're also experiencing the heat and you know it's in a way that, well, the evidence proves that older women experience heat different to men. Well, apparently, obviously I'm not a scientist,

but the scientific evidence that I've read is that women's bodies, and particularly elderly women, are less able to regulate their internal temperature. And it's for that reason that elderly women are particularly badly affected by the heat. Elizabeth, can you tell us about your group, the Senior Women for Climate Protection? How did it come about? Whose idea was it? Whose idea was it?

Well, you won't be surprised. It was the idea of a very young man working for Greenpeace. Yes. And he learned about the court case in the Netherlands, where a group of private persons, and they called themselves the Urgenda, from Urgent Agenda, and that they won a case in the Netherlands, and the government had to do their homework in terms of a better climate policy. And then he thought we want, he wanted to do that in Switzerland. How can you do it? Only people who are personally affected can complain, can put in a complaint. So he went around and he found a group, revolutionary grandmothers, the group was called.

And they said, yes, we like to take this case on. So they started with a dozen, then 150, 450. Now we are two and a half thousand. Of revolutionary grandmothers. How do I join the revolutionary grandmothers? I'm not a grandmother. I just want to join the group. But seriously, can people join you join you yes people can join us they can join us as members when they have a the age of 64 and if they are a woman because that's just the way we have to do it we started and you can be a supporter i am a supporter you've got the support and we

started the program talking about solidarity, Elizabeth. How important is the solidarity between all of you as older women? Well, that's just tremendous in terms of how we can live it every day. It's just on the board. We are nine women. Each one has its sort of separate own talents to do this or that. And I think we have learned just by living it to support each other in each individual talent we have.

Jessica, we've got this ruling now, this landmark ruling, but how might it affect other countries and what's the real world impact going to be? For example, the UK Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero, Claire Cortino, she tweeted that she's concerned by the Strasbourg Court's decision how we tackle climate change affects our economic energy and national security. Elected politicians are best placed to make those decisions. What do you think about it? Well, first of all, I can't understand how she's concerned

because in the UK we have the Climate Change Act, which has set the targets and every five years sets a budget, which is specifically pretty much what Strasberg said you had to do. The only concern she might have relates to the question of whether she actually has plans and policies in place that will enable those budgets to be met. And her position in a current legal case is that she does. So that is actually subject to current adjudication and a judgment is expected in a couple of months. But in relation to all countries, all 46 countries, the judgment is binding. Strasbourg absolutely says it's entirely a matter for the national authorities to decide how to do it. That is not for Strasbourg. So there is

no need to be concerned about Strasbourg interfering in domestic policy decisions. All Strasbourg is saying is you need to do what you have said that you are doing and you will do, i.e. your commitments under Paris. Can you see associations suing the government for not protecting their human rights here? Certainly. I mean, that is a really important part of the judgment, is that the court has opened up the possibility of associations that represent human rights interests connected with the environment

bringing litigation, and that will certainly be possible under the Human Rights Act. So Elizabeth and her group may well have changed the world a little bit. Certainly. I hope you're having a big celebration tonight, Elizabeth. Yes, a very big one, I can tell you that. And then, you know, first celebrate and then we take care of all those arguments against us. Well, it's been wonderful speaking to you both.

Thank you so much, Elizabeth Stern. Enjoy the celebrations this evening. And Jessica Simel, thank you. Thank you. did this as a 56-year-old woman. And today's small win says someone else, oh, Nicole, says, I managed to get myself and my 12-year-old baby boy up, washed and dressed in time to sit down and tune in to Woman's Hour. That's a huge win. Now, they said it would never work.

A musical about a single mum set on a Greek island featuring the songs of Abba, written, directed and produced by three women. Well, a quarter of a century later, not only is Mamma Mia still going strong, it's spawned two movies, a spin-off show, and has been seen by 10 million people in London alone. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Helena Bonham Carter, and for BBC Radio 4, this is History's Secret Heroes, a new series of rarely heard tales from World War II. None of them knew that she'd lived this double life. They had no idea that she was Britain's top female codebreaker. We'll hear of daring risk takers. What she was offering to do was to ski in over the high Carpathian mountains in minus 40 degrees. Of course it was dangerous, but danger was his friend. Helping people was his blood.

Subscribe to History's Secret Heroes on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.