Woman's Hour - Marian Keyes, SEND, Designer Tolu Coker, Student midwives

Episode Date: February 23, 2026

Irish author Marian Keyes has sold over 30 million copies of her books worldwide over the past three decades. From her 1995 debut Watermelon to Rachel's Holiday and last year's 'menopause romance' My Favourite Mistake, she’s championed telling ordinary women's stories in all their glory, with plenty of humour thrown in. Now some of her most-loved books and characters have been adapted into a TV series called The Walsh Sisters which has just debuted on BBC One and BBC iPlayer. Marian and the show’s co-creator Stefanie Preissner talk to presenter Nuala McGovern about bringing Rachel and her sisters to life on screen. As the Government prepares to unveil its plans for a major overhaul of the SEND system, we hear from BBC Political Correspondent Alex Forsyth on what's been said so far and what's expected. The government has said it will spend billions to make English mainstream schools more inclusive for pupils with special educational needs and disabilities, with Sir Keir Starmer saying that the experience of his late brother, who had learning disabilities, makes him "determined to change Britain so that it is truly built for all." The number of people with education, health and care plans (EHCPs) up to the age of 25 in England has doubled in a decade. Student midwives have contacted us to say many of them are struggling to find jobs despite a serious shortage of midwives in the NHS. A new survey from the Royal College of Midwives echoes that finding. It says 31% of those newly qualified midwifes are still not employed in the role and the majority of those who have found employment are on fixed term contracts. This comes a year after the government announced it's Graduate Guarantee pledging that every newly qualified nurse and midwife in England would have the opportunity to apply to join the NHS workforce. We hear from Safia, who is in her final year of midwifery training, and Gill Walton, Chief Executive of the Royal College of Midwives. Award-winning British Nigerian fashion designer Tolu Coker joins Nuala in the studio fresh from kicking off London Fashion Week with King Charles in the front row. Her latest collection, Survivor’s Remorse, is inspired by grief, nostalgia and childhood memories and is a joyful celebration of growing up in 1990s London and the community that shaped her. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Sarah Jane Griffiths

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. This is not the future we were promised. Like, how about that for a tagline for the show? From the BBC, this is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life.

And all the bizarre ways people are using. the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. And while you're here, I wanted to let you know that the Woman's Hour Guide to Life is back. You might have listened to some of the episodes from the first series, including ambition without burnout, or turning aging into your superpower. Well, we've got six new episodes for you over the coming weeks that will give you practical tips. tips on issues like self-promotion without feeling awkward, caring for aging parents, navigating

infertility with family and friends, and also how to love your face, whatever your age. I'm really excited about this series of the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, so I really hope you'll join us. You will find the episodes in the Woman's Hour podcast feed on Sundays. It's only on BBC Sounds. But now, back to today's Woman's Hour. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, today, as you've been hearing in the news bulletin, we get ready for the long-awaited reforms to the send system. The government will soon reveal its plans in full for children and young people

with special educational needs and disabilities. That's coming up. We'll also speak to the woman who opened London Fashion Week, British and Nigerian designer Tolukho. She hug King Charles in her front row, no less. We also have the woman who is beloved by many all around the world. an interview with Marion Keyes. She came into our studio with Stephanie Prysner

to talk about their new TV show, The Waltz Sisters. It is based on Key's bestselling books. So we've a good conversation there. And also, we ask why our student bidwives finding it's so difficult to get a job when there is a chronic shortage within the NHS in England.

So we'll also talk about that. But let me turn to the government, unveiling its plans for a major overhaul of the SEND system later today. It has said it will spend billions to make English mainstream schools more inclusive for pupils with special educational needs and disabilities. Sir Kier Starrmer, you might have seen in the time, saying that the experience of his late brother, who had learning disabilities, makes him determined to change Britain so that it is truly built for all.

The number of people with education, health and care plans, EHCPs, goes up to the age of 25 in England, and that has doubled in a decade. Well, with me now is the BBC's political correspondence. Alex Forsyte. Good to have you with us this morning, Alex. A lot of new information about what is in this school's white paper about the reforms in regards to send. Has come out over the weekend. But what would you say we know so far in brief? I think we're pretty clear about ministers thinking on this. And the reason there's been a lot of sort of drip, drip of information about this is that these reforms have been a long time coming. In fact, they were delayed from

when they were due initially to come out last year. Part of the reason for that, is because the government is aware that there's a lot of nervousness among parents, among young people, and among its own MPs around what it's proposing here. So the first kind of headline details we are getting suggests the government's thinking is clear in that it prefers inclusive mainstream education. So that is more pupils, children with special educational needs being taught in mainstream schools, but getting proper support. And that is why we've seen this funding announcement today, a total of about £4 billion pounds going in part to early year settings

to schools, to colleges and then in part to councils to set up sort of banks of specialist teachers to try and ready the mainstream system for more children with special educational needs. But the other element to this is what it's going to do around the legal protections that children get.

So currently children can get an education, health and care plan. That's effectively a document that underpins their legal right to get certain support. And we know that the government is looking at changes to how that works, including possibly reassessing children when they leave primary and go into secondary settings.

And I think that element of it is certainly prompting some questions and possibly some concerns. And you mentioned funding there and the $4 billion. I want to bring a little off the Education Secretary, Bridget Phillips. And she was speaking to Laura Kunsberg yesterday. We're spending more money and we'll continue to spend more money both around schools and send both together. We are going to spend more money

delivering better outcomes for children. What we will be doing, however, is taking action where that money is not being well spent. This bill has been going up and up and up and up and up. And there is a projected shortfall of about £6 billion in this system. So you're just going to keep spending more and more money? I'll come back directly to that point about the projection. But we will be spending more because we do believe

it's important to invest in our children. But what we're doing is spending a lot of that money incredibly badly. We can't continue as we are. So the Education Secretary there we have known also Laura mentions there Alex the costs have been prohibitive a lot of the debate actually has been around spending as it relates to SEND

we're seeing the Institute for Fiscal Studies think tank said the government was spending £12 billion a year on supporting those with SEND and that figure has risen 66% in the last decade but we don't have a clear picture completely yet on what it will look like no we don't what we do know is exactly as you say the costs have been piling up. As demand has grown, as more children are needing this kind of

support, councils have been racking up debts that have been sitting off their books. The government's just said that it's going to clear some of those debts to the tune of about $5 billion, but the Office of Budget Responsibility predicted there'd be a £6 billion shortfall in send funding. The government's taking that into central government. So there's still lots of questions about the finances. I think what is interesting to know is you heard Bridget Phillips and the Education Secretary there really trying to say this isn't about cutting money, it's about investing in the system. And that is because, if you think back to when the government tried to make changes to the welfare system, and there was that huge pushback and rebellion from Labour MPs, there was a sense in Parliament that the government

was focused on cutting resources, and that's what led to a lot of the anger. They are very much trying to avoid that this time by talking about investing in the mainstream system and the send system more widely to try and get it right. But it is also true to acknowledge. To acknowledge, knowledge that the bills have been going up. And we don't yet know. And the government ministers talking on the airwaves this morning weren't really clear about whether their long-term ambition is to try and bring that bill down. They're just trying to focus at this stage on the investment they're putting in. And I think that is because there has been a bit of anxiety about what they're going to do with this system, given that so many parents and young people depend on it.

So on that point, the political response, is there any mood music about whether there could be a Labour rebellion on this? Honestly, so I've been talking to Labour MPs over the course of the last few months really. And I think the fact the government's been doing what it's called this listening exercise with young people, but also MPs, the fact it's been consulting pretty carefully on what it's planning to do and what it's thinking is, I think that that has calmed some of the nerves. But without a doubt, MPs are going to want to see the detail of what the government's publishing today. So we're going to get the full details later on. And I suspect they're going to be pouring over that really carefully with the

The central question being, do these reforms strengthen or weaken the support and the protections that children and young people currently get? And then that will determine how they respond. I think they have been comforted by the government's approach in this, but there are still key questions. And the reason for that caution from MPs is because they know how much this matters to their constituents speak to any MP. They'll tell you this is one of the issues that regularly tops their inboxes.

So the detail will come out, as you mentioned, once it's published. But this is part of the school's white paper, send, of course, what a lot of the attention is on within that paper. But it's not a done deal. No, there's a consultation. So no, it isn't a done deal. And again, I think this is part of the government trying to tread carefully around this, mindful of some missteps on other policy areas in the past. So there's going to be a 12-week consultation when these details are first published. And I think the reaction from not just Labour MPs, but MPs rise across party. but also crucially parents and people that work in the sector is going to be crucial in determining what happens after that point. We've already seen, for example, some early reaction from one teaching union, the NASUWT, which is suggesting that the resources the government's putting in so far aren't going to be enough to make sure that the mainstream school system has enough capacity and support for children with special educational needs. So I think the consultation process itself is going to be quite crucial in informing the reaction and the response and then where ministers go from there. You mentioned other parties. Are they broadly on board? Well, I think there is widespread

recognition. There has to be reform of this system because almost everybody you speak to recognises that it isn't working at the moment, not for young people, not for parents, not for councils, not for schools. It's a very adversarial system and lots of people who are in it find themselves battling to try and get support and there's a real patch worker provision. So other parties recognise something needs to be done. done. The Liberal Democrats have come out saying that Sen needs to be treated as a sort of critical infrastructure so that it doesn't become a sort of cost football. They've also talked a lot about spending less money on private specialist school places, something the government's also

talking about. The Conservatives are keen that any support isn't stripped away from pupils. And Reform UK has said they're going to come out with their plans to reform the SEND system down the line. So recognition, something needs to be done, less consensus on exactly what that is. A lot of these changes, whatever does or does not come into force in the end, it would be a number of years before we would see them in action. Yeah, the government's talking about a gradual change. So, for example, this idea of reassessing children who have education, health and care plans when they move from primary to secondary.

They're talking about that coming in from 2029 onwards. And the reason from the government's perspective is, I think, that they are trying to say we'd want to make sure that the mainstream school system is up to scratch first, that it has enough provision, that it is inclusive enough, that it has the right level of support for pupils in it before those other changes to legal protections come in further down the line. They're talking about a sort of 10-year program. I think it's a recognition of the complexity of this system of how many people depend on it, how difficult it will be to get some of these changes in place.

But I also think it's an attempt at reassurance for some parents that things aren't going to move so quickly that they see rights stripped away. But that doesn't necessarily mean that parents aren't still going to be anxious about what this means for their children, particularly when it comes to the protections and the support that they currently receive. Thanks very much.

The BBC's political correspondent, Alex Forsyth. I do want to let you know a woman's hour tomorrow will be dedicated to these crucial send reforms. The detail, as Alex is telling us, will be published today. We're going to explore the key consequences and talk to parents,

young people and professionals that will be affected. So do tune in for that and for more background on the send crisis. You can, of course, listen to our podcast, Send in the Spotlight. Just search for it on BBC Sounds and all episodes will come up so far on so many of these issues that we spoke about briefly with Alex. Now, I want to turn to my next guest. She is something of a publishing legend. She sold over 30 million copies of her books worldwide over the past three decades. If I say them, you'll know who I'm talking about.

From her 1995 debut, watermelon to Rachel's holiday, grown-ups to last year's menopause romance, my favourite mistake. She's been a champion of telling ordinary women's stories in all their multifaceted glory with a good dose of Irish humour as well. It is, of course, marrying keys. Now, some of her most loved books and characters have been adapted into a TV series. It's called The Waltch Sisters. It was on BBC One and BBC I player over the weekend. is billed as a comedy about serious things. So I got to chat to Marion

and also the TV's co-creator Stephanie Prysner about bringing the character Rachel and her sisters to the screen and I asked to start with Marion what it was like, finally seeing the Walsh sisters come to life after writing about them for such a long time.

It's beyond thrilling. I've been writing for like 30 years and it's 27 years since anything has been made for the screen. It's such a beautiful experience because I wrote the book so I kind of know the story but Stephanie has taken them and all the actors and the director has taken it

and made them into something new and that has the feel of my books but is differently entertaining for me I find it moving in a way as if it was nothing to do with me it's been so much fun and I'm so proud of it and so joyous about it all

the young women that play the Five Sisters I cannot believe how lucky we were to get the cast we got and how everyone inhabits their roles so perfectly. But the chemistry, the kind of the sibling-like chemistry between all five of them. I remember the first day you came to set

and you were in cloisters and you saw Helen with her little... Yeah, like Helen is a person who finds life very, very disappointing. She's irritated by it all. And yeah, I come to set for the first time and she's her... Like, there's something off about Helen

and like her trousers are a little bit too short and she's got this bomber jacket on and her hands are bunched into little fists in the pockets and she's just kind of striding around kind of looking with acute dissatisfaction at everything and that's exactly how I imagined her and then here comes Claire and she's like gold-rimmed sunglasses and she's strutting along on her oversized

her Geiger shoes and she's just so glamorous and like life is so fabulous for Claire it was like they walked straight out of my head and into real life Woolsh is I've news Has Black Friday come early? No, actually

actual news Hot off the press On Monday I will finally be a full walt again my divorce sister Cheers Yeah this is huge We have to celebrate

Even I would celebrate that You should all go Thanks dad I'm favourite In your dreams Do you have a favourite character When it comes to the Walsh sisters I kind of identify with all of them

I know that's maybe a kind of a cop-out answer Maggie, I really identify with her kind of her control and her need to make sure everybody is okay like she's always thinking ahead and knowing that like you know Claire is going to show up without a present I'm very like that I think in a way Claire is the one I identify with Least but I do really enjoy the way that like

she's completely devoted to her appearance she makes no apology for it obviously I identify with Rachel's addiction Anna I just love because she's so, and she's probably the most normal of them all. I mean, I'm far from normal. But I find her a very kind kind character. But Helen I sort of adore.

She finds the world so annoying. I'm like, I'm like that some of the time. I suppose they're all versions of parts of me. Yes, like different facets of the personality. Because no one person can be reduced to, you know, three personality traits. Like, we're all

very complex. I genuinely, I adore them all. Stephanie, tell me a little bit about how you came to it. I came to it in 2018. Cuba Pictures, Nick Marston and Dixie Linder, acquired the rights to Marion's books. And then they were looking for a writer to write it, I guess, to adapt it. And I had written another TV show called Cat Cope Won't Cope and some theatre work called Salpedine is my boyfriend. And Marion had seen both of those.

And I think my name came up in conversations and I did an interview. And then I got the job. And it's been up and down since then happening, not happening, pauses, pandemics, you know the drill. And the cast that I would have envisioned when I pitched the idea seven years, they're all too old to play the sisters now. By the time it came into production. So I really do believe in that kind of divine timing that like the right people were available at the right time. And I mean that from like the person who, all the girls who play the sisters down to the people who drove our taxis on the transport crew. Like everybody was just so lovely and yeah, it was just a dream.

So it was charmed then once it came together and you talk about the various peas. But what about the pea of pressure? Because you know how beloved Marion is, not just in Ireland, but world wide. How does it feel to take that mantle on? Yeah, it's very intense. It's very intense because Marion, of course, is beloved and you have to understand that like our country is not a monarchy. But Marion is like the closest thing we have to, you know, but I'm not. It's true.

It's without being flattering. Like, your picture is in the National Gallery. You are part of our culture, part of our heritage, whether or not people like your books or have read your books. This is the thing we need to get across. For those even that have not read the books, they love her. They love her. You're so non-threatening in your non-threatening in how you describe very difficult things and how you hold space for like, actually, I'm very first. and I'm not going to allow you to speak me down here

because women's stories are important stories and I will not allow you to have them dismissed which they have been for like millennia and so as a writer like it's such an honour but obviously such a pressure. People are not just like Marion Key's fans they're like Marion Key's evangelists like people know who they were dating

when they first read Rachel's Holiday people know what beach they were on when they first read any of her other books do you know what they could do Marion Keyes on Mastermind. Yeah, it's a lot. By making the decision that I wanted it to not be a period piece, that I wanted it to be set now in 2020, 26, that meant that a lot of the things in the book, you know, so all of a sudden you have technology and you're like, okay, do the sisters have a WhatsApp group? I mean, of course they're going to have a WhatsApp group. Several. Several WhatsApp groups with each one eliminated from another one so that they can talk about them. You know, Luke and his leather trousers means something slightly different in the 90s. Mammy Walsh and how she's rendered and the whole. that Catholicism has on her as a woman in her 60s has slightly changed now and so I knew

that I wasn't going to be able to like copy and paste the show onto a screen and I don't think that that would have been the right thing to do either but what I wanted to capture was the feeling of reading a Marian Key's book, that feeling of like oh my God this is so funny oh my God I'm crying that sensation

and I think that's what I also want to underline for people that aren't as familiar with your work a comedy but it is about serious things Are you always attracted to that combination, Marion? I am. I mean, it has never been something that kind of happened to my conscious brain. But like I think with any story, there needs to be something incredibly meaningful at the heart of it. And most meaningful things are painful.

Too much good news becomes tedious. But it's definitely an Irish trait that we use humour as a survival mechanism. The home I was brought up in, like if you had any kind of injury or sorrow, nobody wanted to know until you had converted it to an entertaining anecdote. And so that's a kind of way of kind of alchemising sorrow or pain or like making it palatable.

And allowing you to get close to it safely. Safely, exactly. People read Rachel's holiday and they pick it off a bookshelf in W.H. Smith or somewhere at the airport. Knowing you're not meant to judge a book by its cover, but often it's the only thing you have to go on, this is going to be safe for me to read.

Like all of a sudden they're on a beach or on a tube when they're like questioning their own relationship with alcohol and addiction or the loved ones in their lives where as if it's called like the girl with a needle in her arm and it's got a black cover it's a different genre

and it's a different genre and it's a dick like it could be the exact same story but it's not it doesn't feel safe and it brings you to the same place shall we say the series does open with one of the sisters Rachel on a night out hitting it quite hard

we see the repercussions there's a realisation for her and her family that she doesn't just like a drink but that she has a problem. Look, are we going to talk about what happened this morning? Are we just going to add it to the list

of things that we ignore? What? What's that supposed to mean? Luke was really concerned. Too concerned. Well, I mean, the ambulance was definitely unnecessary. What if someone actually needed an ambulance and they couldn't get to us

because they were on our way to ours? Yeah, exactly. I mean, like... You know, it's actually a really selfish thing to do to go on an ambulance, if you think about it. I think he was really worried. Anyway, let's just... Whoever needs to calm down.

and just take a bit of space. Yeah. Yeah. How was it looking at that on screen, Mary? And you have been very open and honest about alcohol in your early years. I think you still refer to yourself as an alcoholic? Oh, without a doubt, I will be an alcoholic till the day I die. Like, I'm a recovering alcoholic.

Now I'm lucky enough to be in recovery. And it's 32 years since I've had a drink. But it's still something that I'm conscious of on a daily basis. But I am very, very, well, I thought it was very comfortable with my addiction and where it took me. But it was so affecting, seeing it on the screen. It really struck me like how careless I was with myself. It really shocked me and how careless I was with the people around me.

Because Caroline Menton, who plays Rachel, and obviously the script that Stephanie wrote, she absolutely gets the charm that addicts use to get what they want, the manipulation, trying to make people. but feel sorry for them or like attacking them. All these personality traits are how an addict keeps it going. Because there's a kind of so much misplaced mythology around addiction. It's like you're craving and you're on the margins of society.

But like most addicts are like carrying on fairly normal lives and they're using these various personality tools. And so seeing that, seeing how manipulative. That was the word I was going to come to, Mary. I mean, she is a master manipulator. Yeah. My drinking was the love of my life. It was the greatest friend I had ever had. And the last thing I wanted to do was stop.

So I employed everything I could to stay drinking. And I think that's probably the case for most addicts. Nobody wants to stop. And you use Wiles. She's so good at the manipulation. And you wrote it so well, Stephanie. It keeps the viewer guessing. And some of the other characters that are there

within rehab that she goes to. And even her own family, like Claire says to her, like, rehab, really? Like, I've been out with Rachel loads of times and I drink way more than her. And that's really important because I think a lot of people think that alcoholism is the volume that you drink and not the reason behind it or the relationship or what it does to you. But you mentioned Claire, the bond of sisterhood. Let's talk about that. What do you think it is about that sibling relationship, particularly sisters, that can make it

quite compelling to watch. I don't know, because I'm actually an only child. It's probably something to do with having the shared childhood, having that shared language of like, this is how we've always done it, this is how it's always been. And no matter what I do, you'll always be my sister.

Like, I can hate you, but I can't actually get away from you. I can't sever that. Like, I can go no contact, but that's, you're still my sister and then I'm in no contact with you. I think Irish people also have a very particular relationship to family that I know from my own extended family is different in the UK that the expectations of how frequently you see your family, the expectation of who's going to be at your wedding, funeral, birthdays is quite different. And I think I got a small sense of it with the show. Like we do actually have a WhatsApp group called Sisters and everyone kind of fits into their own little boxes of their own personal personalities rather than their characters. But families are not the, easiest place to grow. You know, you often get stuck into your box and so I thought it would be really interesting to have all of the girls at home as much as possible because when we see them out in their lives, they're able to sort of self-identify but when they come back in, they're all put into

the boxes that they've been put in. Which actually is very modern in a way because an awful lot of kids are staying with their parents for much longer than they ever did before. Helen will be really relatable in that sense because she really wants to get out but she can't because the house I'm a bedroom in a single bed. I should let people know, Stephanie, as well. You're the writer, the showrunner, so you've got that creative control, but you also play the oldest sister, Maggie.

You have spoken openly about struggles to have a child when we meet Maggie. She's trying to conceive. Just wondering what that felt like. Yeah, so I didn't actually know that I was going to be playing Maggie when I was writing it, and so I was very confidently writing that intimacy scene

for some other actor to play they do end up having to have a sex schedule because she's so desperate to have a child and I do remember that phase of my life. I mean, I've had like five miscarriages and two failed IVF attempts and just remember, thank you, just how singular that plan was in my head

and I love how Maggie is. She is so secretive about it because I think she feels she has to be within her family but how like within her marriage this is the one thing that she's focused on and I thought that I could bring a real sense of truth to that because I know from being on those TTC trying to conceive websites

that like there are just so many women out there who will watch this and relate and be sitting on couches watching it with people who don't know that that's what they're going through. It's a very powerful image. That viewer watching that, connecting with it. And not saying anything.

Well, that the people around them don't know that they're connecting perhaps more with that character than the people that are sitting on the sofa beside them. Yeah. I just wish it wasn't that way. I wish we hadn't sort of set up this rule, societal rule that is like, yeah, don't tell anyone you're pregnant until 12 weeks because it's just so common to have a miscarriage in that time and we don't really want to deal with your pain. Don't tell us until it's actually a thing. And then you end up carrying that alone and feeling like, oh, but it was only seven weeks or it was only this and maybe so like maybe it wasn't real. But like two hours after getting a positive pregnancy test, you're already like thinking about names and thinking about your house and where the cot's going. going to go and how you're going to afford childcare. Like your mind just goes there. You can't put it off for 20.

It's not possible. It's human nature. Yeah, that was a lot. You do it brilliantly. Yeah, well, we were so blessed with it. They were all incredible. That was Stephanie Prysner, you heard, along with Marion Keys. I do want to say if you've been affected by any of the issues we were discussing in that interview, you can head to the BBC's Action Line website to find details of support. And the Walter Sisters, all episodes are available to watch on the BBC Eye Player Now.

The episodes will also air weekly on BBC One on Saturday nights. This is not the future we were promised. Like, how about that for a tagline for the show? From the BBC, this is The Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life.

and all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. I want to let you know about the Woman's Hour Guide to Life. It returned yesterday for a brand new series. So this week we take on something that's perhaps a bit of a necessity nowadays, but it can also be difficult to do, how to self-promote. I speak to neurologist, Gina Rippen, about why sometimes this can feel threatening,

plus also we have the writer and motivational speaker Stephanie Sword Williams. She shares her three G's tips to make speaking up for yourself work for you while also helping others. When we think about self-promotion, I want you to break it down into three core areas. How can you be genuine, open and honest about it? How can you be gracious? Celebrate those that may have helped you or the people that have got you there. And how can you be a giver? So how could you share something through your self-promotion that might add value to other people?

because then that takes the spotlight away from just being about yourself and showcasing how much you want to see other people grow to. That's the Woman's Hour Guide to Life on Self-Promotion Without the Cringe. You can find it in the Woman's Hour feed right now. And this coming Sunday, we're going to be talking about sleep, how to get more of it and worry about it less. But let me turn now to a story that listeners to Women's Hour have asked us to explore. They are student midwives.

They say many of them are struggling to find jobs, despite a serious shortage of midwives in the NHS. There's a new survey from the Royal College of Midwives out that echoes that finding. It says 31% of those newly qualified midwives are still not employed in that role and that the majority of those who have found employment are on fixed term contracts as opposed to permanent contracts. It comes a year after the government announced its graduate guarantee, pledging that every newly qualified nurse and midwife in England

would have the opportunity to apply to join. the NHS workforce. So how has it been on the ground? Well, I'm joined by Safia, who's in her final year of midwifery training. Good morning, Safia. Good morning. Thank you for having me. We also have Jill Walton, Chief Executive of the Royal College of Midwives. Good morning, Jill. Good morning. Now, Safia, why did you get in touch? So I'm a third year student midwife. This is my dream. It's my dream job. I've taken out 60,000 pounds in student loans. I've worked nearly 2,300 clinical hours in the NHS. And right now, I don't have a job,

and I will not have a job if it continues to go in this direction. There's hundreds of newly qualified midwives that qualified last August that are unemployed, not by choice. They are desperate to work as midwives. And there's a barrier. The government has had budget cuts after budget cuts, and our trusts tell us that they want to, to employ us, but they don't have the money to do so.

So let's jump into some of those figures with Jill for a moment, because your survey that I mentioned, 31% of newly qualified midwives are not in employment in that profession. But we've spoken about so many times the shortage of midwives. Why is there the mismatches you understand it? Well, I think as the Safaya's right, that there's some short-term financial savings in the NHS is having an impact on the long-term Sophie, so that trust can't employ those graduate midwives. And this happened last year, and it will happen this year as well. They can't employ those graduate midwives.

And so 31% in our survey are not in midwife roles. They've gone off and done other things or nothing at all. And those that were employed are on short-term contracts or part-time, which is ridiculous. And you've had, you know, many times you've had on this programme about the crisis in maternity care. It's really impacting on the confidence of women using services and staff. And so we want the government to fund more midwifery posts so that students can be employed. So let me just read a little of what the Department for Health and Social Care has told us. No one who dedicates themselves to a career midwifery should be left in limbo and their skills are so urgently needed to

rebuild our NHS. That is why this government's graduate guarantee delivered 700 additional roles for newly qualified midwives on top of an existing recruitment, backed by £8 million in funding. They say we now have a record 31,024 midwives working in the NHS and our 10-year workforce plan will set out how we will train, recruit and retain the midwifery workforce for the long term. So is that not moving in the right direction? I mean, some of the figures I've heard of a shortfall are around 2000. Explain to me how you see that statement. And when it is moving in the right direction, so let's say that.

We're looking forward to the workforce plan because we need to have that good planning. But maternity services is very complicated. It's getting more complicated. Women absolutely need personalised care. So we know that there needs to be more midwives and graduate midwives are a solution for the future. Our members tell us that they are on their needs. You know, that number doesn't equate to what's happening on the ground. They miss their breaks. They work way longer than their contracted hours. And they know they're still not delivering the care they want to deliver.

So those numbers don't tell the true picture of what's really happening in maternity services. There's a couple of aspects I'd like to pick up on more complicated. Why? Well, one of the things that, you know, there are lots of women who are older, they already have maybe long-term conditions. Women know more about what they want in maternity services, and the service has to be responsive for that. Midwives have to have time to develop relationships with women, listen to what they need and what they want. That takes more time than maybe it did five, ten, ten, twenty years. years ago. And women deserve it, rightly so. And we really need the staff to be able to provide that care. You also mentioned that they can't be employed. Why is that? Is that purely a funding issue,

as you describe it? Yes. I mean, I think that the funding cuts are applied across all services, including maternity. We'd argue that maternity needs to be prioritised for funding. You know, So these are services for women delivered mainly by women. You know, that's been part of the problem for a long time, out of sight and out of mind. So it's really important that the NHS and the government prioritise maternity services and put it right and start by employing graduate midwives. And that is my next question. With that shortfall that we are speaking about, and I know there's funding issues,

you would like to see more the government feels they are on the right track or putting out that $8 million as they talk about. could new graduate midwives plug that shortfall that we see or do they need anything else, extra training, more qualifications or could they walk straight into that job when they graduate? Yes. A midwife when they graduate, it's an autonomous profession, they graduate and they can be midwives. They're on the register. They can be midwives. And, you know, the important thing is that they get support when they first go into the profession with a good,

preceptorship, but they are the future. They absolutely know what they're doing. They've had brilliant education. So let's employ them. Let's go back to Safia. There you go. Well, you get a glowing report from Jill. You are organising a march at Parliament.

Tell me why you want to do that. And what are the issues you're hearing about from your colleagues, really, I suppose, that you're graduating with? Yeah, I started my Instagram post over less than two weeks ago because I felt that we weren't being listened to student midwives and newly qualified midwives, we're crying out, we just want to work. We want to be midwives. We want to serve women and birthing people and their families. And I started it because I was so frustrated and so angry that I have given three years of my life to my dream job. And I'm not being given that opportunity. And so the government guarantee, for example, when I was looking at it, there are hubs that they have created where you will be able to see jobs that you can apply for. What happens when you do?

Well, there's currently no jobs. Last week there was two preceptor jobs in England. So there's hundreds of newly qualified midwives. We haven't actually seen the guaranteed job scheme translating into real posts to solve this nationwide problem. This isn't just about us. This is about the system that's punishing student midwives are the same system that women and birthing people have their babies in and understaffed services. and unemployed midwives should never coexist. So what would you like to see happen, Safia? I would like the government to put funding into the hospital so they can create jobs for us. And, you know, in the meantime, we have a protest on the 3rd of March, 4pm Parliament Square Gardens. This is about everyone.

We're all born. And if you care about human rights, women's rights, please come and support us, follow our campaign, email your MP. He's scream and shout. I just want a job. I want to be a midwife. This is my dream.

Tell me a little bit also about the training. I was very interested to read that part of your degree you need to have done, I believe, it's 40 vaginal births to qualify. In London, for example, the cesarean rate is over 50%. So that can be tricky perhaps to hit that number? It can be for a lot of students.

And again, a lot of students. students struggle because once you be only with our bursaries and our maintenance loan only cover to a certain point in our training and after that you still have to get your 40 deliveries and a lot of students that I know currently are working part-time jobs in supermarkets as night nannies and it's like police officers don't pay to train firefighters don't pay to train this is such an important service and we are we're being exploited and we just want a job. That's what I want. I mean, some might wonder as well, Jill, why there are all these training places within universities if in fact the jobs aren't there at the end. Is that, is that a conversation

that's taking place? Yes, and I think it was probably poor workforce planning. We do, you know, there was a recognition that there was more midwives needed and so, you know, more training places came about, but there wasn't the follow-through then to employ those graduate midwives when they came out of their education. So it goes back to the funding of the NHS. This is about safe staffing, it will safe care. We have to employ more midwives and, you know, it is the bottom line. It really is. I'm speaking primarily about England here. I know your survey is UK-wide. How is it in the other regions? Yes, in the other nations there are similar problems.

Our members tell us that they're working extra hours and they can't deliver the care they want to. So it's a similar problem. Some of the student midwives have got jobs, but the staffing crisis is the same in the other nations. And let me turn it indeed nations and not regions. Let me turn back to you, Safia, because say you're trained, you come out. When is your graduation? I will hopefully qualify in July August. July August.

If you don't have a job, I don't know, let's say for six, I really hope you do, but if you don't for six months, what happens then? I mean, does your qualification always remain active? It currently does, but you need, so once you qualify, you register for your pin and you need to keep up a certain number of hours to have to keep your pin. And so obviously I've been inundated with newly qualified midwives that have their pin, but they don't have those hours. and so they're ready essentially a year behind.

And I really don't know what they're going to be, what are they going to do? I want to thank both of you for joining us, trainee midwife Safia, also Jill Walton from the Royal College of Midwives. Thanks to both of you for getting in touch. Thank you. Now, I want to thank you for your messages that are coming in. Here's some. Gillian says maternity services should be a top priority for government.

It needs more spending to make a better society for us all. another Denise on our earlier item. I'm a parent. My daughter has an EHCP, so an education, health and care plan, and a diagnosis of autism which greatly impacts her ability to feel okay in school. She's had prolonged absences, even though every morning she gets up and gets dressed into her uniform and has a real love of learning. She is often unable to leave the house. The focus needs to be put on why the larger education system no longer works for so many people.

And of course, the white paper to be released a little later today. who are following all those stories. Let me turn to whether you or someone you know has a child or are planning or expecting another one as we talk about midwives. If so, you will want to check out the latest episode of CBB's Parenting Download. This week, presenters Katie Thist, and Governor B are joined by DJ and six music presenter, Jam Supernova and Parenting Support Specialist Lorraine Lee to learn how to prepare yourselves and your children for a new edition.

How do you catch yourself? in the moment when you are dealing with big emotions. So I've noticed like when we went to see the scan, I took her to see a scan. And, you know, it's like 4D. And she gets to the face and it's like, and she's like, I'm bored. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And then that night, big meltdown.

You know, she said it was because I had a bite of her fish fingers. I'm not sure. I believe that. Yeah. And then recently we had like a baby shower and then that next day was just like, how hell. Yeah. But in that moment, you know, you don't want to snap. So what might help is having like just a little emotion chart.

And I would only have a couple like maybe a smiley face, a sad face, really clearly smiley, really clearly sad and then a flat one. And after you have something like that, an event like that, which you want to have because it's fun and it's part of having a baby. It's great for you and your partner. Then you might say to her, she can go and sort of get the picture of herself in her face and she can stick it on where she feels she is.

So you might be all happy, but she might stick it on the sad one. So before she has to act it out and show you, I'm sad, I'm angry, I'm mad. She's actually been able to have a way of telling you, this is where I'm at. And you can do it sometimes as a whole family. So there's your face, your partner's face as well.

And sometimes it's useful for you to put your face on the sad one. I'm not feeling great today. So that she knows that it's not all happy, happy, happy, happy, happy, happy. And that when she's sad, she's like spoiling it. It's like everybody has happy and sad things happening. as well. Well, to hear that episode and lots more parenting help and advice, just search for the CBB's parenting download. London Fashion Week draws to a close today and I am sure it has been a whirlwind off a week for my next guest because British Nigerian fashion designer Tolu Koko's autumn winter 26 show

kicked the whole thing off, opening with a performance from Little Sims in the coveted front row King Charles and the designer Stella McCartney. I'm delighted to have Tollu with me in the studio this morning. Welcome. Thank you for having me. I'm delighted to be here. So this show that opened London Fashion Week on Thursday, it was joyful. I think that might be one of the words

that that comes to mind. Gorgeous clothes, live music, dancing, and I'm just wondering how you're feeling this Monday morning as you look back. Yeah, I think I don't think I've really grasped or processed the entirety of it, but I would say one word is definitely

proud. I think I'm really proud of what I was able to achieve collectively. You know, it takes a village to put on a show. It takes a village to tell a story. And I just feel proud that we were able to do that. Let us describe the aesthetic of the clothes. How would you put it into words? I would say one word that describes what I'm trying to do with my brand is autonomy.

I think of clothing as heirloom. And so it's not just about the person who's going to wear the garment now. It's about the many people, many women who will wear that garment. And as a result of that, I think that there is a real consideration to kind of the cut, the feel of the materiality. I really prioritise quality with the clothing so that it can stand the test of time. Let us describe, though, it's bright colours. Yellow is when I even think back of some of the videos I was watching off your show.

What else would you say? So I think that's the thing that's quite interesting because I I say one of the core materials of my collections is denim. So there was actually quite a lot of denim and a lot of black cotton. We actually started the show on a darker note because the theme of this was the different stages of grief and what it looks like to kind of navigate that. But I think the vibrancy of the materials always stands out to a lot of people.

But often when you see the product on the shop floor, it is a lot of the everyday wardrobe elevated for the everyday woman. I saw a little pleated skirts, I saw little hats, and I saw, as I mentioned, a lot of dancing as well, and indeed, King Charles, on the front row. What was that like to have his presence there? I think it was special. It was special, obviously not because we had just a royal visit, but also because of the context of that visit. You know, it was about bringing them to a space that's really close to my heart. It was a working class council estate community. And I think when we often think about the conversation around luxury fashion and inclusion and the stories that are elevated or valued, sometimes it doesn't look like that.

And so it was really important for me not just to have King Charles there, but to have him on my block with the people I love. That's amazing. It's called Survivor's Remorse. So, and you mentioned some of it inspired by grief in some of the pieces that first came out. But tell me more about that term and what it means to you. Yeah, I think it meant a lot of things, not just to me, but to a lot of people. It started off from a place of grief. It's something that I deal with all the time, you know, coming from a working class background, having the privilege of being able to walk through certain doors.

And this concept of social mobility, well, it's like to come from one space and to walk into different spaces. You think about the people and the spaces that have incubated you and giving you that sort of privilege. Like I said, it takes a village. So to even be here showing. on the Fashion Week calendar, there are a lot of people from my community who made sacrifices for that to happen. And often they aren't the people in the room or people who are part of that conversation. So there was a real element of acknowledgement and remorse for the reality of that. I think simultaneously on this idea of grief, the fact that there are many loved ones who I have,

that when I look back at the memories with them, they're very fond. But there's also a simultaneous grief that exists that they're not physically present here to sort of see the fruits of our labour. And yeah, I think there were so many elements of the show, even from having Little Sims and her incredible artistry be part of it. You know, lyrically, she talks about that journey and her music as well. And I was listening to her a lot whilst making the collection. And I found her music really healing. And so it was about not trying to sanitise what that process of grief looks.

like, but embracing it all in its kind of nuanced complexity. Because the 90s and growing up in 90s, in the 90s where you did informs it, as you mentioned, what was that like? It was fantastic. There's something that I find really interesting about this notion as well when we think about kind of social class is that when I was younger, I didn't realize we didn't have a lot of money. And it's because life was so bountiful, but it was the wealth of the community that I was

was in. And you don't realize that until you're older, right? Often it's like a juvenile kind of consciousness that you have. And that was what I really wanted to sort of portray. Like I was watching Clueless, you know, in the 90s and I was listening to Miss Dynamite. And we had those kind of references. You definitely did. I thought the kind of yellow and the plaid and the pleat and the pleat and, you know, on a short skirt. And I was like, yep, I can see where she's coming from with Clueless on that one. Absolutely. And I think that's the thing. as well. It's about showing that there's nuance that exists in these communities. Like

people from these communities have dreams too. They engage with the same things that the wider world engages with. And I think it's about that inclusion piece that was big for me. Part of it was also the kind of remorse that I ever thought that the idea of aspiration

means aspiring to escape a space that actually has incubated you. This idea that success is somewhere here and where you're at is something to escape. I've completely rejected that idea. And so that is very much, I suppose, your British home, you have Nigerian background as well,

which I felt I saw coming through in the colours as well. Yeah, that was a really big thing as well, was to show that actually Britain is a really colourful place. You know, people have come with their histories, with their stories, and that is woven in the complete makeup of our country. And when I think of something such as like a British, or a houndstooth. I also think of it with the nuance of the culture

and the vibrancy that my parents brought with them. And I think it just adds to the beautiful makeup of this country. So you have been supported by the British Fashion Council's New Gen scheme that was to help fund and showcase new designers. I'm wondering your show was graduation from New Gen. How has it been? How are you feeling? You're on the cusp of something now, right?

Yeah, it does. It feels like it's a new chapter. It feels like it's a tide. It feels like, you know, there's an acceleration of something. What that is exactly, I don't know, but I'm kind of embracing it in its totality. Yes, the British Fashion Council New Gen program. It's been an important program in terms of platforming designers. Visibility is everything.

And my entire journey has been kind of through incubation programs that have kind of supported for me to be where I'm at now. And so I think it's a really important resource. When I was even looking through London Fashion Week, in general, you were very visible. I have to say whether I went to Vogue or Marie Claire, wherever I went, there it was popping up on the front pages. And you know, you mentioned Little Sims who performed at your show, but Rihanna, Ariana Grande, Jean-Munet, Naomi Campbell. They've all worn your clothes. What does that feel like when you see them? It feels really special.

It feels really special. I think also because, you know, I think there's a nuance as well with a lot of the women who I've dressed is that a lot of them will come from. an immigrant background. And that was something that when I started, the brand was really significant to me because it was showing this message of inclusion. It was about normalizing, you know, the faces, the spaces, the voices that, you know,

deserve to be elevated and uplifted. And again, back to that kind of conversation about social mobility, I always say that I dress the woman who, I guess, we aspire to, but I also dress the woman who's aspiring, right? And so to be able to have the support of those women, to be able to be a little piece or part of their journey, I think it's about rewriting these narratives,

these communities and these cultures back into history. So we've talked a lot about the creative process, but of course it's a business, right, bottom line. And a tough one, a really tough one. I'm wondering how you found it. We were talking a little bit there. We have a podcast on self-promotion without the cringe. obviously that's something you need to do to stay relevant, to stay visible.

Absolutely, yeah. At the end of the day, fashion is very interesting because you constantly sit at the intersection of being an artist, but also being a business because it's an industry. And so it is also about being able to sell products and maintain a business model and a structure. And that can be really challenging, I think, especially where there's been a shifting year in legislation

when it comes to duties and taxes and, I think also just building a system in place, the idea of employing people being responsible for that. And, you know, fashion is a very, very expensive industry. Everything from, you know, the sourcing side of things to the producing. And like I said, it takes a village. I wouldn't be able to do it without the support, very generous support of many, many people. And I think when you start off as a fashion brand,

you don't have all of the investment, you know. You're often bootstrapping. you're often working several different jobs just to maintain that. And a lot of it is about the maintenance. Now, you do have, it was announced last week, a Topshop collection dropping it in March. They're back on the High Street.

You are their first designer collaboration when that happens. And I understand you used to work in Top Shop yourself back in the day in a very different capacity. I did. I worked the tills and the shop floor. I was folding garments and checking out garments. When I was 16 years old, It was my first job on Oxle's Circus.

So, yeah, it was an honour for them to reach out to me. It was something that I really did take a lot of time to consider because as a designer that centres obviously sustainability, there's a wider conversation about what it is to engage with the High Street. And my biggest thing has always been I want to have important conversations through clothing. And so, you know, it's not always just about preaching to the choir. It's about how do I have a conversation with people who have resource and who have impact. and I'm really proud of the collaboration that we've done.

We had many difficult conversations, but they really volunteered themselves to it. And I think that what we've created is something that, yeah, that can create a framework for a better way of creating. For as much as you can, I mean, difficult conversations over sustainability, I'm thinking. I think it's not just sustainability. I think the reality of it is that when you're a small brand, you have more flexibility, you know, everything down to like how you design,

to the timelines, to the quantities that you produce. And so, yeah, sustainability was a big conversation for us. One of the beautiful things is that Topshop actually have been kind of quite pioneering and ahead with some of the initiatives that they're doing, that, you know, they're not mandated currently. And so that's something that I always will look at to consider to see a space where a brand is at and what their values are sort of aligning with. I think maybe the biggest challenge with anything is just this idea of like mobilising

how do we roll it out? How do we tell a story when perhaps the pace of the high street slightly different? Are you a good negotiator? I like to think I am. I'm thinking if you have a deal with Topshop, perhaps you are.

I like to think I am. I think that's a bigger conversation as well. That's an important part of running a business and realizing that, you know, you need equity. And that's not always monetary. You know, negotiation isn't always about a number. sometimes it's about particular values that you're not willing to compromise on.

And it's also about finding the middle ground. You're not going to have all the answers. And I think when we have the conversation about sustainability and the future of design, at the end of the day, it's an industry, which means it's an ecosystem, which means there's many parties and many stakeholders. And I think I'm definitely at a space and place in my career

where I'm wanting to engage more vocally with more impact. And with anything, it's about, you know, more power to be able to influence things in a positive way. Just in my last 30 seconds or so, what do you do now? Now you've had this massive week. I know the Top Shop is debuting on the 2nd of March. So you've got like a few days maybe in between. How do you kick back? Well, we are preparing for Paris.

So we'll be in Paris for the showrooms. No kickback. No kickback. But, you know, I'm really grateful. I'm really grateful. It's not something to complain about. I'm embracing it. And I'm just taking it a day at a time.

Well, thank you for taking some time out of this day to come in and spend a little bit of time with us. That's Tolu Koker. Thank you for joining us this morning. Just take a look online. You'll see all her beautiful clothes that are there. And good luck with Paris. I'm sure it will be a huge success as well.

Thank you so much. You're so welcome. Now, later today, I mentioned the Sandreforms. It will be published in full. Join me on tomorrow's program to find out what they mean for children, teachers and parents right here, Radio 4, 10 a.m. I will see you then. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Alan Davis, and on BBC Radio 4, we're off into alternate realities mapped out by science.

This is Life Without, where I pull one thread from the magnificent fabric of life and watch what unravels. Scientists around the world would be crying themselves to sleep. A bunch of mammals would be. worrying about where their favourite snack was. And we bring it down to Earth. David Beckham. I can imagine him putting that on the socials. My bees of my girls have all disappeared.

Sometimes we patch it up and crack on. We will survive. We will survive. Humans are ingenious. That is our hallmark party. We should prize above everything else. But sometimes it's bigger than us. Join me to find out just how far the unraveling can go.

Subscribe to. Life Without on BBC Sounds. This is not the future we were promised. Like, how about that for a tagline for the show? From the BBC, this is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics,

your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.