Woman's Hour - Marianne Jean-Baptiste, WSL record signing, India rape case

Episode Date: January 23, 2025

It has been reported that USA women's footballer Naomi Girma has agreed terms to join Chelsea FC for a world record transfer fee of £900,000 or $1.1 million. Anita Rani is joined by Tom Garry, Woman���s Football writer at The Guardian. Nearly three decades ago, Marianne Jean-Baptiste was Oscar nominated for her role in Mike Leigh’s film Secrets & Lies. Now, she’s receiving rave reviews with a stand-out performance in his latest film, Hard Truths. With an almost entirely black cast, Hard Truths explores complex family dynamics. Marianne plays unhappy housewife Pansy. She's in the Woman's Hour studio. As the ceasefire between Israel and Hamas enters its fifth day, we look at the experiences of women and children on both sides. A 19-year-old journalist Malak A. Tantesh living in a camp in Gaza explains her reality now the ceasefire has come in to effect. We also hear from Mandy Damari – mother of Emily, one of the hostages released on Sunday. Have you connected with a loved one after they have died? Maybe it was through a passion they had or introduced you to. Jula connected with her late father by sharing his extensive record collection online. She joins Anita. The rape and murder of a 31-year-old junior doctor in a hospital in Kolkata, India, in August prompted marches and strikes nationwide over safety issues for female doctors. There were calls for her rapist, Sanjay Roy, to be given the death penalty but, when it came to sentencing this week, the judge commented that he had considered all the evidence and did not consider the case to be a "rarest-of-rare" crime and instead sentenced Roy to life imprisonment. We hear from Divya Arya, women’s affairs journalist for BBC Delhi. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Marianne Jean-Baptiste was nominated for an Oscar for her role in Secrets and Lies 30 years ago, the first black British actress to get a nomination. And she may well get another later today for Hard Truths, another Mike Lee film. She's brilliant in it and will be joining me in a moment. Our focus on the experience of women and girls on both sides of the Israel-Gaza

conflict continues today. We hear from a 19-year-old Palestinian woman describing how the ceasefire is affecting her. Also on Woman's Hour, after Jula's father died, she was given his records, all 10,000 of them. She's making her way through them and sharing them with her many followers on Instagram and discovering more about her father in the process. So this morning I'd

like to know what helped you reconnect with someone after they passed away. Did you take up a hobby they were passionate about? Start wearing their clothes or their favourite perfume? Maybe you read their favourite books. For me it was whilst I was writing my memoir, specifically the chapter about my granny and her cooking. I decided to cook her chicken curry recipe whilst I was writing. So I had my laptop open on the kitchen table and I was stirring onions and cumin in butter in a giant metal pan at the same time. And it was like I'd conjured her into the room. Really magical. So please share with me this morning what's made you feel close to someone after they have died. I do look forward to reading those.

The text number is 84844. The email address will go to our website and email us via that. Or the WhatsApp number is 03700 100 444. But first, it's been reported that USA women's footballer Naomi Germer has agreed terms to join Chelsea FC for a world record transfer fee of £900,000. That's 1.1 million US dollars. So smashes the million dollar barrier for a transfer fee in women's football. And check this out for inflation. The record before this was £685,000 paid by Bay FC for Zambia's Raquel Cundinanji in February last year.

So what does this milestone mean for women's football? Well, I'm joined by Tom Gary, women's football writer at The Guardian, to enlighten us. Morning, Tom. Welcome to Women's Hour. So let's start by asking who is Naomi Girma? Good morning, Anita. Well, she has been labelled by Emma Emma Hayes the former Chelsea manager as the best defender she's ever seen she's a very stable and dependable centre-back she plays on the west coast of America for San Diego Wave and she sort of rose to stardom at the World Cup in 2023 when the

Americans went out quite early but she was sort of the star player and in otherwise underperforming and then she helped the Americans win the Olympics in Paris. They won the Olympic gold there as well. So ever since those performances, I suppose, she's been a very sought-after defender. But that's one of the most remarkable things about this. This is a defender who's getting the world record transfer, which is not the usual thing we see.

It's usually the goal scorers and the pacey wingers. But here we're seeing a defender breaking the transfer record. Extraordinary. Why has she broken the million dollar barrier? Why is she worth it? Well, first of all, I think she's widely regarded as the best defensive player available in the market right now.

And Chelsea, for listeners who don't know, are currently without one of their defenders through a season ending injury so they've had a need to sign a defender but I think more than that I think that if when you have the the power that Chelsea have financially in the women's game and you know one of the best defenders in on the planet is available you know they're the team that are going to have the best chance of getting her. I think they've been looking to try and secure their defence for the next four or five

years or so and they see her as the key to that, to winning trophies and trying to win the Champions League. Chelsea women have won the Super League five times in a row. They're beefing up their defence now. Are they going to be unstoppable? There is a risk of that now I suppose because they're already seven points clear at the top of the table and unbeaten this season. And then they've gone and signed one

of the best players in the world. So I suppose their rivals could be quite worried. But I think what really strikes me about this is the rapid rise of the inflation. You mentioned it in your introduction. We only have to go back about 10 years to when the British transfer record was broken by Chelsea signing Fran Kirby, who has played for the Lionesses. Listeners might know her. And that was a fee of around £50,000 or £60,000. So in 10 years, we've gone up, what, sort of nearly 20 times that amount, which is a rapid rise and it's extraordinary.

Which is super exciting because it's happening in our lifetimes. We're watching it all unfold. But back to Chelsea and this Super League, you know, they've won it five times. They've got their defence has been beefed up even more. If they continue to win and they're unstoppable and untouchable, is it going to make the game boring? Yeah, great question.

There is a real risk of that. I think so far that hasn't happened because even though they've won the five straight titles in a row, they've been winning really narrowly. The title has gone down to the final day of the season. So even though they've been dominant, it's carried on being competitive. But there is a risk of that, yes, because this will only widen the gap between Chelsea and the rest. And certainly they've also got the Australian star Sam Kerr to come back from injury as well, who only make them stronger.

So there is certainly a fear if you're a fan of their rival clubs that Chelsea will continue to dominate for many, many years to come. So what about football teams generally? How are they funded? Because Chelsea and Arsenal have big women's teams. Is that because of the success of their men's sides? But also, I mean, Liverpool has a very successful men's team, you know, top of the Premier League, but their female team isn't as dominant. So what's happening and where's this money coming from? Great question.

It really sort of depends on the ambition of the ownership, really. A club like Liverpool, for example, have had a motto or mantra of wanting to sort of spend within their means for the women's team and roughly kind of break even and sort of grow the women's team slowly and sustainably rather than throwing money at winning it whereas i suppose the the chelsea and arsenal and other clubs like barcelona their attitude has been well we can afford this because it's very small change compared

to the the cost of running a successful men's team so we want to win things and uh we're going to try and invest and sort of the chicken and the egg argument that they're going for the money first to try and get ahead of the game, I suppose. But what it does create is a huge disparity because in the women's game, because so few teams are professional in England,

you only have to go down to roughly the 30th or 31st, 32nd team in the pyramid when you start getting towards semi-professional. And there are teams in the top 40 in England who are paying subs to play. So to go to the team at the top, Chelsea spending over a million dollars on one player, just gives you an example, I think, of the broad gap from a club, Liverpool Feds, you know, grassroots team in the third tier to Chelsea.

It's a really quick distinction from top to bot to third tier. Well, we're going to see it happen, aren't we? We'll see how this all plays out. On to something slightly different, but same, same. What do you make of more powerful women in football? What do you think the impact of having two women, Gabby Logan and Kelly Cates, presenting match of the day will have on the women's game?

Oh, I think that's a really good move to outstanding broadcasters who richly deserve that opportunity and Mark Chapman as well. I think that's good for visibility for women's and girls players, particularly for young girls sitting down at television at the weekend.

That sort of, you know, you can be it if you can see it sort of attitude. I think that will help inspire a lot of people. But much more than that, I think they just richly deserve the opportunity for being very good broadcasters. So I hope and I expect that it's been done around their broadcasting ability entirely rather than any sort of agenda to try and inspire. I think it's just they just deserve the chance.

And Tom, you've got your ear to the ground in women's football. Can we expect any more big signings? Yeah, actually, incredibly this morning we heard that a former World Cup winner from Japan, Saki Kumagai, who won the World Cup 2011, a big legend in Japan and she plays for Roma at the moment in Italy. We believe she's going to sign for a second tier English club at London City Lionesses which is quite a shock that's one of the biggest names in the sport really joining a second division English team so that could happen as early as this afternoon so uh really exciting if you're a fan of London City Lionesses but I think um more generally the big moves will be in the summer we're keeping an eye on the England and the Lionesses Kira Walsh possibly moving from Barcelona back to England.

I think that will happen in the summer, we suspect, when her contract runs out. But yeah, it never goes dull and it's always exciting to follow as a reporter. Wonderful. Tom, Gary, thank you so much

for joining us to bring us up to speed with that women's football writer at The Guardian. I thought his line was going to cut out just as he was going to reveal the name, but thankfully we got there. 84844 is the number to text. I'm asking you what item or what passion or hobby have you taken up after someone close to you has passed away that reminds you of them

and makes you feel closer to them? And someone has said, every time I make marmalade, I feel close to my mum who taught me to cook and to create um 84844 is that text number now nearly three decades ago marianne jean-baptiste was oscar nominated for her role in mike lee's brilliant film secrets and lies peckham girl done good now she's receiving rave reviews with a standout performance in her latest film hard. With an almost entirely black cast, Hard Truths explores complex family dynamics. Marianne plays unhappy housewife Pansy. She's agoraphobic, hypochondriac and paranoid about animals, birds, insects, plants and flowers.

She's also extremely grumpy, argumentative and confrontational with everyone, especially her plumber husband, Kirtley, and her unemployed son, Moses, whom she thinks is wasting his life. Here is Pansy and her sister, Chantelle, and her unemployed son, Moses, whom she thinks is wasting his life. Here is Pansy and her sister, Chantelle, played by the brilliant Michelle Austin, who's come round to cut Pansy's hair. 22-year-old man and he's still eating peanut butter and jam sandwiches.

I talk to him until I'm tired. I say, Moses, what are you doing with your life? Where do you see yourself in 25 years' time? I'm sick of it. Do you want me to talk to him? And say what? I don't know. See if I can help him. What, are you trying to insinuate yourself into my family? Insinuate how? You wouldn't like it if I talked to your girls like that. And said what? Why are you going out exposing your belly to the world? What are you doing dressed up in a squeeze-up, tie-top, yoga pants and you're not even in the gym? You wouldn't like it. You wouldn't like it at all. Some sisters are close, you know.

Some sisters confide in each other. You can confide in me. No, if I don't call you, you don't call me. I call you. No, I have to call you and say, oh, Chantel, my hair needs doing. Oh, Chantel, my back is hurting. Can you pick me up a couple of things from Kilburn?

I call you. Hey, put down them scissors. You're getting aggressive. Hard Truths is released in cinemas on the 31st of January and I'm delighted to say Marianne joins me now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. Was Pansy, I mean it brings it all back. She's very affecting and she stayed with me and she will for a long time. A gift of a part to play but I imagine very challenging as well. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. But just rewarding, you know, being able to sort of explore that character and dig deep. Who is she? Tell us about her.

Well, she's a woman that is in a lot of pain. She's not happy. That's an understatement. You know, she doesn't like being out in the world. She doesn't like people. She's in a lot of pain and she doesn't understand the source of it so you know it's a headache or a backache or you know an upset stomach you know it all manifests itself in in different ways um it's funny because when i watched the the opening scene i instantly thought oh i recognize that woman it's every hassled Indian mother I've ever met but but it's not but obviously then we we see there's a lot more going on with Pansy um and it's not just one scene it's the whole the whole film she's incredibly tormented we as you say there's a lot

of pain not a normal depiction of a woman we see on screen no which I think is great. Absolutely. You know, I mean, it struck me when I saw it for the first time because, you know, when you do a Mike Lee film, you don't know anything about any of the stuff that you're not in. So when you watch it, you're actually seeing the film and understanding what happens for the first time. And I thought, I've never seen a woman depicted in this way. There's always some sort of turnaround, you know, something happens and then she changes and becomes a nice woman, you know. And that doesn't happen necessarily in this film.

Why do you think we don't see women like Pansy? Well, I think there's a lot of societal pressure for us to, you know, you've heard it when you're walking down the street and you're just thinking about something else and some bloke shouts over, I'll smile, love. Oh, why do we have to smile? Yeah. And be nice, you know. So you were back together with Mike Lee 30 years after Secrets and Lies. We have to ask you about working with him, the process. Was it an instant yes when he called?

Absolutely. There's no script? No. There's no plot? Is there a role? How does it work? Well, he just sort of says, look, I'm doing a film. I want you to be in it.

I don't know what it's about. I don't know what you'll be doing in it. You won't know anything about what anybody else is doing, but we'll have fun and you're sort of like absolutely you're terrified but excited to to you know go on the adventure with him and discover what what it's going to be fascinating I guess we will never know because we're never going to be able to explore that experience. All we know is that the end product is outstanding and so real. So talk about, we've heard a monologue there from Pansy.

They're absolutely brilliant. Very funny. Her particular, there's a rant about babies having pockets. Yeah. And why do babies need pockets? Right. How much of those monologues came from you? Well, they all come from me, but it's, it's, it's also comes from

Mike because we've sat down together and we've created this character in, in finite detail. I mean, every detail of her life, you know, you're just getting to see the tip of the iceberg and there's all this other stuff underneath. So when it comes to improvising,'s like the he's he's making an input you know what I mean he's sort of given her all of the disappointments and the rejections and the heartbreak and all that stuff so it's just like you're it's almost like you're programmed and then you go you improvise all the stuff comes out and he starts going okay OK, by the time we're getting near filming, we improvise. And he sort of breaks it all down and says, OK, could she say this instead of that? And you say yes or no.

And he goes, well, maybe this. And, you know, then you start really structuring it. So it's a very tight script, if you like. Although the actors never see the script,'s like you know very distilled how fascinating and satisfying I imagine yeah absolutely so who were you drawing on because there was something about her and she's so extreme and we'll talk about kind of what's happening with her in her mental health in a moment but um like I said the opening scene I felt instantly I could recognize some women in my life yeah where were you what kind

were the people that you were drawing on was experiences that you've had was how much of it is you well to begin with when you first work with him you have to go in with a list of people you know from real life so so that your character is based on a real person you go through this list he sort of strikes names off it, and then you end up with about five characters or five people. And then you sort of merge those people. But then you go to, you start again, and you start building a new character with certain character traits from those people until it's a completely different person do you know what I mean so you're drawing on her experiences what her school life was like how she got on with her

mother how she gets on with her sister you know her work experiences you know because in the film you don't see her going she's a housewife but in the past she'd had jobs so we'd worked out all that stuff so that's really what you're pulling from you're not necessarily pulling from life at that point you're you're pulling from her life that you've created I've read that you were very specific and had a say in everything including what was in her cupboards totally the chili sauce and the brand of chilli sauce was noted in my household. We clocked it straight away. We're like, that's the tastiest one.

The film is set post-pandemic in London, centres around Pansy, her family. It's a brilliant cast of black women. And I want to talk about the contrast in the homes because Pansy's home is very sterile cold she's constantly cleaning it her sister's home is vibrant full of life and her two daughters lots of laughter how do these contrasting environments reflect the characters well basically you can see the the love of life the warmth the generosity in Chant's flat, who is played beautifully by Michelle Austin.

There's laughter in that house. So there's the colours, the plant. Things are living in that house, as opposed to Pansy's house, which is kind of sterile and flat. It's dead. Do you know what I mean? It's almost like a white noise that just rips through the place.

She's so, because she's got so much pain and she's so tormented, she's so angry, she's rude to absolutely everybody. Why do you think her family put up with her? I think because we do. Yeah. You know, everybody's got that aunt or uncle or cousin or friend that is a bit special. And, you know, you just sort of swerve them or you, you know, you just go, oh, that's just Norman.

Do you know what I mean? He's just like, he's always been like that. He's just, you know, we don't generally kind of like investigate and go, you know, what's going on with you? Are you OK? like investigate and go you know what's going on with you are you okay um and i think that we do we just we just put up with it we just i think for me the observation must be something between the family certainly a sister that they you know when you just feel like you just understand someone's pain i felt the sister you know they'd lost their mother. We're not going to give the plot away. But behind all the arguing, it seems like she's suffering from depression. Oh, certainly.

Yeah, but it's not specifically spoken about in the film. No, because I don't think it would be. You know, I don't think their generation, you know, now everybody has a diagnosis for something or you know we're very aware of mental health and looking after ourselves now for women at this age i think that you know it would be something new for her to even contemplate because she's lived so long in this state that it's just the way she is. It's just the way she lives, how she copes.

She thinks this is her lot, you know, and is angry about it and frustrated about it. But that's her life. Yeah. She's such an extreme character, but you really do find yourself sympathising with her. Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating. Very well done on that.

That is the humanity in her. What was it like working with an almost entirely black cast oh it was lovely it was so nice it was like a celebration of our culture do you know what I mean because as you said it's a really collaborative process so normally you don't sit down with a production designer and talk about what the house would be like in such detail. You know, the colours, you know, the type of carpets and stuff like that that would run through. I remember talking to Susie Davis, who's brilliant and saying, you know, she'd have cream on white carpet. And she was like, yeah, but that's not very practical. It'll get dirty. And I was like, not in Pansy's house.

Do you know what I mean? It would be pristine. And so you've got that, the food in the cupboards and stuff, you know, really sort of receptive and wanting to get it absolutely right and authentic. And also working with Mike, and he's very curious and interested in humanity, you know, and the human condition. So he was like wanting to know about the culture, the traditions.

So it was really nice, really nice. We didn't have stuff imposed on us, you know. And what was it like being back in London? Lovely. I had a great time. On home turf. Yeah, it was really nice. Because after you were nominated for Secrets and Lies, 30 years ago, working with Mike Lee for the brilliant character Hortense, I personally thought, where did you go?

You went off to LA. I mean, very successful career out there. Why did you decide to do that? Because I was getting more work. I was getting work, successful career out there. Why did you decide to do that? Because I was getting more work. I was getting work, period, out there. So it just made sense to go, OK, this flying back and forth. You know, I just had a couple of kids and it was like, this isn't sustainable. So it just seemed sensible to just make the move.

You were Oscar nominated for that role. We're going to hear it later today, aren't we? I believe so. Some people tell me. Are you hopeful? Oh, yes. Yeah, very hopeful. That would be great.

It puts you in an amazing category, actually. If you do get a second nomination, because there will only then be five other black female actresses who were nominated for multiple awards. You're in great company. I'm sure you know this. Whoopi Goldberg, Viola Davis, Octavia Spencer and Angela Bassett. And then it'll be you. Wowza.

Also, that film had a huge impact because they say that secrets and lots of people say that secrets and lies inspired them to find their own birth mothers after that film. How does it feel that a film that you've created, a piece of art, has that impact? It's wonderful. I think that's why you do what you do. You really want to move people, reach people, touch people and make some kind of change or shift. A hard truths screening in New York, a woman came to the front of the stage after the Q&A and said, I want to thank you because after Secrets and Lies, I've contacted my daughter, my birth daughter, and now I have my own Hortense.

And that is so moving to hear wow you know and that you know that is so moving to hear that that something that you were part of had that kind of impact and again with this film you know this woman came crying I was in Copenhagen and said I'm going to call my mum because she's pansy and she you know I didn't see the pain. I just saw the anger. But this film's helped me see that she's in pain. So this is all really good stuff. It is really very, very powerful stuff. Yeah. Are you hopeful that there'll be more work for you to get over here now?

Yeah, sure. I mean. Yeah, it would be lovely. More than, yes. Yeah. Yeah, it would be lovely. More than, yes. Yeah. Yeah, it would be lovely. Yeah, really nice. I also, I need to read this out actually because, and it's a quote I got,

I'm slightly obsessed with the fact that you're mates with Angela Bassett. Oh, right. Is it true you go salsa dancing together? We do all sorts of dancing together. Usually in my kitchen. Okay, that's excellent. This is good to know. And it's an article for Vogue

no less how was that how was it that was so that was a lot of fun that was I mean I never thought in a million years I'd be in Vogue and here you are and Angela Bassett says Marion is so full of irrepressible joy and creativity that I'd be completely jealous if I went utterly in love with her as my sister and friend. What a beautiful thing to say. It's a gorgeous thing to say. I mean, it's a love fest. You know, she's incredibly funny, you know, and sweet. And I'm always trying to get her to do some kind of comedy

because, I mean, nobody ever sees that side of her, really. But, yeah, we've been friends for a long time now, probably going on 20 years. I kind of want to be in that room when the two of you are salsa dancing in your kitchen. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you and I want to wish you all the success with this. It's an incredible performance and everything crossed. Oh, thank you.

This afternoon, the nomination and the award. What's next? Are you resting now? Well, I'm doing all this, you know, just trying to get this film out there and get people to see it. And then I'm going to have a bit of a rest, I think. Yeah. Yeah, you deserve it. Wonderful. Thank you for coming in to speak to us. Yeah, thank you. Marianne Jean-Baptiste and Hard Truths is released in cinemas on the 31st of January. And it really is an incredible watch.

Thank you. Thank you. Lots of you getting in touch with the things that make you connect with people who have passed away. Annie says, I miss my son, Ant. He died by suicide in 2022. He was the entrepreneur ideas man, the deep one, the philosopher with new ways to see life when I was stuck. I wear his beanie hat to help me think

um and annette says to reconnect with my dad i put on his leather gloves i loved his big hands i can remember holding his hand walking with him right back when i was a child and he still took my hand even as an even as an adult walking with him his old gloves had molded to the shape of his hands and it's strangely comforting to put them on. Very moving. 84844 is the text number. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

Now, the fragile ceasefire between Israel and Hamas enters its fifth day, but there is still uncertainty about what lies ahead. Yesterday, it was reported by the Palestinian Health Ministry that 10 Palestinians have been killed and nearly 40 injured by Israeli airstrikes in the occupied West Bank. The conflict has been a prolonged and devastating struggle with significant human costs on both sides. According to the Hamas-run health ministry, more than 46,000 Palestinians have been killed. The death toll among Israelis is said to stand at approximately 1,706. Since the ceasefire on Sunday, three female Israeli hostages, Romi Gonen, Doron Steinbrecher and Emily Damari have been released by Hamas. They are the first of 33 hostages expected to be freed over the next six weeks. Four more female hostages are due to be freed this weekend. In exchange, Israel released 90 Palestinian prisoners,

all women and children. Both sets of releases were met with emotional reunions and celebrations. Speaking at a press conference earlier this week, Mandy Damari, mother of Emily Damari, spoke about Emily's recovery. I'm delighted to be able to tell you that Emily is in high spirits on the road to recovery. As you will have seen last night, she is an amazingly strong and resilient young woman. On behalf of Emily and the rest of our family, there are so many people who deserve a special thank you for working to bring her home. To the soldiers who fought and gave their lives on October 7th and every day since. To the Israeli government, President Biden, President Trump

and leaders and negotiators around the world for making our dream come true. To the British government for their support during this nightmare. To the Spurs football fans who sang Emily's name. And to the thousands of volunteers everywhere who put up stickers, held up posters, wore yellow ribbons, went to rallies and said prayers. To the medical staff here at Sheba Hospital who are making sure that Emily is well taken care of, and to the thousands of people who have messaged our family in the last 24 hours.

All of you have played a role in bringing Emily home. Thank you from the bottom of our hearts. I have one last request for you all. Please keep on fighting for the remaining 94 hostages who need to come home. There are too many other families who are waiting to hug their loved ones or bring them back for a proper burial. As I've been saying over the past number of months the hostages in Gaza must have access to humanitarian aid while they are waiting to be released. Mandy Damari here on Women's Hour we've been focusing on the experiences

of women and girls on both sides of the conflict. On Monday's programme, we spoke to Sharon Lifshitz, whose father, Oded, is one of the remaining Israeli hostages who's still being held captive by Hamas, a prescribed terrorist group by the UK government. She knows he was alive in Gaza in November 2023, but has heard no news of him since. Today, we hear from Malak A. Tantesh, a 19-year-old Palestinian woman who currently is living in a camp in Khan Yunis with her parents and four younger siblings. Over the past 15 months, they've been displaced five times. The family hopes to return home, but are unsure when, as their house has been destroyed. She shared with Womansoa how the conflict has impacted her and her family.

My life has changed dramatically since moving to the camp. It has become hard and exhausting. The suffering we endure cannot be described with words. All the words that express pain, fatigue, and loss fail to capture what we are living through. I never imagined that my biggest concern would be finding water and food in my entire life. New challenges and difficulties seem to rise constantly. With the latest being the unbearable cold, honestly it feels like I am sleeping on a pile of ice. Even though we have more blankets, heavier clothing if compared to other displaced people in the camp. I have a deep fear now waking up to find that one of my family members died from coldness. All my family of seven members live in the same small makeshift tent that houses everything. However, despite all these challenges, my family

and I have somehow managed to adapt to this way of living by sharing responsibilities and helping one another. One of the most difficult moments I've experienced, which deeply affected me and left me with huge deep pain, was when I woke up on a very cold morning and was washing my hands and face in the yard. I was surprised when a little boy entered the tent yard, barefooted, light-clothed, and trembling from cold. He started begging me for a piece of bread. At that time, everyone was suffering from a of a floor and extreme hunger we only had seven loaves

of bread that day which was just sufficient for my family members of seven i took one of those and gave it to him, watching as he walked away slowly with blue lips while shivering from cold. That day, I felt an immense sadness for him. I waited for him to return to my tent all the next days so I could offer him more bread but he has never returned. I wish if I could offer him more bread that day. I wish if I followed him to where he was located to present him some more. Before the war, my life was simple but filled with joy. I lived in a modest house in Bethlehem with my family and my two eldest grandparents. All my siblings were attending school. I was just starting my university when the war erupted. My family is famous for a swimming

initiative that my father started 25 years ago. I started helping my mother leading the female female swimming section at an early age alongside my younger sisters and a team of young female swimming instructors offering girls and women a real chance to learn swimming at the conservative Gaza. We had a huge paradise like orchards that was planted with all most delicious fruits which we used to spend our most beautiful moments and share our time with uncles, cousins and friends. Our life was truly wonderful in every sense of the word. I was the first in my family to attend university, and I was eager to explore new cafes and restaurants on my own for the first time. But then the war began and all that anticipation vanished as everything around was destroyed. I had enrolled in the College of Health Sciences,

seeking a degree in physical therapy with a clear vision for my future. But with the outbreak of the war, my dreams and plans were turned about. I am sure every first-year student can relate to that feeling of hope, which unfortunately suddenly was slipped away. I found myself drawn to journalism benefiting from my English language skills that I developed earlier with the help of my father. Once universities reopened, I made my mind to shift to a degree of journalism and being a voice to the voiceless. Like the rest of the people in Gaza, we would need new tents because the ones we are living in have worn out. However, what I and everyone in Gaza, especially the

children, truly need is psychological support after the 15 months of stress, displacement, and loss we have endured. My life has changed, and will never be the same but still I feel I have grown wiser after enduring this war. I stay optimistic by giving hope that this will end and that I am capable to overcome this time of difficulty. 19-year-old Malak, who is currently living in a camp in Khan Yunus. And if you wish, you can listen to our interview on Monday with Sharon Lifshitz, whose father, Oded, is currently held captive by Hamas by searching for Woman's Hour on BBC Sounds. And you can keep up with the latest on this story on the BBC News website.

Now, I've been asking you this morning about the thing that brought you closer to someone after they have passed away and your messages are coming through. I took on a love of horses and Lady Gaga in honour of my friend Lara, who passed away when we were barely out of our teens. I went horse riding for the first time to make sure her bravery and passion wasn't forgotten and her friendship continues to influence me now. Well the reason we're discussing this this morning is because of my next guest Jula is 24 and she lives in Canada and has been documenting her father's extensive record collection to her nearly 400,000 followers on Instagram. Her father who died a few years ago was a huge music fan and now Jule is not only exploring the collection herself but inviting others along for the journey too. Welcome to Woman's Hour Jule. Hi it's so nice to be here thanks for having me. We are delighted and we know it's the middle of the night so we're

extra appreciative that you've joined us. I think we should start by asking about your dad Richard who was a massive music fan tell us about him what was he like yeah um well he was a big music collector and lover obviously he loved poetry he was an English teacher and he also played the accordion and the guitar sounds like a fun dad did you share lots of music with you did you listen to music together a lot all the time. I don't have a memory of him that doesn't include music, almost. He loved talking about music or playing music. He was obsessed, an obsessed music listener. And then sadly, he died a few years ago.

And after a period of time, as I understand, you were then given his 10,000 strong record collection what did that feel like? At first it was really overwhelming I wasn't really sure if I wanted to keep the records or if I wanted to sell them but after some time has passed, I was lucky enough the record stayed in my family home. So after some time passed, I moved back into my mom's house and I ended up putting my bed into the room that had the records in them. I just kind of spent every day staring at them and thinking about my father and I decided I wanted to start listening to them. What was that like? What was that like sleeping surrounded by your dad's record collection? At first, it was really

overwhelming again. And I was really confronted with just the physicality of these records and the fact that they hadn't been touched for so many years um and then I just kind of realized like I'm the kind of next to what I have left of him and I decided to just continue my connection with him through through these records when did you decide you were going to start sharing the kind of listening parties aren't they on Instagram yeah I like thinking about them as listening parties it I decided back in the end of August that I wanted to record on Instagram and TikTok my friend and I were having a conversation one night we were sitting in my room and we were listening to a record and I was telling my friend how much I miss talking about records or talking about music with my father, as he was always somebody who I talked about music with. And how much like I was listening

to the records, but after I would feel kind of empty or wished I had somebody to talk to about them. My friend suggested that I start posting on Instagram and TikTok. Maybe there would be a couple of people who wanted to talk to me about the records. And that's kind of how this all started. I can relate. There's nothing better, more satisfying than listening to a record with someone who's listening to it like you are. And you can just nerd out over it. And you've created this family of followers who feel the same way so what what genres are we talking about tell us a bit more about his collection what have you got i mean it's 10 000 there's a lot but give us an overview what what sorts of what was your dad's vibe what

was his taste like honestly i'm still discovering his vibe it's always like it's way more eclectic than I had ever imagined I mean there's everything there's jazz there's orchestral there's a lot of polish music there's soundtracks there's progressive rock hard rock everything you could you could dream of. What's the actual reaction like from your many, many followers? I have such a really nice community of people. My followers are so positive and everybody in my comment section are just telling me little facts about the albums or times in their life that they first listened to it. A lot of people are listening along with me, so they'll give me their first reactions to the albums.

And there's a lot of love and support, honestly. I'm super lucky. And what's the ambition with the page? You're going to go through all 10,000 records? Yeah, I mean, I hope so. That's the plan right now. Maybe I'll make some longer-form content, but at the moment I'm just enjoying

this and enjoying listening to the music the most and you're making your own music as well yeah I make experimental music and maybe one day a record that you can add to your dad's your own records yes exactly we'll be following you Jule, thank you so much for joining me to speak to me about that. Thank you. And thank you so much for having me. And I really like your prompt that you had in your air today. It was so cute listening along to what people were sending in. Oh, yes.

There's lots more messages coming in. We'll be reading some of those out before the end of the program. Jule, thank you. Inspired us to ask other people the same question uh what another one here from someone saying maybe i should have but i read maybe i shouldn't have but i read some of my mum's old diaries and i found she'd written out a sonnet by shakespeare i'm an actor and i never knew she was so into poetry or plays sometimes i trace her handwriting with my finger and it's like she's guiding my hand it's really nice 84844 now to india where

the rape and murder of 31 year old junior doctor at her place of work a hospital in calcutta prompted marches and strikes nationwide over safety issues for female doctors it soon became a talking point for women's safety in general there were calls for her rapist sanjay roy to be given the death penalty but when it came to sentencing this, the judge commented that he'd considered all the evidence and did not consider the case to be a rarest of rare crime and instead sentenced Roy to life imprisonment. Before going on air today, I spoke to Divya Arya, women's affairs journalist for BBC Delhi. Some of what we discuss may be distressing. I began by asking her to outline what happened in this case. So this is about the rape and murder of a 31-year-old postgraduate trainee doctor in August last year. Her half-naked, severely injured body was found in the seminar room of the

College Come Hospital where she was at the end of her 36-hour night shift, she was resting in that seminar room. And that's where she was attacked and her body was found. And it led to a huge outcry. The doctors in that hospital went on a strike and then they were joined by doctors nationwide and medical services came to a standstill for a while. There was a lot of pressure on the police, the local police, to act. All of this happened in the eastern state of West Bengal in its capital city, Kolkata, but the ripple effect was felt nationwide. The police did arrest a civic volunteer, and he is the man who has now been found guilty and sentenced to prison term for life. The judge commented that this wasn't the

rarest of the rare case. What did he mean by that? And how common is this in India? So for the crime of rape and murder, the maximum punishment is capital punishment, the death sentence. And for any case to get that punishment, it has to be the rarest of rare. That's kind of the benchmark. And any judge who hands out the death sentence will judge the merits of the case, the crime, all the extenuating circumstances to decide whether they are going to give a life imprisonment sentence, which is what they did in this case, or go for the death penalty. And that's what the judge argued. He said it is a heinous case, but he has to think of life and liberty of the convict. And he feels that it should be a case where the life imprisonment is awarded.

Sorry, what's the reaction been to that? So the state government where this took place, the chief minister is a woman, Mamta Banerjee. And even when this attack took place, she came under a lot of criticism for being a woman, but not criticizing, but for not calling out the case immediately, for not taking immediate action. Her police force was criticized a lot at that time. In fact, the public outcry meant that the investigation was moved from the local police to the federal investigating agency. So this time, once the verdict came out, she was very quick to say that this was a lean sentence and that it should be upgraded to the death penalty. But she was not the only one. Doctors immediately protested outside the hospital

asking for the death penalty. The victim's family, her parents said that they feel the investigation wasn't up to the mark, that he was not the only man involved, that they feared it was actually a case of gang rape. And the Federal Investigative Agency, which is called the Central Bureau of Investigation or CBI here, did not do a good job. And they did not find the other culprits. They did not find the evidence that would lead them to the other culprits, and they felt their sentence was lenient. Following all of that, the CBI has now approached the High Court to review the lower court's decision to hand a life imprisonment and upgrade it to a death penalty. In the meantime, what has changed? What conversations have been taking place

and has any change been implemented, particularly for doctors? I mean, Divya, you will have spent time talking to female doctors in particular. What have they told you about the environment that they have to work in? So doctors in India are often at the receiving end of patients' families' anger. Medical services here are not up to the mark, especially in the public sector. In government-run hospitals, they are overburdened. The doctors are fewer, and the load of patients is very, very high. Infrastructure is also poor. So often, a family of patients feel dissatisfied. They feel they've paid too much. They're not getting what they deserve. And that anger quite often just spills over onto doctors. And there is the high rate of

doctors getting attacked by patients' families. So that is almost a gender neutral phenomena in India and has been there for a while. But in this case, because this happened to be an act of sexual violence that added almost a new demand to what the doctors have been raising for many years now. And because of the nationwide protests, a national task force has been formed to give recommendations to enhance the safety of doctors. For example, during night shifts, where there are no proper resting areas. Also, like this doctor did a 36-hour night shift. So with those kind of hours, you may even need a break during your shift. And then how do you ensure the safety of doctors? But in some ways,

it's important to remember that she was not attacked by a stranger. She was actually attacked by a civic volunteer at the hospital. So it was somebody who knew her, possibly, and who knew the whereabouts of doctors. So it is not just about external safeguards that may save or keep women safe from intruders, but it's also making the workplace safe. And that, many people would argue, is not just by the, you know, maybe putting CCTV cameras or some kind of oversight, but also with the culture change, you know, with a message going out very strongly that this is not acceptable, that men should not feel entitled, especially to attack women who are in workplaces, because when women step out of homes in India, some men would perceive them to be more available. Whereas women who are homemakers or, you know, are restricting their life or limiting their life to taking care of family would be considered, you know, on a higher pedestal, more pure compared to those who step out and are considered available by some men. So it's

working more on those lines. And it's not the first time that there's been a very high profile rape case in India, where predominantly women, but all people have taken to the streets to protest. What changes can you see are being made? You know, there was a sense of deja vu because this happened in August and the 15th of August is India's Independence Day. And the previous evening, on the eve of that, there were huge candlelit protests about this case, led by men and women both across the country.

And it reminded me, especially because I covered the last time something like this caused such a huge outcry, which was in December 2012 in the capital city, Delhi, where, again, a young woman who was out to see a film with her friend was attacked when they were returning on a bus. And it was brutal. It was a gang rape and she died of her injuries. And everybody sort of came up in arms. And the biggest change that that brought was the introduction of death penalty in cases of heinous rape. But as time has passed, one thing that women's groups said at that time has almost rung true. They had opposed the death penalty, saying that that itself doesn't become a deterrent

to reduce crime or stop crime against women. Like I was saying, it is the more systemic changes in the way women are valued. That is what will stop crime against them. It's not that other things weren't done. They are police stations with special teams that are meant to deal with women who walk into the police station to register crimes of violence against them. More accountability has been placed on police and doctors if they relegate their duty to record statements from victims of violence or taking evidence when they go to the hospital and the way doctors are supposed to treat them. So there are small changes, incremental changes, but it all boils down to how easy is it for a woman to decide whether she wants to pursue her studies,

get married, have children. You know, that autonomy over their own lives extends to their bodily autonomy as well. And that has been an ongoing conversation since the 13 years when we saw this bad incident in Delhi. And I don't want to be pessimistic and say nothing has changed. We talk more about sexual violence. We talk more about domestic violence, which is even more rampant and less reported. We talk about sexual harassment, which we were not even recognising as a crime against women. It was called Eve teasing for a long time. The word sexual harassment wasn't even, the phrase sexual harassment wasn't even used. It is now codified in law. So there are small incremental steps, but it will take a while for these significant change to happen.

Unfortunately, media coverage also moves from one gruesome case to another. And a sustained conversation on the issue is missing. And it's difficult also to get audience interested in a sustained conversation. But more of that will certainly help. Divya, Aria there. And if you feel impacted by anything you've heard just now, you can find support on the BBC Action Line website. So many of your moving messages coming in about things that connect you to your loved ones after they have died. I'm going to read a couple out here. As you speak, I'm doing up the doll's house that my father made for me as a child. It's going to my granddaughter and is a

lovely connection as he died two years ago and she won't remember meeting him. And David says, my late mother had to leave her native East Prussia as a refugee in 1945. Among the few possessions she was able to carry were four pieces of amber. This washes up on the beaches there, which is where my mother found them as a little girl. I have those precious pieces and I often contemplate where they came from and what went through, what they went through to end up with me. They are priceless to me. Thank you, David, for that message. And thanks to all of you who've been getting in touch

with your very moving messages. Do join me tomorrow for more Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Matthew Side and Sideways, my podcast from BBC Radio 4, brings you stories of seeing the world differently. From that moment on, I feel like my life

and the way that I view life itself just shifted, literally. Stories about the ideas that shape our lives. If a missile had come down and killed us all, it wouldn't have mattered. It was just me in a moment of bliss in the middle of a war zone. Stories about everything from the ethics of using AI to simulate conversations with the dead to viewing decay as a vehicle for rebirth. Listen to Sideways, first on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.