Woman's Hour - Marina Abramovic, GB News, Dehenna Davison MP, Taylor Swift Symposium

Episode Date: September 28, 2023

Marina Abramović, the world renowned Serbian performance artist, refers to herself as the “godmother of performance art”. Her pioneering work explores the relationship between the performer and the audience; one of her works saw her sit across from each visitor, staring into their eyes. She has repeatedly subjected herself to physical and mental extremes, including exhaustion, pain and even the possibility of death. Now at the Royal Academy of Arts in London, she presents key moments from her career and talks them through with Emma.A comment made by the broadcaster and self-styled anti-woke campaigner, Laurence Fox, about political reporter, Ava Evans, on GB News on Tuesday has led to his suspension. Now the man he was speaking to, Dan Wootton, has also been suspended as a presenter on the channel. Ava called the comments "really nasty" and said she has since received threats online. Emma speaks to Rebecca Whittington, the committee lead on this issue for the organisation Women in Journalism and Online Safety Editor at Reach PLC.Dehenna Davison MP was part of the ground breaking group of Conservative MPs who in 2019, won dozens of seats in former Labour areas known as the Red Wall. She was elected by voters in Bishop Auckland in the North East as their first ever Conservative MP and was the first Conservative female MP to reveal she is bi-sexual. Last year she made it into the Government as a junior minister in Michael Gove’s Levelling Up Department, but despite this promotion and being see as one of the most energetic and active of the new MPs, in November 2022 she announced she wouldn’t be standing for election again. Last week she stood down as a minister, citing chronic migraine as the cause. Emma Barnett talks to Dehenna about her health, her life in politics and her plans for the future. A university in Melbourne is preparing to host the first ever Taylor Swift Symposium, or Swiftposium as it’s being called, with researchers gathering to discuss the singer through a variety of subjects. Dr Jennifer Beckett is one of the organisers behind the event and Emma to discuss the plans for early 2024.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Emma Harth

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. On today's programme, a voice you don't often hear and some rare perspectives too. From the godmother of performance art, as she calls herself, Marina Abramovich. Naked doors, disgruntled art fans, violence and pure hot love. All of that coming shortly. I'll also be joined by the former Conservative Minister on battling migraines and political battles, Deanna Davison,

and the academic turning her attention and time to Taylor Swift. But also, the words to put to you this morning. Who would want to shag that? Or, I wouldn't sleep with her. Ever had that said about you or a friend before? I ask because of a row over so-called free speech at the TV news station GB News, where two men have been suspended

after one of them said that about a female political journalist, while the other one laughed. The station bosses have apologised, but we're going to unpack it and I'd like your help. You can text me here at Women's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media or at BBC Women's Hour. Or email me through the website or send a WhatsApp message or voice note with 03700 100 444 to hand, as that's the number you need. Data charges may apply, so do check the terms on our website.

But first, Marina Abramovich, the world-renowned performance artist, has been pushing just about every boundary you can think of over her 55-year career. Whether it's allowing the public to interact with her body in any way they choose, using objects ranging from a feather to a loaded gun, or walking half the length of the Great Wall of China with the sole purpose of breaking up

with her lover and artistic collaborator in the middle of it. Marina refers to herself as the godmother of performance art. Her pioneering work explores the relationship between the performer and the audience. And one of her most famous works, The Artist is Present, you may recall seeing videos of this, or maybe you even went, and if you did, I'd love to hear from you. But it saw her sit across from thousands of visitors

at New York's Museum of Modern Art staring into each one of those visitors' eyes. It was a one-to-one table that she sat across from those coming to the gallery. It was intense, it was emotional, even more so when her former lover and artistic partner, the one she met on the Great Wall of China, surprised her with a visit that she didn't know about.

It was a surprise but also they hadn't seen each other for some time. She has repeatedly subjected herself to physical and mental extremes, including exhaustion, pain, and even the possibility of death. Marina Abramovich's work at the Royal Academy of Arts in London, this major exhibition, opened its doors at the weekend. It presents key moments from her career, while others are re-performed by the next generation of artists, often trained by her institute. Performance art can be both shocking and intimate, and sometimes very intimate. You may have heard in this exhibition, I've already been able to see it myself, I've already done this, about those naked performers which have formed, who have formed I should say, a tight doorway that visitors can walk through during

the exhibition. We'll get to it. For Marina Abramovich it's life-changing finally seeing her work come to life through this major exhibition as she told me when we met and spoke at the Royal Academy. It's been seven years in making it and then came Covid and it was so complicated. My grandmother said everything starts really bad, always finish good and this could not be worse starting. Not just the perspective but you know the building everything then changing everything again then being very sick and then almost die. And then actually now is great. Now I am... Yeah, you've not been well.

I'm very well now. But you weren't. No, it was four months ago. I had this lung embolism, which normally people die, but look like I am kind of a medical miracle because I didn't. And I used all my energy and knowledge of performance art, how to survive and how to deal with pain. I know you don't want to talk about your health,

maybe in detail you want to talk about the work, but your approach to your body, your approach to strength and training is a big part of surviving and your work, isn't it? Because you also, as I understand, you're in your mid-70s and you had to come here by boat. You couldn't fly here because of your recent health issues. Yeah, mid-70s. I'm over mid-70s.

I'm 77 in November. That means three years I'm 80. That's kind of a serious age. If you look at Michael, the Mick Jagger who is 82, he's doing pretty well. So I hope that I will have enough energy till I am my grandmother age. When she died, I was 103. Because I think that especially female artists get more respect after 100.

I have to manage 100. You've had to wait till you're 100 to get the respect. But over 100, over 100. Because, you know, the Georgia Kiefer, I just saw the program yesterday on TV, she died in 98. She just needed at least two more years. She didn't manage 100. Louise Bourgeois didn't manage 100.

No. I'm really hoping I will manage. We're happy you're here, even on a boat. Your art and your work is about taking ideas maybe people have and testing them. Everyday things, whether it's brushing hair, breathing, walking through doors, you play with them and you do different things with them. And one of your moments, big moments for a lot of people might be, if they know nothing else, is the the artist is present where you took up residency in the New York Museum of Modern Art people queued to sit opposite you I'm just describing it in case

people don't know and they looked into your eyes and you looked into their eyes and they could stay with you for as long as they felt they needed you had to do some serious training for that, didn't you, I imagine? I did. I actually trained for this piece one entire year. It's same like, you know, astronauts in NASA go to the space program. It was the same approach for me. I had to train the entire year that in order to sit during the day without never standing up, we never go to the bathroom, never drinking water i have to train that i take the food in the night and i drink the water in the night and i make sure

that i sleep enough so they took me one year to train that and you have said you didn't think you could have done it when you were younger it was actually as an older woman you thought you were more prepared for that oh much more you know when you know, when you're young, you don't have wisdom, you don't have knowledge, you don't have stamina, you don't have dedication, and especially the purpose is not so clear. But I really knew that this performance, I want to lift human spirit, and I want also to show the transformative,

actually, power of long-duration work. And when I said to the curator about my piece that I would just sit in the front of the chair, and he was laughing. He said, but they're only going to sit on this chair. It's in New York. Nobody has this time. You know, people would just come and go

and probably would be empty. But it was an incredible, everybody's surprised. The chair not only was never empty, people lying, they sleep outside of the museum, and we reached 150,000 people, which any living artist didn't reach yet. So the need of people to not just look at something, but to be part of something is so important.

Because now, still the concept of museums is a medieval concept, that you go to the museum, you're not allowed to touch anything, and you look in the work. But if you're part of the experience, it's something that a young generation of viewers needed. This is one of the reasons why my public is extremely young. People wanted to connect with you, or with someone. Some people were crying when they were sitting opposite you.

There was a lot of emotion. What did you learn about humanity or about yourself from sitting across these people it's just one simple thing unconditional love that that actually by doing this that you can experience this incredible deep incredibly painful, unconditional love for any stranger standing in front of you. That kind of love for humanity, I think, for any human being is so important, because that's the only way how we can change ourselves and how we can change the situation we're living in, which is kind of a mess. One of the moments people may remember is when your former partner, romantically and creatively, Ulay came to sit across from you

and you reached across and you had tears coming down your face and he looked very moved as well. Did you know that was going to happen? No, this was a complete surprise. I invited him and his future wife, the guest for the show, the owner guest, and I have no idea that he will sit in front of me. And when that happened, you know, it was in front of me,

it was just him, it was my entire life flashing in a second. And I never break rules. seconds and i never break rules i whatever i never break rules but this was you know not the public this was a man i loved all these years and split in walking great wall of china so all the rules didn't matter anymore and it was very emotional very very emotional what did it feel like to reach across and hold hands? It's just love and understanding and being together in that moment. This moment reached, I don't know, 20 million viewers.

Because why it was so emotional and why the people reacted in that moment, because it's so real. People know when things are fake and people know they're real. You know it. You feel it. This is very real. And you mentioned the Great Wall of China. There's quite a

bit of your work together is in this exhibition. For people who don't know, again, you were going to get married meeting in the middle of the Great Wall of China. The visas took so long that by the time it came around... Yeah, it took eight years to get permission from China, who was not open at that time.

Yes, by the time it came around, you weren't together. Yeah, they came, you know, China said yes, finally. And then, you know, we was on the end of our relationship. We never gave up anything. We said, OK, now we're going to walk anyway, but instead of marrying, saying goodbye. Breaking up in the middle of the Great Wall of China is quite a thing. He showed us a walk to a half-thousand kilometre.

I remember a friend of mine said, it was American, of course, he said, oh, my God, why do you have to walk to a half-thousand kilometre? You're just going to make a phone call. But this was an all-different story with the phone call. It would have been. You also have in this exhibition, there's scenes of you two working together, but there are recreations of some of the things that you have done.

And one of the ones that has caught people's imagination, as your work will do with the headlines, has been two naked performers, artists, standing within a doorframe. Again, I need to describe it for radio, so that if people want to, they can walk through. It's quite a close space. What do you want to say about that?

That piece called Impoderabilia, we made in 1977, and we made it, rebuilt the door of the museum in Bologna smaller. And we stand there. There was no any other exit that you can go through or any other possibility to cross it. You have to go between us and that's it in a very narrow space. And the idea was really the museum would not exist if the artists don't make the work. And artist life is part of the museum would not exist if the artists don't make the work and artist life is

part of the museum so we wanted to really have something very poetical we want to be door of the museum this is the and you have to cross the door of the of the artist and after three hours the police you know he was naked and forbid the pieces on but we still have many hundreds of people crossing it and this became the piece the kind of piece that had been, you know, in every history of performance. And this was done in 1977. Now we are, and since then, in that period, there was so much bad criticism of art.

Everybody was against everything. Everybody was against nudity. Everybody was against that the performance of art doesn't exist as art. As a cast of art. Everybody was against everything. Everybody was against nudity. Everybody was against the performance art doesn't exist as art at all. And I spent all my life to put the performance art in mainstream. And the question, why is this art

for some time didn't been asked again. Somehow became mainstream. Somehow I think I succeeded. Till I come to Britain, and now we are having his anonymous letter, somehow I think I succeeded, till I come to Britain. And now we are having his anonymous letter, which I need to read to you because it's fantastic. So you've received an anonymous letter?

This has come to you? No, this anonymous letter is sent to Royal Academy, to everybody, and it's also sent to me. And the letter said this, Dear Sir, Madam, I felt that this new exhibition is reaching a new low.

And I could not understand why. Why the Academy considered this content as art? Oh, now 21st century, now it's my 55 years but we still don't know why it's art. Then comes the sentence, even Tracy Amin never got that low as this.

Then comes. We are being swamped by all forms of media, even terrestrial TV, which can only be called soft porn as the best. And now the best sentence of all. Are you happy to contribute to degradation of the nation? Wow. My new T-shirt is degradation of the nation immediately.

I can't wait. But this is, this is, we are, you see, there's no change. I mean, I can laugh, but it's. But there's no change. The perception of, you know, of some of the viewers is this. And I only can count a young generation to actually understand this show because do you think it's written by a man or a woman i think man i have feeling definitely man you know and and then you know why at least poor

tracy emin should be put into this and i think tracy emin's going to be fine with being in the same category honestly and honestly, and you know and then if you look at the criticism, you have great critics and they really love the show and the one who hate. The good thing is nobody's indifferent. There's not anybody different. Which way do you like to face when you go through?

Have you been through this door? I always go through the bodies, of course. But which way do you like to face? The man or woman? I face man. Why do you like to face? The man or woman? I face man. Why do you face the man? Because I really feel comfortable to face man. I'm a woman. I like to face man.

Do you stop to have, like to... No, I do. I'm very comfortable. Or do you keep walking? No, I'm very comfortable. I stopped. I mean, I really stopped. I take breaths and I really go through that knowledge that, you know, that something really happened

in this interaction. When you were performing some of these that we're now seeing, Rhythm Zero in 1974, you have recreated that with footage from it, a table laid with 72 objects that people were allowed to use in any way. Would that be made today? No.

Would it be allowed that people could just come in and do what they wanted to you with anything from a bottle of liquid through to a loaded gun i was 23 years old this was the time there was no any kind of restrictions like this today and i already proposed in 2008 to guggenheim museum to redo this piece called Seven Easy Pieces when I redid historical pieces of different people. And this was my own piece on the list. And I absolutely be refused by literally the battery of lawyers that would be absolutely not possible in America to be done. And I don't think they'll be done, they will be possible.

But I will never give permission to anybody else. If anybody will do this piece, it's me, because I can have, you know, my own, the own of my own body, and to see how far I can go. But I would never put anybody else in danger. But without any permission in Hong Kong, this piece was

reproduced anyway, and instead of pistol and bullet, the young artist had banana. Say that again, instead of what? Instead of bullet and bullet, the young artist had banana. Say that again. Instead of what? Instead of bullet and pistol on the table, he just had banana. So it was not as high stakes. No. And he sent me photographs. I didn't even know who he was, and he never asked for permission.

But banana, you know, who cares? Banana is, you know, banana is banana. You know, Hatalan made lots of stuff with banana can I also was there a difference between the way the women and the men who came to see you and use those objects treated you yes in in my case in Milan in Naples when I done the work women will not do anything to me they will tell men men what to do. And they will only, with handkerchief, take my tears off my eyes and kind of wash the blood. Because there was blood.

Yeah. I had been cut and drink the blood on my neck and still have scar. But it was an interesting situation in Naples because it was Italy. The entire projection on this piece, what the people do to me, is three stereotype projections. Madonna, mother, and the whore, prostitute. Three projections. It was incredible. Everything was done in that direction. Were you scared for your life? You know, when I do this kind of pieces, I go to another state of mind I was there six hours and I was there

absolutely like an object I only understood what I how crazy I done when I get to the hotel and see I have grey hair but it was you know being 23 you have the kind of courage that is pretty

insane you also said you'd like to do it again if you if it was ever anyone it would be you again you do it now yeah but in the same time i don't see necessary things to do that i've done already you know i really it's very important for an artist to understand the repetition is not really thing. You have to not repeat yourself and you have to be able to surprise yourself. You talk, right towards the end of the exhibition, you talk about death as the last experience of life and wanting to experience it. Three coffins.

Are you going to have three coffins? Is that right? Oh, yeah. Two fake and one real Marina. Nobody knows it's real. Let's have some fun. You know, you have to make big celebration. I had amazing life.

I have to have amazing death too. Well, no, you've got 30 more years or so. We're going to get past 100. No, there's still so much. Because this was, you know what I was thinking? It was so funny. Like, I done with Bob Wilson, life and death of Marina Bramwich, really my own funeral on the stage.

I now making now the sevens of Maria Callas. It's going to premiere in November. This is at the English National Opera. National Opera. I am carrying a skeleton. I'm washing a skeleton. I'm lying with a skeleton. I mean, so now I think the gods say,

OK, Marina, do you want to see how it's a real thing? And this was a real thing. It's not fun. Do you want this to happen when it is your time i will have people who not disclose the secret but i already organized this and this all come out of susan zontag funeral which i went to see because she was really one of the most incredible strong inspirational and large in their life, writer and woman and everything. And when she died, her son made a funeral in Père Lachaise in Paris

for 20 people. And I felt it was a rainy day and it was so sad and everything. And I think she didn't deserve this kind of funeral. I mean, she deserved a big funeral because there was something so sad, so incredibly inappropriate, because somehow he deprived all the really people who love her that actually could come and be there in that moment. And I remember taking a plane to New York

and writing my testament in the plane and said, Oh, mine are going to be like this. No black color, everybody in the plane and said oh my you're not going to be like this no black color everybody in the vibrant colors everybody telling you know jokes music as loud as possible lots of food lots of celebration can i buy a ticket free free free and then you know it's just the idea that you know that life is it's it's a dream and that is waking up. So let's see. Oh, gosh. Another T-shirt, as well as the one from the anonymous letter. Another T-shirt.

Degradation of the nation goes first. Okay. Fair enough. Is there anyone... I hope that the person who wrote this letter is listening to this program. Me too. It would be wonderful. Then I'm expecting another letter.

They've probably written... Women's are a few letters over the years and when you're feeling lazy and you're not hugging a tree or trying to get inspiration what do you do or look shitty movie see chocolate you know go to do to look the fashion always worry about my weight i was i was giving the friends the tip about the weight i said when you really have lots of weight the best thing to do is don't have a dinner, try the clothes that don't fit, and talk to your friends. So, you know...

You can't worry about such things. I can't believe it. You transform how we view things, don't you? No, no. Every woman is always worried about losing weight. That's really something typical for us. Yeah, but then you watch the movies and eat the chocolate. Yeah, and then eat chocolate. So that's the whole thing.

You know, the one thing that's so important in your life, I think in everybody's life, to accept their contradictions. We all have contradictions. And we all like to present our best, which is bullshit because it's not like this. I have three marinas that I've tried to bury them also. The one is spiritual, really spiritual. I really believe in energy, and I really believe in the good things. And then we have the warrior one, which is like no obstacles, just go for it.

And then the bullshit one. And they're all three living so nicely with me. And I'm not afraid to show to them, to friends and people, especially the people, you know, they have this kind of,

like, become, like, icon Marina Abramovich. I mean, the kids, the mother in Italy gave me baby to hold that I don't know what they think I will do with, you know, like a holy moment.

But I am just normal and always be normal. Well, I've enjoyed meeting. And down the earth, you know, like a holy moment. But I am just normal. I've always been normal. Well, I've enjoyed meeting. And down the earth, you know. And the humour is such important. Very. Especially, I work such a heavy work. If I don't have the humour, where I will be?

Marina Abramovich, if she doesn't have the humour, where will she be? The exhibition is on at the Royal Academy in London until the 1st of January next year. So plenty of time if any of that spoke to you. It's pretty hard to describe some of this work, but some of you will be familiar with it. If you're coming to it new, I can tell you,

you won't forget seeing some of these pieces. The spirit in any condition does not burn. Life is a dream. Death is waking up. I mean, some of these things are going to live long in my memory. Perhaps they will in yours too. And I'm sure some thoughts that are percolating right now. Do let me know if you want to share any of them in light of hearing that from Marina Abramovich and hearing some of her views. Well, to a completely different set of thoughts and perhaps to a very different

form of words. Who would want to shag that? That's one of the comments made by Lawrence Fox about a political reporter, Ava Evans, on GB News, the news channel on Tuesday, which led to his suspension. The actor, and now the man he was speaking to, Dan Wootten, has also been suspended as a presenter on the channel. Ava herself has called these comments really nasty and says she's since received threats online. She spoke to my colleagues at BBC's Newscast, the podcast, about the impact that this has had on her. It's just a very out-of-body experience because I'm never the story if that makes sense you're reporting on stories all the time um and I'm always talking to people always interviewing people and whenever you're like you know whenever I'm in a interview setting I'm

normally commenting on another person when it's about me it feels introspective and odd and it's also it's also a very bizarre thing to comment on because what am i supposed to say how am i supposed to say how it made me feel it made me feel disgusting and it's made me feel vile and like i just want to keep sort of showering because i just feel really gross about all of it that language i don't want to shag that i wouldn't sleep with that i wouldn't have sex with that some of you pointing out women say those sorts of things. And yes, of course, I'm sure women have and do. Some of you also then pointing out not on a news channel and not somebody in a discussion about what the person was saying,

who in this case actually was talking about whether there should be, this all stems back to the comments that the political journalist in question made, when on a BBC show talking about whether there should be a men's minister. And it was actually a discussion about mental health. None of that is on the table right now. What's on the table is what's been said, the action that has been taken by GB News and Ofcom receiving complaints, the media regulator looking into this.

There's a couple of messages I wanted to read out by some of our male listeners. One to the point I was sort of just saying, yes, I have said that about a woman, but then I was 17 and not a broadcaster. 40 year olds saying it are just immature and puerile. Talking there about Lawrence Fox, who by the way, GB News has apologised, but Lawrence Fox has

refused to do so, talking about free speech. Here we go again, though, reads this message. Women, have your moment of men bashing. I increasingly find myself the only male in training and work environments. The language from women Here we go again, though, reads this message. Please stop putting all men in one box. Women are just as bad, worse even. Aren't you just putting women in a box there and actually saying women are worse? The comments are the comments. The reporting is the reporting.

Let's talk to Rebecca Whittington, who's the committee lead on this issue for the organisation Women in Journalism. Rebecca is also online safety editor at Reach PLC, which owns the Mirror newspaper and others. Good morning, Rebecca. Good morning. Some comments from our listeners there.

There's some others actually from from others along different lines and some women who've been in touch to say this has been said about them. Taking all of that in, what was your response to what Lawrence Fox had to say on GB News? Well, I think it's, I mean, I think the point that I would really like to make is that people might have these conversations when they're 17, they might have these conversations and regret it afterwards, but most people don't get the opportunity to have those kinds of conversations in a broadcast sphere or in a sphere where they are in a position of power and essentially having that conversation with thousands of people watching them at that point in time or watching them afterwards on catch-up and I think that that is um on a on a news channel you know channel that's about news

exactly they're in a position of authority people look up to them people want to watch and hear what they have to say uh when we hear that kind of conversation taking place without being challenged at the time. And I understand since then there's been suspensions. Wotton has criticised the remarks. There's obviously been actions that have taken place afterwards in a high pressurised situation as well. We can think about live TV being high pressurized but actually ultimately it wasn't challenged at the time there was laughter there was sniggering it was like watching two 17 year olds and it was also a little bit like stepping back in time quite

honestly as a live broadcaster i can tell you things do happen and you don't always see it in the round and and all of that and and there but for the grace of god go i i will say that but what is interesting about live broadcasting is what comes out in big moments is who is is sort of what's going on with you and some of your judgment and i think it's a very revealing space i can say that as someone who's done it every day for 15 years nearly um and i think what was interesting dan wilton the host has apologized but what he said on air, because you can miss things, there's a difference between an omission and a commission if you like, but what he said on air was he tried to give some balance

by saying the woman we're talking about here, Ava, was a very beautiful woman and I'm quite struck, we've had a text message as well from one of our listeners saying how misogynist this is and how awful this is. One of our listeners called John and he ends the text by saying, it reminds me of Serana de Bergerac

being attacked due to his nose. However, and this is the however, the rejoinder on John's message, Ms Evans is a very attractive woman. More than this, she's a professional doing a good job. Even someone in support of this journalist, and actually what Dan Worsham was seemingly trying to do during the live conversation,

makes comment on how the journalist looks. And if the tables were turned, I think it's highly unlikely that if Ava was a man, I can't imagine for one second that the conversation would have turned to how that male journalist looked. They would have talked about the journalist's professional standing. They would have talked about the journalist's professional abilities. I don't think that they would have talked about how that journalist looked. It is degradation and it reduces her position, you know, as a professional woman. It is misogynistic. You've made a complaint to Ofcom, is that right? Personally, I did. Yes. But that was on a personal basis.

I wasn't talking to you as Reach PLC where you were. I just I know a lot of people were talking on social media about whether that was a thing they were going to do. Why did you personally feel you wanted to do that? I work in a role where i work with women journalists journalists actually who are male female and other um who see abuse of all kinds and the role that i do very often works with women journalists who face sexual harassment sexual abuse often coming from the general public and in a multitude of different forms. It is a real issue that we have within our society.

And I just felt absolutely compelled to really talk, to really raise the issue and say, we can't be having this kind of narrative and legitimising this kind of narrative on broadcasting. We can't we can't be seen to be having this kind of narrative without it being challenged. So that's why. There's a statement here, GB News has called Lawrence Fox's words totally unacceptable. A big part of GB News's mantra is free speech, but there's a response on this. It said it was conducting a full investigation and a spokesman said, we won't be commenting further while we continue our investigation.

Our chief executive wrote to Ava Evans yesterday and as he said he would in our earlier statement. What do you want to happen as someone who has taken the time to personally write and complain to the media regulator Ofcom? I'd like to see the narrative changing. I think that we really what we saw on Tuesday was essentially it was so disappointing because it suggested that we still have such a long way to go in terms of not only broadcast potentially, but also our society and the way that women are talked about in their professional spaces. And I would like to see that changing. I think that we need to allow wide, diverse conversations to take place. I don't want to see cancellation because I think that plays into the hands of people who essentially critique cancel culture. But I do think that we need to see change a broadcast we need to actually see actions taking place immediately in that setting really rather than seeing do you think the two uh people especially Dan Woodhouse because he's the

actual employee as I understand do you think he should lose his job would you lose your job where you work if you did that um I don't know I don't know is the answer i'm afraid um i would like to see learnings from this that actually are meaningful um and i i don't know what that looks like exactly but i want uh i know that you know gb news has got learnings to take from this it's obviously taken learnings already um but i do think as a wider society we need to be thinking about okay so how do we how do we talk about women in the workplace how do we talk about women who are professionals why is it okay to talk about the way that women look uh and sexualize women essentially when we're not seeing that happening so some some fascinating comments from you rebecca some fascinating coming comments coming in from our listeners rebecca rebecca

whittington thank you for your time this morning. Michelle in Nottingham, good morning. You say, it's quite revealing that these kind of men think that it is our primary drive to get shagged. And if we are seen as being a bit out of line, then our privileges in that department, which is starred out, get revoked. And yet Sue has said, free speech is free speech. Cancel culture wants to destroy it. Women make similar comments about men. So what? When you're a political journalist, you should be able to challenge views and opinions rationally rather than playing the emotional card. Otherwise, find a more suitable career to your talent. Sue, yes. What is it? Views and opinions. You should be able to challenge views and opinions. So should Ava challenge the view and opinion that she's not shaggable? How should she challenge that? Go on Sue, give me a call. I'd love to hear from you. A message here on the subject of misogynistic talk. My name is Charlotte. I've had this all my life. When I was young and slim and rejected the advances of some men,

they would loudly declare nobody would want to shag me anyway. Now I'm a plus size woman, age 49, and my husband is slim and handsome, 15 years younger than me, and more than once when we're out on a date, men come up to him and say, do you shag that? Tragic. I know. It shouldn't hurt.

But it does. That's a very important thing to pause on for a moment. It shouldn't hurt, but it does. There is a woman at the centre of this who has said she feels like she has to keep taking a shower because of how horrible and dirty this has made her feel. Well, my next guest is no stranger to the public eye and to attention. She's achieved a number of firsts and she's been listening to our conversation. She was part of the group of Conservative MPs who took dozens of seats in former Labour areas known as the Red Wall at the last election.

Deanna Davison was elected by voters in Bishop Auckland as their first Conservative MP. It had been solidly Labour. She's also one of the party's youngest MPs, aged 26 when she was elected, and last year made it into the government as junior minister in Michael Gove's levelling up department. But despite being described as one of the most energetic and active members of that 2019 intake, she did announce last year she wouldn't be standing for election again and very recently in the last few days has actually also resigned as a minister citing chronic migraines as the cause. Deanna, good morning.

Morning. Welcome back to Women's Hour. Can we come to your migraines in just a moment because I'm very aware we've got a lot of messages coming in about this space, this public space and being a woman in it. And it seems slightly the wrong way around if I don't at least get your view on what's happened at the Rower GB News. What is your take on what Lawrence Fox had to say? It was disgusting. I don't think there's kind of any other way to put it. I think to make those comments anyway, but to single out an individual live on air in such a disgusting, derogatory, misogynistic way, completely unacceptable. It's absolutely right that it's being investigated. But I think it's been staggering, actually, seeing the number of so-called kind of free speech crusaders online who have come to his defence.

How would they feel if this was being said about their daughter or their wife or their sister? That's what I've been wondering. Do you think a woman would ever say, I wouldn't shag that, about a man? Probably, but I wouldn't say in anywhere near the level of numbers I mean girls have those sort of girly conversations. Do you think they say it on air? Depends on the woman but probably not I don't think it's an instinctive thing that we would say. What do you make of the fact that Dan Woodson said as part of her defense she's beautiful she's good looking. She's bizarre, isn't it? I mean, this is a professional young journalist that we're talking about here who is doing a job.

Why does her appearance come into this at all? Bizarre, but I mean, you shared a platform with him. You were a presenter at GB News, weren't you? I was, yeah. I presented my own show. I think it's important to have different voices on air. But I do think the direction the channel's taking has surprised me quite a lot over the past year, actually.

Why did you leave GB News? Because I became a minister, quite frankly. So you didn't leave because of the direction it was taking? No, I left because obviously as a minister, it wouldn't be appropriate for me to be doing that and sort of having my own show. And quite frankly, having the time to do that would have been impossible with the demand ministerial job should ministers conservative ministers be appearing on gb news today or in

the few next few days i think that's for everyone to wake up and kind of examine their own conscience about whether that's something they want to do to be honest i mean would you um i mean i'm not a minister right now i would conservative mp i I would, after this week, I would probably find it difficult to, and I say that as someone who used to work at the Channel. Difficult because? Just because of the fact that those sort of views were allowed on air, knowing that they'd get outrageous.

And then it took quite a while, in my view, for that investigation to come forth. I'll be very interested to kind of see how it goes, to see the outcome of the investigation, what happens next. What could be the outcome of the investigation, what happens next. What could be the outcome of the investigation? I don't know, Emma, I don't know. Didn't we see it all? I think we did, realistically.

I guess the question is, well, who was in their ear? Was anyone egging it on? Were they saying stop? Were they saying just down? So there might be another person, but do you think Dan Wotton should be fired? I don't know. It's not my call to make, Emma. But from what you've seen as a former employee or a contractor of GB News, it's so interesting to get your take. Reprimanded,

absolutely. Firing is a big thing. But I mean, he allowed those views to kind of continue and manifest and then seemingly giggled about it afterwards. On a news channel? Yeah. You care about the public square, you care about truth, you care about democracy, I presume, because as an MP and formerly a minister. So you don't think he should be fired or you don't know? I don't know is the honest answer. I don't want to kind of come to a snap judgment right now. But it made me really blooming uncomfortable, really blooming uncomfortable to the fact where I think I tweeted something saying it's vile and disgusting. What was said is vile and disgusting. It's just there's a difference. The handling of it too. Yeah. You know if if i'd been on air and someone

had been making those comments and you will know you have to shut that down it's absolutely the right thing to do you provide a counterpoint you shut that down or you take the person off you cancel the interview you failed in in your job and your role at that time it feels like it yeah are you going to boycott gb news therefore it's It's not it's not a plan I've really thought about in a great level of detail. But you are still at the moment in the public eye and talking is on your media round, as we call it in the business. Are they off your media round? Certainly on my naughty list at the moment. And certainly as it stands right now, if I was asked for an interview today, I wouldn't be saying yes. It's an important part of the way that we are perhaps processing information, the way that people are perceived and the reaction is very, very strong.

Do you like being a woman in the public eye? It depends on the day. It depends on the moment sometimes. Broadly, no, which is strange given that I've kind of chosen this career, chosen this path, chosen to put myself in the public eye, as it were. But the amount of scrutiny you get being in the public eye anyway can be really hard. And I think as a woman, there's a sort of sinister element to that. I mean, you don't see men getting rape threats. You don't see men's appearance dragged continually every day. You don't see

men being told to get back to the kitchen and go where they belong. As a woman, that's every day. That's every day in the job. You will see comments and tweets and emails, whatever it might be. Did you used to have chronic migraines or do you think this has come with the job? How has your health been impacted by this role? The migraine, I mean, I've suffered for seven or eight years now, so far before I was even elected as an MP or as a minister or whatever. But they do say that stress and sort of high intensity stress can exacerbate migraine. And I've definitely noticed more over the past few years. Now, it's hard to say whether there's a direct correlation between sort of the

job and the migraine itself. But if I was a betting woman, I probably would put money on the fact that it's not helped. What does it feel like on a bad day? We will have some of our listeners, sadly, who can relate. Well, right now I have pain of about six out of ten and I'm looking at you and you're really blurry. And this is a pretty standard day for me, which is kind of scary. On a bad day, getting out of bed and going to the kitchen

to get a glass of water is really difficult um the light coming through the curtains is horrendous I'm squinting I'm wearing sunglasses indoors I'm trying to hide any chink of light scream whatever it might be which at home is manageable when you're at work and obviously as an MP I need to be there I need to be there to to vote to to debate and you know, do my vital constituency work too. And as a minister, you had extra on top. As a minister, even more so, because, you know, if I was there in the chamber that day taking through legislation, I had to be there in the chamber that day taking through legislation. How did you do that? With great difficulty, with the support of a brilliant team, with painkillers.

Who knew? Yeah, my parliamentary team and my private office team knew, was quite open with them very early on just to say, if we do have to move things around, here's why. And everyone was really, really quite understanding. But it was just coping. And I think anyone living with a chronic illness will recognise that you live with this every day. And if you did the instinctive thing and stayed in bed, you probably wouldn't leave your bed for months, years. You have to find a way to cope and carry on and push through, much as that's really hard. And some days it is really, really blooming hard.

Statistics show women are three times as likely as men to suffer from migraines. I'm sure many people generally, but women in particular, may have been in touch with you since you spoke about this. Because giving up, I know you're leaving as an MP when the next election happens but giving up your job as a minister because of this is a big move. It was a really big really difficult decision but for me I sort of handled it really practically. I mean it was less on the my health and how I was feeling more on the sense that that is such an important job. The levelling up side of things is so important. And in order to do it properly, do it effectively, it needs someone who can be firing on all cylinders 100% of the time every single day. And I did my best and I pushed through and I pushed through and I pushed through. But for me, it just reached a point where I realised I am not giving this job what it needs to do it to the back regardless of what that means for me and actually I'm hoping that a sort of side effect for me is that the sort of reduced workload and the reduced intensity might actually help my my head to heal a little bit in the meantime too. Are you looking forward to not being an MP? Yes and it always sounds really ungrateful when you say it in such

terms because you work really hard to get here you have a huge team of people who will campaign for you work hard for you and obviously your constituents have put their faith in you. But I am looking forward to some time away from it. More time with my family, more time to sit back away from the public eye, kind of reflect on what I want out of life, you know? Yeah. I mean, how old will you be when you stop being an MP? 30, 31?

Depends when the election falls, but yeah, 30 or 31. Done. Done that. I don't know. By that age. What next, I suppose? It must be on your mind. Oh, I don't know yet. Not GB News again, it doesn't sound. No, no, no. I don't know what's next, if I'm completely honest. Figuring that out at the moment, I think a lot of people try and sort of reinvent themselves at 30. I'm just doing it in a slightly different way. You're very straight talking. I've always noticed that about you. We've spoken before. I know you appreciate that. Why can't Rishi Sunak give a straight answer? I think there's a real difficulty in politics where if you give yes or no answers, you are boxing yourself into a corner. Do you not think when you do a round with BBC local radio hosts, as the Prime Minister did

this morning with all of our colleagues, and you are asked repeatedly about a high-cost infrastructure project such as HS2 and you are talking to people who will be directly affected by it, you can say, I know what you're saying about being boxed in on certain issues that may be a perennial, but don't you think you should really now say if it's happening or not, that part of HS2? Well, I haven't listened to the interviews. I will be doing later. I'll just tell you what he should really now say if it's happening or not that part of hs2 well i haven't listened to the interviews i will i will be doing later i'll just tell you what he said please i

can't comment on future plans right um i think i think we need to know what's going on with hs2 and we've needed to know for a while no if i did i know you were part of the leveling up team but no one's told you in a tea room no no not at all not at all. I mean, HSU is something that when the decision was first being made on it years ago, I was quite against, mainly because I thought for such a vast cost, that money could be put to better use in smaller communities,

in places where you can't get a bus from village to village or town to town could benefit so much more in their day-to-day lives and building a new high-speed rail line. Once the decision was taken, you get behind it because there's no point not doing so. But now, I mean, we either do it or we don't, right? We need a yes or no answer.

We need people to know. We're sort of doing it in current sort of circumstances. Well, that's a bit like this government for some people, isn't it? Ish. I don't know. I mean, you know, I've spent some time. We have a prime minister we didn't elect. We have a party we elected.

I say we as the electorate in that royal we sense. But we now have someone who's deviating from what was campaigned on. I mean, constitutionally, of course, we never elect a prime minister per se. Okay. But I'm speaking for those who feel, even those who voted for him and those who voted for the party, let's say, and they voted for what you stood for as a party. And you know those people voted for you as a Conservative for the very first time in those numbers in your constituency. Ish. I mean, you've just said it. That's it, isn't it? I don't know what we've got here. I don't think so. I mean, you look at some of the brilliant things that we've done over the years whilst Rishi was Chancellor.

And I think some of that's continued on the levelling up agenda. Some of the brilliant projects that I've been sort of helping to deliver in my time as levelling up minister and the impact they're having on the ground with individual communities that stuff matters that stuff really matters to people in their day-to-day lives and some of those projects are now completed coming into fruition the levelling up fund was something that was created under Rishi Sunak as Chancellor and is now being continued with him as Prime Minister I think he really believes in that agenda in that sort of, you know, aspiration spreading opportunity agenda. Well, he'll get the chance, I suppose, in his Conservative Party speech. You were supportive of Liz Truss, is that right? Yes.

I suppose it's about what you say and doing what you say and knowing where you stand. That's what I was interested in. Yeah. And I wonder, do you feel that's being reflected right now? I think politics is so hard, isn't it? Because you make your manifesto pledges on a five-year cycle, knowing that the situation in three, four years could be so different. I mean, none of us could have expected the COVID pandemic to hit and completely turn all of our lives upside down. So I think it is really hard sometimes to tie in a party to those manifesto pledges when so much can change.

And I say that whether it was Labour, Empowerers, Empower or whatever. It's difficult. Politics is such a cyclical thing. But similarly, it is right that people can expect when we make pledges, when we make promises that we deliver on them. I think that's important. You will be watching it from the next election. And Deanna Davidson, thank you for your time this morning. And I know you're not feeling great, but you've managed to come and talk to us.

So I do appreciate that. That's all. Thanks. Thank you. I also know that you're a bit of a fan of Taylor Swift. So I think you'll like the next conversation. It is the start of a new academic year. And with that comes with a wave of research opportunities, papers to publish and conferences galore.

But for one university in Melbourne, its latest venture has made global headlines and attracted interest from scholars around the world. The university is hosting the first ever Taylor Swift Symposium or Swiftposium as it's been called with researchers gathering to discuss the singer through a variety of subjects. Dr Jennifer Beckett is one of the organisers behind the event and joins me now. Welcome to the programme. How did this come about? This conference actually came about because two of our conference organizers, Hannah McCann and Rebecca Trelease, who's at the Auckland

University of Technology, are Swifties and we're having an email conversation between them about Taylor Swift and her impact and thought it would be a good idea to have a conference. Neither of them have had time, so we're organizing it with them now. Right. And this seems to have got a lot of attention. It has. It's got an odd. Sorry, I'm very tired at the moment. It's got a lot of attention, much more than we expected. Usually university academics, we put out a call for papers and then we wait about three weeks before anything happens. It doesn't normally go global overnight. OK. And I mean, I suppose if you if you hitch a wagon to Taylor Swift, perhaps something like that does happen.

But what what will go on at the conference for those who are Swifties, the big fans? So it's actually a conference for academics from a range of different disciplines. So we've opened it up because she does have such a big impact on so many different areas. And so largely, it's, you know, it's a standard academic conference, people will come and deliver papers. But we are planning a public event as part of it. So people are able to engage in the conference that way as well. We don't know, we're still in the planning phases of this this is all still very very early day early days and and yet at the same time like you say so many people are interested what's been the reaction amongst your student community well um we're actually on break this week so we don't have a

lot of students around on campus. But I have had a couple of emails from some of our students saying, I heard you on the radio. This is amazing. This is fantastic. One of them said, I almost crashed my car when I heard you talking about it. Please don't do that. We're always a bit worried about those interviews on the radio

that may prompt swift responses. And sorry, no pun intended. But I suppose for those listening who yes okay you maybe haven't planned the agenda yet they may be thinking taylor swift academic study how does that actually go together can you just give a bit of detail on that yeah sure i think as academics one of our jobs is to really sort of critically engage with how the world works and all of the things that impact on a lot of those. And when a particular person like Taylor Swift has a sort of out,

you know, outsized impact on things like the economy, you know, there's the term Swiftonomics has been coined around that because she just is, you know, adding potentially up to $6 billion to the US's GDP with the ERA's tour alone. She's also had the largest impact in young voter registrations in the US that has ever been seen. So she's having an impact on also the sort of democratic process, you could say. So all of those things are very worthwhile to have a look at and

to critically engage with and wonder, how has this happened? And what does this mean? Taylor Swift's impact on the democratic process, that could be a title, I suppose, for one of the sessions. What is that impact? I know you might not know the numbers or the, but a flavour of that, what would you say to that? So it's actually known as the swift bump. And we've had the second one recently. They saw something like a 215% increase in voters at the age of around 18 to 20 signing up to vote in the US since 2020. So it's a huge bump.

And again, it's happened other times. And all she did was do an Instagram post that was urging her fans to sign up to vote. So that's the bump that you talk about. Has Taylor Swift been invited to this conference? We have invited Taylor Swift to the conference. We sent that invitation earlier on in the week. She will actually be in New Zealand, but it is a hybrid conference. So we're happy for a video high or Taylor just holding up a sign because she famously doesn't do any press around her conferences because she's saving her voice. So if Taylor Swift would like to grace us with her presence, we would be ecstatic, I think.

I think if she's listening to Woman's Hour and we somehow found that out, I think a lot of people would be very ecstatic as well. So good luck with it. I hope that it comes together beautifully. I'm sure there'll be a good soundtrack. Oh, absolutely. There'll be a phenomenal soundtrack. We're already planning the Spotify playlists for the conference.

I bet you are. That will be the thing, I suppose, to be able to focus on and get the crowd going. It might have a bit more. I mean, I've not been to a lot of academic conferences or symposiums, but I imagine there could be quite an upbeat beat to it. Well, we are taking things for performance and creative works as well. So we're excited to see what happens.

What emerges. Dr. Jennifer Beckett, thank you. Good luck with it. One of the organisers behind the Melbourne University's first and what we believe to be the first ever Taylor Swift Symposium or Swiftposium, as it's being called. What would you have on the agenda um messages many messages coming in about these comments on gb news but but more broadly around the idea of women having said to them and you're getting in touch when women have also said something similar as well but women having said to them i wouldn't sleep with you i wouldn't sleep with that actually that's an interesting use of that word quite regularly. There's a message here that says,

as an Australian male who swears and is very opinionated, I find what English men say to women here pathetic. I'm thinking that they don't love or respect their own mothers because would their mothers be okay with this? It's embarrassing being a man sometimes. Another one says, Ava has fallen victim to fragile male egos. Her only crime is being beautiful and successful. These men are self-aggrandizing. They're seeking to place themselves above her. Hence the comment, qualifying Ava is beautiful, is basically rubbish. I think that

message ends with a few stars on. I actually do think some speech and some people should be cancelled. A 15-year-old girl was killed yesterday, was murdered yesterday. This is talking about what happened in Croydon. There's a particular knife attack you will have seen and heard about in the news headlines. This hasn't happened in a vacuum, but in a culture of misogyny. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom of consequence. The toxic misogyny gets women killed, says Gemma, who's listening in Paisley. I'm pulling a few threads together there. Thank you very much for your thoughts this morning

and for your different experiences I should say. There's another one here talking about a hen do that you were on a train with and you heard women saying awful things having drunk copious quantities of Prosecco. The language and behaviour was shocking, calling out men walking past their area. They were running the gauntlet, these men,

such as get your tackle out and show us your chopper. I bet you're a big lad, aren't you? Come on, ladies, says this. Please stop playing the victim. I've seen ladies expose their breasts, their knickers and do questionable things. From someone who describes himself as the thinking soldier in Lincolnshire.

Again, I think context is all, as Margaret Atwood says. I think we're talking specifically about on a news channel, but it doesn't exist in a vacuum. And we are talking about language. Your messages have been brilliant and very interesting. We'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Nick Robinson. I want to tell you about my Radio 4 podcast, Political Thinking. It is about why people think the things they think. What is it in their lives, their backgrounds, that explains who they are and what they believe?

My mum was a very community-minded person. That's what brought politics to life for me, actually. These are conversations, not newsy interrogations. Lucky, ruthless, probably a bit of both. And they're not just about rows or problems. They're quite often about the good politics can do. There is nothing like government. Good government gets things done.

That is what democracy is all about. That's Political Thinking with me, Nick Robinson. Listen now on BBC Sounds. doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

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