Woman's Hour - Marina Litvinenko, Sexual Harassment, Medieval Woman

Episode Date: December 12, 2022

It’s been 16 years since the fatal poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko, who had exposed corruption in Russia and died in a hospital in London after ingesting tea which contained a radioactive substance. His wife, Marina Litvinenko, brought the case to the European Court of Human Rights in 2021 which upheld that Mr Litvinenko had been the victim of a FSB assassination “probably” approved by Putin. Russia denies any involvement. Marina joins Emma to discuss the upcoming ITVX drama Litvinenko.The government has announced that street harassment will be made a crime in England with jail sentences of up to two years. The Home Secretary Suella Braverman who has backed the move says ‘every woman should feel safe to walk our streets’. But what’s the reality? Reporter Ellie Flynn recently went undercover to highlight the experience of sexual harassment experienced by girls and women in the UK today. She joins Emma to talk about her new documentary.The discovery of an ancient female burial site in Northamptonshire has been described as one of the most important finds ever discovered in Britain. This woman is thought to be a Christian leader of significant wealth and her jewellery is considered an outstanding example of craftsmanship for this early medieval period. Emma is joined by Lyn Blackmore, from the Museum of London and Irina Dumitrescu, Professor for Medieval English Literature at the University of Bonn. It's been revealed that the author JK Rowling is founding and personally funding a new female only service for survivors of sexual violence in Edinburgh. We are joined by the BBC's David Wallace Lockhart and The Daily Telegraph's Suzanne Moore who broke the story. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. Yes, it is rather cold and I'm sure you're experiencing that wherever you are today. I hope you're not sliding all over the place. If the snow has stuck where you are, we will do our best to warm you up today, well at least with some conversation. You will hear on today's programme from the campaigning widow

who won't be silenced despite Putin and the Russian state's best efforts, from those in the know with more detail about what's being called the most important female burial site ever discovered in Britain. JK Rowling, in the last few minutes, has made an announcement, just as we were coming on air. She's personally funded a new service and building in Scotland for female survivors of sexual violence. We'll bring you the latest on that and the political story that surrounds it.

But also, as the government announces that street harassment, from catcalling to following someone, will be made a crime in England with jail sentences of up to two years. That's something that the Home Secretary, I should say, Suella Braverman, has backed, saying every woman should feel safe to walk our streets. What is the reality? I'll be talking to an undercover TV reporter who had cameras follow her without people, mainly men, realising that they were. She pretended to be drunk and the footage is quite something. What I wanted to ask you today,

of course you can reply to the question about do you feel safe when walking the streets at night, was what you do when you are either followed or catcalled or approached in any way. What your strategies are. I remember having self-esteem, the singer on a few weeks ago who has spoken about barking like a dog to put what's usually men off in that situation. There's all sorts of people do all sorts of things. Some strategies women have come up with over the years,

maybe it's not something you deploy now, but it's something you used to do. You of course shouldn't be in that situation. No one's condoning that, but the reality is the reality, as we'll be discussing with this particular journalist with Ellie Flynn. What is yours? How have you handled it? What have you done? Perhaps you've also done some confronting. How did that go down? What was said? What wasn't said? A lot of the time it's too frightening. It's not something you want to be able to have to handle or want to have to deal with, but there you are. What are your strategies? What have you done? The number to get in touch with me, 84844.

Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Social media app, BBC Woman's Hour. You can email me through the Woman's Hour website or a voice note or a WhatsApp message. Different number, 03700 100 444. And just watch those data charges. It might be better to get on the Wi-Fi if you can. Now, in 2006, a former Russian spy, just days before he was fatally poisoned,

wrote of President Vladimir Putin, if you don't stop this monster, he will start a war and millions of people will die. He wrote that in 2006. Many now say his words have come true as we head towards the 10th month of the war in Ukraine. The man who penned those words was Alexander Litvinenko. Many of you will remember him. He had exposed corruption in Russia and died in a hospital in London

after ingesting tea which contained a radioactive substance. A public inquiry, which was campaigned for, concluded in 2016 that Mr Litvinenko had been the victim of an FSB, the successor of the KGB, assassination and it was probably approved by Putin. His wife Marina sees it as her mission to keep her husband's voice alive and brought the case to the European Court of Human Rights in 2021, which upheld the UK's inquiry findings. Russia to this day denies any involvement. Earlier this year Marina happened to be visiting Ukraine on holiday when the war broke out and while she there, she queued to donate blood for injured soldiers. She's now portrayed in the upcoming ITV drama Litvinenko,

starring David Tennant as Alexander and Margarita Leviva as Marina. The drama focuses on the police investigation into finding Mr Litvinenko's killers, but also on Marina, who has fought tirelessly to persuade the British government to publicly name herenko's killers, but also on Marina, who has fought tirelessly to persuade the British government to publicly name her husband's killers and acknowledge the role of the Russian state in his murder. When I spoke to Marina Litvinenko earlier this morning, I had in mind that well-known photo of him in a hospital bed, ravaged by polonium. I'm sure you can pull it to mind now if you try and if you remember it.

But of course, this new documentary will bring Litvinenko's story to a whole new generation too. I started by asking Marina what her husband, who she refers to as Sasha, was like as a person. Everybody remembers Sasha lying down on this bed in hospital and it's absolutely horrifying. I wasn't happy to take this picture because for me, Sasha was every time very handsome,

very cheerful, very young looking man. And he actually was like that. And he was very strong, spiritual, what helped him to survive for this long battle, 23 days, the moment he was poisoned. And he was extremely reliable, very professional. And if you want to have a good friend,

I would say Sasha was the best one to have a friend. I should say, you refer to him as Sasha. That's how you talk about him, in terms of the name difference. And that should say you refer to him as Sasha that's that's how you talk about him uh in terms of the name difference and that photo that you refer to many people will remember as the kind of lasting image of him but as you say it took it took a long time between the poisoning and for him to die and and that process in itself must have been so hard for you and for your son. Absolutely. For us, for our friends. These old days, we couldn't believe Sasha would die.

We didn't know, is it radioactive polonium? Nobody knew how does it work, how it might be deadly and affected. And only things helped Sasha still be strong. And when investigation at the end started, I believe now we are in a safe hands and knowledge finally he is poisoned and he might be treated against this poison. But, of course, we didn't know it was polonium. And for what happened to Sasha since 1st of November till 23rd of November, it was a torture. There's a very powerful part of this story re-enacted in the drama

where he says, the character depiction says, I'd like to report a murder, mine. Those words, you know, are not easy things to hear. They wouldn't have been easy things for him to say. And yet it wasn't straightforward what then happened in terms of how this case was viewed and how it was treated by the authorities. Absolutely.

And we remember it started only in the last days of his life. But from the very beginning, almost on the fifth day, he tried to pay attention, ask doctors. I don't blame anybody in this situation because it's so unique and unusual. When you say I'm a former officer and I'm enemy of Vladimir Putin. It would be the same how to say I'm a King George V. But he tried to say this. He never told me, Marina, I'm going to die. He didn't tell it to me, but he understood. You have had to fight for every part of this to come to light, for the public inquiry, for each stage of this. And yet he published an article, Alexander, Sasha, as you call him,

weeks before he died, as the world was searching to cast our minds back for bin Laden. He said at the same time there was a much worse terrorist behind the Kremlin wall. He also said, if you don't stop this monster, he will start a war, speaking of Putin, and millions of people will die. Those are very haunting words to think of now with what's going on and has been going on nearly the whole year in Ukraine. It happened not only then in 2006, it happened back to 90s when Sasha first became publicly spoken

in press conference in Moscow, blaming FSB, the security service, as a criminal organization. And nobody pay attention except some, maybe few people. But end of 90s, people in Russia couldn't believe it might take any turn back. When he was in London, he blamed FSB in a terrorist attack in Russian cities, as Moscow, and 100 people did die, but again, nobody paid attention so much, and everybody tried to relax or make business as usual. And this was always as a count for what Russia as a state is capable. And at the end, when Sasha died, I thought what he tried to say when he was alive now would be accepted. But it was not enough.

And it takes another time, another 10 years, 2016, a public inquiry report blamed Russia's state behind all this crime. And Putin, as a president, it happened with his knowledge and former director of FSB, Nikolai Patrushev. But it didn't stop. It happened with his knowledge and former director of FSB, Nikolai Patrushev. But it didn't stop. And we had another event in 2018 in Salisbury. And not only two people were poisoned,

but a British citizen woman died after poisoning by Novichok. And unfortunately, this was a very long time to understand what you have to do. Do you think if the world had listened, world leaders, including the leaders of this country, to what Sasha had to say, that the war in Ukraine would have happened? Every politician believes they might make a better way to approach Russia. And it's every time when you have a new prime minister or new leader in another country, but you still have the same Vladimir Putin in front of you and how you can believe he might change.

And this was every time a big mistake. And you can't say they did not try, but I think they just decided to go a different direction. They thought business, communication, making friends around Putin might help. But this was a mistake. Unfortunately, only a power, an economical power, military power, might make Russia to follow world rules, democratic rules. What do you think drives Putin? Since the 90s, after long-term being a communist country,

nothing changed, or did change, but a little bit. People who did feel their freedom and independence will still be freedom and independent. They've been before the Communist Party collapsed and the Soviet Union no longer exists anymore. But the majority of people still have less understanding of what democracy means. And they'll still be very easy to manipulate.

And after controlling state media, making this all ideology as a patriot, you have to be a patriot of your country. It became very difficult to change anything in Russia.

His motivation, it's just to control people, how it was in Soviet Union, but in a different way, to show them he might bring them all what other country in the West might use, good cars, you can travel abroad, you can send your children to study, for studying in other countries.

But measure of controlling became even worse than it was in Soviet Union. What do you think should happen to Putin? This is something that is being discussed actively. And my colleague here at the BBC, Laura Koonsberg, asked the Foreign Secretary of the UK, James Cleverley, yesterday, if Putin, for instance, should face trial at The Hague over war crimes. He said that there must be accountability, but the International Criminal Court might not be the appropriate mechanism for this. What do you think should happen to Putin?

We don't know what might happen. Back to 1991, everybody saw the Soviet Union as the strongest state. And just before that, it was a referendum when people then asked, would you like to save Soviet Union? And everybody said yes. But in a few months, it was collapsed. And after that, had a few different countries. And the same, we don't know what might happen to Russia very soon. But of course, it's very important international judgment. But I think Putin would be judged by his own people. And we don't know what would be like this. If you remember what happened to Gaddafi, who was a very strong leader of his country, but he was just simply killed.

And if you go a little bit more back, it was Ceausescu who a few months ago, before he was killed, and his wife as well. It was a long-standing ovation. And again, we don't know what might happen to Putin, because with all this shown love to Putin, it might change to hate very quickly. I don't know it might be a better way to Russia change because people who might kill Putin would be military people. It might be a military government in Russia, but I think he might not be a stand in front of international court because it would be domestic court and we

don't know what kind of court it would be. There aren't many people in your situation, you know, where they can say and they know that the Russian state killed their husband who got that sort of clarity and that sort of answer. You can't go back to Russia, can you? We have like a practical and theoretically. Theoretically, I could go to Russia, but practically you never know what might happen. I'm still a Russian citizen. And since I'm in Russia, I've never been treated as a British citizen. And they might not kill me, but I could not be able to go back to UK. And of course, I'm still a very important witness in case they still have their

own investigation. And they want me to prove a completely different view of what happened to my husband. And they can do this. They did it against a father of Sasha, Alexander Litvinenko. And again, you never know what might happen to you when you came to Russia. And I presume you've still got family and friends there. I do have friends, but communications since the Ukrainian war started became less. And even they are still very intelligent people, but believe to this propaganda. Really? Believe what they're saying on the TV page. Yes, unfortunately, what I said, what happened to this society

or what did not happen to this society since the Soviet Union collapsed. So your friends in Russia are behind the war in Ukraine. They're supporting it. They're not so active support. You might call them neutral. They are just trying to pretend it's happening something so far, but not to us. When you go to Moscow, you might find it looks like everything is normal. It's open cafe, people going for show, preparing for Christmas, for New Year.

But what I do believe, in this situation, you can't be neutral. You know, when you pretend you're neutral because you are a journalist or something, this is a situation I would call not of 50 shadows of grey anymore. This is a situation, black and white. If you're neutral, you support Putin. Very powerful, very powerful words to hear. Are you ever scared with your voice being so loud and the fact that you've continued as Sasha's wife, as the widow, to make sure what he was saying is being heard? Because I imagine, you know, with what happened to him here in the UK,

it must have been frightening for a long time and perhaps continues to be so, that you're safe and that your son is safe. You're absolutely right. It's a very British story and I had a lot of support with public attention and with a friend of mine. But you have to understand, I'm not alone. So many people raise their voice for what's happening in Russia. Some of them even arrested now as very prominent opposition leader Alexei Navalny, as a very famous international politician and journalist, Vladimir Karamurza.

And now we had another named Ilya Yashin, who was sentenced now for eight years for doing just nothing. And I'm not alone. And I don't think I'm doing more damaging for Putin. But I believe if more people would be saying this, more people around world would understand. It might make some sense and might help change the situation. Also, with the drama coming out on ITV, younger generations will perhaps learn about your husband, about your family and what's happened. I mentioned David Tennant is playing Sasha. I know you were quite struck by how much alike they looked by the time the makeup and all of that was sorted.

What is it like watching David Tennant play your husband? It was not easy. It's not just my experience of dramatization of this story. I've seen this on stage and this was opera. What was actually very, very close to similarity and opera singer was unbelievably looking like Sasha in hospital. But anyway, it was opera, it was singing. But seeing David Tennant in hospital, it was opera, it was singing. But seeing David Tennant in hospital, it just struck me

because he was too close, so similar. And when I showed this photo to a friend of mine who knew Sasha, and she just couldn't believe it's not Sasha. Really? And this is not only professionalism. You have to feel it to do this. And feeling for what Sasha came through, it was unbelievably painful.

And I think David even felt this pain when he was filmed. And the actor playing you as well, having to be in that role, must have been a strange thing, even though there have been, as you say, other dramatisations. It must be strange to see yourself on screen too. Yes, it's absolutely, it's very close and all details just front of you. And I'm very glad Margarita Leviva, she's a very lovely person and she's Russian

and sometimes it helps. Marina, thank you for talking to person and she's Russian. And sometimes it helps. Marina, thank you for talking to me and to our listeners. I'm also minded that we're speaking on a rare, very snowy day in the UK, something which as a Russian you'll be much more prepared for than perhaps lots of Brits. But it does, as we were just saying before we came on air together, it does also perhaps bring to mind how it is for the Ukrainians and the conditions at the moment with the country at war, but in very, very cold climes. You're right, Emma. And I always try to say to understand what is happening now in Ukraine, you need to be a little bit Ukrainian. 10%, 20%, 50%, it doesn't matter, just a little bit.

But now even the weather is helping to feel how to be Ukrainian. When you are staying in cold rooms without electricity and being very brave, when you talk to people, when you see these old YouTube channels from Ukraine, they're still very strong. They said, OK, we will keep this translation until we have this electricity. And they're incredibly creative

for helping people to survive. And I'm sure Ukraine will win because you can't kill physically, but you can't take your soul. Powerful words from Marina Litvinenko. I spoke to her just before coming on air this morning. She's portrayed alongside her late husband in the new ITV drama Litvinenko, starring David Tennant as Alexander, which we spoke about as well. And on tonight's front row here on Radio 4, you can hear my colleague Tom Sutcliffe talking to David Tennant, who's in that title role in that new TV drama. But, you know, something to think about, I suppose,

with the cold weather as well. We were reflecting there on nearly 10 months of the war in Ukraine. Now, you've been getting in touch with regards to the question about how you deal with when, largely, as it is for women, men approach you or have approached you on late nights, come up behind you perhaps or try to speak to you or essentially made an advance that is not welcome. And there are a number of strategies, it seems, that you are deploying. Let me come to those in just a moment but at the end of last week the government announced that street harassment from catcalling to following someone will be made a crime in England with jail sentences of up to two years. The Home Secretary

Suella Braverman has backed the move saying every woman should feel safe to walk on our streets but what is that reality? The TV reporter Ellie Flynn recently went undercover to highlight the experience of sexual harassment experienced by girls and women in the UK today. Secretly filmed, she was pretending to be drunk and separated from her friends on a busy night out, one in Liverpool, one in London. She's followed, grabbed and even pursued all the way back to her hotel room with one man coming inside that room. The result is her new Channel 4 documentary, Undercover Sexual Harassment, The Truth. Ellie's just joined me in the studio.

Ellie Flynn, good morning. Hi, good morning. We've got some messages here that I thought you would find interesting just to hear before we hear about your project. This is something I've thought about but never used. I would shout, how would you feel if someone did this to your mum, sister or partner? That's Rachel who's listening in York. Striking that she's never actually done it because a lot of people of course feel they can't. Whenever I encounter harassment, I immediately take out my phone. I pretend I'm talking to somebody, says Florence who's listening

in Manchester. I find that when the harassers think they don't have a captive audience, they can't quite get to you in the same way. I did it recently when I was having coffee with a female friend. A man had come in and was being a nuisance, but left as soon as he realised no one was listening. There are always men hanging around at the bottom of my street who like to stare and make comments. So I often deploy that technique and it has been better since then. What do you make of the idea of techniques? Yeah, it's a difficult one because the reality is we do need them. And I'm sure that plenty of women listening to this and hopefully watching the documentary will have their own experiences where they have used something like that.

But on the flip side, I think that so often when we have this conversation that Onus has put on women and we talk about measures that we can take to make ourselves feel safer, to protect ourselves in some way. When I think that really this needs to be a conversation about how we stop, as you say, usually men perpetrating this behaviour. And you were drawn to doing this because it's not the easiest task to go undercover, then pretend you're drunk, having cameras follow you. And, you know, you sort of have to go through with what's happening why did you want to do this so i've wanted to tackle the issue of sexual harassment in a documentary for quite a while and i've i've not really known exactly how to to get it across and what i really wanted to represent was that sort of constant fear that i feel as a woman you know when i do anything on my own really if I'm walking late at night if I'm sometimes even just making my way to work and you have someone who can be staring a bit too long or who can be following you or making you feel uncomfortable and when I've tried to

explain that to some of my male friends I think they never quite understood what the threat was or why I felt afraid of those those encounters and so I wanted to try and showcase that and I felt like the only way we could really do that was by by doing this undercover when you were talking there about the response of women there's a message here from Rebecca who's listening he says I've always encouraged my sons to cross to the other side of the road when they see a woman approaching this gives a clear signal to the woman that she's safe this must be taught more widely to our mainly wonderful young men who often get blamed for everything that's wrong in our society. So a male response there being indicated or being taught by a woman. Let's play. I refer to this

in my introduction. At one point, a man follows and pesters you in this production, in this experiment that you're doing and follows you all the way back to your hotel room. Let's listen to the moment from your documentary that you confront him. I can't believe this man has followed me all the way back to my hotel room. It's time for me to confront him. Sit down. On there. Why have you followed me here? Well, I didn't give you any indication that I wanted you to follow me here. So why have you followed me here? Well, I didn't give you any indication that I wanted you to follow me here.

So why have you followed me here? No, I told you I was fine on my own. What was that like, and what happened afterwards? It was really scary. It was, even though I had security with me, I had my team with me, and I was undercover, I knew I was protected, it felt very real in that moment moment and I felt very afraid. Because he had just walked in behind you?

He just followed me in, yeah. He followed me, you know, as I made my way back to the hotel room, he followed me. I repeatedly told him I was fine on my own, that I didn't need any help and that I was going home and repeated that a number of times. And he followed me. He followed me into my hotel and up to my hotel room where I then confronted him. After I confronted him, he did apologise and he does eventually leave. But it's only after I've confronted him and I'm obviously not drunk as I had been acting before that that he then apologises.

But there's a final part to that, that as he's leaving, what happens? As he's leaving, he turns around and says come on give me a kiss which for me I think really there was a moment where I was like well maybe he doesn't realize what he's done what he's done and as he was getting up to leave and it was that final moment where he turned around even after I've confronted him even after I've told him I don't want him there and he still harasses me, I think that really just, to me, felt like the final straw. I was like, I can't believe that he's doing this. I mean, it was also notable that you then make it clear you're not drunk as well,

which is part of what you were finding out, wasn't it? That there would be, in another instance, there are a couple of men who seem to be alerting each other to you as someone who could be vulnerable. Yeah, it felt like that was another time that I was followed and it felt like that was a very organised approach to looking for a drunk woman and it felt like those men were working together. One of them approached me, the other one followed behind

and that felt very targeted. What did you say or do and what strategies were you trying out to see what worked? I was just repeatedly saying, you know, I'm fine on my own. I don't need any help. I'm going to find my friends. I would sort of stop and stumble. I'd try and change direction a bit. But I was acting drunk and, you know, I was trying to act how I do when I am drunk, which is I sort of don't really look at what's going on around me, become quite insular. I was on my phone and I was just trying to ignore those men as they followed me.

And the men who were, where it did seem quite strategic and they'd noted you were drunk and perhaps then could be in their minds an easier target. Were they drunk? Do you know? I don't know if they were or not. Not that it makes necessarily, it's just interesting to try and yeah because you're not often in a situation where you've got camera crews security and you're pretending to be drunk yeah exactly and and I can't say 100% whether they were or weren't because I don't know but it seemed to me that they weren't they seem to be sober men

who are hanging around outside bars and clubs and approaching me who appeared to be a drunk woman having done this what about your view on this perhaps has changed or what's what's kind of been left with you as the impact I think really what I took from this is how normalized this kind of harassment had become for me and how I really I wasn't even acknowledging it and these are things that happen all the time and I think I've become so used to it and I really I wasn't even acknowledging it and these are things that happen all the time and I think I've become so used to it and I really had seen it as part and parcel of growing up and being a woman and actually seeing putting myself in that situation you know and I have been drunk before like that I have lost my friends before and seeing it in a sober way

really made me realize sort of you know how vulnerable I've been at times and how much this kind of behavior happens and I think that's what I really want to highlight is the scale of this. And you also went online you did undercover posing online on certain sites and that was an eye-opener in a different way. It was so I posed as an 18 year old I used photos of me when I was 18 and signed up to a number of dating apps. And I attached social media profiles to those dating apps. And I was bombarded with unsolicited nude images. Almost every day I was receiving a new photo from men who I'd had a very, very short, brief conversation with.

And sometimes men who I'd never even spoken to at all were sending me these images and and with with what sort of captions or words or really graphic um graphic sexual messages um in some cases uh really graphic videos sometimes um photos sometimes it would come just with with no comment at all it would just be sent it was and i confronted a number of these men after they sent me the photos or videos and they didn't seem to know why they'd sent them afterwards either you know they seemed kind of confused to have been confronted um and they didn't really have an explanation as to what they were trying to get out of it or why they'd sent me that were they expecting do you think a similar sort of photo in exchange or is just kind of

part of the common parlance of dating on certain sites i think it's i think it's not dating you know what i mean i know what you mean i think it is i think it is that i think and i think what i came to in the end is really the motive is exactly the same as any other sexual assault that these men are sending them because they get some sort of gratification out of it. They enjoy sending me a photo of them, which I haven't consented to, which I didn't want. And so really, why is that any different from flashing me in the street or from any other sexual assault?

Another message here, Maz listening in London. The sad reality is every woman who lives in a city has a tactic for dealing with men when they approach you. I've tried being feisty, tried telling men don't approach women on the street, but that tends to feed them and make you think you're having an ongoing conversation so they follow you for longer. Sadly, the most effective technique I've found to get rid of followers is when I've been lucky enough for other passers-by to notice the situation and step in. That's something I wanted to bring up with you. I'm forever grateful to a man on Bethnal Green Road in London who i made panicked eye contact with late one night this summer when i

was being pestered on the way home he saw my fear immediately walked up next to the man distracted him by talking him talking to him so i could walk ahead bystanders people in the street what were they doing when all this was happening to you yeah they were walking past i mean there were huge numbers of people in both locations that we filmed in um who didn't seem to notice this was happening to you? Yeah, they were walking past. I mean, there were huge numbers of people in both locations that we filmed in who didn't seem to notice what was happening or didn't intervene if they did notice. And look, it's not necessarily by Sanders' fault. You know, these are people who were also on a night out,

who were also enjoying themselves and maybe didn't notice the threat that was there. But I think it's something that I hope people can take from this documentary is to try and look out for those things. And it is particularly men that I hope that can look out for it a bit more because I think that women are hyper-conscious of those threats and I think that you are more aware of someone if he's staring, if he's lurking a bit too long.

So you would have welcomed interventions, especially from men? I would have, yeah. And I know that there can be, and something that men say when I speak about this is, oh, well, how do you intervene? What if you then look like a threat? And I think that there are ways of doing it. You can approach and you can say,

have you got any friends nearby? Can I help you find them? Would you like me to help you order an Uber or another safe way of getting home? Or someone in authority authority there's police there's police around there might be security around at local clubs i mean yeah we haven't even mentioned you know are there police around are there those sorts of people you can go to the authorities two of the most formidable people who've ever helped me were women actually i think

they're a mother and daughter and they sort of flanked me on either side when i was having a difficult time actually on a train but your point being is people have to notice this stuff in the first place. Thank you for coming to talk to us about this experiment that's ended up in a documentary. It was for that. Ellie Flynn is who you've been listening to. It's called Ellie's Undercover, this documentary. Sexual Harassment, The Truth is on Channel 4 this evening at 10 o'clock.

All the best with that. Your message is still coming in about what you what you do really if you do have a strategy if women didn't respond to the graphic images men sent them abuse would stop reads this message in response to the idea of it being online full stop women should get a grip and don't allow it i don't know if that's from a man or a woman i don't know anything else about you but i think often what you've just heard is it was unsolicited on every level so I'm not quite sure how that would work but you've sent that message anyway I'm reading it out Sally says I had a business which employed young people in the 80s one of the girls was attacked by a taxi driver in the 2000s I had two teenage girls and we had a rule that they had to

photograph the taxi as they got in they would then say that my mother insists I do this and send it to her and if he was a bad guy there would then be evidence so he would not attack them they still do it to this day I notice every day on my cycle path to my local news agent let me just read this one more to you that nearly every woman lowers her eyes as they approach me I always make a point of saying hello as I walk by it's a shame that women are taught to be victims body language needs to be taught to young women this is a part of the training that young are taught to be victims. Body language needs to be taught to young women. This is a part of the training that young men need to be decent human beings. Women are taught to be victims.

Again, I don't know much about you or who this is. I presume it's a man from the way it's been written. I think it's actually what we've just been discussing, which is the entire environment, the climate you find yourself in, and how that then puts you in a position to feel like you need to proactively respond and not make eye contact. I certainly avoid it at all times. I don't feel I've been taught to be a victim. Keep your messages coming in and what you think on this. You can hear I'll read them and I won't know necessarily where you're coming from on this, but I'll read them anyway.

And we want to hear your views. Archaeologists, though, let's go to something from a time beyond, have discovered something we wanted to bring you more detail on, an ancient burial ground in Harpole in Northamptonshire, which they claim is the most important female burial site ever discovered in Britain. Dating from around 650D, the site contained the teeth of a woman who was buried upon a bed with a 30-piece necklace of

intricately wrought gold, garnets and semi-precious stones. The woman is thought to be a Christian leader of significant wealth. Tell us more about this rather astonishing discovery. Lynn Blackmore, Senior Finds Specialist at the Museum of London Archaeology and Irina Dumitrescu, Professor for Medieval English Literature at the University of Bonn and host of the podcast miniseries, Close Readings, Encounters with Medieval Women. Thank you to you both. Lynn, I'll start with you. Why is this find so significant? Tell us a bit more. Hello. It's significant for a number of reasons.

It's got the greatest in terms of actual physical wealth. It's got the... I'm so, so sorry, Lynn, to cut across to you. Your line is... Lynn, if we can just hear you a little bit. I'm sorry to cut across to you. Your line's going in and out. Maybe you could stop the video on that particular call to try and stabilise the line. Let me go to Irina. Why is this so significant and why perhaps are you excited about this discovery? of a lot of 7th century writing about noble women and their jewelry. So there's this really long-standing prejudice in the church against ornamentation, you know, women doing their hair, putting on makeup, wearing silks or linens or bright colors.

And yet it's clear that Anglo-Saxon abbesses were often royal or had royal connections, and they had the taste to go with it. So, you know, we see in Bede, for example, he tells this great story about St. Ethelthrith or Audrey. She dies of the plague, but before she dies, she has this tumor underneath her jaw. And she tells people that the tumor is because she used to wear fine necklaces when she was a young woman. So even as a very holy woman who's managed to stay a virgin in two royal marriages or noble marriages, she still has the sense that this was a vain and sinful thing to do for which she has to make up. So the jewellery becomes quite a key part of this,

a way of understanding and also placing people. Yes, I mean, it's a sign of nobility. It's a little bit, depends what kind of woman this was, right? If it was a royal woman, then I think it just wouldn't be surprising. But some people have suggested that it might be an abbess, in which case we would get a glimpse into the way a powerful Christian woman would maintain these signs of rank and power and authority. Lynne, let me come back to you. Hello, Lynne. Hello. It's still not the best line, but we'll try and persevere.

You were saying why this find is so significant. Well, yes, coming back to the necklace it is it is um something that would have defined a woman a woman member of the aristocracy and also a member of the church because there is quite a lot of documentary evidence in in um bead and other sources who refer to these wealthy women who were at the forefront of Christianisation wearing their necklaces and as we've just been told about sometimes the problems they have in correlating, yes, I want to wear this necklace and oh, it's actually not the right thing to do. In this case, it is possible that she wasn't actually wearing the necklace that she was buried with,

that it was hidden under another garment on the burial. But these women seem to be carrying on doing, you know, being quite ostentatious with their jewellery until about 680 or so. And then the church bead and other members of the church were, male members, were sort of coming down on it not being appropriate anymore. And I understand there were a number of elite male burial sites in the 7th century, but they declined after that and women's burial sites increased.

What do we know about that? That's right. There was a big study published in 2013, which has sample finds from about 600 burials. And from that, with radiocarbon dating and from that, we've been able to build a fairly good, solid chronology for burials of both men and women from the late 6th and the 6th into 7th century. That shows that the number of objects buried with people generally was declining from the mid 6th century. But around the end of that century, you get a sort of wave of very wealthy men buried with it very lavishly in chambers with loads of artefacts. And that continues, there's not many of them, but it continues to about 6.30. The first one that we've dated is at Prittlewell, which Moeller excavated. And the last one, the latest one we know of, is at Sutton Hoo.

And then after that, women seem to become more prominent. Again, the normal person is having less artifacts but um women seem to be becoming more obvious with the objects that are being buried with them that doesn't mean that men are becoming less powerful they're just not buried in the same way and maybe swords have seemed to be not culturally appropriate to be putting in your barrel anymore but women are becoming more obvious with the more sort of luxurious grave goods they have with them, which were whatever was put in the grave

was to symbolise the wealth and status and other roles of the deceased in their community. And this is sort of demonstrating that women were becoming more important in various ways. Irina, you think we're having a bit of a medieval moment, especially for women. Why? Well, I see a lot of writers turning to medieval figures, either real ones or imagined ones,

and trying to tell stories about women's voices, about women's empowerment, sometimes about women's marginalisation. So, you know, just in the past few years, we've had Lauren Groff. Her novel Matrix is nominally about Marie de France, but is actually about an abbess sort of running a proto-feminist utopian socialist experiment in this imaginary monastery. Maria Heidly is a sci-fi writer who's written two books based on Beowulf. One of them is a sort of modern, slightly hip-hoppy translation, and another one sets

Beowulf in a Stepford Wife utopia, or dystopia, I should say, and explores the female characters and their desires and their fears through that. Yeah, well, it does seem to be the interest. I know you're also talking about this in a podcast. And some of the lists of the subjects for your podcast, nuns' letters, women's laments caught my eye. Tell us a bit more about that. Yeah, so, you know, one of the stories that's told about Anglo-Saxon England, especially, is that there's no women's writing.

And scholars have changed that in the past few decades. And part of the problem is women who are writing in early medieval England were writing in Latin, not in English. So they tend not to be in the story of English literature. But we have these fantastic letters in Latin from English nuns in the 8th century who were active in Germany. They were out there to do missionary work. I should say here because I am in Germany. And they write about very practical things,

you know, letters of reference, asking for gifts, making all kinds of arrangements, you know, they're copying books and that sort of thing. But they also have this very emotional, passionate language describing their sense of exile, their loneliness, how they miss their siblings or, you know, these letters are to Boniface, the Archbishop Boniface, or how they miss him as well. So, you know, it's an attempt to kind of touch a woman's voice from 1,300 years later. From a long time ago.

From a long time ago. And realise that they were there, but not necessarily being heard or read or seen. Irina Dubitrescu, thank you very much. That podcast miniseries, Close Readings, Encounters with Medieval Women and Lynn Blackmore, Senior Finds Specialist at the Museum of London Archaeology Department.

Just a couple more messages here. Rose says, who's listening in London, says, if I feel caught in the gaze of unwanted attention, this is going back to strategies that you've come up with to deal with sexual harassment on the streets. We've heard that catcalling is now going to be a crime in England and also following.

I look cross and angry and aggressively sigh out loud to give the impression I am agitated, unafraid and unaware of the attention, even if I'm trembling on the inside. And one here says from Jane, My daughter-in-law, five foot two and petite, is a cage fighter and a nurse. I'm trembling on the inside. And one here says from Jane, my daughter-in-law, five foot two and petite, is a cage fighter and a nurse.

She was accosted by a large man who demanded her phone. She just said no and he went away. I just wonder how she said that. And I imagine her stance ready to take him on that she stopped him, that that was the thing that did. Tells us a lot about how our attitude can influence the outcome. Not always. Wish I could be that convincing. By the way, she was disappointed she didn't get to confront him

physically. Thanks for the programme. Well, thanks for the message and thanks for listening. Now, I mentioned at the start of the programme that it was revealed just as I was coming on air that the author, JK Rowling, is founding and personally funding a new female-only service for survivors of sexual violence in Edinburgh. I'm going to be speaking to the Daily Telegraph journalist Suzanne Moore in a moment. She got the scoop on this story and has interviewed JK Rowling about it. But first, we wanted to look at the background, certainly the politics of this. The Scottish Government is planning to change the Gender Recognition Act to make the process quicker and removes the need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

It's being debated in Parliament. We'll go to a final vote this month, December 21st. David Wallace-Lockhart, our political correspondent at Westminster, has been following this story and joins me now. Good morning. Hi, Emma. Can you remind us what the government is proposing, what Nicola Sturgeon has certainly come under attention for? So the gender recognition reform bill will be up for its final vote next week at

Holyrood and it is expected to pass through quite comfortably. And the significant changes that that piece of legislation will make, it means for anyone looking in Scotland to legally change their gender, they'll have to live in their acquired gender for just three months rather than the current rules, which are two years. And as you mentioned, they'll no longer need to go to a GP and get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Now, for fans of this legislation, they say that this just streamlines a process

that can be incredibly complex for people who are transgender and want to legally change their gender. For critics of the bill, they're concerned about this move towards what they call self-ID and the idea of the effect that it could have on women's only spaces. Now, it has been a controversial piece of legislation. It's seen the biggest SNP rebellion since the SNP came to power in Scotland in 2007. Nine MSPs defying the whip on this. But as I mentioned, it does have the support of Labour.

It's got the support of the Lib Dems, the support of the Greens. So it will pass, bearing any major upset quite easily next week. And how does this differ to the current UK-wide rules? Because it's been reported that Kemi Bade, and of course people remember her for trying to be Prime Minister in the latest race, the Minister for Women for the UK government is said to be concerned about this potential law change and has questioned how it would sit within the UK as a whole. Absolutely, yeah. So once upon a time when Theresa May was Prime Minister

actually, there was a feeling that the Scottish government and the UK government were moving broadly in the same direction on this, which would have made things probably realistically a lot less complicated. Problem is, Theresa May left and different prime ministers came in, but all took the same view that they didn't want to change the process for legally changing your gender in England and Wales. So longer timescale and the need for that medical diagnosis, that will persist in England and Wales. And the big question that raises there is complexities around when the law does change in Scotland.

What happens if someone changes their gender legally in Scotland, gets one of those gender recognition certificates, legal acknowledgement your gender has changed, and then perhaps decides to move elsewhere in the UK? Well, I've been hearing from UK government sources that they may not recognise Scottish gender recognition certificates. That raises huge questions for complexities that could arise for someone who did change gender and then move elsewhere in the UK.

And the idea of a legal challenge isn't even being ruled out with concerns in the UK government about changes in Scotland potentially spilling over to affect areas that are reserved to Westminster. Scottish government believes that this is a fully devolved issue and therefore there would not be grounds for the UK government to challenge it legally. But we don't yet know. Of course, it hasn't gone through, as you say, that's still to

come. And then we don't know what will happen next but it's a it's a complex area which we wanted to make sure we filled in uh some of those blanks perhaps for some of our listeners on the politics of this and the context of this announcement by jk rowling david wallace lockhart stay with us for just a few moments because i'm going to talk now a bit more about what the author has done it's called the place that she's founded it's called byra's place we invited jk rowling onto woman's hour this morning. Actually, we've been told she isn't doing interviews. She has done one, and I'm going to speak to Suzanne Moore, the journalist who's done that interview

in just a moment, but she isn't doing anything else we're told at the moment. But in a press release, JK Rowling has written the following. She says, I founded Byra's Place to provide what I believe is currently an unmet need for women in the area. As a survivor of sexual assault myself, I know how important it is that survivors have the option of women-centred

and women-delivered care at such a vulnerable time. Byra's Place will offer an increasing capacity for services in the area and will, I hope, enable more women to process and recover from their trauma. Let's talk now to Suzanne Moore, who writes a column on her own newsletter, on her own sub-stat and also for the Daily Telegraph. Good morning. Hello, Emma. Thanks for joining us today. And JK has spoken to you, JK Rowling, about this new service. We've heard about the name as well, and I believe you visited it. Yes, I was lucky enough to go up and to see Byra's place. And what is it like? What is the hope for it? She talks about an unmet need. Well, the hope is to increase capacity. We know that rape is on the rise in England and in Scotland in the last year,

25%. It's to provide, as she said, women-centred services delivered by women, because all surveys show that that is what women ask for, especially in times of vulnerability and trauma. And this is in response to, we just mentioned the political context. Is it in response to that? Is it also in response to the services that are already available not doing what she thinks needs to be done? I think it's complex. I think some of it possibly is, but you have to understand that a project like this has been years in the making. This isn't suddenly, you know, she's just decided to do this. She's gathered together a team of experts,

people who've worked in rape crisis centres. And I think what she really wants to ensure is that this is not a charity that's subject to the whims of whoever is in power, whether that be the SNP or whoever, and that its funding is never under threat because we have seen certain rape centres in the UK whose funding is under threat when women have refused to join in groups where it is not women only. And let's get to that because we've got a statement from Scotland Rape Crisis

which says, Rape Crisis services across Scotland are experiencing huge demand, as you were just talking about. This demand, combined with a lack of sustainable funding, is leading to some centres facing very difficult waiting lists. You've also just talked about that. And then it carries on to say, we, of course, welcome any new service which puts in place rigorous safeguarding procedures and is staffed by highly trained professionals

to support survivors of sexual violence. But it goes on to say, it is crucial that the life-saving support offered by rape crisis centres is available to trans and non-binary people. All rape crisis centres services in Scotland offer support to trans women and have done so for 15 years. There has not been a single incident of anyone abusing this we continue to see the path to equality for women and trans people as being deeply interconnected and dependent on shared efforts to dismantle systems of discrimination what do you make of that having interviewed jk rolling about well why she's doing this and been doing it you know planning it for years i think that one of the spurs for this was simply the statement that at a time when women are vulnerable,

they should be re-educated and have any prejudice they might have reframed. And I think she felt that this just wasn't appropriate and that she was answering, as she says, the unmet need for women to be treated only by women. I mean, it's really simple. And in some ways, it's really not got a lot to do with the whole trans issue and the incredibly complex politics of Scotland. It is to do with increasing capacity. And as someone tweeted to me, you know, it's like, you're a feminist, you win the lottery. What do you do?

You know, JK could spend the rest of her life on a Caribbean island. We all know that. In fact, she is doing something to improve the lives of the most vulnerable people. And for that, I mean, I think it's just fantastic. Why do you think she chose to talk to you? She famously doesn't do very many interviews. Well, she chose to talk to me only on my substack. She refused to do it for the press. We've met a couple of times.

I think perhaps, I don't know, really. I mean, I don't know her very well, but I think we always have quite a laugh. I mean, that doesn't really come over in the interview because it's a serious subject. But I think she also recognises that while she has been under attack for standing up for the rights of women, so have I. So I think perhaps there's a bond there.

There's a bond there. And you do address that. I mean, she actually says in your piece that I was reading when it came out this morning, that, you know, she doesn't consider herself cancelled, but she does talk about some of those threats and some of those responses that she has had well i mean she she lives under constant threat yes she does and and for some ridiculous reason since rushdie was stabbed the threat level increased susan well lots lots more to say but we wanted to make sure we spoke to you this broke as i say we were just coming on air uh on your, as we mentioned there, Substack, your newsletter, which people may or may not be aware of

and they can read more context there. And I shared what JK Rowling had to say to David Wallace-Lockhart. Thank you for our political commentary there who's been covering this story across Westminster and Scotland. And there will be more developments which we'll cover as they happen.

Suzanne Moore, thank you. David Wallace-Lockhart, thank you. And thank you to you for your company this morning. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, it's Chris Van Tulleken here. My brother Zand.

That's me. I'm here too. And I are back. Now, in series two of our Radio 4 podcast, A Thorough Examination, we are on a mission to find out whether or not people can change. It's called Can I Change? We're thinking about all the things we want to change about ourselves and

each other. Wait, what? I want to be more confident. I'd like to be less of a people pleaser. I'd like to be more of an extrovert, but then sometimes I also think I should shut up. A quiet confident man. That's very attractive.

Yeah, I'd like a quiet confidence. I think everyone has something they'd like to change about themselves. Change is important to me because I think it's going to improve the key relationships in my life, and one of those is you, Zand. You can change whatever you like. Just don't make me do it again. Well, nonetheless, Zand, we are going to speak to some experts who are going to guide us through the idea of change.

The last time you made me do this, it changed my life for the better. Yeah. But I still don't want to do it. And if you at home think there's something stuck in your life that needs changing, this might be helpful for you too. Search for A Thorough Examination with Drs Chris and Zond on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.