Woman's Hour - Marisha Wallace on Cabaret, Giving birth in prison, DR Congo, Ethical fashion

Episode Date: February 7, 2025

The West End star Marisha Wallace joins Anita Rani in the studio. She's the latest actor to play Sally Bowles in Cabaret at The Kit Kat Club in London, alongside Billy Porter who plays Emcee. Marisha talks about the significance of them both playing these roles together and her journey to the top. The UN has reported that more than 100 female prisoners were raped and then burned alive during a jailbreak in the Congolese city of Goma. The conflict in eastern DR Congo dates back to the 1990s but has rapidly escalated in recent weeks. Since the start of 2025, more than 400,000 people have been forced from their homes, according to the UN's refugee agency. We’re joined by Anne Soy, the BBC’s Deputy Africa Editor & Senior Correspondent based in Nairobi. What's it like giving birth in prison? New play Scenes from Lost Mothers, currently touring universities and prisons, explores the real-life experiences of pregnant women and new mothers in prison. Performed by actors with lived experience of the criminal justice system, or at risk of entering it, it’s based on research from the Lost Mothers Project and explores the impact of separating imprisoned mothers from their newborns. We hear from the project's lead, midwife and associate professor, Dr Laura Abbott, and a mother shares her experience. Emma Hakansson is an ex-model turned ethical fashion campaigner and film director, who founded her own organisation - Collective Fashion Justice. She joins Anita to talk about her new film featuring a community of women in the Amazon who make a sustainable leather alternative which helps keep their environment protected. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Sarah Jane Griffiths Editor: Deiniol Buxton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning. We are all welcome at the Cabaret today. I'm delighted to tell you I'll be joined by West End star Marisha Wallace, who's currently playing Sally Bowles, the lead in cabaret, and she is extraordinary. Also on the programme today, you will hear from a young woman about her experience of giving birth in prison and being separated from her baby.

And the model who realised fashion did not sit with her ethical beliefs. She refused to wear leather and fur and was soon dropped by her agent. However, she now works to improve the ethics in fashion. So this morning, I'd like to hear from you about the thing that you fought for in your life. What have you felt passionately about to take some kind of stand for? And did it change your life? Maybe your political stance has made um meant that you've lost friends did you march for something campaign for change or something local in your community

or a deeply held belief when i was in the sixth form a million years ago in the jurassic age um we campaigned to try and get trousers uh allowed in our girls school it didn't happen the year i was there but the year after I left, trousers were allowed. Success. So get in touch with the programme. What have you campaigned for? About your beliefs and how it's impacted your life.

The text number is 84844. You can also email the programme. It's via our website. You can contact us on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour or WhatsApp the programme on 03700 100 444. But the text number once again, 84844.

But first, according to the UN, it's been reported that more than 100 female prisoners were raped and then burned alive during a jailbreak in the Congolese city of Goma. The conflict in Eastern Democratic Republic of Congo dates back to the 1990s, but has rapidly escalated in recent weeks. Since the start of 2025, more than 400,000 people have been forced from their homes, according to the UN's Refugee Agency. Well, I'm now joined by Anne Soy, who's BBC Deputy Africa Editor and Senior Correspondent based in Nairobi, to understand more about this. And I think we should start by understanding and

you telling us what you can about this horrific story. Very horrific. We understand that the female prisoners who are in Munzenze prison were attacked by their male counterparts. As a result of the fighting that has been going on in the city of Goma, which is in eastern Congo, there was a jailbreak and the male inmates first made their way out of the male prison. And we understand that during this chaos, they broke into the female prison, raped between 165 and 167 women, assaulted them.

And then as they were leaving, they set their jail on fire, the female jail on fire. There were pictures we could see where lots of men were jumping over walls and coming out of the prison. And in the background, there was fire that could be seen. So really, really horrific scenes from Goma. The women who were being held prisoner, what do we know about them? little really um because this is a prison that was basically holding all sorts of um people who are accused and those who've been

convicted um and amidst all the chaos um more than a week ago the the governor of North Kivu, which is the province where Goma is, was killed because he'd gone to the front line to fight against the rebels. And so there was a breakdown of the administration in the area. And as the rebels took control of the city amidst all the chaos, then there was this jailbreak and many of the men we could see pictures of them running to the streets of goma and you know blending into the community um we will discuss in a moment just what's happening there and what what is going on but what about the men involved what do we know about them um so there haven't been any efforts that we are aware of to try and find out where they are. And so it's anyone's guess where they could be in the city. This is a city that has been under a lot of tension as a result of the fighting and the takeover.

Right now, there's a lot of confusion as to who is in charge because the rebels have announced their own administration. The national government in Kinshasa appointed a new administration over the city and so the people are confused as to who now is in charge and nobody knows where these prisoners have gone. I must ask, are there any survivors, do we know? Very little information has been coming from there. As you can imagine, while the fighting was going on and this change of hands, that's not very clear. Humanitarian organisations are among those people who have been fleeing. Anybody who is not a local, including some of the locals, have been fleeing from the area.

So there's been very little information coming from Goma. And so the situation right now is more calm. There's no fighting, at least in the vicinity. The locals have been telling us that there's sporadic gunfire. But beyond that, it's much calmer. But the last two weeks has been a very challenging time for the locals. As you said, there's been an increased escalation of violence in the area during a rebel takeover of Goma. So what's actually going on?

The M23 rebels have been taking over territory over time. They've been fighting for at least two years. But this dates back to the 90s. So you can see the easiest way to actually try to understand the conflict that is going on right now is as a spillover of the 1994 genocide in Rwanda. And so you had a huge population of and the genocide was basically pitting two groups, the Hutus against the Tutsis and more than 800,000, mainly Tutsis ethnic group, were killed. And now when they were overpowered, finally, many of them fled across the border to Eastern Democratic Republic of Congo. And at some point they were pursued by some of the Tutsi who are now in the National Army there. Now, many years later, they formed together a group called the FDLR, which is basically a force that was keen on overthrowing the government in Rwanda. And then there's also a separate group, the M23, which constitutes mostly the Tutsi, who are the victims in the

genocide, who also came up in Eastern Congo. But many of them say that they are Watutsis who lived for a long time from even before independence in eastern Congo. And so they've been vying for, they've been pushing for recognition from Kinshasa, the government in Kinshasa. So they have their own local grievances that they have been putting forward. But also they have been fighting against this group that they believe consists of former genocides. So it's a complicated conflict in a region that is very mineral rich. They have gold, many of the critical minerals that are used in the manufacture of batteries for EV vehicles, for mobile phones.

So it's a very wealthy area beneath the soil. And then there are dozens of groups. These are not the only two armed groups operating in that area. But of late, the biggest conflict has been by the M23 that has been gaining more and more territory in eastern Congo and now is in charge of the largest city in the east of the Democratic Republic of Congo, something that has not gone down well with the national government. And during this conflict and the horror and

the chaos, it's women and children who are suffering. In fact, the UN's Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights has warned that sexual violence is being used as a weapon of war by rival groups. And UN Women has said this week it's deeply concerned about the increased vulnerability for women and girls in DRC. So can you tell us more about what they've said? That's right. They're calling for the protection of women and children in particular. And this incident that happened in the prison is just a snapshot of what happens. This is an area where they've had multiple conflicts going on for a long time. And often women and children are the most vulnerable. And so UN Women has been calling for the protection of women,

even as the efforts that are going on in the region to try and restore peace in the area. The casualty levels have been very high. In the past two weeks, at least 2,900 people, we understand, were killed. As things began to settle, bodies were found strewn on the streets. Some of the humanitarian workers who have been coming back were busy collecting the bodies and trying to bury them. The morgues were overflowing, and they had gone without power for days.

And you can imagine how difficult the conditions have been. No water, no power. Almost 3,000 people killed. And so it's been a very tough time for the locals there. And, you know, the hospitals are also overflowing with people who are wounded from the fighting. So in and amongst all of that, what measures are being taken to try and protect civilians, especially women and children? Right now, it is just total chaos. It's absolutely, there's no sense of order there with all the confusion in terms of who is in charge. But the regional bodies, the East African community and their South African, Southern African counterpart have held separate meetings. And from today, they are holding a joint meeting to try and bring the governments of the Democratic Republic of Congo and Rwanda. Rwanda, because the Kigali government has been accused of backing M23 rebels, they're trying to bring the two sides together to try and find a lasting solution for Eastern Congo. Ansoy, thank you very much for speaking to us. That's Ansoy,

BBC Deputy Africa Editor and Senior Correspondent who's based out in Nairobi. Anne, thank you very much. 84844 is the text number. Now, the fashion industry is responsible for the wealth of five out of the top 20 richest people in the world. But it's also responsible for a lot of damage to our planet. And it's tied to around 10% of global emissions. Well, our next guest, Emma Harkinson, is a former model who now runs her own ethical fashion organisation, Collective Fashion Justice. She's recently returned from the Amazon where she made a film about a community of women who use the forest

around them to make a sustainable leather alternative called sheringa. It's leather, a type of leather. It's not leather. It's an alternative. Well, Emma can tell us all about it. She joins us now from Australia. Is it morning? Is it evening? Welcome. I should just say welcome, Emma. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Hi, thanks for having me. It's the evening here. Evening, lovely. Sustainable or ethical fashion? What actually is it? So I coined the term total ethics fashion, which is supposed to kind of cut through the binary

of either sustainable or ethical fashion because the real thing we need to be recognising is that the wellbeing of people, our fellow animals and the planet is interconnected. So if we only talk about one or two of those things, we're not really getting to the core of what we need to do. And this shoringa bio leather is a beautiful example of a future fashion material that ticks all three of those boxes. The women are able to defend against deforestation, which is rife in the Peruvian

Amazon, both for cattle ranching and mining that is associated with traditional animal-dried leather and mining for fashion. They're also able to support themselves and their children and their community economically because of this. They're paid much more fairly than they would for a lot of other work. And as compared to animal-dried leather, it's got a significantly reduced climate impact. And of course, there's no animal suffering. How did you hear about the women? So actually, it was early on when the charity was so small that I saw every time a new person followed our Instagram. And a material innovation company from Lima in Peru that has a conservation

agreement with the Awohon people of the Amazon followed us. And I was interested in the work. And over some years we developed a relationship. And you went out there to make this very beautifully shot, very interesting short film. What was it like to meet the community and watch the process? I think going there was such a stark example of how fashion can be at both its worst and its best because I was hearing about what the deforestation is like, the history and colonial history of exploitation that has come into the fashion industry in that region and then I've seen the opposite where these trees are carved into around the trunks only a few in a way that is regenerative. So one of the women in the film doris told me that for

generations they had been working with the same tree that they were showing me um and they were able to do so many things with this material so it was a really encouraging thing to see we should explain what it is really shouldn't we that they sort of um extract a sap you correct me from a tree and then they paint cotton with it, and it turns it into a different material. So a syringa tree, yes. A syringa tree is a type of rubber tree, so it's essentially a rubber latex sap.

And they collect it, and then they pour it over a native Peruvian cotton. They mix it with some natural dyes that they also collect from the area, and they do that a number of times and with every layer the texture and consistency becomes more leather-like. What do you want people to take away from this film? I created this film because I was the judge at the Milan Fashion Film Festival a couple years ago and there's all the creative directors from fashion brands there versace the big guys and i realized that all of our reports about the harms of the leather industry had never

made it past the sustainability team and up to those creative decision makers and that's a real problem but it is also an example of what i think is true for a lot of people we're inspired by beautiful creative things and by solutions. And so this is trying to harness that and encourage people to say, I would love to see this. And when I look at a brand that is not paying living wages or not using a fair material, I'm going to contact them and tell them how I love the creativity of what they're doing. But I would like to be purchasing something made like this. And I won't be going there until they do. So you saw something and thought, I could shake this up a bit, disrupt it a bit and put something

else, get people thinking about something else. I want to talk about you because I'm fascinated by your own story because you started out as a model. You became a model at a very young age. Yes. And what happened? You decided that it wasn't, well, it wasn't that you decided, you were actually dropped by your agent because of what you stand for. I was. So originally, I was in the fashion industry without much ethical consideration for anything. Because I was so young, I was 15 when I started, which is its own ethical issue, I think. But I started to become aware of the fact that I was having fur put on me

I was having clothes made by people who were not paid a living wage which 85% of the people who make our clothes are women of color so that's a feminist issue as well and I became uncomfortable with that so I started saying no to wearing animal drive materials no to fast fashion and in the fashion industry that means you say no to a lot of jobs and my agency didn't think they were making enough money off me basically so they dropped me and I felt that if I wanted to retain my position in the fashion industry which I did because I love it for its creativity then I would need to do it differently and so I set towards trying to change the industry because you should be able to model and have ethical values. But that's quite, it says something about you though, it's quite remarkable to have

that much sort of power in your conviction because it must have been a difficult decision to leave. It was. I'd just moved to Sydney because in Australia that's the place to be a model. I had high rent and suddenly I had no job. So I started working at a charity call center and then I kind of got myself together and worked it out. And I'm really glad that I did. And there were a few kind of moments that made me realize it was worthwhile, including I went to Cambodia when I had been a couple of years younger. And just by chance, I met a woman called Kunthia, who was the co-founder of an ethical brand called Dorsu. And she previously was working in a sweatshop. So she was telling me about the conditions in a sweatshop with women having their babies on the ground because they couldn't afford to look after them as compared to where they were now.

And I was very confronted with what I, as a woman in a different country, was helping to sell. So that was a big part of why I felt it was important. You wrote an article for Alliance magazine in December in which you spoke about fashion being seen as feminine and frivolous industry. What impact do you think that has, people having that stance? I think because fashion is seen as a feminine pursuit, it's taken less seriously.

But the impact of fashion supply chains are incredibly serious. It's hugely destructive. It's hugely exploitative for animals and for people and for our planet. I think if we look at other more typically considered masculine industries like tech, the amount of investment into research and development for sustainable solutions is much more significant. And I think that is in part because the largely feminine workforce is taken less seriously and because it's just seen as something that is unnecessary. But we all wear clothes. The production process isn't something we consumers have control of. Also, we're so part of it, aren't we? We're in the system and we are picking up magazines on

a weekly basis. We're just seeing images everywhere on our phones of clothes and beautiful fashion, and we all want a piece of it and it makes us feel great and whatever it is. What can we all do? What can us ordinary weak people do to just help a little bit in our small way? What would you suggest? I think the biggest thing is to actually build a better relationship with the wardrobe that you already have hot or cool institute data says that in the western world within planetary boundaries we can really only afford to buy five newly made garments each year which is a lot less than what people in the uk are buying and if we are buying less it also means we can afford to spend a little bit more

on those purchases, which means spending in brands that are paying living wages, that are protecting animals and the planet. So that's a really big thing. And it's also going to help us curate our own personal style more. I also think speaking to brands and saying what you want is a really important thing.

Tell brands what you want ethically. And Emma, if I gave you the magic wand and you could create your utopia, what would it look like? What would the fashion industry look like? I'd ask for a couple of things. Just transition beyond fossil fuel-based, animal-derived and deforestation-driven materials, living wages for everyone in the supply chain

and a circular system that exists within planetary boundaries. It's been a real pleasure talking to you and your film is incredibly beautiful so thank you for speaking to us this morning Emma Harkinson and that film Shoringa is available to watch online and you are getting in touch with things that you feel passionately about and that may have changed your life. Julia says I'm a farmer 12 years ago I started work with excluded teenagers on our farm every child has a right to education classroom learning isn't for everyone i set up longlands care farm we have 30 youngsters a week helping with work we changed the direction of young lives very good work ryan in paul says

your story of trouser protest yes i protested so that we could wear them it took me back to my school where a group of girls at school also protested to wear trousers the school policy strictly stated that girls must wear skirts and not trousers the uniform policy also stated that boys wear trousers it mentioned nothing about not wearing skirts so i decided to ask all boys in our year group to come to school wearing skirts until the school allowed girls to wear trousers. In all, 40 boys took part. We were all in lunchtime and after school detention for two weeks. We didn't back down and eventually the school crumbled and girls were allowed to wear trousers.

Shame. I quite enjoyed wearing a skirt. Very freeing. My parents supported me throughout the protest. They too saw it as an injustice and were proud of my actions. Ryan and Paul, that's called being an ally. Fully approve of that. 84844 is the text number. Keep your thoughts coming in. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Now, Scenes from Lost Mothers is a new play from Clean Break and the University of Hertfordshire that brings to life the real life experiences of women navigating pregnancy and separation from their babies while in prison. The play, which is touring universities and prisons, is performed by actors with lived experience of the criminal justice system or those at risk of entering it.

It's based on findings from the Lost Mothers Project, which conducted the research. And in a moment, I'll be talking to the lead on the project, Dr Laura Abbott, who's a midwife and associate professor in research at the University of Hertfordshire. But first, I spoke to Anna, not her real name, who was six months pregnant when she was placed on remand in a women's prison a few years ago.

She told me what it was like being pregnant in prison. It was like one midwife for the whole prison, that she struggled to see everyone, had reduced foetal movements, couldn't be taken to hospital to be checked, had to wait till the next day because they had no prison officers to escort me. I didn't really eat for the last three months of my pregnancy because the food used to physically make me feel sick. So I lived off cereal packs and long life milk.

And I just kind of kept myself to myself because I know I was in quite a volatile and vulnerable situation. Everybody's emotions run high. Everybody's missing home or got personal issues going on on the outside. No one wants to be in there. So it can become very volatile very quickly and it can become an unsafe place. So I just kind of kept my head down, got through my time to obviously have my son. And then I was taken to hospital to deliver him. And what happened when you actually went into labour and gave birth?

I started early hours of the morning. I think I first pressed the cell bell about 5.30, said, you know, I've got really bad pains in my back, I think I might be going into labour. I was told, all right all right hang tight someone will be with you soon no one came half an hour later I pressed it again said the same thing call someone to be with you soon same thing no one came so between the hours of 5 30 to 7 30 I pressed it four times by the time someone did come at 7 30 to unlock the door which was the normal unlock

from whole landing, I was then, like, visibly in a lot of pain. My labour had obviously progressed. I'd been in labour a couple of hours. When I had said to the officer, you know, I'm pretty sure I'm in labour, by that time I was quite crying and distressed. She, um, she looked very shocked,

like it hadn't even been handed over to her. So then I was taken out of the cell, put in a communal area, had to wait for a prison nurse to come and confirm that I was in labour so they could get the ball rolling to get me out she didn't come but I think it was about an hour two hours she confirmed yeah she needs to go out to the hospital obviously all this time my labour's still progressing but that's when I started to get really anxious and worried thinking they're not going to get me to the hospital and I'm going to end up delivering this baby off the landing. And the ambulance came.

The ambulance was sat outside the prison for 45 minutes to an hour because there had to be security glids coming. Then I was put in the ambulance to be escorted. I had been told previously by a governor that I wouldn't be cuffed whilst I was in labour. Were you? Yeah, when I questioned the officer that put me on the cuffs and I said I was told by a governor that I wouldn't be cuffed during labour,

she said to be grateful because she'd put me on the long cuffs and not the short cuffs, so there was a chain between the two cuffs. So that kind of set the tone for how I knew that they were going to be and they were quite standoffish and awkward got to the hospital had asked for my mum and my son's dad to be contacted because they had previously been security cleared to attend the birth yeah and the officers just kept saying yeah we'll do it soon we'll do it soon just kind of brushing it off and the doctor actually made the call and said I'm going to contact her family because if I need to come here she clearly needs support yeah um and yeah luckily my mum and my son's dad did get there

on time to see him arrive did you have to give birth in handcuffs no they the doctor had asked the officer to uncuff me so where did you and your son stay immediately after you gave birth what happened so after giving birth I was escorted from that hospital to a new prison which that prison then held a mother and baby unit and that's I'd already set the board for that in the previous prison and been accepted and that's where we stayed for a little while um how was that yeah that that that part of the journey was probably the hardest for me my mental health just took an absolute dive I was an absolute mess I couldn't even pick up the phone and make a phone call to my mum or a family member because I'd moved prisons I didn't have no phone contact

because my numbers hadn't come over with me on my pin so I had to wait for all that to be done as well but then when my phone numbers did come on I made the call to solicitor and I said I need to I need to get bail um I can't stay here um but I was having suicidal thoughts and everything I just wanted to leave. I'm trying to imagine having a newborn baby and being put in a prison cell with no support it sounds very lonely. You were granted bail whilst you were on remand so how old was your son when you were sentenced and what happened then? So I was granted bail I went home for a couple of months by the time my son was only a couple

weeks old got sentenced I went back to jail because I had come out on bail I'd given up my place on the mother and baby unit so I knew I had to start the whole process again and by that time I kind of knew a bit more how things were so I knew that I could keep him until he was 18 months old from the time I got sentenced and I went back into that prison I was asking everybody I probably drove them absolutely crazy because everybody I saw I need to apply for the mother and baby unit I need to apply for the mother and baby unit how long were you separated for in total just over five weeks and how was that how were those five weeks they were the worst five weeks of my life they were just it was just horrible so I was

lucky enough that I had my mum on the outside and she could take care of him. But she would bring him to visit and the first couple of times she took him, brought him to visit, I just had to stop the visits because it was tearing my heart apart. And I was like, I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know the outcome. I didn't know if he would be visiting me

for the rest of my sentence or I was going to be able to have him with me. So I asked my mum not to bring him because he was getting upset, I was getting upset and I just didn't feel like it was doing anybody any good. What was it like, because eventually you were reunited, so then what was life like with your son in prison and the mother and baby unit?

Yeah, luckily I got accepted and I got the place back on the same mother and baby unit. And then he come back in and then he stayed with me until the end of the sentence. And when I was put on electronic curfew and allowed home, I struggled with it a lot because it's such a hard decision to make. Because, you know, you want your child with you And the best place for a child is with their mother. But then you know that you're taking them into this situation that they shouldn't be in because they're innocent. It's a very hard thing. And it's something, it's a decision that I will probably feel guilty about for the rest of my life. Do you feel like you've kind of taken that first part of your childhood and you can't get that back?

I'm not saying nobody should be punished for their crime. I'm very heavy on being punished. I did wrong and I should have been held accountable for it and I was, but I just wish that someone would have looked at a community alternative so that we would have not been in that position. You did leave prison. You've had another child. How does having a baby outside of prison compare to your first experience? The differences are amazing.

Like, with my first son, I dreaded giving birth to him. I didn't want him to come into this world. I just wanted to keep him inside and protect him. And, you know, the frustration with the care that I received and the worry and the anxiousness that I had through the end of that pregnancy just doesn't even compare to me now having my other son on the outside. And, you know, if there's a worry, I took myself to the midwife. If there's a concern, I take myself to the hospital. I was excited to have my second son. And I brought him home. And, you know, it was just, it was lovely. And it really showed me the massive gap that there is. That was Anna describing her experience of having a baby in prison. I'm now joined by Dr

Laura Abbott who leads the Lost Mother Project. Anna welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello thank you. Laura rather sorry what did you make of what Anna had to say? I think you know Anna was very brave to share her story and the stress and distress that she described is a feeling that women have told us during the Lost Mothers Project. The Lost Mothers Project is looking specifically at women who've been separated from their babies in prison. And what we found is women often suppress their feelings and their emotions quite a lot, simply because you're in prison, it's not a place where you really want to share and show your emotions. So what Anna was describing there um you know very openly was was what many women talked to us about on the Lost Mothers Project. I think a lot of

people might be struck by the um being put in handcuffs being taken to give birth in handcuffs is that normal? Um it should not happen women women should not be taken to hospital in handcuffs especially not in labor when i've done research in in the past with women in prison who are pregnant that one of the things that they talked a lot about was the shame that they felt from from coming from prison to hospital and back again and whether or not they're in handcuffs often the fact that they're they may be with prison officers, it feels very much like the public are looking at them and remembering that the majority of the women that are in prison at this moment are there for fairly minor crimes, non-violent crimes. Many are there on remand.

But what women would tell us is that they would feel very much like the public's eyes were on them as if they'd done something incredibly terrible so very stressful. So from your research Laura what what are the challenges are faced by pregnant women in prison? I think that there are many challenges um we know that uh we know that all all pregnancies in prison are deemed as high risk we know that the prison service itself the health service say that all pregnancies in prison are high risk so in in that sense we know that in 2023 there were 229 pregnant women in our prisons before 2021 we didn't collect the numbers at all well i read this in your report and i couldn't well i say i couldn't believe it and then i remembered well well maybe i can believe it 2021

there was no prior to that there to that, there was no record. There was no record at all. Of women being pregnant in prison in the UK? Nothing standard taken. There was no record of the numbers of pregnant women. And, you know, the prison service now do collect those numbers of pregnant women in prison. And we know that there were 53 births in the year 2023.

But what we don't know still is how many women are separated from their babies and we don't know how many women are there with babies under the age of two and that's something we urgently do need to know as well. Why? What would that research help with? We know that the first 1001 days are very critical from conception to the age of two for both mother and baby. And we need to make sure that we can provide the best care for those women and their babies and really understand their needs. And if we don't know that they're there, how can we provide that care? And as part of the project, you actually spoke to women across different prisons

who had been separated from their babies. What did you find? What did they tell you? We spoke to 29 women across five different prisons who had been separated from their babies what did you find what did they tell you um we spoke to 29 women across five different prisons who had been separated and the the majority of women talked to us about the overwhelming pain it was a physical pain it was a visceral pain it was very raw women talked about feeling that their heart had been ripped from their bodies and this was a word the word ripped was used a lot so it was quite a violent description of how they felt um they felt a lot of um suppression of emotions as well they didn't want to necessarily share and show how terrible they were feeling

because they were worried that that might put them under sort of extra sort of observance um but we also found that these women so they feel they can't even express how they're feeling at all very much very much so um and you know often sort of the mass would come down when they came to talk to to us because there was someone from outside and and i think you know when you're in prison there there there are places and i know i heard your program earlier in the week and there are places that can be feel pretty brutal and it's not somewhere that you necessarily want to show all your emotion so those women are particularly vulnerable we know um that that women after birth are vulnerable anyway but especially if you've experienced a separation

it's an incredibly risky time mentally for women well you mentioned the program that we had it was actually wednesday's program because we heard how not enough is being done to help women cope in prisons and for some of the lack of care to meet their basic needs and the amount of distress that's caused and the figures of self-harming in women's prisons. It was quite a damning report from the from HM Inspectorate of Prisons and we also know that over 80% of female prisoners have some sort of mental health issue. Anna who I spoke to talked about her mental health getting worse. How common is that experience? It's incredibly common. We know from reports into confidential inquiries into maternal deaths that in in that postnatal period who have social service

involvement are far more risk of self-harm and suicide and and those women in prison are at an even higher risk because of the where they are and and perhaps that the feelings of isolation being away from their support networks and family systems and and back to um the research that you've done and speaking to all those women who had their babies taken away, what do you think about this? Do you find from your research that babies are taken away unnecessarily from their mothers? I think there's inconsistency. So what we found with some women, I remember one particular woman talking about how she had done absolutely everything. She had come off

drugs. She'd been a substance misuser. She'd come off drugs. She really wanted to be given an opportunity, a chance to be a mum. So she did everything she was told to do. She was told that she could have an opportunity to have her baby. And then two days after giving birth, she was breastfeeding in hospital and she was told that her baby was being removed. And I remember that woman particularly because she really wanted to talk about her experience, but she talked how it absolutely, utterly broke her. And she just cycled back into that sort of spiral of drug misuse again to sort of numb that pain.

And of course, we must say that there are incidences and cases where babies do need to be removed from their babies. Can you tell us a bit about the decision making about how this happens? Because you actually sat on the women and baby decision boards yourself, haven't you? Yes. And there's been recent changes as well. So that are going on with mother and baby boards, which is all quite current. But we were able to sit in and to observe the decision making and again it's remembering that the staff that are involved it's incredibly difficult for staff

as well we were able to talk to prison officers and midwives and social workers about their experiences but something that we we did find that sometimes because prisons that we've only got 12 prisons in the country and they're geographically quite spaced out. So sometimes social workers wouldn't necessarily get an opportunity to visit that prison to see the environment. So a decision might be made without a fully informed decision in that respect. So there was inconsistency. And I know the changes that are coming might help that consistency across the board. Yeah, we had the Lord Chancellor, Shabana Mahmood, on the programme as well.

And she said she agrees that prison isn't working for women. She wants fewer women going to prison. And she set up the Women's Justice Board to look at the issue. What changes would you like to see made? We know that there are 11 countries around the world that don't lock up their pregnant women. I think in the majority of cases, we can have pregnant women in the community looked after, supported in much better environments than prison. We know that many women are actually on remand, maybe pregnant as well. And there needs to be much more creative ways of supporting

those women. We know that it's an incredibly risky place to be pregnant. We don't want to have any more tragedies. There have been tragedies and we don't want to see any more of that. So I would say it needs to be done fairly urgently. We need to look at pregnant women and new mums and where we can have an alternative. And in the meantime, we started by mentioning the play and it's going to be touring universities and prisons. You had a launch of the play, was it last night? It was last night. How did that go and what do you hope the outcome of this touring play will be?

Well, the play written by Caprite Corbatti and... We're fans of Caprite. Yeah, she's amazing. And she's basically done an incredible job of translating the research and also our incredible Lost Mothers Lift Experience team, the charity Birth Companions. We've all been working together with Gapreet. And Clean Break have done an incredible job.

So the three actors last night were absolutely phenomenal. And so the launch went really well. It was very well attended at the university of Hertfordshire um and lots of discussion and very emotional actually um you know there was lots of feedback from the audience that was very emotional um it really does translate our research into something that is very accessible and you know making stories accessible through art is brilliant. But what's the outcome going to be? What do you hope?

We want as many people as possible to see scenes from Lost Mothers. So that is those politicians, but also the public, because we need to have sort of a more humane approach and a compassionate approach to this group of women. And it really does tell a story. So that's what we want. We want as many people to see it and change it. Dr. Laura Abbott, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.

And if you've been affected by anything you've heard in today's programme, please go to the BBC's Action Line website where you can find links to organisations offering support. 84844. Now, life is a cabaret, old chum. Come to the cabaret. The iconic line sung by the one and only Sally Bowles in Cabaret the Musical, most famously by Liza Minnelli, of course. Well, my next guest is the latest West End star to bring the beloved character

to life. And boy, does she do it well. Marisha Wallace, best known for her olivier nominated performance as miss adelaide in guys and dolls is now starring in cabaret at london's kit kat kit kat club alongside billy porter playing the mc and marisha is going to be singing for us shortly but she's right here in front of me i feel like i want to stand up mar, and continue the standing ovation I gave you on Tuesday night. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

It's such a pleasure. This is iconic, this program. Well, it is now, now that you're here. You've been playing Sally Bowles for a couple of weeks. How's it going? It's the most incredible thing because it's been almost a year in the making of me getting to do it. So to finally be just in it has been such an incredible experience and it feels very special and magical and doing it with Billy Porter and the whole cast is absolutely incredible. Daniel

and Viv and everyone, Fenton, like it's just a dynamite cast all around. So I feel very supported and very in my element. I feel very like an artist right now. Yeah, it is artistry. It really is. You are remarkable and the cast is incredible. How much, how desperately or how much did you want to play Sally Bowles? I didn't you know the crazy part was a lot of times as a woman of color a lot of things are barred from you or like not even on your radar because you've never been allowed to do certain things and I think after I played Ado Annie and I played Adelaide roles that had not been played by black women before I was like there must be other ones that might want a little Marisha Wallace treatment and that

I would like to get my hands on to like find some nuance and find something different in them because when you do cast someone that's not typically cast, it's like seeing a picture with a different filter. The colors are brighter or the green is greener or the red is redder or something stands out in a different way. And so when I saw that this role has never had that chance, I wanted to do it. So I'm going to, so Billy Porter was onham norton talking about his side of the story where you picked up the phone and he said you know in your vivacious brilliant way you were like sally bowls i want to play her were we there is what you asked yeah um so what research did you go off and do so i as a as a black person i didn't even know black history in nazi germany i didn't

even know so i was like well if i don't, then why would anyone else know? Because it was there, but it's just not taught. So I learned about so many things. Well, first off, I learned there were over 24,000 cities in the world at this time. A lot of black Americans, especially performers, were coming from America to escape the racism to go to Europe to be stars. Like Josephine Baker, who went to France and became a star. And she also actually went to the MoMA at the same time. And all her tour posters were in the MoMA. And it said London, New York, Berlin. So she was there as well. So we were there. And also at that time, talent trumped race. So like if you were very talented, they didn't care what color you were. They wanted the talent. So a lot of black actors, actors of color went to Berlin to have a life and in something similar to a cabaret.

So I was like, that's our reference point. That's our way into the story. So you got the parts. You've done your research. You have a justification. You're like, yeah, you need it. I think Sally Balls could have just been played anyway. But you've gone in deep to find out actually to give yourself some reason and put yourself in that space. And then you also got Billy Porter the job.

Yes, I called because when I got the job, they said, we need someone to match what you're doing. And I was like, I got the perfect person, Billy Porter. And I had no idea his history with the show, how he wanted to play the MC all those years ago. In the 90s. It was never allowed. Yeah. In the 90s. They wouldn never allowed. Yeah. In the 90s. They wouldn't even give him an audition. Wow. And he sent them the same book that I use as research. He sent to them and said, we were here.

We've always been here. And it was destined to witness by Hans-Jay Massaquai, which you should read. It's black history. Growing up black in Nazi Germany. Yeah. We like a book recommendation. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. And what was book recommendation. Yeah. Thank you.

Yeah. And what was it like when the two of you got on stage? It was like, well, also, I looked up to Billy Porter in my, you know, growing up because he was one of the black legends of theater. So to work with him was just like, wow. And it's not just the two of you, because Billy actually says that this is the first time in the 60 year history that three black people, that's you, Billy, and Daniel Bauerbank, who plays Cliff, are the lead roles in this musical in a commercial production. Yeah. That's power. You did that.

Yeah. And I think it's about just not limiting yourself, not ever thinking, oh, that's not for me. It's everyone's history. And I think that's what's important because it can happen again. And it's happening now. So it was incredibly powerful to watch it on so many different levels, the talent and the singing and you're going to sing and it's very exciting. But the play is set in Berlin in the 1920s and 30s as the Nazi regime gains more power. So how do you relate to the themes of that play? And for me, having a black cast actually did put a completely different spin on it. Yeah, well, this is the first time I've ever felt like if Sally doesn't leave, she will die.

Or if she doesn't go, she has nowhere to go. So I think also with what's happening in the world, the rise of fascism today, and we're kind of living in a parallel universe of like, what do you do when someone is coming into power that's going to change the world and it's not for the good? Do we continue on with our lives as if it's normal? Or do we fight? Or do we run? Or do we like this is kind of that's what we're dealing with today. And so to be living that and showing that on stage every night, it puts a mirror up to the world to say, what are you going to do? What's your choice? How are you going to deal with the rise of this craziness is happening in the world what would you have done so now we're facing that and also when you have the layer of blackness and

queerness and all the other layers on top of that how does that affect because I feel like Sally would rather die as a star in the cabaret than to die as a maid in America or go back to a life where she's not in control of her own destiny yeah that's what the difference isn't it because Cliff then says to her come on I'm going to take you home yeah America and you think okay so but what life is that for me exactly at that time at least here I have some kind of freedom and agency over my life well can we talk about your life here yeah because you have actually done something quite right well I don't know, maybe it's not radical. Well, I should say welcome, because you are now a fellow British citizen. You've chosen to make Britain your home. Why not just work here? You had indefinite, you could work here, you could live here forever and do whatever. Why did you

want to become British? Well, I feel like you guys adopted me. We have. And it was at a time, I lived in New York for years and I had, I was on Broadway and then I came here and I finally became the artist that I wanted to be and the person that I wanted to be. I discovered myself here. And also I was allowed to be whoever I wanted to be. I didn't have to conform. I didn't have to change who I was. Like I could, I felt here I could create things. I wasn't competing. And it was just made me want to just really embed myself. To actually renege being an American. I mean, I get to be a dual citizen. Oh, dual citizen. So I'm a dual citizen. But I feel like I graduated after like, because it's taken eight years to get to this

point with all the visas and everything and the studying and the studying i had to take the life of the uk test that i don't think any brit could actually pass no idea you've got all the facts and the figures at your fingertips also i just sang the british national anthem for the king of england how was that that was crazy because no one does pomp and circumstance like the Brits anyway but I was standing there with all you know the the horns and the trumpeters next to me and they're like all rise for the king of England and the trumpets go and I was like oh my god you've done it I come out from a hog farm in North Carolina. Yes so right so tell me so when you think about

that, when you think about how far you've come, what goes through your mind? It's just incredible because I just say yes. And I've just said yes a lot. And then that's gotten me to where I am. But it also shows me that like hard work really does pay off because sometimes people think you you know it's luck or if it's you know this but it's really hard work and like believing in yourself I already believed that I was going to get here before I was anywhere close to it and I and then when it started to happen it actually scared me because I'm a manifester I don't know if people are into that but I write down anything that I want to happen and i'm telling you all the things i've written down have happened but yeah here's my thought on that i agree i think luck favors the brave that's

what i always say but when you manifest you write it down but then you do the work yes oh you can't well faith without works is dead yeah so you have to have the faith but then they also have to do work and the work has paid off. Yeah. And it is magnificent. Brilliant, Emily. Marisha, will you sing for us? I will. I'm having a little concert at the Adelphi March 11th,

and I'm going to be doing this song there as well. So go see that. Go see Cabaret. And we'll sing it for you now. Please. A little test. Absolutely. Would you like to go and take your stand at the mic,

take your place at the microphone? This is very exciting. Marisha Wallace is going to be singing for us maybe this time live and on piano is Ben Van Tienen. Incredible. Marisha Wallace, thank you so much.

Singing maybe this time from Cabaret and on piano, Ben Vantin. And thank you, Ben. And Cabaret at the Kit Kat Club is currently booking until Saturday, the 4th of October 2025, with Marisha's final performance on Saturday, the 24th of May. And she is extraordinary with the entire cast. That's all from me. Thank you for joining me.

Do join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Alex Kretosky. And I'm Kevin Fong. How do you feel about AI? Does it scare you? Very quickly, that question comes up. You know, is it going to think for us? Does it excite you? I say, how is the AI going to help us to think better? Do you worry about how it'll change your life, your job, your kids? AI is built into many of the software applications that we now use in schools every day. In every episode of The Artificial Human from BBC Radio 4, Kevin and I are here to help. We will chart a course through the world of AI and we will answer your questions.

It doesn't just lie, but it lies in an incredibly enthusiastic, convincing way. That ability to be able to kind of think critically, it's just going to be so important as we move forward. The Artificial Human with me, Alex Kratosky. And me, Kevin Fong. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.