Woman's Hour - Martine McCutcheon, anxiety & the perimenopause, Who is Fani Willis? Period huts in Nepal

Episode Date: August 16, 2023

Martine McCutcheon describes her rising anxiety levels to do with the perimenopause. Who is Fani Willis? On Monday 14 August a grand jury in Fulton County, Georgia voted to charge Mr Trump and 18 others with attempting to overturn the 2020 election result in the state. The woman taking on his case is District Attorney Fani Willis. Kimberley Peeler Allen the co-founder of HHFA, a national organization building the political power and leadership of Black women from the voting booth to elected office, joins Nuala. Should parents of disabled children and those with long term health conditions be kept in the loop, even when the young person turns 18 and is an adult? We hear from parents devastated to be excluded, who say they are not listened to, sometimes until it’s too late. And the Royal College of Psychiatrists tells Woman’s Hour they want to see the period of transition to be extended past 18 and up to the age of 25. In Nepal there have been reports of a 16-year old girl who has died as a result of the illegal practice of chhaupadi. This is where menstruating women are forced to stay in huts outside their home due to the centuries-old belief that they are unclean and untouchable during menstruation. Journalist Shristi Kafle joins us from Nepal.  The Invincibles is the untold story of one of the most successful women’s football team of World War One. And as the spirit of the Sterling Ladies lives on in the Lionesses epic Women’s World Cup adventure this summer a play about them opens at the Queens Theatre in Hornchurch Essex early next month. Playwright Amanda Whittington and actor Yanexi Enriquez join Nuala. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lucinda Montefiore00:00 Opener 02:10 Martine Mccutcheon 13:53 Fani Willis 26:24 Post - 18 40:03 Period Huts 46:40 The Invincibles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. No doubt many of you are gearing up to watch the Lionesses against the Matildas as England take on Australia. It should be a corker. Well, today we're going to revisit the successes of the Dagenham Invincibles. That's a women's football team from World War One. And a new play celebrates that time while it also follows the Lionesses World Cup. But how will their winning streak end?

We'll have a chat about that. Also, Donald Trump's name is back in the headlines. That's due to the latest indictment in the state of Georgia. Another name mentioned in all the news stories is that of Fulton County District Attorney Fanny Willis, who brought the case. We're going to hear more about who she is and what she is planning to do. And you may remember two interviews that I did recently. They were with mothers whose children had taken their own lives. I found them very moving, I have to say. Phoebe was at university.

Olivia, whom we spoke about, was at Sandhurst. And in both cases, their parents felt they were not informed that their children were struggling. Both children were over 18, so adults in the eyes of the law. But a leading medical college has told Woman's Hour that it wants to see greater flexibility and a shift away from age-based transition

for children using mental health services. I'd really like to hear from you. Do you think there should be more flexibility when it comes to parents' involvement in their children's well-being after they become an adult at 18?

We want to hear your stories, whether your children have had long-term physical or mental health difficulties, or perhaps an unexpected episode, where you kept in the loop. You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Text charged at your standard message rate.

On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website, or you can send a WhatsApp message or a voice note. That number is 03700 100 444. But we begin with the actor Martine McCutcheon. Good morning, Martine. Good morning. How are you? Very well. I'm just wondering, are you a football fan? I am. I am a football fan. I'm a Chelsea fan.

And much of the annoyance of my family, because I was raised in East North London, so they're all Arsenal fans. But wrongly, because I was the girl in the family, I was never invited to go and watch the football matches live. Thank God things have changed. And we've also got amazing female players now. And I met Ken Bates in the lift in Fulham because I lived within the grounds of Chelsea.

And he invited me to my first game and said, tell you what, I'll lay it all on for you. And if you enjoy the game, I just ask that you're a Chelsea fan. I said done. And I fell in love with the game. I absolutely loved it. How wonderful. Well, as I was mentioning, lots of us are going to be, you know, lining up, finding a television somewhere or a screen and watching the Lionesses. But I didn't get you on to speak about football, although I think we could speak at length about that. We could, we could. I have you on because you've been very open about suffering from CFS, chronic fatigue syndrome,

also known as ME. This is for over 10 years. More recently, you've also spoken about how your levels of anxiety related to ongoing health conditions and perimenopause have been so debilitating that you were feeling like you were losing your mind and ordinary things became very difficult. I was quite struck by the fact that it left you unable to drive, for example. Talk me through a little bit of what you went through. So basically, the reason why I'm talking about this is because I'm supporting Churchill's Keep Calm and Carry On Drive campaign, which aims to provide inspiration and advice to new drivers to sort of find their inner calm because we are now finding that there are over 130,000 drivers passing their tests over the age of 30 every year. And they're not as gung-ho,

they're not as confident driving for various reasons. For me, the first time that I was anxious was when I had my son. I just felt this huge responsibility suddenly and generally for life. I think a lot of new mums feel that, new parents feel that. And I kind of you know could watch the news I couldn't I just found I found it hard to leave the house I just felt really really daunted by everything and that was the first time that I'd majorly suffered with anxiety because as a performer um I could kind of just switch on into a certain gear and and there would be nerves but there wouldn't be that anxiety that real anxiety and then yes when um I became perimenopausal I didn't realize you know I'd seen all these tv shows and all this information on social media um telling us about you know the hot flushes and

low libido and all these different things. But nobody had in my mind from what I'd seen, discussed the mental side of things of how it can severely disable you mentally. And I just didn't want to answer my phone. I didn't want to answer the front door. I didn't want to go outside. And I would panic out of nowhere and just have to pull over when I was driving because I just felt this huge fear that I couldn't breathe. And it would just come on out of nowhere. And when I spoke to my specialist about it, she said that, you know, sadly, that is the case for many women. But it wasn't something I'd heard about as much.

And how did you overcome it if you did? Are you back behind the wheel? Are you feeling confident driving? Yeah, luckily, with the help of my specialist, who helps women that do have more mental effects than they do physical or both. She's helped me find the right dosage of HRT, estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, and it's taken a long time. It's taken a while. But, yeah, I am now confident.

You know, I always was a confident driver. I did the all-girl car rally around the world you know I'd driven everywhere this is this is fascinating Martin that that it could go from that to having that fear of getting behind the wheel it's incredible right it is incredible I actually genuinely felt like I was losing my mind. And when I mentioned it on an Instagram post, because I just didn't know if I really was or if it was something happening that was perimenopausal, I just didn't know. It was almost like a taboo part of something that every other factor was saturated, but that part didn't seem to be discussed. And the response was just huge.

The amount of women that, you know, felt guilty with how they treated their children, the loss of their temper, their confidence, their marriages falling apart, losing their jobs. It was huge. It was absolutely huge, the outpour response that I got and the support. People were so lovely and just said, you're not on your own, you know. So, yeah. I'm going to throw that to our listeners as well,4-4. I'd just be really curious about that. Driving or loss of confidence with driving with the perimenopause, menopause. We actually have a series of women on wheels at the moment that we're talking about that relationship of women with their cars on Women's Hour. So I'd be curious of this aspect of it as well. I'm really glad that you're feeling better, that you found the way forward for you to get back behind the wheel and have that confidence. But I do also want to speak about one

other health issue that you had. We mentioned there at the top, chronic fatigue syndrome or ME and the impact it's had on your life also with fibromyalgia. What I was wondering, was it difficult to be able to extricate what was perimenopausal and what was chronic fatigue syndrome for you? Because I know so many people that go through perimenopause, they may not have CFS, but they may be going through a really challenging time in their life. There was obviously the pandemic. You know, there's so many other factors that can also create similar outcomes. Yeah, I think what's really difficult with these, I mean, I've had it for over 20 years, CFS, but I think it's still fairly new in the medical world and people are still constantly finding out new things about it. You have to kind of be quite careful about what you say, because people are very sure that their answer is right. And it can cause this conflict. For me, personally, I believe that it's something that affects the brain and the nervous system. And it's something

that I'm working on. And I believe that it's very misunderstood and I think it's something though that is luckily you're able to diagnose it more easily now by talking to your doctor and telling them your symptoms. People are believing you more now which is amazing and not just dishing out antidepressants. They are starting to realize that this is something that is real, that is happening to people that are go-getters in life, you know, probably pushed beyond their limits rather than be, you know, lazy in any way. So it's something that I am really passionate about raising awareness for because it is invisible. It is something that people think can be selective.

It is a beast of an illness. It can absolutely destroy your life. But I am proof that you can still carry on. You can still have a career. You can still carry on, you can still have a career, you can still work. You just have to find your boundaries. And I've done, you know, a lot, because I've had to be still and not be like a prisoner of my body so much, but I've had to be still and be my best friend or my worst enemy at times. I've just learned so much about myself that in some ways I feel um it's taught me an awful lot you know is it about good is it always about

managing your energy levels Martine or I mean yeah I think it's about how you react to things how you come at life why you're coming at it. Are you coming at it for authentic reasons? Are you coming at it feeling good enough about yourself? Are you keeping within your limits? I think in a world, especially where, you know, you look and everybody seems to be doing everything faster than you, quicker than you, better than you, more glamorously than you, with more money than you. You know, it's just this wheel that, you know, is just so unhealthy. And it's not a great comparison when you see on social media the way that life is.

I'm sure you've covered this many times on the show. I listen to the show. And I think that more than ever, people just need to slow down, smell the roses and do things from the right place. I know that I was coming at everything because of stuff that happened earlier on in my life, not feeling good enough, wanting validation, pushing beyond my limits because I want to please everybody. And now I do it because I want to do it. I love what I do. I do it on my own terms, my own way. And if that doesn't work for people, that's okay, I don't do it. But that comes with wisdom, with age, with an illness like this. And unless you go through something yourself, you know what it's

like. People don't truly fully understand it. I think a lot of our listeners, your words will resonate with them. 84844. I do have Sally who's got in touch saying just how brilliant to hear Martine talking about mental health with menopause. I felt exactly the same and lost friends, says Sally over it. Just before I let you go, though, I did see over the past week that the government has announced they're aiming to improve awareness and understanding of the services that are available to people with ME, CFS, who need additional support, including carers. So maybe it's changing after those 20 years, Martine. I really hope so. I mean, that's really fantastic news. I didn't know that, especially, you know, the carers, because it affects not just the people with the illness themselves, but the whole family. So that is really Martine McCutcheon, speaking to us about perimenopause

but also me. Thanks very much to her, 84844 if you'd like to get in touch on any of the points that Martine was raising. Right, to my next guest. Who is Fanny Willis? That was the name on everyone's lips

when on Monday a grand jury in Fulton County, Georgia, voted to charge Mr. Trump and 18 others with attempting to overturn the 2020 election result in the state. The former president is facing 13 new charges, which include racketeering and election meddling. This is his fourth indictment this year. Mr. Trump's lawyers called the indictment shocking and absurd, while the former president derided it as the latest development in what he has branded a political witch hunt. The woman taking on the case is Fulton County District Attorney Fanny Willis. She's the first woman to hold that position.

To tell us more about Fanny Willis and her involvement in the investigation against Mr Trump is Kimberly Peeler-Allen, co-founder of the Higher Heights for America, a national organization building political power and leadership of black women from the voting booth to elected office. Good to have you with us, Kimberly. Good morning. Good morning. And earlier, of course, for you, well, what does this role comprise of, Fulton County District Attorney? Just for some of our listeners that mightn't be familiar with it. So for your listeners who may have watched the American television show Law & Order, she is the

attorney that represents the people of Fulton County, the government of Fulton County, and in this case, the people of the state of Georgia. So her charge is to defend and support the people of Fulton County, Georgia, against any wrongdoings. So whether that is people who have committed crimes, murders, or robberies in the district or cases like this, where she feels that the people of Fulton County have been wronged by someone and she is the one to prosecute and defend their honor. And why particularly Fulton County and Georgia? So Fulton County covers Atlanta, which is the county seat of Fulton County and also Secretary of State of Georgia asking that he find a certain number of votes to show that he had allegedly won that state in the presidential election, in the 2020 election. All of that happened. The office, the physical office where the secretary of state was happened in Fulton County. So that, you know, very interestingly, Fannie Willis was elected in 2020. In that actual election, she was sworn in in early January, right as all of this was happening. And it came to her and she decided to move forward

in February, probably less than six weeks since she had been in office to really take on this basic attack on the voters of Georgia. And I mentioned, of course, Mr. Trump denies any wrongdoing. He calls his call to the Secretary of State a perfect phone call. They are Mr. Trump's words. But with Fanny Willis, I mean, I feel there are so many firsts. Tell me a little bit about her upbringing. I've seen many headlines that talk about her father being a Black Panther, so part of a radical political party that championed Black rights

really in the 70s? Absolutely. So she was originally born in California, which is the birthplace of the Black Panther Party. And her father was a public defender. The family moved to Washington, D.C. when she was a child, and she saw her father at work, and that really inspired her to go into law. She graduated her undergraduate from Howard University in Washington, D.C., and then moved to Atlanta to Emory University Law School, where she got her law degree. After she graduated from law school, she served in private practice for a few years and then joined the district attorney's office in 2001, where she really made a name for herself, really being very meticulous, putting together very complicated cases, running the gamut from murders to racketeering and other cases and rose up in the ranks and decided to run in 2000, taking out her former boss and longtime incumbent. And then the rest is history. And history continues to be made. And you mentioned racketeering there.

We'll also hear about the RICO laws, that's Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organisations. These are laws that I would think as a lay person would generally refer to criminal gangs, to maybe a mafia organisation for something like that. But Fanny Willis continues to use these in many of the cases. She used it in a controversial

Atlanta public school scandal. She's used it for Young Thug. That case continues to go on. And now with the case of Donald Trump. So would it be fair to say almost treating the people that are named like a criminal gang and Mr. Trump as the ringleader? Yes, yes. I think that is definitely her intent. I am not an attorney, but from what my understanding of this case is, she has brought it. And the Georgia RICO statute, which is actually more broad than the federal statute that many people are aware of that has been brought against organized crime across the country, it definitely defines things more broadly and shows that, you know, particularly the figurehead does not have to be directly involved in any criminal acts. It just has to show that there was intent, there was an understanding by those who are,

you know, beneath them to carry out a particular act for a desired outcome. And it also really carries much stronger punishments than the federal statute. If all of this goes in Fannie Willis's direction, she could be seeking up to 20 years in prison for those convicted. But this approach, which she has used with Young Thug that has been dragging on, I think, for 15 months without a single juror seated, they're very complicated because so many people have to be seen by so many attorneys. There was one defense attorney, Meg Strickler, who said, given how lengthy and complicated RICO trials are,

the Trump trial could prove a confusing and uncomfortable affair for a jury if one can eventually be seated. I mean, she was saying jurors are going to fall asleep long before they understand it. I mean, that must be a concern. Yeah, it is a concern. And the fact that there are 18 defendants is also a concern. It is a complex plan. It is a complex set of defendants, and it will take a while. the fourth indictment against the former president in just about four weeks, it feels like. Should all of these cases go on past the November election in 2024? And should the former president be elected president again? The theory is that he could take the Jack Smith federal indictment and federal case and nullify that because he will then be in charge of the Justice Department. the states and the federal government, there is nothing that the former president could do, even as sitting president, to stop the Georgia case from moving forward. So it is complicated. It is very, it will be very long. There are a lot of people involved, but, you know, some say that should he be elected again, it will stand to move forward just because of the separation between the state and the federal government.

Very briefly, Kimberly, she is a black woman. And we know that there has been so much pushback from loyal Trump supporters, some, I believe, also with threatening messages. What have you heard or seen about that? Oh, it has been actually from the moment that she filed the paper, actually from the moment she won office to when she filed the paperwork and the case moved forward. There have been threats of violence and harassment against her. Sure. Take a moment. Take a drop of water. No problem. I know that feeling.

Sorry. And it has just increased and we have seen just the tenor of conversation, both in person and online, has really reached a fever pitch. Her office has said that they have increased security within the office for some of tracked by the FBI who had had issued some some threats against D.A. Willis, as well as New York Attorney General Letitia James, who is also bringing a civil case against the former president, as well as the U.S. Attorney General Merrick Garland. And they tracked him to Colorado and through an altercation, he was shot and killed. They haven't released a whole lot of details about that case, but it was the threats that he was espousing against these individuals, including D.A. Willis, were of the magnitude that the FBI became involved. So that is just one aspect or one example of the threats and harassment that she has

undergone and she and her staff. So it is when you are stepping into a position of power as a black woman, which is the antithesis of what leadership and power has looked like in the 250 years of this country, there will be pushback and that pushback has become extremely toxic and dangerous. And I should also mention for our listeners, Letitia James in New York, also a black woman. Kimberly Peeler-Allen, thank you so much for joining us. We'll continue following this story. It's not going away.

Thanks so much for all your messages that are coming in. A lot of you listening to Martine, some getting in touch about driving. For example, I can totally relate to Martine. I can no longer get to take my family on holiday to where I really want to go because I can no longer drive on motorways. I have to take an alternative route that can take over double or more time, which just wears me out further. Another from Phoebe, I've had chronic fatigue syndrome since I was 15. I had to drop out of school

because of the sheer exhaustion. I'm 19 now and after four years of trying and resting, I've managed to get my energy levels up enough to want to get out of the house. So I've started learning

how to drive. Only nearly crashed once. Keep going, Phoebe. So interesting. Both of the stories intersecting there. Keep them coming. 8484.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. A lot of you have got in touch on our next story. We're asking, should parents be involved in their children's health and care support for their ill and disabled children, even when the young person is over 18? Well, a leading medical college has told Woman's Hour it wants to see greater flexibility and a shift away from age-based transition for children using mental health services.

Many families say when their child becomes an adult, it's like falling off a cliff, because after years of advocating on their youngsters' behalf, some are sidelined or even shut out altogether. Here on Woman's Hour, we've recently heard from two mothers who felt excluded and only found out that their children had been struggling so much after their daughters had taken their own lives. In January, I spoke to Hilary Grimes, whose daughter Phoebe killed herself at university. What was incredible, just before the inquest, we received via the coroner's office a 93-page mental health timeline

and a 75-page academic timeline, which had in detail all of Phoebe's communications with them. In the first term, I was already really worried about her. I rang the university, I gave them my number. They said that they would tell the ops team and that they would contact me, but they never phoned me so there were many occasions when you could think that they should have phoned me particularly 20 hours before Phoebe took her life and also in their notes they have which I had no idea that Phoebe had a suicide plan

she told the university that they knew that and I had no idea. Hilary Grime talking about her daughter Phoebe. And then in July, I spoke to Louise Townsend, whose daughter Olivia Perks took her own life while training at Sandhurst Military College. I'm completely devastated by that, finding out that she died and it was presented to me. Well, she'd had a little bit of a wobble at the Royal Engineers. And I asked the question at that point, well, why did no one contact me? And the answer was, she's an adult, so it was, you know, we couldn't do that. But I really feel that there could have been some way that someone could have contacted me or even made her contact me to say, look, there's an issue here. I need some help. I need some support. Louise Townsend speaking about her

late daughter, Olivia. Our reporter, Carolyn Atkinson, has been investigating. Welcome, Carolyn. Now, Hilary and Louise, who we heard from, were traumatised not only by the deaths, of course, but by not knowing what was going on. Tell us a little bit more about the issue. Well, it's a balancing act between the law, which says when people turn 18 and become an adult, they do have the right to make their own decisions. On the other hand, in some cases, disabled children or mentally ill teenagers or those with long-term health conditions have relied on parents as advocates and the carers want this to continue. And this period when children move from children's health services into adult services is called transition. Now, according to a recent survey by the charity WellChild, which represents some of the 100,000 seriously ill children in the UK,

nearly 70% of them said transition was poor. Some described it as being like a jungle others felt abandoned. And I've been talking to a father whose 19-year-old daughter Zoe took her own life in a mental health unit where she was sectioned at the time. Keith Watts says he and his family were sidelined once Zoe went into an adult unit. She was a very gifted athlete. You know, her future was so great because she was working towards the Olympics and then suddenly she just went down with OCD,

which developed into bulimia, which eventually developed into anorexia. So we were really scared as to what the future was for her. And so we were doing our very best to try and get her into the best possible unit so she could get treatment. So when it came to her 18th birthday, there is absolutely no leeway at all. She has to be moved out the day that she becomes 18. It was really, really inflexible. And on the morning of her 18th birthday,

she was put in an ambulance and just taken there. We had very little information around the process and what was happening. You know, they were devastating times for Zoe because prior to moving to the new centre, obviously she'd built up relationships with therapists where she was starting to show some improvements, you know, becoming slightly more stable. But of course, once they moved her to the new unit, those relationships dissolved. She just wanted to go home. and so she would be disruptive and then because the adult

services because they deal with a range of people from the age of 18 right the way upwards they're much bigger people if they need to restrain a patient then they will just dive on them which is what they did with Zoe and when they did it they damaged her her back they didn't tell us that they damaged her back Zoe phoned us in tears and in agony saying that I can't feel my legs she was so distressed it was heartbreaking and then eventually after three days of literally calling them almost every hour saying why are you not treating her properly they x-rayed her and they discovered they displaced one of the vertebrae in her back and it trapped the the main nerve going to her legs she had to have an immediate operation

where we were getting information from was when Zoe was ringing us on her mobile phone we believe she was more sick when she was went to the to the new unit and so therefore her being the only one that they consult in terms of the decisions as to what they're going to do for her and what sort of treatment she's going to get was absolutely absurd because we'd always done it as a family. I think the age thing should be completely irrelevant it should be what treatment does this person need and how can we help? Splitting patients because of their age is completely wrong, absolutely completely wrong. It doesn't help. In fact, it turns the clock back and makes them worse, much, much worse. And I think that's been proved. Keith Watts talking

about his daughter Zoe and he also said he wasn't told that she tried to kill herself at the unit and it was the hospital who called him. Now this sense of being sort of out of the loop is also one that many parents of children with learning disabilities or who are autistic say they also feel. There is something called deputieship which could be in position to support for example a child who doesn't have capacity to make certain decisions and parents can apply for this. But many say it's very complicated. It's a process that they're too busy to do when they're already caring 24-7. In practice, parents may find themselves missing from discussions

or perhaps not being able to stay with their child overnight in an adult ward, which can be very distressing for the child. Now, Dame Christine Lenahan is Director of the Council for Disabled Children, which is part of the National Children's Bureau, and she says it's a constant concern for parents she supports. I think for families of children who've got disabilities or children with mental health needs, they are so used to, from their child really being quite small or from the issue first being identified,

being the most powerful advocate in their child's life. But the change at 18 feels quite artificial because obviously for many of these children they are still going through their childhood in lots of ways and they're still on sometimes a delayed journey to independence if you're still learning basic skills you need support and I suppose what's interesting is in some instances with some professionals that seems to be understood with other professionals parents seem to go into a space that says that's it we won't talk to you and you know I don't want us to lose the rights of young people to determine their own future but it seems to me there's got to be a balance and a nuance in that that makes more sense. I think the different ages of transitioning services

don't help that so you know we have this odd space in health between young people being 16 and 18 and how they get their needs met and we've got other jumps in the system for social care and other things and really I suppose there is something about getting the flexibility in a professional system that listens to that and understands that and questions that when it needs questioning, but actually understands the expertise that many parents bring in terms of advocating for their child and young person. And we know some organisations also want transition to be better and for parents to be a key part of the process. In the NHS long-term plan back in 2019, it was suggested that the NHS should spread out transition, as it were, from 18 right up to 25. And now a leading medical college has told Woman's Hour that things must be done differently, not least because

there are so many regional variations with some services moving children into adult services from 16. Dr Trudy Seneviratni is a registrar of the Royal College of Psychiatrists. What the college would really like is a move away from this rigid age-based transition into, and we see that there is variation and we want much greater flexibility in that transition period and to reflect really the needs of the individual. But how would it help the parents who say they are just excluded? Whatever age transition happens at, they are excluded from the conversation the minute their child is deemed to be an adult, whether they like it or not, and indeed, whether the child likes it or not.

Yes, I mean, that's a really, really important point and a very tricky and difficult one. I mean, I'm a parent myself of young adults, and I know how difficult it can be. The issue on the one hand of the law and autonomy, which is that, you know, as somebody hits 18, there is law, there is autonomy. And that, you know, an individual is allowed to have their own care with the involvement of whoever they want to have involved. And if they say, no, actually, I don't want my parents or carers involved, we have to respect that. That can be very challenging, of course, to parents and carers who want to be involved. And of course, for young people, parents, carers, close family members are often the ones that can support them best and know them best. in some circumstances you know the young person may say well actually I absolutely don't want them involved in my care and clinicians and professionals would need to respect that but really you know good clinical practice is always to involve the consideration of family because that is good practice. But you'll not be surprised to hear that people listening to this will be sort of slightly shouting at the radio in some cases because they'll say, well, I am not listened to.

So whilst you say it's best practice to listen, in practice, many would say that isn't happening and it gets particularly bad the minute the child turns 18. I absolutely admit it can be challenging. And I think there is certainly greater learning that we have to have from these tragic cases. The system has to learn from this, actually. And we need to think about how this transition space can be different for the future. So including information from parents, carers, families as part of a therapeutic process for caring somebody is really critical. Friends and families are part of a care pathway. And thank you for focusing on this area because it's such

an important area and causes considerable stress for everyone, actually, for the young person who may be suffering from some sort of mental health issue, but also for parents and families, loved ones, it's really, really stressful. So we do need to really shift how we work in this area. And Nuala, one thing to say, we asked the Department of Health and Social Care about what they thought. They told us, we understand the transition from children's to adults mental health services can be difficult. As part of a £2.3 billion investment, all NHS integrated care systems are receiving funding to help make the transition as seamless as possible for young adults aged 18 to 25 and ensure they receive the best support possible.

Thank you so much, Carolyn. So many messages coming in. I just want to read one from an adult child perspective. My mother became involved when I was struggling with depression. This was in my first job rather than university. I was incredibly annoyed that she had been contacted without my consent and I did not find that helpful at all. There are reasons why I did not want her involved. There are reasons that I did not want her involved.

Even when children are under 18, they have rights to confidentiality if they are competent to understand. There has to be a line because with the best will in the world, some parents don't understand their children or their mental health and can make things worse. Keep your comments coming. Thank you for all of them that are coming in. 84844. Now,

let me turn to Nepal, where there are reports of a 16-year-old girl that has died as a result of the illegal practice of chow padi. This is where menstruating women are forced to stay in huts outside their home due to the centuries-old belief that they are unclean and untouchable during menstruation. This is despite the practice being made illegal across the country since 2005. We're joined from Kathmandu by journalist and campaigner Shristi Kafle who hosts a Nepalese podcast called Period Talk. You're very welcome Shristi. Tell us a little bit more about what we know so far about this girl. This is really a sad incident. A 16 year

old girl died while she was sleeping in the chow goat, which is known as a hut made up of mud and straw. So she died with a snake bite last week, exactly a week ago on Tuesday night while she was sleeping. She died due to snake bite attack. And then her body was found on Wednesday morning. And the local authorities have already confirmed that it was due to this chowkodi practice, which is really sad. Actually, so many campaigns have been going on. And as you mentioned, even there is a strong love from the side of the government. But still, such cases are happening.

This is not the first time. This is not the first incident. But it has been taken. Why does it happen, Tristi? Sorry to interrupt you. And I know there might be a little delay on the line, but if the law is there,

is it not enforced? Why are people not following it? Because it's a long time that it's in place. Yeah, it was back in 2017 when the government criminalised this practice. And then they also brought

the regulation of three months jail or the sentence, three month jail sentence or up to the fine of rupees 3000, which is very minimal, actually less than 30 euro. But, you know, because it has been deeply rooted in people's attitude, people's mindset, because they're related with something related to their religion and custom

and faith. So it's very difficult to change the perception of the people, the government, the local authorities or the security agencies. They all came up together to destroy these hearts. But people have again started building those hearts in different forms. So it's very difficult to change the perception of the people. That's most important. I mean, how could it change? Do you think? How do you think it could change? I'm wondering, just listening to you, whether it needs to come from religious leaders, for example, if it is so tied with people's faith at times? Yeah, definitely. Actually, the awareness campaigns have been going on,

but I think all the aspects of society should come together for this. I mean, the school children should be educated so that they can convince their parents. And as you mentioned, because it's related to religion, the religious leaders or the social activists, they should be there to convince people that menstruation is something so natural and it's not related to any religion or any faith or any scene

or anything as such, because they relate the period of blood as impure. So I think the most important thing is to make them understand that it's just a natural process. So the traditional healers in some parts of the Nepal, actually, they came together to convince people that it's not related to religion as well. But yes, it takes a lot of time to convince them. How do young girls and women feel about their periods, if you know? Yeah, I have visited to these remote districts like Baitedi, where this incident happened recently, also to Basura and Humla. So the young girls, they are quite vocal about this.

I mean, they have received well education about their health, about menstruation and the importance of menstrual health. But the thing is, they are really afraid to challenge their parents, you know, because it's so deeply rooted within their mindset. So the girls are ready to fight this stigma, these taboos. But the thing is, it's very difficult for them to fight with their own family members, right? So in some of the places, like in Bajra, they have already started a revolution, I mean, in their

own way. For example, some girls, they do not share with their family members that they are on their period. So it's also sort of revolution, right? But the thing is, it's very, very difficult for them to fight with their own parents, with their grandparents. So it's very difficult for them to convince them. But in the school level education now, it has been included from very early grade. So it's still there. The education is still there. But to convince the older generation, I hosts the Nepalese podcast, Period Talk. Thank you so much for joining us from Kathmandu. And thank you to all your messages that are coming in. Let me just read a couple before I go on to my next segment. My daughter was self-harming at school. The staff gave her advice on dealing with it, but did not inform me.

Their defence was they didn't know what her home situation was. Here's another from Yasmin. I attended my daughter's university open day where there were a number of parents expressing concerns for mental health and pre-existing diagnoses for their young person. We were all informed if there is an issue there are internal support services however no mention of contacting parents or involving them in addressing serious concerns. Here's another, which is a positive experience. My son experienced

an extreme manic episode in Freshers' Week at university. This followed one previous episode, which we had put down to him taking something at a festival in the summer. Before that, there had been no signs

of any mental illness. We were called by the deputy head of his halls of residence who told us he was being taken to hospital. He was massively supportive during the following weeks when my son was treated by the Student Medical Centre

and we were kept fully in the loop. I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that the deputy head, Office Hall of Residence, saved his life. He was 19 at the time. He's had no further episodes. He's now 27. One more.

Our brains are still developing until we're 26, 27 years old. I think it's absolutely right. We have mental health-based support over age-based. Speaking as someone whose niece is struggling with her mental health, who is 20, and it sounds old, but in reality, it is so young. Now, when this programme ends today, you'll probably know the Lionesses will be playing the semi-final of the Women's World Cup against the host nation, Australia.

And I know where most of this team will be playing the semi-final of the Women's World Cup against the host nation, Australia. And I know where most of this team will be come 11 o'clock. But football continues to be everywhere and it's discussed by so many. Everybody has an interest in it, it appears, that we have spoken to so far on the programme. And there is a play that marks the contribution of the Dagenham Invincibles, a very successful women's team who played during World War I when there was this huge interest in women's football. I'm joined now by the person responsible for the play, Amanda Whittington, currently one of the most produced British playwrights

and also actor Yanexi Enriquez, who plays Maya. Welcome to you both. Hiya. Amanda, how are you feeling about the Lionesses before we go any further? Very nervous, but they're going to do it. They're going to get there. Oh, you have a smile on your face. I'm feeling optimism radiating

from you. It is. Yanexia, how much of a football fan are you? Yeah, well, I've supported Arsenal. It's my family team, but I went away from football for a while, but I got into it again recently in recent years, watching the Lionesses with my mum. So now I'm loving it. So, well, you must be loving your job as well. Because let's talk about the play, Amanda. You have two storylines that are running side by side, but that are essentially about a century apart. So there's a historical one and a contemporary one. Talk us through a little about what you're trying to achieve there and for

people that are coming fresh to this. Well, some people might know, others may not know, there was a really big women's football scene in World War I. And Dick Kerr ladies, the very famous side of the Northern Factory teams, were very well known. But I was commissioned by Queen's Theatre Hornchurch to write a play based on the Essex football scene for their local area. And along with historian Steve Bolton, we discovered that there was this amazing team, Sterling Ladies,

who became the Dagenham Invincible Bulls because they were unbeaten over two seasons. They played 36 games, they won 34, they drew two. And it's a hitherto kind of untold story about that women's football scene. So I was commissioned to write the play for the Queen's Theatre. And when it was programmed to play in September, just a couple of weeks opening after the World Cup, I thought, well, gosh, you know, the World Cup is going to be so present that we need to harness that energy and that story. And also, really, it's to draw this thread between what happened a century ago and what is happening now. And the lionesses are rooted, really, in those amazing factory women who went

out and played. But hang on, then, we don't know how the story ends. Well, this is the gamble, you know, and this is, I'm writing the World Cup scenes as they're played. So I'm pretty, you know, delighted we've got a semi-final and we know we've got another match on either Saturday or Sunday. It's going to be Sunday, it's going to be the final. So like everything in football, it was a kind of a leap of faith and the theatre and the cast and Yonexi in particular, who's in the 2023 storyline, you know, took that leap of faith and thought, right, let's just go for it.

Let's do it. And we'll be fine. So Yonexi, how does it feel for you to be watching Lionesses matches then? Well, it's really tense. Actually actually the first day of rehearsal we all watched the Nigeria v England match and I just got the scene yesterday so it's a real challenge to you know take this on as an actor but Amanda's an amazing playwright and it's actually really exciting it's kind of getting a little gift every time I get a new scene and seeing where Maya's journey goes. And of course, we are taking it now, I think, in our stride, not for granted, speak to a lioness and they'll tell you how much further they feel they have to go. But if I take a step back to the Invincibles and the success they were having at that time, it was because there was no men around basically with World War One. Talk us through a little bit what happened with them, Amanda.

Well, it was right across the country. The men went to war. The young women went into the factories, either working in munitions or in Sterling's case, they were telecommunications. So they were doing radio equipment and wireless equipment and all of that. And football came from that lifestyle, really. And Stirling were very progressive in the way that they really promoted and encouraged and supported women's sport. So when the assembly room and the machine room of Stirling started playing games sort of within the factory, that led to them forming a team.

And there were numerous teams in the Chelmsford, East London area. Marconi was one of them. So there was a kind of instant league, in a way, for them to play in. And they just bought the imagination of the public because they were playing to raise money for wounded soldiers. They were very often in the Daily Mirror. They were on Pathé News, and we have wonderful footage of them on Pathé News.

And at the end of their first season, they made the New York Herald. Their photo was in there with the, coining the phrase, the unbeaten women champions of the country, which was kind of like a little poetic license because they only really played in their area. But hey, you know, it was a great,

it was a great headline. And they became the Dagenham Invincibles. And it's a remarkable story and it's a privilege to tell it. But I, you know, I'm thinking about those women that then when football wasn't available to them anymore, that they have this success and then need to retreat back into

probably the role of housewife. Absolutely, housewife and mother. And what was the kind of irony that we explore in the play is that the horror of World War I was happening and the sons and the brothers and the fiancés and the husbands were out there fighting. And yet for the women, it was a kind of time of liberation and freedom and a way to express themselves in in a way that they wouldn't be able to once the war had ended so I think they took

full advantage of this freedom and of course when the war ends that's it their role was to go back into the home and rebuild the nation as wives and mothers. So it's a very interesting time historically as well in terms of women's social history. And that's what we're exploring as much as football, actually. Let me fast forward to now and the role of Maya. How would you describe her, Yanexi? So Maya is an aspiring professional footballer and she goes to the academy system. That's her dreams. That's everything she's worked for. But she gets an ACL injury, which is a tear in the ligament of the knee, which many women footballers suffer with that injury.

Leah Williamson, for example, if we talk about our lioness captain. Yeah, so everything she's suddenly dreamed of and worked for is now gone from her. And she's left kind of lost at what to do with her life. But the Women's World Cup has just started and she starts watching the lionesses. And, you know, maybe that gives her some guidance on where she can go and what she can do from now with her life. OK, I'm already hooked. Where can we see it, Amanda? It will be coming up, obviously, after the World Cup. Yes, it's at the Queen's Theatre Horn Church opening September the 7th and it plays there till the 23rd. And then it goes to the new Wolsey in Ipswich. Oh, my God, it's going to have such a great local crowd there as well.

I can only just imagine. Quick predictions for the match today, Amanda? Oh, it's going to be tight. I don't know, 2-1 to England. 2-1 to England, Yanexi? 3-1, I'm going to say. We'll try it. 3-1, that's Yanexi Enriquez.

3-1, she says. Amanda Whittington says 2-1. Let us see what happens you can watch the match on BBC1 or indeed on the iPlayer

or maybe you want to stay with the radio and you can listen on Five Live thanks so much to both of you I do want to let people know tomorrow

we'll be talking to some teenager about the football Women's World Cup what do they think will be the lasting impact? Now, I want to go, though, in my last couple of minutes here to some of your messages that have been coming in. I want to go back to Martine, who we had.

Martine McCutcheon at the beginning, if you didn't catch her, she was talking about how she stopped driving and she did the rally race, she said, around the world. but she blamed the anxiety that was brought on by the perimenopause and she has it under control now but here's a couple of messages on that aspect just wanted to share my menopause impact on my driving it was the most stressful part for me because I would usually spend what I would usually do normally daily daily, became a time of anxiety, sweaty, foggy mind, thundering pulse.

I would arrive and then the cycle would start again immediately about the return journey. Oh my goodness. It helped me to sing while driving because that helped with my breathing. Since January, I've taken HRT. I'm 56 and thought it was all finished with.

I'm now in such a good place and I'm still singing that's Lisa in Somerset if you see a car going by singing you know it's her here's another I also

this is Sue I also suffered from severe anxiety during perimenopause that led me to stepping back from a very stressful occupation

I recovered without HRT I think it's important to mention this on your show the anxiety reduced with time for therapy for that stress.

I am fine. I am happily working again. The menopause can be very difficult, but it is not an illness. It is natural. Drugs should be a last resort, but that's according to Sue. Everybody has a different opinion on that. We welcome them all right here on Woman's Hour. That's all for today's

Woman's Hour. Join us all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I saw a footprint. I'm Andrew Benfield and I'm obsessed with the Yeti. The face looks like some kinds of monkey. The idea of a Yeti-like creature has been around for centuries. But could it be real? In Yeti, a new 10-part series from BBC Radio 4, I'm going to try to find out. I'll be joined by a good friend. You said we were going for a short walk across the valley. I'm Richard Horsey. This search isn't going to be easy. They have the ability to disappear.

Are we chasing phantoms? Yeti, Jesus, you'll never find them. But in this series, we think we might. Listen to Yeti on BBC Sounds. What's there? I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that

I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.