Woman's Hour - Mary Anning statue, Sean O'Neill and daughter's death from ME, Social care

Episode Date: May 23, 2022

This month, the health secretary announced a new plan to tackle ME and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome in England. Woman’s Hour is joined by Sean O’Neill, a senior writer for the Times, whose eldest daughter Maeve, passed away last October at the age of 27, after suffering from ME since she was a teenager. Emma also talks to Dr Charles Shepherd, medical advisor to the ME Association. ITV's reality TV show Love Island has dropped its fast fashion sponsors for more sustainable, preloved fashion for its next season. Love Island is known for setting fashion trends with contestants often wearing several outfits in each episode. But this time the outfits will be from Ebay and they will be second-hand. Emma is joined by Natalie Binns who is a fashion buying and sustainability sourcing consultant for several independent brands. In the last of our series Threads Listener Jeanie remembers her marvellous Aunty Mary whose Land Girl jacket holds so many happy memories.Tens of thousands more youngsters will end up in care unless radical changes are made to child protection a major new review has warned. Polly Curtis, journalist and author of Behind Closed Doors: Why we break up families and how to mend them, joins Emma to discuss the findings of the report.A statue of the 19th-century fossil hunter Many Anning was unveiled this weekend, on Saturday, in Lyme Regis in Dorset. Mary was a fossil hunter who made many significant discoveries. Her bronze statue is thanks to a local 15-year-old schoolgirl called Evie Swire, who campaigned for Mary to be immortalised Evie is at school today, but Emma is joined by her mother Anya Pearson.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucinda Montefiore Studio Manager: Tim Heffer

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Hope you've had a lovely weekend and got a little bit of sunshine, if it was indeed shining where you were. But on today's programme, from clothes you can't throw away to Love Island's sustainability attempt, I've got it all for you. We also have the writer and journalist Polly Curtis coming back on because today is the

day that a highly anticipated and long overdue report into children's social care in England is out. She wrote a book about the state of children's care services and has been waiting to see the outcome of this report. She'll take us through it. But let me tell you about my first guest today. Used to writing the stories, not being the story, he is Sean O'Neill, the chief reporter of The Times, known for his agenda-setting scoops, which include the alleged sexual exploitation by Oxfam aid workers. But today he's come on Woman's Hour to talk about a story,

a reality much closer to home. Because last October, he lost his 27-year-old daughter Maeve after she had suffered from ME since she was a teenager. He's now trying to raise the profile and understanding of the condition. You'll hear from Sean shortly. But before you do, I wanted to ask if you have also tried to use the loss of someone close to you in a positive way to try and make a difference somehow. It could, of course, be telling their story, raising money, setting up a campaign, a foundation. Tell me what you've done with regards to whose life has changed yours and how. And what have you tried to say about them? Often people do not wish to be defined

by the illnesses and the things in their life that have been so difficult that end up taking their life. But you tell their story, you take that on. What has ended up happening in your life as a result of the loss of someone close to you? 84844 is the number you need to text me here at Woman's Hour, I should say, as I always do, text will be charged at your standard message rate. Do check for those costs on social media at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through the Woman's Hour website. But to Sean O'Neill, first of all, I should say, he's joined me in the studio.

Good morning. Morning. Thank you for joining me and our listeners today. It's okay. And I should say for context as well at this point, you first broke your silence on this in terms of writing an article in light of the health secretary Sajid Javid only two weeks ago announcing a new plan to tackle ME and chronic fatigue syndrome in England he says with better care and support for people with the illness more research and a pledge to listen to those with lived experience

of ME that's a moment you described as the most bitter of bittersweet moments, I think you put it. Why? Because I think we've been waiting for this, families of people with ME, people with ME, have been waiting for something like this for such a long time. We've wanted somebody senior in government to look at this illness, look at the way it's been treated and regarded, not just by the NHS, but by the medical profession more widely and by society more widely. You know, there is, I feel, a prejudice against ME and a sort of belief that it's a behavioral or psychological problem. And for the Secretary of State for Health

to stand up and say, I think we need to reset the agenda on ME, we need research, we need to understand what ME is and we need to listen to people who have ME rather than listening to the medical profession and the medical establishment. I think that's really, really a massive breakthrough moment.

It makes Britain a world leader, a genuine world leader in looking at this disease. And how it's considered and treated or not. I should say at this point also that there is an inquest into your daughter's death this summer, but she lived with this for a long time, didn't she? She wasn't diagnosed until she was 18, so in 2012. But I think we knew, her family knew,

she knew there was something wrong before that. I remember picking her up from school one day. She was the only child by my first marriage, so I saw her for a long time every other weekend, for long weekends. I picked her up from school one Friday at secondary school and she'd been cross-country running she'd fainted she was struggling then with PE lessons throughout school she struggled with fatigue with just energy and sort of general debilitation not feeling up to the pace if you like but she she she went on through school

she did really well at school she was incredibly bright i mean you know really good at languages insisted on doing russian air level read russian literature read you know tried to teach herself irish because she was very proud of her irish. She was a remarkable young girl, really creative and intelligent, a beautiful singing voice. And slowly, like I say in the article, bit by bit, Emmy just stole that away from her over the years. It took her vibrancy, it took her youth,

it took her independence, and it took all her promise, it just took it all away. And, you know, her spirit was still there, but her body wasn't able to live up to her ambitions and her dreams and her wishes. And I think Maeve proves, in a way, you know, people with ME are often described as malingerers

and they've got that horrible phrase, yuppie flu was invented in the 80s. And it was made out like they didn't want to do anything they were lazy they didn't care about life may have loved life and she wanted to be something in life she wanted to make you know she wanted to make the best of life she even you know when she was kind of housebound and bedbound she managed to write a novel the first draft of a novel it's a really beautiful thing and she kept it kind of hidden until she was too ill, and then I read it during her last weeks

while just being near her, you know? And it's a wonderful, quirky story, a crime drama set on Dartmoor where she grew up, and it's beautiful, but there are also passages in it that really reflect her grief, that there's a character who's lonely and who's lost her husband. And at times that character is speaking Maeve's voice to me about the loss of, she talks about the irretrievable loss of others

and the grief she lives not being able to live her fullest and best life. And it's deeply sad that we lost her, that the world lost her. It sounds like she fought incredibly hard not to be defined by this. She didn't want to be remembered as somebody who had ME. That wasn't the only thing she was there for. You know, she had, like I say, so much promise. I think one of the most striking things, and it's going to stay with me a long time,

one of the, you know, you are a writer for a living, you're a very good writer, but one of the lines in the piece that you wrote about this, you said you've been living with cancer for 12 years and that Maeve would have been better off in the NHS with cancer what do you mean by that because cancer is recognized and understood and massively researched and if you turn up at hospital I was lucky to be diagnosed very early with my cancer, with leukemia. You're in a system, there are protocols and pathways and there are ways of treating things. Cancer is understood and the boundaries of knowledge in cancer

are continually being pushed. So my cancers are, you know, I had chemo first time around. I might have had to have a bone marrow transplant. But my consultant told me the other day he hasn't done a bone marrow transplant for 10 years because the new drugs that are being produced by the new research are so good and he already knows if my current drug fails what my next drug regime will be. So Maeve went into the health system and battled with a health system that didn't recognise her illness. There's no laboratory diagnostic test, there's no treatment,

there's no real understanding, and there's a lot of apathy and ignorance and prejudice against people with ME because they are seen in a particular way and she you know she researched and researched she was incredibly knowledgeable about her condition but the patient can't cure herself she doesn't have the resources she can't do the develop the new technologies and new medicines that are required. And it sounds like she was struggling to keep on top of it. Never mind, think about how best to... Well, it's very debilitating.

It takes away a life. There are... The figure used is 250,000 people in the UK with ME. That figure's been around for about 10 years. I suspect the number's much higher and around 25% of people and these are surveys around the world are severely affected

that largely means housebound or in the worst cases like me it was eventually bedbound because it's a relentless march of this disease it doesn't some people have fluctuating conditions but some people who get it severely it just takes their whole lives away How old was she when when she became bed bound

she was the last two or three years okay so it's a long it's quite a long time it was housebound and increasingly spending more time in bed she just she couldn't get up. And I didn't live with her. She lived with her mum in Devon. And it became, I have to say, it fractures families as well because for a long time I was, you know, it was incredibly frustrating to not be able to see somebody you love because they don't have the energy and the strength to sustain a visit um and that happens with lots of families since since i wrote about emmy i've written a few things about it but especially since i wrote about me of a lot of

people have been in touch who say i have exactly the same experience i i i are the patients themselves who say i can't get out i can't see my family it's too exhausting i struggle to eat and it's not because they don't want to eat it because the body hasn't got the energy to digest the food um that's you know it's been overwhelming the number of people who've come forward and said i I'm in the same position. This is terrible. Sufferers and carers. It's the time that we're also talking in. I'm very aware, especially I know we'll be getting messages as we're talking from people with experiences of either themselves

or those that they love and are close to. I'm very aware that we're talking in a time of long COVID and people trying to get people to, the medical professionals, to listen to them to look after them how much do you think that might have an impact on this? I think long COVID is a game changer probably but also something that maybe was avoidable you know if we'd put the research into ME years ago we might have the answer to long COVID already but long COVID is producing in a lot of people very similar symptoms, huge overlapping symptoms. It's like most ME, it's post-viral. It seems to be autoimmune that the body, even after

mild COVID, can turn on itself and produce this long debilitating reaction. And there are around the world billions of pounds going into research into long COVID. And a lot of the researchers, the more advanced researchers, the people who are open to new thinking are saying, well, this could produce answers not just for ME, but for, you know, not just for long COVID, but for ME and for other post-viral illnesses. Sean O'Neill, stay with me. Let me bring in Dr. Charles Shepard, who's a medical advisor to the ME Association and worked on drawing up NICE guidelines for ME for the medical profession,

which were published last year. Dr. Charles Shepard, good morning. Morning, Emma. What I haven't said yet is it's estimated that 2.4 times more women than men are affected by ME in England and Wales. That's according to the NICE figures, National Institute for Health and Care Excellence. Do we know why? We don't fully understand why, but there are a number of conditions that involve the immune system, hormones, genetic predisposition, in which we've got a female predominance.

I mean, it's interesting that there's a similar sort of picture with multiple sclerosis here. We think that roundabout 3 to 1 is the female to male ratio of people with ME. And it may well be that it's this combination of genetic predisposition, the fact that people's immune system may respond differently, and female hormones. I mean, one of the interesting things about ME is that quite often people with ME improve, women with ME improve during pregnancy. And again, that's something that happens with multiple sclerosis. So it's not unusual to have a disease that that has a female predominance and it's something that happens with other neurological and immune-based diseases like like me um could i just

say that that sean has has given a a very moving picture not not only of what happened to Maeve, but also of the denial, the ignorance and the neglect that is still happening for people with ME from certain sections of the medical profession. There are some very honourable exceptions, but this cannot go on. And I think we have now got some very clear indications, not only from this ministerial statement that came last week, but we've got a new NICE guideline, which has been very much welcomed by the patient community. And later this week, we've got an all party parliamentary report coming out on all aspects of ME, which I hope is going to act as a further catalyst to really get something done to help people with this illness. How quickly do you think there could be changes? Because I'm very aware, you know, we've got a message here from Paul, we've got a message from Beth, and so they

keep coming from women listening with ME at the moment who just about, you know, getting out of bed in the instance I'm just reading here and managing to function a little bit and then getting back into bed and needing some of the basics to be put in place. How fast could we see change, do you think? Well, I think hopefully with the minister getting involved and the desire to have a plan, and there's a lot going on behind the scenes at the moment with meetings at the Department of Health, we've got a nice guideline which has sat there now for six months. We want to see services implemented, new services set up where people can be sent for hospital-based help with their diagnosis and their management. Many parts of the UK, particularly Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, have no such services at all. Really?

And that really is something which has got to be done as a matter of urgency and the other point about the new nice guideline which has abandoned this idea that this illness is a psychosomatic disorder which has been put forward by psychiatrists for many years so we no longer treating people with cbt and graded exercise. There is a whole new management plan there in this guideline and we want to see that implemented. There's no reason why that shouldn't be going on now. So are you confident, I mean, perhaps it's hard to say, especially if you've been waiting six months,

but are you confident that with these guidelines, certainly in England, that no one will be questioned if it's in their head or not? I'm not totally confident because there's still a certain resistance unfortunately from from the royal colleges some people at the royal colleges to what has gone into these guidelines there is resistance. Why what is their resistance is it is it just what they've been told and they can't move their minds on to the reality? There is a mindset amongst certain members of the medical profession that this is an illness which is all in the mind.

When I was at medical school, and there are people of my generation who still hold these views, when I was at medical school back in the early 1970s, I was told this was all mass hysteria, it was hysterical nonsense, go away, forget about it. So there is a lot of change so there is a lot of change there is a lot of cultural change that needs to take place within the medical profession and we need this policy change as well to get people diagnosed within the first three months of the onset of

their symptoms yes and then being given proper advice on their activity and energy management, good symptom control and help with everything else that they need with social care, in particular for people at the severe end of the spectrum. Dr. Charles Shepard, thank you very much for your time and expertise this morning. A message from Kirsty says, thank you to Sean, who's still with me, I should say, for sharing his story eloquently and giving people with ME a voice. I have had relapsing, remitting ME for 26 years. I'm currently bed bound and house bound. The absence of any medical advances has made me lose hope of leading a normal life again. As Ephraim's also messaged to say, Sean, I'm crying here listening to this conversation about ME. My 1987 diagnosis gave me something to hang on to, but I still struggle to manage my daily energy. I'm wary of the wariness. 35 years on, more than half of my life.

With Maeve, and if I may ask this, and I recognise how difficult this is, and I am so incredibly sorry, I should also say, I know I said this to you just off air before we came on, I'm so incredibly sorry for you and your family's loss. You know, how did she face it towards the end? And was there anything that you... Were you able to process this was happening? It took me a long time to accept this was happening. How did she process it? She got fed up with hospital admissions.

She had three really gruelling hospital admissions last year. And as you said, there's going to be an inquest. And I think there are a lot of questions that will have to be answered there about how the hospital handled her case right from her first admission, right through to the issue of where her mum and I had to fight to get proper palliative care for her because someone somewhere in the system didn't believe in her illness. So that was happening to her? That was happening to her. She faced it with incredible bravery, some dark humour, some real anger. But with phenomenal courage. It was, like you said, it's hard to believe, hard to accept. But in the end she said, I don't want to go back to hospital. I want to die at home, surrounded by people who love me.

It was just, it still is utterly heartbreaking. Of course. Thank you for coming to talk about her today. Thank you. I think it's, I don't know what she'd make of her dad on the radio. What do you think? She might hate me for talking about it, for not writing about it earlier in my career.

She might be angry with me. She was good at being angry. She was a lovely girl, an amazing young woman. Yeah. I'm just so sorry she can't be here. Well, you have also painted a wonderful picture of her and her hopes and the writing and

everything else, because I know how important that is to give a fuller picture of Maeve as well. But Sean, thank you so much for coming on. Thanks Emma, thank you. Sean O'Neill talking and remembering Maeve, his daughter, and many of you I have to say, getting in touch this morning about your own experiences and also perhaps what a loss in your family

has meant in terms of what you've then done. I mean, Margaret here has emailed to say, I had ME for eight years, I was bedbound for some of that time. Some complementary medicine brought me out of it. My GP was very sympathetic but couldn't help me. It's very positive but also very frustrating. It's taken long Covid to bring post-viral illness and therefore ME to people's attention. Another one, I developed chronic fatigue syndrome in 2014, aged 56. I thought my life

wasn't going to be worth living. I can imagine a young person would find it hard to see a future. This is a heartbreaking story. This is a message that's come in on Twitter, but thank you for sharing it. And so they keep coming. And another one, just to say from Pam, mid-October 1982, I was a full-time teacher, sole parent of two. I got out of bed to get my children up for school and then fell flat on my face. That was the beginning of my ME journey, which still continues, including heart failure. My goodness. And Beth also has said so much we could say about ME. And at last, there's a tiny ray of hope that some medical help or support may become available, in particular,

that staff may be trained to understand this complex chronic illness rather than being misinformed. It's such a misunderstood condition. More often than not, people think it's about being tired all of the time, which is just the tip of the iceberg. Beth, thank you so much for taking the energy to write this message. Who's had it, Beth here says, for approximately 35 years. You've also got in touch to talk about things that you have done with regards to loss and talking about loss and trying to help others. Might just away from me for a moment, but please do keep those messages coming on that.

My older brother died suddenly when he was 25 and I was 19, more than 15 years ago. Of course, the tragic loss devastated the family, but a positive I took from it is that I became less anxious about taking chances. It changed my perspective to make the most of my opportunities and think, well, what's the worst that can happen? Which meant I've taken more risks with my career and life choices. And another one here, thank you for that. My son and wife set up a charity when my daughter died of secondary breast cancer five years ago.

I'm so sorry to hear that. Kicking off against cancer raises money through football events and arranges outings and weekends away for anyone living with cancer to make memories for their families to honour Vicky's memory. Well, we'll do that as well, of course, by you sending that very message in

and thinking of you and your family and of Vicky too. Keep those messages coming in, please. Thank you so much to those who've already got in touch. 84844, of course, about things that you have done to remember people, but also your experiences of ME and perhaps how you've been treated within that system. Now, I mentioned with regard to television, a change that is coming, and this was announced just at the end of last week. And it regards something I know a lot of you care deeply about, sustainability. But let's see what you make

of this, because at the end of last week, it was announced that ITV's reality TV show Love Island has dropped its fast fashion sponsors for more sustainable pre-loved clothes for its next season. Love Island, which sees young people looking for love in a villa in Spain, I'm sure some of you will have heard of it, is known for setting fashion trends, with contestants often wearing several outfits in each episode. But this season, those outfits will be different. They'll be from eBay and they will be second hand. Natalie Binns joins me, a fashion buyer and sustainable sourcing consultant for several independent brands. Natalie, this seems to be quite a departure from where Love Island has been in the past on this, because it has previously partnered with fast fashion brands.

I saw it first misguided to give a couple of examples. Yeah, it's a massive departure from where they've been before. And to be honest, I'm overjoyed. And all I've seen is people just praising this move. I think it's fantastic. We know that fast fashion runs on exploitation. It particularly affects women in the global south and it destroys the environment.

And Love Island has played a massive part in promoting that in the last seven years. So seeing them move away from it and into this eat, sleep, re-wear, repeat mantra that they're talking about is fantastic. It's about to start, isn't it? I'm going to profess some ignorance here. Yeah, it's about to start.

I'm not sure of the date. Yeah, very shortly. I've obviously not set my diary by it yet. I mean that. But, you know, even me not as a viewer, and I can declare that, you know, I am also aware of those links and how important what the contestants are wearing,

how many times they've worn it, you know. This whole idea as well, I suppose, of some of the media commentary of just clothes generally, you know, even with the royal family, you know, the re-wearing off, the big recycle if somebody wears something more than once. Do you think this sort of move of such a mainstream programme indicates we're making a move away? I hope so. I think what's really exciting is that this is going to go into the homes of so many different types of people with different habits. I know I talk about sustainability all the time on my social media, but I sometimes think that I'm preaching to the converted. I'm talking to people

who are looking to make a change already and they're already doing things. And, you know, they're kind of patting me on the back when I say I've done something and I'm patting them on the back. And, you know, this is going into the homes of normal people who've maybe never considered the impact of their clothing and even regardless of whether they're ready to make a change there's going to be a change force upon them because previously you could buy what someone was wearing immediately as soon as the show was over or even during the show whereas you're not going to be able to do that anymore yes and that was what a lot of them have gone on to do. The contestants, haven't they, have their own collaborations, actually some of them with the fast fashion brands,

which is obviously very lucrative. It is obviously an art buying secondhand clothes to an extent, you know, it takes more effort. You've got to find things that suit you, get, you know, they're in a good condition. It depends whether you can do it in person or not. And all of that. I mean, what do you think the contestants will make of this? I'm really interested to see what happens. I think it's going to be really down to eBay and how well they curate the clothing to give them. I mean, the thing is, eBay, they know what they're doing. So I think that they will be spending a lot of time making sure that the right kind of clothes are going in there. And what I'm excited to see is that I think this is going to reduce that stigma of second-hand

clothing and your people will start to realize you can actually buy anything second-hand anything you can see in the shop right now you can buy it second-hand do you do it I do yeah okay so and and is it through uh particular websites or do you like to go and do it in person kind of what's your what's your vibe on that a bit of everything and actually to be honest ebay is one of my favorites that's just because i think you know you've got other people like depop who are a lot younger and i find that ebay has the brands that i probably be looking for um so i do use ebay a lot i also sell my own clothes on ebay and i see it as a bit of a one-in-one-out kind of system so it enables to me to be creative with my wardrobe experiment with my style but actually i'm kind of just paying for it by selling something else

um but I do do it in person as well sometimes in person is so much easier you can try things on um but there's so many different ways of getting secondhand clothing even just swapping with friends you know just doing a swap shop with friends doing a clear out getting everybody over um people people though could be really supportive uh of this couldn't they um this whole you know way of shopping and the way of doing but they they may be time poor they for instance they may just think well i've got to get this this for this job or i've got to do this for this wedding or whatever you know and they don't really know how or where to start. I mean, what do you make of that as an excuse? I mean, I think it's fine if you're changing your habits broadly. Occasionally you're going to buy something new. Also think about rental. I tried rental for the first time last year and I loved it. I did it for my 40th birthday. I rented two

different dresses and actually the prices were not too high in fact I think it was about 30 pounds for each dress and I was wearing dresses that were worth over 200 so that's actually that works out very well yeah it's really good but yeah I think the number one thing to remember as well is that the most sustainable outfit is the one that's already in your wardrobe so you know think about looking in your wardrobe and can you wear something again there is absolutely no shame in going to a wedding in the outfit you wore to the last wedding no I have three this year and um you know there won't be any of the same guests at each and I am very happy to be I've found one dress and that will be having a

very good airing and a clean between uh of course, as we discussed in a previous programme, perhaps a dab clean if I don't really go for it as much. Yeah, absolutely. That's a whole other conversation, isn't it, about how we clean. Well, we'll see how this goes down on Love Island, of course. I'm sure I'll be reliably informed. But just while you're with us as a fashion buying and sustainable sourcing consultant, I think I've got that right, Natalie.

I've just thought it would be remiss of me if I didn't ask you about our next conversation. We've had a bit of a returning series on Women's Hour called Threads, where our listeners have been getting in touch with us about, you know, that item or those couple of items of clothing that you move from house to house with.

It might be something from your childhood or something that has been given to you, but you could never part with it. I mean, we've had everything from baby clothes through to a scratch and sniff T-shirt from someone's university days, which their daughter now has, I think I've remembered rightly. Is there anything that you have that you have had for a long time that you just couldn't get rid of? I mean, I talked about my one in one out system where I try and, you know, keep clearing things out on eBay so that, you know, I only spend money that I'm getting getting rid of something I I have certain things I've got a shirt a plaid shirt um that

actually was my mum's and I think she's even was in a photo where of of me of herself pregnant with me wearing it oh lovely and so I'll never get rid of it it feels really it's got that perfect amount of softness as well you know when you kept something for a really long time. And it doesn't, it doesn't fit me that well anymore, but I'll just, I'll just keep it anyway. There's no way I'm going to get rid of it. Where do you keep it? Is there somewhere particular? In the wardrobe, because I think that at some point I think I'm going to be able to fit back in there or I'm going to wear it creatively or something. I like to have everything so I can see it. That's why I'm always clearing clearing out I like to be able to see everything summer

winter all at once just in case just in case I'm inspired I like that I'm also always thinking I'll get back into that or that will happen again mine was right at the beginning of this I shared mine was a skirt for my 18th birthday when kind of sex in the city was very the thing a big skirt with all sequins on it and you know netting and all of that and i am i still haven't put it back on but we'll see i keep imagining with some trainers a little leather jacket it will happen but exactly natalie bins lovely to talk to you thank you very much for sharing your threads but also reacting to that news with love island so staying staying with clothes, keeping with that, going straight into our next part, our next instalment, I should say, of Threads. Let's talk about a particular

jacket. It's an interesting one for our listener, Jeannie. Jeannie, good morning. Hi. Thank you so much for coming. This is the jacket. You're wearing it. Right. You've put it on. You've put it on. You've put it on. Okay, we are on the radio now.

We are on a video call. So will you describe it first of all? But it's lovely to see it on you. This is a short bomber jacket. It's suede with very, very tatty lining. It zips up and it's extremely tiny. And who's it from? About size six i would think well you're looking good in it um and it's a nice it's a nice sort of chocolatey brown it looks looks to me here

or perhaps a bit lighter tan tan yeah with a you know with a stant little yeah this is why i don't work in fashion or describing these sorts of things but um help me out who who gave this to you so this was given to me by auntie mary who was my father's sister and um she had been a land girl and this was the jacket she had when she was a land girl and i think she gave it to me when I was about 16 and sort of beginning to want more teenagey clothes. And we were brought up in Lancashire and there were not a lot of really good clothes to buy in Lancashire for teenagers. And so I wore this jacket and felt really cool. And did you know, I mean, it is a very cool looking jacket. And as you say, quite tatty on the arms now, but it's been around a while.

Although that could be in its own way. No, it's had quite a lot of wear. But did she tell you about the story associated with it and what she did in it? She didn't really, but we did know about her being a land girl. I mean, she'd left quite a sort of restricted, I suppose, restricted upbringing. But that was how it was those days. Yes. And joined, I think she must have, she didn't join the army.

My mother joined the WAF. She was the same age. But my auntie Mary became a land girl in Lancashire. And she had just loved it. She was born into an industrial town, Bury, Lancashire and she had just loved it she was born into an industrial town Bury Lancashire and she just loved being out in the countryside and working with horses and she I think she loved the freedom. Did it have an impact on her life do you think that experience? Huge impact on her life yes a huge impact in what way would you say I think it was

just finding freedom and it released her from the sort of strictures really of quite a almost Victorian upbringing and I think it showed her and of course women of that time as well they could just go and do jobs that they never expected to do so yeah she just um I think she just got up and went out and lived life yes but and is that what's in your mind when you when you see the jacket or do you absolutely do you keep it somewhere you can see it actually because or maybe it's packed away it it is sitting in the wardrobe I have have to say, but it has had a bit of an airing lately because of being contacted. I don't know why I suddenly wrote in, but I thought this is very special. No, it's great. We love it. That's what we want.

Yeah. And so I contacted my sisters and also my daughters. And because this now has become the jacket of magnificent endeavour, and we might become the sisterhood of the travelling jacket. Oh, I love this. One sister wore it definitely when she was a teenager, and my daughter wore it when she was a student. I love that, the jacket. The jacket of magnificent endeavour.

What a wonderful title. I mean, that's going to be a book, surely. This is going to keep on going, Jeannie. What do you think she was thinking of when she gave it over to you or why do you think she wanted you to have it? Well, I suppose by then she was a sort of young mum of of um and I think probably perhaps it didn't fit her anymore but she she had sons so she didn't she had three sons so no no girl and um no heir to the jacket of magnificent

endeavor very much she was a very good friend of my mother. They married at the same time and they had babies at the same time. So I think I was sort of almost by extension a very close niece. Well, it's lovely to hear about her, Aunty Mary, and think about the impact and that story that you can get just through the jacket. And I love that you're wearing it. That's an extra treat I can just about fit it fit so it does just about do up so I feel quite pleased with myself really yeah no I mean don't put it on eBay because those love islanders might oh no it's not going on eBay I tell you not absolutely no way Jeannie thank you so much

what a pleasure to talk to you thank Thank you very much. Well, we've got messages coming in off the back of those two discussions. Jill saying, I buy 99% of my clothes from charity shops. I love the hunt for a fabulous bargain and my wardrobe is fantastic. I bet it is, Jill. Christine's email to say, though, just remember when it comes to rental clothes, we should bear in mind an item of clothing does have to be cleaned often dry clean between rentals adding chemicals so not always necessarily green so there's a bit of a reminder there from christine for which we are grateful i have to say also many of you still getting in touch off the back of my interview with the journalist sean o'neill who was coming onto the program to talk about uh his daughter mave who died last year having lived and suffered with ME since a young

age but she died at the age of 27 and a message saying from Christina it's heartbreaking listening to Sean talking about his daughter just shocking to be treated this way I was diagnosed in 1990 and it still rules my life it's the worst feeling when you tell someone you have ME and you get that look and you know you're being judged. And more messages, I have to say, along those lines. But a lot of you also finding comfort that we're talking about this this morning and, you know, giving voice to that and to some of that judgment. And we're also getting messages, I should say, in response to my very first question, because, of course, Sean used to writing the stories about other people's lives, you know,

done something very uncomfortable for him and talked about his own family, but that's because of the memory of his daughter and how he felt she was treated. What have you done with some of those that you've been close to, their memories, their losses? How have you perhaps used them, if I can put it like that, to good? Maureen says, after the death of my parents in 2020,

within four weeks of each other, very sorry to hear that, I started The Kitchen Table, a safe space for people to come together to share their loss, to acknowledge them and to consider their legacy from talking to documenting, including sharing poetry. What a lovely thing. Maureen, thank you very much indeed for that message. right at the start of the programme, but a major report is out today which says that tens of thousands more children will end up in care unless radical changes are made to child protection in England. The Independent Review into Council-run services has said that struggling families need earlier support before they reach crisis point. The report's lead author is the former teacher Josh McAllister, who's now calling for £2.6 billion over five years and a windfall tax on big private children's homes. That's a phrase we're hearing, of course, elsewhere at the moment politically.

Polly Curtis is journalist and author of the book Behind Closed Doors, Why We Break Up Families and How to Mend Them. You may remember we had Polly on the programme in the run-up to this report and we wanted to get you back, Polly. Good morning. Thanks so much for having me. Hello. Hello. I should also say congratulations. I believe you've been nominated for the book for the Orwell Prize and it's a very

powerful account indeed. I learnt a great deal from it. But your reaction today then to this report? Well, I think it's really, really bold. It's a review that addresses the elephant in the room in this system because it's about love and it's about review that addresses the elephant in the room in this system, because it's about love. And it's about how the state cares for children and loves them when their parents don't or can't.

It's 250 pages long. It took a lot of late night reading. But the word love is in there 42 times and loving appears 50 times. And I think that's really radical for a set of government proposals. But I'd also say it's this really hard case for change in there as well. It recommends the whole system shifts from one that intervenes at the last minute and breaks up families to one that supports families to stay together safely much more thoroughly. What do you think the impacts of mentioning the L word

so much could have? Well, I think, I mean, it's interesting, isn't it? I think some people think, oh, that's a bit fluffy, isn't it, for a government policy or for a proposed set of government policy. But actually that is what this system is about. That is our responsibility. We call children in care have a corporate parent, which is the local authority.

And that's very cold, hard language. And for children experiencing this system, they need to feel loved as well. And I think kind of there's a really quite a moving recommendation in there. It sets up five missions for children who leave the care system and, you know, better education and those kind of things. But the first one is that they should leave the care system with two adults or two people that they have a loving relationship with. And that is actually what this system is about. And what about the structure of social work and how social workers are able to do their job or not able? We have also heard some very difficult and tragic cases with

regards to children and things that have been missed. But also, I hear from social workers who get in touch with the programme only last week, actually, saying how difficult they find their job to do at the moment. Yeah. So at the moment, social workers get involved with children at um you know when when they come to the attention of the authorities and they go in and it it's usually with a mindset to help that family um unless there are kind of triggers for kind of um more dangerous things going on um and the same social worker might be supporting that family and then taking that family to court to remove their child. So one of the big and radical kind of solutions is to split the role of social workers into people who are really focused on early help and those who get involved at a later point to be

child protection experts and that they should work side by side to support a family but also make sure that we're really interrogating what's going on in that family and making sure children are safe and that will be controversial among social work groups because I think lots of social workers see their skill as being in that continuum and in my book I met so many social workers who were the most incredible skilled people who could hold a family's hand and then challenge them to do better and then be really open and honest that they weren't doing well enough and that something would have to change otherwise their child would be removed but I also met and heard of and saw evidence of a lot of social workers who find it really hard because they're too inexperienced, because they're too new to the job to make these really difficult decisions.

Well, at the moment, we are removing more children than ever before. Eighty thousand children in the care system. And we still miss children like Arthur Labinio-Hughes, you know, it's that double failure that getting underneath families, getting in there earlier, knowing families better should stop. Yes, of course, the case of toddlers, Arthur Labinio-Hughes, you've just mentioned, and Star Hobson, who died in separate incidents in 2020. This has been long awaited, this report, hasn't it, that's been published today? It's been a promise for a long time yeah so the government first um promised a review in 2019 this work has been going on for the last year um and um it promises a really radical change within this kind of five-year

plan so you mentioned this um need for 2.6 billion up front to change the system. Actually, this is a rare policy situation where there will be payback from that. So it's not just money that disappears within seven years. That money will come back into the system because fewer children are going into care. I was just going to say very briefly on that, will that be a sign of, quote unquote, success if fewer children go into care? So the report is expressly saying that there are too many children going into care. There are currently 80,000 children in care.

They project in 10 years there'll be 100,000 children in care. The cost's kind of spiralling at that. And through the 25 years that it's been increasing, there's been no change in the numbers of children dying. So it's not like we're removing the right children. We're removing the wrong children and missing other children. You know, that's the point it's trying to tackle. If the government puts in 2.6 billion at this stage, within 10 years, there'll be 30,000 fewer children in care.

What are your confidence levels like having interviewed so many people, I suppose, to do with the industry and the policymakers? Do you have faith that this report with the recommendations could help and will be implemented? I think it could make an absolutely game changing difference. I think the one kind of thing to really register in that is the context we're in right now. So there are reports today of the highest number of referrals to children's mental health services. We all know about the cost of living crisis. The children's care system does not operate in a vacuum. It's a result of poverty, of mental health problems, of domestic violence, of a whole load of things happening across society. And I think particularly on poverty, the challenges that families are going to be facing, that is the biggest challenge to this

plan at the moment. Yes, well, as you say, I mean, it was a front page, I believe, of The Guardian this morning, but obviously everywhere else has carried this. The latest figures from the NHS say that open referrals troubled children and young people in England undergoing treatment or waiting to start care has now reached the highest number since records began in 2016 to more than 420,000 children that's what you're you're referring to with regards to the context. That's right that's right and it's those it's it's a lot about those mental health problems within families not just children parents, that pushes so many families into crisis. And the importance of early help can't be overstated here. The families I met in my research for my book were people who were told that their children were being removed

before they qualified for proper mental health treatments. I mean, that is an absolute scandal. We should be doing everything we can to support families to stay together. It's also just an economic folly. It costs so much more to put a child into care. It creates an intergenerational cycle of trauma. We need to help families do better. Just finally, Polly, I know we spoke before, but for those who missed it, and I think in the context of this, it's helpful.

As a journalist, why did you want to look at this properly? Because it is one of those very difficult, dare I say, perennial issues of our society that people perhaps just can't engage very easily with? I think it's for that reason. It's easy to turn away from a subject like this. It's about tremendous suffering and pain in families. I think it is the sharpest point where state meets family. And if we can do this well, we can be proud of the society and the state we live in. If we continue to fail in the way we are at the moment, you know, it's just not a society I want to live in. And I think that's why it's so important the government puts this money in now to make this happen.

But also that people start looking at this and seeing what they can do to be part of this. This is a problem that extends through communities and it's about how communities pull together to support families as well. Polly Curtis, thank you very much for giving us an overview of that report, which as you say, late night reading, a lot of pages in there, but things to note and very helpful for us to hear. The journalist and author of the book, Behind Closed Doors, Why We Break Up Families and How to Mend Them. Now, let me tell you about a woman that you may have heard of, you may not have heard of, perhaps more now will have heard of because of a statue to her, a statue of the 19th century fossil hunter Mary Anning was unveiled, revealed, however you want to put it, this weekend on Saturday in Lyme Regis in Dorset, where she grew up.

Mary hunted fossils, made a lot of important discoveries that have shaped the way we think about prehistoric times. And this bronze statue that was just unveiled is actually down to another woman, to a girl, a local 15-year-old schoolgirl called Evie Swire, a young woman, let's put it like that, who campaigned for Mary to have this and raised more than £100,000. Evie, I'm sure you'll be happy to hear, is at school today, but I am joined now by her mother, Anya Pearson. Anya, good morning. Good morning. Thanks for having me. Well, thanks for being available and not being at school. Yes. I mean, you know, I'll let Evie off this time off this time but next time you know we've got to think about this the media strategy uh this is this is an amazing story and an amazing story i'm

sure well of endeavor i was just hearing about the jacket of magnificent endeavor from one of our other listeners our previous guests but why did she why did she why did your daughter become so enamored well they'd learn at school it was 100 years of suffrage because evie was 10 when it first started and she's now 15. So it's been a long campaign with a bit of Covid in the middle, which didn't help. No. And she was learning about the suffragette movement. And her brilliant teacher had shown her a statue of Melissa Fawcett's statue that had gone up in Parliament Square. And we were coming off the beach after fossil hunting.

And, you know, it made sense that if Melissa had a statue, then Mary should have a statue, Mummy. So can we go and see it? And then I had this horrible conversation with her about how women, you know, were in Victorian times were classed as property and they had no rights and, you know, that she'd been forgotten in history. And it was her kind of physical redneck and her anger and her little face. And I just thought, she's right.

We should all be absolutely horrified that this incredible, incredible woman is, you know, that's not only important to Lyme, to Britain and to science globally, you know, had been forgotten in Lyme region. So that was it really. And I kind of thought, right, let's do something about this. And that's how it happened really on that day on the beach. I love that because also you're going to have a response, I imagine, to this,

that while we've been on air, Barbara has emailed to say, as a distant relative of Mary Anning, I would love to thank Evie and Anya for all the work they have done to make this amazing tribute to Mary a reality. The statue is a perfect tribute. All involved should be very proud. Oh, brilliant. Thank you, Barbara.

Actually, we call everybody our Anning Army. Oh, nice. Because as soon as social media started to build four years ago, we just had hundreds and hundreds of people. And we've got so many Annings that, you know, we've even got a big group in Australia. They've got a Facebook group, the Annings of Australia, you know. So the support is just immense.

And the love for her was just overwhelming. We knew she was loved, but we didn't realise the scale of it. And when I walked from the VIP event down to where we were going to do the unveiling to meet Professor Alice Roberts, who was going to do the unveiling with the children. And I walked up the kind of brow and I saw it was like over 2000 people. It was just incredible. You know, and for me, that was a real kind of brow and I saw it was like over 2,000 people. It was just incredible. And for me, that was a real kind of magical moment, all these people who just love her completely and have loved the campaign. What's it been like to do this with your daughter? It's lovely because she's kind of grown up as well

and she's grown up through the whole process. And I think now she's a teenager and everything's embarrassing and it's a bit awkward and it's a bit overwhelming for her. I think when she looks back on it's she's a teenager and everything's embarrassing and it's a bit awkward and it's a bit overwhelming for her i think when she looks back on it when she's a young woman i think she'll be really proud of it but it's a great it's a great opening sentence i don't know to a cv um you know a conversation with someone a date uh you know i don't know like when she writes her if she wants to go to university when she writes her statement you know very few people have got things to say at all ages never mind at her age yeah definitely yeah we've been saying that and

we've also also been asked to do um oh you're getting a call from from one of the army now my agent and we've also been asked to write a book about our whole journey about um raising the statue because we've just had so much interest about oh oh my, how did you do that? You know, how do you even... And how did you do it? What would you say? I think it was just because, I think it was because we were a group of women and we wanted to raise a statue for a woman

and we picked a female artist to create. And I just think when you get a lot of women in a room together, we get stuff done. You know, we don't mess about. We kind of roll our sleeves up. you know there's that saying if you want something done well give it to a woman you know um but it was just tenacity really and you know I work in the fashion industry and uh and I work with and I teach students about branding and marketing and as soon as you name something then it lives you give it a name and it lives and

breathes and that was it and people can get behind that banner you know so mary annie rocks and the way we branded it was hugely important and it made it very visual for everybody and and now it's a reality i mean what what was it like i know you described the event but what was actually like to see the statue for both of you well for me she went in on the monday so she came down on a wagon all the way down from wales from the foundry and on the monday i I was there um in my lunch break and it was wet and windy and my hair was flying around and she went in and it was and as soon as I saw her going and the guys were like right she's in I was like brilliant job done that was my moment you know that's when I got all teary and I was a bit like oh my god she's gone in um but the cherry

on the cake was Saturday you know seeing all the children and wearing our T-shirts and coming up and giving me hugs and all the lovely comments and everything. All the comments on social media have been absolutely inundated. They even crashed our website this morning. Really? Yeah. Love that you've obviously got the website, you've got the social media. I mean, what are you going to do now with yourself? Well, there is the learning legacy.

You know, this is a very visceral sort of physical representation of Mary, but to make sure that she's never forgotten again, there's a Mary Ann in Rocks learning legacy, which will live beyond like a sustainable. And that's about getting kids from underserved backgrounds down on those beaches. I mean, kids that wouldn't even get to see the seaside, let alone go and find an actual fossil. So we're going to plan that with with educational experts and that's going to be the next sort of um phase if your daughter's you know not too uh embarrassed to be seen with you she's actually going to kill me for saying that now well can you say congratulations from us if it's not too embarrassing to have admitted we've spoken to one another of such things huge congratulations to you as well though anya behinda. Behind a great daughter there, a great mother. So Anya Pearson, thank you to you. And all started with Evie Swire's campaign. There you go. But before I leave you today, I wanted to flag an exclusive interview that we have coming out on TV tonight and in full tomorrow on a dedicated episode of Woman's Hour. Nazanin

Zaghari-Ratcliffe, the British-Iranian woman who was freed from detention in Iran in March of this year, many of you, I'm sure, will remember that moment. I actually remember announcing it here on air. After six years away from her home and husband and daughter, has never told her own story in full until now. I wanted to personally invite you to watch a Woman's Hour special TV programme this evening on BBC One.

It's in England and Northern Ireland at 8pm and Scotland and Wales at 10 past 11. And listen to a full version of that interview, which I assure you is very special indeed, tomorrow here on Radio 4 on Woman's Hour at 10am. Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe wants you to hear her experiences, what she's endured from her. And I hope you will join us for an insight that I promise you won't get anywhere else. And that interview will live long in my memory. And it's a pleasure to be able to bring it to you. Thank you, as always, for your company today. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hi, I'm Andy Oliver, and I'd like to tell you all about my Radio 4 series, One Dish. It's all about why you love that one dish, the one that you could eat over and over again without ever getting tired of it. Each week, a very special guest will bring their favourite food to my table

and will be unpacking the history of it. And food psychologist Kimberly Wilson is on hand to talk us through the science bit. What food reminds you of your child? What's your favourite place to go for dinner? What do you have for Sunday lunch? What's your favourite dessert? Do you say plantain or plantain? What food would you take with you to a desert island?

What's your favourite type of chilli oil? What do you have for breakfast? What's the best pasta steak? What's your favourite type of chilli oil? What do you have for breakfast? What's the best pasta? What's the one thing you don't like? So if you're the sort of person who's already planning what you're having for lunch while you're eating breakfast, then this podcast is going to be right up your street. That's One Dish with me, Andy Oliver. Listen now on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, Sounds. The deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.