Woman's Hour - Mary Berry, Ketamine, New Zealand attacks

Episode Date: March 19, 2019

Every month Woman's Hour is joined by top chefs and cooks about how to perfect well loved dishes. Mary Berry takes the lead this week and tells us how to make a limoncello trifle.According to the latest government crime survey for England and Wales, ketamine, a powerful horse tranquilizer and anaesthetic is an increasingly popular drug of choice for teenagers. The proportion of 16- to 24-year-olds using the drug rose in 2017-18 from 1.2% to 3.1%, the highest figure since records of ketamine use began in 2006-07. Joining Jane to talk about what ketamine is, its effects and what every parent should be aware of is Lauren Moss, BBC South East Social Affairs & Education Correspondent who has been investigating the drug, Wendy Teasdill whose 18-year old daughter Eleanor died from taking the drug at a festival and Professor Celia Morgan, Professor of Psychopharmacology at Exeter University.After the shootings in Christchurch that left 50 people dead, New Zealand's government have agreed in principle to toughen the country's gun laws. People around the world have been talking about how they have been affected by the incident. We talk to three British Muslim women about how they're feeling and what conversations they are having with their children about what happened.Dr Anita Mitra, a Gynecologist wants to talk about the myths we all have about our vaginas. She's written a guide called 'The Gynae Geek' which she says answers questions and worries you may have about women's health. Producer: Sej Asar

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and thank you. You have downloaded the Woman's Hour podcast from Tuesday 19th March 2019. Now our programme today does include a conversation with Mary Berry, partly about her new book, partly about the rules of trifle and there are some parenting tips involving fussy eaters as part of that conversation with LaBerry as well.

She's always a very popular guest and today, no exception. Also on the podcast today, I have talked to Dr Anita Mitra, who is a gynaecologist. And she was just cantering through a whole range of questions from you, actually. And it's interesting, we didn't have time for all the questions. And one or two of you raised issues that we hadn't thought of or other people hadn't thought of. So we promise we will get to them over the coming weeks on Women's Hour and make sure you do get answers to a whole range of questions we didn't have time for. Also in this edition of the podcast, you can hear about ketamine, increasingly popular with Britain's teenagers, and it's something any parent needs to know about. So that's all on this edition of the Woman's Hour podcast.

But we started with a conversation about the impact of the horrific terrorist attack in Christchurch, New Zealand, on Muslim women in the UK. And I talked to Rabina Khan, who is a Lib Dem Tower Hamlets councillor, to Akilah Ahmed, MBE, who's an activist and entrepreneur and somebody who advises the government on Islamophobia effectively. And also to Nadia Khan, who's just 24 and the founder of a charity called The Delicate Mind, which seeks to improve mental health amongst Britain's South Asian Muslim community. First of all, I asked Nadia a little bit more about her organisation. The Delicate Mind focuses on trying to open up conversations about mental health within the South Asian Muslim community. And in order to do this, we focus on the themes of masculinity, identity and faith. So we try to work together with faith leaders from different backgrounds to open up that conversation. We also

work with children in schools, so as part of our school outreach project, to try and empower young people to have those conversations and to destigmatise mental illness within our community. Now, I know you are from Leicester, in fact. Yes. And because, well, partly, I think, because of what happened in New Zealand on Friday, you felt the need to go back home for a while.

Tell me about that. Yes. I just felt like as soon as I... So when it happened on Friday, I was in complete and utter shock. You know, seeing a place of worship becoming this... It was just, you know, shooting ground for somebody.

I just felt so unsafe. And, you know, I was frantically messaging my friends, messaging my family, you know, checking to see if they're okay. And this is something that I've been doing since that day, because it's just that fear of what if it happens again? You know, there's been some stabbings there was an incident yesterday in the Netherlands it's this weird kind of fear of you know not knowing what to expect the next day so I just felt compelled to go and be with my family because I just made me realize like life is so short and even in a place of worship we're not safe a, a place of peace. So, yeah, that's really, it really moved me. And I didn't expect it to, to be quite honest with you. But after seeing these videos and the way it was done,

I just felt like I have to be with my family. Well, Akilah and Nadia, you each have three children. I know you also have young children. In fact, Akilah, your youngest is only five. Yes. What kind of a conversation have you had at home around all these events? Well, to be honest with you, I haven't spoken to him about it. I've tried to shield him from it.

So when I woke up on Friday, I was just so shocked by the news. And when my son woke up, then I just turned off the TV because I didn't want him to hear anything about it. I didn't want him to kind of pick up on just how unsafe this world can be. And especially because, I mean, we've been here before. There's been other terrorist attacks and each time it hurts us. But this time it was in a place, a sacred place of of worship something that he's so familiar with and I didn't want him to kind of relate that to something so horrific and horrendous. It's probably relatively easy to to keep it from your youngest child but your older teenagers are well they are teenagers

and they're bound to be aware of what's going on and asking questions about it. They are and the really sort of troubling thing is is that um even though you know i switched off the tv obviously they're on social media and so they're on instagram and they've been seeing you know all these different images and you know some of it has been very touching but there's also been a lot of hatred as well and it's been horrible for them to see that and then you know you know i've spoken to them about it and what they can do and why there is that hatred online and why we're seeing much more of it. And so I said to them that, look, when you see stuff, report it and, you know, encourage your friends to do that as well. And I think that's something

that we can all do. You know, if we see something online, which is hateful, which is encouraging hate against anybody, it doesn't matter if they're Muslim you know anybody then to report it. Can I just ask about about you personally you you travel around London I know every day and you you wear the headscarf how is it for you? It's I feel vulnerable and I know lots of my friends who wear headscarf or who or people who wear women who wear the niqab also feel particularly vulnerable i think after this um incident actually i have to say i noticed a few smiles on saturday and that was really heartwarming whereas you mean people seeking you out for a bit of eye contact yeah so just passes by people who i don't know you know who are looking at me and smiled and you know it kind of took me a while to realize actually there was smiling solidarity at first I thought oh am I wearing a particularly colorful hijab today or

something but I realized no actually they're showing solidarity and that helps it does it really really helps because in the past I've I've I've had the opposite you know after the Paris attacks I had somebody who you know told me to f off and I was just standing on the side of the road I wasn't doing anything so it's been nice to see the solidarity this time yeah obviously um i apologize if anybody was offended by that language although we should say of course this is real this is what you're this is what you're facing no no no it's absolutely fine um rabina tell me about you and a similar question i i know that there's probably too much emphasis actually on the headscarf but I do think it makes life harder for Muslim women

at moments like this or around heightened tensions that we have now. What do you say to that? Well, I think initially on Friday it was my oldest daughter, she's 23, she was about to go to work and I'd read about it about the attacks and I was starting to read a lot

more getting the information and what she suddenly called out from her room and said mum can you just come to my room so I went to her room and she kept saying she was really shaking and she said have you seen this have you seen this and it was that video and when she had seen that video, she actually thought it was a video game. It couldn't, she couldn't comprehend that it was the reality of someone who had walked into a mosque and began shooting. And she was, afterwards she explained to me when she heard the music, when she heard him coming out of the car watching him, she was, she felt as though she was watching a game um one of those you know computer games and it was the fact that she kept thinking is this for real is this really happening and then when she saw halfway through she closed the book the facebook page down the you know the video that was circulating on whatsapp and i took the phone away from her because i could see that she was

shaking and she couldn't believe that this happened on a Friday, just as Nadia said. And at that point she said to me, when you go out, because I wear the scarf and my older one doesn't, she said, are you going to be okay wearing the scarf going out? And I said, we're fine, we have to be strong. Just because someone has decided to walk into a mosque and decided to begin to kill people, does that mean that you take your headscarf on?

No, it doesn't. What it shows is that we're very strong together. We have to look to our faith for peace and solidarity. And when we look around, when we see people who are extending their hands of friendship, and we can only look at people all over the world, we need to look at the Prime Minister of New Zealand. She's actually given us hope to many Muslim people all over the world. We need to look at the Prime Minister of New Zealand. She's actually given us hope to many Muslim women all over the world. For me, when someone says about the headscarf,

do you feel as though you're going to become vulnerable? Actually, yes, there is the vulnerability, but there is hope with it. Do you agree with her decision just never to mention the man's name? Absolutely, absolutely. The point is, why should we give this terrorist attacker, this murderer, that platform and mention his name when we should actually be speaking about the victims? And on that note, victims of all terror attacks,

the one that happened in Pittsburgh in the synagogue, the one in Manchester Arena, we should be talking about the victims and their families and showing solace and solidarity with them. What would you say about the contrast between the coverage, I think most notably in the Daily Mirror, they have since apologised on Saturday morning where attention was drawn to this supposedly angelic nature of the man accused of one murder and likely to be, of course, facing many more charges in New Zealand. He was, happened to be, a blonde toddler. Of course, Shamima Begum had also was reported as being a jihadi baby.

That's not correct. By definition, he can't be. He doesn't have the cognitive functions to decide, I'm a jihadi baby. That's wrong. She was 15 years old, lost three babies by the age of 19, and the way the press dehumanized her, and even the journalists, when you look at the way

she was spoken to it was it was wrong it was inhumane the the treatment that the press had towards her and then you contrast that with this boy who uh you know had issues with his uh with his life because he lost his father um i think it's just, you know, you don't need GCSE qualification to see that there is some major disparity there between the way one person was treated and the other. And obviously, when you look at what Shamima Begum did, she was essentially a housewife when she did go over to Syria. But this man was a terrorist.

He committed a crime. He killed many people, but he's still presented as this angelic baby that could have somehow been saved. But the same cannot be said for Shamima or her baby. They were just written off by the press. And I think that does play into the public fears and also causes divisions. And, you know, it is going to affect my generation. This is something that we're going to have to deal with to undo for many years to

come. And I think that's why the media institutions really need to take responsibility when they're reporting these issues. I did mention that the Mirror did apologise and they make the point both far-right and Islamist terrorists are the enemies of decent people everywhere, which I think everybody would agree with. But just to go back to Akilah's belief that there was a bit of something extra going on

when she went out and about. Rubina, would you actually ask people, we can all do this, we can all play a part in this, when we're walking down the streets of Britain over the next couple of days, look at people and smile at them, make that bit of extra contact, because it doesn't do any harm. Absolutely. And on that note, on Sunday, my mum rang me and they sent me a photo, which I actually tweeted, and it was a photo of a bouquet of flowers that had been left in Chatham Mosque and in 1975 I came to this country and there were no mosques in Chatham in Cairns my dad actually founded that particular mosque and the bouquet of flowers that had been

left there it was so heartwarming because what what the couple had left was that we stand with you we are saddened by your loss and that act of gesture that act of kindness the acts of smiles that sends a huge message to people to particularly muslim women who feel very vulnerable and i also think because the older muslim women we don't often talk about them as well they're very vulnerable their first language is often not english and i take my mother's example that sent her a message that I am not alone there are people here who are standing with me and it it in her conversation when she talked about New Zealand she talked about the first time when she came to the to the UK to live here to integrate to learn

English and the Islamophobia and the racism she endured at the time and she spoke about that and she said to now we have to look to hope and faith and to be able to come together and it's that sense of togetherness which must instil today Thank you all very much, Rabina and Akilah and Nadia, really good to spend time with you this morning and thank you very much

really enjoyed hearing what you've had to say and if you've got any thoughts on that, at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter, you can also of course follow us on Instagram and post a comment there as well Now this is an important conversation that Jenny's going to be having on Women's Hour on Thursday How and when do you talk to

children about disability? Caroline Casey is going to be on the show she's a disability activist now she is legally blind but she didn't find out that she was until she was 17 because her parents hadn't told her, their reason being that they didn't believe in labels. So do you have a disabled child?

How and when is it appropriate to talk about what that might mean for your child and for their prospects and how they're going to be able to live their life? We'd welcome your stories if you can. We really want to hear from you. Email via the website or you can tweet us at BBC Women's Hour. Mary Berry, good morning again, Mary. Always good to see you.

The latest book is Mary Berry's Quick Cooking. And this is essentially for harassed women like myself who just want to come in and fling something out that's just about edible is that fair enough that's fair enough yes and uh it's all cooking from scratch um it isn't always just coming in and doing it at once sometimes uh as i say you can do it the day before um and get things ready you know if you've got people tomorrow and you've got time tonight you can do some ahead so it's proper cooking quick now I couldn't help but notice as now the proud parent of two vegetarian teenagers that there are more veggie recipes in this book than I've been used to in your works before this is because you've you've got to do it I guess well it's it's also

the way that that we live you know I enjoy having a vegetarian meal and perhaps a bit less meat, but a little bit of everything. Would you ever go full vegan? Absolutely not. No. Is that simply an impossibility? That is absolutely an impossibility because I had a gorgeous fillet steak last night. Yes, actually, I had a nice steak last night as well. And you did as well. We weren't together, although, I i mean chance would be a fine thing um so this is for the if you like the modern household

where actually many of us are relatively time poor but we still if we are able to we like to eat decent tasty fare exactly and you want to do it um in in next to no time and produce a meal quickly that the family are going to enjoy. Now, limoncello trifle, which is today's hot topic, it's sitting next to me. Limoncello, I've had at least one memorably bad experience having consumed the stuff. It is pretty powerful. It's pretty powerful and it is absolutely delicious. You know, I'm so used to making sherry trifle and I suddenly thought, well, I like lemons an awful lot. And so it's very, very simple. It's just raspberries. And I always use

sponges, trifle sponges, rather than trifle fingers. You don't use fingers. No, I don't, because I like to split the trifle sponges. And I put lots of lemon curd in and then soak it all in wonderful limoncello and then a sort of mixture of custard and mascarpone on top. Yes, I mean, it's not for the diet at this point. It's not, but I mean,

a little, it's a little bit of everything. And this is for a special occasion when you've got no time. Now, people are actually, as it turns out, very passionate about trifle. I was tweeting last night that you were coming on the programme that this has been, in many ways, a trying couple of months,

you could even argue years, for the country and sometimes it feels like the whole world. I thought people surely can take pleasure in a simple conversation involving Mary Berry and a trifle. But no, there was still controversy. People want to ask, and first of all, you've come down very firmly on the side of the trifle sponge, not the finger. You're throwing in lemon curd and not jam.

What about jelly? That was the main talking point last night. This is a grown-up trifle. Those people who've got children very often want to just have a set jelly with raspberries or maybe they want to do an orange with a can of mandarin oranges. This is a grown-up trifle and it certainly has no jelly in. So adults wouldn't eat a trifle with jelly in. We just need to nail down the...

I think adults can eat whatever they like. But this one, if you make it with jelly, it wouldn't be so quick. I see. This is a quick trifle. Yeah, and this is all about speed. OK. What would you do or what did you do in the past with small children and fussy eating? Because this is something that preoccupies the parents of young children a lot.

If a child just will only eat green food, won't eat green food, doesn't like bits of food touching other bits of food, what do you do about things like that? Well, I brought up our lot to have a little bit of everything and they have to try it. And, you know, I'm not always going to do peas, which they like best. And so I introduce them to all different things. And don't make a fuss if they won't have it at that time, because, I mean, many children will start by disliking something because they don't like the texture. So don't push it on them. Bring it back gently in a couple of years time or whatever.

I think many of us who grew up in the 70s are slightly haunted by memories of being made to finish food. What do you think of that? I think that if you give the child the amount of food that you think they're going to eat it's much better not to leave it on

the side. I don't like things left on the plate. I'd rather, if it's left in the dish, you can use it the next day or incorporate it in something else. But if it's left on the plate and you scrape it and you put it in the bin, that is wrong. And it's gone, isn't it? You can't make use of it. And also don't over, I think you're right, don't over face small children. Just give them a little and they might polish off the lot and then have more. And also, I think you're right, don't over-face small children. Just give them a little and they might polish off the lot and then have more. And also, don't over-face big children. I think, again, I don't like things left. No, okay.

I don't know why you and I aren't just running the world, Mary. I think things would be a lot easier. You were at, on the telly last night, in your new BBC Two show, you were at Camp Bestival and I gather this was the first time you'd been to a music festival. It certainly is the first time, yes. They're quite noisy because my husband hadn't seen it. And he said, it's quite noisy. Did you really do that? He said, more or less, I'm glad I wasn't there.

But I mean, I think he looked like the look of all the steaks and things. And he thought that Rick Ashley was terribly good to make muffins because they were very nice, healthy muffins. And he was a great sport. Yes, he was. He does seem like a lovely lad, actually, Rick Astley. And did you really play the drums? I really did because he made muffins with me, which is totally out of his comfort zone. And then he sort of sprang it on me

and I thought, well, in for a penny, in for a pound. And I went up and did it. There were 23,000 in the audience and actually I was petrified but somehow the adrenaline goes and you have his smiling face and his arm around the back of you you do your best but never ever again I imagine it's quite good if you are frustrated and life's getting you down a good old bash on a set of drums I'd rather not again. You won't be doing it again.

All these things. I mean, I think of Claudia doing that 24-hour dance. She, I'm sure, feels never again I've done it. Yeah, I only ask because I know Glastonbury are looking for a big headliner. Hard luck. Not you? Not me. OK. Mary Berry has just turned down the opportunity to headline at Glastonbury this summer. That's a Woman's Hour exclusive.

Right. I think we just need to... Can I just take a big slurp of the trifle? Is it going to make a satisfying noise? There's a big spoon for you there. We've pulled in all the health and safety forms here. And I'm about in front of a gynaecologist who's just arrived for our next item. There's another bowl for her.

Come on. We always have a gynaecologist standing by when I'm about to eat a trifle. It's just something the BBC insists item. There's another bowl for her. We always have a gynaecologist standing by when I'm about to eat a trifle. It's just something the BBC insists on. And indeed my people. Right. Okay. Let's just...

Oh, I was hoping it would make a... Slob. A squidgy slob. It is real. Slightly flatulent noise. Oh, it's absolutely real. Look at that. Anita, the gynaecologist,

what do you think of that? That looks incredible. Yeah. And I'm sure it's about to taste incredible. Mary, thank you very much. By the way, just a quick question. I know you think of that? That looks incredible. Yeah, and I'm sure it's about to taste incredible. Mary, thank you very much. By the way, just a quick question. I know you approve of, just stretching from my spoon,

you approve of the new Bake Off, don't you? You've watched it and you think it's all right. I have, and I think Prue's doing, you know, when somebody takes on what you do, you think, if I was choosing someone, I would have chosen Prue. I think she's great for it. Very colourful, good knowledge.

And it's such a wonderful format. Yeah, but she doesn't say soggy bottom. Well, maybe not. She's got her own terms. Mary, thank you very much. Good to see you. And Quick Cooking is the name of the new book, isn't it? That's right.

Lovely. Thank you very much, Mary. Thank you. I'll just have a quick... I know we'll get complaints completely predictably, that is lovely I'm not keen on raspberries

but in that combo I'll go with them, thank you very much Mary So Dr Anita Mitra is an NHS obstetrician and gynaecologist, welcome Anita author of The Gynae Geek and this is all about dispelling myths and getting people to understand their own bodies. And it's something to be fair over the

years, Women's Hour has discussed a fair bit. I think we talked last year about that phenomenal book, The Wonder Down Under. This is really about some of the medical issues that can and do arise in women, in vulvas, vaginas and everywhere else. I just want to read some of the questions we've had. But before I do that, your book starts, your book is called The Gynae Geek, and it starts with a really important story about a woman who was just having the most horrific periods. Tell me about that.

Yeah, so I mean, well, I think women are really ahead of the game when it comes to talking about this kind of thing. But lots of women don't realise the kind of things that other women can go through. And that's why I started the book with the story. So it's a story about a lady who's had really torrential periods for 20 years. And I met her in the A&E department when she was really unwell because of the bleeding that she'd been having. Because if you bleed really heavily, really regularly, it is bad for you, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah. So she was very anemic. so that meant that she needed several blood transfusions.

And it was quite interesting because she had had this problem for such a long time. And when they sort of asked her, why have you not seen a doctor about this before? She said, to start with, she just thought that it was normal. And I think that is a result of the fact that we don't talk about our period. So the period that you have can seemingly be normal. And so that's one of the reasons why we need to get the conversation started. But also when she realised that it probably wasn't normal, she was too afraid and embarrassed to go and speak to her GP about it. So that really led to her really suffering and having such a poor quality of life for quite

a number of years. Yeah, because in her case, she was sitting at home using towels to stem the flow of blood. Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, people are horrified when they hear the story. And some people have said, you've made this up. And I really absolutely have not made the story up. Let's go to the questions from the listeners. This listener says, is it normal to experience chronic period pain? I've had to take the mini pill to stop my period so I can work without needing time off. What do you say to that? Yeah, so I think period pain is another thing that people tend to put up with. And it doesn't have to be something you put up with.

It's normal to get some period pain. And it's because your womb has to squeeze to get the blood out. And you make lots of chemicals that actually make that happen. And it's not unsafe to take medication. So things like paracetamol, ibuprofen, simple things over the counter, that's absolutely fine. But I really think if you're clock watching, thinking, when can I take that next tablet? That is a sign that maybe there might be something that's underlying that could warrant going to speak to someone about it. But the thing is, you don't have to make that decision as to whether it's normal or abnormal.

You just need to go and speak to a doctor and just have a conversation about it and see what else might be going on and see what we might be able to do about it. It's not something you have to put up with. Does having children vaginally make it looser or change its shape? Asked this listener. I found that after my two tampons became uncomfortable,

I now use a menstrual cup. Okay, that's interesting. So your vagina will change a little bit. It's very elastic and very stretchy. It shouldn't change entirely, but most people who've had babies vaginally will say that their vagina does feel quite different. I can't see how it couldn't feel different. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's had a big job to do, hasn't it? But if tampons feel different, then it's difficult to say really without sort of examining the person.

But also it's interesting how she brings up menstrual cups. They're becoming really popular these days. And that's absolutely fine if you feel that you prefer those now. One of the myths that you bust in your book is that there is no limit on how often you can take the morning after pill. Yes. Explain why you felt that was important to mention. I think there's really a lot of confusion about the morning after pill.

I mean, one of the stories I tell in the book is about a girl who was living in central London and she didn't even know it existed. So I think it's really important to put it out there. But I think that there are lots of misconceptions and people think it's something that's dangerous to take or it makes you infertile. And that's not the case. But if you are taking it several times, then you might need to think about if you want to look at more long term contraception that's going to be more effective and better than taking the pill all the time. Now, this is an interesting question, which we have discussed on the programme before, but it's well worth repeating. Why has my clitoris disappeared it's shrunk is it due to total hysterectomy and five years of tamoxifen post breast cancer it makes arousal really slow is there any appropriate treatment yeah that's

that's a that's something that we come across quite often people find that their body does change after taking certain medications and particularly after going through the menopause. The hysterectomy probably would not be so much of a contributing factor in terms of we don't do anything to the clitoris when we do a hysterectomy regardless of how we do it but certainly taking things like tamoxifen and going through the menopause will certainly change the hormones and I think that we need to increase the awareness that changing hormones will change the architecture in the vulva and vagina and also how it reacts in terms of the moisturisation and irritation and those kind of things. Is it actually possible for your clitoris to disappear? It wouldn't disappear completely, but the surrounding it yes will change as you go through the menopause and also certain chronic skin conditions can also mean that the there is

a change in the way the skin is and and can change the location of the clitoris almost. Here's another question it's not directly about vaginas but UTIs I already know to wee after sex but even so I almost constantly have a UTI which causes big sleep problems and well-being issues, not surprisingly. I've had antibiotics before, but it keeps reoccurring. And I know at least three other people with the same problem. Recurrent UTIs can be a problem. It's worth checking that it is definitely a UTI and that there's an actual infection there. And that it's not actually cystitis, which is more of a chronic irritation of the bladder. If that's something that's happening,

then there's quite a lot of evidence coming out these days about the use of probiotics, which I think is quite interesting. And that's using bacteria that you take orally, and that can actually be helpful. There's a certain kind for women that are promoted, and I do think there's quite a lot of evidence around them. So two particular species being Lactobacillus rhamnosus and ruteri, that's definitely something worth looking into. And this is a common question, and it's definitely worth doing. I'd like to know what impact hair removal has on vaginal health, if any.

I advocate women's choice in how they treat their pubic hair, but I do feel that there is a lack of concrete and trustworthy information Vaginal health, if any. I advocate women's choice in how they treat their pubic hair, but I do feel that there is a lack of concrete and trustworthy information on how that might affect vaginal health. Definitely. Oh, gosh, this is something I see all the time in clinic. And lots of people saying, oh, I'm really sorry, I haven't shaved or waxed. You absolutely don't need to. And actually, there's no health benefit to doing that. Lots of people say they feel cleaner,

but there's no evidence to show it reduces the risk of infections or anything in terms of health outcomes. Can I ask your relative you're a young woman aren't you? How old are you Anita? 33. Right so when as long as you've been practicing pornography and accessibility to it has been a massive thing and it's having a huge impact in places like this. It is definitely. I mean a few years ago I did think the bush was coming back but no I think everyone is really removing their hair and that is probably from the media and pornography as well definitely has played a role in that. What about various creams and things that are prescribed for vaginal health? You only have to

go to very mainstream chemist to see all this stuff available. Should you use any of that? No, so if it's been prescribed, that's one thing. But if it's something you're buying over the counter, and I really don't think there's any purpose for any of these things, and it's quite a persuasive marketing that makes women feel that they need to use them.

In a sense, it's the old-school misogyny about women smelling. Oh, definitely, definitely. And the thing is that I've seen plenty of patients who've been using them and they find that they have a lot of irritation as a result. Or if they're using it because of irritation, they find that it makes it worse. And I tell them to stop and they all come back and say, I feel much better now. I've never had anybody who's told me a product that's actually made any kind of irritation better. I think in a sense, this program in areas like this is preaching to the converted but you were

telling me earlier that you were doing an antenatal clinic yesterday and a woman did ask about how she looked, how her vulva presented because she wasn't happy with in her case her episiotomy scar. Absolutely I think it's a massive problem because I think that people are talking more about vulvas these days and it's great, but then I think that people are maybe having an unrealistic expectation of what a vulva should look like, again, possibly from the pornography industry. And I think that we need to be clear that everyone's vulva looks completely different

and there's very few people who need a labiaplasty. The only people who would ever, you know, be recommended to have that kind of thing is if there is a real discomfort and, you know, real problem in terms of irritation, but not for appearance. And I think that we need to get people looking at pictures of other people's vulvas more. And I think the vulva gallery is a really great social media account, which has loads of really good pictures for people to just have an awareness of what Evolver does really look like. Good idea. A listener asks, how do you know if you have a prolapse? This is on Twitter. OK, so people can tend to find a fullness down below.

Can you just, what does it do? You'd feel it, you'd see it? So some people say they have the sensation that there's something in the vagina. It's always described in books as like a golf ball ball but also it can be a particular problem when you're going to the toilet and particularly if you're having your bowels open really straining it something can be you have a feeling that there's something coming down and so it's something if you are worried about it's worth going to have someone examine you properly because there's several different kinds of prolapse that you can have and it very much depends on what kind of symptoms you're having as to what kind of symptoms you're having

as to what kind of treatment you can be offered. You're also very big in the book on diet and actually on constipation because constipation is an issue for gynaecological health, which I hadn't really made that link. Absolutely, yeah. So, I mean, we always talk about people who have prolapse as being more likely to be people who are constipated or people who lift heavy weights

because both of those things actually increase the strain that you put on the pelvic floor. So if you're chronically constipated then that can obviously have an impact on your pelvic floor strength. But also it's really important for us to be having regular bowel movement so that we're able to get rid of excess oestrogen in our body. That's one of the ways that our body is able to remove it through the liver and then also through the bowels. So that's one of the ways that our body is able to um to remove it um through the liver and then also through the bowels so that's something really important um to really make sure people are not constipated yeah get your leafy greens absolutely and lots of water as well yeah water is important coffee apparently doesn't count does it no if only flat white counted for anything

uh anita mitra thank you very much thank you very much thanks for being so so frank and plain speaking and the book is called The Gynae Geek. It is a no-nonsense guide to your vaginal and vulval health care. I think that's very fair to say. Thank you. Thank you so much. Now, according to the latest government crime survey for England and Wales, ketamine is an increasingly popular drug of choice for teenagers. The proportion of 16 to 24-year-olds using it rose in 2017 to 18 from 1.2 to 3.1

percent and that's the highest figure since records began in 2006 to 7. So we'll talk in a moment to Lauren Moss who is BBC South East social affairs and education correspondent. Welcome to you Lauren. She's been investigating the drug. Wendy Teasdale is here. And Wendy, good morning to you. Horrendously, your 18-year-old daughter, Eleanor, died after taking ketamine at a festival. I'm so sorry to hear about that. We'll talk more in a moment or two. But also with us, Professor Celia Morgan, who's Professor of Psychopharmacology at the University of Exeter. So Celia, very simply, what is ketamine? So, good morning. Ketamine's a type of drug known as a dissociative anaesthetic. So it was originally developed as an anaesthetic drug. And the drug company that developed it were at first really impressed by the fact it's got very strong

analgesic effects. And unlike any other anaesthetics, it doesn't slow your breathing and your heart rate. But with increasing clinical experience with ketamine, people notice that people are coming around from ketamine anaesthesia, reporting a lot of out-of-body experiences, hallucinations, and thus limited the widespread clinical use of the drug. Although it's still used today in developing countries in anaesthesia and in chronic pain. When did you first become aware of it as a recreational drug, so-called? it's still used today in developing countries in anaesthesia and in chronic pain. When did you first become aware of it as a recreational drug, so-called? So I think, I mean, the first reports came out, so ketamine was developed back in the 60s,

and there were reports earlier in the 70s, but it was very, very minor levels of use, and amongst medical professionals initially who'd heard about the drug through its clinical use. But then in the UK, I think its use first emerged in the 90s. And to start with, it was used as an adulterant in ecstasy tablets at raves. So people used to cut ecstasy tablets with it. And ketamine had the kind of reputation nobody wanted to take ketamine. And some people stopped doing ecstasy tablets because they were

worried about them being cut with ketamine but something changed I think in the early 2000s and it's people started to use the drug on its own but again it was very confined to subcultures so particularly the gay scene and and travelers sort of cultures but yeah then it became a bit more widespread at At that stage, it was controlled under the Medicines Act, which controls drugs for medical use, but it wasn't under the Misuse of Drugs Act. But in 2006, the government classified it as a Class C substance at first. And that had a kind of an opposite effect, as I think they hoped for, and use increased. So people perhaps heard about the

drug more being a licit substance yeah it is now a class b drug isn't it yeah so that changed in 2014 and then and the and the use initially dropped off a bit so um as the supply routes they dried up after becoming a class b substance but but yeah over the past couple of years its use seems to have increased dramatically in the UK. Wendy, can you take us through what happened to your daughter? She was at a music festival, which so many teenagers go. Yes, she was at Boomtown Festival working for Oxfam as a steward. She'd done her first shift with her friend. And they were walking around. She had a can of lager and they saw the fairground

and decided they'd like to go on, I don't know, whirly things. Went back to the tent, first of all, to take some ketamine. Now, knowing what I now know about ketamine, I realise she can't have known an awful lot about it because to go on a fairground ride after taking ketamine seems a strange choice, because, as Celia said, it's dissociative, and actually they took the ketamine and you lose, it depends how much you take, I suppose, but she lost the use of her limbs. She lay down.

She never woke up. That was what happened. She died in some disassociative, happy state, I suppose, leaving us all in confusion. I'm so sorry. I mean, this is absolutely appalling, obviously, for you and for the rest of your family. I gather, though, the message you're keen to impart is that you shouldn't, no parent can afford to be complacent here

and just think, oh, well, my child wouldn't do that. Absolutely. I had no idea. She was always such an open person as well. I could talk to her about pretty well anything. We always did. We've always had very open discussions in our family around the kitchen table about anything. And it was, in fact, it turns out the third time she'd taken it, she wasn't a habitual user.

One key component was that she had it in conjunction with the alcohol which she consumed already. That was an unknown factor. I didn't know anything about ketamine. I could never have imagined my daughter would take ketamine to me. That was just a really stupid thing to do. But apparently not. It's a normal thing. So, yes, it was a shock, a real shock. And I thought I knew my daughter. But all children or any young people, you know, young people from 14 upwards we're hearing are liable to do things and they don't want to tell their parents. Of course. And Lauren, you, I know, bought ketamine,

you were able to buy it. Was it in any way difficult to get hold of? No, not at all. And I think that's the worrying thing about this, especially how accessible it is. I've spoken to young people who've told me they're using it increasingly at parties, recreationally, and the effects last for about an hour. So it's very difficult for people to know that someone is using it. And they told me that they're buying it on the dark net, which is sort of a backdoor access into the internet that we don't see, that we don't use on a regular basis. And once you're shown how to do that, it is quite easy to do I was shown and I had discussions with BBC legal teams and editorial teams and so on to get permission to do this

for 10 pounds I was able to buy some ketamine it was delivered to me in the post virtually untraceable and I was also sent a handful of tablets which I didn't order and I took all of this to be tested in a laboratory in London and they told me that in fact it was ketamine like I had ordered. I had also been sent some class A MDMA or ecstasy tablets as well sort of as a bonus or an incentive really to use that dealer and it's you know it's staggeringly worrying. People don't know what they're taking. We will have more information available in the Women's App Parenting podcast which in this case is going to be available next week so we'll record more on this topic because it's so important. But very briefly, Celia, if you can, let's be clear about this. It's a Class B drug. It is illegal.

But Celia, if you're the parent of perhaps somebody who's going to their first festival this summer or about to go to uni, what is the practical advice about ketamine use? Well, I think perhaps the most important thing is that if you're going to take ketamine you have someone with you who's not taking it because the drug's so dissociative it rends you really vulnerable to accidents or things like sexual assault

also the key advice with any drug I think is to take a very very small amount and people who use other recreational drugs like cocaine often take a similar amount of ketamine, but ketamine is much, much stronger. So just urge them to take a much smaller amount than they would of any other recreational drug. Don't do things like lock yourself in a toilet cubicle, because if you do become completely dissociated and lose consciousness, then no one will be able to help you.

And I think those are the key things. And obviously don't drink alcohol. No. Or eat beforehand because you'll be much more likely to vomit. Professor Celia Morgan, Lauren Moss, the BBC's South East Social Affairs and Education correspondent. And you also heard from Wendy Teasdale, who'd been through that absolutely horrific experience

involving her daughter and her tragic death at that music festival and if you want to know more about that subject make sure you subscribe to the Women's Hour Parenting podcast that will be available next week and there'll be more on the issue of ketamine and the sort of practical advice you might give your teenagers. So I'm delighted to say that Nadia and Rubina and Akilah are still with me. And I just want to put some points to you actually from the listeners, if that's right, that came in today. And actually, there's one criticism and it's partly my own fault, actually, for not challenging it at the time. So just let me put the point made by both Kiri

and by Mara on Twitter. Describing Begum as a housewife was disingenuous and unhelpful, says Kiri. And Mara says, I thought the conversation you had about Muslim women today was very important, but the message was undermined by the unchallenged statement that Shamima Begum was a housewife. In fact, she was an active supporter of a group which was beheading innocent hostages and posting the videos online. So let me just put that point to you and I did include myself in the criticism there because if I'd had more time I would have picked up on that but I didn't so let's get that out there what would you say about that because I see what the listeners are saying but I also think you can make a case for Shamima Begum

as a vulnerable teenage girl so Rubinaena, what would you say about that? When this first came out, and do you remember, I come from the borough where Shamima Begum came from. Shamima Begum was 15 years old, and we also know that over the internet a lot of grooming takes place. We also know that that kind of grooming radicalises young Muslim women, and particularly young Muslim women. What we also have to do is look at this in a wider context.

And I raised this at the last full council meeting. One of the things that concerns me is that we have to see Shamima as a 15-year-old young girl at the time when she made the decision to go to Syria. We now have to judge her on the basis of a young woman who is 19 and she has had three children. When she first did those interviews and when her story first broke, what was evident was that there was her wanting to come back to this country. But what was very particularly interesting, which was disturbing, was that she didn't seem to have regret over the issue of joining ISIS. And I

think that we have to keep that in mind. But we also don't have to have regret over the issue of joining ISIS. And I think that we have to keep that in mind. But we also don't have to bear in mind the circumstances and the place in which she was giving that interview, surrounded by... Absolutely, absolutely. I agree with you on that point as well. But we also have to remember that at the time when her citizenship was revoked, in actual fact, we made her stateless. And I think one of the important things is we shouldn't be making someone stateless like that. What we should be doing, she has a right to come back to this country, but she also has to face the consequences of her

actions. This is a comment, Akilah, from a man, a listener, a male listener who describes himself, and this is his description i'm big tall bearded chap and i might make anybody feel uncomfortable if i walk about grinning at everyone i meet now chris is a i think it's a genuine question this he was taking up my point and all of all of our points really that it would be nice if people were just a bit more pleasant on the highways and byways of britain as we all go about our legitimate business he's actually saying if he sees a lady in a hijab he's not sure they would welcome him smiling at them so yeah he's concerned I think this comes from a genuine place he's concerned yeah what what's your advice to Chris well I think

he's making a good point but I think you know there are other ways to show solidarity you know one way is to smile at somebody who you don't know, but looks Muslim on the street. Another way is to reach out to any friends you might have who might be Muslim or work colleagues. Or maybe, as we've seen other people do, reach out to local mosques and kind of community centres and religious centres. So or even just on social media, putting out, you know, Facebook status or, you know, something on Twitter or, you know facebook status or you know something on twitter or you know something around solidarity i think that's you know all of these ways can really show people that you are genuine and you're you know showing solidarity you want to support muslim people during this really vulnerable time yes um i think he was really also thinking just about the whole i mean you'd already the two of you happen to wear the hijab So you had talked about the fact that you are feeling slightly different.

Your daughter was concerned about you going out, Rubina. And he's just saying, I want, I do want to help. I want to be one of those people, you know, I'm all right and I'm with you, but I don't know how to conduct myself. I would say to him, keep smiling. And I'd say that because I've got a cousin who's very, tall and he's bearded and he's very very big and he would like to smile at you know non-Muslim people and he he carries out and he's very friendly and I have to say on Saturday I went to Watney Market which is I mean I'm the elected member in Shadwell and there was a an old East End guy and I often see him and he said all right love how are you you feeling okay and he said alright love, how are you? You feeling okay? And he said to me, look if Hitler

couldn't kill us through the Blitz I tell you now we can stand up to all these terrorists. And I think that just sends even a bigger message and he was tall as well. Yeah that's Britain for you though isn't it? I mean that's actually... Good old East End. Well no it is actually and I'm all for it. I mean we've had an email here from

a woman saying she lives in Windermere and she was in London, I think, last week on the Tube and nobody was smiling or making eye contact. Well, let me tell you, Louise, nobody ever does on the Tube, with a couple of exceptions. But it doesn't mean that London is necessarily unfriendly.

I think anywhere can be unfriendly, frankly. Of course, even Windermere, I dare suggest, might occasionally be unfriendly. So, Nadia, even Windermere, I dare suggest, might occasionally be unfriendly. So Nadia, does Leicester differ in any way? I mean, is it, what would you say about the difference between Leicester and going around in London? Do you feel safer in Leicester? I feel, I do feel safer in Leicester. I feel as though there isn't that much sort of that magnifying glass through which we look at every single issue in Leicester as there is in London. And, you know, the sheer amount of people that you have in comparison to Leicester is quite low.

And so in that sense, I don't feel like, you know, I'm going to have to watch out for a lot of people in terms of, you know, looking where I'm going to see if somebody's going to do anything to me. And London also does have that reputation, especially at the moment, of not being a particularly safe city. And then added to that, when you have these kinds of issues, it does make you feel a little bit more vulnerable. So I think, yeah, from my perspective, I felt much, much more safer in Leicester than I did in London after these incidents. And what about the future? We are due, well, you tell me how you think things are going to unfold over the next couple of weeks. Because Britain, you sense, is going through a time of change.

Things are all a bit frantic, aren't they? We are going through a time of change, but I do see faith communities coming together and supporting one another during this time. And I've seen it, you know, my Sikh friends, my Jewish friends, you know, that real sense of solidarity is also there. And whilst I think that, you know, you are going to have some spike in hate crimes as a result of this issue. I also feel as though these issues are going to spark conversations, important constructive conversations between communities, between media outlets, between local government, to try and repair some of the damage that has been done

through poor rhetoric about minority communities. So I actually am quite hopeful about the future. And I think we need that solidarity more than ever as we're going through this uncertain period in terms of politically, socially as well. And perhaps something like this can make us kind of wake up and, you know, people take responsibility for some of the comments that they've made to try and build that community cohesion, which we desperately need. Well, I hope this doesn't sound incredibly crass, but one of the people who does appear to unite Britain is Mary Berry. I can't believe I've just said that, but I know I always have my photograph taken with Mary whenever she comes in. But Mary is the one who does impress my kids, which is why I always make sure there's an image of me and Mary to take home.

And I know that all three of you were also excited that Mary was in. We were. We were. Yeah, OK. She's lovely. Now, I don't know whether you're Trifle fans, but a lot of listeners have taken issue with the whole business about jelly. This listener says, I'm enjoying Mary's Trifle tips, but I think we might disagree on the issue of jelly and trifle for adults in my house no jelly equals no trifle another listener was just horrified at my eating noises if you must eat on air leave out the drain cleaner sound effects i actually switched off

wow well i don't know i mean that's awful um feeling the squeeze tweets to say my mom just asked if i wanted her trifle bowls i said probably not perhaps i was being hasty you were because every home needs a trifle bowl or maybe two um and i said lemon cello and anna who's italian says jane it's lemon chillo and please pronounce all the consonants in mascapone pedantic no i'm just italian and you could all try a bit harder okay so i'm going to work on trying harder and well i think the whole of britain is going to work on trying harder over the next couple of months and possibly years um fantastic to have you all with us this morning thank you ak, Akilah and Rubina and Nadia.

Thanks for coming on Woman's Hour. And Jenny is here tomorrow and I'm back on Friday. Beyond Today is the daily podcast from Radio 4. It asks one big question about one big story in the news and beyond. Just how big is Netflix? Why are young people getting lost in the system? I'm Tina Dehealy. I'm Matthew Price.

And along with a team of curious producers, Why are young people getting lost in the system? I'm Tina Dehealy. I'm Matthew Price. And along with a team of curious producers, we are searching for answers that change the way we see the world. I was actually quite shocked by how many people this issue affects. So we're doing stories about technology, about identity. Are you trying to look black? No, I am not trying to look black. Power, where power lies, how it's changing. And every weekday we speak to the smartest people in the BBC and beyond.

It's basically what I've been wanting to do since I was little, to talk about business and economics. And the stories started forming in my head. That's what I've learned. It's okay to feel. Subscribe to us on BBC Sounds. And join in on the hashtag Beyond Today. every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

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