Woman's Hour - Mary Earps' SPOTY win, Women's Super League founder Kelly Simmons, Pregnancy sickness

Episode Date: December 20, 2023

England goalkeeper Mary Earps has been voted BBC Sports Personality of the Year. She was a big part of the Lionesses' win at the Euros in 2022 and was named goalkeeper of the tournament in this year's World Cup. But back in 2019 she was ready to quit the game. Jessica Creighton speaks to Rebecca Myers from the The Sunday Times about Earps' bumpy road to success.Kelly Simmons has recently left the Football Association after 32 years with the organisation. Best known for her time as Director of the Women’s Professional Game, Kelly joins Jessica to discuss her long career and the future of the Women’s Super League which she helped to launch and transform.A breakthrough on why women get pregnancy sickness could open the way to finding a cure. Scientists have discovered a hormone that causes nausea and vomiting in pregnant women, sometimes to the extent that they get Hyperemesis Gravidarum – the most severe form of sickness often resulting in hospitalisation. Professor of Clinical Biochemistry and Medicine at Cambridge University Sir Stephen O’Rahilly and CEO of the charity Pregnancy Sickness Support Charlotte Howden join Jessica to discuss the implications of this discovery.Could planning for a simpler, more realistic January be the best way to help your mental health this Christmas? Author and psychological decluttering expert Cathy Madavan and clinical psychologist Dr Emma Hepburn join Jessica to discuss why less might mean more as we move into the new year.'Go to the front line yourself - and die'. Those are the reported words of the wives and girlfriends of Russian soldiers to Vladimir Putin, who they are addressing on a Telegram channel called The Way Home. According to UK estimates, 300,000 military personnel from Russia have died during the war in Ukraine. Jessica gets insights from Dr Jenny Mathers from the Department of International Politics at Aberystwyth University.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Welcome to the programme. Great to have you with us on this Wednesday morning. Now, Mary Earp's England goalkeeper is back in the news today after being voted the BBC Sports Personality of the Year. And it caps off a really remarkable couple of years for her. But her road to success wasn't necessarily straightforward. In 2019, she was considering quitting football altogether. Now, four years later, she is lifting one of sport's most prestigious trophies, and it's that subject that I'd like to get your thoughts on this morning.

Has there ever been a time where you thought you were done with something, but you've come back stronger, maybe even defied your own expectations? It doesn't have to be sport. It can be absolutely anything from work, from life to family matters. Text the programme on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. You can get in contact as well on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. You can email us through our website. And don't forget, you can also send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note. It'd be good to hear your voices

on 03700 100 444. Do watch out for those data charges. You may want to use Wi-Fi if you can. And that seems to be the running theme with our guests this morning, that sense of fighting against the odds. Few women know more about that than one of my guests this morning, who is Kelly Simmons. She is one of the most senior women in football and helped transform the women's game from being largely ignored to being the biggest female sport in this country. She's also a big part of the reason why the England women's team were able to become European champions. How did she do it? We'll get into that and much more as Keri joins me in the studio a little bit later. Also this morning, morning sickness. It's something many of you will have experienced or of course know someone who's been through it.

But for some women, pregnancy sickness can be much more extreme. We'll be speaking to a woman fighting to raise awareness about the debilitating condition hyperemesis gravidarum and how a recent breakthrough in research could be a lifeline for so many women and also christmas it's not even here yet but you are already might be feeling a little bit exhausted by it how can you stay sane and look ahead to january without that inevitable feeling of dread i can't wait to hear some of the tips that we've got coming up for you. We're going to give you some practical tips so that you can manage that period in the best way possible. But now, as I mentioned,

women's football, once again, in the headlines as England goalkeeper Mary Earps was voted the BBC's Sports Personality of the Year. Now, she was a big part of the Lionesses winning the European Championships last year and then reaching the World Cup final in the summer just gone, winning the award for goalkeeper

of the tournament, no less. Women are enjoying a bit of a run of success at Spotty, as it happens, with Earps being the third woman in a row to win the award, following her teammate Beth Mead last year and the tennis champion Emma Raducanu back in 2021. But let's hear first from Mary in her acceptance speech last night on just how much this award means to her. Thank you very much. I'm very honoured and humbled for me. I feel like this is, you know, the ultimate all-round sporting accolade. And I think us as Lionesses and obviously United as well we've had an incredible couple of years but this is just yeah wow um it's not been the easiest journey um and I definitely wouldn't be where I am today without a number of incredible people in my corner so finally I just want to say

thank you to them I'm so glad that I can bring some of my loved ones with me today I'm not going to look at them directly in the eye because that will get a bit much. And who've been with me through the really, really not so great times. And yeah, the last two years have been absolutely unbelievable. Yeah, that was Mary Earp's England goalkeeper after winning spotty last night. She sounded a bit overwhelmed at times. Let's discuss the significance of that win, though. I'm joined by Rebecca Myers from the Sunday Times. Good morning, Rebecca.

Good morning. Hi. Great to have you on. Now, I was watching, as I'm sure you were as well. What is it about Mary Earps that led her to be voted spotty winner last night, do you think? Yeah, I mean, I'm personally delighted because I'm such a huge fan of of Mary's just so many people are yeah exactly and I think that's it you know some people have said well they didn't win the world cup but firstly on a personal level she did win the golden glove as you mentioned which is the highest accolade she can get in her in her field but also you know not to be too cheesy but she won our hearts you know she won us all over she she sort of you know she really won the hearts of she won our hearts you know she won us all over she she sort

of you know she really won the hearts of people who'd never really seen women's football before of people who were you know big women's football fans of kids I mean what I would have given to have Mary Earps as a role model when I was a young girl you know and I think that's kind of what sports personality should be about is this all-rounded win that speaks to so much more than just that performance on the pitch, which was also brilliant. It was. And we heard her speaking in her acceptance speech about the challenging times that she's had in her career. Now, it was back in 2019, wasn't it, that she was considering quitting football altogether. Just tell us about her journey to the top and the rough patches that she's had to go through.

Yeah, I think we forget that, you know, because she has been such a kind of cult hero in the past, you know, couple of years and been such a, you know, impressive figure. We forget that it really wasn't that long ago that she, you know, she said herself, she was thinking of just giving up football completely, possibly. You know, I covered the 2019 World Cup in France and she was third choice goalkeeper then you know she said there was a point in 2020 she said in an interview recently where four other goalkeepers were chosen ahead of her for England so you know she very recently she has not been the first choice goalie and then to come on you know first in the Euros and then again this year and just step into that role with all that self-doubt she must have had. It is quite amazing when you think about it. So brave.

And I think, you know, we often don't celebrate goalkeepers in this way. You know, you sort of tend to find that they get the press when they miss that save. But to see someone who, you know, has been so brave, has stepped up at those moments after having, you know, a point in her career where she thought maybe I've just got to do something totally different and, you know, retrain is amazing. And she's done it and she's done it with flying colours. And you mentioned that bravery that she showed. I wonder about her stepping up and challenging Nike when they said they weren't going to sell the goalkeeper jerseys. She said, actually, I think there's demand for this. And I think, actually, people do want to buy it. Can you change your mind? And she actually managed to get that decision reversed, didn't she? Yeah, talk about a win as well there.

I mean, again, such a huge, brave and kind of risky thing to do. Like, you know, women's footballers increasingly earn you know good money from sponsorship deals from working with big brands um they you know they still earn obviously a lot less than the men as we know but they have that potential now to earn with big brands but for her to then step up on the world stage and address you know one of the biggest brands she could possibly work with and say this this is not good enough. It was absolutely amazing and not something we see very often. She won, you know, they reversed that decision and it sold out in five minutes. So celebrating for her victories, that was certainly one of them.

If that's not proving a point, I don't know what is, selling out in five minutes. Now, look, Rebecca, this is the second female footballer to win Spotty in a row after Beth Mead last year. What does this tell us about the growth of the women's game and how popular it's becoming? Yeah, I think it really speaks to how it's captured our imaginations, actually, because for me, that's often what Spotty represents is that idea that, you know, it's quite wide ranging. It covers obviously all the sports that are out there. So for two years in a row to have women footballers winning the main award is quite amazing and um you mentioned obviously Emma Raducanu before that but before that you know we hadn't had a

woman who'd won spotty I think since 2006 so about 15 years without any women winning so we sort of think well we've had three women in a work in a row that's brilliant but we take for granted that for you know more than a decade we didn't see any women winning spotty at all so it's it's huge for women's football but it's also huge for female athletes to be in the spotlight in this way now in a way that we do brilliantly just take for granted yeah um I agree and I I feel like it's so Mary Ups is really making goalkeeping cool. And I bet there's a whole generation of younger girls and younger boys wanting to emulate Mary Earps now and possibly become goalkeepers. When before everyone just wanted to be a striker and score all the goals. Rebecca Myers from the Sunday Times. Thank you so much for coming on to Women's Hour. Great to get your thoughts there.

Now, Kelly Simmons. She may be the biggest name in football that you've never heard of Kelly joined football's governing body the Football Association in 1991 and went on to become the director of the Women's Professional Game She was instrumental in masterminding the success of one of the biggest women's leagues

in the world, the Women's Super League But after 32 years Kelly has now left the FA so it's the end of an era, not just for Kelly, but for women's football too, as the FA hands over control of the Women's Super League to an independent organisation, a league that she often referred to as her baby. Kelly joins me in the studio. You're giggling as I say that, Kelly. It's your first broadcast interview since stepping away from the FA good morning good morning great to be here oh great to have you on we have to start with Mary Earps what a win this is a person that you would have known for many many years when she came up through the youth systems what was your reaction to seeing her on top of the stage winning such a prestigious award oh absolutely thrilled for You know, what a fantastic evening and to have two winners in two years

for the Lionesses, you know, it's incredible and I think shows how far the women's games come. And what I love about Mary, you know, she's a wonderful role model to demonstrate how sheer hard work and determination alongside talent can get you to the top. And she's spoken openly about the challenges of her journey.

She was going to quit, Kelly. She was going to quit football altogether. Imagine if she'd done that back in 2019. What a loss it would have been. And of course, she's used her platform wonderfully to speak out when she thinks things are wrong. And, you know, I love that about the Lionesses and the women's players generally is that they will use their platform to challenge and to help drive the game forward, whether that's goalkeeper shirts or other issues in the game. And of course, she's done that wonderfully as well. Yeah, I think that's a big part of why they've captured so many people's imaginations because they use their platforms in the way that they do.

Now, last night was possibly a mark to show how far the women's game has come. But let's get to the start of your career. When you joined the FA more than 30 years ago, I'm sure women's football was vastly different. In fact, I know it was. The Lionesses were working full time alongside playing, playing in local parks. None of this big stadiums, none of this Emirates, none of this Wembley hosting games. Playing in hand-me-down kits that hung off them. It was so big. Little to no media coverage.

So from your experience, what were attitudes like then towards women playing football and for women like you who were working in football? Well, it just wasn't seen really. I mean, I went into the FA, the FA wasn't even in control of women's football. It was sitting in a very poorly funded organisation outside of the FA. And culturally, it felt like an organisation of men's football. And it certainly didn't feel like that when I left. There's a huge sense of pride and a huge commitment to the women's game but yeah I remember doing the first count there was an England senior team an amateur league and 80 girls teams so it was you know it was a great time to be involved in some ways because it was almost a blank piece of paper 80 but very little compared

to now well women you know we're coming off the the back of a ban. Now over three million women and girls play football in this country. It's a huge, huge participation sport. But of course, you know, women and girls were blocked off for years from playing our national sport. And I think that's one of the things that really drove me. I wasn't allowed to play as a girl. I felt it was a real injustice. I was sort of put in that narrow box of what girls should do. And I thought, no, I'm not having any of that.

So I played football in the park, played football with with my brother practiced my keepy-uppies and then you know got the chance as soon as I went to university I literally ran to join the women's football team and sort of went from there so yeah I wasn't having any of those social norms. Brilliant, are you still playing now? Not really no, walking the dogs. Maybe we can have a kickabout at the weekend. Yeah maybe. Talk about fighting against the odds. But alongside your pivotal work in football was another game-changing woman in Hope Powell. Now, she was the England manager for 15 years and laid the foundations for success for the current Lionesses. But you actually had to convince her to take the job.

And this all happened in her kitchen. Is that right? It did. So the background to it is that I was working with Howard Wilkinson, who's a fantastic male ally. And we'd got the funding together to set up the England youth teams and put the centres of excellence in place. The Lionesses subsequently came through and were hugely successful. And we needed a full time national coach. We thought Hope was the perfect person for that.

But yes, she subsequently turned it down. Did she say why say why yeah I think she thought maybe it was too early she was just coming to the end of her playing career she was taking her coaching badges but anybody who knew Hope then knew that she was absolute you know visionary and a leader and so yeah I sat in the kitchen said look Hope you know you'll you'll turn it down and then you'll watch someone else do it and you'll think I could have done it better and so I drove off down the road and she rang me later and said, yeah, you're right, I'll take the job. And, you know, so, so thrilled she did because, of course, you know, she went on to be

arguably the most influential person in women's football in this country in terms of, you know, what she's put in place. Yeah, you talk about influence as well. We're talking about your influence right now, Kelly, and how you've managed to transform the game from being largely ignored to what we saw at the Emirates just a couple of weekends ago where I was there, 59,000 football fans there for a women's football match

inside Arsenal Stadium. Did you ever envisage it would become that big? How on earth have you put the practices and processes in place to achieve that? I think I did. I think maybe not as quickly. I think one of the reasons I wanted to take the director of the women's professional game job in 2018 was I really felt that of women's sports that could finally break through into the mainstream in terms of regular week on week coverage and profile,

women's football could be the one that did it and helped sort of drive it through for other women's sports so I did feel that and I still think now there's still massive growth to come it was hugely exciting the last five years being involved in driving the WSL and putting those foundations in place for it to ultimately come out the FA and be a standalone company in its own right but But I still think there's huge growth. I do believe in my lifetime that women's football will be the second biggest sport in the world behind men's football. And that means there's still massive growth in audiences, in players, in profile. When you look at the Women's World Cup, a couple of billion people watching the Women's World Cup,

all the media rights sold across the world, sponsorship properties sold across the world, sponsorship properties sold across the world, increasingly women's leagues becoming professional, brands getting on board, huge fans starting to come to games. If you think about the investment and effort that it's had, it's only quite recently that it started to have the sort of money invested that would help it to become the best it can be and set it on that on that journey so it's still got you know it's come a huge huge way you know quickly but it's still got massive growth to come so the question then becomes kelly with the game at such a pivotal point with the

game being so exciting after 32 years at the fa why have you left it felt the right time because um i think you know i'm a developer by background and I loved putting the building blocks in place for the WSL with a fantastic fantastic team of people in the women's professional game and the clubs and our stakeholders and you know obviously the you know the BBC and Sky deal bringing Barclays on board as title partner we went from zero revenue to 18 million of central revenue so able to start to distribute monies to the clubs it was a really sort of game-changing time for the women's game but I felt at the end of that as I step away now it needs new leadership

new energy and probably different type of skills and they've got a wonderful chief exec appointment in Nikki Doucette and you know obviously her job now is to try and really drive the commercial development of that league and ultimately make it sustainable so it doesn't rely on on men's football club money and it can be sort of protected and and invested in um and and able to invest in all those areas that we know that were outlined brilliantly in the Karen Carney report so it still needs to grow revenue and I think you know if I think if I'm honest as well, I was probably running on empty the last year. I was pretty burnt out.

It was really flat out. It was a, you know, a small and wonderful team of people that were really driving the women's professional game. And yeah, it's been good to step up. That doesn't mean that I'm not involved now. I'm obviously consulting and supporting women's sport and women's football across the globe. So still passionately involved and always here to do my bit.

I knew we couldn't keep you away for too long. Now you mentioned the new, I suppose, process that the Women's Super League is going under. For those that don't know, the Women's Super League and the league underneath it, the championship, are being handed over to a new company away from the FA. That new company is called NUCO. It will be a club-owned organisation,

and that will take over from next season with Nicky Doucette, as you say, leading things in that regard. What steps do you think NUCO needs to take now to continue on this path of success, to continue on this path of where they're progressing and making it bigger and better than ever? Yeah, I think, well, first of all, I'm sure, you know, Nikki will be putting her leadership team together. So it's about making sure that the league centrally is resourced to drive that strategy and that ambition that they've set out, that Dawn Airey talked about, who's the chair, brilliant chair of the Women's Super League and Championship, about an ambition to be the first billion pound women's league in the next 10 years.

So that's going to require resourcing internally. And I've seen that. Is that realistic? I think it can be. I think it can be. Yeah, I think it's a stretched target. But I absolutely do. When you look at sort of what's happening across the globe in terms of women's football and women's sport. So I think, you know, obviously the initial focus will be around getting the people around

and she'll inherit some fantastic people alongside that. The next thing is identifying what monies need to be invested ahead of that sort of revenue growth that will come. So that means investment in the product, investment in marketing to make sure that everything's in place to maximise that growth potential. So, yeah, I think lots to do. Obviously, as I mentioned earlier, there's plenty in the Karen Carney report the money to invest more in the academies, to diversify and strengthen the talent pipeline, both for the Women's Super League, but also for England's future success. You look at the performance of Spain, particularly in world youth tournaments, and there's more work to do to make sure that the Lionesses stay at the top in terms of the youth pathway and the talent coming through. And of

course, you know, the WSL will only benefit from homegrown world-class talent as well. So I think it's really important that football invests more in that area going forward. Yeah, it's clear that the lionesses have really improved on the world stage because they've got that young talent coming through year after year. You mentioned the diversity word there, which is often a contentious issue. Now, you would have seen recently the Arsenal women's team photo going viral because every member of the team was white, so it was criticised for their lack of diversity. When you compare that to the men's, it's very different in the women's game. The men's seems far more diverse. There's many more people from ethnic minorities coming into the game playing at the top level, both at the youth ages, but also at the elite level for England men as well. It's not the same in the women's game. You've worked in the game for a long time. Why is that? What's happened is as the game is professionalised and the money's been drawn into the first team environment for clubs to try and survive and compete in the WSL and attract world-class talent to do that, there's been less focus and less investment on academies.

That's tended to leave clubs in a situation where their academies have been at the men's training ground or at the boys academy in in sort of leafier rural areas so maybe so the talent pathway has not been as accessible so the population in those areas aren't isn't as diverse it's not as diverse it's not as accessible what's happened is that since then the fa has brought in emerging talent centers right across the country so it's more accessible it's in those uh big population areas in the cities, feeding the academies, and already we're seeing a more diverse youth pathway, and we've seen that with the England Youth League. So you're seeing results?

Much, much more diverse, absolutely, yes. And, of course, that needs to continue. I mean, the men's academies is funded to hundreds of millions of pounds, and the budget for the women's academies is £3 million, and therein sort of lies a huge difference. So in the women's academies is three million. And therein sort of lies a huge difference. It's not so. So in the boys academies have satellite centres everywhere. If you're a talented boy, you know, there's loads and loads of access. And that's why, as I mentioned earlier, I think it's still one of the areas that football still needs to really find more resource for.

And one of the areas still contentious in the world of football is sexism. Now, earlier this month, I'm sure you would have seen former footballer Joey Barton spoke out about women's growing influence in football punditry, especially saying women, and I quote, should not be talking with any kind of authority about men's football. Then, of course, there was also Luis Rubiales at the Women's World Cup,

who was then head of the Spanish FA. He kissed player Jenny Hermoso on the lips, which she says wasn't consensual. He's since been given a three-year ban from football by FIFA. But has the women's game come forward in terms of sexism? Is it less of an issue than it was when things like this are still happening? I think it does show, doesn't it,

how deep-rooted misogyny there is still out there. I'm kind of loathe almost to give Joey Barton more oxygen, because he's clearly sort of seeking attention. And I think, you know, those who've got a shred of decency and inclusive values, you know, hopefully will be not following, not engaging and certainly not involved in podcasts and other things that he's pushing. Yeah, you don't really want to give it more oxygen. I think I'd like to see more male allies step up and challenge in this space.

I think that's, I certainly thought that during the Ruby Isles. So football doesn't have enough? I don't think so. I think I'd I certainly thought that during the Ruby Arles so football doesn't have enough and I don't think so I think I'd like to see it more uh I think there's some brilliant work I'm really proud member of women in football board member of women in football who champion women in the industry the industry is run by brilliant men and brilliant women um and uh and so I'd like to you know I think our message out there really is if you're working in the industry is to join women in football. And if you're a male ally, absolutely join women in football and let's be part of the change.

And women make a fantastic contribution to our national sport. And in every single metric, you'd be crazy not to want women involved as part of the growth of football. So, yeah, for me, there's no place for some of those comments. Now, another growing area of contention, Kelly, that I'd really like to get your take on is recently you might have seen a grassroots transgender player in Yorkshire quit the game after some rival teams refused to play against her.

Now, of course, under the FA rules, players can play in teams of their affirmed gender. Now, that is the gender they identify as rather than their birth sex, I should say. And that's only if their blood testosterone levels are within the normal female range. Conservative MPs have called for this to change and say existing rules undermine fairness in the women's game.

From your point of view, is this something that women's football will continuously have to grapple with? We've seen other sports go through it, cycling, athletics. Is this going to become a growing issue for women's football as well? I think certainly is something that women's football is grappling with. Stepping away from the FA that they were currently in the midst of reviewing their policy in this area and trying to find that right balance between inclusion and fairness and safety. And, you know, it's very much got an inclusion lens on that policy at the moment to try and make sure football is for everybody and accessible to all but definitely one I think that's that's under review and be interesting to see what what comes out because they've been looking at that policy over the last few months so sort of wait

and see see where they've got to on that one and just finally Kelly now that you've left the FA you don't have to be so I suppose secretive about which team you support right you can actually talk about it in public now is that right I guess you've kept it a secret for like three decades kelly well apart from the odd insta picture with my scarf on yes so who is it well i followed my mum so uh she's a big liverpool fan so liverpool's my team but honestly i can say when i was watching the wsl i just wanted um you know it to to be a great competition and for big attendances and big audiences, I never really thought about any loyalty on that side, but I suppose growing. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most

complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Yeah, Liverpool fan. Okay, understood. They were a very successful team when you were obviously growing up and watching as a young child. Kelly Simmons, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for coming into the Woman's Hour studio this morning.

It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. Okay, now morning sickness. Nausea and vomiting is something that affects around 80% of pregnant women in some form. 2% of women will experience the most severe form of this, known as hyperemesis gravidarum, or just hyperemesis as it's often shortened to. It can lead to multiple trips to the hospital for women during their pregnancy. But scientists think they've made a breakthrough. They believe they now know why morning sickness happens.

So could this potentially lead to a cure in the future? Well, earlier I spoke to the CEO of Pregnancy Sickness Support. That's a charity that helps women through hyperemesis. Charlotte Howden suffered with it whilst pregnant with her son. And she told me just how bad it got for her. So day to day really hyperemesis is hellish. And at the beginning, I didn't quite feel this way. But by the end of it, I basically felt like I was dying. You know, if you try and imagine being isolated, bed bound, unable to eat any kind of food and believe me I tried every single type of food possible every food group and then eventually getting to a point where your body is

rejecting water and realizing how dangerous that is and that continuing for weeks that essentially is hyperemesis and I can't really do it justice Jessica to describe it unless you've experienced that I find it really hard but yeah if you can imagine yourself being completely alone isolated in your room consistently and persistently vomiting and feeling nauseous that's HG. Wow so if you don't know what's happening to you it must be such a scary time and you've detailed there the physical effects but what did it do to your mental health so mentally you become um a shell of your former self so think of everything that you do in the days you're currently working right now your friends with your family

maybe your partner that completely stops you're completely alone and I'm happy to talk about the fact that at certain points during you know early pregnancy for me I did have suicidal ideations I did think about you know I just don't want to wake up because every day was the same and I wasn't able to you know function as a human being anymore so it's like having a chronic illness and that coming on really quickly and not knowing what to do or where to get help. So yeah, it massively affects your mental health. So talk to me about the help that you received. You went to the GP, then on to the hospital. What did they say and how did they support you? So I think this is common for a lot of women. We hear it at the charity all the time is that it's really just seen in that first

instance says oh you just got morning sickness love come on you know this is your for me it was my first and only pregnancy you've got morning sickness there's nothing we can do go home eat little and often um you know let us know how you're getting on so I was dismissed numerous times by by my GP um and it took really for me to become so so dehydrated that I was very seriously ill to then be taken seriously and then told actually it was my husband was told you need to get her to hospital and it's probably quicker if you go than if we call an ambulance but you need to go now so they really waited for me to become, you know, really very seriously ill before really admitting that something was wrong and saying, right, yeah, you need to get your

help. So it really doesn't sound like the knowledge of this condition is there. And is that common for most women going through pregnancy? Yeah, I think it is, sadly. I mean, the charity has been going for over 20 years now. So I've got to say it's getting better because we're banging on the door saying, take this seriously. And I do think it is sadly I mean the charity's been going for over 20 years now so I've got to say it's getting better because we're they know banging on the door saying take this seriously and I do think it is getting better but I do think the default kind of response is it's just morning sickness which is a term it's a misnomer it's not the reality of pregnancy sickness which even if you don't have hyperemesis isn't just something you experience in the morning. And I'm really hopeful that, again, this research, because of so much awareness now, in the last couple of days, will enable healthcare professionals to go, okay,

let's look into this condition some more. And how can we help women? Yeah, tell us about this research. And how do you feel about it? What's your reaction to hopefully understanding more about this condition? I mean, look, for any health care condition, once you know what the cause is, that's an incredible step. Right. Because now we can go, OK, we know this is a genetic condition. There's mutations, variations happening here. Now we know what's going on. We can actually look to the future to develop new treatments and hopefully a cure. So for the HG community, the last couple of days has actually been really, really exciting. But it's a bit of a double edged sword because, you know, a lot of us have been grieving the

fact that this didn't come in time for us. But the hope for the future, because hyperemesis can be hereditary is that anyone who's had a daughter or will go on to have daughters in the future that they will have access to this treatment and possibly a cure which is yeah which is just it's just exciting for the community that we we we can finally say this could be a reality. Yeah and as you say it didn't come in time for you and whilst you were dealing with didn't come in time for you. And whilst you were dealing with something as debilitating as this condition whilst pregnant, you must have been really worried for your unborn son.

Did it affect him in any way? It didn't. In fact, the irony is my son never gets sick. So I think maybe all the anti-sickness medication I had to take has had some effect there because he's very well, he very well he's very healthy yeah that's another bit of research we need to do but um yeah of course um but I will be you know I'll be really candid there's in that process in that journey of hyperemesis there was time you know where I had these suicidal ideations so at some point I just wanted to survive and so it wasn't that I wasn't thinking about my unborn child, but I had to think about me. And I do think that a lot of time in pregnancy, women are kind of seen a bit like this vessel, you know, but we are we need to live.

We need to have a life. I wasn't eating. I wasn't getting nutrition you know so I did of course worry about about my unborn child but ultimately I needed to survive for him to survive so really I had to think about myself. Understandable and going through this condition and it being as traumatic as it was for you how did that play into your decision whether or not to have more children? So I didn't know at the time because I didn't really know anything about hyperemesis but it does limit family sizes and that's what's happened um to me and my husband um we had multiple conversations there's been times when I've said go on then let's just give another go should we have another one and he's always been very

adamant that he couldn't see me go through that again. And I think part of these conversations, you do have to include the partners. He was petrified. I think he thought he was going to lose me. You know, so for us, we're very happy as, you know, the three musketeers. So, yeah, it does limit family size. And that decision was a difficult one, but it was right for us. Now, you have mentioned about the lack of awareness around this condition. Now, the Princess of Wales, Kate Middleton, spoke about her suffering with hyperemesis and even had to cancel some of her royal duties because of it during her pregnancies. Do you feel like that helped in changing what some would describe the indifference

around the condition? Did it help raise awareness? Look, I think it did. Let's be honest, until she suffered with that in all three of her pregnancies, I don't believe it was really ever in the media. So yes, I do think it did help. The sadness about it, though, is that when her condition and sickness was being described, it was still being called really bad morning sickness. And I really need to hammer home hyperemesis is not really bad morning sickness. It's a condition in its own right. So I think the narrative around that maybe made people think, oh, you know, maybe she's just a little bit more sick than usual. So and I would never wish this condition on anyone, but yeah, it did help when she had subsequent pregnancies, but you know, yesterday's news

becomes tomorrow's chip paper, right? So it's keeping that awareness going and hammering home how serious this condition is. And that's part of what we do at the charity. And this research, for example, has, you know, done an incredible job of raising awareness in the last couple of days. So let's just keep it going. That was Charlotte Howden from the Pregnancy Sickness Support Charity, who I spoke to a little bit earlier. Now, let's get into the science around this research. That's the important part of how we hopefully go about curing the condition or at least better understanding it. And joining me now is Sir Stephen O'Rahilly, who is Professor of Clinical Biochemistry and Medicine at Cambridge University and was involved in this research.

Good morning, Stephen. Good morning. Now, many would have been listening to that, having experienced morning sickness or know someone who has or even had experience of the more severe condition of hyperemesis. Hopefully there's some new information. So what have you found? Yes, I think just listening to Charlotte, you see how terrible this condition is. If I may just start with an analogy, what we found is there's a molecule in the blood going to the mother's brain that makes her feel sick. And the exact same mechanism is happening when you give people cancer chemotherapy. So everyone knows how sick people get when they get cancer chemotherapy. The sickness that those women feel is exactly the same as women who are severely sick in pregnancy.

It's the precise molecule. Now in pregnancy, it's coming from the placenta, from the fetal part of the placenta. And so what we've discovered is that this molecule, this hormone protein, it comes from the placenta, goes into the mother's circulation during pregnancy, hits the brain, and it is the same molecule that causes the milder end as well as the severe end. But the severity is determined by two things. One, how much the fetus is making and putting in. That's an important determinant. Some fetuses produce a little, some produce a lot. And then the second thing is how sensitive the mother's brain is to that molecule. And what we've also found in this research, which, by the way, is a multinational team

of California, Scotland, Sri Lanka, ourselves in Cambridge, what we found is that the amount that a woman sees before pregnancy of this hormone really very strongly determines how she's going to react when the fetus comes with a huge slug of it during pregnancy and puts it into her circulation. Now, it's worth pointing out, of course, that hyperemesis impacts around 2% of women. But is there any way for women to know whether they have this particular hormone? Does a woman have to get tested? How does it work? It's not ready for prime time yet in terms of understanding the precise relationship to being given somebody an actual diagnosis based on a pre-pregnancy blood test. We can't really do that. What we're planning to do in terms of trying to prevent it at the moment, our first step in turning this research into something practical, I'm working with

Pregnancy Sickness Support's help actually in talking to women around the country. What we'd like to do is find women like Charlotte who would like to have a second pregnancy and say, would you be willing to enter a trial where we gradually increase the amount of this hormone in your blood prior to the pregnancy? Because we believe that every doubling of this hormone will reduce the chances of hyperemesis by a half. So if we can safely and gradually and softly, if you like, for months and months before a pregnancy, a planned pregnancy, increase. And we should be able to reduce the impact when the pregnancy comes along. So that's one practical thing we're doing. We're also trying to develop treatments for women who are actually suffering with the actual disorder. Now, whilst it's very small minority of women that suffer from hyperemesis,

it doesn't make it any less debilitating, of course, and causes so much distress. But what are the timescales for this? What's the next step in research? How close are we to a cure that women listening now will feel like perhaps we're getting closer to helping them through the condition? So there are two independent things that scientists are doing, and we're involved in both of them. I'm sure there'll be others doing similar work. What we're doing, first of all, is we're confident that if we could block the action of this hormone at the brain of the woman, at the area of the brain, it's a very small area at the base of the brain called the medulla, if we can block the action there, then we will be able to very almost turn it off like a tap. I mean, those symptoms should disappear within hours of

the treatment. So we would like to develop a treatment for women. Now, that's a challenge because that's a treatment in pregnancy. And everyone will remember thalidomide and the terrible horrors of that. We strongly believe we can develop a safe treatment because we think we can target this receptor uniquely, so we won't hit anything else in the fetus. We can even modify, if we use an antibody, we can stop it crossing the placenta so it never gets into the fetus. Now, the timeline for that, given regulations, given all the regulatory authorities and the testing we'd need to do, the timeline realistically for that is three to four years minimum, I would say.

The timeline for doing the thing I've mentioned before of testing ways of increasing, we can use safe and available drugs to do that. We're hoping to start trials of that next year. Okay, so relatively soon, in the next three to four years. Now, as I mentioned before, 80% of pregnant women experience some form of sickness. Why is this breakthrough only being made now in 2023? Well, I mean, breakthroughs happen because of technology. And sometimes it's very hard to measure stuff. And we're much better now at doing human genetics, much better at doing human biochemistry. But I do think that it's been relatively neglected as a disease area. And of course, there's a lot of publicity about how

women's health issues have been broadly neglected more than others. Certainly, we make great progress, for example, in breast cancer, but in other fields like endometriosis and others, less attention has been paid. So I think that part of its technological advance and part of it is now the fact that it's been truly recognised as a real problem having major impacts on people's well-being. Great to get your thoughts. Women's well-being. Yes, of course.

Professor Sir Stephen O'Rahilly, thank you for coming on to Women's wellbeing. Great to get your thoughts. Women's wellbeing. Yes, of course. Professor Sir Stephen O'Rahilly, thank you for coming on to Women's Hour. And earlier we heard from Charlotte Howden. Thank you to both of our guests. And if you're worried about pregnancy sickness or anything else that you've heard in those interviews, there are links to resources on our website. Now the festive period,

it can be such a chaotic time, can't it? With all the christmas shopping the cooking the decorations so when and if it's maybe a big if you manage to survive it you could well be exhausted by time january comes around particularly with the short days and the dreary weather if that's you don't worry My next two guests will give us some tips on planning ahead, planning ahead that we can actually do now to ensure that we have better starts to the new year. I'm definitely going to need some of these tips to help preserve my mental health in the process. I'm joined by Cathy Madavan, psychological decl Decluttering Expert and Clinical Psychologist, Dr. Emma Hepburn.

Good morning to you both. Good morning. Good morning. Great to have you on. Now, let me come to you first, Emma. Now, it's often billed as the most wonderful time of the year. We're on the, what are we on, 20th of December. We've got five days. I'll be honest, I am feeling a little burnt out already and we haven't even got there yet. What can we do in these last few days perhaps to give ourselves a bit of a helping hand over the next week or so when things really ramp up? Yeah, well it is pitched as the most wonderful time of the year but there's a lot of pressure and demand and cognitive overload for many people and particularly women because we still know that

the cognitive demand often comes to women and I think that's one of the things is there's so much pressure coming at us from social media comparison and society what we should do we really need to think about what we want to do rather than thinking what we should do what do we need to do what's important for us what's important for our values what What can we cut out? What are we thinking we should do when we don't actually need to? OK, there is a mantra, though, isn't there? Less is more, Cathy. But that's not true during Christmas, is it? Because we want to live in excess and we want to eat until we can't eat anymore. Well, I probably wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't disagree with a bit more mince pies at this time

of year. But yeah, that's really true. I wrote a book last year called Why Less Means More. And it's because basically, not just at this time of year, all times of year, I think we're sold this mantra that more is always more more followers more fitness like more success more this more that and at this time of year apparently we're supposed to have elves on shelves you know Christmas pajamas Christmas Eve boxes you know amazing table scapes this is a new thing isn't it is it tables yeah yeah just go on Instagram for a minute and you're looking at tables that you know absolutely look like something out of a magazine. And it's just a bit much, isn't it?

I already feel stressed thinking about it, Cathy. So what are people meant to be doing? We need examples then. What can we do to make this more enjoyable and more bearable for so many people that might get overwhelmed? Well, I think the question I want to ask really and keep asking myself and others is what is it that we want more of and what is it that we want less of? Because you can't have more of everything without a heck of a lot more stress. So it's not about like lowering your expectations. It is about adjusting them to something that is realistic for you and your family, because in every family you could be single, you could be married,

you could have children, some maybe with additional needs, you might have a complex, extended family. What is realistic for you? And what would you like more of? Because if you want a magical and a memorable and a meaningful Christmas, and it should be meaningful, it's supposed to be a sacred and important time of year, then you just have to decide that there are some things that just don't matter. And there are some things that do and really zone in on those things, I think, and make the most of probably not the extraordinary moments, which have become our new benchmark for normal, but actually the ordinary moments that are probably the most important. Okay, that's great advice. And then, Emma, what about January? Because we often get

that comedown feeling from Christmas in January, shorter days, dark nights, dreary weather. You say that we can plan now to ensure that it's not so bad in January for us. Yeah, we have this mix of all those things you described, alongside this pressure that we should be setting these huge magnificent goals and becoming this new person but actually it's really difficult at that time of year to do that because of all the reasons you said and it can be quite dreary and I think there's certain things we can plan and that's realistic expectations again with our goals what do we actually want to achieve and we know that tiny little things have more impact on our well-being than these huge goals we set ourselves.

So planning maybe tiny little things into your day that improve your wellbeing. And that doesn't need to cost anything. It doesn't need to take much time. It might just be getting outside in the light. It might be, you know, connecting with a friend. It could be really tiny little things. But also we know that planning things to look forward to

are really good for our wellbeing. Anticipation is particularly good for how we feel so what do we really enjoy and what can we plan in to look forward to and again doesn't need to be big things meeting friends for a coffee going out for a walk with a friend small things that don't need to cost any money but things that we can anticipate and look forward to and enjoy are really good for our well-being would you agree with that, Cathy? Yes, I really would. And I think I talk about less perfect and more progress. And I think it's about ditching like the ridiculous like new year, new me vibe and thinking about, well, where do I want to move forwards next year? Like where last year did I consistently breach my limits and end

up, you know, feeling fried and burnt out? And how could I create a bit more margin in my life? And what would progress in that area look like? I might not be an astronaut next year, but I might be to do an evening class in something I'm interested in, you know, how could I actually make some positive choices? And maybe just, I was thinking, just handing out some vouchers to friends, just on text. Have you done that? Have you done that yourself? What things have you done yourself? Well, things like just saying to, right, you can cash in this voucher for a coffee in January or cash in this voucher for an hour on Zoom where we hang out with the G&T and just spend

time together. And just try and encourage people rather than getting over consuming and overspending, which means that January is a hangover in a lot of different ways for a lot of people just trying to say well actually are there some things that we could do now that don't deplete us but in January will replenish us in some way and I think that's really important because it can be a difficult month for a lot of people January can be a really bleak month so just trying to think ahead and making choices now that might make it a little bit less intense. Practical advice. I like that. The idea of replenishment. Thank you very much. Cathy Manavan, psychological decluttering expert and clinical

psychologist, Dr. Emma Hepburn. Hopefully you found that useful. I know I did. Now, let's just turn a corner to our next story. And that is involving the war in Ukraine. Listen to this. Go to the front line yourself and die. Those are the reported words of the wives and girlfriends of Russian soldiers to the Russian president, Vladimir Putin. According to UK estimates, more than 300,000 military personnel from Russia have died or been wounded during the war in Ukraine. Now the partners of Serving Soldiers are addressing their president on social media. Some are calling for an end to the war altogether. Some are asking for improved conditions for their soldier family members. To discuss the importance of this,

I'm joined by Dr. Jenny Mathers, a senior lecturer in international politics at Aberystwyth University. Good morning, Jenny. Good morning. What can you tell us then about this latest protest? It certainly sounds like the language used is very direct and very blunt from these women. Yes, I think it's a real step up in terms of the directness and the intensity of the messages that these women are giving. I mean, ever since the beginning of Russia's mass invasion of Ukraine in February last year, we've seen a variety of different kinds of protests from the wives and mothers of Russia's soldiers. And they've mainly been focused up to date on, you know, very personal issues around the welfare of the individual soldier, around making sure that the salaries are paid and, you know, the support that

they get in terms of training and equipment and so on. I think this new group, I mean, there's a relatively new group that's popped up on Telegram recently called The Way Home. I think this new group, I mean, there's a relatively new group that's popped up on Telegram recently called The Way Home. And this is a group of wives, mainly of Russian soldiers, have really taken it a step further because rather than simply saying, you know, equip our husbands better and send them home for leave from time to time, they're actually saying, let's have an end to demobilization. Let's bring all these soldiers home. And that's a big change in what we've seen so far. And who are these women exactly? Well, they're basically mainly the wives of soldiers who have been mobilized. And so last year in September 2022, Putin announced this partial mobilization of 300,000 so-called reservists. And what it

ended up being is catching a lot of men in their 30s, 40s, even 50s, who have, you know, homes, wives, families, children, grandchildren, and they've been packed off to the war in Ukraine. And they, most of them haven't been home since. And so in some cases, you know, they've been gone a year or more than a year. The women are left at home to raise the children on their own. You know, very, very worrying times for them, obviously. And so, you know, this is what we're seeing is increasingly groups of women coming together, using social media, partly to find out information about where their husbands are, because the Ministry of Defense in Russia is very bad at providing information to families, and partly to strategise and try and figure out how they might

improve the circumstances that their husbands are serving in. And some of these partners have referred to the indefinite nature of serving in the military as legal slavery. Is that right? Again, they don't mince their words, do they? That's right. And again, this is a new development, because previously, the appeals that have been made to the government in Russia have been couched in much more, you know, sort of soft terms and very, very patriotic terms. And this is much more blunt because, you know, contracts serving with the military have been extended indefinitely. And so normally you sign a contract with the military, it's for a particular period of time, and so you know when it's going to come to an end. But all of the contracts have been extended until effectively the end of the war by-war sentiment in Russia. Could there be a case war from the very beginning. They don't have any ties with the Russian state.

The problem with the wives and the mothers of the soldiers is that they are viewed by some Russian oppositionists as tainted by the fact that they take the state's money. And that relationship with the state is one that has driven a wedge between people, two groups of women who might otherwise be able to come together. So the question now is, will the soldiers' wives and mothers move further along these sort of more overtly political lines and possibly to the point where they could join forces with other kinds of political opposition in Russia to the war. And how has the Russian government responded, particularly with the view of Vladimir Putin trying to get re-election in March? They've got elections coming up in Russia. Absolutely. And even though there's no doubt that Putin is going to win, nevertheless, he wants a nice, smooth, easy run up to the elections. He wants to persuade society that everything's going fine with the war and there's nothing to worry about. And so these kinds of protests, these kinds of objections from the

families of the soldiers who are serving in Ukraine are particularly potentially damaging. But what we've seen so far is that the Russian authorities have treated the women relatively mildly. I mean, they have received visits sometimes from local authorities and from the police giving them warnings. The protests, the limited protests that have happened on the streets have been broken up quite quickly. But we haven't really seen them being arrested and charged and thrown into jail in the way that we've seen other protesters in Russia arrested and charged and thrown into jail. So they're still being treated with kid gloves in many respects. But if their protests become more explicitly political, then the government's going to have a real dilemma because it doesn't want to be seen to be cracking down hard on the wives of

its soldiers who were fighting in the war. Now, when I mentioned re-election, you sounded very sure that Vladimir Putin would be re-elected as Russian president. But there is a woman who has declared her candidacy against Putin. What can you tell us about her? And I'm assuming then that you don't think she stands much of a chance? No, unfortunately not. Her name is Ekaterina Dantsova, and she is a journalist. She is someone who served as an elected official in sort of local elections, local government authority. And she's come out quite explicitly against the war, which is very interesting. She has almost no chance of winning. She'll obviously get a certain amount of support from the people who are sympathetic towards her

views. But it's interesting because we had a situation like this back in 2018 when Putin ran for re-election last time, where another woman named Ksenia Sobchak ran against him. And she was much more high profile. She was a very well-known journalist and sort of activist and broadcaster. And the surmise at that time, and probably the same now, is that it gives the illusion of a competition. It gives the illusion of a choice by the people. We're going to have to leave it there.

Thank you very much for coming on to Woman's Hour, Dr. Jenny Mathers. Tomorrow from 10, I'll be speaking to journalist Catherine Quamby about the dangers of not knowing your biological family's health history as an adopted woman. Plus, we'll be looking at how to successfully deflect those tricky questions from relatives over the holidays. It's been a pleasure to have your company. Thank you for listening to Woman's Hour this morning. Much more from me and the team tomorrow at 10. And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

To know what it means to be Roman, you need to look beyond the sweating gladiators. There are fresh stories to be told from scattered clues and new discoveries. I'm Mary Beard and I'll be uncovering these stories for Being Roman, a new series for BBC Radio 4. There's a young bride avenging the murder of her parents. And an emperor flirting outrageously with his nervous teacher. Listen to Being Roman wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

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