Woman's Hour - Mary Portas & Suzannah Clarke; Summer childcare; Eilidh Doyle; Mackenzy Beard; Prof Dame Caroline Dean

Episode Date: July 1, 2021

The future of the High Street looked challenging before the pandemic but as shops have reopened it’s become evident how urgent the situation now is. Many brands or their outlets have gone bankrupt or moved online. More than a decade ago Mary Portas outlined this trend with a government review into the problem, but she is now urging people to rethink their whole relationship with shopping and consumerism and move towards a 'kindness economy' as we come out of the lockdown. She has now written a book about this called Rebuild. She joins Krupa Padhy to discuss, alongside Suzannah Clarke who has published research saying women are the key to the regeneration of the High Street economy. Women are responsible for 85% of spending there and she says they need to be taken into account in future planning if the downward trends are to be reversed.Eilidh Doyle is Scotland’s most decorated track and field athlete of all time. The Olympic, World and European medal holder had hoped to compete in the Olympics in Tokyo this month but instead announced – at the age of 34 - her retirement from competitive athletics. She talks to Krupa about knowing when to stop, and becoming involved in a new project with Abertay University, where elite athletes and sporting figures such as Judy Murray and Tanni-Grey Thompson share their experiences of unexpected setbacks and coping strategies with people who have been negatively impacted by Covid-19. School summer holidays are looming in England and Wales and in Scotland and Northern Ireland they have already begun. But what provision is there for the children of working parents who need local, affordable and well-run holiday childcare? There are rumours of patchy availability, often with a high cost. So what impact is this having on parents? Ahead of the results of their annual survey on this – Megan Jarvie, Head of Coram Family and Childcare joins Krupa along with Rebekah Jackson, Director of the Out of School Alliance. 14 year old Mackenzy Beard from Swansea has had a painting selected for exhibition at the Royal Academy, as part of their Young Artists' Summer Show. The work will be on display online and in London from 13th July. Mackenzy joins Krupa to talk about her inspiration for the piece.Do plants have a memory? Yes, according to the pioneering research of Professor Dame Caroline Dean, a plant biologist who has spent more than thirty years looking into how plants remember seasons, and what this can tell us. She’s just been awarded the prestigious Wolf Prize in Agriculture, which is considered by some to be the equivalent of a Nobel Prize in agriculture. Caroline joins Krupa to talk through her extraordinary work and career.Image: Mary Portas Credit: Josh Shinner

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Krupa Bhatti and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. How many of us have taken a trip to our local high street only to find, yes, another empty unit, another for sale sign plastered to a shop front? With this has come job losses and that lack of zest, which is so important to our shop front. With this has come job losses and that lack of zest which is so important to our town centres. With furlough ending many businesses small and large will be facing the

true reality of what their future holds. So in a moment we're going to talk about whether it's possible to rebuild our high streets with the retail expert Mary Portas and councillor Susanna Clark. What do you want to see on your high street as it tries to rebuild itself? What do you miss, if anything? Or are you totally sold on doing all your shopping online? Also on the programme, summer holidays are looming. In fact, they may have started for some young people in your life already. And I for one, after weeks of homeschooling and keeping the kids entertained through lockdown, thought that planning for six weeks of summer holidays, that's going to be a breeze. I'm not sure how I feel about it now, but we're going to talk about

childcare over the summer break a little later in the programme. And we want to hear about your planning. How's it going? You might be returning to the workplace. Some parents or guardians may have lost or changed jobs during the pandemic. Money might be tight. What options are available to you? Are they affordable? Is there space at those camps and the clubs? Tell us how things are shaping up for you and the children that you look after over these summer holidays. You can email us and leave your number if you're happy to come on air. And Ailey Doyle, Scotland's most decorated track and field athlete,

joins us to talk about a new project that she's involved in to help people with long COVID. And of course, her retirement from the sport ahead of the Tokyo Olympics. Please do get in touch on any of the stories that you hear. You can text Women's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. And do check with your network provider for those exact costs. And on social media, we are on the handle at BBC Women's Hour. And of course, you can email us as well.

But let's start with the high street, the future of the high street. It did look challenging before the pandemic, but as shops have reopened, and of course some have not, it's become evident just how urgent the situation now is. Walking through towns and cities up and down the UK, you'll see how many brands or outlets have either gone bankrupt or moved online. Over 17,000 chain stores shut last year, an average of 48 closures a day, and this includes the likes of Debenhams Topshop and Dorothy Perkins.

Just this morning, the clothing retailer Gap announced it is closing all 81 of its stores in the UK and Ireland to go online only. And we've heard from Asda they are upping their online game with deliveries set to be offered within the hour. Susanna Clarke is a counsellor and chair of Lewisham Planning Committee and she has recently published academic research saying that women are key to the regeneration of the high street economy. And a decade ago, Mary Portas carried out a government review into this problem and she is now urging people to rethink their whole relationship with shopping and consumerism and move towards what she calls a kindness economy. And to that end, she's already done a TED Talk and a podcast arguing for business and consumers to take a new approach. And she's now written a book about it called Rebuild. Mary and Susanna, join me now in the studio. Welcome to the programme. Good to have you both in a studio. What a treat it is. Mary, let's start with you. We are coming to the end of furlough.

It feels like a key moment. COVID has left some deep scars. How do we go about rebuilding? It has, but I think, you know, the most important thing is to face those scars and learn from what we've seen and what we felt, more importantly. When we talk about the high street,

which we're particularly talking about in this instance, we have to understand how our lives have been fundamentally changed and what we've gone through. And we've created a new rhythm now and we have to look at this new rhythm. We have to, I know we're talking about how women can help, but of course the stats that we've looked at for decades is that nearly 80% of buying decisions are made by women.

And of course, there's been a rise in internet. We've all been locked in, for God's sake, for the past 18 months, practically. So of course, that's been a rise. But I think the most important thing here is what businesses can learn from what's happened. And we need to look at businesses, in particular retail businesses, and understand that this consumerism that we've gone through for the past 40, 50 years

has been based on one tenet of success, which is growth. Growth, growth, growth. GDP, that's all we ever hear. Even if we wake up to the news in the morning, if your business hasn't grown, you're a failed business. Here's the most important thing that I hope we have learned out of Covid. And before that, because of the marches that we've seen, because of the shift that we've seen in people's awareness of what we're doing to our planet and what we're doing to our well- wellbeing, growth is killing us. We cannot keep going like this. And so that sort of capitalist tenet that growing is the only thing that you measure as success,

we now know through COVID, it's been exacerbated that this is not good for us or our planet. So we need to rebuild back businesses that are better, that add, that add and thrive, that add to communities, that add to society, that create social progress, as well as being profitable. So that put people first, our well-being, how we live, what do we need near us? Do we need local? Do we need that social infrastructure? I'm guessing we do. What are we going to be left with? I'm going to play devil's advocate here. I'm going to say there are some people who may have lost their jobs through all this. Many, many people have. And they might be saying, I just need to earn money. How do you get people back into buying this idea of building back better with all these

things that you talk about, feelings, kindness? Here's the thing. This is what we get muddled up. And we believe that you can only have a job and create profit by being a bit of a business that doesn't think about kindness, doesn't think about social progress, doesn't think about people's well-being. That's not true. We can create businesses that do that. Within my book, on my podcast, I talk about those, and some of those have been the most successful businesses that we're seeing. One of the greatest is Patagonia in the States. We've got Lush Cosmetics here.

We have The Body Shop. Anita Roddick was banging this drum in the 70s. Those businesses that put our well-being and social progress and connect to communities and play a part in our lives, but actually also recognise that they have to give back to not only us as individuals and society, but to our planet and not take from it. We've seen the cost that this is. So we can do the short term fix and go, yes, yes, yes. And there will be businesses doing that. Don't worry, I'm making great profit. I'm keeping people in job. And I've heard that so many times. And then actually what we're doing somewhere else is killing the planet. So we have to look at these. And we as people, consumers, and I talk about women, I actually don't even like the term consumer because you judge me by what I buy rather than who I am as a human.

We as women have the power with every pound we spend to make change. Because every pound that we do spend is a vote on how we want to live. And we need to be connecting with brands and businesses that are doing more than just taking. We talk about women as key consumers. Susanna, let's bring you in here because you say the decline of the town centre is rooted in a change in women's lives and shopping habits. Explain that to us. Well, obviously, shopping is women. 80% of the, as Mary says, 80% of shopping is done by women. They are becoming economically very powerful. Ernst & Young, their research showed that

$18 trillion are spent by women around the globe that's their worth but yet they're non-existent non-existent in policy in all the government documents the industry documents that i read all the media and academic research women were just not there they're the missing link on the high street and there's an awful lot of government policy that impacts upon women. But that impact is onward to the high street. Things like childcare, free bus passes, flexible working, all of these things impact on women's ability to actually go to the high street and spend money. But Mary, you were talking about needs. The high street hasn't changed to reflect the needs of women. Women's roles have changed vastly. We're still doing the roles of the 1950s. Most of the women in this research said,

I still do all the cooking, the shopping, the childcare, looking after older people. And yet they're now professionals. They're expected to be up in top management, aspire to that. They're doing more degrees than men now. And yet, with this change in role, the high street hasn't reflected this. They're too busy, many of them, to get onto the high street. And this is an opportunity. We've got empty retail outlets galore on the high street.

My high street is looking incredibly bleak. How do we capitalise on that opportunity? How does the high street need to change to better reflect the modern woman? Well, they need a reason to go. Give women a reason to go. The environment of the high street is poor. Often, you know, my mother always says that if men were to choose a colour, they choose black and they choose grey. And she said if they get highly excited, they might choose beige. And women's colour palette, get highly excited, they might choose beige. And women's colour palette, the way they connect with their environment is very different. They enjoy the greenery, they enjoy different colours. Yet the high street is dominated by men. Regeneration of the high street, design of the high street, choices of shops, even the retail

sector dominated by men. We need to look at the needs of women and design it and involve women in all of the decision making. The problem is it's done on a siloed basis. We have landlord and retailer. There's a relationship and very rarely do you get local or central government coming in. Although I have to say we have an opportunity here to do this. And I do think this isn't going to come from central government because we've been talking about this now for 11 years. And what we should be looking at now is, and I think some other cities are doing this brilliantly, creating what is called the 15 minute city or town centre, which is looking at how the rhythms of our lives have so fundamentally shifted. Absolutely. The social care that's done, the buying decisions, all of that stuff.

Tragically, we're still talking about women taking up 80% of that time. So we have to put their needs at the heart of this, whether it's creches, whether it's social spaces where you can have children work, all the stuff that you probably can't get within your house as well. This isn't just about retail. But more importantly, I love the fact that we need to be looking at how we can create city centres, town centres, local shopping that is feeding the planet and our wellbeing. So the 15-minute city, we should be looking at this. This should be something in central government that's saying,

how can we have everything within walking distance or cycling distance within 15 minutes that's what we need to be looking our lives have changed even 11 years ago for when i did the high street report is fundamentally changed through covid as well we're going to be spending more time at home which here's an opportunity to recreate local high streets that are fit for purpose. Stats have done, I'm sure you've done much more than me on this, but stats have been done that saying nearly 80% of women, and people will talk women, are saying, I still want to support my local high street.

I love that. It's a social infrastructure as well as a place that I can go and buy stuff from. That's what we need to put centrally and we need a new vision for the future. But we can't ignore what's happening. The space is moving online. And I'm just wondering, you know, when we talk about convenience, this whole 15 minute round trip, everything done, which sounds idyllic. The convenience of online cannot be denied. How big an issue is this when it comes to reviving the high street? Well, it's an enormous problem because the online sector is actually supporting busy women's lives and also people with, you know, older women with mobility issues. Online is useful for them and

we're not enabling women to get to the high street. Access is a major problem. You know, we have an anti-car policy at the moment and we're trying to stop people accessing by cars. But for women who are very busy, they have to nip in, nip out. And often public transport is very expensive and also takes a lot more time and it's not accessible for many women. Also, older women, they told me that they enjoy going in in a car. It's comfortable. It's warm. You get there. You can go into the high street, carry heavy bags back to your car, and you're done. Saying that we can't use cars is going to restrict women from going to the high street. And also, when you get there, you like a nice environment, but very often you're blown to bits by the wind.

It's raining. It's cold. We have to look at how women are using high streets and their needs. Give them a reason to go. I know, you know, I had my children go to a dance class near Bromley High Street, just around the corner. I'd leave them because women don't always like shopping with children. And I'd leave them, nip into the high street, grab some food, go shopping for clothes and things, have that wonderful 15 minutes for a coffee by myself without children demanding something.

And then I'd go and pick them up. I had a reason to go, but I could concertina lots of my daily routine into that. And also, you might have come across this, Mary, it's that safety element, that edgy feel of the high street in the evening. Women abandon the high street after certain hours as well. So we need to attend to that.

I think you talk about the Internet and, you know, of course that's grown. And of course that makes, we all use it. We can't deny that. But here's the thing. We're going to shop less physically, but that doesn't mean there isn't a role for the high street. So that's when I talk about the rhythms of life. What are our needs based? When do we want to do the social activity? I mean, let's look at this. When COVID, people were queuing outside shops to get in because they wanted some social interaction. You take that away from us as humans and we will end up, quite frankly, doing everything online, dating online,

having meetings online. What sort of society do we want to live in? The problem that we've got here is we don't have a creative vision. And when you have a creative vision that's deeply embedded on understanding how people are living today, then you can inspire and create the right environment for them. And of course, we have physical spaces that are just not fit for purpose. And there are so many going to be even more spaces, even more buildings. We know we're talking about the gap closing down. We are going to see more of this happening where there have been iconic buildings just selling us stuff. We don't need as much stuff. But what we do need is to socially interact, to connect, to learn, to socialise, to think about our wellbeing. Those

spaces can be on the high street. It doesn't need to be just about selling stuff. Many of you have been getting in touch. Susan says, does that 85% of the women responsible for the throwaway culture, is that what they are responsible for? Everything looks cheap and crass on most high streets a good clean out is needed this one from jill she says thank you mary portas for saying we don't need to keep growing growing growing all the time and that we can give back and this one also for you mary mary talks as though the uk is the only country in the world even if we did accept a zero growth policy, which I incidentally agree with, countries like China and India are never going to accept it. So for us to do so would just be an empty guest. Well, you know, of course, where do you start? I could give up and say,

no, let's not do that. If the world's, we're all doomed. No, we've got to start somewhere. I'm going to start in this country. And I'd like to be a voice for that. I'd like to see us have an economy that is based on, in the way that Jacinda Ardern talks in New Zealand, that is actually based on how people are feeling and social progress that actually feeds the wellbeing. GDP has only measured one thing. We need to look at that.

And in doing so, it's forgetting all the stuff that you're talking about, Susanna, the women who are behind half of these businesses that keep growing, who are doing the shopping, who are doing the cleaning, who are looking after the families. We have to start somewhere. I'm starting with my country because I'd like to be a bit proud of it

and actually see some change happening. Susanna, next steps, practically speaking? Well, I think the first thing is to look at policy and how it's affecting women. As I said earlier, we need to look at how to enable women and policy is a big part of that. But the solutions really are to give women how to enable women, and policy is a big part of that. But the solutions really are to give women a reason to go,

to give them access and to feed their needs on the high street. But also, most importantly, is actually to put women in positions of power. Women are not there in the retail sector, in government, in those places where they're going to make impact. We don't have women and women change policy. They change attitudes and social attitudes as well, as well have changed with regard to women in society. They're expected to achieve more highly, but we need to give women that support system underneath them to enable them to go forward and use high streets. And what's interesting, you know, I come from Lewisham and in Catford, we're doing a regeneration,

but we've really spoken to thousands of people and many women and they immediately said, we want a greener space, we want a safer space, and then we'd go there. And we've responded. We're now going to have, we hope, the greenest high street in England and I think that will pull women back in. It's also going to be a safe space for children. There's not a big road running through it as there was at one time and the design is based around women's needs so we're hoping that that work will work

and when you were talking, Mary, about big business has controlled the high street for a long time, big business run by men very often, but also run by foreign countries. A lot of foreign countries own this big business. What we do need is more independence, more smaller companies coming in, more smaller local businesses.

And to do that, we need to have small units that are maybe bought, like in Middlesbrough, they've bought a section of the High Street, and they're going to use it for many different facilities. I think that's a really good, I mean, I did this in my High Street report, if you can get councils to actually own the space, then they can start to create the needs-based High street for that particular community. And we aren't talking about, you know, we have to go back to the 90s, some deeply boring high streets around the country. You turned up at every place, same shop, one after the other. And we're sort of grieving that now. Well, we can't grieve that. All those names, all those

businesses that were just selling us stuff, a lot of them super sophisticated operators, brilliant businesses. Most of the men were knighted and got their knighthoods for making so much money and then clearing off. Those days are gone. Thank God. We've just got this wonderful gap here and an opportunity to look at how we're living. That's all that we need to be doing.

She says that's all. My God, it's a big thing. But that's what we need to be looking at. The way that we're living has shifted. How do we create our high streets and for the future that feed the needs of people, humanity and our planet? Mary, you leave us with that food for thought. Thank you, Mary Portas and Susanna Clarke and lots of people reacting to what you've both had to say. This message that's coming to us,

listening to this is so very irritating women regenerating the high street pathetic argument and old-fashioned everyday sexism will leave you to respond to that online if you wish and kieran's been in touch to say high streets need better products less chinese goods and people need higher wages so that they can buy better thank you to both of you for spending a bit of your morning with us well let's move on to some sports now and ailey doyle is scotland's most decorated track and field athlete of all time the olympic world european and commonwealth games medal holder the winner of 17 international medals in the 400 meter hurdles and relay she had hoped to compete in the olympics in tokyo this month instead she

has at the age of 34 announced her retirement from the sport she's now taking part in a new project with abate university where leading athletes coaches and sporting figures such as judy murray and tanny gray thompson share their experiences of unexpected setbacks and coping strategies with people who have been negatively impacted by COVID. Well Ailey joins me now. Ailey first of all talk us through how this project works. Yeah so I was approached by Professor David Laverley who started the project and we'd done a little bit of work together previously looking at some sort of the mental health issues that are going on and he'd sort of said to me he was wanting to look to see if sport in any way could help help some issues with covid um and he he'd sort of spoken to me about some of the things

that i go through with my in my career some of the setbacks i've had some of the coping strategies i've used and whether i'd be willing to to share these um with people who are going through some difficult times with COVID and I must admit I was a little bit apprehensive to begin with because I kind of thought well how how on earth can I help how on earth can I um you know do anything um but I was open to trying to help and trying to do something so I was put in contact with a gentleman who was suffering from long COVID. And basically, we just had a conversation about what he was going through. And I just kind of shared a lot of my experiences, a lot of stories that throughout my career that I've dealt with, hoping that something might resonate with him, hoping something might help

him, you know, give him some sort of nugget of just some sort of strategy or coping mechanism that might just give him a little bit of a boost. And I must admit, I wasn't sure anything would help. But thankfully, you know, having spoken to him afterwards, there was some useful information there that was worthwhile. It's interesting that you thought that you didn't have the skill set to help. And yet here you are making a difference. And it really feels like mental health has been a key part of this yeah definitely and you know I'd like to sort of emphasize the fact that I have no medical background you know I it is from a an athlete point of view that I'm sort of sharing my stories but I think within sport um we we know that the mind is so important you know physically you can be ready and and there to compete but if your mindset isn't there

then the performance doesn't come out and I think as sports people yeah you learn a lot about the mindset well I certainly have within my career of how important the mind is and like I say there's a few sort of strategies a few things that I use within my sport that are actually relatable to other parts of of life as well and and I've just proven to be really useful. And thankfully, they've been kind of transferable to the gentleman I was speaking to about long COVID. Well, it sounds like you're doing some tremendous work there. I do want to talk about your career

because there have been a lot of life changes for you in the last year. You welcome your little boy, Campbell, into the world. Congratulations. It's great news. You have had an injury as well. You had hope to compete in the Tokyo Olympics and then you announced your retirement talk us through that decision making process. Yeah I think for a lot of people who probably don't know me I think it came as quite a sudden decision but for me it's something

I've probably been thinking about probably for the last three or four years I remember coming back from the Commonwealth Games in the Gold Coast and that had been a really great championship for me I got to carry the flag for Scotland and I won a medal and when I came back from that I sort of said to my husband who's actually my coach I think I'd be quite happy to retire now you know I think off the back of that to kind of go out on a high and I think as soon as you sort of say the word retirement out loud it's there of that to kind of go out on a high and I think as soon as you sort of say the word retirement out loud it's there and you're kind of thinking about it but there was always something to pull me back and there was always another event or another competition that I wanted to take part in so I kept going and then I got pregnant in 2019 and the plan was after having my son to try and get back for the Olympics had they gone ahead in 2020 I thought that was a really good target to have to try and get back you know just to get me back physically um and and

recovering after birth and realistically had they gone ahead in 2020 I would have retired after that um but then when it was postponed I thought right I'll just keep training away keep carrying on trying to get back for the Olympics in 2021 but i must admit my motivation was was up and down it was a bit all over the place and just within this last year having everything going on the appeal to go away and compete to to go to an olympic games um was very different i didn't have that same excitement about going i didn't have that same drive to go um and it was just one day training my husband sort of said to me why are you doing this and I didn't have an answer and I thought actually I've always done this because it's made me really happy I've loved it and that's just not quite there anymore and so that day at training we just decided that actually it's time to to step away

and and once I said it I felt this kind of weight off my shoulders I felt this real relief so it kind of confirmed to me that it was the right time to do it. It sounds like, you know, it's been a year of self-reflection, as it has been for so many of us. And obviously having your baby has been a key part of this. And there always seems to be an emphasis on women continuing to compete and do well once they've had a baby. For example, we've heard about Serena Williams when it comes to this a great deal.

What do you say to that? Yeah, I think we've seen it time and time again that women can go away, have babies and come back and actually come back even stronger and faster to compete. We saw it with, like you say, Serena Williams. We've seen it with Jessica Ennis. And I think if you have that support around you, it can be done.

And for me, I never ever doubted that physically I wouldn't be able to get back. I always thought it's going to be how I feel. And I think the thing is with having a baby, everybody's experience is very different. You know, everybody's pregnancy is different, everybody's labour is different. So there's not, there's no guidelines to follow to say, if you do this and you follow this protocol, you'll get back to your sport. Everybody know everybody goes through things differently physically and also mentally and um and i think it's it's it's about being supportive of whatever that decision may be as if it is to get back it's about supporting the women to get back and and not be made to

feel guilty that you're wanting to get back and do you the sport that you love and vice versa if it's your decision not to come back you know I must admit I kind of thought you know if I if I do retire am I saying to people that actually you can't come back after pregnancy but but that's not the case because like I see I said you you see everywhere and and I think that's the most important thing to remember. It's everybody's individual choice. And it's about supporting that, whatever that may be. You sound incredibly confident in your decision, and that's great to hear. Obviously, as part of this decision, you've decided not to compete in the Tokyo Olympics. And I want to move on to talk about that a bit more, because really many people are questioning whether there should be the Olympics taking place at all during this pandemic.

And in Japan itself, 10 percent of the population there, they're fully vaccinated. There are sorry, the Japanese population, by that, are not keen, a large number of them for these games to be taking place. And of course, it's going to be a very different Olympics there, limited audience numbers, no international spectators, you know, not being able to shout or speak loudly. How is this going to impact athletes' performances, do you think? Yeah, I think it's going to be a very different Olympics. I think it's going to be a very unknown Olympics. I think, you know, normally you would go into a games and you would know who the favorites were and and you know what countries are going to do well and I think we go into this and it's very much it's it's it's very open because a lot of it will be based on who has managed the pandemic best um and and there could be situations when it starts where people

test positive or have to self-isolate so they can't compete. And so I think there'll be a lot going on. You know, it'll be very different. And, you know, I've been to two Olympics. I got to go to London, obviously been at home Olympics. I then got to go to Rio where I won a medal. And so for me, those experiences were incredible in different ways. Tokyo's going to be very different.

And I think for those athletes that have experienced Olympic Games before, it's going to be very strange. Likewise, for those who are going for their first Olympics, you know, it's not going to be the norm. So, yeah, I think it's just very unknown. I think we're just going to have to kind of wait and see how it all unfolds. And on the subject of the Olympics, we discussed on the programme last week, Laurel Hubbard becoming the first transgender athlete to compete in the Olympic Games,

representing New Zealand in weightlifting. And Emma heard the scientific debate then that this shouldn't just be based on testosterone levels. But as an athlete, what do you think about the inclusion of trans athletes into the women's game? I think it's a very difficult subject. I think it's a very delicate subject. I think the trouble just now is it's all being directed at Laurel. And ultimately, it's not her fault. You know, she hasn't broken any rules. She is somebody who wants to go and compete at an Olympics

and is able to do that. I think what we need to look at is the governing bodies and those that are in charge. They are the ones that need to make sure that women's, you know, that women's sport is protected and that it is fair. And I think for Laurel, a lot of it is directed at her, which is not fair. But I think in terms of, you know, looking at the scientific facts of it, that's what we is not fair um but i think in terms of you know looking at

the scientific facts of it that's what we've got to kind of be focused on and you know ultimately is it fair is it taken away from from what's going on in within sport just now um and i think that's who we look at is the governing bodies as people in charge they're the ones that we need to put our faith in to to make sure it's fair and i fair. And I don't think it is at the moment. But like I say, I think it's unfair that a lot of this criticism is put towards Laurel, who simply is somebody who's wanting to take part in sport. She wants us to participate in the Olympic Games, and she's able to do that. The IOC have made the decision that Laurel could lift for the women's side on the basis that her testosterone levels have been kept low

beyond a certain level for at least a year but critics say that lowering testosterone does not fully remove the advantages gained through male puberty and the IOC statement here it's committed to inclusion and recognises that all athletes, regardless of their gender identity or sex characteristics, should engage in safe and fair competition. That debate continues. Very divisive, of course, but good to get your opinion as an athlete.

Back to you and your future. You've been running since you were nine years old. What next for you? Yeah, well, the thing is, I still love running I still love I love still love doing sport and so that will carry on although I'm I'm retired I'm retired from sort of being a professional athlete and going away and competing but yeah I will still be still be continuing to train and do that but for me I I love sport I have a real passion for sport

and and so I'd like to still be involved in some way or other. And I was actually quite lucky when I when I was pregnant with Campbell, I could step away and explore other avenues. And so I did a little bit of work with Education Scotland and with Sports Scotland, looking at some of the barriers facing young people today with access to sport. And I'd like to sort of continue with that sort of thing and and still have an involvement in sports. Like I say, I just I'm a big sports fan anyway and so although I'm not doing it myself anymore I think it's really important to still stay involved. Thank you Ailee Dahl for spending some time with us this morning good to get your perspective and of course we wish you all the very

best with your next steps as well. Thank you very much. Coming up a little later on the programme we're going to pick up on that conversation about summer childcare. How has the pandemic changed your circumstances? But also what is available to your little ones? We're very keen to hear from you. We may even be able to get you on air. And if you're happy to do that, do email us via our website with your contact details. You can also text Women's Hour on 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate and over on social media we are at bbc women's hour so many of you are getting in touch especially about that high street conversation this one from amy the conversation is

too focused on mothers it's important to consider the generation of teenagers who have only ever shopped online with asos and boohoo young people spending their pocket money on a new outfit each month is what kept Topshop afloat. Do keep your messages coming in. 14-year-old Mackenzie Bird from Swansea has had a painting selected for exhibition at the Royal Academy as part of their Young Artists Summer Show. The work will be on display online and in London from the 13th of July. Delighted to say Mackenzie joins me now. Congratulations, first of all, a massive achievement.

How are you feeling? Brilliant. Great, thank you. Yeah, super overwhelmed. It's just amazing. Brilliant to hear. It's an incredible piece. There's been an incredible response and it's such a striking image for our listeners who haven't seen it and we are posting it up on our twitter feed as well can you describe it for our listeners yeah of course um it consists of a man called john tucker he's a farmer and he's in a big uh fluorescent jacket um it's really natural and um he's just

got some light coming off his face and he's behind the barn, in front of the barn, sorry. And he's just really happy and it's a really natural composition. Yeah, really great. It's very, very impressive. There have been so many tweets about your incredible work. This one, how many remember their dads, their grandfathers walking in after a hard day's graft looking just like this you could ask that man what sort of a day have you had so many of people are talking about how relatable the piece is who is the man so that's john tucker and he's a farmer in a bit in our village he also cuts our grass sometimes. He's simply extraordinary. He's a man of few words, but he's so humble and polite. And I just came across him doing his work, just

getting on with his business, knowing of the light and his rugged cheeks. And I thought it was something that I really needed to capture. It's so intimate. And you captured those those that fragility about him even though he's come in from a hard day's work there's there's something very delicate about what you've captured there and there's a lot of disbelief on social media about your age you are 14 years old cannot believe that and it looks like the work of a much older artist when did you discover that you have this talent? So I've always liked creative things and done creative things from a young age but about a year ago, only a year ago at the beginning of lockdown, that was the first time

I tried painting. So I'm quite new to it. My mum had, she used to love to paint, so she had some canvases and brushes in the shed. So I went out and just gave it a go, thought, why not? And I just got really into it. You know, it was something new. I play a lot of school and I've got a really busy school life. And it's very competitive at the moment, everything I do. So it was something really nice that I could do that wasn't competitive and I could just have my own space. Looking at that piece, I would have thought that you'd been at this for years and years since you

were knee high it's incredible to think that you've only just recently taken up painting who suggested that you enter this competition this show? So I was aware of the competition but I didn't do it for that reason, totally unrelated, I just did that for my own enjoyment and then actually I completed the piece and I was actually really happy with it and my mum just suggested, you know, why not enter it in this competition. The school also around that time informed us about it and let us know and so school also supported and helped with with that so from two sides there you mentioned your mom there and you mentioned that she's also an artist she must be incredibly proud

yeah yeah yeah she's really proud um she he wasn't quite sure before all of this whether it was just just her as a parent you know that i it. But actually now with this competition and it all going a bit blown up on social media, you know, it's not just her and she doesn't feel so mad anymore for getting all teary when she sees it. She should be very, very proud. You are in year nine. GCSE choices done or about to be done?

I'm just thinking ahead. Yes, I've chosen my GCSE choices. Is art in be done I'm just thinking ahead yes I've chosen my GCSE choices is art in there art is in there so it should be do you see a future for yourself as an artist um well I'd really really enjoy it and I'd love to continue with it but I've just got so much on I think it's something that I want to continue but I think I'm a bit bit young so far to know what I'm going to do and where I'm going to go but definitely something I want to continue with and keep going at and I don't want anything to change you know just love doing art for the pleasure the pleasure of doing it. You're an impressive young lady thank you Mackenzie

for sharing your work with us. We are going to put that onto our social media feed for you all to take a look at. And of course Mackenzie's work is going to be on display from July the 13th at the Royal Academy of Arts from the 13th of July to the 8th of August. Thanks again. School summer holidays, they are almost upon us. In fact in in Scotland and Northern Ireland, they've already begun. But what provision is there for children of working parents and guardians, those who need local, affordable and well-run holiday care? There are rumours of patchy availability, often with a high cost.

Here to talk about the impact this could have is Rebecca Jackson, Director of the Out of School Alliance, supporting after-school breakfast and holiday clubs in England. And Megan Jarvie, Head of the Coram Family and Child Care Charity. Thank you to both of you. Megan, let me start with you. Every year, the Coram Family and Child Care Charity, you look at the availability and cost of summer scheme provision.

Your results won't be available for a few weeks, but what are you expecting? What we often find is that summer holidays end up being a real juggle and a puzzle for families. So what they need is reliable, affordable childcare through the summer. And what they find is actually there's often not enough available and the costs are really high. And I think that's likely to be even more

acute this year. Rebecca will be able to talk about some of the pressures that we've seen on providers of holiday child care but what we've seen from the family point of view is some of the providers they're used to using haven't actually opened up this summer or won't open up this summer and that's causing them a real headache around finding something that they trust and also their kids enjoy and find fun to go to. It's such a difficult balance it's so testing for both parties. Rebecca broadly what is the picture that we are looking at what level of provision is available this summer? The holiday child care sector have really struggled over, as have many businesses, through the pandemic. And actually what we're finding is very much what Megan was saying, that we've got a broad section of the sector who are really struggling to balance the demands in terms of what parents actually want to need to access, but also the difficulties that they're facing

in terms of operating under continued restriction, necessary restriction in terms of the COVID-related regulations, which means that they're operating in small groups of no more than 15 children, necessarily impacting on the cost of delivery of the provision and the places that are therefore available for families which has led to a situation where many settings are finding that it's unaffordable for them to continue to be open throughout the the summer holiday provision

because they simply can't take enough families we have got an interesting picture actually from the sector themselves many who are saying that actually demand from parents continues to be low for the summer holiday. That's interesting. It is and I think we've got patches where parents are, where we've got significant demand and settings are finding that they actually can't meet the demand that they've got because of the restrictions and because of spaces. But then we we did a very very quick straw poll last night for some of those settings who were responding and broadly speaking the picture from those who responded was that actually demand continues to be lower it's improving but then we have to remember that parental working patterns have changed parental trust in terms of

how settings are operating within COVID guidance has also changed and has been impacted upon and that also children's demands in terms of what they want to do during the summer holidays and the impact on kids of living through a pandemic also will have changed completely that picture of how families are looking to engage with with child care particularly during the summer holidays as we move forward. You bring up some really good points there and Megan anecdotally we've heard from one parent who was going to have to give up her job to look after her daughter because of those costs. What have parents said to you about the challenges that they face this summer? What we know is that it's a challenge every summer,

this summer even more so, but every summer is a challenge. And what parents tend to do is a bit of a patchwork. So a bit of holiday club, a bit of grandparents or friends and family, a bit of annual leave. And if you've got two parents, perhaps taking that annual leave at different times so that you can cover the whole summer. What we're seeing is that there is, as Rebecca said, there is a bit of a change in demand that where there are other options, some families are choosing

to use those, so going more for informal childcare than formal childcare. But there are families who just simply do not have those options. They don't have grandparents locally that they can call on to do extra childcare. And this is where there's the real pressure, where there's not enough demand for holiday clubs to open up. The families that really need them are left high and dry. And as your caller said, I ended up thinking about stopping work entirely or taking unpaid leave over the holidays. We already know that the pandemic has had a negative effect on women's employments and mothers in particular. There's a real concern that over the holidays, that's going to be a real pinch point for parents again around trying to manage their working and caring responsibilities. And I know that two years ago, the Coram report found that working parents are facing holiday child care bill of up to £800 per child. That's an incredible amount. That's more than double the cost of term time child care.

And I understand that this varies according to where you are in the country, but fundamentally, if supply is down and demand is up in part, and I know, Rebecca, you're highlighting that in some parts it's not, these prices, I imagine, are just going to rise. I wouldn't be surprised to see prices rise. We see them rise slightly above inflation most years, and when there is more pressure on the market and more pressure on providers to struggle to make it work that could well be the case. For families it's not just

that the costs are really high it's the support that they're getting to help pay for those child care costs aren't always working for families. So particularly for families claiming universal credit so lower and middle income families and universal credit can help pay for your child care costs but you have to pay the bill and then claim back those costs and actually families tend to just about make things work each month you don't have a reserve where you can pay that huge child care bill for the summer and then and then claim it back it's a it's a real real struggle families one of our listeners has been in touch to say holiday childcare is soul destroying to find locally, especially for older kids, teenagers, for whom it's pretty non-existent. Most local ones have shut years ago that they were council funded.

And so we're more affordable. It means that 13 plus are often left alone in holidays. This is a really interesting uh point um rebecca in terms of local authorities in the government what would the child care providers like to see from them in terms of supporting them with their needs right now the our school sector has um particularly in england have really struggled throughout the pandemic they have had no direct focused support from UK government. It's a different picture in Scotland and in Wales, and I imagine in Northern Ireland as well. However, in England, there have been, there's been no directly support, direct to the sector

support, which has had a significant impact on them. They've had to rely on, as many of the businesses across the UK have, they've had to rely on as many other businesses across the UK have they've had to rely on the furlough scheme to keep their staff in employment and have had no direct support for their business operations unfortunately what the that means is that the impact of that is being swallowed up by a largely female-led workforce a largely a sector that's made up of largely small business owners who are desperately trying to make ends meet whilst continuing to provide a service to the families that they all care very, very deeply around.

And that limit in terms of the support has meant that unfortunately the picture that Megan has pointed out is that where those costs have necessarily got to increase because of the cost of delivery, delivering the service needing to increase to the providers, that is unfortunately being passed on to the parents. There is some support available out there through the holiday activity and food scheme for those families who have received free school meals, but not all providers are able to access that support and pass that on to to the families and it's only supporting a limited percentage of the population who are eligible so you're in that real difficult period. I guess the message from the sector is that they very much want to be heard, they want to be recognised as part, a valued part of the wider childcare workforce and that they

they want direct proportionate appropriate support from the government and from local authorities as well so that they can continue to provide a service for families and that's certainly the message that's come from the sector throughout the last 18 months, really, is that they want to be respected. They want to be recognised in terms of the value that they provide to parents so that they can continue to provide the support in the best way that they can. Rebecca Jackson, director of the Outer School Alliance and Megan Jarvie, head of the Coram Family and Child Care Charity. Thank you both for your insights there. This is no doubt a conversation that's going to be continuing amongst parents and child care providers as those holidays will be upon us in a matter of weeks. Right, on to something slightly different, very different. Do plants have a memory?

Yes, according to the pioneering research of Professor Dame Caroline Dean, a plant biologist who has spent more than 30 years looking into how plants remember seasons and what this can tell us. Now, she's just been awarded the prestigious Wolf Prize in Agriculture, which is considered by some to be the equivalent of a Nobel Prize in Agriculture. Happy to say that Professor Dame Caroline Dean joins me now to talk through her extraordinary work and career. Thank you for your time. First of all, tell us about your journey into this area of research. Well, thank you very much. Yes, it's

been a very interesting and exciting journey. I started off at school being very interested in marine biology and then got into plant biology when I was at university. I was very fortunate to have a five year stint working in research in California in my 20s. And it was there I really began to look at the seasons with interest. Having grown up in the north of England, you know, seasons were just very characteristic, striking transitions. And that was very different in California and I bought some tulip bulbs when I was there and the man said in the shop now put them in the fridge for six weeks before you put them in the soil and I really thought this was

remarkable I actually they actually need the cold to actually figure out the winter and the season and so that's got me into reading this and then when I set up my own group in Norwich 30 years ago, that's what I decided to study. And so that's your key reason for choosing this question to research, because many of us, we look at plants, we look at flowers, we admire their beauty. But what you're doing here, it really sounds like you're unearthing how they think, their actual psyche. Well, you know, people look at plants and think they're not doing very much. But of course, they're monitoring their environment constantly. They've got to really work out, is this a bad week in autumn? Or is this the whole of winter has gone past? They really need to accurately

determine seasons because they need to judge when to flower. And they need to flower in the favourable times of spring and summer summer and so if they get it wrong it's a disaster for them so they're really very active in monitoring their external environment and we really didn't know anything about how they did that of course we use these phenomena in a lot of our breeding for crop many crops we have winter and springtime varieties which all differ in whether they need winter or not but we had no molecular understanding and so that's what we've been able to slowly slowly unpick in this in this plant that we work with called Arabidopsis. And that leads me on to my next question in layman's terms how do plants have a memory? Well, they actually, it's the same memory as in our own cells. It's a cellular

memory. And the genes in a plant have the same proteins coating them as in our own bodies. And those are modified. And so when the environmental signals come in, those modifications happen on the DNA. And those are then remembered as the cells grow, those modifications remain. So if you think about your own development, you're an embryo, all of the cells in an embryo are given instructions. And then all the cells remember those instructions

through many, many, many stages of development beyond. And it's the same in the plant. What's been amazing is to find that it's the same molecular instructions that remember winter as the same memory mechanism that remembers all these developmental instructions in the embryos of our cells. That's fascinating. I'm a novice gardener, learning as I go, loving the journey, I have to say.

And so say if I plant some you know some seeds a few weeks behind when I was supposed to which I often do do they ever play catch-up can they flower when they're when they're meant to or is that it for the season well most of them would play catch-up they're very good at catching up except these ones that are evolved actually over winter so let's say if you had a an oilseed rape plant and you you had a winter variety and you sowed those in spring they wouldn't catch up they actually need a winter so some will catch up and most of what you say will probably catch up but the crop varieties have been bred to actually have an absolute need for a winter period what can all of this fascinating research tell us about other organisms?

Well, as I said, you know, when we looked in this particular plant, this reference plant, Arabidopsis, we find the same memory mechanisms in our own bodies, which then says all of the organisms in between will have the same memory mechanisms. So as we unpick how environmental signals are influencing these memory mechanisms, that's useful for all the crops that we grow and develop. It's useful not just for flowering, but also any adaptation to the environment. Or as we go into really unpicking molecular mechanisms for therapeutics in many diseases, we need to understand the details of these memory mechanisms because it's when they go wrong, we get disease like cancers. You've answered a pretty philosophical question here, where the plants have a memory. What other questions remain for you? Well, going forward, I'm really excited about looking at adaptation. So, you know, the plant we work with has adapted to growing near the equator and all the way up to the arctic circle and this is the same species and actually very rapidly it's evolved

to be able to figure out these different winters so we're now looking at how that adaptation has happened because of course if we understand that we're really understanding the the actual senses the plant's monitoring and and how the changes that have happened in adaptation have affected that and affected the memory and that's going to be hugely important for going forward with changing varieties that are adapted to a future climate because our climate is clearly changing. It's evident Caroline that you have thrived in this industry over your 30 years of doing this research. And as a woman working in STEM in the scientific industry, what would your advice be to other women, possibly young women working in this field as they try and make their way up? It's a wonderful career, because if you have an interesting question, it's a passion. And

so it sort of keeps work exciting every day. It's certainly hard. It's hard having a family at the same time. But actually, it's quite nice balancing the family and the career sort of two things balance each other quite nicely and keeps everything into in perspective. But it's academia is a very supportive environment for women. Now there's a lot of initiatives and help and mentorship so I would say absolutely it's a fantastic career it's exciting and very fulfilling. Professor Dame Caroline Dean congratulations again on your award a tremendous achievement and thank you for enlightening us a bit about the memory of plants many of you are still getting in touch about the high street in fact this one uh from the grafica who says

high streets need toilets seating all sizes and stock please otherwise i just rush home dying for a pee and fed up with being told by staff you can order it online and this one is from patricia who says women are time limited and government needs to make it easier to get around and comfortable in Bordeaux the centre has a tram system that is brilliant and goes to the edges of the town so again going back into what Susanna was saying about infrastructure and councils having to respond to women's needs and lots of you have been getting in touch to congratulate Mackenzie Baird the artist the young artist the 14 yearold artist who was on

a little earlier, congratulating her, people saying looking forward to her becoming a professional artist. Karen says, I would pay good money for a painting of this quality. And this one from Ivy Rose says, so much talent and such a young girl. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Do join us again next time. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.