Woman's Hour - Mary Trump: TikTok and parents; Social mobility and the creative industries

Episode Date: July 24, 2020

In court in New York last week President Trump’s niece, Mary J Trump found out that a temporary restraining order on her book about her uncle was going to be lifted. She joins Jenni to talk about Too Much and Never Enough: How My Family Created The World’s Most Dangerous Man.Editor-in-chief of ELLE magazine and board member of the Social Mobility Commission, Farrah Storr, chats to Jenni about launching their first ever mentoring scheme to find the next generation of creatives. The September issue of the magazine is traditionally the big fashion issue. However, this year the magazine is shifting focus to what’s next and how to rebuild the fashion industry after the pandemic.For many households, Tiktok has been a go-to for distraction and entertainment during coronavirus. The video-sharing app has around 800 million active users around the world, but this week, the app is back in the news over concerns over links to the Chinese government regime. We speak to BBC World Service reporter and Tiktok user Sophia Smith-Galer, and journalist and mother of Tiktok users, Zoe Williams about what the app offers and how concerned parents should be.The novelist Josephine Cox has died at the age of 82. She wrote more than 60 books and sold over 20 million copies- Her works include Two Sisters, The Beachcomber and Her Father's Sins. She grew up in poverty in a cotton mill house in Blackburn in the 40s and 50s. She was one of 10 children, sleeping six to a bed. She spoke to Jenni in 2001 about the novel the Woman Who Left – based on her own experiences growing up in Blackburn.Presented by Jenni Murray Produced by Sarah Crawley Interviewed guest: Mary J Trump Interviewed guest: Farrah Storr Interviewed guest: Anya Interviewed guest: Maria Interviewed guest: Sophia Smith Galer Interviewed guest: Zoe Williams Interviewed guest: Josephine Cox

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray, welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast on Friday the 24th of July. Oh yes, still here for the time being. I'll say good morning as per usual. Now some 800 million people around the world are regular users of TikTok, the video-sharing app. Maybe you or your teenagers love it, but should parents have concerns about the news of its possible links with the Chinese government? A joint effort to find a new generation

of creative young people. Elle magazine and the Social Mobility Commission launch a mentoring scheme. And as the death is announced of the novelist Josephine Cox, we return to my interview with her nearly 20 years ago. Now, for a while, it looked as if Mary J. Trump's book about her Uncle Donald might not be published. But last week, a court in New York lifted a temporary restraining order and it began to fly off the shelves. Mary is a psychologist and daughter of the eldest boy of the now president's siblings. He was known as Freddy, named after their father Fred,

and expected to be the one to follow in Fred Trump's footsteps. It was not to be. Donald became the favoured son, and Freddie died in his early 40s, a ruined alcoholic. Too much and never enough. How my family created the world's most dangerous man is based on her memories and conversations with family members, as well as legal documents, bank statements, tax returns, private journals, family documents, correspondence, emails, texts, photographs, and other records. Why did she decide to write it now? I had thought about it. Well, actually, I hadn't thought about writing the book, but I thought about, you know, speaking out before the election in 2016. And I realized that, you know, I didn't have anything concrete to point to. It was really only my opinion.

And I didn't think anybody would take it seriously. So it wasn't until 2017 when Suzanne Craig, an investigative reporter for The New York Times, knocked on my door and over the course of a few months convinced me that I had in my possession a trove of documents that, in her words, would felt for the first time that I had something tangible to contribute to the conversation. And over the course of a year or so, you know, we spoke at length and I started thinking that it might be useful to put my experiences with my family into a book and, you know, hope that I could inform people in a way they hadn't been informed before the election. And, you know, give people my assessment of the situation we find ourselves in right now. What do you say to those people who paint you as, and I quote, a disgruntled, disinherited niece looking to cash in or settle an old school? I actually understand the initial skepticism because it's certainly the way my family is painting me. But the truth of the matter is that if I had

simply wanted to settle an old score or had wanted to cash in, I would have done it years ago when Donald was still a quite well-known public figure, but didn't wield the power that comes with being in the Oval Office. So this book would not have ever existed if Donald weren't in the position he's in now. It's not really the safest thing for me to have done. Why is it unsafe? Well, he has a quite fanatical following in the United States. And I've seen what's happened to whistleblowers over the last three years. Generally speaking, it doesn't end well for them you know, are angry with them for daring to speak out. So, you know, I think I think it's it's fair to be concerned. I mean, I'm not scared or anything, but, you know, I did not do this lightly, shall we say. How would you describe your Uncle Donald?

He is a deeply damaged man who constantly needs to have his ego propped up. You know, he's so desperate to be admired that it's quite easy to manipulate him. And that's a grave concern. You write, I have no problem calling Donald a narcissist and that a case could be made that he also meets the criteria for antisocial personality disorder, dependent personality disorder, and he may have a long undiagnosed learning disability. Now, I'm sure he would absolutely deny any such bold claims. How have you come to that conclusion? Well, over decades of experiencing being part of this family and watching, and then of course, through my training as a clinical psychologist, and, you know, watching his behavior closely in the last three years as a concerned citizen. You know, I don't think anything I say in the book is a as a concerned citizen. Um, you know, it, I, I don't think anything I say in the book is a stretch and I do my best to back it up with, um, historical examples,

uh, of past behaviors. And, you know, I don't directly diagnose him. I don't think that's my place. Basically, what I what I set out to do was to outline for people possible scenarios and in helping people to understand his behavior and give it context. You write about a particular incident that happened at dinner when he was seven and your father dumped mashed potato over his head and then it was raised at a White House dinner and you say still seemed to wound him. What did that teach you about him? That he never recovers from even what anybody else would seem a fairly insignificant slight. He takes things very hard. He, you know, any minor insult is is exaggerated and felt very deeply by him. And, you know, that was. Almost seven decades ago, and, you know, that story gets brought up or has in the past gotten brought up on, you know, various family occasions.

And he always reacts the same way. He just has no it's as if it just happened and there was no distance between what he's experiencing now and that experience. And his his sense of humiliation is still quite palpable. It's a remarkable thing to see. You write about the influences in his childhood. What influence did his mother have? Well, unfortunately, when Donald was two and a half, my grandmother became very ill. She had some postpartum complications after the birth of her youngest

son, my uncle Rob, and was to all intents and purposes absent for an entire year during what is perhaps the most crucial developmental period in a child's life. So he probably experienced that on some level as a betrayal, even a betrayal and abandonment, even though, you know, it certainly wasn't her fault. Unfortunately, though, when she recovered, she never really made the effort to heal the rifts that had occurred. was a teenager and got sent away to military school, I think that just reinforced for him that his mother just wasn't there for him, either because she didn't want to be or she wasn't capable of it. And, you know, his sense of betrayal at that point, I think was complete. And what was his father like? My grandfather, Donald's dad was a very cruel, cold man. I mean, if you met him,

you wouldn't necessarily see that because he was rather cheerful. You know, he had every reason to be he was extraordinarily successful and wealthy, and he was in control of his world entirely. And, you know, from his family to his business. But, you know, he's not a man who would be crossed. And if you did not live up to his expectations, then you would be punished severely. And that was certainly what happened to my dad. And so why do you believe Donald was selected to be the one to follow in his father's footsteps rather than Freddie, your father, who was the older son? Donald had the benefit of being seven and a half years younger than my dad. So he was able to see how my dad and grandfather interacted. And what he learned

was that the worst thing you could do was be like Freddie. My dad was a really kind man. He was sensitive to a fault, generous. He was deeply loved by his friends. He had interests outside of business. And unfortunately, my grandfather admired none of those qualities. And because my father couldn't be the tough guy and the killer my grandfather required and was able to step into that spot. In one chapter, you write about his bankruptcies, his failures in business, which were consistently bailed out with vast sums of money from his father. How did he get the reputation of being a brilliant businessman lauded throughout New York? It's extraordinary. I'm still trying to wrap my head around it because

it required so many people to be complicit in perpetuating the myth started by my grandfather. But I think that is part of it. It started when my grandfather was willing to use his vast connections in New York politics and real estate to help Donald get the deal to get the tax abatements that helped his early projects be successful. And once that myth settled in, the media took over. You know, the media in New York City in the 80s was not terribly interested in digging deep into anything. And Donald kind of fit this idea of the brash, young, up and coming entrepreneur. And then, you know, the banks got involved and threw even more money at him, and it eventually became a case of needing to perpetuate the myth

in order to recoup their losses or, you know, maintain the reputation so that the properties that Donald still had maintained their value. What was your response when you realized he had become president of the United States? I was devastated, honestly. You know, the election in 2016 was complicated by many, many factors. I hope someday we'll understand it better and get at the truth of what really happened. But the fact remains that over 60 million people cast a vote for him.

And knowing what I know, and knowing what I knew then, yeah, it just devastated me that people actually thought that he was a viable option. Now that the title of your book is Too Much and Never Enough, how my family created the world's most dangerous man. How do you justify such a damning description. Well, in terms of the subtitle, the only reason I refer to him that way is because of the position he holds and the power that's conferred upon the person who holds that position. So, you know, if he were still a private

citizen, one, this book never would have been written, but he certainly wouldn't be dangerous or the most dangerous man. So it's simply because of the confluence of his incompetence, his how he's damaged psychologically and because he's, you know, in the White House. As a psychologist, do you feel any pity? Because obviously you've described a difficult childhood. I have a great deal of compassion for the child who suffered as mightily as Donald did. You know, he had a very difficult childhood and it was a cold household. So, yeah, I have a lot of compassion for that kid. However, he's a grown adult now. He knows the difference between right and wrong.

And a lot of people on the planet have childhoods as bad or worse and still manage to become caring, empathetic, responsible human beings. So he needs to be held accountable. You know, despite his disadvantages growing up, he is responsible for what he's doing now. What do you predict for the election in November? I honestly, I'm trying not to think about it. You know, I feel that we have a lot of work to do in this country between between now and November 3rd. And I can't think past that. It just it's too difficult to speculate. I was talking to Mary J. Trump and the book Too Much and Never Enough, How My Family Created the World's Most Dangerous Man is out now. Now, it's common for the September edition of a magazine to be the one that concentrates on fashion and what's coming next. This year, Elle is planning to concentrate on the future of the fashion industry

and how it should best be rebuilt after the pandemic. A mentoring scheme has been launched in collaboration with the Social Mobility Commission and 12 students between the ages of 16 and 19 have joined the magazine, been given a mentor and have the chance to continue until June of next year. I'm joined by two of the students, Hania Kidehansen and Maria Isahak, and by Farah Storr, who's the editor of the magazine and a board member of the commission. Farrah, what inspired this scheme? Well, I think it was a number of reasons, actually. I mean, I suppose at its heart is a very personal reason, which is, you know, I was born in Salford. I spent most of my life there and I kind of had to move out of where I was born in order to get ahead in the media. So I've always been acutely aware of kind of how London centric and how the kind of opportunities for the wider country, how few they are to enter the media.

But also it mainly came from, you know, me and my team had talked a lot about what we ideally wanted to do was we really wanted to take L on the road actually and work with students across the country in those areas which actually as my work as a commissioner we had identified as cold spots so you know those areas where opportunities particularly in relation to the media are very thin on the ground. And obviously, Covid happened, lockdown happened. And actually, what we thought was we can still do that idea. We can still put Elle in the hands of kind of the new talent of tomorrow. But working virtually, we could actually reach a wider canvas of students and a wider cross-section of society. So the September issue, because it is historically so important,

seemed like the right time to do it. How did you select the 12? Well, it was a real combination, actually. We started geographically, it is the truth. We looked at where these cold spots were across the UK, cold and medium spots. So, you know, we knew we wanted students from Sunderland, from Oldham, from Norwich, from Ipswich, from Hastings. And then we worked, you know, the Social Mobility Commission obviously we

have contacts with particular academies, state schools, further education colleges and then as I do with with many things myself and the team we put it out to social media and we asked, we were it out to social media and we asked. We were very specific with our asks. We asked teachers who were working in state schools or academies or further education colleges where we knew, particularly in F.E. colleges, we knew there was a large proportion of students from disadvantaged backgrounds. We asked them to get in touch and, you know, we kind of waded through all of the schools that got in touch. And we spoke to the teachers. And I think the important thing was when we spoke to the teachers at length,

I wanted to be really clear that we were not looking for necessarily the brightest, most academic students. We wanted to go for those students that they thought had potential. And that was the really important thing, I think Anya why were you keen to take part? Well I'm very passionate about my future and the future of this generation. I think this industry is a really good way to influence younger generations so it was a really good opportunity for me to be a part of this magazine as it has such a big voice. How surprised were you when you went to the magazine about the way a magazine works?

I was really shocked about the different job sections. There's so many jobs that we have no idea about. The school just really doesn't teach you about how much goes into magazines what sort of things are you thinking well it's just things like how big teams are um those when they show us in zoom calls how many people it takes for one section or two pages it's insane and maria why were you keen to take part well I was keen because I have a passion for fashion design and I thought this opportunity would get me a head start in the industry but then learning more about magazine also made me more interested in going to that type of career. What sort of help Maria did your mentor give you? Well Avril is the fashion director for Elle. She's such an amazing person like whenever there was fashion shows or competitions

she would send me links so I could watch it and she told me more about herself and how she got into the industry and what I could do. So Farrah, what have you learnt? Rather than asking what the students have learnt, what have you learnt from what they had to offer? I mean, so much where to start. In some cases, they were running circles around us. I mean, you know, actually six of the students submitted artwork to us um and we we actually we have printed that the more one of them is on our on our cover and the rest are digital covers and we asked some of the students

you know how have you created this and many of them had done it um some were you know i did it old-fashioned with with kind of pen and paper but many were on their phones with their fingers. I think the most amazing thing for us though, is just how they see the world. The students were great in that they put questions to our cover star and our cover star wrote a letter back to them really addressing their issues. And I think the thing was that came across from pretty much every young woman that we've worked with is just they want to see kind

of greater diversity particularly body diversity in fashion and also the kind of huge levels of anxiety as well I mean I don't think that is anything new for for young women we've all gone through that but it felt particularly acute for this generation. But, you know, the other thing I have to say is, you know, my mentee, they're super smart. And, you know, when I was coming through, no one told me to edit a magazine. You kind of have to understand business as well. You're running a business. You're not just running a magazine. Esther, who is my mentee that they understand that they look at the world in a very in and I think a more complete way and they approach creativity in um

in a really sensible way I think so what is the magazine going to be saying about the way the fashion industry needs to change as a result of what you've learned from these young women well I think it's not just fashion. I think it's actually, I think it's the media. I think we have spent a long time, you know, it has the reputation as being elitist. And we know, you know, the statistics bear it out. You know, it's kind of over 30% of people going into media

have an Oxbridge background or come from a private educated background. We've got to make it easier to access all the talent across the country. And, you know, that means being really specific. You know, I think one of the things that's always worried me, and I think, you know, we saw this with with our decision to lead the European Union is a lot of the time the media doesn't get it right. And that's because the media is composed of a certain section of society overwhelmingly. So we've got to make it easier. I think we have to start looking at, you know, when I was coming through, postgraduate education was preferable. You know, they're expensive. there's no grants for these things um you know russell you know going to a russell group university was was preferred and by the way i went to a uh russell group university as well um we have to realize that talent is in all cross

sections and all corners of the country and actually and i really do believe that this is probably one of the one of the few positive effects of what has happened, is that I don't think people need to leave where they started out in life in order to get ahead. I really don't. And actually what the past couple of months has shown is that in media, you don't have to move down to London to join the media. You know, we can access talent across all corners so anya and maria briefly and you're first at a life in magazines is that what you're hoping for definitely and now watching this

industry see how many women are involved and it's really inspiring especially looking at farah who's of a mixed heritage it really shows me that anyone can make it and it really pushes me towards wanting to work in this industry with these people and Maria same for you um yeah basically the same like it's really empowering seeing how many people especially women are in power in this industry and like it's not always going to be a male on top and I think that's not something everyone learns every day. Maria, Isaha, Kanye, Kitty Hanson and Farrah Storr, thank you all very much indeed and girls the very best of luck. Now still to come in today's program the TikTok app, its popularity and concerns about links with the Chinese government. How does it work? What's fun about it? And should parents be worried?

And the serial, the final episode of The Debrief. Now, as part of a summer series on how to do a number of things, on Tuesday, Jane had a discussion about friendship and how to be a good friend. Here are Jenny Eclair and Radhika Sangani. A question I always ask when someone tells me something quite difficult is, what do you need from me? Do you need advice? Do you just need a hug? Do you just need me to listen?

And I find that's quite a nice question because it just helps you, I suppose, do the right thing for what they need in that moment. I like what both the other women have said, actually, about, you know, not every friend has to supply you with everything. I get a lot. I live with a man who happens to be my best man friend because we have a huge amount in common. I actually really like my daughter. My mum makes me laugh.

So I'm really quite lucky with, you know, there's a core of family friends as well that works for me. I like my family. And also I have a sort of weird thing because I write novels. I sort of make up these friends so often I'm living with women that they don't really actually exist but for kind of months on end I have to give them quite a lot of attention because I'm writing their lives I know that doesn't really make sense but that is that takes up quite a chunk of my time.

One of my great friendships has been with the TV producer Judith Holder, who basically saved my career at one point by putting me on Grumpy Old Women. And then we got together and she's very kind of head girly. And I've never had a head girl friend before. And she kind of said, right, we're going to write a show together. And I went, oh, all right, we'll do this. And then, you know, it's been 15 years of incredible experiences and taking the show to extraordinary places. And we've been so lucky.

That has been a complete bonus. And I think that now I am sort of, I've actually found this quite very interesting, this conversation. Oh, right, okay. And I don't want to be a bit more open, but with caution. Jenny Eclair and Radhika Sangani.

Now, next Friday, I'll be discussing how to end your relationship well, and we'd like you to take part. So do drop us an email in the usual way. Tell us about your experience of splitting up with a partner, good or bad, and no names if you don't want us to use them. Now, you may have heard that the novelist Josephine Cox died last Friday. She was 82. She wrote more than 60 books and sold more than 20 million copies.

Her titles included Two Sisters, The Beachcomber and Her Father's Sins. She grew up in poverty in a cotton mill house in Blackburn in the 40s and 50s and was one of ten children sleeping six to a bed. She spoke to me in 2001 about the novel The Woman Who Left and it was based on her own experience. It was difficult and it was very grim, but, you know, you find your own laughter and you find your own sort of joy,

even in the depths of poverty like that. And also there was a bit of violence and drunkenness, you know, coming from my dad. But the men all down the street were the same, so the families all were the same. It was only when I went to school that I realised that I was different, that I was scruffy and hungry, while other girls had pretty ribbons in their hair

coming from a better class, you know, of area. It was a terribly humiliating experience, wasn't it? Very humiliating. And children can be very, very cruel. I remember, you know, once my mum took me to the Ragabone Man to get me a Mac to start my new school. And I was so proud of this blue Mac, a Gabardine Mac, and we were lining up to go into class

and some of the girls were laughing behind me and I thought, what are they laughing at, you know, because I felt so proud and lovely and everything. And when I got into the cloakroom, I knew why girls were laughing behind me and I thought, what are they laughing at? Because I felt so proud and lovely and everything. And when I got into the cloakroom, I knew why they were laughing because there was a tag hanging out of the collar with one of their names on it and her mother had given it to the Ragabone Man. So I used to hate all of that,

but you can't do anything about it. You're just a kid. There's a character called Ada Humble who was your mother's friend and famed for wearing a red trilby yes ada well in the book i've called her ada humble um in in real life her name was mabel and she lived right next door and she had seven strapping sons and she was a darling person you know she was about four foot high and six foot round and she was a darling person, you know. She was about four foot high and six foot round, and she was lovely. And she always had this bright red trilby on.

Even when she bent down in the morning to pick the milk bottles up, her trilby never fell off. It was rammed down hard. And one of the sons wouldn't go to school, and the truant officer came round time and again, and she was warned by the authorities. If he didn't go to school she would be jailed now i don't know why they're not going to jail the husband it was always the

woman that you know got the the heavy stick and she was jailed for six months um and when she came out she was as thin as a rake and she was haggard and she was her spirit was broken and she died and i remember our mom took all of us children to pay respects which is what they used to do and I went kicking and screaming I didn't want to see anyone like that but I remember one thing and it will live with me forever that when we were standing there looking at Ada she had no trilby on and she was as bald as a coot and the trilby was lying on the chair and my mum picked it up and put it on her head and she said,

they didn't know you were bald when you were alive, lass, they're not going to know now. And I've never forgotten that, you know. There's a fantastic description in, I think it's Let Loose the Tigers. Have you gone to, well, not you, but the characters going to Blackpool, but I mean, obviously that is you.

And you were just thrilled, weren't you, about going to Blackpool? Oh, how thrilled is an understatement, Jenny, because when you've spent most of your life, your childhood, in the dark back streets, you know, with the cobbles and the grim, grimy cotton mills, and we used to go to a place called the Ragged School on a Sunday, and all the ragged kids went to the Ragged School. And this particular Sunday, they took us on a shower bang to Blackpool and I got off that right by the seaside you know we got we got off the the shower bank and I stood there

and I couldn't believe I was frightened you know I had a real thrill of fear running through me because all of a sudden here I am in this big wide open space with this acres and acres of sand and then the sea meeting the sky and it took my breath away you know and it was an experience that that just stays with you it was so amazing. One of the other amazing things about you is that I mean there was that your parents separated when you were 14 and it was obviously very, very tough for you. You met Ken, your husband, when you were 16. But you missed out on your education but did your O and A levels later. How did you manage when your children were small to get yourself an education?

With great difficulty. I was working in a plastics factory during the day and then at night time I did three years evening classes doing O&A levels. Then I was accepted into teacher training college and I did three years there on a grant. And nowadays it's very difficult for children to get a grant but I got a mature students grant. So nowadays you wouldn't have managed to do it? Somehow or another I think I would have done. I would have got another part time job to do it you reckon? Somehow or another I think I would have done. I would have got another part-time job to do it but anyway I went there and I passed all my exams for Cambridge University but they wanted me to live in for a year and I wasn't going to leave my children and my husband

so I just said no thank you very much and I regretted it at first but now looking back you know I don't regret it. Josephine Cox in 2001. And of course, she died last week. Now, an app called TikTok has become a very popular distraction for an awful lot of people during the pandemic. It has around 800 million participants around the world. But this week, concerns have been expressed about possible links with the Chinese government and worries that information may be reaching unintended sources. You may not be familiar with it, but your children may be.

What does it do and how safe is its use? Zoe Williams is a columnist with The Guardian whose children of 10 and 12 have been using it. Sophia Smith-Gaylor is a reporter at the BBC's World Service and a user of the app. Sophia, how would you describe TikTok for those, including me, who are not familiar with it? It's funny how you said it's been distracting people, and I am one of the people who has been distracted over the pandemic with it. It is a short form video app, a little bit familiar to YouTube, which I'm sure we're all a lot more familiar with. But the videos on TikTok tend to last anything of up to 15 seconds

to 59 seconds. So these are very short videos. The app runs on trends every day. It promotes a different hashtag, a different track to use, And that helps users around the world come up with ideas to produce these funny videos, educational videos, informative videos that can go viral very quickly. But that's incredibly short. What can you say in 15 to 45 seconds that's really worth saying? I mean, you can say an awful lot. And even if you would speak to, for example, video journalists like myself in this building, we have to front load video content in the first five seconds of a video going out because user engagement is so low now with this flurry of content that we get on our feeds all of the time that people who are used to creating content online, we're actually quite used to jamming a lot of information. Obviously, you can't necessarily go into nuance like you can in

a longer form video, but you'd be surprised how much you can jam in 15 seconds or a minute. Zoe, what have your children been doing with it? Well, so I first noticed that it had another dimension beyond kind of cat videos and dog videos, which incidentally are fabulous and 15 seconds is exactly the right amount of time for those um when after when black lives matter when the protest really took off in america and the girls because the girls use it and my son doesn't the girls were explaining to me what had actually happened in George Floyd's murder, you know, they explained that the culprit was a co-worker. And even that was really weird to me,

to hear my children say co-worker instead of colleague or person from work. So they were using this really American language, but they were also explaining a political dimension and they had a much better fix than I did on just the kind of new gear that the BLM had gone into and how likely it was to continue and how much impact it was going to make so I was really surprised and my son was going how do you know all this and they were saying we got

it off TikTok and I realized that there was I said there was certainly a kind of element of citizen journalism going on that we were completely unaware of. And, you know, it's not it's not an unalloyed thing, this, because then the next week they were on about Jeffrey Epstein and coming out with insane conspiracy theories. You know, you don't really need a conspiracy theory around a scandal like that but there they've also got a number of conspiracy theories off tiktok so like any platform there is no filter you don't get you don't get only good politics from it you don't get only accurate information from it but i would certainly say that it's a site of awareness and engagement politically that I was completely unaware of. And now I see in a new light. Sophia, you mentioned that there are trends coming all the time.

What sort of trends have you seen during this period? A lot of the trends that TikTok has been amplifying have been around lockdown life, because obviously content creators are struggling right now with what exactly to film themselves doing because lots of people have been at home but what I do want to bring up is Black Lives Matter which Zoe has already raised the reason that that became a trend on TikTok in the first place obviously it was in the news agenda but TikTok has been repeatedly criticized for suppressing the visibility of black creators on the platform. And it was when Black Lives Matter hit the news cycle.

It's when a lot of black creators started saying on TikTok, it feels like we're being shadow banned, which means that videos are being suppressed on the algorithm. It feels like we're not being we're not being amplified as much as we could be right now and then all of a sudden TikTok picks Black Lives Matter as a trend and suddenly it's hit I think by now about 10 billion views. Who decides what the trend is going to be? Good question so it's normally TikTok what there are two ways that a trend can come about on TikTok. It might be that a content creator on TikTok has come up with such a viral, engaging piece of content that people naturally want to replicate it. It's just like meme culture, but in video.

The other way that TikTok might pick a trend is it will say, oh, a bunch of different people are doing videos connected with this theme, so let's make a trend out of that. Or lastly, it could be paid advertising. It could be a brand that has paid TikTok to make something a trend. And every single content creator putting a video out as part of that trend is actually doing free advertising. So Zoe, what conversations are you having with your children about what they can trust online? Well, it's interesting because in the end,

people always talk about what conversations you should have about internet security generally with your children as though they're these kind of little automatons who just do what you say. And maybe that works when they're six, but it certainly doesn't work when they're 12. So I would never, and I wouldn't want to to say you're no longer allowed to use this platform. What I basically say is you should always be skeptical.

You should always kind of, you know, set what you hear against your understanding of that situation and see how plausible it is. But of course, when people are really young, they don't have a very large bank of what's plausible and what isn't plausible. So really, in my house, there isn't very much discipline. But what there is, is a huge amount of discussion. So I kind of feel like if they're going to see conspiracy theory videos about the Illuminati, what I want to do is hear about it. So at least I can be the voice of skepticism rather than say anything with PewDiePie in is banned or anything with the Illuminati is banned. I just want to hear exactly what's happening so that I can say I think PewDiePie might be part of the alt-right movement. And I think the Illuminati is complete horse manure.

I think, so really my culture is one of complete openness. And that does involve turning a blind eye to some quite weird, if not necessarily problematic content. What sort of age, Sophia, should young people be before they're kind of allowed to use it? It's interesting because I went on a parent internet safety website as I was reading up about this, and it suggested that users over 15 should consider going on there. You can be on TikTok from the age of 13. We all know that children lie about their age when they get accounts on these platforms. But what I would add is that there is something on TikTok called family pairing mode, I believe. And that is where as a parent, if you do have a child under 16, you can have limited access.

You can certainly see DMs they receive. You can restrict certain content on there and you can monitor screen time. So there are a few controls on there. And briefly, as a journalist, how much do you trust the information you're picking up on there? I feel like because TikTok's become a bit of a geopolitical football over the past two weeks, a lot of people are concerned about privacy. I think that's legitimate in many cases, but what I'm more concerned about as a journalist is the algorithm and the fact that certain videos are still being promoted that

shouldn't be. It was only a couple of months ago that on my For You page, which is the main landing page for the app, that I found a very offensive and colourist trend that was going viral in India. So many people had reported these numerous viral videos and I brought them to TikTok and then they said, oh yeah, oops, we'll take them down. I was talking to Sophia Smith-Gaylor and Zoe Williams and TikTok said to us, TikTok does not operate in China and UK user data is stored in the US. There is zero truth to recent accusations.

We have never provided user data to the Chinese government, nor would we do so if asked. Not too many tweets and emails from you this morning. I've got no idea why. But someone on Twitter said that interview with Mary Trump was excellent. Two intelligent women analysing the most dangerous man. And then finally, Mary said on email, and I am not going to cry at this point. She said it's sheer bliss listening to excellence. Jenny Murray is Woman's Hour. It's as if she's been by my side, being a similar age with similar experiences in time as a woman. I wait for the beeps, pour my coffee and listen without interruption.

Congratulations and many thanks for 30 years of inspiring and empowering listening. And thanks to all of you who've sent tweets and emails along the same lines. I am going to be here for quite a while, you know, it's two months to October the 1st. I'll be here tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour, when you can hear how women are bearing the brunt of job losses in retail. And you can hear the Bosley Nightingale, Kate Rusby, who, of course, is said to perform folk music for people who don't like folk music. She's got a new album of covers made with her husband and her two daughters during lockdown.

I'm refusing to say goodbye at the moment because it is the hardest word to say. It will be very, very tough on October the 1st when I really say goodbye. So today, all I'm saying is ta-ra. Hi, I'm Joe Wicks, and I'm just popping up to tell you about my brand new podcast with BBC Radio 4. It's extraordinary. It almost turbocharges you. I'm really interested in the links between physical and mental health and what kind of ordinary, everyday activities people do to keep on top of things.

I keep fit because it's relaxing, because it absolutely relaxes my mind. And that's so important. So in this podcast, I'm having a chat with some of my favourite people to find out their tips and tricks to staying healthy and happy. For me, it's a full body experience and it's a total game changer. I think you're going to love it. Hit subscribe on the Joe Wicks podcast on BBC Sounds. Let's do this. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.