Woman's Hour - Mary Ward, Georgina Lucas & Ladette Culture

Episode Date: January 21, 2022

We discuss the life of Mary Ward the 17th century Catholic nun who actively championed education for girls - and even spent time in prison for her cause. Now, almost four hundred years after her death, Mary Ward's legacy lives on via a network of almost 200 Mary Ward schools worldwide – including St Mary's School in Cambridge. She is considered the first sister of feminism and a pioneer of female missionary work. Sister Jane Livesey and Charlotte Avery headmistress at St Mary’s school for girls tell us about her life and legacy.We hear from Jo Richards from British Wheelchair Basketball about the start of the British Wheelchair Basketball Women's Premier League which begins on Saturday live on the BBC. The league is the first of its kind worldwide, and the UK's first women's professional Para-sport league. What do you remember about ‘ladette culture’? It was a term first coined in 1994 to describe young women who behaved boisterously, assertively and loved a drink. Some considered it a feminist movement – allowing girls to act ‘just like men’. Comedian Shappi Khorsandi – who grew up in the 90’s – explores ladette culture in her new comedy stand up tour. Professor Angela Smith teaches Language and Culture at the University of Sunderland. Shappi and Angela both join Anita to discuss the significance of this time, and how our attitudes have changed.On 17th November 2019, Grey Atticus Fox was born, nine weeks early to author Georgina Lucas and her partner Mike. Weighing just three and a half pounds, he was taken to the hospital's neonatal intensive care unit and put on a ventilator. But less than two weeks later, a devastating prognosis left Georgina and Mike with an agonising decision of whether to withdraw Grey's life support. Georgina writes movingly about this experience and its aftermath in her memoir If Not For You.Woman to Woman is the all-star group founded back in 2018 and features musical artists Beverley Craven, Julia Fordham and Judie Tzuke. Now the trio are back with a new album, new tour and a new collaborator- singer-songwriter Rumer. Anita will speak to member Julia Fordham about their reunion, working with Rumer and their latest singles.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Well, it's trending on Twitter today, Adele's tearful apology for having to postpone her Vegas residency the day before the first concert because of Covid. Here it is. Hi, listen, I'm so sorry, but my show ain't ready. We've tried absolutely everything that we can to put it together in time and for it to be good enough for you, but we've been absolutely destroyed by delivery delays and COVID. Half my crew, half my team are down with COVID.

They still are. And it's been impossible to finish the show. And I can't give you what I have right now. And I'm gutted. I'm gutted. And I'm sorry it's so last minute. We've been awake for over 30 hours now trying to figure it out and we've run out of time. And I'm so upset and I'm really embarrassed

and I'm so sorry to everyone that's travelled again. I'm really, really sorry. I'm really sorry. She seems to feel awful about it and as she says, embarrassed about having to cancel. So this morning, I want to know your stories of cancelling at the last moment. What did you do and how did you do it? Why did you pull out? Did you fib to get out of it or were you truthful? How embarrassing or awkward was it?

Do you use the kids as a convenient excuse or just say that you're not feeling great? Have you lied about not being able to be somewhere and then got found out? Is there something you deeply regret not turning up to? This morning I want you all to fess up and free yourselves of the burden. You can get in touch in the usual way. You can text on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. So do check with your network provider for extra costs. You can also contact us via social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour.

Or you can email us through our website. Also this morning, we'll be taking a trip back to the late 90s. So sorry if anyone would rather forget them. Remember LADET culture? I have a hangover just thinking about it. What was it? Who were described as LADETs and who was describing them? The brilliant Shapi Kaurasandi is exploring the 90s on her new tour. So get your baggy jeans and strappy tops out. Plus a remarkable book, If Not For You, by Georgina Lucas. An extraordinary memoir about losing her son at only three weeks old. It's earth-shatteringly sad, but also filled with so much love.

And Georgina will be talking to me about her first book a little bit later. And of course, I would love to hear from you about anything you want to talk to us about the show. The text number is 84844. But first, it's a big moment for women's wheelchair basketball, a pioneering moment according to some of the players. It's the beginning of the British Women's Premier League and it starts this Saturday. It'll be on the telly so we can all get into the speed and excitement of the sport. The Worcester Wolves are taking on Loughborough Lightning in the opening match. And Jo Richards is here to tell us all about it from the British wheelchair basketball.

Good morning, Jo. Exciting moment for the sport. It is, yeah. It's incredibly exciting for the sport. It's the first league of its kind for women in a professional environment. So we're really pleased to be able to be making some groundbreaking moves and be able to take that step forward for the sport in the UK. I know the first in the whole world that's quite an achievement. It's quite special so the women will be in an environment where they're getting professional services they're able to access strength and conditioning and as much

kind of access to services like that off court as well as on court to make sure that they're really getting the best possible development to make sure that they can play to their absolute best. Now, we spoke to Jude Hammer this morning, who's one of the big names in the sport. She would have come on to talk to us, but she's got concussion. I mean, that just shows how dynamic and potentially dangerous this sport is. It is, yeah. There's quite a lot of misconceptions about disability sport in general. And, you know, we wish Jude all the best in her recovery.

But, yeah, it can be quite fast paced, quite exhilarating. And, you know, we like to see the wheelchair as a piece of sporting equipment, the same as you would use a bike or a canoe just to access um access sport and really play something that is fun to watch yeah i i saw an interview with um the captain of the uh of the worcester team sarah hope saying exactly the same that people need to view the sport and see the wheelchair as a piece of equipment like a bike i mean do you feel that you have to convince people to watch disability um a para sport because people still think of it as being something that's associated with disability? Yeah, and I think it's one of the biggest barriers that we've got within our sport, you know, trying to get people to understand that we're not just a disability sport. We're actually an inclusive sport. So anybody of any age, ability, disability can come and play our sport domestically. Internationally, you do have to be somebody with a disability,

but even then, there's such a wide variety of people that can get involved in the sport. It's not just full-time wheelchair users that play wheelchair basketball in the wheelchair. We do just see it as that piece of really technical sporting equipment that can really help people to get back into physical activity. Well, I'll be locked in on watching because, because like we said it is dynamic and brilliant to watch but for people who've never seen it who feel like yes now having heard you speak about it this morning they're going to tune

in what do we have to be looking out for explain the league how's it going to work so we've got four brand new franchise teams um that are training really hard at the moment to to make sure that they're at their absolute physical best for the start of the league. They'll play each other three times week in, week out, which is something that's completely different for women's para sport. They'll compete against each other in the league. And then at the end of the season, around May time, they'll go into the playoff positions where they'll play semifinals and finals to crown the champion. And it's being broadcast live on the BBC. What impact do you think that's going to have on the sport? It is, like we say, the visibility for any sport is really important, but for disability and inclusive sport in general,

just to make sure that we can show people exactly what the sport is about, how exhilarating it is, how fun it is to watch, but also the physicality and the strength that the athletes have. It's no different to any other team sport that is already out there. And who are you backing, Jo? Are you allowed to say? I'm afraid I've got to stay impartial. There's some really talented players within the league, so it's great to see we've got GB athletes, but we've also got a lot of young talent coming through. So it'll be interesting to see what happens. Oh, Jo, come on. Let's celebrate some of the young talent there. Name some names.

Who should we be looking out for? You should definitely look out for the Cardiff Met Archers squad. They've got some really young, talented Welsh athletes that are coming through that are pretty exciting to watch. So that'd be one to watch. They're playing against East London Phoenix the following week.

But lots of GB talent on offer at the game this weekend with Worcester versus Loughborough Lightning. Brilliant. Jo Richards, thank you very much. And that will, as I said, be broadcast on the BBC. And we'll probably be talking about it on Woman's Hour once again. So let me know if you watch and if

you enjoyed it. Your texts are coming in about all the things that you've missed and had to make excuses for. Alison says, I've missed many occasions and used many excuses, but my regret comes from the times that I should have cancelled

and been brave like Adele. I was crying listening to her apology. What has she got to apologise for? Nothing. And that's the response a lot of her fans

have been saying to her. That's interesting. The times that you've turned up when you wish you'd cancelled. And someone else has texted in and not given a name. I cancelled my wedding, ouch, two weeks before I was due to get married. Even though I loved my fiancé so much, we were best friends and marrying him didn't feel right.

It was the hardest decision I've ever had to make, but definitely the right one. 84844 is the number to text. Now, we're taking a trip back to the 90s. I was looking for so much, yeah But all I found was a little alcohol Looking for girls who are boys, who like boys To be girls who do boys like their girls To be girls like their boys Oh, I should be someone you really like

Shouting, logger, logger, logger, logger Shouting, logger, logger, logger, logger Shouting, mega, mega, white thing Mega, mega, white thing Mega, mega, white thing Mega, mega, on your, on your, on your way To a new tension, hit it Who's having flashbacks? What were you up to?

Can you remember or was it just one massive hangover? Were you stumbling out of clubs, partying, drinking pints and being as rowdy as you wanted to be? If the answer is yes, the world might have described you as a ladette. It was a term first coined in 1994 to describe young women who behaved boisterously, assertively and loved to drink. Was there an air of moral panic because women were doing as they pleased? Or now looking back, was it a feminist movement?

Were that generation women acting just like the lads for the first time? Well, comedian Shapi Khorosandi, who grew up in the 90s, explores LADET culture in her new comedy stand-up tour. And Professor Angela Smith teaches language and culture at the University of Sunderland. And together we are going to take a trip down memory lane back to the 90s. I'd rather forget it, Angela, but we are here and we're going to talk about it because it was a moment in history, Ladette culture. What was it all about? Well, without Lads, you couldn't have had Ladette culture because that's where it comes from. And of course, in the 90s, those tracks that you played come from that particular form of Lad culture, which is very boisterous. It's very much to do with popular culture, which is sport and entertainment.

And this is where, in terms of feminism, a particular strand of post-feminism ended up. And you didn't play the Spice Girls and they were sort of the epitome of Laudette culture at that time. They become symbolic of this ladette culture and of course these were the sorts of behavior which women had been not allowed to do in a way that was approved before that and it became a media phenomenon in a lot of ways and that never really that that didn't really go away it just became less favored. Shappi what does the term mean to you? I like you, I get hangover just hearing it.

Well, the Ladettes were, I think we thought we were taking feminism back. You know, I had no interest in being ladylike and being sort of sitting like a wallflower waiting to be picked, which was a sort of message that we were given. I mean, I'm from the generation, as arguably all women are, of one day your prince will come. And we were told growing up that men are only after one thing, men only want one thing. And so men were made to be these creatures that you were never friends with you had to run away from or you had to trick or you had to deal with and so behaving like the worst of male behavior was sort of shaking off that idea that somehow we have to behave differently around them to uh control you know to to be ladylike um but looking back so much of it was around booze and alcohol and that was

that's the thing that in my show i look back on because we didn't go out have a drink in the hope that we'd meet someone we fancy we went out and we drank until we fancied someone. So there's been a lot of undoing of damage since the 90s for me personally, which I shall be discussing in my comedy show. Did women describe themselves as ladettes? They didn't, did they, Shafi? Oh, no, not at all. It was more of a sort of derogatory thing of like themselves as ladettes? They didn't, did they, Shafi? Oh, no, not at all. It was more of a sort of derogatory thing,

oh, like you're ladettes, and we would be like, we're doing nothing different. Like that underworld track that you played, I did nothing different from the guys in the mosh pit, jumping up and down, and things have changed. I have two young cousins who are 18, and when they go out, they are immaculate. They wear impossibly high heels.

They've got incredible nails. And I look at them and I think, but how do you jump? How do you jump up and down? How do you run down the street with your friends singing Zombie from the Cranberries? It's a very, very different idea of what's fun, I think, now. I'm getting misty-eyed just thinking about it, actually. Yes, I think about the same thing. How do you run in those stilettos? So if Ladettes, who coined the term Ladette, Angela?

Where did this word come from? Well, as most of these terms come from, it comes from the Daily Mail and how their description of them as being like the boys who were just arriving on the scene with lad culture in the mid-90s and lads mags. This was a female version of that. Although what is different about ladettes from previous incarnations of women trying to gain equality is they were feminine as well as being feminist so yes we were wearing baggy jeans and trainers but there was a crop top there was a lot of pink going on those jeans were not unlikely to be pink and trainers definitely and here's a blast from the past you're absolutely nail on the head trying to be like the boys but trying to remain sexy at all times the fashion was um your knickers would

show through your trousers and you'd buy knickers that had like these add-ons that you pulled out these lacy things that you pulled out and crucially like i think it was the reaction to the sort of nuts magazine ladec culture that that we were like, well, no, no, no, we're going to come back at you harder. But the thing that I look at now is nobody talked about self-care. Nobody talked about if you need to drink that much to have a good time, what's really going on for you? And if you said anything to your friends, like, you know what? I'm going to stay off the booze for a month and do a detox and maybe meditate. They think you've joined a cult.

There was this unwritten rule with the ladettes that you never admitted to a night out actually making you feel diminished or a one night stand was actually horrible and it hurt your feelings that he wasn't calling you back or didn't know your name you're like oh my god you must have had a great night you know um and that is the thing when I look back for particularly for for myself and the social group that I was in um no one

talked about and then I did stand-up comedy in the 90s, which was the most male, I think it was more male-dominated than the construction industry at the time. And so there was no room to talk about anything being not right until around 2019. When you've got a teenage son who's asking you about the 90s? Well, that's the thing so my teenage son um is 14 and him and his friends have really got into music from the 90s it's all about the music and the allegiance we had to our bands in the 90s was nothing like their generation has now i think their generation's allegiance is to youtubers. So he's got into the music and he's a massive fan of pulp and blur completely independently of me. And he asks me about the rave culture and all of that sort of stuff.

And I said, we were talking about consent. And I said, well, we didn't really chat about consent then. It just wasn't a thing that we even knew are legal right and my son who was 14 said yeah but mummy it's not just about consent though is it it's about enthusiastic consent because somebody might have really low self-esteem and consent and those are and I was like wow you're on a different planet to the one I was on when I was a teenager well like you say words like consent and self-care just didn't exist back then. Absolutely self-care was having a barocca and

a morning after pill that that was it that was you looking after yourself and you know even things like wanting to have a baby no one verbalized amongst my friends that they wanted to be mums because that was something women who didn't have ambition would talk about in their 20s or in their, you know, in their late teens. It was all about, no, I want a career. And oh, what a saddo. She's had a baby at 25. With very common conversations that we would have whilst off our faces. But it felt empowering at the time, Shafi, didn't it? Didn't it feel like, you know, we are out with the lads,

we're going to match you, we are here, we're in our baggy jeans, our trainers and our strappy tandles, but we can exist in this space alongside you. And that, was that not empowering, felt empowering for the women? I think that it would have been much more empowering if it didn't require liver damage to achieve i want to i want to read out a message a tweet that's coming from lizzie she says about laddett looking back i think we were sometimes gaslit into behaving how men wanted us to if anything anything felt too much, it was the fault

of the woman for not being liberated or fun enough. It was perhaps part of an evolution of feminism, but far from the goal. What do you think, Angela? Yes, that is something that you find when you read people who read biographies and autobiographies of people who were in the spotlight at that time particularly if you read the autobiographies of the Spice Girls their image was so tightly controlled by their management that they weren't even allowed to reveal they had boyfriends and it becomes very much that image of the available young uninhibited female that is part of what the LADED culture was embodying. It was very much along the lines of what it is to be a LAD, but it's that female part of being a youthful person that was explored in that way. And we didn't look at that time at the consequences of carrying out um nights out in that way um it became

something that we've only recently started to look back on and think this is wrong yeah and then you write a a comedy tour about it uh on which we we can't wait to all come and see um there's this idea of the unhinged unhinged un can't say the word, get my teeth in. Uninhibited female, Angela. How did society take to these uninhibited women? It was largely seen at the time in the mid to late 90s as being a marketable persona for women. So you had quite a lot of commercialization of that image. There were TV

shows like The Girly Show and quite a lot of those Friday evening programs on Channel 4, which were exploring or exploiting the Ladette culture at the time. So the media-generated perception of Ladette culture was entirely positive at that point, and it's only later on that it starts to be demonised. Shappi, what were the personal dangers for you at this time? I think the idea that if you didn't go far enough, you weren't being fun, led to, I'm just talking personally,

led to me doing stuff that I felt were against my values, that weren't boundaried. I had no boundaries whatsoever. I mean, I wouldn't have known what the word boundary meant. It would just have relied, dependent. I don't know it was just looking back at my 90s um there was a lot of shame I got thrown out of a nightclub when I was 18 um which I started I wrote a book called Nina's Not Okay it's based now but it's absolutely based on me in the 90s and in the first scene Nina gets thrown out of a nightclub and that was absolutely me dealing with that me and all my friends giggled about it

but I was so full of shame and I didn't even tell another human being about what happened that night in that club with that guy until I was in my 40s and so I don't know what's empowering about that and another thing is I was diagnosed with ADHD. ADHD and drink I now realize drink is used as medication by people who are undiagnosed so it was all a big fat mess and though I had incredible fun, mostly dancing and going to Glastonbury and all the other festivals. But a lot of the emotional intelligence that we have now, a lot of the ideas about mental health and safe care that we have now simply didn't exist. And so, so much of the 90s for me was really, really painful. But, you know, also I made great friends and had lots of fun and now you've made the tour you've got a tour out of it as well so out of it that I've

just very seriously talked about yeah I um there you go come to the do you know what it is can I be really honest with you talk about in my tour I can't really say on the radio fine good save something for us to come and see you live. Very personal and very rude. So yeah, so there we are. We would expect nothing, we'd expect nothing less from you Shappi. Thank you for talking to me this morning on Warmers Out and to you Professor Angela Smith. It sounds like it's going to be a good old therapy session for those of us who lived through it. Lots of your texts and tweets coming through about all the things we're talking about. Mark says this all happened in 1976 with punk.

The Laudette culture was just hanging on to the coattails. And Ursula says, I probably would have called myself a Laudette in the late 90s. I was determined to have as much fun as the boys seemed to be having. All feels a bit embarrassing and unfeminist now. And on to making excuses. Someone says here, for many years, my husband and I used to host a party to watch the Eurovision Song Contest each year. One one year we suffered a miscarriage a week before the party we felt we couldn't say why we were cancelling the party and just said there was a family issue

i've always been upset that we didn't feel we could be more open about our loss as for as the real reason we told friends later but i think we were more concerned about not causing embarrassment for everybody else rather than being honest. And that's, you know, there's a whole conversation about how we talk about or don't talk about miscarriage, which I know we will be talking about on Women's Hour at some point in the future. But now, Mary Ward was a 17th century Catholic nun who actively championed education for girls and even spent time in prison for her cause. Now almost 400 years after her death, Mary Ward's legacy lives on via a network of almost 200 Mary Ward schools worldwide, including St Mary's School in Cambridge. She's considered the first sister of feminism and a pioneer of female missionary work. To discuss the life of Mary Ward is Sister Jane Livesy, General Superior of the Congregation of Jesus,

the worldwide congregation of religious sisters founded by Mary Ward, and to Charlotte Avery, Headmistress of St Mary's School in Cambridge. Morning to you, Beth. Sister Jane, let me come to you first. Let's find out about Mary Ward, this 17th century nun. Who was she? Well, it's a good question, Anita, because she's a very well kept secret. She was an English woman, as you say, in the 17th century who was a Catholic and therefore lived in times of persecution. And she felt a call to follow a religious vacation, went abroad, turned out not

to be the right thing. But in doing that, she came to understand that God was calling her to something different. She said to some other thing. At that time, the Catholic Church, women in the Catholic Church who wanted to live a religious life, cloistered they weren't they couldn't govern themselves they couldn't actively participate in any mission or ministry like education so she in a sense uh decided that her world had new new needs and when they needed new answers but unfortunately, the Catholic Church wasn't of the same mind at the time. And what were her new needs? What did she want to do? First of all, she wanted to, she was very convinced of the primacy of educating girls, young women, because as she said, there is no such difference between men and women, that women, may they not do great things and I hope

in God it will be seen in time to come that women will do much well that's a pretty good quote from somebody back in 1612 uh so um and and she could see that potential she was ahead she was ahead of the game though wasn't she yeah absolutely did you have too far ahead for her own good. Well, yeah, too far ahead because she didn't get much support, did she? No, sadly not. Her sisters were called, quote, galloping girls, which after the last couple of speakers, I kind of was thinking that's kind of the 17th century equivalent of being Laudette. The galloping girls. And the galloping girls, I mean, this is what I find remarkable. They went on foot across the Alps to go and talk to the Pope about their idea to educate women. Well, she went across, well, she walked across the Alps more than once, and we've just had the 400th anniversary of the first walk.

She did about five or six times, we think, all together with companions. What she wanted to do was convince the Pope that she could found a religious congregation of the open kind, we call it apostolic, that the, say, for example, the Jesuits had, that women could and should be able to live that kind of open life, committed to their mission of education, in a context where the church simply wasn't willing to see that women could play that kind of role, still less govern themselves. So what was the decision made? What did the Pope do? Well, ultimately, there was a period of great growth in late 1610s and early 20s. But ultimately, she made a lot of enemies. And in 1631,

the Pope imprisoned her as a heretic, to be fair, not in prison, just in somebody else's convent. But anyway, and the Institute was suppressed and remained suppressed for a couple of hundred years. It's a remarkable story. I'm so pleased we're talking about her on Wom Hour this morning. Yes, thank you. So am I. Don't have to thank us. It's just what the hour's all about. I'm going to bring Charlotte Avery in, who's the head at St Mary's School in Cambridge. What does her legacy mean to you and the school, Charlotte? Good morning. Well, we think

that St Mary's is a brilliant role model for our students because, as Jane said, she had this radical vision for social justice, in her case, for education of young women. But as Jane has said, it was not straightforward to fulfil. belief and confidence to deal with setbacks alongside a very strong academic education. So that enables them in turn to go out and make a positive difference for the greater good of the 21st century society as opposed to 17th. Tell us about her circle of friends and how this is linked to St Mary's School today. So when Mary Ward was imprisoned, Jane has said in this attempt to silence her work in her school she relied very heavily on this group of friends and she wrote to these female companions using coded language and in lemon juice so that what she had written couldn't be read immediately but the letters were instructions about how to run the schools and how to support and guide the pupils.

So our ethos is distilled into 12 Mary Ward characteristics. And one of them is supporting each other throughout the school. So it's not like fluffy, just being nice to each other. This is about really radical friendship. So we attempt each day to model supportive networks of friendship and trust based on what Mary Ward did. But also, even more widely, there are really about 200 Mary Ward schools around the world today in the UK, in Ireland, Germany, Spain, India, Nepal, Australia. I could go on. You get the picture picture and we have links with those schools so during lockdown our students have been communicating by zoom with our sister school in Kathmandu and sharing films with one of our sister schools in Australia and gap year students in our boarding community frequently come from Australia sister schools so the circle of friends is both immediate and wider is a wonderful idea and a wonderful metaphor.

Sister Jane, how unusual is her story when it comes to 17th century nuns? Not so much unusual, I'd say, Anita, as unique. I mean, she was a pioneer in that sense too, that a lot of women's congregations who later were founded they looked to her she was absolutely a pioneer I don't think she would have thought of herself as a feminist because that kind of you know vocabulary wasn't there but it was that absolute conviction that that women could do what what needed to be done for other women and that they didn't need to be governed, guided by, in this case, the church. And that actually has to be said still means men.

So I think she was literally unique and also unique in being an English woman in this sense. There's nobody, there's no other congregation that was founded in the same way by somebody like that, particularly in such challenging circumstances. And it wasn't until 1909 that she was acknowledged as the founder of the Mary Ward Institute. And it'd be another hundred years until she was finally honoured by the church in 2009 how important was that moment oh fantastic um just extraordinary we were i went to rome on a pilgrimage for that and there were a thousand of us from all over the world uh of her sisters her followers um but i think it the recognition was really important for

her but it was also important in a sense for all women in the church, because it was something was said earlier on, she was recorded, one of the popes said, that incomparable woman, and that's, that for me, that says everything, that incomparable woman whom England in her darkest and bloodiest hour gave to the church, that from a pope whose predecessor had put her in prison and called her a heretic. So the good, the encouraging thing about that is sometimes even the church can admit it made mistakes. And Charlotte, what would Mary Ward make of her continued influence over girls education today and your girls today? What do you think she'd make of that? Well, I think she'd be thrilled. As Jane already said, she had this great sign great sign bite by god's grace women in time to come

will do much and as i say to all our pupils at st mary's they are this living legacy with a capacity to do much and she had another great catchphrase be seekers of truth and doers of justice. And so I like to encourage our pupils to go out into the world as workers, employers, leaders, thinkers, partners, parents, and to do great things for the greater good as a wonderful part of Mary Ward's legacy today. It's been brilliant hearing all about her life. Thank you very much, Sister Jane Livesey and Charlotte Avery, who's the headmistress of St Mary's School in Cambridge.

Now, for any listeners who may have suffered baby loss, this following interview might be difficult to hear. On the 17th of November 2019, Grey Atticus Fox was born, nine weeks early to author Georgina Lucas and her husband, Mike. Weighing just three and a half pounds, Nine weeks early to author Georgina Lucas and her husband Mike. Weighing just three and a half pounds, he was taken to the hospital's neonatal intensive care unit and put on a ventilator. But less than two weeks later, a devastating prognosis left Georgina and Mike with an agonising decision of whether to withdraw Grey's life support. The 21 days that they shared is movingly documented in Georgina Lucas's extraordinary memoir, If Not For You, and Georgina joins me now. Georgina, welcome to Woman's Hour.

Thank you for talking to me about your, I've described it as earth shatteringly heartbreaking, but also it's so full of love. And I want to start right at the beginning of the book, if I may, because at the beginning of the book, we meet yourself and Mike and your 17-month-old son, and you are on a break in Whitstable. It's the end of November, a few months before your due date, a couple of months, and you start bleeding. You're rushed to a local hospital and you're given an emergency C-section at just 31 weeks. So what happened in those first 24 hours? Hello. Nice to be here. Thank you for having me. So Gray was immediately taken to the NICU.

I was in recovery and kept saying, when can I see him? When can I see him? When can I see him? And they were saying, you can't go. You can't move your legs yet. And eventually at 4 a.m., I was wheeled around to see him? When can I see him? When can I see him? And they were saying, you can't go, you can't move your legs yet. And eventually at 4am, I was wheeled around to see him. And he was in an incubator, plugged into all sorts of wires and tubes and monitors everywhere and bleeps. It was extraordinary. I couldn't quite compute that this was my baby that had been in my tummy and was really supposed to still be in my tummy. It was a huge shock on all sorts of levels. And you're told that it's not uncommon for premature babies to put on a ventilator. So when did you realise that the prognosis would become more difficult? So yeah, they say, you know, don't worry, that's kind of relatively common. Let's see how it goes. The next morning, one of his doctors very much at that point, let's wait and see, you know, there's no cause for panic yet. And so you've got this waiting period, you're waiting for the results to come back.

And that's the sort of time that you were able to bond with with Gray, with Mike, your husband. So how was that period? and you weren't actually able to hold him for the first week were you no we didn't hold him until he was six days old so that is very strange my my oldest finn who was 17 months old at that point you know was put straight on my tummy seconds after being taken out of me um with grey it's this totally different thing where you do hand holding and you're taught how to do all these things and told not to stroke them because they associate that with finding veins but still we could form this bond with him and we read to him and he'd open his eyes and look up at us and he had in amongst this crazy you know stressful environment, this amazing serenity and calm.

Every time I looked at him, I felt like he was looking at me saying, it's okay. It's okay, mommy. We're going to be okay. And how did you feed him? Via a little tube with a test tube that I had to hold up. So I was lucky I had milk supply, which isn't always the case with premature babies. So that was amazing. So I pumped milk and they fed it to him in a little syringe that I held above his incubator. And then he could taste a little bit via a cotton bud that we would sweep into his mouth and he'd immediately suck straight in. So that was amazing and very strange. And also Mike, your husband, the first time he changed his nappy as well, that was very

delicate the way he had to learn how to do that. Yeah, everything like that was, you know, we were watched by nurses and told, do this carefully, do that carefully, you need to fold that there, you need to make sure that these wires are tucked in there. It was all a total learning curve, the steepest learning curve of my life because everything that is normally, I guess, to some level, instinct at home, you're being told, no, this is what they need. And, you know, the levels are being checked every two seconds by nurses to adjust things that he needs.

And you write that you felt redundant, that you weren't doing enough for him. Why did you feel like that? I think you're watching, you know, he had a nurse who was solely looking after him and they did everything for him and they were watching all of his levels and they were monitoring everything. And I felt in many ways like I was a bystander.

As you said, we didn't hold him until he was six days old so all of those things that you I guess to some degree I took for granted with my first son are suddenly completely different because you're being watched you're being you know not not in a in an unpleasant way but they're very delicate these premature babies. And then after two weeks, you eventually got Gray's test results back. What did the doctors tell you? So the doctors took us into a quiet room and told us that the diagnosis was devastating. He had a very rare chromosome disorder, along with a series of very severe brain abnormalities that meant he would be unlikely to speak or see or hear or move, really. He would be unlikely to ever be taken off a ventilator because his brain couldn't connect with his lungs to make him breathe. It was very severe. The doctor had tears in her eyes, as she told me.

I don't think any of them, like us, expected it to be as serious as it was. And so how agonising was the decision that you had to make and how did you come to it? I think the doctors were amazing in the way that they presented all of the information for us but were very objective in the way they approached that and I remember Mike saying to me in the car on the way home after we'd received the diagnosis on the first day George we have to take the pain we will take the pain he doesn't have to and I think that really guided our decision which which was agonizing but actually I think in in that place it felt like the only right decision for him because we loved him and because we we didn't want him to be in pain.

That term, that really stood out for me when I first read that, when you spoke to Mike and you made this decision that we take the pain for him. And ultimately, that conversation you had really stood out for me is when you talked about, would it be selfish to keep him alive just for you? Yeah. And I think that was one of the difficult things is you're thinking am I thinking that I want to switch off his life support because I'm frightened of the impact that his life might have on mine but then I'm also scared that if I keep him here that's a selfish decision as well because I want him here for me it was um you know as Mike said there was there was no good option at all.

Georgina, the book is so beautifully written and so devastating. I've never wept. I've got it in my hands quite like I have reading a book whilst I was reading this book. But there's so much love in the book as well um there's love for so many different people but I want to start by the way you describe the staff in the hospital because they become your extended family don't they? Totally they became you know friends, sisters, mums, therapists, everything rolled into one they were all phenomenal phenomenal people mostly mostly women just as it turned out they did amazing things you know he had a little diary next

to his incubator that they'd write notes in after they'd been on shift overnight there was one nurse who was very artistic who made little footprints and turned them into a butterfly and would write a note um they you know they each of the babies had little octopuses in next to them because they like to hold the tentacles because they're like an umbilical cord um and they when we knew he was going to die they arranged for us to take him outside and they brought this pram and set it up and we pushed him around the hospital luckily it was this beautifully sunny day and he felt the air on his face and the sun and that you know just that ordinary moment that I have taken so for granted with my other two

children was everything and these these phenomenal women knew that you know it makes taking it made taking Finn to the park look like a walk in the park because you know he had to have oxygen tanks and a neonatal doctor and two nurses escorting him but he went outside and that was so special. And you describe that in the book and you also describe the moment where you are with the three that it's just you together with Grey and you decide that this is the moment? Yes. We had moved him to a separate room and we knew that that was going to be the day that we were going to take away his life support. And the nurses had been saying that through that week he had been deteriorating a bit. He'd needed some extra support.

And then there just came a moment where it felt the right thing and they took out his ventilator and left us with him and it was very surreal because he was dying but in many ways it was the most normal moment we'd had we weren't supervised he didn't have wires and tubes i could see his mouth for the first time these tiny little rosebud lips that had been covered by strapping and ventilator tape. And there was, I think, you know, we were incredibly lucky that there was real peace in his death. I don't think he was in pain at that point. And we were able to have these very, very precious moments, just us three together.

And it was the three of you together in that moment but you have this immense and again you you feel the love through the book support network of your family who were there at the drop of a hat when they knew what was happening absolutely we were phenomenally lucky in the support that we had around us from our families. And my mum came and looked after Finn, who I think thought the whole thing was a great holiday because aunties and uncles and granny and grandpas kept popping up and they were all bringing him presents. But they really supported us through that time. And afterwards, you know, they all really keep grey alive in our memories. And that is an incredibly special and precious thing. I really know how lucky that is. You also talk about grief in the book. And there are two things that you say that really stood out

for me. One of them is you say just navigating grief is taking the goat path. But you also said this thing that I actually had to stop, put the book down and really think about it, that you describe grief as love, that grief is love. Yeah, it is. I think it is love. You know, I remember someone saying to my mom after her father died, grief is the price we pay for love. But really, it is love. And I think the reason I talk about Gray and the reason I wanted to write all his life down is it was a love story. It still is. You know, it all comes from this phenomenal love and this incredible privilege of having him and knowing him. And the goat track, I think, was something that a friend of my dad's who's a psychologist told him and he told me, which is this idea, you you know I think you picture

perhaps a grief journey or path that implies some kind of direction and actually I found you step basically into the unknown and this goat track idea is that you know you might come to a very dangerous precipice around a corner or thorns or whatever but you just keep taking those steps and the goats trust the trail. Has writing the memoir helped you to process the experience? I think it really really has. I started writing it in January after he died when I was on maternity leave without him and it was incredibly therapeutic I think getting it all down. I think a lot of it was, you know, in many ways, it was very sad and very traumatic, of course. But there was so much joy and so much love woven in amongst that. And Mike and I often say, you know, in many ways, those three weeks of Grey's life were kind of some of the simplest,

because all of those little things that I worry about, that we worry about on a day-to-day basis just faded away and there was us and our families and him and Finn and these incredible incredible doctors and nurses looking after us and we saw amazing things. And how are you all now? We're good we're happy which I think is in many ways unexpected, because I remember a time when I thought perhaps we would never feel happy again. But we are. And I think in many ways, living through Grey's life and death has taught me to find joy in small things that perhaps I might have taken for granted before um you say this one thing in the book i'm frustrated that i can't seem to articulate the way in which strands of acute pain and deep anguish are inextricably intertwined with those of purest joy and clearest love while this memoir articulates it beautifully georgina thank you so much for coming on and talking to me on woman's hour um the book is called if not for you it really is um. Thank you very

much. That was Georgina Lucas. And if you have been affected by any of the issues discussed in this interview, there are links on our website. Now for some music. Woman to Woman is a collaboration of some of the UK's most celebrated female musical artists, Beverly Craven, Judy Zouk and Julia Fordham, initially formed in 2018. The trio embarked on a successful tour in 2019 and released a self-titled album. Well, I'm joined now by Julia Fordham, who is also an acclaimed artist in her own right

with hits such as Love Moves in Mysterious Ways and Happy Ever After. Woman to Woman are back with two new singles, Thank You for Being a Friend and Juniper Tree, a new tour which is due to begin in October this year, and a new member, singer-songwriter Rumour. Let's being a friend. Thank you for being a friend. And when we die, we float away. Julia Fordham, welcome to Woman's Hour.

What time is it in LA? Thank you. It is hurtling towards 2am. I feel very rock and roll. I've even worn a shirt that says rock on it. Yeah, you look rock and roll. Well, you are rock and roll. You haven't gone to bed yet, surely. Let's talk about Woman to Woman. Tell me how you all got together and decided to collaborate. Well, our first round of Woman to Woman was an idea by Beverly Craven.

I think most people know Beverly from her smash hit song, Promise Me. And Bev had noticed, we all have the same agent, that Judy Zooka, myself and Bev were all playing art centres with one musician, which is often the path of the singer-songwriter. I think when you've had your moment, you know, where you've been in the top 40, you've been on Radio 1, then Radio 2, and then you find yourself in the trenches in the art centres. And Bev said, well, what if we all joined together and maybe we could hire a band? Maybe we could go back and do beautiful theatre tours. And she suggested it to Jude and myself.

And we were like, this is a brilliant idea and we should absolutely do it. So that was how the first incarnation of Woman to Woman came to pass. It was a brilliant idea and you all came together. So what is it like where you've all had these careers, navigated the music industry as women, solo artists, and all of a sudden you are here together. Finally, you've got a gang. We've got a gang. We love being in the gang.

And one of the things that was especially rewarding musically was as soon as Beverly had had this idea, I started to obsess about the sound that I could make with Beverly Craven and Judy Zouk. And I was so excited at the thought of the beautiful voice of Judy Zouk in the middle. And Beverly has this beautiful, clear high tone on top. And my speaking voice and my singing voice is quite low. And I was right. There was a sound there. So once we had booked all the theatres that immediately sold out and we became very, very sort of energised and inspired, that turned into, well, what if we all write like three or four songs each? We do an album. And that's how it sort of started to snowball. So when we got to the shows, we were not only just doing our own hits

and doing the backing vocals for the other singers, we were also singing these new original songs together in three-part harmony, which for me was, I would almost say, not a career highlight, but a musical life highlight. I mean, I was such a huge fan of Judy Zouk, as was Beverly, that when we're singing Judy's hit songs, we'd be like looking at each other going, is this really happening that we're doing the BVs for the actual Judy Zouk? I mean,

every night it never got old. It was like, you know, the first tour, the second tour, I was still so enchanted by singing with these women. And now, you know, joins our fourth member, Rumour. So how did that come about? You've already got a super group and then Rumour joins. Well, I'm a fan of Rumour anyway. And Bev suggested, you know, what if we go out again? Is it time to bring somebody else on? Just sort of energetically, not just for the sound of it,

but also just for the interest of it, for the fans. Because if you've already done two sold out tours, are they going to start thinking, well, we'd like to hear or see something a bit different now. And also for ourselves, for Judy and Beverly and myself, we want to have that electrical charge of creativity ourselves. And the minute you bring someone else in, that happens. Ruma has the most beautiful voice. She has an exquisite voice. She's a wonderful songwriter. And she was the only person we discussed. And as soon as Bev and Jude, they zoomed me and they're like, come on, what do you think? I'm like, it's a brilliant idea. I love her songs. I think she'd be perfect.

And we were delighted that she immediately said yes. Well, I think we need to hear some more of these delicious four-part harmonies because you've got two new singles out thank you for being friend and juniper tree and i know you wrote the latter um so let's have a listen then we'll talk about the inspiration i used to be the rose of sharon the happy flower in the field My life flew by, how did that happen? I was the only... It's got timeless quality.

Oh, it's so delicious to listen to. You talk about the Rose of Sharon and a beauty fading. Do you think there's a problem in the music industry when it comes to women and age? Well, you know, I think hopefully that the woman-to-woman band is an example that there isn't. I think also we are singer-songwriters. It's a little easier for us.

We're not regarded or seen as pop stars. I think there's a lot more pressure if you brand yourself as a pop star to remain looking a certain way. But when I was writing Juniper Tree that was inspired by an article that I was reading in the New Yorker about burnout and how burnout has actually always been. And it was first mentioned in biblical times when Elijah lay down under the juniper tree. And he was like, I have had enough. And I just found this story very riveting. And I thought, well, if Elijah is lying under the juniper tree, what are the women doing at this time? And I did a sort of deep search. And in biblical times, to be a woman regarded as the Rose of Sharon or the Lily of Jezreel was the greatest praise that you could have. And it made me think of us four women who in our prime, you know, we all had these like beautiful videos.

And I think we're in our musical and intellectual prime for sure. it just sort of struck me as a notion what an interesting song that that could make that we're all at this time in our life where we are, you know, our beauty might be fading but our creativity is actually bubbling forth. I would argue that your beauty is just getting better and better. Personally, Julia, you, all of you, just outstanding. I have been thinking about this super group and all I keep thinking about is,

oh, imagine the gossip they've got between the four of them. Tell me you sit there sharing notes on the things that you've experienced in the music industry. Well, we do. There was a lot of that at the beginning, especially when, because we'd never met. I'd never met Beverly or Judy. And when we first got together,

it was like absolutely pull up a check. Do you remember that this happened to you? Come on, come on. It's only women's hour. We can share any secrets here. Well, I mean, we do like to get on the old Zoom and have a bit of a catch up, that's for sure. You know, it's wonderful to have the camaraderie

and I really enjoyed that part of it because I've done so many projects where it's quite isolating. I just recently did a tour of the East Coast where I was back in the singer-songwriter sort of art centre type venues. It's me. It's one musician. It's two guys in a van. I love the guys. It's not quite the same as this experience of being bonded with these women, you know, who are such a match in so many ways. No, there's nothing quite like that. And you're going back on tour in November. Julia, best of luck.

Thank you so much for speaking to us on Woman's Hour. And just to end with one of your tweets, Kate got in touch to say, I was a teenager at the time of Laudetz and never understood what was being feminist about being like the boys. I think Laudetz were invented by a few men in the media. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. All right, here we go, Oti.

Five, six, seven, eight. Dance. It has the power to connect and to entertain. And in a new series for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds, I explore the iconic dancers who have been doing just that.

Dance, it really, I think, saved my life. Join me, Oti Mabuse, as I delve into the lives of the innovators and the mall breakers who have changed dance forever. Gene Kelly was this working class guy that I just really connected with that. Oti Mabuse's Dancing Legends on Radio 4 and BBC Sounds. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.