Woman's Hour - Maternal mental health, Ellie Goldstein, Kneelers, Black Ops, Power List

Episode Date: May 4, 2023

An estimated one in five new and expectant mums develops perinatal mental illnesses according to the Royal College of Psychiatrists. Whilst every pregnant woman should be screened for mental health issues at their 10-week antenatal appointment, new data from NHS England shows one in six NHS Trusts are struggling to report if they are doing so. Anita is joined by Dr Trudi Seneviratne, Consultant Perinatal Psychiatrist and Registrar of the Royal College of Psychiatrists and Hayley Johnson, a mum who experienced debilitating anxiety after giving birth.It's been a remarkable week for women's sport, with record breaking crowds. Anita is joined by one of the women on the Woman's Hour Power List 2023 who has been banging the drum of women's sport for over a decade, Tammy Parlour, co-founder and CEO of the Women's Sports Trust.For the first time, the May edition of British Vogue features disabled models on its cover.  One of these is Ellie Goldstein, the first model with Down's syndrome to ever star.  She is one of fashion’s rising stars, advocating inclusivity across the industry. Anita talks to Ellie and her mum, Yvonne about Ellie's work.The British tradition of kneeler making, hand-stitching kneeling cushions in churches, is a type of folk art that has been long overlooked. The  earliest examples are from the 17th century and the reigns of Charles I and II.  Will the coronation of a new king revive interest in this languishing art?  Anita meets Elizabeth Bingham, author of Kneelers.  A new BBC six part comedy thriller Black Ops centres around Dom and Kay, two Police Community Support Officers in East London who join the Metropolitan police. In the hope of cleaning up their neighbourhood, they find themselves working undercover to infiltrate a criminal gang. Gbemisola Ikumelo, perhaps best known for the comedy sketch show Famalam is the co-creator. She talks to Anita about writing and starring in the series. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Bob Nettles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. How are your craft skills? I'm going to be finding out about the old folk art of kneeler making. They're the cushions used to kneel on in churches covered in detailed tapestry. But this morning, I'd like to hear about your own proud attempts at making. Let's hear about the pot you've thrown, the wobbly vase that has pride of place on the mantelpiece,

the lopsided cardi you knitted, or maybe it's a perfect cardi. Have you cross-stitched, crocheted, quilted? Not only would I love to hear about your efforts, I would also quite like to see a pic too. So drop me a note. Let's celebrate your creativity. I'll be like your proud mum, telling the world about your efforts. I would also quite like to see a pic too. So drop me a note. Let's celebrate your creativity. I'll be like your proud mum telling the world about your achievements. You can get in touch with me in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can also contact us via social media. You can email me by going to our website or you can WhatsApp or even voice note me using 03700 100 444. There's also a very funny new cop comedy show

starting on BBC One tomorrow night. It's called Black Ops. I'm going to be joined by the star and writer Bemisola Ikemelo. Model Ellie Goldstein will be telling us

how she feels about being the first model with Down syndrome to appear on the front cover of Vogue. Can't wait to speak to her. And another game changer from our power list,

Tammy Parler, co-founder and CEO of the Women's Sports Trust, will be in the studio too. But I would love to hear from you on anything you hear on the programme today, but particularly your craft stories. And remember, don't forget the photo, the text number 84844. An estimated one in five new and expectant mums develop perinatal mental illnesses such as depression, post-traumatic stress disorder and psychosis, according to the Royal College of Psychiatrists. Is this something you can relate to? Did it happen to you? Share your experience with me. Get in touch. Email via the website and that text number again, 84844. Whilst every pregnant woman should be screened for mental health issues at their 10-week antenatal appointment, new data from NHS England shows one in six NHS trusts are struggling to report if they're doing so and therefore following the clinical guidelines. This is despite mental

illness being the leading cause of maternal death in the first year after birth? Well, to discuss this, I'm joined now by Trudy Senvaratna, consultant perinatal psychiatrist and registrar of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, and Hayley Johnson, a mum of two who experienced debilitating anxiety after giving birth to her second child in late 2021. Welcome to Woman's Hour, both of you. Trudy, I'm going to come to you first because it sounds shocking that mental illness is the leading cause of maternal death in the first year after birth. Could you help us understand what's happening? Just unpack that a little bit for us. Of course, of course. And good morning to you. And just thank you so much for shining a light on this incredibly important topic.

You're absolutely right. This is shocking's absolutely it's beyond shocking actually that uh women taking their own lives when they're pregnant or postnatal in that first year after having a baby is is uh the leading is the leading cause of death for women of direct deaths and that is a statistic that uh hasn't changed in over 25 years since I've been practicing. It was the leading cause back in 2000 of something called the Confidential Inquiries into Maternal Deaths at the time. And it is still the leading cause.

And in fact, the data is getting worse. So the numbers have gone up in the last report that came out in November last year and showing some really frightening data that people are not even being diagnosed but we know that there are histories of trauma for some of these women yeah and there are younger women being affected so it's really frightening yeah and we'll get into exactly why nothing has changed like you said in the 20 odd years that you've been doing what you do but what is what's happening to the women like what what's what are they going through what do we know it's really yeah it's really complicated

I mean first of all you know childbirth is a huge stress even though it's you know potentially a joyous event for so many actually it's not necessarily a planned event for many many women there are a number of you know enormous social factors happening there may or may not be a partner there may or may not be a partner. There may or may not be awful things like domestic violence and other terrible things like rape, you know, is where the baby is coming from. But even if it's a happy planned pregnancy, it's a very, very stressful life event. There's a huge amount that changes with a woman's own personal life, her job, whether she has a job or not, her social factors, whether there's money or not, worries about whether she'll be a good enough mother.

If someone has a history of mental health problems, there's a vulnerability there again to, you know, the depression coming back, anxiety coming back, lots of hormonal and biological factors that come into play, the physicality of what happens to the woman during pregnancy and afterwards, you know, there's physical trauma that what happens to the woman during pregnancy and afterwards, you know, there's physical trauma that can happen during the process of delivery. So it's really complicated, you know, what we call biological factors, social factors, the woman's own psychological makeup, social factors, and then, you know, actually stigma, people being frightened to come forward if something is starting to go wrong, which we might go into as we move on I'm going to bring Hayley in just to get get Hayley's experience of what happened and then we'll get into what what the trusts are or are not doing about this Hayley help me tell

so you how were you feeling after the birth of your second child Hayley um well I had another home birth and that had all gone okay but he went into the NICU because they had some concerns about him and it just was I couldn't process it I my anxiety had been there all along and it just took over um and yeah I couldn't eat I couldn't sleep I didn't know how to help myself and it was a really scary scary time and so what did you do did you get help did you did you speak to anybody it took me a few days um as things progressively got worse because I just didn't know if there was any help out there I think I felt convinced that they were going to take my children away because I was having these thoughts and these intrusive feelings and thoughts um so eventually i did ask for help but it was a

really hard decision to make not knowing what there was and if it was going to make me look like a bad parent that's a really interesting thing make you look like a bad parent i bet there's lots of people listening to that who can relate to what you've just said but here's the thing when you were suffering the anxiety um did you even realize what was happening that you were suffering you know some kind of mental illness or some some anxiety that extreme anxiety yeah I mean in the beginning I thought it was just normal it was normal to feel worried and concerned about my baby um but it got to the point where I realised I was having intrusive thoughts. I wasn't in my right mind. And, yeah, something had tipped and I really wasn't doing well.

I wasn't coping. And you hadn't experienced that with your first child? No, I'd had the anxiety. I think a lot of parents, a lot of people have just anxiety in their day to day, but it had never come to this head before. And how did you eventually get help? I called my midwives. So I called the midwife and they got me back into the maternity hospital. And then they got mental health professionals in and I had assessments and lots of support once I was there.

So you got the support, Hayley. But Trudy, what we're finding is that that's not the case for everybody. No, that's right. So, I mean, it's amazing, Hayley. Thank you so much for sharing your story, because actually it is only by people like you sharing what's happened to you that we we start to break down that stigma and start to reach out to more women who perhaps like you will feel frightened to come forward but you're absolutely right that the although we've moved forward in the services and the availability of these services so specialist perinatal services across the uk particularly in eng but also across Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland things are moving and we are so much further ahead than say back in 2015-16 it's still postcode lottery unfortunately so we know that across the country and across the UK

that there are problems to access to services and there are delays to getting screening appointments and some areas where women don't seem to be we're hearing anecdotally that some women are not being screened in the antenatal period when they have that first booking appointment which is a perfect opportunity to at 10 weeks at 10 weeks it's a perfect opportunity when someone is pregnant at that first antenatal booking appointment to screen for. So what's your reaction to that? What's your reaction to the fact that they're not? Again, very, very concerning, because on the one hand, it's great that we're moving forwards in expanding the services. And I know that actually, you know, maternity services are embedding the NICE guidance and the clinical guidance to make this routine.

But what we're hearing is that it's not routine and we just need to see the data and the evidence from NHS England, for example, to work out why this is not happening routinely. Because if we don't know this, we can't really change services and we can't reach out to women who are not coming forward for help. So we don't know, because why it's not happening, especially if mental illness is the leading cause of direct maternal death within the year of having a baby. Absolutely, absolutely. So the screening is... So first of all, women have to be able to come forward and ask for help.

That's really, really critical. That's really important. You know, tell their families, tell their friends, tell their partner, come to a GP, midwife, health visitor, just as you heard Hayley doing. And but we also need systems in place. And we do have really solid systems now, like NICE guidance and clinical guidance that says actually there should be routine screening and that should be happening and that's a good way of picking people up right at the beginning to make sure that we're picking up people who are vulnerable to relapse or might be poorly with their mental health at that point at the beginning of the pregnancy. And what can happen to mothers if these mental health issues aren't addressed? Well if they're not addressed we know that actually I say that the impact is devastating it's absolutely devastating so the maternal suicide data tells us actually at the worst

end of the spectrum you have terrible happening, like mothers taking their lives both in pregnancy and afterwards. But in between, there are all levels of things happening. So a woman can be struggling and suffering in silence, which is absolutely terrible. We know that there is both a short and a long term impact for herself. The mental health and mental illness can rumble on get worse deteriorates it can also unfortunately impact on the relationship with the baby and indeed that developing baby or child as a child gets bigger and can also impact on the partner and the family when there is a partner and family. So the impact is devastating

and on the entire family network as things go forward. And we know it's really critical to intervene early, as early as possible to prevent things deteriorating. And we have some wonderful treatments now available, which can span not only medication, which is safe in pregnancy and in breastfeeding but a whole suite of psychological therapies for the mother the mother baby relationship for the partner um and and a whole suite of social um i call them treatments but more holistic

ways of looking after women yeah i guess it's what you said, Hayley, you know, at what point do you realise that you might need help? Because you don't, you feel you're already feeling vulnerable, you're feeling like you're being the bad parent, maybe you don't even understand what's happening to you. You know, at what point do you go, actually, I need to step out and speak to somebody? Did you speak to someone in your family before you spoke to the midwives yeah my husband was really supportive but again he didn't really know what we should do um and I did go into a mother and baby unit and I didn't know that they existed I didn't know that that was a means of support that I could reach out for and it saved my life because it had got to a point where if I hadn't reached for help I'm not sure if I would still have been around to to carry on caring for my children and yeah it it's a life-changing

thing to be able to access that support or it was for me anyway. And how are you now? Much better yeah and I credit that to the midwives and the mental health professionals and the psychiatrists in the in the unit and I was so fortunate to have been offered a place there because there aren't enough um and there isn't enough awareness of them and I don't think there's enough funding for them and they're fantastic. Really an amazing resource. What advice, Hayley, would you give to other mothers or expectant mothers who might be listening right now and, you know, nodding along with your experiences or struggling themselves? Yeah, the best thing you can do is speak out. I mean, sometimes just saying how you're speaking to someone that can offer you more support it's the best thing you can do for you and your family the best thing for your children to to ask for the help.

Ask for help. Trudy what are you calling on NHS England to do? Very soon I mean I want to say that NHS England have already done an amazing job in supporting the transformation of services across England by the funding that's been available. But at this point in time, we really want to see that data. We want to see that data properly across the antenatal screening data so that we have a very strong idea about where the screening is happening, where it's not happening happening and then we can tease out actually why is why are some women not being screened or why why are some women not coming forward when they do indeed have current mental health problems or a history of mental health problems or or even a family history so data is really powerful we've got the data and by looking at the data we we can you know

make the world even better for pregnant women so you've got the data it just needs to be analyzed or with the day yeah absolutely and then that can influence sort of ongoing transformation of our already you know the amazing story that we have in the uk for transforming perinatal mental health stories uh services it's something that actually we should be really proud of but but we need to keep improving them. There is work to do and we need to, you know, and not shy away from the terrifying data around maternal suicide being a leading cause of death for women. Well, I'd like to thank you both for joining me to talk to me about that. Dr. Trudy Senvaratna and Hayley Johnson, thank you this

morning. We contacted NHS England and a spokesperson gave us the following statement. Record numbers of women in England are benefiting from specialist perinatal mental health support with an estimated 51,000 new mums treated over the last year, up nearly 60% compared to two years ago,

with every local health system now having access to a specialist community perinatal mental health team. So any woman worried about her mental health should speak with her GP or midwife as support and treatment is available.

We're working with the small number of trusts that are not fully publishing data on the mental health screening of pregnant women to ensure that this changes. And you are getting in touch with your own stories as well. Good morning. I went back to full-time work after the birth of each of my two sons

and suffered with panic attacks and catastrophic thoughts during those first nine months. I'm now 57. Having gone through the menopause can link my panic, anxiety and depression to hormonal changes. I'm certain that my postnatal symptoms were also the result of hormonal change in my body post pregnancy. Someone else has said here, despite a history of mental health issues as a teenager, I wasn't screened at my many prenatal midwife appointments i ended up with a long and traumatic birth and extreme anxiety and fears post-birth i hope you're feeling better now 84844 is the number to text if you'd like to text me about anything you hear on the program keep your craft stories coming

in as well i'll come to those in a. And now it's been a record-breaking week for women's sports on Saturday. The England rugby team clinched the Grand Slam against France in front of a world record crowd at Twickenham. Go on. And on Monday, the Champions League semi-final between Arsenal and Wolfsburg at the Emirates

sold over 60,000 tickets. A British record. And they used to say that no one wanted to watch women's football. I'll just keep reminding people of that. These moments don't happen by accident. It's been a long road for those looking to amplify the women's game. And today I'm delighted to say I'm joined by someone who's been banging the drum for women's sport for over a decade.

Tammy Parler, co-founder and CEO of the Women's Sports Trust. Tammy was on our power List where our judges picked the 30 most remarkable women in sports in the country right now. And she's sitting in front of me in the studio. Welcome to Women's Hour, Tammy. Thanks. It's wonderful to be here. It's great to have you here. Congratulations. Thank you. I want to hear all about your mission at the Women's Sports Trust.

Oh, gosh. Firstly, thank you so much for popping me on the power list. It's kind of, yeah, it's wonderful. You sort of hope that what you're doing is having an impact. I think we all want to just sort of make the world a better place somehow and to be recognised externally is just absolutely wonderful. We set up the charity 10 years ago. We had our birthday last year. And one of the phrases that we coined at the start was we wanted to move women's sport from worthy to irresistible. And really, that's been our focus through the past decade. And oh my gosh, how women's sport is just exploding yeah and the FA Cup has sold

out as well the women's FA Cup coming up has sold out Wembley which that's just come out recently it's just what an incredible journey how do you feel when you hear things like that you've been working away for 10 years and we've now we are where we are yes I mean there's a combination of absolutely delighted and excited but also I have this weird personality and you're always, you know how much more there is to do. And you're always sort of focused on the what next and, you know, the record breaking numbers, absolutely. But it's not sorted. There's still lots to do in that moving from worthy to irresistible. So you sort of just focus on what the next bit of the pie is that needs to shift. So I'm intrigued to know how you do that.

When 10 years ago, because I said it in my opener, you know, when people used to say, well, no one wants to watch women playing football. So how do you start? Where do you begin to start convincing people? Oh, my God. It's, as I say, it's been quite a journey. And for us, it's really been about just following our curiosity. Women's Sport Trust is now one of the most influential women's sport organisations in the UK. But that wasn't our intention at the start. It came from a place of just wanting to give back, wanting to do something worthwhile.

And we were, I am a sportswoman, but sort of not particularly within the industry. So you start trying to do something and you just start asking stupid questions, really, and trying to unearth what's kind of going on. And that's really what we've continued to do all the way through is just continue to be curious, continue to find out what's happening and ask the next question. Oh, come on, Tammy, it's Womazow. Give us some of those conversations. Take us into some of those rooms, some of those boardrooms you've been in.

What have you heard people say to you and what have you said to them in return? At the start, it was really around noticing that people were in silos. So everyone was pointing the finger at everybody else. You had broadcasters and rights holders and media people and everybody and brands and everybody saying it's everybody else's fault. But nobody was really talking to each other. The first sort of thing that we focused on was trying to get everybody in the same room together and trying to shift people's mindsets from seeing it as something that is worthy. And I've gone back to that definition recently. It's a great definition. Yeah, worthy. The dictionary definition is characterized by good intent, but lacking in humor and imagination.

I mean, isn just that's not wonderful yeah but that's kind of where women's sport was a decade ago it was sort of run by outliers it was very volunteer driven there were no sort of budgets around um and and people were really weren't really talking to each other so we started to create these events that got people into a room and try to show women's sport in a different sort of way and get people to talk to each other, sort of stir the pot and then pop them out the other side and hope something changed. And that's, yeah, bang their heads together. But how do you convince people to back something when they aren't convinced that there's anything to back. Yeah, it's very challenging.

And so what we're doing at the moment, so things have changed as what we've focused on as a charity has changed throughout the years. What we're doing at the moment is using data as a really good way of convincing people. And your point around sort of sellout crowds and record numbers at Twickenham, etc. You can't deny the fact that, you know, the Chelsea game was sold out. The FA Cup final is sold out. We're showing, we're looking at broadcast numbers and the viewing time sort of that people are spending

watching women's sport. I think it was up something like 131% last year. You can't deny those realities. And that's really sort of starting to make people see things differently. Where does your own passion for sport come from? Where did you begin? So where did this whole thing all start? So I am a martial arts master.

I'm a hapkido master. She's hard as nails, ladies and gentlemen. I'm ticklish, so I shouldn't tell people. No, no. No, no. Oh, gosh, my weakness has now been. So I'm a learning and development professional, but I had always had this dream to set up my own martial arts school.

And many years ago, I thought if I don't do it I'm always I'm going to regret it so I went full-time set up and still running a martial arts school within central London and I kind of had my head down doing my own thing and then London 2012 came along. And it changed me. It changed how I felt about myself. And it made me realize a lot of things around society that I had accepted before. You know, I was used to people kind of making fun of what I did. I'm a martial arts master. I've been doing it for 40 years, over 40 years.

I'm one of the senior women in my particular discipline. But, you know, people would, oh, it's a funny thing for a woman to do or, oh, you're going to beat me up now. You know, all these, all people would give you this glazed over expression. And I just sort of accepted that. Then London 2012 came along and there were these female athletes were out there and I started to panic. It's like the Olympics and Paralympics are ending. I have to stay close to this. I have to do something. of female athletes struggling financially. So the idea was I've got a, you know, I'm not particularly well off, but I've got a tenner and if I can find ten other people, we can buy someone a tyre and they can get to their training. So that's kind of where the whole thing started and then you get in and you think,

that's not going to change anything. There are structural things that have to change. And then, you know, we started doing other things. And 10 years along, we've come such, such a long way. What's the future going to look like? What's the next key step for you? So women's sport is moving so fast. It's part of it is trying to keep up with it.

But some visibility of women's sport has grown massively, particularly around TV. The next is really to focus around the viability. So it's still not commercially sustainable. And it's something about understanding how to turn the attention that women's sport is getting into pounds. So that's, I think, the key area that the industry and definitely us will be focusing on. Well, we look forward to hearing more from you and keeping our eye on what you're doing. Tammy, Parla, thank you so much for speaking to me. And congratulations once again for being on our Power List and more power to you. Thank you very much.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

Now, this month's edition of British Vogue features disabled models for the very first time on the front cover. They've called it reframing fashion. It's fantastic. One of these cover stars is 21-year-old Ellie Goldstein, the first model with Down syndrome to ever feature fulfilling a lifelong held ambition. Ellie is one of fashion's rising stars and the UK's most prominent model with Down syndrome. She advocates for a broader view of beauty across the fashion industry,

making history as the first model to feature in major international campaigns for brands like Gucci Beauty and Adidas, to name a few. She's also been involved in the first ever Barbie doll with Down syndrome. And to find out more, I'm delighted to say I'm joined by Ellie and her mum, Yvonne. Welcome, Ellie. Welcome, Yvonne. Morning. Morning. Lovely to have you on the programme. Ellie, check you out. Can I just say this? Vogue girl how did how does that feel um really great and really

weird really great and really weird well you look absolutely sensational so stunning growing up were you always interested in fashion and modeling was it has it always been your ambition when I was five when you were five what were you? What were you doing at five? Dancing to music. Fantastic. And you did other modelling before Vogue with Gucci and Adidas. How did it feel when you saw your Gucci beauty campaign go viral in 2020? I was screaming.

And I was pivoted I was honoured. And what was the Vogue shoot like? Tell me about that day. Very good. I was treated like a queen, like always on the shoot. I wore a Gucci dress, which I liked, and very good. How important is it, Ellie, to see models with disabilities represented in fashion? To see more inclusion and diversity out there. It's essential, absolutely essential. You're changing the face of fashion.

Yvonne, were you prepared for the fame and media attention that's coming with Ellie's success? No, she wasn't. No, she wasn't. How's mum coping, Ellie? How's she coping? Overwhelming. Well, with the Gucci especially, I just thought it was a normal shoot. And the agency, Zebedee, said, you know, be prepared for when this comes out, it's going to go crazy.

And I was like, and it did it was just it literally went mad and ellie was on lots of interviews and tv and got lovely work from it yeah and yeah she's been doing incredibly well and then vogue wanted her for a shoot but we didn't actually know it was going to be the cover. Yeah, no. Until a few days before, so there was a lot of, ooh. Because my agent called Mum and she said to Mum, look, I'm on the cover. I'm telling you, Ellie got on the cover of Vogue.

I'm like, what? I didn't scream, I didn't care. I'm going to go home. We were screaming. I'm not surprised you were screaming. How really care. I'm going to go home. I'm screaming. I'm not surprised you were screaming. How are you coping with all your new founder fame and success and being recognised, Ellie? I have no idea. You were born ready.

Yeah, she just gets on with it, really. Oh, there she is. Oh, yes. Come on. Magnificent. You're showing me the cover there. You look absolutely gorgeous. You are gorgeous. Yvonne, I want to talk about when Ellie was little, though. Medical professionals weren't very encouraging, were they, when Ellie was born? What were you told?

It was handled very poorly. It was a big shock to myself and my husband. And they just left us waiting for a good four hours before anyone come to see us but they would said don't feed her but they wouldn't tell us why we couldn't really see anything to be honest in her face or anything else um then a team came in just said this is ellie she's got down syndrome she won't walk she won't talk she won't ever go to university I'm not not in college not calling nothing you know and we were just like stunned and they just said there's some leaflets outside and they left the room and then another nurse come over and said oh the last mother who had one of these left it here do you want to do it do you want to do that it was just all horrific quite honestly and it took us a long time well me not my husband me a long time to sort of

bond and accept it and the next day she was rushed to great ormond street she had heart issues and it's all a blur well we've just done our first item was about you know depression in the first first year i mean how did you cope i wasn't i don't think i was depressed i think i was just in denial and shocked and i couldn't actually say the word so to my friends i was like she's got it she's got it i couldn't say yes. Yeah, it's all just very strange time. But eventually we accepted and it was like, oh, we're going to bring Ellie up. And it's not me now. The famous Ellie. The famous Ellie, exactly. Yeah, just the same as we did my other daughter, Amy, and we got on with life.

And we said we'd take a week at a time. And we got through her heart op. She was five'd take a week at a time and we got through her heart op she was five months old she had a 10 hour operation nearly lost her then because I couldn't get a back off bypass oh good there was lots of issues along the way and but yeah she grew up we could see her character and she was very outgoing talked really early walked quite well you know she was all defined as what the doctors would say and what what did they tell you you wouldn't be able to do ellie walk talk uh got to college university go to mainstream school or walk and talk as well yeah well you've proved them all wrong no, no I have

and Adidas has made a statue of you yes, like now it's in my college, in the box theatre unbelievable, how incredible your friends must just absolutely love it yeah they'll just pose it to me and say that's my Ellie, my darling oh my god

and what does it feel like being called a role model Ellie um really great really great yeah you're an absolute role model you're a game changer and and you and now there's a Barbie doll yes the very first Down Syndrome Barbie doll. Did you play with Barbies growing up? Yeah, I did. All Barbies. And so how did you feel when you saw your Barbie? Really emotional.

I wanted to cry, but I didn't actually cry. Why did it feel emotional? So weird. I mean, I couldn't control my emotions. What would it have meant to you if you'd had a Barbie doll like you growing up? That I'm children with Down syndrome can't see, they want to be included in it. Well, you are making sure that children, people with Down syndrome are definitely seen and seen in a magnificent way, Ellie. You're an absolute game changer, a role model, and you're stunning. Thank you, Maggie.

And I cannot wait to see what magazine cover you'll be doing next or what catwalk you'll be walking along. Who do you want to model for? Do you have a top designer? Not really, but Neil or America. Yeah, yeah, travel the world. Mum, are you all right with that? Are you ready to travel the world? Yeah, I do admit to it.

I'll do it. Yeah, it'll be great. That's Ellie's next ambition. Yes, it is. Well well come and talk to us about what happens next um we'll put the kettle on and we'll welcome you here at women's our hq anytime ellie more power to you lovely to speak to you both yeah she gave us a little flick of the hair there lovely thank you thank you ellie thank you yvonne thank you uh so many of you get in touch with various things here we're talking about on the program today and we are going to be talking about um craft just a moment kneelers i'll be telling

you all about them but jill's been in touch to say i took up knitting again having been taught as a child by my grandmother 50 years ago after two fractures and three surgeries to my left leg my life changed somewhat i'm convinced that my knitting project saved my mental state i'm not very high tech but enjoy knitting blankets and hot water bottle covers in our fabulous British wool. Hot water bottle, knitted hot water bottle. That sounds like a dream. Nicole says, we moved here from Canada just five months before lockdown.

And I found that free embroidering helped me get creative again after a career in academic writing. I'd been longing to get back to my creative side, but the anxiety of moving and the pandemic made embroidery immensely helpful. Well, the book Kneelers by Elizabeth Bingham looks at a British tradition of kneeler making, kneeling cushions in churches, a type of folk art that's been long overlooked and almost forgotten. The designs are intricate and detailed, depicting everything from biblical and rural images to people and objects of interest.

Well, Elizabeth's book documents over 4,000 decorative designs from parishes across the UK and show a range of eclectic, sometimes quirky and unique images, revealing a rich and varied tradition that she says has been all but lost. Well, Elizabeth, I'm delighted to say, joins me now to tell us more. Morning, Elizabeth. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Tell me about the book. What inspired you to write it? I've been collecting images of kneelers for several decades. And I was distressed to find that Church After Church was now, which used to. Yes.

Oh, you've muted. Can you hear me? I can, yes, yes. Carry on. We can hear you. Sorry. I'd been involved in a needle project for a church and it helped with a lot of the needle designing and thought that the importance was to have something that was local to the church and not standardized.

And so we all did design different NILAs and we all stitched our own and it was grand. And then I discovered that church after church after church was just using commercial NILA kits, which were very expensive as compared to doing it yourself so i thought that the thing to do was to set up a website explaining to people that designing your own dealers is actually very very easy all you need is some graph paper and a pencil and a rubber and you scribble away and you rub it out and you scribble some more and you finally get a design you like and then you go ahead. But people seem to need extra encouragement so I attached to the website pictures of kneelers that I thought were interesting and I ended up with

about 4,000 and still the commercial Nila kit people kept on selling more and more Nila kits. And there was a lack of, you know, there are a lot of marvellous local churches doing local Nila projects, but they were diminishing in numbers, i've decided yeah it's been described as the most widely practiced but often overlooked folk art in england and wales for the past 90 years yes that's absolutely right um what is folk art how would you describe folk art

i i think it's difficult to describe i think it should be done by an amateur, not a professional artist. I mean, obviously, professional artists have always designed for tapestries, whether you had Goya or Raphael or, you know, distinguished artists have designed for weaving tapestries. If you're an amateur and you're not even trying to be an artist with your sheet of grass paper you decide well you'd like to do the three kings what does that make you think of you think of camels so you draw camels not with their joints in the right place you draw four straight lines that's their legs and then you put on a hump and there's a hump and then you stick a king on

top and you scribble away until you've got a decent pattern and then you stitch it. So it's democratised. It should be for absolutely everybody. But in the book you do mention a woman called Sybil Blunt. She was a trailblazer in the movement and she created a tapestry for the Women's Institute. Can you tell us a bit more about who she was?

She was the friend of somebody who'd been brought in initially by the Bishop of Winchester to design kneelers for the chapel in his bishop's palace. And then the Dean of Winchester Cathedral thought this is a very good idea. You had rixie kneelers before, you had cushions that just had ordinary coverings. And this was the first time in the 1930s anyone thought of doing canvas work for something to kneel on or for something to sit on. So that was a breakthrough.

And actually the breakthrough came from the Bishop of Winchester of the day. Then when Louisa Pesel was invited to do this for Winchester Cathedral, she said, oh, I'll bring in my assistant. And the assistant was a designer of genius. Louisa Purcell was a very good organiser and very good at self-promotion.

Whereas Sybil Blunt was extremely shy in retiring and didn't blow her trumpet at all. And I said to the book, it's a bit like you go to St Paul's you said what a marvelous building and then you say my goodness wasn't the foreman of the builders such a good man fancy having a foreman that good that you could finally succeed in building St Paul's Cathedral and who designed it oh well that was someone called Christopher Wren and that's the way that Sybil Blunt has been seen. I see.

In my view, she is completely outstanding. One of the major textile artists of the 20th century. Lots of lots of people are getting in touch, telling us about their own crafts projects who are listening today. But I've just had a message in from someone saying, I embroidered six kneelers for Sherbourne Abbey, six designs, one for each member of my family with name and date of birth on each. That sounds rather lovely. I mean, I was quite interested in something

that you said in the book about how textile art is often snubbed by proper artists and historians. The Royal Academy ruled in 1770 that exhibitions shouldn't include needlework. Why do you think that was the case? I think that's, you know, I mean, what you referred earlier to Sybil Blunt's tapestry design,

which is now in the Imperial War Museum. And it was a woman designing a tapestry commissioned by the Women's Institute about the work that women had done during the Second World War. So the commissioners were women, the designer was women, the needle was stitched by women. So the Imperial War Museum buys it and classifies it, categorizes it in their catalogue

as souvenirs and ephemera. Well, if that's not misogyny, I don't know what is. I have attempted cross-stitch in the past, but I just failed at it. Should I stick

to it, Elizabeth? Should I get going? Should I pick it up again and give it a go um you certainly should but do for goodness sake design your own i mean start with something very straightforward stitch your name um and every single stitcher no matter how expert does a great deal of undoing so So don't be put off. If you find your name, I mean, my name is very long, it's Elizabeth, and it takes a long time and you suddenly realise something's wrong

and you've left out one of the letters, you go back and put it in. I'll start with an A and see where we get to. Or maybe a W, maybe I'll do a woman's L one. Or maybe, no, maybe I won't make that statement on national radio in case I have to actually follow through with it. Elizabeth Bingham, it's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you. So

fascinating. Thank you very much. And the book is out. It's called Kneelers by Elizabeth. Loads of you get in touch about your craft. I've returned to a professional career as a ceramicist after 10 years bringing up my children. I refer to these as my lost years. Craft is not just a pastime. For many of us. It's our fundamental way of being in the world where we feel truly alive. I can't help but feel that if we took our human need to create more seriously, the world would be a much more compassionate and functional place. And that's from Jane Shepard.

Oh, my guest in front of me is nodding along to that. I can't wait to speak to her. Let me introduce you. A new BBC six-part comedy thriller, Black Ops, centres around Dom and Kay, two police community support officers in East London who join the Metropolitan Police in the hope of cleaning up their neighbourhood, then find themselves working undercover to infiltrate a criminal gang.

Bimasola Ikamelo, perhaps best known for the comedy sketch show, Famalam is the co-creator. She also stars in the series. And she's sitting opposite me right now looking amazing. Oh, thank you. Welcome. Thank you for having me.

It's wonderful to have you here. I thought it was hilarious. I could have binge watched the whole thing in one sitting. What inspired the series? Well, Akeemji Defonien, who was the creator of Famalam, we were doing sketches. I think that was in the first season of famalam and the story he tells people is that he was he saw me and thought yeah we need a show for bemi and we and he pitched this um he he got me in a room with the the powers that be at the bbc and I had some ideas and one of them was I

wanted to do a comedy thriller and I wanted to see myself in a role that I probably wouldn't be put up for as an audition so I kind of thought action hero because no one's going to look at me and go yeah she'll she'll be an action hero so So I thought, yeah, let's do that. And luckily they really liked it. So, and here we are. You always wanted to be in a cop show. Yeah, I think sort of the buddy cop show of it all. And just sort of being reared on sitcom comedy and that sort of world.

And up until that point, I was with Famalam, it's a very sort of contained thing. You're doing these sketches. So to do this sort of world. And up until that point, I was with Famalam, it's a very sort of contained thing. You're doing these sketches. So to do this sort of long form comedy and not seeing many buddy cop shows with people who are black, you know, at the helm. And so I just love the idea. I love the idea of it.

I love the idea of sort of subverting what that could look like as well, what we expect a cop show to be and who those stars would be. And so there's just something a little sort of subversive and a little bit kind of cheeky about the idea. It is definitely cheeky, subversive. It's very funny. And the script is on point. You will hear for yourselves because here's a clip. I need two officers to infiltrate a gang dealing drugs on Brightmarsh Estate. We'll do it.

Hang on. You need two drug dealers, so get the black people. The Brightmarsh gang is black. The Met keeps sending me middle-aged white guys. I need two young black officers to go places where they can't. Hate to break it to you, Clinton, but we ain't straight. Yeah, I'm gathering that. My dad's a paediatrician and this woman's a prayer group. Wednesday nights,

all welcome. Look, I'll guide you through the whole thing. We'll do it. Kate, will you stop just saying we'll do it? This sounds dangerous. It is. So what's in it for us? Yeah, let's talk terms, Clinton. You both get service met, we'll do it. Kate! You get to do real police work. Shh, not interested. What? Look, Clinton, I'm in this game for the free-to-travel It's very good.

You can only write like that if you are black, right? That's your experience oh to be able to i mean i can't speak for everyone but i i have to write for my experience i have to write from what i know and i will say there were moments where i was like well i'm a little bit out of my depth i don't know enough about this sort of police world and this you know but you realize that alongside with your actual experience and starting with your experience is a really great place to start. So how did you do the research for the police book?

I mean, there were a lot of sort of unofficial conversations that were had with people in, you know, in the Met and just, you know, looking up things and articles and just experiences and all of the things that sort of happen are kind of coming from a place that is feasible and realistic. You know, even though we do height and things and there is some there's a lot of silly and a lot of fun, but it's all real. There's a lot of silly. There's a lot of fun, but there's a lot of intake of's a lot of fun but there's a lot of oh intake of breath wow moments yeah i'm thinking of the scene in the first episode where dom and k are stopped by a white officer in the station and asked what they're doing there dom has to say she's worked there for for four years and there's a post and there's a post of her right next i mean that's the kind

of stuff that has happened to me a few times like that so that kind of stuff you sort of turn the things that are frustrating into funny and and the laugh kind I don't know there's something about comedy that I love that is able to sort of deconstruct pain in a way that makes it just we you know we can laugh about it and and sort of find some respite in that you know How easy was it to write those scenes? Quite easy. Finally! Oh yeah, I'll have them. Yeah, because I've had, I've walked into spaces where it's like, are you supposed to be here? Or are you the cleaner? Or, you know, I've had, and I sort of turn that stuff into comedy, because it seems ridiculous when you write it down. It seems like there's a post-op, but that stuff is real, you know? Also, there's an army of us nodding along. Yes, exactly. While watching it. So let's talk about the character.

You play PCSO Dominique in the series, as we heard. She's very cynical. Yes. Jaded by police work after being passed for promotion. Is that fair? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think she has sort of, when we see her first, she's got this kind of defence mechanism, which is like, no, you know, instead of sort of being vulnerable and being open to the yeses of life, she's kind of like, no, no, because she's had so many doors slammed in her face and so many no's herself.

So it's almost like, you know, she's going to she's going to say no first no first you know to sort of protect her and I think as this horrible stuff starts to unfold in the show we get to see her be a bit more vulnerable and a little bit more trusting and and trust her instincts and realize that she's actually really good at this she's really good and also just something as simple as being a middle-class black woman on screen which Akemji and me were really keen on exploring because there is not just one experience of blackness, you know? And it's really lovely to just be like, yeah, she lives in Dubovoir.

And that to be just the thing that we just throw into the mix of this show. But it's actually a really strong statement we're saying that there's a black middle class and she doesn't connect with this sort of street urban sort of life and she has to and she's thrust into it and that's quite scary and and isn't her experience i know that everybody needs to watch it so that you get all the jokes but i just have there's one scene where she opens opens the door to the guy who's convinced her to join this gang. And she says, I've had a glass of wine and a night all.

And she says, it's hard work being a black woman living in London. And I just couldn't stop laughing. That was actually improvised. We actually improvised that line. I don't think it was in the script. I'm paraphrasing. Sorry, I probably just ruined it. But that was...

And, yeah, that stuff is just... It's just so much fun to do. And that was a great thing in the shows, that there was just time to sort of play and improvise and come up with things that actually kind of sometimes can be funnier in the moment than on the page. And you learnt to ride a bike for the series. I learnt... You know, you could have just not had that scene, innit?

I know, but, like... It's excellent. bike for the series i learned you know you could have just not had that scene i know but like it's excellent it's also my cheeky way of going how can i learn to ride a bike on someone else's dime uh we also i also learned to ride a low rider bike which is not like riding a normal bike it's so much more difficult and and hamid who who plays k in the show is just like yeah it's so hard and then he's like whizzing down the road and sort of one hand doing wheelies and it i could feel the impatient i could feel the patience of people sort of looming after like take three and i'm still wobbling it was worth it because that's a very cool scene and it made me think i just want a low rider bike yeah i. I'm having that,

that's where I see myself this summer. I did want one. Let's get them. Let's go cruising around East London together on them this summer. I did inquire about keeping mine and then I just thought, I live in a tiny flat,

where am I, where is this going to go? And you're never going to ride it again, stop lying to yourself. Let's talk about how brilliant you are generally. You've been BAFTA nominated twice for your comedy performance in the BBC sketch show Famalam.

All black comedians. You also wrote for it. What was that experience like? That was insane because I loved the idea, loved the show and OKMG sort of said, yeah, come on,

you know, we'd love you to act in it. And that I got. And then it was like, I'd like you to write on the show as well and I was like I don't write comedy I I've written plays and it's always coming from a very dark thespian sort of space and I and maybe I might write some rest but you know just some laughter just from foot to to to break the tension but not actual jokes. I never thought of myself as a comedy writer. And Kemji was just like, yeah, no, I think you can do it. So that's quite a change if you saw yourself going down a certain route.

Yeah, I mean, comedy found me. I did not sort of go looking for comedy. Where did you see yourself going? I mean, to be honest, a lot of actors were just like, can we get a job please can we work can we pay our bills and i think i was in that space i was just like job jobbing actor uh but i think if i if you'd asked me what my dreams would have been i would have been like i want to sort of do like sort of tread more balls and to do the rsc and more stuff at the national

and nothing wrong with those things i've worked at the national great but i'd uh yeah i just comedy it just wasn't something that entered my frame of reference until i did a a comedy uh by dame baptiste called sunny d and i played his twin sister i love dame and oh my god it was the most fun I'd had in so long. And I think I'd, yeah, it was just so much fun. And people kept saying, you're really funny. And I was like, am I? Am I really? And I met Akemji on that because he played my cousin.

And Akemji then was like going into making Famalam. And he said, I'd like you to come on board. And then, so I'd just come off of my first comedy. And then he was like, I'd like you to come on board. And then, so I'd just come off of my first comedy and then he was like, I'd like you to come on this and write it. And you got your own series commissioned off for short that you made called Braining Gear. When are we going to see that? Braining Gear is a working progress.

It's such a big sort of ambitious show that there's lots of cogs turning and things like that. But we are sort of the scripts are there we're getting ready looking at shooting and yeah from and from a jobbing actor who's going can i just get a job please to being in you know bbc big boardroom meeting rooms with people saying let's create a show around you tell us what you want to do that's happened in your life that's happened and as well as being in america in a league of their own the amazon series um all of this is stuff exciting stuff is happening how how are you do you have pinch me

moments i i have so many pinch me moments there are bruises like from all the pinch me's but also i think i've in some way i've been sort of preparing for it for a while you know I before I always say that I was sort of preparing for the I was waiting for them to sort of find me so when I was in those rooms and they were asking me questions I was I already had ideas I knew the things I wanted to create and so it was waiting for them to catch up with me really yeah actually and about time as well and it's wonderful. The series is excellent.

Thank you. Thank you so much for coming in to speak to me. It's called Black Ops. It starts on BBC One. Friday, 9.30, BBC One and on iPlayer. Lovely. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Lots of you getting in touch about all your craft things. I'm sorry if I haven't got through all of them but a message here. The Vogue Disabled Models edition is overdue but so affirming. As a disabled woman myself, it really empowered me. Tomorrow I'll be talking to Lisa Selby, the subject and co-director of a new film called

Blue Bag Life. Lisa examines her mother's abandonment of her. It's an astonishing piece of work. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, my name's Michelle DeSwalt and I'm Laura Smith and we have a new podcast from BBC Radio 4. Bang on That's all for today's Woman's to. Oh, I like that. Listen, like all podcasts, we're talking about stuff we've done,

whether you should bother doing it, but really we're waxing lyrical and... Trying to make that paper, baby. The economy's in the pan. Subscribe to Bang On It on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.