Woman's Hour - Maternal mental health, Syria's missing, poet Caitlin O'Ryan

Episode Date: February 11, 2025

Laura Kyrke-Smith MP wants more care and support for new mothers struggling with their mental health. Her own friend died by suicide just 10 weeks after giving birth and she recently led a debate in parliament on the subject. She joins Nuala McGovern to talk about the changes she wants to see, along with perinatal psychologist Dr Alain Gregoire from the Maternal Mental Health Alliance. What does the word 'ambition' mean to you? A study from the University of California has shown women may be put off applying for jobs when words such as 'ambition' or 'drive' appear in the ad, as they can feel intimidated. Nuala talks to Tiffanie Darke, the former CEO of female unemployment charity Smart Works, about women’s relationship to ambition and what they’re really looking for in a job. Wafa al Mustafa has been searching for her father for 13 years, ever since he was arrested at their home in Damascus in 2013. She has become the face of the campaign by hundreds of Syrian families to find their loved ones who have disappeared. She tells us how her search is going, and the difference the fall of Assad’s regime has made. Performance poet Caitlin O'Ryan's poem about women walking home has struck a chord with thousands of people online. She joins us to perform At What Point and share what made her want to get up on stage at a poetry open mic night for the first time a couple of years ago. What happens when your child with special educational needs or disabilities, otherwise known as SEND, gets older? We hear from Laura Kerr from People First Dorset, a charity which aims to tackle loneliness amongst young people with learning disabilities, and Jo White, whose 17-year-old son Leon is autistic and non-verbal and has just left education. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Sarah Jane Griffiths

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petruzzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme. Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks it will take to feel truly alive.

If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern, and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. The MP Laura Kirk Smith called a debate on maternal mental health following the death of her close friend Sophie. In a minute, we're going to hear what she thinks needs to change.

Also today, Wafa Mustafa, the Syrian activist who returned home. She tried to find her father who has been missing for over a decade. We'll speak to her about what she found. Also there is a study in today's paper that says job adverts which use the words ambition and drive may deter women from applying. When researchers removed so-called masculine terms from an advert, they found the proportion of women applying increased by 4%. So we'll talk about the word ambition and ambitious and what it means for women. I want to know what is your relationship to those words?

Would you call yourself ambitious? Do you feel judged by others for your ambition or admired for it? You can text the program the number is 84844 on social media we're at BBC woman's hour or you can email us through our website for a whatsapp message or a voice note the number is 03700 100 444. Also coming up the poet Caitlin O'Ryne. She will perform her poem At What Point for Us. You may have come across it online. It did go viral over the past few weeks. I'm looking forward to speaking to Caitlin as well. But let me begin with the MP Laura Kirk Smith. She is pushing for more care, more support for new mothers who are struggling with their mental health.

Her own best friend Sophie died by suicide in 2021, that was just 10 weeks after giving birth to her third child. Recently, Ms Kirk-Smith led a debate on the subject in Parliament and joins us now in the studio. We also have Alain Gregoire from the Maternal Mental Health Alliance joining us on the line. But welcome to you both. I want to start with you Laura first. You became an MP for Ailsbury in the last election and you want to use this opportunity to put a spotlight on the topic of maternal mental health. Your friend Sophie's death being the catalyst as I understand. I'm very sorry for your loss but I thought maybe you'd like to tell us about Sophie and that journey to her

being a catalyst. Yeah thank you so much for having me on the program and for focusing on this issue which is such an important one but one that I think is still too easily overlooked. So I lost my brilliant brilliant one of my best friends Sophie in 2021. I thought quite hard about talking about her death because I just want to be really clear that I don't want that to be how she's remembered and defined. She had a wonderful life, she was hugely bright, creative, she'd she had a high-flying Foreign Office career, she wrote plays, she and she started to raise her beautiful family. And it's, you know, it's all her talents

and her wonderful family that I wanted to be known for and remembered by. But she did die in incredibly shocking and tragic circumstances. It was COVID and I think that the tail end of the COVID pandemic, and I think that played a role in her death. I think she was quite isolated but at the same time I think a lot of mums, new mums now, can feel that sense of isolation. It is a very very challenging time of life and I just hope that Sophie's death

can be a catalyst for the change that we so need in society. So what is it that you're looking for? What do you think, whether it's where Sophie or another new mum, what do you think was missing? So I think there are four areas and in the debate last last week in Parliament I touched briefly on all of them. I think the first is around specialist care for people who are in really severe crisis. So there's a really important need to just protect and keep strengthening those perinatal mental health services that do exist. Every integrated care system in the country should have that kind of provision now, but I do hear

far too often, including in the last week or so as I've been talking about this, mums that weren't able to get a bed in a mother and baby unit, for example, the beds weren't there or the provision was too far away, or perhaps their suicide risk or their severe mental health risks weren't there or the provision was too far away or perhaps their suicide risk or their severe mental health risks weren't assessed properly in the first place. So I talk about the need to protect those services. The second area I'm really focused on is just better embedding mental health support in all of the routine care that someone receives in pregnancy and in that first year after birth. The average person sees 16 healthcare professionals during that time, whether that's midwives or health

visitors or GPs. If with each of those touch points with the health system, I think if mums were asked routinely and compassionately, not just about the baby but about their own mental health, I think that would go a long way towards making sure that the support, if they do need it, then kicks in. And of course I'm very conscious that what happened to my friend is awful and suicide is the leading cause of death for women in that period from six weeks after they give birth to a year after birth. But I'm so conscious that, you know, whether it's postnatal anxiety, depression, OCD, PTSD, there are so many ways in which people suffer and sometimes in more mild ways.

So, well, what happened to my friend is an extreme example. There are just so many women out there that need some form of support. We did reach out to the NHS, and I'll read a little of what they said. They said they're committed to ensuring all women and babies receive high quality care before, during, and after pregnancy. They say their data shows that record numbers

are now accessing perinatal mental health support and increased investment, ensuring every area of England has a specialist team. The NHS, they say, has recently opened 41 maternal mental health services with almost nine in ten women now reporting that they are receiving this support during pregnancy. And they also say if you're pregnant or have given birth recently and are struggling with your mental health, then please ask your GP or other services for support that the NHS is there to help but is that not enough? I think the support is improving there's no doubt there's been great great improvements over the last few years and I know that the government now is really committed

to maternal mental health as part of the long-term work that we want to do to to reform and to transform the NHS. So I think the commitment is there and the guidance is good. It's very clear in the guidance that there should be support, mental health support, for women in this period. But I think in practice, you know, it's partly because healthcare professionals are very stretched. It's partly, for many reasons, I think in practice the support doesn't always kick in in the way that it needs to. Part of that I think interestingly is women not

always feeling like they can be honest about how much they're struggling. So there's an interesting statistic that 70% of women hide or underplay their mental health challenges. And I'll come back to what you heard during the debate as well because I understand it was oversubscribed. Well me bring in Alan who I mentioned works with the Maternal Mental Health Alliance. You've been nodding a lot through what you've been hearing so far. But what point do you want to pick up on? Well I've been a perinatal psychiatrist, mother and baby psychiatrist for the last 40 years in the NHS and there's no doubt at all that there's been a dramatic

improvement in all four nations of the UK in the very specialist care that women can receive when they're extremely ill or very high risk but we have a huge challenge that we really shouldn't underestimate relating to the majority of women who are suffering often in silence with mental health problems during pregnancy and postnatally, who are not recognized by services, by the professionals that they see and you know we mustn't forget the nhs invests huge amounts of money

in maternity care uh... well all women have contact uh... with highly trained professionals but in physical health care and yet the most common health complication of having a baby uh... is uh... depression and that's just one of the mental health conditions and the main cause of death postnatally is mental health. So we're neglecting this huge area

of need and of suffering. So I suppose the question might be, Alan, forgive me for stepping on you, but both of you are mentioning that silence of 70% of people not coming forward. I mean, how do you break that aspect of it? Because the NHS may tell us that they have some services that are there and that we're hearing that it's improving, even if perhaps not enough according to some. But that silence, I'm just wondering how you get people to speak about something that they feel they can't? Well, the NCT, the National Childbirth Trust, a few years ago did a wonderful survey of women with mental health difficulties, asking them why they didn't come forward with their difficulties. And that was very revealing. The main cause was that they feared talking about their mental health problems. Women were frightened that they

would be judged and indeed very commonly that they would have their baby taken away because they had a mental health problem. That simply isn't true, that doesn't happen. But for some reason, for some reason that message is not getting through that your baby will remain with you even if you talk about these issues. I also want to come back to you Laura on a couple of aspects. I did see the speech that you gave in Parliament and you talked about feeling guilt after this happened and I can't imagine such a painful time as well and you're looking for more support for this. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? Yeah, yeah, it's I did feel a lot of guilt at the time.

I asked and I still do. I asked myself, did I do enough? I think it's quite a common reaction when people die by suicide. But, you know, Sophie and I were in very regular touch. I had our little babies were about the same age. I was at home on maternity leave when this happened with my little one. And we were constantly swapping notes about, you know, feeding and napping and, you know, as, as you do as, as new mums.

And, and I did sense through some of her messages, I should say we weren't, I didn't see her in the last few weeks because it was, it was COVID, she didn't want to see, she didn't want visitors, and she was also at home recovering from a C-section. But we were in constant touch and I knew she was struggling, I knew she was worried about her babies feeding, I did worry that she might be experiencing postnatal depression and anxiety. I did even wonder if she was thinking about taking her own life. A couple of her messages suggest that she was struggling to know how to keep going. I wish I had been bolder in asking about that explicitly.

And all the advice out there from mind and from others is that if you are worried about someone experiencing potentially experiencing suicidal thoughts, it's better to ask. It's better to try and have that conversation. And that can play quite an important role in stopping them necessarily going through with it. So I've sort of thought about all of that quite a lot.

And I know a lot of other mums that struggled with mental health have had children myself. And I think if I didn't necessarily know the right questions to ask, there'll be a lot of other people out there that don't. And I think that's, you know, we've talked a bit about the silence and the fear around this. And I just, I hope that by talking about it, I'm sort of giving other people more ability to ask the right questions. Yes. And I do want to say if somebody listening has been affected by the issues we're talking about, please do go to the BBC Action Line as well. But I want to come back to you, Elan, because I think we hear there is such an eloquence about what Laura went through with her friend Sophie and if friends or family are

worried about somebody who is going through pregnancy or has given birth, what should they do? They absolutely should encourage the mum to speak out about her, the challenges she's facing, about how she's feeling. And she can do that to her midwife, to her health visitor, to her GP. And indeed the family can do that if mum feels intimidated in any way at all, or embarrassed, or shameful. All of these emotions and thoughts are so common. So encouraging her, supporting her. And the professionals out there absolutely do care about their mental health. It's just they've never been given the resources or

the training to be able to deal with it in an active way, seeking out women, encouraging women, as we should be doing in our maternity services, to talk about their mental health problems. But if you have those difficulties or you know somebody that does, seek help from those professionals. And there is help out there. So there are psychological therapies that prioritize women in the perinatal period. Maybe not enough of them, maybe absolutely not as Laura is asking for embedded and integrated into maternity care. But there is help out there. So seek it. And don't be ashamed if you're suffering with your mental health at this time this is so common there is to be expected in many ways there there is a message that just came in actually Laura and Alan says I'm

struggling with mental health with my second baby he's three months old I found friends were great when I had my first but people are so much less interested when you have your second very few people have come to visit or see the baby they expect you to come and meet them as if life is normal or they say hope you're okay rather than asking how are you. I'm on antibiotics for mastitis at the moment and it's so easy to say I have mastitis to acquaintances and they're sympathetic but I could never say I've had a mental health crash. My advice to mums I've seen professionally is do speak about it and mums come back to me and

have said I'm amazed when I did talk about it they all said they'd had it as well. So actually everybody keeping quiet doesn't help anybody so speaking out but also the professionals, the midwives, the health visitors, the GPs need to be, need to do the speaking out actively and need to be supported and trained to do that. And we're not quite there yet, but this sort of program and this sort of speaking out will change that. And I do want to say to that listener, thank you for getting in touch and also as the advice was with the NHS is do get in touch with your GP and speak about the issues that you are experiencing. Before I let you go Laura, I know it was oversubscribed, I also saw you say that you know the stats look bleak but this is actually a story

of hope and potential. That's right and I think I was so pleased by the level of interest, you know I think there's a lot of colleagues of mine in Parliament who really care about this too and want to see things change. I hope there'll be more space to debate this in parliament. I know more people would like to. But fundamentally, that's right. You know, what happened to Sophie was such a tragedy and there are awful stories out there. But ultimately, this is such an opportunity for good preventative action. You know, if we can support mums at this crucial and really pressured time in their lives, we set them up for success and we set their children up

for success and we're doing such good for society in doing that. The MP, Laura Kirk-Smith, MP for Ellsbury, also joined by Alain Gregoire, the Maternal Mental Health Alliance is where he works, thanks to both of you and also to those of you getting in touch 84844 if you would like to and again I just want to reiterate there is the BBC Action Line if you've been affected by some of the issues that we have been discussing. Let me turn to ambition next. What does it mean to you?

Well there's a new study from the University of California that showed that women may be put off applying for positions by so-called masculine wording in job adverts. So words such as ambition or drive can leave women feeling intimidated, this study said. I want to bring in Tiffany Dark, who was until recently the CEO of SmartWorks, the female unemployment charity. Very welcome to the program Tiffany. Oh, thank you for having me. What about your view on women's relationship with the word ambition?

And I threw it out this morning to our listeners and I can see a number of them have got in touch already. Yeah, I think women have a complicated relationship with the word ambition. I mean, you know, for legacy reasons, it was not considered a decorous word for women when they weren't traditionally in the workplace. But you know, I bet if you ask women to define what they think female success looks like in the workplace, they would come up with different adjectives to perhaps the ones that men would.

I mean, just throwing it out there, I would say understanding, collaborative, flexible, friendly, intelligent, those are the things that I am looking for in a workplace. You know, just as you were saying that, I see Tamsin in Cornwall got in touch. She says, I prefer to think of my drive, ambition, to be better described as tenacious and tenacity. What is that pushback against the word ambition? What's wrong with it, so to speak? I think that the issue is that women find the workplace more difficult because they are generally speaking having to balance lots of different things in their lives.

And this idea that's very current at the moment about work-life integration doesn't always work for women who have other responsibilities going on in their lives in which they cannot integrate their work. And what we do know from SmartWorks is that actually the landscape for employment is getting much harder to access for women at the moment. On average, our women have been to up to 37 job interviews

before they come and see us. That's 37 unsuccessful job interviews. And one of the sort of big challenges they tell us they face is that job adverts often, you know, they don't declare whether that job is flexible in any way or indeed what its salary is. And this means that, you know, women don't know whether those jobs

are actually going to work for them. So, you know, women are, don't know whether those jobs are actually going to work for them. So, you know, what women, I think, need more of is actually Mary Porter's coined this phrase, and I think it's very good, is circular ambition. So that is ambition that applies to every single bit of a woman's life. You know, also when we ask our clients, you know, what it is they're looking for in a job, it's not the obvious thing. The number one thing that women want from their job is purpose. And women want a job that is going to be able to deliver for them in ways that they're going to be able to look after their family. They're going to be able to see their friends.

They're going to be able to forward the values and the causes that they believe in and they can serve their purpose. And employment really needs to take this into recognition. But I mean could you see that for example Tiffany, a job advert for a prestigious role, whatever it might be, that advertised that this is a job where you can have circular ambition? Yeah well we've got a long way to go to before we get there haven't we? I mean you know the thing is the more higher you get in the workplace you're quite often competing with male peers who generally have women or PAs or assistants at home who are able to kind of service all those other things in

their lives so they can be 100% dedicated to the job. Those people are not going to be talking about circular ambition, they're going to be talking about 100% integration and dedication. So yeah, I haven't seen the word circular ambition in a job ad yet, but if I do, I might apply. Let me read a couple that came in, because it's interesting, because I was asking our listeners for their relationship to the word ambition or ambitious 84844, if you want to get in touch. Here's Chris, who says when I worked I was sometimes accused of being ambitious. I was always at a loss to understand this. In my mind I was deeply engaged and wanting to do my very best. So that's like an accusation so that it's a negative in some way. And Matilda says I'm often described as ambitious

by others but the reality is I see myself as wanting to live up to expectations, not explicitly wanting to push myself to newer, bigger things. I think it might be a symptom of the female condition. I think Matilda is kind of describing circular ambition there. Yeah, I think we have to reclaim the words. I think it does. I mean, I think your listeners are quite right. It does have negative connotations when it is applied to women, but that is really very legacy in terms of its meaning. You know, we need to redefine what ambition means for us and how we want to be ambitious in the workplace. I'm really struck by that fact of

the 37 interviews that people will have gone on before they come to you. Do they describe what it is that that stands in the way specifically? Well I mean an awful lot of women apply for jobs and then never hear anything back. We've understood that there are ghost jobs out there so and you know the the rigmarole that you have to go to in an application now quite often you have to tailor your CV, you have to write a covering letter, you have to go in through an application portal and sometimes you're not even sure about the thing it is that you're applying for because quite often it doesn't tell you what the salary is or it doesn't tell you what the work hours were or all the flexibility allowances that there are around that. But also we know that there are many, many more women applying now for jobs.

We don't think AI has helped that for women at all. You know, there are key words that women are meant to put into job applications now in order to just get past the AI tool and through to the first round and you know. That's so interesting. I didn't realize that so it's like a filter almost that filters out certain applicants. That's right and our coaches when they speak to women are now are trained to tell women what keywords it is that they have to put in in order for them to be successful. Of course it's different for every job that you apply for. Does ambition or ambitious come into

it I wonder? Well I wish it would, maybe we should just do that. And see what happens. Curious for your own relationship Tiffany that with ambition what has that been? And what I'm hearing this morning, it seems to be that sometimes you don't want to be called ambitious or being accused of it, but they might have ambitious plans. Sometimes it's not personal. I'd be curious for your relationship with both words, ambition and ambitious. I think I've always had ambitious plans. I think I still have ambitious plans. I think as I've gone on through life though, those ambitions have changed. I think whereas when I was younger I was probably more ambitious for myself, I feel that now I'm more ambitious for the values that I believe in and that's how I want to direct my energies in this part of my life. I'll leave us with Joe on this item.

Tiffany Joe in Bristol says, it's not so much that I don't have ambition. It's that the words drive and ambition can be a signal for a male dominated masculine bro culture. And that is not a workplace where I might feel comfortable. Notting your head there. Tiffany Dark, author, sustainable fashion expert, and until recently, the CEO of the SmartWorks

Charity. Thanks so much for joining us. I'm Sarah Trelevin, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the

more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Now, on Thursday, we have a real treat for you. As part of the EastEnders 40th anniversary, Anita Rani will present Woman's Hour live from the set of the Fox & Hair Salon in Albert Square. This special program will celebrate the Soaps track record of featuring strong female characters and exploring some of the most pressing, contentious and emotional issues for women over the past four decades. Our guests will include Diane Parrish who plays Denise Fox.

Her love triangle storyline will be at the centre of the Soaps Live interactive episode. She'll also be joined by Kelly Bright, who plays Linda Carter, and Michelle Collins, who plays Cindy Beale. So you do not want to miss this, and neither do I. It is 10 a.m. right here on Radio 4 on Thursday. Now, almost 12 years ago, Ali Mustafa was arrested at his home in Damascus by members of the Assad regime in Syria. He has not been seen or heard from since.

But his daughter Wafa al-Mustafa has not given up hope. In fact, she's become the face of the hundreds of Syrian families still looking for their loved ones In fact, she's become the face of the hundreds of Syrian families still looking for their loved ones and demanding answers from the interim government for following the fall of the Assad regime. Wafa lives in Berlin, but she has just returned from her first trip back home in more than a decade. And she joins me now. Good to have you with us Wafa. So you went back home looking for your father in Syria. What did you find? Good morning and thank you for having me. It's very sad to say that me and many other Syrians who lived in exile for years went back to search for their loved ones but almost came back with nothing. We found one piece of information that we think confirms the fact that he was

detained in a certain detention center, security branch in Damascus, the 215 security branch. But unfortunately, I mean, what we found only says that he was there probably, but unfortunately says nothing about what he was accused of, what has happened to him, where is he today or anything like that. And unfortunately, many other families did not even find such a piece of information. And the trip back to Syria to search for a detained person today after the fall of the Assad regime is a very, very, very tough task.

The situation has been, in the first weeks, was very, very chaotic. Documents were all over the city, on the ground. Records were not archived, were not preserved the way they should be. Today, later, I would say weeks after the fall of the regime, the new government said that they've closed the detention centers and that the media and families

were not allowed to go inside and search and that they've been also working on organizing and collecting the documents. But to be honest, I mean, of course, the way the Assad regime worked and the way they documented everything they did makes it a very, very tough task to start with, to collect these documents, to archive them, to organize them, and then to find a way for the families to be able to look at these documents. Right. So your dad went missing, he was arrested under the Assad regime, and then you just didn't hear from him again.

Yeah, he was kidnapped from our house in Damascus on the 2nd of July 2013. And I mean, he was kidnapped from our house in Damascus on the 2nd of July 2013. And I mean, throughout the past years, we've heard different information about his fate, about where he is, what he's accused of. But I mean, we could never find what is true and what is not because there is a huge disinformation and you get information in exchange for money so you could never really know what is the truth and I mean I thought that maybe after the fall of the regime it will be easier but to be honest it seems to be as difficult. So where do you go from here? I imagine in Damascus, I mentioned there's hundreds of people that are looking for those that disappeared basically underneath the Assad regime. What are your next steps?

Do you keep the faith? Do you still have hope? I mean, it's beyond hope, you know. It's a beyond hope, you know, it's a responsibility. I just don't, I cannot and I don't have the right to just give up on finding my father. I mean, for years I advocated for his freedom and for the freedom of all of Syria's disappeared. But maybe today for many, many people freedom is not maybe the demand anymore, but at least the taluth and justice are still our demands. Last week we met as a group of families and survivors. We met with the new president of Syria, Ahmad Al-Shair. And during this meeting we talked about our demands.

We talked about what the families need from the new government today. We talked about our fight for the past years, and the government said that they're establishing a new directorate or some sort of entity that will be focused on the issue of the disappeared, that will work on documenting the disappeared, that will be the place where the families can go to ask for information. But I mean, from our end, we will not stop talking about it in the first place. That's to start with, because there is some sort of like, there is a tendency to just stop talking about the detainees and just consider everyone dead. And then just, people say, like, let's just look at the future.

But it's impossible because, you know, we're talking about tens of thousands of people that are still somewhere, maybe dead, but I mean, they're still somewhere and we cannot just live, you know, not not knowing where our loved ones are, when they were killed and who killed them and for what. So I think, I mean, the fight of the families will continue. We will be fighting from outside Syria, inside Syria. We will be still advocating for the truth and for justice. We will be definitely advocating for a collaboration and for work with the government

and with international institutions and with Syrian civil society to all come together and find a way and make a proper plan to tackle this big and complicated issue. But I mean, I think it is possible. It will take years. It will take a lot of money, a lot of resources and a lot of energy, but there is no other way. When you went back to Syria, it must have been very strange. I understand you went back to your family home. What was that like?

What did you find? I mean, I think maybe the simplest way to put it is that it was like a dream and a nightmare at the same time. You know, I was so sure that I will die outside of Syria, that I will never be able to go back. And then I was, and it was so heartwarming. You know, people welcomed us in our hometown in the most beautiful way.

But at the same time, it's so painful. You know, you go back and you're just confronted with the truth that the person You know, you've been advocating for four years is just simply not there anymore It's so painful. The you know, also the situation of the people in Syria is Is heartbreaking I to be honest, I cannot even understand or comprehend how people lived, how people survived the past years. But there is also a lot of hope, a lot of effort, a lot of energy. People are in pain, but they're so encouraged now to do more, to work more.

People believe today that the worst thing that happened to Syria is gone, and what is to come is definitely difficult but it will not be as difficult and at least now our voice matters and our efforts and our energy can be put somewhere for this country and it will probably pay off. And you believe that? I definitely believe in that. Wafa Mastafa, thank you for coming on and speaking to us again. We will of course continue to follow your story. That is Wafa al-Mustafa, her father Ali Mustafa was arrested at his home in Damascus.

That is almost 12 years ago and she continues her search. Now on the programme we have covered a number of discussions around children with special educational needs and disabilities known as SEND. But what about when your child is getting a little older crossing that bridge into early adulthood years? What sort of support is on offer for this age group and what is it like for the parents and families navigating the transition? Perhaps wanting to protect but also trying to let go a little in some cases. Well I'm joined now by Laura Kerr, a manager at People First Dorset, a charity which aims to tackle loneliness and build connections among young people with learning disabilities and also Jo White who also works for the

charity. Her 17 year old son Leon is autistic and nonverbal and has just left full-time education. Good to have you both with us. Welcome. Jo perhaps I'll start with you. Tell us a little bit about Leon and his experience so far I suppose going through the education system. Hi, yeah so my son he's 17, he's not quite in adult services yet. And so we're still in the education system, but just not in an education setting, in a school setting. And I think probably since, you know, since his diagnosis, when he was two, sort of, you know, trying to navigate the education system and the care system is exhausting. It takes a lot of time, it takes a lot of energy. And I think, you know, when you speak to people, you know, it's, it happens from a small age, going, you know, even though you're sort of transitioning through, I think you're always your child's biggest advocate,

you're always fighting, everybody is,. Everybody is wanting the same resources. So I suppose you're at this point, though, he is moving into early adulthood, still in education, as you mentioned, but I wonder how you're looking at the next steps. Yeah, I think it's really hard, actually. It's a challenging time. It's quite scary. A lot of the services and professionals that have been involved in my son's life, you know, moving over and transitioning over, you kind of lose that, whether that's paediatricians, you know, children's respite homes, social workers. So, you know, it will be a massive change for us. And yeah. And I suppose you're trying to predict the level of care that he will need as well.

We mentioned he's 17. How do you see the next few years? Yeah, it's really, he's non-verbal. Our support, so that's what it looks like. We're going through that transition process at the moment. It's sort of seeing what provisions are out there, you know, how we can be supported. And do you know yet the difference, perhaps, in the level of support that he may get as a child or as a young adult? Still looking at it. yeah, I understand. Yeah, we're sort of, because we're not quite 18 yet, we're sort of going through, you know,

because he's still classed as being in education at the moment. I think if I can come in, Please do. I think it's Laura, we work together and I think some of the things that we see for people coming into transition at that age is the uncertainty and it's what Joe's expressing. It is unknown, but what we do know is that whilst the government have talked about reforming SEND, where is the support for adults with a learning disability? So for somebody like Leon, you know, he's nonverbal, his learning disability isn't going to change. So he is going to need support throughout his life. And it's making sure you know, Joe is a great advocate for Leon, and

it's how is he able to get his voice heard? Because at the moment, we see a lot of services fighting over who's going to fund people like Liam and making sure that Liam stays in the heart of whatever support he gets and his voice is always heard in that and I think there's a real lack of leadership and understanding in that. We certainly see that on the grassroots level. Well let's talk about the grassroots level as well Laura because I understand with your organisation, there's a number of initiatives that you have for people that are young adults. I was particularly interested in the friendship clubs.

Do you want to describe what you do? Yeah, that is definitely our most popular project. And I think, you know, we're a very small grassroots charity, and I really want to stress that. We're not politicians. And so we are stretched, we're on the ground. And to be on a platform like this is massive for us, to be able to advocate for our members. And we, as a small charity, we use a led.

So that means we're led and run by people, and we're talking a learning disability. So an intellectual disability, not dyslexia. And it's lifelong. And the thing that the members first talked to us about that was really important is that ability to manage friendships as they adults, it's really difficult once they leave school and they go off into, you know, what we now as a independent accommodation or supported living and managing those friendships is really difficult. And so that's how the Friendship Club started

because members said, we wanna see our friends. We wanna go to the pub like you guys do on a night and that's really hard for us. And I guess that's why, but what we see in the pub it's not just about, yes, it looks like everybody's having a great time and they are. And, but it's building confidence, it's building friendships, it's reducing stigma. But I think the key thing that we see is that, you know, we've been going, the friendship clubs

have been going 16 years, we don't get funding for that. I mean, we are very fortunate that Dorset Council give us a grant every year to support the work we do in enabling people to speak up because they get it, but there's no guarantee on that. But also we see that through those trusted relationships, so our staff team have been around, people get to know us and through the peer friendships that people make, so people with learning disabilities looking out for each other. We hear stories, we pick up things that are happening at an early stage and then prevent a crisis from happening. So let's get specific on that. So you're basically helping people go to the pub, kind of get familiar with surroundings, perhaps, you know, paying for drinks, all those sort of very practical life skills.

But with the last aspect you were talking about, what were your concerns? I think it, so based on that, and we all need friendship, and that enables us to speak up. I think having those friends, having those opportunities to meet other people and to talk. And we do run speaking up groups, but particularly at Friendship Club and then through the speaking up groups, it gives people a platform to come together and talk about things that we all do when we go to the pub. We talk to our friends about what's going wrong in our lives. And this is a place where people with learning disabilities can do that. And it might be that, you know, for example, in the last couple of months, we've supported somebody who was at risk of digital, you know, through the

digital divide was financial fraud. And we were able to stop them giving away more money. So it's those bits where we can get in early, where we can see these things happening. And I think, you know, I guess one of the reasons we are on today is because, you know, thanks to Henry Smith charity and social finance, they have come in and over the last three years, they've evaluated groups like us funded and evaluated what we do and another 14 charities like us around the country. And we've never been able to put a value on what we do. We know it makes them, it costs, it saves money. We know it changes people's lives, but we're so busy doing it. We can't actually evaluate it.

And now they have. And what they've said in this report is that for every one pound that is invested in the work we do, that makes an estimated saving of £12. That's massive. And this is the figures, of course, that they have put forward in their particular report. I will read a response from the Department of Health and Social Care. They have spoken about being committed to championing the rights of disabled people, that they will work with them so their voices are at the heart of all that we do. They also say they're launching an independent commission into adult social care, which will start a national conversation about what social care support, working age,

disabled adults, older people and their families should expect. They also say we're working across government to identify opportunities to better support people transitioning into adult social care. But I would be curious, Laura, I mean, how difficult is it to make those decisions with the families that you work with about how much autonomy to give somebody and that transition into early adulthood? So I guess if we take it back into that, I guess, you know, what we do is a little bit different.

We know we're not working with families. So we are run and led by people with learning disabilities. And whilst we absolutely hear the voices of parents because they talk to us about the issues that they're experiencing, you know, as a tiny, and I'm talking, we are a tiny charity, there's four of us, as a tiny, and I'm talking, we are a tiny charity, there's four of us, you know, that, including somebody with a learning disability. So, so we, we work closely with other services with with Dorset Parent Care Council, for example, around supporting parents to manage transition. And I guess, you know, what we can do on a grand level is make sure that we have a place where people like Leon, who's transitioning, can create friendships outside of, you know, family services and the statutory services.

But that's where the savings are made. And I think, you know, there's lots of, you know, I've been in the sector for sort of 25 years, and there's been one review after another. And what I've seen is charities like us, many have folded. We had a really difficult year last year, we nearly weren't here, but we were able to get the funding to just about keep going.

There's no guarantee. And I think what we've seen in this report that if we're not here, there is and you can hear it from people with learning disabilities. I mean, I would say, I know you're going to be Stencils on Thursday, but come to Dorset and talk to our members at a Friendship

Club event, because they tell it the best about the difference that what we do makes to their lives and the savings. And if, you know, I know that social finance have put forward a case for an advocacy fund in the next spending review in March. And we've got a government that says that they're really committed to a preventative and partnership agenda with civil society and charities. This is it. This is what we're doing. We are, you want a quick win? You know, this is how we can do this. And so kind of, you know, we've got a platform, we've never had a platform.

And I guess the biggest message is, you know, we're not going to be here if we don't get that funding in that platform. Laura Kerr, manager at People First in Dorset. And we also heard from Joe White, who is mum, to Leon. Thank you both so much. A lot of you were getting in touch about ambition and ambitious. Here's another message that came in. Ray Ambition. About 20 years ago I was a senior designer at a small agency where I'd worked for a decade. I repeatedly saw men being promoted ahead of me. When it happened again I handed in my notice and called out my bosses on it. Their response they told me I was less ambitious than the

man that they had promoted. That remark stuck with me. I couldn't understand what they meant. Since then I've built my own company, worked with numerous clients, written five successful books and expanded into several areas. The man who got that promotion, he's still in that same job. 84844 if you would like to get in touch with us on that or anything else. Well as we've been talking about ambition this morning, some call it like that urge to try something new and different, maybe something that scares you. That's exactly what my next guest, Caitlin O'Rian, did. She went to drama school and started acting

when she was 22, but two years ago then decided to take the leap and try something new, spoken word poetry. You might have seen a video of her performing one of her poems. It's called At What Point It Went Viral. Caitlin joins me in the studio. Good morning. Thank you so much for having me. This is a bit of a dream come true.

Glad to hear it. You know, I think, Caitlin, we should start with some of your work so we can get into exactly all these aspects that so many people have been talking about. You're going to perform an excerpt of At What Point? Yeah. Okay, go for it. At what point do you tell a girl at parks not just for play? At night time stay away, there's danger lurking all around. Around about dusk the rustles in the bushes might be home to something much more menacing than bushy-tailed creatures who are out to steal your crisps. The risks of a shortcut. I bet your taxis are kept afloat

out of women's pockets, make their profits as the cons of walking home alone far outweighs the pros and does she know that she'll pay for a taxi to avoid getting murdered by a stranger then spend the entire journey aware of the danger that this might be the stranger who will finally murder her? If I had a pound for all the pounds lost due to the cost of having to consider getting home without a costman, I still wouldn't earn the same as men. But then again, the system's rigged to constantly remind us our beauty is behind us, and so we must invest in lotions and potions, the extent of the ocean to maintain a sense of relevance. I'm relatively sure if I'd

have saved all the money that promised flatter tummies or younger skin or looking thin or better hair or buying uncomfortable underwear for him, for him, for him, well I'd be halfway to a mortgage. But more than that, I'd have a sense of power back. Sometimes I wonder who I'd be if I existed just for me, if my entire existence hadn't consisted of persistently viewing myself through a male's gaze, if the haze lifted and I could wear whatever I want without consequence and yet, I'm well aware of the hypocrisy of getting older, I'm well aware that not too far from now their looks I once despised I'll begin to crave. It's exposing in their light but so much colder in their shade. Do you know how it feels to hover above yourself? Hyper

aware. The left foot in the present, the right not really there because it's running away with itself. Preparing itself for what could possibly go wrong because it has gone wrong. I'm tired of constant vigilance. I'm tired of constant vigils. They seem to be rising without uprising and yet we act surprised every time another woman gets killed. Don't be too nice, it'll get you killed. Don't be so rude, it'll get you killed. Socialised into a politeness that still gets us killed. They rap bitch at us and then within the same breath they complain they're not

getting enough respect and it's reflected in real life. It's reflected in banter with the guys. It's reflected in the wage gap, the thigh gap, the orgasm gap, the fact that victims are rarely believed, the fact that justice is barely achieved, the fact that it costs us so much more to just be. So tell me, because I want to hear what you have to say for it. At what point do you tell your girl her life is only worth what she is able to pay for it? That is Caitlin O'Ryne. At what point? It is so powerful and so many people have shared it obviously. When did you write it? What was it behind it for you?

So I actually wrote it like over a year ago and to be honest I think it was in light of Sarah Everard's murder and I'd just moved house and I remember sitting in my bedroom and being so aware of it because I used to live just around the corner from where she was taken from and I was sat in my room and I was looking out and there was a park opposite and I was just thinking gosh like at what point as women are we told to be so scared and it just kind of like flew out of me really once I started writing it I think you know I consume so much media about it anyway because it's something that I'm passionate about and I think I found it very cathartic writing it and It's just been amazing that it's resonated with so many people. What have people said to you? It's yeah, it's been quite overwhelming actually like it's been overwhelmingly positive when when it was shared online and it started blowing up

I was very aware that it might fall into the kind of men's sphere where it would get quite a lot of criticism. But it's been overwhelmingly positive and actually the comments in it have just been people sharing their experience, a lot of women sharing their experience and I think feeling grateful that their experience has been put into words. You know, it was overwhelming at first because I felt almost this duty to read everything that people were sharing. Because I wrote it for myself in my bedroom and as soon as you start performing something, the first time you perform it is very nerve racking but the more you share it, the less it kind of feels like it's yours anymore and

it's just kind of out in the ether. But I think what happened when it went viral and then suddenly receiving all of these messages, it really brought home to me my own feelings about why I wrote it and my own frustrations and anger and sadness that this is what we have to experience. But there's catharsis in sharing and I think knowing that so many women feel it whilst terribly upsetting is also very validating. I think I was struck really from your first line when you talked about like what point do you share it with the young girl?

Yeah, yeah. I think that was, I was genuinely asking myself that. It just feels like it's something that I have forever been aware of. Yes, well that's what I think I started thinking of as well, like when does the message come to you or how does it come to you or But somehow it's internalized among many. Yeah, completely because I don't remember being sat down by my parents and having had that conversation but I think just the way that we're socialized as women is just constantly drip fed into our psyche that we're not safe and that we are hyper vigilant constantly and that's you know, that's why I wrote the bit about sometimes I wonder who I'd be if I existed just for me because I actually don't know who I'd be if I wasn't hyper vigilant all the

time, if I wasn't constantly aware that something might happen. And I just think that's so sad that it's a freedom that many women aren't allowed to experience. I always wonder as well what with spoken word because you're kind of brought to this word and then that word. Are you thinking in advance exactly what words you're going to emphasize? Well I guess there's a rhythm to it. Yeah. So but that's why I find it so satisfying. I always say like my favorite thing, the reason that I write poetry is because it takes these huge emotions that can feel quite overwhelming and then there's something very satisfying about kind of wrangling it and bringing it down to, you know, two concise lines that sometimes rhyme and sometimes don't, because they don't have to.

But there is a satisfying element to that, which I think means that I have to take time with my feelings to make sure that I have been precise in the way that I'm saying them. And I just find that a really enjoyable experience. Because it's precise and measured even though the message or the emotions or the feelings are so huge, maybe rage-filled, maybe I agree. Well this is something that I'm super conscious of because I think women have a right to feel rage and to feel angry and I honestly think that a lot of

women's people pleasing aspects come from not being given space to feel those things but the the negative side of that is that it can alienate men and actually what we want to do is bring men in so in my writing and specifically my performances as well I'm always really conscious that whilst my writing might be provocative and it might be uncomfortable to listen to, I never want to be on a soapbox, so to speak, and to be shouting it into an audience because I just think ultimately that would turn people off from listening. I always want to feel like I'm inviting people in and, you know, we're all victims of this thing we call the patriarchy, you know, men as well. And I just think the way that we're going to overcome many of the things that I talk about in this is working together and bringing men into that space as well. So obviously a lot of serious issues that you mentioned there as well. But I want to turn to something a little bit lighter than many women would also have experienced, which is about the ladies lose.

Yes. Oh, de toilette. have experienced which is about the ladies lose yes Oh to toilet yeah so I have a poem called Oh to toilet which another brilliant poem poet George Jones had a poem called Oh to the ladies lose and I had that title at one point but I had to change it because she'd got there first I think our joke is that every woman probably has a note of the ladies lose with yeah we all do but that's it and you know what I write provocative things but also I really want to celebrate women and like spaces that women kind of come together and there's lightness there and I just think the ladies lose is such a good example of the camaraderie and the love that women have for each other when it feels like

we're pitted against each other in society and yeah I love performing that one and again it really resonates with people as a space of like I say it's like the backstage world away from men's eyes where women can really let their hair down and put their hair up and put their makeup on you know pick each other up and it's like a therapy space. Make new best friends. Absolutely you come away and yeah you've been asked to be someone's bridesmaid you know it's an amazing space

but yeah so we need to celebrate those places as well because you know it's hard being a woman but it's also the best and I would never change it. Caitlin O'Ryne thanks very much you can see Caitlin performing live as part of the reigning women festival at the Old Market in Brighton and that is on the 19th of February. Tomorrow on Women's Hour we'll be hearing from Ellie Wilson, a woman who wants victims to have the right to attend parole hearings, find out why she wants that right and also the impact it could have. Plus the Women's Prize for Fiction now includes a new category – female non-fiction authors. All tomorrow at 10. See you here. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, Greg Jenner here. I am the host of You're Dead to Me from BBC Radio 4. We are for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. coffee, to the reign of Catherine of Medici of France. We are looking at the Arts and Crafts movement and the life of Sojourner Truth and how cuneiform writing systems worked in the Bronze Age. Loads of different stuff. It's a fantastic series. It's funny. We get

great historians. We get great comedians. So if you want to listen to You're Dead to Me, listen first on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevin, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.