Woman's Hour - Maternity care, Joanna Cherry, Heavy periods

Episode Date: June 22, 2026

Maternity care and its shortcomings will be in the spotlight over the next fortnight, as the biggest maternity inquiry in the history of NHS England prepares to report its findings. The independent review by former midwife, Donna Ockenden, has looked into maternity services at Nottingham University Hospitals NHS Trust. Meanwhile new figures from the Royal College of Midwives show that more than nine out of 10 of those polled felt unsafe staffing levels are directly impacting the quality of care they provide for women and babies. Next week we'll also hear the recommendations of a national review by Baroness Amos. BBC's social affairs correspondent, Michael Buchanan, talks to presenter Nuala McGovern about what we know so far. Joanna Cherry was elected as an MP in 2015, part of the SNP landslide when they took 56 out of 59 Scottish seats, just a year after the referendum on Scottish independence resulted in a No vote. Her memoir, Keeping the Dream Alive, captures the disappointment and euphoria of that time. Joanna went on to lose her seat in 2024 and has become a vocal critic of the party, and of Nicola Sturgeon’s leadership. She was also well-known for expressing gender-critical views and concerns at a time when the SNP was trying to deliver a gender self-ID law in Scotland. She joins presenter Nuala McGovern to talk about that "tumultuous decade" in Scottish politics.A new study from the Universities of Exeter and Bristol is looking into how heavy periods impact daily life. Led by Gemma Sharp, a Professor of Epidemiology at Exeter, researchers will collect real-time data from thousands of participants to help us understand the relationship between periods - particularly heavy periods - and our energy levels, sleep and mood. Did you know that mini golf has feminist roots? A playful and ‘playable’ exhibition, The Art of Mini Golf, has just opened at the Battersea Arts Centre in London, channelling the inclusive, subversive spirit of the game’s female founders. Nuala's joined by curator Grace Herbert and one of the featured artists, Delaine Le Bas, to hear more about mini golf's hidden history and the art it’s inspired.Presented by: Nuala McGovern Produced by: Sarah Jane Griffiths

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The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. Hello, this is Newellamoghren, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. Well, as you've been hearing, the Prime Minister resigned this morning and laid out a timetable for his successor. He ended with an emotional tribute to his wife and children. But Keir Starrmer's work isn't done yet.

And one issue he will have to deal with this week is maternity care. The findings of the biggest maternity inquiry in the history of the NHS will be released on Wednesday. This hour, we'll take a look ahead. Also today, Joanna Cherry, the former S&P, MP, has written her memoir, keeping the dream alive. It charts her tumultuous decade in Scottish politics and there is a lot to discuss with her.

That's also coming up. Staying with Scotland, did you know that's where Minigolf has its rebellious origins? When women were excluded from playing with men on golf courses, miniature golf was born. We're going to hear more about the history and the playable exhibition, the art of Minigolf, which is on now in London,

and it is designed by nine female artists. Plus, if you have heavy menstrual bleeding, you'll know how debilitating it can be. And you may have found it hard to get the help that you need. But a new study wants to find out the impact of such periods on your daily life. We're going to hear from the researchers. And I'd also like to hear from you. What has been the effect of heavy bleeds every month on your day-to-day life? Maybe it's tiredness, perhaps having to deal with bleeding through to your clothes or your bedding.

have you had to avoid certain activities or take off time from work because of those periods? I want to hear it all. You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website

for a WhatsApp message or voice note. The number is 0-3-700-100-444-4. Now, whatever is going on at the top level of government this week, as I mentioned, there's one story that should not be overshadowed. is maternity care and its shortcomings in England. More than nine in 10 midwives in a poll of 3,500 have said that unsafe staffing levels are directly impacting the quality of care

that they provide for women and babies. And more than three quarters have considered leaving the profession in the past year with safety concerns among the top reasons. That is according to the survey by the Royal College of Midwives. And it comes in the week of the findings of, the biggest maternity inquiry in the history of the NHS. This is an independent review by the former midwife, Donna Ockenden, into maternity services at University, Nottingham University Hospital's NHS Trust.

The BBC social affairs correspondent, Michael Buchanan, has been covering this story for years. He's on his way to Nottingham now, but has a few minutes for us on Women's Hour. Michael, good to have you back with us. Remind us about the inquiry report findings that are due out this Wednesday. Yes, good morning. So this will be published on Wednesday morning, and it is the Ockenden Review of Nottingham Care. It is looking across two hospitals in the city, the Queen's Medical Centre, and the City Hospital, and it'll look at maternity care from 2012 until the middle of 2025. It's looking at about two and a half thousand cases, and the number of cases means that it is the largest maternity review, as you said, in the history of the NHS. The nature of these reviews is that the

the majority, the overwhelming majority of cases will have been examined and found to have had no issues, whatever was investigated. But there is likely to have been hundreds of incidents over that, just over a decade in which poor care was provided to the families involved. It has been a long wait for those families four years ago since it began. some of the families, I believe, are calling for a statutory public inquiry into maternity services across England. What more can you tell us about that? So the Nottingham families, and indeed the families before that in Shrewsbury and Telford, where Donna Ockenden has previously worked,

have, I've got confidence in Auckland and her team to get to the bottom of what was happening in Nottingham in this particular case. But the trouble they have is that previously and on Wednesday as well there will be no accountability for for why these mistakes happen now particularly in Nottingham we know that over 800 staff have engaged with the Auckland Review that's a huge difference to what happened in Shrewsbury and Telford where staff were less willing to come forward so you're going to get those insights but the question that will be asked on Wednesday is the extent to

which the leadership of those organisations which was of the Nottingham hospitals which was fairly stable for a number of years how much did they engage with the review and to what extent have they been held accountable. And the lessons from history is that senior leaders within the NHS do not get held accountable for these errors and these failings. And that is why a number of families are calling for a public inquiry, because that's the way that they believe that this accountability can be achieved. Going back to the inquiry that has taken place, is there anything that we know so far from it? Well, we don't know the headlines, but we know that some of the issues that will be

spoken about will be to do with racism. There's certainly been a problem of people, families and Nottingham receiving poor care that Ockenden has said in a letter to the Trust a couple of years ago she'd found countless examples of poor

discriminatory and racist behaviour towards women and this the previous maternity reviews in England have by and large focused on rural areas in the country. This is the first that's focused essentially on a with a large multi-ethnic population. And we know that poor outcomes,

that outcomes in maternity care are poorer for families from black and Asian backgrounds. So this will be an inquiry that will give us an insight into why that might be happening. We know from research studies some of the reasons for that to do with a belief that, for instance, that black women can tolerate more pain, but we should get some more granular insights

from Nottingham on that. There's certainly going to be an issue of poor staffing and short staffing. We know that because that has come up. because that has come up in a whistleblowing letter from 2018 that midwives wrote to the leadership of the trust essentially saying that if you don't get more midwives onto the front line into these labour wards, we are going to have errors.

And we know from the trust's own examination of what happened to that letter that it was not dealt with appropriately. So there will be other issues that have come up in previous inquiries to do with culture and leadership as well. I've no doubt in a failure to learn from mistakes. but in terms of I think racism and staffing will be two key elements of what's announced in Nottingham and Wednesday. Yeah, I was mentioning some figures at the top there, Michael, as well. There have been concerns about safety in the same week as the Royal College of Midwives findings.

But I suppose the question might be whether they will change anything in that respect when it comes to some of those concerns that those working in that area have. Well, the government have said that they will implement, not just the recommendations from the Nottingham Review on Wednesday, but then you're going to get the Baroness Amos, which is a national inquiry into maternity care. She's due to publish the recommendations the following week. And the government then say that they will not let those recommendations sit on the shelf and that there are more midwives working in the NHS than there ever has been. But several things are going on at the one time when you hear something like that. That is numerically through, but a lot of the staff that have been hired in recent years have moved into midwifery roles that aren't necessarily front line. And what I mean by front line, when people think of midwives, they typically think of the person who's there when the baby is being born. And a lot of the new roles have been in governance that have been in support services. Now, these roles are necessary and needed in order to provide the framework for safe care. But a lot of it is a lot of word midwives on the front line are saying,

in the moment on that night shift, do I have enough colleagues to help me? And that is something that the government will have to look at in light of what the service is, probably in light of what Ockenden says of Wednesday, and highly likely in light of what Amos says next week as well. Yeah, so that is good for people to know.

There's kind of two tracks that are continuing with Donna Ockenton, one, which is this week, Baroness Amos, the Government Commissioned Review into maternity services next week. But with Baroness Amos, is there any more details that we know about that particular review away from the safety? or the midwives, should I say,

and their concerns of safety? Well, she's examining 12. She's examining care across England. She's been looking in particular at 12 trust, not to come to any conclusions on the care that they have provided, but essentially to try and understand what's happening nationally

through the prism of these 12 cases. She's produced an interim report and a lot of the interim findings that she has found have, if you like, been an amalgamation of what we've heard from previous inquiry. So they've talked about a failure to provide compassionate and appropriate care, a failure to listen to women,

a failure to learn lessons, cultural issues within maternity services. And again, in one of her interim reports, she said as well that she'd come across unacceptable racist practice as well. So the headlines of what she appears to be heading towards have been published, but the detailed conclusions won't be known until the following week. And the latest position of the trust, the Department of Health and Social Care when it comes to Nottingham?

Well, the trust have been, have, you know, the leadership of the Nottingham University Hospital's trust has changed significantly since Auckland was announced in 2022. They've had a new chief executive, Anthony May for instance, and he has gone out of his way in order

to try and build relationship with the families who have been harmed by poor maternity care and the wider community in the city as well on the wider county. The Care Quality Commission, regulator has acknowledged that there has been improvements in maternity care. The rating went from inadequate to requires improvement

and if you speak to the leadership at Nottingham they will say to you that that is one step on the right direction but there is much, much more to be done. They are committed to implementing the findings of the Auckland Review and in fact they say they've been working with Auckland for a number of years not to wait for her to deliver a sort of weighty report on Wednesday but to talk to her over the years

in interim fashions to understand. what you're seeing almost in real time and to try and put in improvements in care as they go along. The Department of Health, as I said, I say that they will implement the Ockenden Review and the Amos Review and they're determined that these recommendations will not, as they

say, sit on the shelf, which has happened with previous inquiries, which is why more inquiries, not just in Nottingham, but in Leeds and in Sussex have been announced already. And a lot of political turmoil, obviously this morning and we're not sure exactly what the future will look like. But it

was reported that some of the families have met with the new health secretary, James Murray, who took over from West Streeting. Do we know how that meeting went or what they're calling for? Well, he says that he wanted to meet them ahead of the Auckland and review the Nottingham Families to understand what they had experienced and what they were wanting to happen. And from that, he said that, as I mentioned, that he was determined that the recommendations would not sit on the shelf. there is a maternity advisor

that's been appointed by the government an MP called Michelle Welsh who is a Nottinghamshire MP and she says that she is in discussions with the Department of Health over whether there should be a public inquiry in particular because of this accountability point but also because of a need for the regulators

they will not be examined in any great deep deal by the Amos Review for instance and a lot of families believe the regulators be that the nursing midfiry council the general medical council that they have not simply acted quickly enough or reacted to what people I've told them and that they need that they have got culpability for many of the feelings in the term to care in England over the previous few years as well. We'll continue covering it this week. Michael Buchanan, thank you very much for

shedding some light this morning on his way to Nottingham as we cover this story. Thank you for all your messages that have already come in about heavy periods. Here's Jody and Cornwall. She says while staying at a guesthouse, I came on my period which was really heavy. I bled through into the mattress. The process was used. humiliating and I had to pay for all the damage done. I felt penalised for being a woman. Sat in Birmingham says heavy periods have ruined large parts of the past 20 years of my life. I've been through surgery for fibroids, even two blood transfusions and various other drugs, but I'm now 44 and it's as bad as ever. Friends and family, despite me telling them, just do not understand the extent of the

bleeding or how this affects my life. I'll read some more of your comments as we go through the program 844-844 if you'd like to get in touch. You know, our listeners make a really important part of this program and we have one of our favourite times of the year just around the corner which very much focuses on you, the listener. It's listener week. The week where you take over the program, you choose the topics. It'll be the first week of August.

We'll be diving into anything you want Women's Hour to talk about. Maybe there's a conversation you've been longing to hear, a question you think we should tackle, or maybe you want to share something about your world with us. We would love to hear from you. So you can text Woman's Hour 84844 as I mentioned or on social media at BBC Woman's Hour or email us through our website with all your creative, amazing ideas. We just love hearing them and then bringing them to life on air. Now my next guest is Joanna Cherry.

She was elected as an MP in 2015 as part of the SMP landslide in that general election when they took 56 out of the 59 Scottish seats. That was just a year after the referendum on Scottish independence had resulted in a no vote. Joanna's memoir, keeping the dream alive, captures the disappointment and the euphoria of that time for those supporting the nationalist cause. By the time Joanna lost her Westminster receipt, that was in 2024, alongside with the majority of her SNP colleagues, she was disillusioned with the party and she became a vocal critic, including of the leadership of Nicola Sturgeon. Now, you might be most familiar with Joanna for her expression of gender-critical. views and concerns at a time when her party was trying to deliver gender self-ID in Scotland.

She has returned to the law, her career before entering Parliament, and written this account of what she calls a tumultuous decade in Scottish politics. Joanna Cherry joins me down the line from Edinburgh. Good morning. Good morning, Nula. Thanks for having me on. Now, no stranger to a power struggle yourself. How do you see how things have been playing out outside 10 Downing Street this morning? Well, I mean, it's been a long time coming, hasn't it? But, you know, on a personal level, one cannot help but feel sorry for Keir Starmer. I worked quite closely with Keir over the years at Westminster on a number of things, including the Investigatory Powers Bill, when we opposed the Snoopers Charter, and I came to know and respect him. But I think what's

happened to him is very typical of a malaise. our modern politics north and south of the border whereby political parties have become very focused on winning elections but they don't really know what to do with the power that they get when they win

and you know politics is about way more than just winning elections yes you have to win elections before you can actually do anything but you need to have a plan and I think this is where Keir fell down and it's also in my opinion where the SNP have fallen down over the last decade.

And I want to come to that, but that is interesting. You think that Sir Keir Starmour didn't know what to do with the power? Well, that's what seems. I mean, he's made some terrible mistakes. I think one of the first things he did was to take the winter fuel payment away from pensioners and was deeply unpopular policy. And actually one of the first cases I was involved in when I went back to my practice at the Scottish Bar as a case he was representing two pensioners

who sought to judicially review that decision. and you know the Labour Party I mean you know if I lived south of the border and wasn't an independent supporter I would be a labour supporter that's where my sort of political heart is

I saw that in your book and I was a member of the Labour Party when I was younger but you know they exist to they exist to create you know transformative change for working people and they haven't done that

and it was an extraordinary mandate that he won albeit only on a third of the vote. And they just seem to have lost their way ideologically. And one hopes that a new leader will be able to refine their mojo, if you like. It was really interesting to see how you had worked with Kirstarmer, just in the lead of us. I was reading it over the weekend, knowing what was happening in Westminster.

But let me move north of the border and talk first, perhaps, also in the news, Peter Murrell, the former SMP chief executive. he pled guilty to embezzling more than £400,000 from the party is due to be sentenced for tomorrow, actually. You resigned from the National Executive Committee, the NEC, of the SMP in 2021, citing transparency issues. But did you ever suspect financial misconduct on this scale? Not on this scale.

I didn't suspect criminality, but I, along with many other members of the party at that time, were concerned about what had happened to, a fund that had been raised, not just from SNP members, but also from members of the public, to fund a second independence referendum. Over £600,000 had been raised.

And as a result of two special appeals, and that money was supposed to be ring-fenced, but it had disappeared from the SNP accounts. That's back sort of 2019-2020. And I and a number of other party members got ourselves elected to the National Executive Committee with a huge mandate from the membership on a manifesto

to improve the internal democracy of the party and to find out what had happened to that money. And we were frustrated at every turn in trying to find out what had happened to the ring-fenced fund. And we weren't just frustrated. We were also demonised for asking legitimate questions, the kind of questions that anybody on the National Executive Committee

of a party ought to be asking. And one by one, we resigned from the, NEC. And of course, some of your listeners may have seen a video of one of the meetings where we were asking questions, where Nicola Sturgeon told us that it was nothing to worry about, and I quote, we should be very careful about asking questions about the finances. And so it's not really a surprise to me that there has been a huge problem with the SNP's finances, but it has been a surprise to me to see the scale and the length of time. over which Peter Murrell embezzled money and the things that he spent it on. The thing is, Nula, the people who gave money to the party and the members of the public who gave money to the Independence Referendum Fund

were largely working class people who believed in the cause of Scottish independence and gave what they could afford and what they could probably ill afford in difficult times believing in that. And to find out that that money has been stolen by the chief executive of the party and spent on luxury items,

it's the most appalling betrayal of trust. Let me stay on this story for a moment. There is a report in the telegraph this morning that they understand that police suspect Merle may have used a £100,000 loan back to the party to throw people off the cent. You've expressed the view that Nicola Sturgeon showed, and I'm quoting, a remarkable lack of curiosity, unquote,

over concerns regarding party finances while leader. She has said she was deceived, betrayed, and lied to by her estranged husband. Why are you calling for an independent inquiry? Well, Nicola is trying to present herself as the wronged wife, and nobody's criticising her for being the wife of Peter Murrell. The respect in which she's being criticised is because she was the leader of the party

and his boss at the material time, and because of the way she ran the party in which questioning was shut down and any internal dissent was stamped on very, very firmly. And on the issue of the inquiry, I think what Peter Marl has pled guilty to and indeed what he was charged with is probably the tip of the iceberg

of wrongdoing with the SNP finances. And this issue of the loan, I haven't read the Telegraph report in full, but I'm aware of it, there's a lot more that needs to be investigated other than just what he has pled guilty to. And I do not have a response to what you are alleging there it being the tip of the iceberg from Peter Murrell.

In relation to Nicholas Sturgeon instead, Amr-Anwar, who's Nicholas Sturgeon's solicitor, did respond in kind when I said we were speaking to you. And she said she has, Nicholas Sturgeon's solicitor said, she has no interest in anything that Joanna Cherry has to say. Well, I'm sorry that she feels that way, but I'm afraid to say that that sort of personal remark is very typical of Nicholas Sturgeon's behaviour

when she's faced with criticism in that she attacks the person doing the criticism rather than addressing the substance of the criticism. And my book addresses ideas and the substance of criticism rather than attacking people on a personalised basis. Now, I've had to put up with quite a lot at the hands of Nicholas Sturgeon. I've been accused of being a transphobe and a bigot,

which I found extremely offensive as somebody who's devoted their life to the cause of feminism and the cause of gay and lesbian rights. How dare she do that? But not only how dare she do that to me, how dare she do that to so many women who have been vindicated in their criticisms

of her self-identification policies? And I'm talking about the women of Four Women Scotland. I'm talking about the women and men of LGBT alliance. Let's speak about that specifically, if that's okay. I do also want to add. that we approach the SMP for a statement but they haven't provided one yet. But there's a couple of issues that I want to get to

in our time that we have with you. Let me move on to sex and gender and I'll come back to independence. Scotland's gender recognition reform bill passed in Holyrood, but it was blocked by Westminster in 2023 citing concerns around the Equality Act. On Friday,

some may not be aware of this yet, that Judge Lady Ross ruled that prison guidance which allows some transgender prisoners to be held in jails matching their gender identity rather than their sex at birth is unlawful. She said sex segregation in prisons must be based on biological sex based on a Supreme Court ruling on the definition of a woman in Equality's Law in April last year.

Campaign Group for Women's Scotland that you mentioned had challenged the Scottish government guidance through a judicial review saying only those born biologically female should be held in the women's estate. This whole debate, Joanna, has played out, in the courts. Do you feel the argument in the law anyway has now been settled? Yes, and I feel that the concerns of women like me have been utterly vindicated. When Nicholas Sturgeon sought to impose the policy of self-identification of sex on the SNP,

because it was never properly discussed at any of our conferences, there were many people within the party and without who pointed out that self-identification of sex would have implications. for women's dignity, privacy and safety, and for the rights of lesbians, gay men and bisexuals who are same sex attracted and not same gender attracted. And we also pointed out that it would have implications

under the Equality Act and also implications for human rights. And we have been wholly vindicated by a series of court victories. You've mentioned the Supreme Court victory won by four women's Scott with the support of the lesbian interveners from LGBT Alliance, Scottish Lesbians and the Lesbian

Project and also with the support of sex matters. You've also mentioned the victory last week about Scottish Prison Service policy. But before those victories, there were also the victories of Maya Forstatter and Alison Bailey who were discriminated against in their workplace

for holding the views which I hold. So I think we have been vindicated but what I'd like to add to that, Nula, is for my pains in pointing out my concerns I was vilified and demonised

within my own political party but also I faced very serious death threats on occasion I had to have a police escort at my constituency surgery in Edinburgh. I always had to have a security guard at my surgeries thereafter. I believed very strongly

when I was an MP that I should meet members of the public. A member of the Scottish National Party threatened to rape me because of my views and he was convicted of making that threat against me and I had no support whatsoever from the party and nobody

including Nicola Sturgeon has ever condemned that individual. The implication being that it's okay to threaten to rape a gender critical women. So the reason I'm telling you all of this is not a poor me story. It's to point out that if I reasonably, if I've

Well, privileged middle-class professional women like me who held the privileged position of a member of Parliament and King's Council had to face those sort of threats and abuse for speaking up for the rights of women and lesbians. How much more difficult would it be for an ordinary working-class women who's concerned about male-bodied people in the changing room at her gym or men in her rape crisis support group? So something's gone very wrong in our society across the UK

that people who've ultimately been proven to be right have been treated so appallingly by various institutions, including political parties like the SNP. And I know Rosie Duffield had similar experiences in the Labour Party. Let me just ask you briefly before we move on to independence because you talk about the law and the victories as you see them. The social realities, though, do you feel that has been, what would I say, settled?

Because even Judge Lady Ross, for example, in that story that we mentioned, she acknowledged that exceptional circumstances could arise. Yeah, I mean, for example, in the prison service, if there are men who identify as women prisoners, then they might need to be accommodated separately within the men's prison. But they shouldn't be put in with vulnerable women. But I think it's very important to take a step back here and to acknowledge that, thankfully, in the United Kingdom,

we have very strong rights for minorities, including same-sex attracted people and people who identify as transgender under the Equality Act. People who identify as transgender have exactly the same rights as everybody else not to be discriminated against harassed or victimised and they have the same human rights as everybody else.

What they don't have is the right to self-identify as the opposite sex. That right is not recognised in the law of the United Kingdom or indeed in international law. There's no right to self-identify as the opposite sex. So I think a moral panic by those who wanted self-ID has been created. And I have trans friends who feel that trans activism has damaged the quality of their lives. And that, of course, would be up for debate.

As we know, it's a contentious controversial subject and there be money that disagree with the way that you frame it. Indeed, but I think it's really important for your listeners to understand that there are many women like me who have raised legitimate concerns and who have been vindicated in those concerns because I think it will be empowering for your listeners to hear that. Now, I know you often, because I'm a listener to women's are going to hear it, and I know that you often give a platform to women

and men who identify as women, hold the opposite view for me and that's fine. You know, I support free speech but I think it's very important for your listeners to know that there are many women out there who hold the view that I hold and there's nothing wrong in holding that view and indeed they have the law on their side. And that, I think, Women's Hour, we hear from everybody

that's very much part of our structure and the meaning that we have with this programme to hear from as many voices and as many different points of view and then our listener can decide. But we are having you on today for your memoir. You go into this in great detail, of course, in your book as well. One other thing that you do go into is independence. You've abandoned the SMP, but not the ideal of Scottish independence.

This is a cause you've supported since you were a child. But how realistic is it, given SMP-led governments in Holyrood since 2007, have not been able to deliver it? Well, the S&P-led government in Holyrood delivered an independence reference, in 2014, which we lost. But opinion polls still show that 50% of people in Scotland support independence. Support for the SNP has dropped. They've lost a lot of members, including recently me.

And although they won the recent election, they won it on, I think it was 38% of the vote overall because the opposition was divided. Hardly a resounding mandate. And one of the things that my memoir seeks to do, is to explore really why, despite back-to-back election victory, some of them quite stunning since 2015, despite all the opportunities of the Brexit years,

despite Boris Johnson's premiership, the peak of Nicola's popularity during the COVID years, the peak of SNP's SNP support at that time, and the madness of Lestruss's administration, despite all these opportunities for the cause of independence. The SNP have not been in. able to move the cause forward. And one of the things that really troubles me and troubled me while I was on SNPMP, was the lack of effort put in by the party to answering some of the questions

that troubled people during the last independence referendum, such as what will happen to people's pensions when Scotland becomes independent currency issues and issues about how Scotland rejoins the European Union. I believe that there are answers to all of these questions. And during my time as a party member and particularly as an MP, I fought from inside the party to try and get the party to look at these issues in detail. But I'm afraid the no debate mantra of trans activism was carried over by Nicholas Sturgeon

into the area of independence. So there was no proper debate about these issues within the party. What my memoir seeks to do is to look at what's gone wrong so that we can learn from what's gone wrong and take that into the future and succeed. Now, there are many people in Scotland who support independents who are not members of the SNP.

I believe the SNP has over the last 10 years failed in its supposed leadership of the independence movement and what's needed to take the cause of independence forward is a cross-party civic movement. So let's see. That's what I would like to see. As you say was your book title, which riffs on Alex Salmon, I should say as well, who was a hero of yours in many ways.

just as I let you go out the door, so to speak, the Labour politician George Robertson famously said that devolution would kill nationalism stone dead. He was right? I don't think so. Well, given that the SNP have been in power for 20 years at Holyrood and that independence now commands 50% support. When George Robertson said that,

independence commanded about 20% support. So much as I've got to know George over the years and I'm rather fond of him in an odd sort of way. I think he was completely wrong about that as he's been wrong about a number of things. Joanna Cherry, we'll leave it there. Thank you very much for coming on this morning. And as I mentioned,

her book is her memoir, keeping the dream alive that looks at a tumultuous 10 years in Scottish politics, tumultuous morning this morning, as well at 10 Downing Street, which if you'd like to follow along the world at 1, we'll be going into great detail at that on Radio 4. Thanks for all your messages on periods.

I want to turn to a couple of them. I'm 36. It took about two decades to get a diagnosis of antedinomyosis. I would bleed so heavily. It turned out. My ferretin store levels were languishing down at 10 nanograms per millilitre. I was essentially sent away with the advice of try taking a standard iron supplement. Susie from Bristol, my daughter is heavy periods and goes to a high school where they have strict toilet rules and very limited toilets available at break times.

With blood running down her legs, she has been refused admission to the toilet. as it was within lesson time. Some girls just don't go to school while on their period as is so bad. So that is some of the messages that are coming in. I want to turn to cooking for a moment. What do you cook for yourself when it's only you, nobody else? On Friday's program, Anita spoke to Eli Davis,

the author of The Spinster Cookbook, Culture, Politics and Pleasure in the Single Woman's Kitchen. They discussed the stigma around the word spinster. and Ellie told us why she thinks there's a lot of joy in cooking just for yourself. The word spinster exists in its own terms rather than being in relation to a relationship status. You're not single. There's an absence in single, unattached, uncoupled. All of these, there's something missing, whereas spinster takes up his own space.

So what or who is a spinster cook? Someone who is using the kitchen as a way of understanding and thinking about the life you're building as a single woman. It can be a space of joy, of play, of indulgence, but it can also be a space of defiance, rejection. You can just choose to have a piece of toast for dinner. Or you can spend all day preparing a lovely indulgent feast for yourself. But the point is that all of these things are possible because you're living alone and outside of a certain structure and framework.

When I first moved to London, very young, I made myself homemade pesto from scratch because why not? And somebody was really surprised by that. I said, what, just for yourself? Pesto for yourself. And it made me realize, yeah, because actually it's an act of love nourishing yourself. Yeah, it really is.

It's a way of understanding your own pleasures and what makes you happy. Yeah. That's just such a wonderful thing to be able to give yourself. Well, if you'd like to hear more from cooking for yourself, you can listen to the full interview on BBC Sounds. It's the Woman Hour episode from the 19th of June. The Signal Awards recognize the podcast that define culture and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide.

By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. grow your audience, celebrate your team and stand out. The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. Now, let me move on to periods. I was reading some of your comments that were coming in there. With your period, is it heavy? Is it light?

Do you monitor your energy levels during your cycle? Does it affect your sleep? despite the fact that so many of us menstruate when it comes to our understanding of exactly how those cycles are working and what I can say about our overall health, the research is so limited. A new study from the universities of Exeter and Bristol

is hoping to change that. It's led by Gemma Sharp, a professor of epidemiology at the University of Exeter. Researchers are going to collect real-time data from thousands of participants to help us understand how periods, particularly heavy periods, impact daily lives. Gemma joins me now along with Dr. Sampurna Kundu, who's working on the research team with Gemma.

And has first-hand experience of just how dilating heavy periods can be. Welcome to both of you. Gemma, let me start with you. What are you trying to find out exactly? Yeah, good morning. So the cycle track study, what we're trying to do is recruit women who are already part of these two amazing longitudinal cohort studies that we have here in the year. UK, so the children of the 90s study based in Bristol and a born in Bradford study based in Bradford. And so these women have already provided all this incredible genetic and annual questionnaire

data, clinic data over all the years of their lives. And then we're enhancing these studies by and turning them into kind of world leading resources for menstrual health research by collecting really detailed information about their periods. Let's talk about how you're collecting that data. Yeah, so the menstrual cycle is really complex. And menstrual symptoms like pain, heavy bleeding, PMS, as we've heard from some of your listeners today, they can affect and be affected by all sorts of things.

So we need to collect really comprehensive data on all aspects of women's lives. So we're collecting daily questionnaire data via smartphones. We're doing tests for ferretin, so like a marker of iron stores. We're doing ovulation tests. And then we're asking women to wear a fitness tracker to provide data on things like heart rate, sleep, stress and activity throughout their cycle. We're following them for three menstrual cycles on hundreds of women. and all of this is really unique

and it's never been done on this kind of scale and this level of rigour and this comprehensively before but we also have a very unique and exciting element of the study which is that we're collecting menstrual fluid samples as well and we're building the largest biobank of this kind of sample for this age group

so this is using specially designed period pads where women keen to send them in Was there any hesitation? Yeah, so people thought that women would be really hesitant to kind of deal with the menstrual blood and to send us the samples. Actually, the way that we collect the samples is very kind of hassle-free, mess-free.

And I think sometimes we forget that women deal with menstrual blood a lot. They've done this throughout their lives, and so they're kind of used to it. They pull out a filter paper strip that's in the middle of the pad, and then that just goes cleanly into a canister that then gets posted off to us. So it's kind of mess and hassle-free.

And interestingly, I mean, in all of the kind of research that we did before this research to find out, you know, what's the best way to collect this kind of data? Women were telling us that they'd be very happy to do this, and they're actually really happy that people are asking them about their periods

and are looking at it in such a detailed way, because they're not kind of used to always getting the kind of platform to be able to talk about that period. And I think it's difficult to know what is a heavy period because you don't see other people's. What does qualify as a heavy period? Yeah, so this is a surprisingly difficult thing to answer. But so currently the nice guidelines on what is a heavy period,

which is what people, what doctors would use if you went to the doctor, is that if it's inconvenient and it's affecting your quality of life, then it's heavy and you should seek help and you should be treated. There are other indicators as well. So if somebody is changing a pad or a tampon every one to two hours, or if they're having large clots or they're having flooding episodes where they may be losing a large amount of blood in one go, then those can all be indicators that somebody has,

a very heavy period. Let me bring you in Sampura. Now, I think you are working with Gemma as part of the research team, but very much have personal experience of having heavy periods, as so many of my listeners do that are getting in touch this morning as well. How did they affect your life? So, yeah, thank you for this. As resonating with the listeners' experiences,

I have been experiencing heavy menstrual bleeding from the age of 21. for the past 10 years. And this started when I was diagnosed with PCOS, now renamed as PMOS. I used to have very less number of periods, like only five to six times a year. And when I used to get it, it was extremely heavy and painful. I always have this fear of leaking.

And I have to use multiple pads and super flow pads, and maybe two, three pads at a go, and change frequent. and even sleep on a towel. But then when I used to visit a doctor, it was always dismissed. It is always said as that this is a part of having a period, right, whether it's heavy or painful. But what needs to be addressed is that it is irregular. And for that, they would just prescribe me hormonal contraceptives and also sometimes put it

on my weight that if you reduce your weight, it'll be sorted. And the treatment options were mostly just confined to hormonal contraceptors. And I moved to the UK last year. So before that, all my treatments were in India. So I feel that a lot of stigma and taboo and normalization around these symptoms is also the reason for this kind of dismissal. So it really affects my quality of life with a fear of leaking,

with a fear of judgment and even talking about it openly back in my hometown. But look at you now, very much able to speak about it. Jamma, I mean, what are you hoping that this study might be used for in the future? Yeah, so I think it's really important to recognise how little data there is currently on menstrual health. So all of these amazing cohort studies and registries and things that we have in the UK to understand health are not able to be used for menstrual health research because you don't have this data. So by collecting this data, we're turning these two cohort studies into this world leading resource for menstrual health. That will then go back to the data. We'll all go back to the cohort studies.

So any researcher all over the world can apply to use the data. and that's going to help us address new research questions and hopefully leads to better ways to predict, prevent and treat menstrual health conditions. That's kind of what I'm hearing from listeners this morning that they haven't been able to get the help that they wanted. If we looked at menstrual blood under a telescope, what could it tell us? Do we know?

So, yeah, so menstrual fluid is a really interesting, incredible, but very overlooked source of information about women's health. So it contains blood, but only about 50% of it is blood. It contains the lining of the womb, secretions from the vagina and the cervix, and it even has stem cells in it. So there's so much rich information in there, but studies have only recently started to look at it. What we're doing in our study is looking at DNA methylation,

which is a type of epigenetics. and that's going to hopefully tell us which genes are turned on or off in menstrual fluid. And then we can compare people that have, for example, heavy menstrual bleeding to people that don't have heavy menstrual bleeding to see if there's any kind of epigenetic pattern that might help to identify why people with heavy menstrual bleeding have that symptom and possibly point towards new treatments to prevent it from happening. Is there any age group that are more likely to experience? heavy periods over others? I'm getting a range, I have to say, with our listeners.

Yeah. So there is a range, but our research shows that in general, heavy bleeding tends to increase around the time of perimenopause. So earlier in adolescence, it tends to be that menstrual pain is the more kind of prominent symptom. And then later in life, it's more about the bleeding and that's not you know that's just a trend so it can be very often the opposite way round but yeah that's what we're saying interesting be really interesting to hear some of your findings jemma sharp a professor of epidemiology at the university of exeter dr samporna kundu thank you also for joining us and if you do have particular health concerns please do consult your GP thank you for your messages coming in as well a lot of you struggling with heavy

bleeding over the years. Turning to something completely different. Did you know that mini golf, sometimes called Crazy Golf, it's that putting game with little windmills maybe that you find by the seaside or maybe in an amusement park? Did you know that it has feminist roots?

A playful and playable exhibition, the art of mini golf has just opened at the Battersea Art Centre in London and it's channeling the inclusive, subversive spirit of the game's female founders. Well, we're going to hear more about the game's hidden history. All new to me, I have to say, and the art it has inspired. I'm joined by the curator, Grace Herbert.

Good morning. Morning. Thanks for having me. And also with us, Delane La Ba. Good morning. Hi. Delane is one of the featured artists and was also nominated for the Turner Prize in 2024. It's great to have both of you with us.

Nice to be here. Now, where are you fans of minigolf before starting on this exhibition? Grace? I was. I was a massive fan of minigolf. I'm from Australia. I live in Tasmania, the tiny island down the bottom of Australia in Hobart. And there was a mini golf course in Hobart that was just my favorite place.

As a child growing up, I'd go there all the time with my parents. So I was obsessed. Were you delay? No, there was a little crazy golf thing where we used to go to this place on the beach because I'm in Worthing where I still live near a place called Peter Pan's playground. Well, listen, Peter Pan's playground. Listen, Peter Pan has a patch on you. See how much alliteration I can get in there

because we're going to talk about Delane what you have created. But perhaps first, Grace, I should just or you should give our listeners a synopsis of the origins of the game. This was all new to me. Yeah, it was to me as well when I first started researching

the exhibition but the history of Mini Gopher, or the story goes, that it was, it began at St. Andrew's Link's Golf course in Edinburgh. There was a group of women who would come into town with their husbands on horses and carts were sort of left relegated to the club rooms while their husbands were out playing golf. Swinging a stick was apparently unladylike at the time and also women on the golf

course would have been considered a distraction. So a group of about a hundred women banded together and founded the putting only course. It's called the Himalayas. It's still there to this day. It's just this beautiful sort of undulating green with mini golf holes. And then from there, ladies putting club started cropping up all over the UK. People started incorporating obstacles into the game. The game was briefly called gothstical. And then... Quite like that. Yeah. Then it jumped the ditch headed, headed to the US. And it also has this really amazing sort of history woven into the civil rights movement in the States. So, due to segregation laws, African-American people weren't able to play or be members of golf clubs,

but there were African-American people working at golf clubs as caddies. And so this thing of kind of DIY community-run mini-golf courses started happening all over the States. I think in Harlem at one time they had about 2,000 rooftop mini-golf courses. And ultimately, a mini-golf course in Boston was one of the first public. recreation facilities to be desegregated. So yeah, really... Fascinating, because it has this kitschy, whimsical associations now, perhaps.

But to delve back to where it came from is so interesting. Give us an overview of the exhibition, The Art of Minigolf before I come to Delane about her specific design. Yeah, so the exhibition is a nine-hole, playable, mostly playable mini-golf course. each of the holes has been conceived of and designed by a different woman artist. So as far as an experience goes, you're sort of viewing these artworks, playing,

and you're kind of in conversation with the artists as you're playing the mini-golf course. The mini-golf course is the first hole of the course is by an Australian artist, Indigenous woman named Kaeline Whiskey. She's from Central Australia She's a Yankatjara woman And her work Is about Kanka Kumpa

Or people in Yankajara That means strong women So you'll see Dolly Parton, Cher Tina Turner All pictured there It's a bit of a party artwork So that sets the scene But I want to come

Because there's nine artists Female artists in all Delane what about your work Square Peg Round Hole No exclamation point well there's

the saying and I feel that for myself it's this idea that with identity in particular you all everyone wants to put you in a certain box and so it is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole

and you're not going with that now I believe like instead we all kind of are familiar with a golf ball but you can exchange it for a square ball yeah square balls so we've got square balls just to make it to make it even more difficult to try and make that happen.

There's also video projections, images of mass female figures, embroidering a large yellow cloth, large hand-painted drapes hanging from the ceilings, costume, masks, textiles are a recurring motif in your work. Tell me a little bit about what you want people to take away. Well, the film is, it's got an eye shape in it as well, which is a collage film that's put together.

I work with someone else. I work with someone edits all my films together and helps me with the sound as well. So that's as I've filed because he's actually based in Berlin. And it's, so we have the film, which is quite fantastical, but it's also got a collage element in it, which is a photograph of me as a child running as well.

And then I made a suit, which is a replica of the suit that I was wearing as a child. and the only word I say in the film is no because it's like me saying no to actually wanting to be contained within a book. Which is a wonderful thing for a little girl to be able to say. And also, of course, we think about playful,

which this is as well. You mentioned Kaleen Whiskey, Grace. Miranda July closes the exhibition, I understand. Yeah, so they're the bookends of the exhibition. We start with Kaling Whiskey. People might know Miranda July from a book all fours. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah, Miranda July. So quite a well-known author and filmmaker as well. And, yeah, her artwork, Wave of Fortune, closes out the exhibition. So you sort of put into this giant wave and your ball disappears, comes out the other end. And wherever it lands tells you your fortune, written by Miranda July. Coming back to Delanyga. I mean, how does it feel to have audiences respond to your work?

work in this way. It's somewhat different perhaps to previous works. Well, I'm mainly known for making really large installations, which to me, the people that come in it are always participants, but this is more than, this is more than usual in that way, because it's got, they have to really participate in a sense as well. We're trying to do something. Does everybody swap the round ball for the square bowl? No, they have to use the square ball. I love it. I love it. I love it. I I love it. That's fantastic. If they're going to get the full experience, God, I'm bad enough with the round ball. I don't know what I'd be like with the square ball, but I do totally appreciate the concept. Have you seen the audience reacting, Grace, in our last 30 seconds or so? Yeah. Yeah, I think they're just having a great time. It's really fun. I think it's an exhibition where it's easy to get caught up in the history and every artist has amazing concepts and experiences to bring to the format, but it's easy for me as a curator to forget. People are just having fun and so it's been really nice to see at Battersea over the last week as well. Well, the art of Minigolf runs until the 26th of July at the Battersea Art Centre in London.

And in case you're wondering, yes, you can take the kids. It's intended for adults, but suitable for children over nine years old. Okay, another message on periods. This woman who got in touch says, I'm a teacher. I find it almost impossible to make it through the first two days of my cycle at work due to being unable to have constant access to the bathroom, has led me to have embarrassing episodes and cause me further pain. I now have attendance concern at work because I often find it so debilitating,

I have to take a day off each month. It's frustrating. Despite everything I do, nothing seems to change. I often visit the GP, and I'm met with Don't worry until you want children, which does worry me because I'm 28 and feel the underlying issues which are causing the heavy bleeding are being ignored. Well, hopefully the study that we talked about might shed some light on what the listeners that have been getting in touch this morning have been going through.

Thank you very much for all your messages. Back tomorrow, we'll talk about T20 Cricket World Cup coverage, speaking to England's head coach, Charlotte Edwards, and England player Tilly Cortine Coleman at 18, the youngest member of the squad. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Zandi, happy anniversary.

What are you talking about? Have I missed something? Yes, Zandi, you have. We are over a year into making WhatsApp docs. You didn't even get me a card. Is it really over a year? It is. Think of all the episodes we've done. How to look after our feet, our shoulders, our hips, our teeth. We've explored snoring, cholesterol, the immune system, endometriosis.

All with the help of expert guests. I think it's fair to say we have plundered the world of health and well-being, equipping ourselves and our listeners, with the best information out there on how to look after our minds, our bodies, our souls even. And we're not stopping, are we, Chris? We're most certainly not, Sond. We have a lot of new topics coming up, from tinnitus to acne, crying, male fertility, we are holding steadfast in our mission to sort facts from fiction, debunking wellness myths along the way, and you can find all of our previous episodes of WhatsApp docs in the feed on BBC Sounds. And don't forget to subscribe on BBC Sounds and turn on the notifications so you don't miss any of these upcoming episodes.

The Signal Awards recognize the podcast that define culture, and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations, which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team, and stand out. The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration.